Book Dragon Banter
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Book Dragon Banter
Delving into Elatsoe by Darcie Little Badger - Book Club Deep Dive
Book Dragon Banter: Elatsoe by Darcy Little Badger - A YA Fantasy Murder Mystery Review
Join us for this exciting book club episode where we dive into 'Elatsoe' by Darcy Little Badger. If you love young adult books with strong protagonists, magical elements, and mystery, this is a must-watch! We discuss the book's mythology, handling of themes like representation and diversity, and how it masterfully combines folklore with a modern setting. Listen in to our thoughts on the plot twists, character arcs, and why we think this debut novel received such high praise. Don't miss our conversation on what makes this book a unique and compelling read!
BDB Fable Fantasy Focused Book Club: https://fable.co/club/diverse-fantasy-with-zinzi-bree-271215645134?referralID=f9KdWh3wtd
Book Club: Elatsoe by Darcie Little Badger
Author Site: https://darcielittlebadger.com/books-and-stories/#elatsoe
February’s Book: How to Find a Nameless Fae by A.J. Lancaster
Author Site: https://ajlancaster.com/books/other-projects/how-to-find-a-nameless-fae/
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Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/
Katherine: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/
Write With Me, Zinzi Bree - Substack: https://writewithmezinzibree.substack.com/
Book Dragon Ink Retreats: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/ink-retreats
00:00 Introduction to the Book Club
00:07 Why You'll Love Elatsoe
01:00 Representation and Romance in Elatsoe
01:35 Personal Reading Experiences
02:36 Meet the Hosts
03:10 Book Club Logistics
03:39 Pronunciation and Symbolism of Elatsoe
04:36 Why We Chose Elatsoe
05:28 Accolades and Initial Impressions
06:27 Unique Elements of Elatsoe's World
11:54 Positive Representation and Family Dynamics
22:58 Support and Grief: Navigating Loss
25:08 Healthy Relationships and Character Arcs
26:39 Cultural Beliefs and Ghosts
28:37 Foreshadowing and Plot Twists
32:48 Power Dynamics and Racism
40:48 Empathy Through Storytelling
46:38 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
This is our book club episode. and the book that we're featuring this time is Elatsoe by Darcy Little Badger.
Sage Moreaux:I was gonna say, if you like young adult books with strong protagonists who get involved in a mystery and also love things like magic and vampires and a little bit of humor, you'll love Elatsoe.
Zinzi Brookbree:you would love Elatsoe if you like YA murder mystery that is heavy on the myth. And low on the horror and gore. there were really only a couple of spots in the story that felt like real life consequences were happening, A lot of it was you got the mythology story and that allowed to have something be a creepy monster without your main character necessarily be endangered by it.
Katherine Suzette:Well then we've covered like how violent it is and then how myth and magic heavy it is. So then I'll also say. You will also like this book if you don't care whether or not there's a heavy romance subplot, because in this book, the main character is asexual, so it's not a big deal. and I know for some readers that is actually pretty important to have representation in books where romance is not the key goal of any of the characters in the plot. Like, that's just not what they're making all of their life decisions around. So I think it's a beautiful choice for those of us who don't need a romance subplot in order to enjoy the book.
Zinzi Brookbree:I was sharing with Katherine and Sage that I'm three books passed when we read this at the date of recording. So I had to go back and start over and re-listen to a Elatsoe to get a lot of the details fresh in my brain. Again. I also know Katherine, when we went to record it the first time, had listened to it twice.
Katherine Suzette:how many books I've read since then. read 12 books
Zinzi Brookbree:12 books
Katherine Suzette:they're all audio, and honestly, I've been listening to the Jenky holiday romances that I didn't get to,
Zinzi Brookbree:I read, the people you meet on Vacation Unreasonable Hospitality, which is nonfiction, and when the moon hatched, which is 700 pages of, didn't need to be this long.
Katherine Suzette:Let's that said so kindly.
Zinzi Brookbree:Yep.
Sage Moreaux:Through Weathering Heights, and that one is, becoming a bit
Zinzi Brookbree:Ooh,
Sage Moreaux:me. I keep putting it aside to read other stuff, so, and then coming back to it.
Zinzi Brookbree:Um,
Sage Moreaux:through the book, Kathy dies, and then you're like, well, now what's the rest of the whole book? I can't, I read it so long ago and I don't remember.
