Radical Innovators #17 leading with connection: empowering teams and always learning with UnitedHealthcare’s Stephanie Fehr

In this episode of the Radical Innovators podcast, host Frank Congiu sits down with Stephanie Fehr, chief people officer at UnitedHealthcare, who discusses her career journey, how her company is using AI and what shapes her leadership style.

Stephanie shares her perspective on why leadership is a critical, research-based skill rather than a "soft skill" and how creating the right environment is essential for innovation. The conversation also explores how UnitedHealthcare is navigating AI, particularly by leveraging it to enhance — not replace — human connections and fuel employee development.

Key topics discussed in this episode include:

• leadership as a science: why leadership is the most important skill to develop and how it is rooted in valid, reliable research
• the power of feedback: how UnitedHealthcare introduced a "behavioral language" to provide objective, actionable feedback to employees
• AI as an enabler: using AI to lift administrative burdens from doctors and employees, allowing them to focus on unique human skills like empathy and providing support
• skills-based culture: how AI helps employees identify their strengths and acquire the specific skills needed to achieve their career goals
• humility in learning: why "learners will rule the world" and the importance of being humble enough to learn from anyone in an organization

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Radical Innovators Podcast. I'm your host, Frank Hanju, and for this episode I sit down with Stephanie Fair, Chief People Officer at United Healthcare. Watch as Stephanie discusses how her organization empowers all people to understand their strengths and opportunities, the link between being humble and always learning, and why she thinks AI will actually allow for more human connections and so much more. So let's dive in with Stephanie Fair. All right, Stephanie, great to see you. Welcome to the Radical Innovators Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Great to see you, Frank. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

We get to see each other more in person, it seems like, which I guess is fortunate for me. And I'm looking forward to the next time I'm out in Minneapolis and hopefully having you around the dinner table. You know, you've had a fascinating career journey and one that spanned moving in from tech roles as a CHO, and then of course, like being the CHO of United Healthcare. So with a tech background into healthcare, not the typical background. What originally drew you into healthcare? And I asked this for a number of reasons because everybody thinks tech is the sexy, most cool place to be. Um, I don't think people think that way of healthcare. So what what drew you in?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Thanks, Frank, and thanks for your comments about my career. I feel really fortunate. Um, you know, I spent 18 years at Apple in the center of tech, but I would say, you know, I was in a center of consumer. And so I love the notion of, you know, helping consumers experience something exciting, better, simpler, easier. And then when I got the call for United, you know, healthcare is tech. I mean, when you think about what's going on in healthcare right now, it's very much an extension of tech, and tech is a huge part of what we do here at United. And I, similar to you, actually, was going through a pretty challenging time with my dad at the time. He had been diagnosed with MS and was suffering mightily and navigating the healthcare system, which was, you know, really hard and somewhat discouraging. So when I got the call, and I think we all do this, when you get a call, you think, what is the draw? Why would I move from something that's so great, like Apple? And for me, it was mission and what they were doing here. And really, their mission is, you know, making the healthcare system work better for everyone. And I said, I want to be a part of that. And, you know, it came from a really personal place. And since then, you know, there are lots and lots of examples of why I made the I'm glad I made the decision. But I will forever be grateful for my experience at Apple. I mean, Apple is an incredible place and continues to be. So very feel very blessed and fortunate.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

