Who Speaks for Arbitration? Part 2: In discussion with Artem Doudko FCIArb and Peter Ashford

In Part 2 of this conversation, Byfield Founder Gus Sellitto continues the discussion with Peter Ashford, Chair of London Arbitration Week and independent arbitrator, and Artem Doudko, partner in Osborne Clarke’s Dispute Resolution practice.

Building on Who Speaks for Arbitration? — Byfield’s strategic report — they explore how arbitration is understood beyond the legal sphere, and the role the media plays in shaping that perception.

The conversation looks at how international arbitration is covered by major publications such as the Financial Times, The Times, Reuters and Bloomberg, and considers how the industry can further strengthen understanding of the complex, high-value issues arbitration helps to resolve. They discuss the opportunity for clearer, more consistent communication — and who is best placed to lead that narrative.

They also examine the role of industry platforms such as London Arbitration Week (LAW) and London International Disputes Week (LIDW), and what they set out to achieve in elevating the profile of disputes and arbitration globally.

Finally, the discussion turns to the future pipeline of talent — considering how arbitration can be more effectively introduced to students, trainees and those at the start of their legal careers.

A clear message emerges: arbitration plays a vital role in global business, and there is a real opportunity to tell that story more clearly — across media, markets and the next generation.

Thank you for listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello and welcome to Matter of Reputation. I'm Gus Salito, founder of Bifield, and very uh pleased that we have a special episode today where we'll be talking about a new piece of thought leadership published by Byfield called Who Speaks for Arbitration? I'm delighted to be joined by two leading figures in the arbitration community to discuss this very topic. Firstly, Peter Ashwood, an international arbitrator, mediator, and consultant, and chair of London Arbitration Week. Peter spent nearly 25 years leading arbitration and disputes practices at top law firms and is a leading figure in this field. And Artem Dudko, a partner in the international disputes team at Osborne Clark, specialising in international arbitration. Artum acts as both a counsel and arbitrator and is widely recognised as one of the leading practitioners in the London arbitration market. So just quoting directly from our report, one of our contributors said there needs to be a leadership voice explaining arbitration to the public, who, and sometimes the press as well, uh including those who don't understand it. Otherwise, the risk is there is a perception that arbitrators are people who earn a lot on fly first class divorced from the good they they do. How if if we look at some of the media that's interested in international arbitration, there is a very specialist trade media uh which talks more about some of the technical aspects, including uh the practitioners, etc. Who are involved in international arbitration? But if we start to think more mainstream media, the Financial Times, the Times, some of the international titles, Reuters, Bloomberg, how do you think international arbitration and arbitration is seen by those titles? And what could be done to improve understanding uh for the very real business issues that arbitration deals with? And who should that leadership voice be?

SPEAKER_02 2:23

I mean, we we have our our own arbitration press, and uh there's no point preaching to the converted, anybody reading the arbitration press knows about arbitration, we don't need to explain it to them. But uh but I think to take the Financial Times or whatever as an example, the business, I I think there is a role um to do that, um, and both by articles in that to uh demystify what it's all about. Um, but there's also a role in in talking to local chambers of commerce. There's a role for our our colleagues in in commercial departments of law firms when they're drafting the contracts to to give the clients a proper informed choice about do they want litigation or do they want uh arbitration and how the arbitration might work. And certainly I've spent many, many hours in in different law firms explaining um, you know, uh, how to draft a proper arbitration agreement, um, none of which seems to always be fully absorbed, should we say politely. Um, and they still they still reach for the precedent that that is um uh, in my view, sometimes inadequate. But we we just need to demystify it. Um I think the Financial Times and others probably regard it as a rather niche practice that that doesn't affect business, um, whereas it does. I mean it the proportion of international trade that's governed by arbitration is enormous. I haven't got the data to hand, but it's a it's a very significant proportion. And um we we need to explain uh that it it's a very viable um, I think I said in the in the report, second choice for everyone. Most most uh counterparties to a contract are very happy to litigate in their national courts. Um but but as an Englishman, do I want to um go for litigation in South Korea uh when I don't speak the language? I'd have to engage different lawyers, I'd have to do all sorts of things. And uh there'll be a process which I've no no confidence that may be fair and impartial and not back the South Korean party over the the English party. So there's a much mistrust uh and non-level playing field of litigating in one of the countries of the counterparties to the contract. Um whereas um arbitration deals with that and it says, fine, um, your English and your South Korean will have an arbitration in in Paris or Geneva or Singapore or wherever it may be. Um so it's sort of fairly neutral territory. It's like it's like football finals, you know, playing being played in a in a neutral venue. That's that's sort of leveling up the playing field. So um who to get that message out, I think it is a job not just for one industry voice, but I think many industry voices um from our our commercial colleagues to chambers of commerce to to anybody else, uh, whether it's the mainstream press or anything else. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 5:31