Zinzi Brookbree:Welcome to book Dragon Banter, a podcast where three aspiring authors talk all things books. We're fantasy focused, but we are not fantasy exclusive with me are my co-hosts
Sage Moreaux:Hi, I am Sage Moreaux. And
Katherine Suzette:I am Katherine Suzette.
Zinzi Brookbree:And I'm Zinzi Bree Welcome. We're so glad you're here. we attempted this episode previously that got interrupted. So, if you're watching this, outfits are changed is because I had to cut in some of the things that we talked about the first time that then we didn't go over the second time. this is two recording sessions smooshed into one because we loved this book and had so much to say. This is our book club episode. we do one book a month. you can read along with us. You can find us under fantasy focused Book Dragon Banter and it is run by me, Zinzi Bree there on Fable. I'm club and
Katherine Suzette:joined our book Club on Fable yet, so thanks for that reminder
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:join our book club
Zinzi Brookbree:Yep. Now that you've already read the book, that's for this month?
Katherine Suzette:twice.
Zinzi Brookbree:Yeah, I'm having a good time over there. Um, why?
Katherine Suzette:a come. Have a good time too.
Zinzi Brookbree:Yes, do it. This month. We were reading Elatsoe it took me listening to the audio book to realize that's how it is pronounced. When I was looking at it before, I absolutely was calling it a Elat-sew, but it is E-lat-so-way which I think is really pretty actually.
Katherine Suzette:I liked the symbolism in choosing Elatsoe both for like how it sounds, how beautiful it sounds, and also because it stands for Hummingbird and it
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:the character beautifully.
Zinzi Brookbree:and it's also the name of Great. Sixth. Right? Great grand, great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother. A that's way that we got to hear the, um, the legends about, throughout the story, and that was one of my favorite parts.
Katherine Suzette:Since this is a book
Sage Moreaux:club episode, we are sharing lots of details about the book. if you haven't read it yet, please go check it out, read it, and then come back and listen along with us. It's fantastic and we highly recommend.
Zinzi Brookbree:why did we pick Elatsoe that is a good question that I gave myself and you guys can't answer'cause I'll pick the book. Dunno why I did that.
Katherine Suzette:Picked it because we trust Zinzi
Zinzi Brookbree:I pick Elatsoe Partly because the cover looked like winter. I didn't realize it was a bunch of ghost dogs until looking at the cover later. I thought she was in just a bunch of snow. Right? so I was like, oh, great. This is a winter book. We'll do this winter book in January. It's got myths and tales that are, from, mythology that we hadn't read yet. So those were parts of picking it up as well as, looking at it on good reads. It just has a bunch of awards and nominations and the good things, that qualify it. so I'm gonna go ahead and read. Elatsoe is written by Darcy Little Badger. It is her debut novel. Elatsoe has received five starred reviews from Kikis Reviews Publishers' Weekly book list, book page, and shelf awareness, and is a New England book award for. young Adult finalists. It was also listed by Time Magazine as one of the 100 best fantasy books of all time, and by Publishers Weekly as one of the best books of 2020. so that's a lot of praise. high praise for a debut fantasy novel. I wanted to know, did it live up to the hype of all of those awards of all of these people saying, Hey, this is a quality book.
Sage Moreaux:So when I first read the book blurb on the back, I was surprised. I had like some preconceptions around the book
Zinzi Brookbree:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:cover and the first couple sentences. But then when I learned that not only was it a book about who is a, Apache teenager, but. she also like lives in this world where there's modern mythology magic where there's ghost spirits from historical upbringing and tribal, background. There's vampires that exist and there's
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:of magic that are like. From different cultural influences in the United States. And I was like, wow, that sounds amazing. And then I learned it's a murder mystery. It's got, the main character is an asexual teenager. So I brought together a bunch of very cool elements, that I did not expect to find all in one book
Zinzi Brookbree:And it brought them together really well, right? Like it didn't. It didn't feel disjointed. It didn't feel like, oh, this is weird. This is way outta left field. What is, what is like vampires? What, what are vampires doing? But like, they were presented a way of, oh, this makes sense. It's a curse. It functions this way. which stayed kind of within the mythology that this version of America was building. Right? it's.
