Romance, Some-mance, or No-mance?

Welcome to the Book Dragon Banter Podcast! In this episode, our hosts dive into the complexities of romance within fantasy literature. Covering everything from the distinct definitions of romance, some-mance, and no-mance, they delve into how these elements influence storylines and reader engagement. From discussing mainstream hits like 'ACOTAR' and 'Fourth Wing' to exploring titles that balance fantasy and romantic elements, this episode offers insightful discussion for avid readers and writers alike. Get book recommendations, hear personal anecdotes, and understand the evolving perception of romance in literature. Don't miss this engaging and humorous dialogue on the Book Dragon Banter Podcast!

Links: 

YT:https://www.youtube.com/@BookDragonBanterpodcast

TT:https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod

Insta:https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Katherine: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/

Books Mentioned:

Twilight - Stephenie Meyer

Fourth Wing - Rebecca Yarros

Mistborn - Brandon Sanderson 

The Way of Kings - Brandon Sanderson

When He was Wicked - Julia Quinn

The Notebook - Nicholas Sparks

365 Days - Blanka Lipinska

Bride - Ali Hazelwood

ACOTAR - Sarah J. Maas

Gilded Wings & Crimson Skies - Jaymin Eve

The Spellshop - Sarah Beth Durst

That Time I Got Drunk and Saved a Demon - Kimberly Lemming

The Lord of the Rings - J. R. R. Tolkien 

A Pslam for the Wild-built - Monk & Robot - Becky Chambers

Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell - Susanna Clarke

Magical Midlife Madness - K. F. Breene

The Raven Boys - Maggie Stiffvater 

00:00 Welcome to Book Dragon Banter

01:14 Defining Romance in Fantasy Books

02:42 Romance vs. Some-mance vs. No-mance

06:54 Romantasy: Romance in a Fantasy Setting

08:15 Book Examples: Twilight and Fourth Wing

15:37 Romantasy Preferences and Reader Opinions

21:08 Dragons, World-Building, and Romantasy

26:30 Book Recommendation: The Spellshop

26:41 The Challenges of Pleasing Every Reader

27:45 Is Romance Still Maligned?

29:06 The Evolution of Genre Acceptance

30:24 Speculative Fiction: A Broader Term

34:48 The Appeal of Young Adult Fantasy

35:45 The Struggle with Classic Fantasy

38:11 The Business of Romance Novels

39:07 Fantasy as Escapism and Reflection

40:55 Sci-Fi vs. Fantasy: Reader Preferences

41:53 Star Trek and the Human Condition

43:52 Book Recommendations: From No-mance to Some-mance

48:30 Social Media and Final Thoughts

50:38 Bloopers and Behind the Scenes

Transcript

Zinzi Bree: 0:00

Welcome back to Book Dragon. Darn. Stop making background noise. Welcome back to Book Dragon Podcast, book Dragon Banter. I'm gonna... great.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 0:11

say, shake it off, shake it off.

Zinzi Bree: 0:13

it off. Yeah. Yep. Reel it in. Welcome back to book Dragon Banter podcast. A fantasy focused but not exclusive book podcast. We are three, aspiring writers here to talk about books. We chat about tropes we love, what characters we love to hate, and everything in between. And today we are talking about some-mance, romance, and no-mance in fantasy books.

Sage: 0:44

So this podcast is rated explicit, not because we swear a whole lot, but because we talk about books that have explicit content and we do get into them. So if you have someone with you who is not ready to read young adult books or older, we recommend that you listen with your headphones on.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 1:04

If you wanna know what spoilers we might be talking about, take a look at the show notes to see which books are mentioned. And if you don't wanna hear those spoilers, feel free to skip over that part and just move on.

Zinzi Bree: 1:14

We are on to our discussion questions for romance, some-mance, or no-mance in fantasy books. And I'm gonna kick us off with defining romance. For a fantasy book what is romance? Are we talking about a knocking boots scene in your books? Are we talking about hearts pounding and, and fingers brushing, but, no explicit action on the page? Do those both equally qualify as romance or as some of that, some-mance or no-mance? What's your take?

Sage: 1:49

I think that spice level is different than the concept of romance in a book. So to me, the romance can be as limited as just like some lingering looks or flirting. But that you could also go full on explicit sex scenes and that counts as romance, especially if it's part of the plot of the characters, presumably liking each other at least somewhat, or wanting to you know, deepen their relationship and that the part of the plot is the developing relationship or the enemies to lovers transition. So spice level doesn't necessarily mean more romance to me. It's more like, is it a primary plot or is it a subplot, or is it just a side thing of like, oh yeah, those characters are off in the alleyway and it's not actually that big of a deal.'cause that's not what the plot is about at all.

Zinzi Bree: 2:43

For it to qualify as a romance, do you think that the romantic action has to be coming from your main characters or is it also a romance if your main character is not involved in the romance?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 2:57

I think that what matters is what's getting the audience to turn the page. So that is related to what is the plot with the MCs.

Sage: 3:06

Yeah, I would say that to me, if it's not the main characters in the relationship, it's a lot closer to some-mance, even if there is a lot of romantic elements in the story. To me, a romance generally is the main characters journey towards love.

Zinzi Bree: 3:27

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 3:28

Especially, it depends on whose interiority we have. So if our MC doesn't have lingering thoughts, they aren't pining, they aren't engineering situations in which they look one way to the other person or trying to be close to them then I would not necessarily think of that as a romance. I think that the perspective on the page, that interiority is part of what creates that romantic tension for the MCs.