So you've spoken a lot about leadership today. I think about some of the things that you said around needing to continue at a rapid velocity more than ever, this importance of a learning mindset. What are some of the tangible differences you've seen? Because I think that's something you would assume exists in those high-tech cultures between leaders there and then um, you know, what you see today, whether it's around adaptability, performance, innovation. Just curious what you're what you're seeing there in terms of the traits. Not, and then this doesn't have to be specific to UHC, but just in general as well from your seat.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Thank you for the question. It's a great one and something I've reflected on a lot. And, you know, it's funny, leadership for me has always been a really big interest area of mine, but it's really based in research. And people talk about leadership as soft skills, and that's always bothered me because I feel like leadership is probably the most important skill that, you know, we can develop and enrich and emphasize as being important. And leaders, no matter the industry, make all the difference because the business is about people. And that's why I got into HR is you know, how do you make sure that the people who really drive the success of the business or the failure of the business are taken care of? And when I say that, it's it's less paternalistic and more about how do you give people what they need to soar, to use their gifts, to really self-actualize in many ways. And the great news about learning, and I when I was early in my career, and I won't go deep into this, but when I was early in my career, I met Bob Eikinger and Mike Lombardo, who were paired. And Mike led the Center for Creative Leadership in Colorado Springs. And what was great about the research is it was all reliable, all valid, was rooted in this notion of creating the right environment so people can, you know, create success for themselves, but also for the company. And that's constant across, you know, United and Apple. But what's really interesting, and this is a learning for myself that I'll share quite humbly, is when I left Apple, having spent 18 years there, I thought, gosh, you know, what could be better than this? And I came here, and my first reaction was, you know, gosh, the pace is slower, a lot more structure, felt like, you know, we could do things much more quickly. And that first year of my tenure here was really about learning about healthcare in the industry. But what I didn't appreciate was the sensitivity around being in a regulated industry, working with people's health, working with people's lives, how important that can be. And so lots of good reasons for the differences. But what isn't different is we innovate here just like we innovated at Apple, and it's all about the environment that a leader creates. And when you think about we spend most of our time at work, you want to work for people who create environments where you can be your best, where you can experiment, you can make mistakes, you can learn from them. And that's the same. You know, that's consistent. And we do that here and we emphasize the importance of environment. And when you think about, you know, being in a in a job situation, which is very connected to your livelihood, there are lots of risks associated with experimentation and making mistakes, but it's the only way you can innovate, learn from them and bounce back and do it better. And that's the key for me. That's so that has to be consistent.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Taking that fail-fast mindset into an organization, maybe that um otherwise might have not historically embraced it. But, you know, one of the things you said before, too, is there's so many other organizations and industries that are thinking of themselves as tech first and then a service, right? And you hear this a lot in the financial services industry that we are not a tech company that provides financial services support. So yeah, great to hear that you're thinking of that way. You know, you've talked in other interviews around the point around earlier in your career you played a key role in scaling leadership development at Apple. What are some of the principles that you experienced that carried over given different cultures? I think, right, you're you mentioned the same intent, though, of becoming a tech-enabled or tech focused organization. But as you think about applying those to the sort of scale and complexity of a global healthcare system, how has that been different?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

I'm going to start with what's said the same, and then I'll talk about what's different. But, you know, I can't take credit for the prioritization of leadership at Apple. I mean, that was Steve, and you know, Steve was very mindful of the fact that leaders play this incredible role, especially when you're thinking about creating an environment where people can innovate and they do and they continue to do that. And when I joined Apple, I mean, we were 7,000 people, so it's a very different company today than it was then. But he had the the he had the foresight to say, you know, if someone is going to sit in a position of leadership, it's a privilege, but it's also it also requires skills. So we took people through what I call leadership boot camp there. And if you had the privilege to lead and you held a leadership role, we talked about the skills required to do that. And, you know, one of the things that I think is true, no matter where you are in life, whether you're working for a corporation, a nonprofit, whether you're working with your personal relationships, human beings want to be cared for, they want to be supported. And that's that's for me the fundamental premise of leadership, but they also want to be challenged and they also want to give the being given the opportunity to stretch. So when I came here, we have we were talking about this notion of feedback as being the lifeblood of development, which is something we talked about at Apple a lot. And you know, Minnesota, for what it's worth, is a very kind um culture. And people are a little bit reluctant to give people direct feedback at times, and they're euphemistic and they tend to be very kind. And sometimes, you know, euphemism can you can lose the message.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

It's on your sidewalks, if I recall right. Be kind, I think I've seen that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