Sage Moreaux:all the elements that were included, I was like, there's no way that this is gonna, it sounds amazing and there's no way that it's all gonna come together. And it totally did.
Zinzi Brookbree:Oh, and they were that there's Fae and you could be a descendant of Oberon, right? So you could, teleport through mushroom fairy rings like that. the fact that that was. Legalized and formalized and you know, there's stations for it. The idea that instead of going, oh, I'm gonna go to the bus station or the train station. you go to the ferry ring station and you get approval to go through and get teleported all the through fairy magic all the way to some other part of the country
Katherine Suzette:Yeah. It was like tearing a, a wormhole in reality temporarily in order to transport them. And I was like, whoa. I love this. there's all the current science and everything. It's just this alternate reality where basically any form of magic is possible.
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:And even if it isn't brought into the book there, it didn't seem like there was like genuinely a limit, but it did seem like the families kept their particular, magical affinities and how to access those,
Zinzi Brookbree:Or Family secrets.
Katherine Suzette:And that
Zinzi Brookbree:Yep.
Katherine Suzette:acceptable in the culture,
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:was fascinating.
Zinzi Brookbree:It was also, interesting to me that they had, the best friend he is descendant of Oberon, right? So he had the ability to summon willow, the wisps, the little light balls, right? And that was a inherited magic versus a lots who is a, the magic. She has a natural gift, but the secret of doing it is still considered to be passed down generationally, from. oldest daughter to oldest daughter in that family. if you can't tell from the way we're talking about it, we don't do star ratings, but this was a fascinating story. Highly recommend, I absolutely agree with the awards that it was getting. it just was magical and married, lots of unexpected elements altogether in a way that was enjoyable. Maybe my only criticism, and that's just a personal taste, is I would also love to see this world handled, in, not OIA, but in adult book. That's, that's about this, that's in this setting.
Katherine Suzette:Hmm.
Zinzi Brookbree:and maybe deals with some of the other factions, that choose to prey upon the, Disenfranchised, which is part of what happened during this story.
Sage Moreaux:I really loved about it was that it had, Ellie was sort of like a teen detective in
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm. Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:and I've read a lot of YA books, not necessarily Fantasy Dry. But where there's like a teen detective and so then there's multiple, they're part of a series, but it's sort of like they're almost like standalones where you could read that story and it's that same detective, right? But it's a teenager and I could see this becoming something like that where she went on.
Zinzi Brookbree:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:mysteries that happened. This one was very personal for herself, but I could see it turning into something where she, it kind of hinted at that towards the end of the book that was the direction she wanted to go, was becoming this kind of investigator.
Zinzi Brookbree:I'll read
Sage Moreaux:of
Zinzi Brookbree:So Ways is paranormal investigations, right?
Katherine Suzette:I'm here for it. I guess I really loved that world build didn't feel hefty as a read,
Zinzi Brookbree:Hmm.
Katherine Suzette:like the possibilities were endless, but it didn't feel like we spent a lot of time absorbing the facts about this world. It felt so natural and believable that I was like, yeah, we could totally be living in that reality, I just didn't know it. I will go live in that other dimension right now.
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:ring. I will jump.
Sage Moreaux:And in kind of classic young adult fashion, the world fantasy young adult, the world building was, clear but not overly bogged down with details like Katherine was saying. But I actually, so I love the epic fantasies and I actually wanted more.
Katherine Suzette:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:world is so fantastically done. I want more, I want more details. I want to know more about. Everything, not just a re's, personal, family history and how magic works with them. We got a decent amount of that, but I could have used more of that. But I wanted to know, like I imagine that throughout the United States in different parts, you know, so I just, yeah, I could have just kept reading of that part of it
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:detail.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Zinzi Brookbree:What were you surprised by? I think the thing that I loved the most and was surprised by, because it feels like most and I kind of feel like we're trained to, to have this, and it makes it just easier for, um. Young adult characters to have agency, right? When they're rebellious against their parents, where their parents have told them no, and they're sneaking out and they go on this adventure, or they're orphans, you know, their parents are dead. Or like, there's always some excuse for why a parent isn't present, on the adventure. And I loved that this one didn't do any of that. That the parents listened to their kid that were like, okay, you're right. I believe you. let's follow up on this. But it wasn't done in a way where it took away any of her agency. It wasn't like, okay, honey, I'll take care of this. You don't do anything. It's now my job because I'm the parent, right? It was still her making decisions and leading what happened next, and her parents were there, to come alongside and support. But not take over. And like I just, to me was surprising as well as just so well done and appreciated read because we don't get enough of that in fiction, in fantasy, in general,
Katherine Suzette:Yeah, absolutely. one of the things that I look for most in books is like positive representation of a lot of these things, because usually the genetic family. Is the bio family, whatever, whatever family they were raised in is somehow not suited to moving forward in life or in that journey with the, with the character, especially in Hawaii or young adult, new adult, that kind of thing. I really loved that as well. And when I read it a second time, I read that ending. I was like, what happened to the mom because I forgot. Where she was in the last chapters, but when I reread it, I was able to pay attention to where she was a little bit more and I was like, yeah. She was really involved with everything and it reminded me a little bit my mother is in some ways my best adventure partner too. And so I liked to see that kind of thing in a book. Positive representation of, you know, family.