Sage: 3:53

All the like thoughts of how good looking they are

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 3:56

Yes,

Sage: 3:57

over and over and over.

Zinzi Bree: 3:59

Yep. Yep. Oh gosh. Those bulging muscles. Oh man. He's, he fell in the lake and got out and his shirt is drenched and I can, it's see through. Oh, no. What do I do? Not a Colin Firth original Pride and Prejudice fan.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 4:13

Oh, my favorite.

Zinzi Bree: 4:14

here.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 4:14

Oh.

Zinzi Bree: 4:15

I have to scroll back. Roll back here for a second. I forgot to include while, yes, we will be, doing our best to talk about books, we will be bringing in pop culture references just because sometimes that's easier to make or point and give an explanation about a book theory or a story concept as writers, because more people are just aware of something that's in pop culture than in every book that we're discussing. Because, you know, some of you might be early in your reader journey where you're just getting into fantasy books. You're just getting into, some of the things that we're gonna talk about and that's great and you can come here to learn. But, we want to do our best to make our points. Easy to digest, easy to understand. And pop culture helps with that.

Sage: 5:03

It's all story.

Zinzi Bree: 5:04

Yeah, it's all story. That's a great, that is a great point. Sage. So we're defining romance in fantasy as a book where the main characters we're getting their internal thoughts as to their attraction for the other person, their desires for the other person, is what's happening and whether, whether they get together or not, whether they have the HEA, or it's a slow burn. Throughout a book series, it is still central to the main character's desires. That other person for romance. Versus a some-mance is, that is not the main character's central desire. There is something else that is driving them more strongly than their romantic or relational desires for another person. Right? Where we've got, we've got another plot that matters more?

Sage: 6:00

I would say that it's not necessarily as much about their desire,'cause there might be points in the plot of a some-mance where the character's romance as the subplot is what's filling their mind the most. Like they might be like so obsessed over whatever just happened with the romantic interest and that's what's taken over as opposed to the main plot. But more that there is a main plot that is driving the story that is the primary driver to the storyline and that the romance is alongside that. Whereas I think that, romance means that whether or not they end up together like that is the main thing with the story. That whatever else is going on is just there to help or hinder the relationship from happening. And to me, romance generally means happily ever after or happily for now. Is that more romantasy where it's a combination of a romance novel with a fantasy setting? Is that the difference between romantasy and romance and a fantasy book? I don't know.

Zinzi Bree: 7:06

Well, that starts getting into fantasy romance or romantic fantasy. Like what's, what defines those two things, which then, you know, now we have the genre term romantasy, which is a romance in a fantasy setting.

Sage: 7:19

So do we think romantasy is basically a romance story arc in a fantasy setting? Would that be how we would describe romantasy specifically?

Zinzi Bree: 7:32

Yes. That's what I would describe a romantasy in a romantic fantasy that then got squished into that one word. Versus, I think of fantasy romance, where those are reversed, that's more likely to be a monster romance or the, the setting of the fantasy is so strong that's what comes first, in your mind, and then the romance comes after. Except those are, I, gosh, I don't know if that's true because those are monster romances. They are romances. It just happens to be a monster character. I do wanna go back to our book examples for defining fantasy romance or romantic fantasy. particularly using Twilight and Fourth Wing.'cause we talked about this before, where Twilight it's a romantasy You can't take Edward out. You can't take the vampires out and still have a story. Then it's just, Bella at a new school. That's the entire plot of Twilight. If you take out Edward and Taylor Lautner- name PROMPT, name.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 8:39

Jacob,

Sage: 8:40

Oh,

Zinzi Bree: 8:40

thank you team Jacob. Out Edward or you take out Jacob. And again, it's still just a new girl at a school. There's no fantasy. There's no

Sage: 8:50

a lot of rain.

Zinzi Bree: 8:51

yes. Yeah. Just a lot of rain

Sage: 8:53

If Edward isn't in it, then yeah, there is no plot.

Zinzi Bree: 8:56

Mm-hmm.

Sage: 8:57

Or there's a plot that's so boring. Who would read it? You need that romance to make the story fun, right? To make it even a story.

Zinzi Bree: 9:06

Versus Fourth Wing, you could take out Xaden, like you can have her show up at this school, try and survive, say every day,"I will not die today". And there's still plot, there's still a whole ton of stuff going on where she's fighting for her life where there's high stakes, if Xaden isn't in the picture. So that one is, I would say, not just romantasy. That could be a fantasy romance where your fantasy is so there that it can do without the romance. I know it would not be this fun, not everybody's cup of tea. If Xaden wasn't in there. But, there is still enough plot that it could stand on its own.

Sage: 9:52

I don't think it would be the blockbuster that it ended up being if you didn't have Xaden, like the page turning element of some of the romance, in some of these books, like excitement around the slow burn basically of the romance between the characters is like what gets you turning a lot of pages. But I agree, there is some really fun stuff about the trials to become a cadet and picking your dragon, and that scene where she walks through, and all of the dragons are so huge and intimidating. Are they gonna burn you alive? Are you gonna claim one or two or you know, what's gonna happen? And like, he doesn't matter at all in that scene. Right. That's an amazing scene. But if he wasn't in it, would as many people read, I don't know.