It is. And it's such a nice trait, and you don't want to lose that. But feedback is kindness, right? Feedback, letting people know how they're doing, both you know, what they're doing well and what they need to improve upon is kindness. And so building a skill that gives people the courage to give direct feedback was something that we started with here. And that would, that had been a hallmark of Apple as well. And, you know, I love the fact that we've given people here at United a behavioral language to talk about strengths and opportunities because it's very objective, it's not personal. And no matter who you are, you have strengths and opportunities. And so we've encouraged our leaders to start with this notion of you have a responsibility to make sure that people understand their strengths and opportunities. And the great news, and this is this is something I talk about all the time because it's probably the most hopeful news in the leadership research, is everyone can learn. You can be really poor at giving someone feedback, but you can learn to do it really well. And that goes for all, you know, all behaviors within the under the leadership umbrella. And it's incredibly helpful. So, what I say to people is self-awareness is the hallmark of great leadership. Understand what you're good at, understand what you're not so good at, and work towards making those things better and really emphasizing your strengths as well. So, anyway, um, that was different here, going back to your question, because I think that people just didn't have the language, frankly. And how do you give somebody feedback that's fair, objective, and actionable? It has to be behavioral. So that's where we started.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Radically's podcast. Obviously, the podcast was born out of finding some of the greatest innovations that are happening in the most world-class top organizations. I'm curious, uh, you knew AI question was coming at some point. If you think about, I go back to the size and the scale and the complexity, because I think there's a number of things that you probably have to deal with other than some of these other organizations that will come out and they'll talk about these amazing things that they're doing to leverage AI. And some of those are probably great to hear. And then you say, wow, this would be challenging for us to do and bring this in. I'm curious how you're approaching AI as an enabler for things like career mobility, employee assistance, managing to keep the human-the-loop model for decision making and productivity. What does that look like inside your organization? And how do you make sure that it's something you're trying to say yes to more than no? Because I often, a lot of times when I talk to the big organizations, they say it's tough. We have to say no to most things because of how many different constraints there are, and we can't introduce um just countless systems.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

It's a great question. And there isn't a meeting I'm in that we don't talk about AI these days. And you know, it's funny from a cultural perspective. I think AI can be scary to some people because you hear about jobs going away and things like that. But what we're learning here is quite the opposite. AI is a tool to enhance not only the consumer experience, but also the employee experience. And what I what I mean by that is there's a lot of rote work that can be done much more effectively, more accurately, and at scale, and afford employees to do the work that only they can do, which is the human work. And when you think about dealing with somebody in a health crisis, I mean, you want people to take time to use their human skills, and AI won't afford us to do that. So we see that in the consumer realm, um, especially with our call centers and claims and things like that. But when you talk about employees, what's super exciting to me and makes me tiny bit envious that I'm my at this stage of my career, because I wish that they had this had this when I started, and this is the notion of how do you help people not only understand their gifts and their interests, but navigate these huge companies to find the right path for you. And the great news is there's not one right path, right? I mean, people have lots of requisite skills and they can go many, many places. And that's that keeps engagement high, keeps people interested in what they're doing. So this notion of learning is so important. It always has been. But, you know, I remember Mike Lombardo said at one point, learners will rule the world. And I'm a firm believer of that. I think, you know, if you have the learning traits and the traits of a learner, you know, you can do all kinds of things and very unique things and continue to move and learn. So AI, from a career perspective, and super exciting. Someone can identify their skills. We're a skills-based culture. So we ask people, identify the skills that you have, but then identify the skills that you need to achieve your dreams. And we're using AI to do that in a lot of our people systems. And we're fortunate enough to have invested quite a bit of capital starting three years ago. And now, if you're an employee at United, you can input your skills, you can talk about where you want to go, and AI will help you get there through skills acquisitions. So we have a big learning system as well that people can access. So, this notion of you know really understanding the possibilities is brought to life through these systems and through AI.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

You want to go back to one thing you said because it continues to come up in conversations around reinforcing that employees need to think about what are the things that are unique to what only an individual can do. And then you go back and you hear two years ago, um, OpenAI released uh a study that doctors were less empathetic than AI. So you so you look at that and you say, okay, well, that's that's interesting. But then you see more recently, I think there was a study that might have come out. I can't recall if it was from Anthropic or another organization, which was that AI is too complementary of individuals. And so it's reinforcing that everything they do is right. So you start to balance this in. And I'm curious, I mean, these are two just uh disparate data points, but put out by reputable organizations that are leaders of enterprise AI adoption. Where do you see the good and the bad in these two? Because I think if there's we're like we're telling people that focus on what you can only uniquely do, but that's one extreme example of you'd say, wow, AI can have a better bedside manner than a doctor. Conversely, like if it's telling you everything you do is right and good, where are you learning and where you where where are you missing out on that critical feedback that we talked about a few minutes ago?