I I th I think uh I mean this is a complex question. I I um I definitely with Peter's last comment that this is a job for many voices, but I think within the arbitration community we do have many voices. We have leading practitioners, both council and arbitrators, we have various arbitral institutions, we've uh got various uh arbitration-related uh events, uh such as uh London Arbitration Week, Paris Arbitration Week, the list goes on. We've got London International Disputes Week. Uh I mean there are many, many events and that that last days, there are some shorter events all, but there's there's a lot of people talking about it. It's it's how do we get the mainstream press interested? And I think for that we need to make it more relevant to the business community rather than looking at it through the Prisma Us arbitration community. It's not an easy thing to do. It's it's quite quite tricky. But I think if we every time we talk about arbitration, if we think about it from a from a user's perspective or from a business perspective, uh in the comments that we make, I think that would would help to get mainstream media interested. But it's a job for many people, not not a single or a small group of single person or a small group of people. I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

To add to that, I I I come back to my my my central theme, I suppose, which is um, you know, we need to get our own house in order. And I and I think it if if we could say for the majority of disputes, uh we can deal with them in um six months for under 100,000 pounds of of costs, for example, um, and uh we we'd find a way to do something quick and dirty, as I call it, which is um, you know, it may not be perfect justice, but it's something. Uh and I was very struck, and I still remain struck by a comment uh I had when I was in the offices of a client of FTSE 100, I think it was, maybe 250. Um uh and um I I was sitting in one of their meeting rooms with a glass wall, and the finance director walked past and saw me sitting there and recognized me and came in and said, Peter, um what are you here for? And I said, I'm I'm here for for this matter. Um and he said, Oh, yes, I know of that. Uh, do I need to make a provision? And I said, No, I don't think you do. And that's all he wanted to know, and he left the room. Uh so many, most businesses, many businesses, it's not a bet the company case. It's we can survive win or lose in this. We we just need to know where we stand so we can get on with our lives. We can either make a provision, we can pay it, or you know, we get money in, or whatever it may be. Uh, and they they need to do that. And I think we need to get away from you know, a a two or even three-year process is perfectly acceptable. Um, it it is right for some cases, but there's an awful lot of other cases that we can do far more quickly, far more cheaply, if we just uh focused on what the real issues are in the case, which uh the sophisticated tribunal can identify quitty, pretty early doors, what's gonna be important in this case? Can we resolve it? Can we deal with it? Um and uh then I think we would have a great story to stick in the FT that that don't have you, don't go to court, which is gonna take you years, uh, and you get stuck in an appellate process that goes on for more years. Have arbitration that gives you one final decision which you can probably live with, win or lose, um, and that that's a far more attractive sale.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

And I think some case studies uh uh uh they could be anonymized as well from the users of arbitration and you know, bet the farm uh arbitration or or much smaller, uh small businesses who do use arbitration as well. I think those uh businesses and individuals speaking up for the benefits of arbitration could be really, really helpful. And I do think some of the business chambers of commerce uh from a UK and international perspective could play a really key role in that. So that's something that we can certainly pick up as we keep discussing this fascinating theme.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