Zinzi Bree: 10:39

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 10:40

I think that's a really great way of putting it. Which plot supports which plot. And in Fourth wing, I definitely think that the romance supports the overall plot, which is, the dragons, the war, and our main character staying alive. But in something else, I'm thinking of a Dark Romance. It's one of those like Persephone, Hades ones. Sorry, I can't think of the first one right now. But, essentially the plot in that only supports the romance moving forward. Just like with your Twilight example. Anything outside of romance only supports the romance moving forward in reaching the audience's preferred conclusion. Without the romance, the plot wouldn't matter so much. Whereas in Fourth Wing, the plot is still really great. The writers might have had to add in some other elements to fill in some gaps, but it still would've been incredibly engaging. We have plenty of YA books and stuff that are high fantasy that don't need a huge romance arc for audiences to still adore them.

Sage: 11:45

Yeah, I'm thinking a lot of Brandon Sanderson books might have the lightest bit of romance and more because characters exist in a world where we do have relationships with each other, right? We might have a crush on someone, or date someone, or have an existing divorce, or marriage or it's complicated kind of situation. So that makes for a real person. Whereas it's not at all part of the plot. It's just making the world seem more realistic. The characters seem more realistic to have it. I'm particularly thinking his young adult trilogy. The Mistborn Trilogy. I believe there's a little bit of romance in there, I read it a while ago and the romance doesn't stand out to me at all. It's about the team of thieves and their plot and the magic, all of that stuff is what stands out to me so much more than any side relationship that happens. And, same with The Way of Kings. There's some character romance in there very lightly, but you could take it out completely and all it would do would be feel slightly unrealistic because nobody had a crush or nobody had a marriage or conflict between, an ex-wife or whatever. A brother-in-law's wife, a widow. If there wasn't the brother-in-law's widow that you kind of had a crush on all your life. Like that's a realistic thing, but it doesn't that you could take that out and the plot would continue and everything would be just as exciting. Yeah.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 13:12

That was a very specific example Sage. A brother-in-law's widow.

Sage: 13:18

One of my favorite characters. Yeah. One of my favorite characters in The Way of Kings. I think I read three of the books so far.'Cause there's, I think there's five now and I haven't read them all. One of my favorite characters is Dalinar, who's secretly like in love with his dead brother's wife.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 13:33

I haven't read it yet.

Zinzi Bree: 13:34

Ooh,

Sage: 13:35

Yeah, that was that specific. But it's so minor of an- they interact with each other. There, there's our spoilers. They interact with each other. But it's such a minor element that I would like, it's not, I would say it's a no-mance.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 13:46

Yeah,

Zinzi Bree: 13:46

I think is a little bit funny because... that's being in love with your brother's widow, that's the plot for some romance books where it's like, oh, but I can't because it, it means I didn't love my brother, or have I secretly been in love with her the entire time they've been married. And that's wrong. And I feel guilty. That's the plot of one of the Bridgerton books

Sage: 14:08

I read that one.

Zinzi Bree: 14:10

Yeah. Francesca. Not fantasy. Sorry guys. That's a romance's plot. But you're saying that that was so minor, it could be written out and not be relevant. And the whole rest of the story was happening around it.

Sage: 14:23

Yeah, from The Way of Kings. I would say that it adds complexity to the character and adds character depth. But it doesn't- the plot won't stall without it. Right? It adds complications because there's scenes where those two characters are together and you know that he has all of these feelings and you don't know what she thinks because it's through his point of view. So there is an added layer of complexity, but that's to make there be a little more conflict in the scene, right? It ultimately, and of course then you, you like the character, you want them to be happy. And so there's a little bit of like, oh, I hope that they end up together, or I hope they get to work this out. But at the end of the day, what you really need is to make sure that your entire kingdom isn't wiped out by the enemy. And there's this huge other bunch of stuff that's happening that is so much more important that that could just fall by the wayside. You know? And really what you don't want is for them to have a relationship that comes to a head and causes a problem for the war. But, it doesn't because it's not a romance. If it was a romance, then that, that would be a huge piece, right? You would have some romantic sub-plot element that made everything come to a halt because the romance is what's important.

Zinzi Bree: 15:36

Mm-hmm. For you, as a reader, romantasy- yay or nay? Katherine, you could go first on this one.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 15:42

I am a mood reader, so it's a yay. But also, it depends on what I'm feeling. I don't love books with a romantic plot, generally speaking, that don't have other plot elements going on. Or else I just get really bored. I feel like I'm watching, I don't know, something like The Notebook and no shame on, on that- at all. I just, I get really bored. So Bored. Even on the darker side, everybody was reading 50 Shades for the kink, but there's 365, as well, which, I tried, and I absolutely- there wasn't anything going on. I just couldn't, I couldn't do it. So I'm not opposed to romantasy by any stretch, but there's gotta be other elements that pull me in, that keep me there. An amazing world build, really great other character relationships, mentor and friend relationships. Otherwise if they're just fully absorbed in each other, like complete obsession and that is it, that's all the book is about- I'm probably gonna dip and DNF.

Zinzi Bree: 16:53

So your romantasy has to have, if the characters are together there's something, some subplot happening in the background that is continuing the tension for you that is driving the, oh, I'm gonna keep turning the page.'Cause I need to know how that other thing gets resolved, now that these characters are kind of dealing with their feelings. Is that what I'm hearing?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 17:12

Yeah, I can get kind of bored of the feelings feelings, feelings, feelings, feelings. Not saying that I don't have my moments in which I enjoy that, to be fair. But if there other aren't other things going on, like regular life stuff or some other important tension, then it feels unrelatable and unrealistic. It doesn't drive that tension for me as much.