Zinzi Brookbree:Parent
Sage Moreaux:I was a little surprised when, it went to the mom's perspective late in the book. And when it happened, I was like, whoa.
Katherine Suzette:It was disconcerting.
Sage Moreaux:that chapter and it was interesting to see some of the same people and scenario going down from the mom's perspective versus from Ellie's perspective, that was really interesting. The other thing that surprised me a lot in this one was, how much, and kind of early on in the book, and then consistently it went into the storytelling mode where somebody was telling a story usually of sixth great, Ellie's ancestor. And, in hindsight that. I was like, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense because oral history and, telling stories orally is like a native tradition. before, there was the written word, people would do a lot of storytelling. And so the fact that that was a cultural element made so much sense and it was handled so beautifully. And so it became some of my favorite parts of the book. But it surprised me when it first came up because I feel like young adult, the pacing is often a little quicker, and that storytelling kind of slowed the plot pacing down, was just so good, handled really well.
Zinzi Brookbree:a lot of times, even with those stories though, they were adventure stories. That was sixth great. Dealing with
Sage Moreaux:Mm-hmm.
Zinzi Brookbree:Right, like the Leach Monster or Sixth Great. or when, uh, falls into the river and then starts remembering a story of, the, like the river monster.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:I felt like this book had that whole thing of being like unexpected and inevitable so that when you learned what was happening and that the, the doctor was using magic to steal, health from people and was generally. Taking like the disenfranchised and, you know,
Katherine Suzette:The people nobody would care about.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah. To support his wealthy white, community. it was like, I didn't expect it, but also I'm totally not surprised. Of course, that was what was happening.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:thought that was really well done.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah. I think that. The author handled that really respectfully'cause that that is honestly something that I struggle with sometimes in my pleasure of a book. It doesn't take away from like the quality of the book at all, but sometimes it can take away from my pleasure when. not just like cultural diversity is pointed out, but sexual diversity and economic diversity, all those things become such a hefty point that the author is trying to make. And in this one, it didn't detract from my pleasure, I felt. I felt pleasure at how it was done, how respectfully and well represented all these various concerns were. I mean, and she brought in everything. I even liked that there was, like discussion of the vampire from the end right to the land and things like that. So there's this thing in the book where Ellie's family and other Apache nation, um, could kick vampires off of their land by removing the welcome kind of a thing. But then when removed to welcome from this final vampire and like it didn't work.'cause it turns out he's actually Lipan Apache himself. I was like, what?
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:remember the details of it, but it was like, you could tell he was clearly in danger of his immortal life. Right. And, that, that was one of the highlights for me because I'm a vampire nerd and was such an unexpected and yet. Worked so well with the story that she was telling and the cultural magical, present day that she was creating. It was fantastic. And then, yeah, for the other vampire to add that it was his home. So then that was like a nice twist also. Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:yeah, so they used like checkoffs gun really well, but then also it did not work out in a lot of ways'. Favor, which is like that oh shit moment, you know, in a plot where you're like, oh shit, this plan is not going according to plan.