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Yeah, it's such a good question. And and it's funny, I think AI tends to frame things and articulate things in the best way possible using the human language. And it's funny, I'll write an email and then I'll have AI rewrite it. And it's like it's usually better than what I wrote. I was an English major, which is humbling, but you know, they tend to be more succinct. And I think sometimes when you think about how a message is delivered, it can affect how you receive it and you know it can make it maybe feel kinder. I don't know. But I don't know that I believe this premise that doctors are less empathetic. I think doctors tend to be very busy. And I, you know, it's funny when we when we talk about a doctor's typical day, too much of it is about administration, too much about it about it is, you know, documenting and filling out forms. And AI is kind of taking that away and lifting a doctor's, you know, kind of duty, you know, inventory of duties up. So when I think about that, I think about cause and effect, and I'm hopeful that doctors will be able to connect with patients, spend more time with patients because, you know, AI is helping them and enabling them in different ways. The other thing that I go back to, Frank, and this is this is so funny because I'm so drawn to this work around knowing people and taking the time to know people, because I think people are so busy these days, we don't slow down enough to really listen. How to know a person is a book I'm reading and have read and continue to study, because that research is so interesting to me because what it says is, yeah, I mean, you get to know people on a really surface level, cursory interactions. But what you're missing is the richness of really understanding people's differences, really understanding what motivates people, really understanding who someone is. And I honestly think that can be applied to any interaction in the medical industry, any other, any any industry. So for me, AI could enable us to slow down and really have quality interactions with people that could propel all kinds of things and really good innovations in the future.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Well, I remember you sharing that book um at a recent CHR summit that we were at together, and I did buy it. Now I'm not gonna lie and tell you that I've read the whole thing, but I've started.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

It's on audio.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

No, I will take it on my next flight. It's unfortunately among a stack of books that I have the intent of reading, but now that you've said it again, it's um it's going to the top of the list.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

So now I have that same disease about too many books to read. But I will say, I mean, it's for me, it it rings true for me. I mean, I'll I'll be I'm the first one to say my my days are so full that I I try to use shorthand sometimes in relationships, and I don't know that that's the answer.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Well, I love your um admitting to sometimes that the whatever the LLM is that you're leveraging um creates a better email. One tip to people listening, just make sure you delete the prompt because uh someone sent me an email a few weeks ago and it told them how to communicate based on my communication style, and that was there, and then it was the message.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

So that's funny. That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

You're rewriting emails. I just want to like make sure it's that obvious.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

So what what are some of the tools or what are some of the um either things you're leveraging at a manager level to help drive and create an environment where people can take advantage of the resources made available?