Zinzi Bree: 17:34

What about for you Sage? Romantasy- yay or nay?

Sage: 17:39

So definitely a little bit is my mood for sure. What I am ready to delve into in terms of complexity. But, I read fantasy for the magic, and for the world building, and for the escapism. And while romance is a different form of escapism generally, if that's what I want? I'm more likely to read a historical fiction romance or something along those lines if I really just want the romance fix. But, I love fantasy so much and science fiction, but fantasy is my number one chosen genre because I love the magic elements. So if the magic feels like it's just slapped on to support the romance, I'm not as engaged by it. And, I honestly feel like... I don't have a problem with spice levels. I can read extensive sex scenes and that's all fine, but sometimes I feel like it's a waste of the page. It could be some really cool fantasy thing happening right now. Really cool magical element. A portal to another, you know, dimension or area of the world. And, instead we just have like erections and detailed descriptions of muscles and whatnot. And I'm like, that's cool. I guess I prefer in that kind of scenario, I prefer the slow burn. The excitement leading up to the sex scenes is more appealing to me than the actual pages. It depends on how many pages it goes on and on for. Also, and how many times they have sex in the book. To where I'm like, okay, that is not what I'm here for. I am here for some cool dragons coming in or sword fight or whatever. So I read. A vampire romance recently where there were more mentions of the love interest who was a vampire. There were more mentions of his erection than his fangs. I'm pretty sure we had like 20 mentions. He was always stalking around naked with this huge erection. And I don't think we actually had a mention of him having fangs. We knew he was a vampire all along- until the end of the book. And, I don't even think he bit anybody ever. So, like-

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 19:44

That's a shame.

Sage: 19:45

To me, if you're having a vampire- I, right? If you're having vampire romance, like I think that there's biting during the sex. So anyway, that's like a whole other conversation. But, the fact that it was like all of this? This is just a very explicit. romance. The vampire thing doesn't even need to be in this situation. So I then read, a totally different vampire romance called Bride by Ali Hazelwood. And, that one was great. It has romance in it. It has sex scenes in it, but it's so much more about the complexity of the world of- it's vampire/werewolf and all the politics and all of that. And I'm there for that. Like, bring in the politics, bring in the reasons they can't be together that actually feel like real reasons as opposed to just, you know, oh, he's in the other room and I can't, we can't be together. That's enough of a reason to make it like a plot. Right? I also really love there to be romance in the books, but I prefer it as a subplot. So I'm there for romantasy if it's really well done. I enjoyed Fourth Wing. I enjoyed ACOTAR. You know, but it has to be like enough cool fantasy build elements.

Zinzi Bree: 20:57

Mm-hmm. I would say I do enjoy romantasy. I don't think I'm a mood reader. I pick books up for very specific reasons. Generally it's because I'm trying to find my next Dragon fix. I very much enjoyed Fourth Wing, much more for the dragons than for the romance. That's fun. It is very fun. The spice in that. Vampires are not, or werewolves are not my favorites Monster Romance reads. But, I have read, oh gosh it's Evie something, Crimson Skies. It's a duology. But it's a dragon shifter romantasy, where the dragons are aliens technically, but aliens even too, like this other planet that they're on, with all the people that live there are elves I think, that have been

Sage: 21:53

Wow.

Zinzi Bree: 21:54

by these alien dragon magic. But it was really fun. It was a fun ride. I enjoyed those books.

Sage: 22:01

That feels like that's enough of the magic element, right? Like you're like you enjoyed it for the cool world building and the dragons is what it sounds like.

Zinzi Bree: 22:12

Okay. So yes, I enjoyed it for the cool world building and the Dragons. I do have complaints, however, this is a series that they have knotting as part of their mating rituals. Knotting with a K-N-O-T-T-I-N-G. I don't like, I don't understand the, this'll be, this'll end up in one of the other podcasts, but like, I do not understand the desire to have another person's parts, in another character's parts, and them like balloon up so that they're stuck in there and can't come out. That just sounds awful and like the worst. So knotting will be a topic for another- maybe I'll have to read other books that describe it better than this particular one. But, also part of the setup in that is very similar to ACOTAR in that the main character ends up a different dragon at first, and it is a sibling of the*spoilers* one she was meant for who is-

Sage: 23:13

Mmhmm sibling.

Zinzi Bree: 23:15

Stuck with in the second book. There's five, five, there we go. Five Dragon Brothers. Dragon Alien Brothers, also it's romantasy but they're aliens. So does that make it sci-fi? Does that, like what, what do you even call it? It is romantasy because it's all made up. I clearly enjoyed this one enough to talk it. It was memorable and not in a hate it way. I have other books that I will passionately talk about. I am frustrated that I was let down. Another dragon book that I read recently, that I will not name. The only redeeming factor was that it had good banter. I made it through halfway of the book because there was good banter, but I'm so mad and I DNF'd it because there was so much the author could have done with the world-building that she just left on the table and didn't, didn't flesh out, didn't go into, didn't make relevant. Some of it was just straight up random and it pissed me off. Which is why it got DNF'd. I like dragons. I wanted more dragons. There were dragons that were supposed to be in this book, and then we basically never at least, 64% of the way through that I listened to, we didn't get to the dragons. So, because I believe this writer has potential, the second book to this series is coming out and I'm just gonna skip the first one and start it with the second one where the main character has her dragons and see if that's changed some things. If that's expanded the world-building. Okay. Stepping off my soapbox end of rant.