A big shout out to to, I'm sure, friends of Artum's as well, um Ian Quirk and Guy Pendled in Pink DR, their latest um uh arbitration offering, uh, which is uh quick and dirty, um and you know is is remarkably cheap at the bottom end. I mean that that that this is somewhere between retail arbitrations and and small business ones, you know. I think is uh but I think I'm sure they would do bigger ones as well. Um but um you know that sort of initiative I think is is really good for uh the community.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

I agree, and and there are many small business supplements in the national newspapers, but also from a sector perspective as well. Uh, and I think there are all kinds of angles that you could look to to to start talking to to some of those publications. We mentioned London Arbitration Week and London International Disputes Week, two major uh forums on the international stage for international dispute resolution. Uh Peter, let's start with London Arbitration Week. How how do you see London Arbitration Week and what you're doing sort of furthering some of the issues we've discussed today?

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Well, well, I hope um we at least prompt some debate within the community. Uh, and our focus this year for the December 26th conference is on really listening to the users and and and helping to redesign the arbitration for the future so that it is fit for purpose and it can be um more actively sold to the business community. Um this is a very interesting initiative under Toby Landau um for um for doing that, uh, for for quick and um I think he used the word brutal um case management to um to try and drive cases through um and and get expeditious results, uh, which will need uh arbitrators to um some of them at least to to learn new skills. Um uh so that may be painful for some of them, but I think very refreshing for those of us who are willing to grasp the nettle at an early stage. So I think we we we have a role, but we have to remember the audience we're teaching we're speaking to, which is largely the converted. Otherwise, they wouldn't be coming to an arbitration conference um or disputes week, um, which runs a very good arbitration day as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

How about London International Disputes Week?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Well, we we're coming up to the seventh iteration, which will be in the first week of June 2026. Uh, the program is pretty much online. We've got, I mean, it's London's National Disputes Week is a is a broader event looking at all the different dispute resolution mechanisms, including arbitration. But for arbitration, we've got start the week with the International Arbitration Day, which the program is up on the website. We then have um, I think this year, close to, if not more, than a hundred events related to arbitration during the remainder of the week, focusing on everything from procedure to enforcement to quantum to arbitrator appointments and all other different issues in between. I think what is where it's good as well is that LIDW attracts a very large international gathering. Last year we had uh I think people from close to 100 jurisdictions attend um uh attend the week. So we're hoping for for similar attendance uh this year. So it's international lawyers. Um we focusing on in-house community as well, and and uh they're an important part of the attendees. So we are trying to speak to those outside of the arbitration community, but also with members of the arbitration community as well being part of the discussion as always.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Thank you, and I'm I'm looking uh forward to to both of those events. I I do want to come back to education and and the sort of the visibility of arbitration when aspiring lawyers are going through university and thinking about a training contract. Uh, how can anything more be done in relation to promoting arbitration and what it is and and how it works at that early stage, or is enough already being done?