SPEAKER_01 17:35

We have all kinds of examples around how we've done this, and I can also tell you we've had a lot of learning. And you know, some of these really um basic premises apply to how we implement AI. And I'll give you an example. So when we think about the consumer experience, like when you interface with us, there are some things that you want to just do quickly, like get your new ID card, and those things you don't really need to talk to a human being. So the AI becomes something very handy in that situation. But when you think about the employee who's done that work for decades, frankly, and all of a sudden they're being asked to upskill, it can be scary. So we have done a lot of change management that underpins these big shifts in jobs. So when you turn AI on, I think you probably know it happens overnight, right? And so those kind of requirements or routine duties go away, and suddenly employees are being asked to do all kinds of more complex things. So we believe that we have a responsibility to foreshadow that, and we do that. So when we know that a job family is going to shift and change, and we'll always need human beings, that's never going to change, but the jobs will look different, and some would argue be much more fulfilling. We will foreshadow that two three years out. And so we've done that with our consumer population. And what we've said is, you know, we are going to create more cost efficiency, a better consumer experience. So by applying AI in your work processes, we've involved them because who knows better the work processes and the people doing the jobs. So we've involved them, the incumbents. And then as we move towards the implementation of AI, which can sometimes take two, three years, like I said, we are affording them opportunities to upskill. We're providing training, we're providing clarity around the types of skills that will be important, giving them time to do that too, because Lord knows you've got to have some time to be able to learn. So all those things are part of a change management process. And, you know, it's not, it's not always easy to let people know that their jobs are going to change. So we also offer choice. And I think choice is it's a really important piece in life. And when you think about doing something for, you know, 10, 20, 30 years, and someone tells you it's going to change, you may not want to engage in learning and you may be close to, you know, exiting for retirement or whatever that is. So we've afforded people not only the foreshadowing of the change, given them the tools to upskill if they need to, but we've also given them get given them options around how to exit the organization if they want to. Now, you know, let's be real. There are there are certainly people who exit because they can't upskill, because they frankly aren't interested in doing that. So they may go a completely different direction. But it gives people transparent understanding of what's happening, why it's happening, and then gives them the opportunity to live in a new world that requires different skills and it it affords them the opportunity to develop those skills. So, you know, it's it's not perfect, but that change management that underpins any kind of an AI implementation is critical. It's super critical. And being transparent and honest with people is critical because, you know, they'll they'll find out eventually, and if you don't give them the lead time, they're not able to prepare.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah. Well, you moved into a few things here, and I think the one thing that's it's leading me to is creating a culture that allows for this, right? Because it's one thing to provide the tools, it's another to provide some awareness of, hey, like you may not be a fit for the future and having that um transparency, which is very well received and respected from employees. But if I think about culture within your organization, it's it's something that's harder to measure. You can tell if your mobility tools are working, how many people are adopting the tools, how many hours are spending leveraging them, um, how many people have moved from one role to the next. Culture is a lot harder to measure, right? You can maybe you can infer something from glass door scores. I'm curious, what are you doing to manage this beyond looking at annual engagement surveys and how you're really looking at leadership effectiveness as you're leading through? Because I know you mentioned change, but this is transformation at a rapid clip in every organization's experience. And this, where I'm starting to hear more and more of CHROs talk about this isn't change fatigue, this is transformation fatigue.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Yeah, I know. It's I've not not heard it described that way, but it's right. That's exactly right. You have culture by default or design. That's one of my favorite things, and I I totally agree. So we've actually been quite intentional about the culture. And we have enjoyed a very positive and strong culture for many years. I've been here eight, and you know, it's a values-based culture, and it comes to life in all kinds of ways. What's fascinating to me is you can't not talk about culture on a regular basis. So we have actually launched a culture reignition campaign. So every single leader in our organization will go through a cultural experience. And that started just a couple weeks ago. We launched our first session with our most senior leaders. And what's so interesting to me and reassuring and exciting is that every leader embraced, engaged, came, you know, shared, talked about the importance of culture because it's kind of the soil, right? If you're going to do something amazing, you've got to have great soil. And so that that is something we're investing in. In parallel to that, we're also making sure that our leaders are equipped to lead, which we've talked about. And then thirdly, we're talking about our values in a really authentic way because we have lots of, we're huge, 400,000 employees. So we have lots of different contexts where this culture comes to life. So we want our leaders to have explicit conversations about what's working, what's not working, and have those team conversations. So we're giving leaders tools to have those conversations. And, you know, we have the traditional engagement surveys, but to your point, I'm not sure that, you know, you always hear the truth in those. So we're doing a lot of pulse surveys, which, you know, you might walk by a kiosk as you're going to your next meeting and it has a QR code. You can actually scan it and tell people in that moment how you're feeling or how you feel about something. And it's given us a window into our culture that we haven't had before because it's real time. And it also helps us understand how things are landing.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

It's kind of leading me into another thought, um, just because with five generations in today's workforce and an aging demographic, it hits on that point you made around look, some people aren't going to want to be part of the journey. And this may be an opportunity to pivot and think about something else in their career. But how are your leaders using a segmented real-time insights to influence stability, engagement, retention across all these diverse groups? Because you mentioned 400,000 employees. I imagine you have a pretty uh good span across the five generations in the workforce.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