Sage: 24:43

Did you feel like, those sex scenes took up space where it could have been world building? Or it just was more that it didn't go as deep as into the world building as you wanted.

Zinzi Bree: 24:54

The one spicy scene that I got to as of halfway through the book, I didn't feel like it was a waste of space, but I did consider it completely unrealistic because the plot setup was- they were in a brothel trying to get an assassin to attack them by making themselves make out and look like they're vulnerable...

Sage: 25:16

Got it. That says a lot.

Zinzi Bree: 25:19

Yeah. I would have rather the scenario where they were like, we're gonna go find a place to be private. Go attempt to do that and be interrupted by an assassin. That would've been my preference, than trying to do this as a trap, because- how idiotic is this assassin to not think that there's gonna be guards around to catch them? Yeah, sorry. There's potential. It just wasn't in this first book.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 25:45

Fair?

Zinzi Bree: 25:46

I'll give the second a shot and we'll see. I'll report back.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 25:49

Yes, please do. I had a thought. Sometimes there's not enough romance either. Or somebody calls something a romantasy, but it just doesn't feel like the romance is fleshed out enough to be very believable. And in this one, I really loved 90% of everything with this book The Spellshop, I could have used a little bit more romance. And that's not a negative on how it was written or anything like that. I thought it was really excellent. But I wanted just a little bit more build to the depth of the relationship between the characters. For me personally, like I walked away thinking that was so good, I just want a little bit more to feel fully satisfied. So sometimes that's the case as well. But, I definitely do recommend that book. It's very sweet. It's very good. It's very well done. However, for me, sometimes the balance is just a little bit off.

Zinzi Bree: 26:41

That comes down to personal preference, though, as a reader.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 26:44

True.

Zinzi Bree: 26:44

you can't, as a writer, you can't please everybody. Like,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 26:47

No.

Zinzi Bree: 26:48

Man, this makes me giggle and this makes me kick my feet and I love this and somebody else is gonna be like, I couldn't believe it. It was unbelievable. That is not my experience of a real person, and I just couldn't get into the guy. There's gonna be those kind of responses no matter what you do.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 27:05

Yeah. So if somebody was listening to the first half of what I said and they're like, oh, well if there's romance, she needs plot to go with it. And The Spellshop does a great job of having good, decent plot, good characters that are very lovable. And then they write this perfect book for me based on that. And then I walk away, go like, oh, but it wasn't enough at the opposite way. Like, how so hard to be a writer? Guys, you can't please anybody all the time.

Zinzi Bree: 27:29

All right. Moving on to, we've all answered, we had a, maybe sometimes from Katherine. A must have good plot from Sage and a, eh, no, I do enjoy the romance, the romantasy from Zinzi. Moving on to is romance still maligned? Is it, do you think it's taken seriously now that books like ACOTAR and Fourth Wing have become such big money makers and movers in the book industry? Or are we still having the conversations where it's like, yeah, I'm a reader. Don't ask me what I read.

Sage: 28:06

I think it's still evolving. When I was a kid, I remember my first experience with a romance novel was going to my friend's house and her mom having stacks of Harlequin novels in the closet, like high up on a shelf. She clearly loved them, read them all the time, but they were not out on the bookshelf. And yet her kid knew where they were. So we got some down and read them, and that was my first experience with a romance novel. But they were hidden away. Right. And I think that like my romantasy novels are on the shelf alongside the other fantasy novels that I have and the science fiction novels and all the other books that I have, they're up there on the shelf and I'm not embarrassed to admit that I read them, although I always call ACOTAR my guilty pleasure. So for me, it's still an evolving thing and I'm less likely to gush on and on about a romantasy that I've read, that I enjoyed unless I know the person I'm talking to also reads in that genre. I feel like fantasy in general has always been a little bit of like fantasy and science fiction. Were always maligned also in, a different way than romance, but not taken as seriously. People say, oh, you read fantasy and science fiction, you're not a serious reader or you're not a serious person. So to me, the fact that it's like I love fantasy and now I'm reading fantasy romance but I don't have shame around it. So I think that there is a movement away from feeling embarrassed and there's a movement of like, yes, this is a thing that we can enjoy and there's nothing wrong with it.

Zinzi Bree: 29:39

I could have The Spellshop on my shelves and hype it up to pretty much anybody who walked in and was like, oh, that's a pretty cover. And I will then talk your ear off. If someone looks at this cover, if they don't say anything to That Time I Got Drunk And Saved A Demon. Which is very much the romance covers of olds, but fantasy style, it's fantastic. But, I still run in enough circles where that would feel like, maybe turn that book around when these friends are coming over. It's a guilty pleasure. It's great, it's enjoyable. But, unless someone else brings up a topic... You gotta ask for it. I'm not gonna give it to you. I did want to point out. Sage, when someone asks her what she reads, she says speculative fiction.