SPEAKER_02 14:03

I I've no idea what what's taught at the the the basic level, if you like, but um I I'll put a huge shout out uh for um the various mooting competitions, and in particular one that I'm involved in uh is the Vismoot, um which had something like 400, just under 400 uh universities um represented in Vienna in the week before Easter, and it's always that week, um, when um students from all over the globe uh have to argue a case in English um but involving primarily the CISG, the Convention for the International Sale of Goods, um uh and uh they they are constantly amaze me with their talent and thirst for knowledge about matters arbitration. Uh there's invariably a couple of procedural issues and a couple of merits issues in in the problem that they have to do. Um and I've been running for 11 years now a practice session uh for that, um, called now called the London Tremut, um, which Artum has been good enough to judge many times at. Um so uh that that that I think is an excellent way of getting people interested and aware of arbitration. There's also the Jessip and a number of other uh very, very fine um uh competitions that are run. But I I think that uh when you see that up close and personal, which I've I certainly do, it's um uh it's a testament to to how successful actually we have been in in getting arbitration fully and properly understood. Um and I was at I didn't go to Paris because it's too big and too many people, um, but I did go to Hamburg and um you know the Boussarays Law School there largely and and just being around the students, they're obviously hugely enthusiastic about it. So um we we haven't got quite that enthusiasm in the English universities, but um you know we we are getting there, and we we made a very big point that the universities should be involved in London Arbitration Week, and um both the um Kings and LSE and Queen Mary and Durham, slightly slightly strangely, but nevertheless Durham um were involved in London Arbitration Week. And um, you know, I think the more that we can access um the student population, the better. Um so I think you know all is not lost, and um we are getting there. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Now I was I was just going to actually uh congratulate Peter because he does a lot on this. I mean, with the London Premute, the London Vispremoot, which has been running for many years, and Peter is the central person in organizing that, and that takes a lot of time and effort. So I think explaining arbitration to the next generations is really important for all of us, and and Peter does more than his fair share. So thank you, Peter, for doing that. I mean, it's it's it's it's a really great initiative. And I think actually sort of these mooting competitions, the VIS moot, as we mentioned, there's a couple of others, that's a great uh opportunity for students to get involved in arbitration to find out more about it. Um, I don't know if arbitration makes a greater presence now in syllabuses at university where where it's possible to study it. Uh, I know there are some very good arbitration schools for master's uh degree programs at some universities, so that's great. And then there is also the ecosystem of various uh junior organizations with various arbitral institutions that also are involved in the program for the more junior members of the of the arbitration community. So I think there is a lot going on, definitely a lot more than was before, but as always, and with everything we can we can do more. And I mean, Peter mentioned the interest from UK universities. I think that would be a really good thing to focus on and to try to see if we can get as much excitement from more UK universities in arbitration and meeting competitions as you see from from those who are already involved and are aware of it. And I think once you do get involved, you you become a lifelong member. I've seen that many, many times. That those who first find out about arbitration by participating in meeting competition then become involved as a coach and then become arbitrators and then become real arbitration counsel and then real arbitrators uh later on in their career. So it's it's a great start, but let's do more.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

And hopefully they will become uh ambassadors for arbitration and will be able to speak up for international arbitration as their careers develop. Uh on that note, the the intention with this report was very much to start a conversation about who speaks up for international arbitration and arbitration, how could it be how can the how can the great benefits that arbitration brings to the business and wider community be better explained and better understood? And we hope to really continue this conversation and keep developing it. So just to conclude, and thank you very much for joining us today, uh, Peter, what would you like to see happen over the next two years in um bettering the way its arbitration is understood?

SPEAKER_02 19:23

I'm afraid I'm going to repeat myself and say that I think if if we get our house in order properly and are able to offer users a um a more expedited and cheaper way of resolving their disputes, uh then that will be by a more active and uh well-informed tribunal who's actually fully read the papers, fully discussed it with themselves, amongst themselves before the first procedural conference, and tells the parties, you know, we've seen this, we're in we're interested in this. Have you thought about doing this to resolve it or most of it in this issue? Um and certainly when I preside, that that's that's very much my style. I like to get my tribunal together. I like to explore with them, you know, what can we tell the parties that we've learnt from what they've got, uh, what we've seen so far. Stressing that we haven't seen everything, that we don't know the case as well as they do. They're the council who've lived with it for for months or years. Um, but but we it we think it behoves us to give a an indication of what we're interested in and what we think might be determinative, uh, and then that we can we can discuss ways in which we might address some of those issues early and cheaply. Uh and I think that that's that's what I'd like to see emerge as a um uh a bit of soft law, if you like, effectively, or something, uh guidance or something um that would encourage that uh and would be promoting arbitration uh far more widely.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Well, I think end users are key, as I think we've all discussed. And Gus, I actually like the point that you made during this discussion about finding some positive examples from end users that have been involved in arbitration, get them to tell their stories. I think that will be really impactful to those from that haven't heard about arbitration. So I think that would be a really interesting way of seeing this project develop, is finding end users who had positive experience of arbitration to talk about those experiences to the wider business world.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Martin and Peter, fascinating uh discussion. Thank you so much for your insights. I very much look forward to continuing this debate and discussion and to further promoting the important role that arbitration plays on the national and international stage. Uh, you've been listening to a matter of reputation, Byfield's dedicated podcast for the Disputes community. Thank you.