We do, yeah, we do. And this leader connection is really critical. We talk about that all the time. But just yesterday, we had our um head of kind of safety um talk with us about how they're using pulse to understand how people are feeling in the in the workplace. And what was really interesting is we have teams that are doing exactly the same things, Frank. I mean, identical things. And one can be incredibly engaged, feeling safe, to take risks, report things that need to be addressed. And a team that's doing the very same thing can be completely polar and not they don't feel safe. So what we're doing right now, which I think is part of mentoring, is we're kind of combining or pairing up teams who one team can be incredibly engaged, one team can be challenged, and asking them to work together to identify ways to help each other and learn from each other. We don't want to be punitive around the teams that are struggling because there may be very good reasons that they're struggling, but we want to make sure that we acknowledge the fact that something's not right because we look at the data, but then this notion of partnership around what people are doing that are seeing great engagement scores, you know, I think that's that's where the magic happens. It's helping each other.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

You know, you hit you hit on something that I was about to go to next, which is uh Straddle's sort of this mentoring, partnering. But I think, you know, it's clear that you've invested in the developing of the next generation of leaders. You talked about that several times here. What's one piece of career advice you've given to emerging talent, whether it's, I don't know, the last three months, last six months, that you believe is essential for people to succeed in today's really um I mentioned transformation fatigue, but in this fast changing world? What would there be, is there any one piece of advice that um listeners should be thinking about?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Yeah, absolutely. And it correlates to learning. Um, and this is this notion of being humble. And, you know, we have people who have been here for 30 years and a month, and to your point, many, many different generations, but you know, learners are humble and they know no matter what the context, what the setting, you know, you can learn from somebody, no matter where they are in the higher hierarchy. I just met with um a hundred of our of college students from my alma mater last week, and it was really fun because one of the things I said is look, I'm I'm 61 years old. Um, I have had lots of experiences and I've been blessed with lots of opportunities. But what I do know is that I I I know less about some things than our most junior employees who are coming into the workplace. And so I do a lot of listening. I walk into a room and I think, what am I gonna learn today in this meeting? And that's you know, that's humility. Hopefully, I practice it and that's my goal anyway. Um, but I just think this notion of being humble is so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Given this is an HR podcast, let the record show I did not ask about your age and you voluntarily threw that out there.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

So well, it's one of those things I'm probably most proud of is the fact that I have a lot of experience, but I have a lot of wisdom, I'd like to think, because of it. And I want to share that. So I think with age comes wisdom and a responsibility to share it.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

All right. Well, now I'm gonna move into some of the really more challenging questions. These are things that people often struggle with. Um we're gonna give it a shot. Nice dinner out or backyard barbecue with family and friends.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

So I'm always like, it depends. Um, but you know what? I really like a backyard barbecue with friends. That's always fun.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Ski trip or beach vacation?

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Oh, uh definitely a beach vacation for me. Um, I love skiing, but um sometimes it's a lot of work. So nice to sit on a beach with a good book.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Is a hot dog a sandwich?

SPEAKER_01 28:08

I I wouldn't think of it as a sandwich, no, but it's certainly yummy.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

All right. That's okay. Um, are you a morning person or a night owl?

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Definitely morning person, always have been.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Yeah, and and how do you start your morning then? Is it water first or coffee first?

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Oh, coffee for sure. I know it's supposed to be water. I've read all the research, but I think coffee's my go-to.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah, I know. I I tried really hard to drink a bunch of water this morning, and it was like, it's it's coffee time. I know, it's hard. Yes. Uh, you made one book recommendation.

unknown 28:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

So one other book that um has either changed or helped guide your leadership.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Uh, The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer, no question. Um, and his I've read that book like three times, and his view of the world, I believe, I don't want to speak for him, but I think the book does, is so much of what who we are is unsaid. It's in our head. And how do you really get in touch with your inner voice? And I work so hard to do that because what you're telling yourself manifests in all kinds of ways. And I think he's masterful at helping people really listen to their inner voice, which is sometimes unheard.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

All right, last one red or white wine.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

How white. I know it's so fun. It's I have friends who like love red wine, and I start to love it, but I really enjoy my Chablis.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Perfect. See, that was also an intake question for the next dinner you join. I will know to make sure what to have for you.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

So that sounds good. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Well, Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us today. Loved everything you were able to share, and I'm looking forward to seeing you again in person sometime soon.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

I appreciate it, Frank. Thank you so much for having me.