Sage: 30:29

So, I always hated it that I would go into the bookstore and there would be like fiction, and then there would be mystery, and then there would be fantasy science fiction. It's great all the books are in one place, but I always felt like it was being- that the genre was looked down upon in a way that it wasn't as serious as fiction or wasn't as worthy as fiction. And, when I heard the term speculative fiction, I was like, YES. I'm totally on board with that. Because first of all, it incorporates everything from fantasy and science fiction as well as horror and the genres kind of mix together more and more, it kind of incorporates all of that. But, I do know that when I'm in a conversation, especially with somebody that I don't necessarily know very well, and I'm trying to make a good impression, particularly when we're talking about what I'm writing, I will say that I write speculative fiction- and I might say even that I read, and I know it's because I feel like it makes me sound more intelligent or that what I'm working on is more serious. And, I don't always do it, because if I know the person well, then we can talk more in depth about the books that inspire me and what my influences are and whatnot. But, when I'm in conversation with somebody that maybe is a lawyer or something like that, and they're like, what do you do? And I'm like, well, I write. I'm not gonna say I write romantasy or I write fantasy. I say, I write speculative fiction, or I write fiction, and then I get more into it. I also just like how the word sounds, so there's that too. I think we're still at a point where both romance and fantasy are not as accepted as serious or worthy

Zinzi Bree: 32:06

Mm-hmm.

Sage: 32:06

they could be.

Zinzi Bree: 32:07

I find it really interesting being on being on Bookstagram, being on YouTube in the book area, and being on BookTok where it feels like on TikTok, the predominant people that I'm seeing that talk about romantasy are women like us. Very rarely is it couples. A lot of them binge on romantasy books and there's their, here's my top five, or here's my romantasy ones that I hated or whatever. But, I'll get over to YouTube. And on YouTube I've got fantasy snobs who, they're not reading the romantasies they're reading high fantasy and epic fantasy and everything is war, and death, and grim. I'm sorry, you're not making it super attractive to me to wanna read. I don't wanna read about war. My eyes glaze over sometimes if it's not magical politics. I'm a fast forward a little bit through that section, or hope that I'm listening to it as, as an audio book sped up so I can just through that part. And even though I have some of those books on my shelves, they're still on my TBR. If there isn't a grounding relationship. To get me through that story, I'm gonna struggle reading it. Not because it isn't good writing, I'm sure it's good writing. I'm just intimidated.

Sage: 33:34

What are you intimidated by?

Zinzi Bree: 33:38

Sorry. The thickness, I'm intimidated by the thickness. The,

Sage: 33:43

That's fair.

Zinzi Bree: 33:44

I'm also intimidated by the, I don't have a great memory. So like, if there's a lot of characters that are introduced, if it's a lot of point of views bouncing around, if it's there's multiple kingdoms and I have to remember the government structure of multiple different places, that gets difficult for me. That's just how my brain works. That's not what I attach to and remember. If your writing is done well enough where- you've got a representative character of that government system, or those politics, or that plot point even. This is your character that's, that's central to them. That's a much easier read for me. Then that's something that I can get into and engage. Because I am very character focused and emotionally driven in story. I've had a couple of books where I'd read and the voice of the writer is awesome. This is really interesting magic, and this is really interesting politics, but there wasn't a character that I connected with and so I didn't get very far.

Sage: 34:48

I really enjoy young adult fantasy for exactly that reason, because a lot of young adult books, the emotions are heightened and the emotional connection between characters as everyone's like going through it, right? And, so that element, and then the fantasy is usually pretty strong, but it's also not as in depth as some of the epic high fantasy. But you will have politics or intrigue, but when it's well done, it's written in a way that it's easier to keep up with. And then also, there's romance, but there's not a lot of time spent on the page with explicit sex scenes. So then that fulfills for me personally, the need for it to be a little more plot or character driven. So that's one of the reasons I love young adult fantasy is because it brings the best together and then they're a little bit short also. So it's not like these, you don't have to, the, it's a little bit narrower in it's girth.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 35:41

Well done. I have a confession. I can't get through Lord of the Rings, the books, I struggle with those. I did read The Hobbit. I tried over the years. And I always got bored and tapped out midway. This is one of those books where I think I would've loved to have some other tension, like the romantic tension, keeping me in there. However, if that were the case, it would not be the books that they are today. Industry would not be what it is. that said, that's another one where it's like super intense. The world build is almost self-aggrandizing for the author and it's well done and it's massively culturally influential, but there's no romance. And as a movie, loved them. Still love them- as a book. I try every once in a while and I just, can't get through. I get bored.

Sage: 36:41

When I reread the Lord of the Rings recently, I noticed how, and I had a hard time getting through it the first time I read it also, like I gave up'cause I felt like it was going on and on, and then I realized that there's like a ton of appendixes and so I think I was almost done, but I was just like, this is dragging on forever. There's still half a book left. I reread it to my kids recently and the way that the plot is written from the different character's perspectives. It's like you read all of what happens to one group of characters and then you go back in time and read what's happening to another group of characters at the same time. I feel like if it was written now and it was modern, even if there wasn't a romance element, the pacing would be so different and that would help me get through it.'Cause I love those books. I love everything it's done for the genre, but I feel like the amount of descriptions of mountains that you never even visit is a little excessive. And that if we cut inner, you know, inner cut between scenes, especially in that second book, like it could be, easier to get through. Books are written differently now than they used to be, right? Like,

Zinzi Bree: 37:53

Mm-hmm.

Sage: 37:53

The pacing and the stylistic elements are a lot different. So maybe for you it's not necessarily the romance?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 38:01

Yeah, maybe it is more of the pacing and the tension, as opposed to whether there is or isn't romance in the book. That's a really excellent point.

Sage: 38:11

However, I have heard people talk about like how amazing the romance industry is as a business because it's this industry that's pretty driven by women and extremely financially successful. And it is the biggest selling genre in books. And it's growing exponentially. I think there should be less shame placed on that genre and on fantasy and science fiction as well.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 38:40

Agreed. Yeah. The fact that I read fantasy is almost as side-eye inducing as the fact that, I like and read romance. People have even commented,"I feel like you don't live in reality and like, why don't you want books based on real things?" And,"I'm just a little bit worried about the fact that you, you live in this complete alternate reality in your brain with the dragons and the magic and the things like that. But, we don't have that in real life." Escapism does not demand reality. But, I do demand relatability.

Zinzi Bree: 39:14

I'd wanna ask those people, do you go on vacation?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 39:17

I hope

Sage: 39:18

Fantasy

Zinzi Bree: 39:19

it's a vacation for my brain

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 39:21

yes.

Zinzi Bree: 39:23

financially much more affordable than a physical vacation to the beach, to the mountains, to wherever you wanna go. And, as a woman with a heavy mental load of my mental responsibilities, like my brain needs a vacation more often than my body does.

Sage: 39:42

Yeah. And, you can also have the thrill of excitement without having to live through it, right? You don't have to go skydiving in order to get that thrill from what it feels like to be on a dragon's back flying through the sky. I would also argue that there's more to fantasy than escapism. That's definitely an element, but I also think similarly to dystopian that you can explore elements of society, elements of culture, elements of relationships, from a place where you can reflect on how something that's happening in a fantasy novel is similar to something that's either happened historically or is currently happening at this point- you can have a discussion about it without taking sides on a real world issue. You can talk about things like racism, sexism, or classism, but base it in this fantasy world where you can almost make people think maybe something different than they would normally think because it's not the world that they're living in. So I think that there is room outside of the escapism, which is amazing, but there's also room to have like a deeper thought process around some of the things that we take for granted in our society.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 40:55

I was recently doing a manuscript evaluation for a sci-fi book, one of the things that kept lodging in my brain. I was trying to come up with a way to explain one of my points. So I kept asking the people around me, why they read sci-fi as opposed to fantasy and why in general from society it has a less shameful rap maybe than fantasy has. And there's something about it being like more grounded in the realm of our reality's possibility. I felt that was really interesting because much like Sage, I like a filter between me and a lot of these concepts. And for them, they needed this realm of possibility that, brought, I don't know, made it seem relatable to them somehow. And for me, that's exactly the opposite. So interesting.

Sage: 41:52

That is interesting. I'm a huge- okay. Here's something that I'm gonna admit but, I'm a huge Star Trek fan. I always have been, Next Generation is my number one choice for Star Trek and I love it so much. And one of the things I love is well, there's a lot of things I love about it, and I've heard it called competency porn before, which just stuck with, I think like they're just so good at what they do and they work so well together as a team and all of these things. I know I really like that aspect of it. But for me, the science fiction piece a lot of times is, What does it mean to be human? And, if you don't have dragons and you don't have magic, and it is placing humanity in this other reality. But, I like that you can take humanity and put it on other planets and what does it mean to be a human in this kind of environment? But, I always think of magic as being science we haven't discovered yet, so.

Zinzi Bree: 42:47

I would agree with that. So to bring this back around to our romance, some-mance and no-mance- the books that the plot is discovering what it means to be human, discovering what it means to be kind, plots of discovery that aren't about discovering romance. Is a great potential plot for a no-mance. I think that's on my TBR. Monk and Robot, which is a cozy. Monk and Robot is the name of the series. The first one is Psalm of the Wild Built.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 43:19

Monk and Robot, because that's a super intriguing title. Very unusual.

Zinzi Bree: 43:25

I started it. I have it as an audiobook. It's very short though, so, I'll get through it quick. But, I had to pause because I'm trying to work on my own writing and I can't listen to other people's stuff or read other people's stuff when I am working, or it influences my voice.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 43:39

I can't stop reading other people's stuff, but I will switch genres.

Zinzi Bree: 43:43

Nope. I can watch TV shows or do movies but I can't read, I can't do people's words otherwise, it influences my things. Should

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 43:52

we do our book recommendations?

Zinzi Bree: 43:54

Yes. I'm going to go ahead and jump into mine, which is this~ I love this. It is such a warm hug. It is a cup of hot chocolate, even though it takes place on an island, which is the childhood home of the main character. There's a sentient plant companion. There's stolen library books that must be kept safe. There's a cinnamon roll of a love interest. I consider it clean fantasy because there are no spicy scenes and just very sweet all around. So, The Spellshop by Sarah Beth Durst. Is Zinzi's recommended read. But, I have a second one because if you do want spice and you want to laugh out loud. And you want a rom-com D&D game gone wrong- this is the read for you. It has dragons, it has, magic, it has hilarity. And, and some spicy spice. That Time I Got Drunk And Saved A Demon by Kimberly Lemming. Very fun. And this one is part of a series, the Mead Mishaps series. The spell shop. There's another book that is, something to do with the Greenhouse. There's the second one of this, that comes out very soon, that I'm excited about. All right. That was me. Somebody else go.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 45:18

Okay, I'll do, no-mance one. This one is Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. I think of it because you were talking about the discovery being a part of so much fantasy, and this is all about discovery. There's a little bit of frenemies in there. But it is not romance. I think it's an excellent book. I think it's an excellent world. And then, if I get to recommend a second one because you started it Zinzi, I'm gonna recommend the Magical Midlife Dating Series. I think that's really cute. I know that that's like book five, but if you look that one up, you'll see it's by K.F. Breene. You can grab the first one. Highly recommend. Definite spice, eventually.

Zinzi Bree: 45:57

There's some spicy stuff even in the second one. Not, not in a good way, but in a funny way.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 46:03

The visuals on that too. The author did it so well. Like, you can't not see it in your brain. The way that they wrote it. Yeah, it's funny. It's so fantastic. It's so lighthearted. It's everything you could want in a fantasy romance that is super quirky and has a character who is 40 or at 40, something like that.

Zinzi Bree: 46:22

A sentient house. It has a creepy doll army.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 46:27

Yes, yes. And everybody's a shifter.

Sage: 46:30

Wow. Okay. Well, I haven't read that series, but based on that recommendation, I am moving it up my TBR.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 46:36

Do it.

Zinzi Bree: 46:37

Yes.

Sage: 46:37

My recommendation is this one Maggie Stiffvater's, The Raven Boys. This is the first book in, I think it's a four part the Raven Cycle, and it's contemporary young adult fantasy. I love contemporary fantasy because the idea that magic could be real in our world is like so appealing to me. I'm gonna read the very opening line of this one. This is a some-mance."Blue Sargent had forgotten how many times she'd been told that she would kill her true love." So the first line is about true love, but it's also about killing her true love. And, it leads into a whole other plot element where the romance is integral to the plot, but it's not the primary aspect of the plot. And, a lot of it has to do with, the main character Blue, and her relationship with these prep school boys, and their quest to find a hidden grave. It's beautifully written the way that the author jumps between character perspectives and how each character thinks about their friends really builds out these beautiful, very fleshed out characters. And there's a lot of really interesting, different magic in it. It's not like shifters or whatever. It's like very unique elements of magic. Huge fan. Highly recommend.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 47:57

I started on the sequel series without realizing I had to have read the Raven Boys series first, and it was so confusing, but it was incredibly compelling. I got halfway through the book before I realized there was a whole series before it. I just got the first book the Raven Boys rented. So by the time we meet next, I will have read that one too. Per your rec.

Sage: 48:17

Awesome.

Zinzi Bree: 48:18

I currently have the Cruel Prince on Sage's recommendation to start listening to. So I have rec'd the romances here, and Sage has got the some-mance, and Katherine took our no-mance. Fantastic. Katherine, can you tell us where you can find us on social media?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 48:34

You can find us on the social platforms at Book Dragon Banter Pod.

Zinzi Bree: 48:39

Except for Insta, because somebody else had that. So on Insta, we are just Book Dragon Banter.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 48:45

Yeah, but you can find us. You can find us from our links down below, or on our website. Just type in our name and come listen to more of these chats. We would love to have you.

Zinzi Bree: 48:56

This is gonna be so quick, I promise. Listeners, I need a no-mance fantasy with a female lead. I would love this. I want this recommendation, I want a no romance, but with a found family aspect and the main character is female. Preferably not a young adult. I would love an adult. I want that story. Send me your recommendations. All right. Sorry. Sage our book club read.

Sage: 49:25

Our first book club read is The Last Dragon of the East by Katrina Kwan. And, we will be reading and delving into this book in an upcoming episode very soon. So make sure that you find your copy and start reading now so that you can follow along with us without worrying about any spoilers.

Zinzi Bree: 49:47

Also, to be clear, we are not affiliated. That is the book I picked it because the cover was beautiful. And I am very excited about the mythology of the red thread of fate. We are a baby podcast. Please subscribe. Please, please, please, please rate and review. And if you like what you heard, you can help us by sharing. Our next episode coming out after the book club episode is, Did Marketing Make You Read It?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 50:12

Probably.

Zinzi Bree: 50:14

So for those who stick around after the outro music, there will be bloopers. Last but not least, thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you so much for lending us your ears and listening to us ramble, and rant, and share our love for books. Thank you so much. This was Book Dragon Banter and we will see you next time.

Sage: 50:32

See you next time. Can I really quick, are you still recording?

Zinzi Bree: 50:41

Yes. I will tell you when I'm not recording. So just like anything else you

Sage: 50:43

Okay.

Zinzi Bree: 50:44

in here, now's the time.

Sage: 50:46

Well, I just wanted to do my explicit thing one more time. This is an explicit podcast and we are not gonna talk super dirty, but we will cover adult books and. Get into some spicy stuff from time to time. So if you are not comfortable reading ya books or above, or you have listeners around that are not comfortable with that, then you should probably shit, I did it wrong again.

Zinzi Bree: 51:15

We'll put that one in the, in the bloopers.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 51:18

Yes.

Zinzi Bree: 51:19

There will be bloopers.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 51:20

Yes.

Zinzi Bree: 51:22

and some of them, some of them might just be me and Katherine being like, how can we say this with a, say this with our A SMR voice.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 51:29

was just thinking that.

Zinzi Bree: 51:30

the softest possible. Welcome to a book, dragon Banter.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 51:34

Yes. Well, and with Sage being like we don't talk dirty, I almost replied to talked over. I was like, I wanna talk dirty. What if I wanna talk Dirty

Sage: 51:42

I wish you had. We can totally do an episode where we just talk dirty the whole time in our very lovely voices. That will be for subscribers only.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 51:56

Subscribers only A SMR where we all use our dirty voice.

Sage: 52:00

maybe we will do a really lovely breakdown of a very dirty book where we read extended passages in our lovely voices

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 52:11

Nice. I just read one for which that might actually work.

Zinzi Bree: 52:15

Sorry, the cat sounds Just don't touch me.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 52:22

Your dog whining for attention as s just cat eating her planet. Yes. Love them.

Sage: 52:29

So I am sorry I have to pee so bad. Can you gimme a one minute? I One minute.