Zinzi Brookbree:Hmm. How do you, how do you do that? Well, how do you include ghosts and vampires and cars while still making it feel grounded and realistic versus, I hate to continue to rag on Twilight, but like twilight, you still know is. Fantasy paranormal, There aren't agencies and blood banks supporting the vampires that are publicly known about, right? They're all, it's all secret society and hidden versus in Elatsoe. There's vampires and it's a curse, and it's known, and there's blood banks, and there's, you know, whole systems in the government that keeps track of who the vampires are and what stages they are at, or at least attempts to do. So, I just realized that having done the re-listen of like, oh, that's when they introduced Ronnie's boyfriend character that is the vampire. I'm blanking on his name, even though I just heard it like 10 minutes ago.
Katherine Suzette:Al.
Zinzi Brookbree:Al, thank you. in introducing him, they introduced the whole, Conversation of it's, it's a curse. It's foreign, it's not an American thing. It came over. anyway, it just, it was a really fun use of vampires. We're like, yes, they are blood suckers, but it's normalized and it's, they've got blood banks and it's not like this big horror thing. And there's even the option of if you don't want to stay a vampire there, you can pay to have the curse removed.
Sage Moreaux:I thought that was really Unusual.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:is some very, coveted thing in a vampire culture. Like if there is a cure, it's like, you know, the whole quest is to go find it. But unless it was just like, yeah, if you have enough money and you actually want to not be immortal,'cause there was benefits
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:a vampire, then you can for the cure.
Zinzi Brookbree:I particularly wanna say I, having just re-listened to the beginning of it, I had a slight misunderstanding, but, um, the first time I read it, I thought that her friend Jay had a crush on her, and then on this relist, I went, wait, Jay just broke up with his girlfriend. That's what he's doing at the bridge with the graffiti, right? Is trying to go put a lightning bolt through the now broken heart. so I was misreading part of their relationship and even with that misread, the first time I listened to it, I still was like, Jay's really cool. It's a good friendship. He's respectful. Like when he accidentally says, oh, it's a date. Like, he's like, wait, did I make it weird? I hope I didn't make it weird for you. And they like, they smoothed that out, right? It is nice to have a coming of age story that your coming of age doesn't revolve around. Somebody else, right? You're coming of age is just you coming into your own and coming into better understanding of your abilities. That's part of Allots Away's story. Her being asexual wasn't the point of the story. It is not, it's not her discovering that it's not other people coming to accept that there aren't any characters that are doing the, oh, you'll change your mind. You'll wanna have kids later. Right. Sage brought up in that first one that her gift is passed down not through, bloodline, like Jay's gift is with being, of the Oberon fairy line. So yes.
Katherine Suzette:the adorable like freckles and everything and like that live body.'cause he is a gymnast and like, I
Zinzi Brookbree:is a cheerleader
Katherine Suzette:Oh yeah. Yes. Oh, I loved that too.
Sage Moreaux:was amazing.
Katherine Suzette:And he didn't have to,
Zinzi Brookbree:as
Katherine Suzette:be non-binary or gay to fully enjoy that sport and to love doing what
Zinzi Brookbree:hm mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:thoroughly enjoyed that. I love that in a laso way, like they're genuine, supportive friends that accept each other's, preferences, whether that's sexual or romantic or gender or sport related or
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:they respect, you know, even their family secrets with the magic and things like that. There's no pushing, there's no prodding, there's no trying to pressure one's friends into changing or being, or coming alongside and doing something different than what is right for them. loved that, Darcy Little Badger represented that so beautifully, because I wanna see
Zinzi Brookbree:Hmm,
Katherine Suzette:that in this world.
Zinzi Brookbree:another highly recommend for a lot away is it's rife with healthy relationships as opposed to being full of these screwed up ones
Katherine Suzette:mm-hmm.
Zinzi Brookbree:Lots away isn't some traumatized teen, right? Who's running away from, x, y, Z problems or bad parenting or sibling death. She is got a healthy relationship with her parents. Her parents are supportive when she goes, I had a dream where'cause came and talked to me and said I was murdered by Abe Ellerton from the town of Willoughby. Dad looks it up on a map and goes, Willoughby is 30 miles from, where your cousin's school was. I believe you. We're gonna let the police do their job, but then also we're gonna set an anonymous tip. We're gonna follow up, we're gonna support you and go pursue this. I believe you, Jay came along and was like, oh, you think your cousin was murdered? Okay, I'm on board. what can I do from home, from the computer to research and to help you figure this out, Al and Ronnie, Ronnie is the older sister of, Jay, and she goes, well, I am in Al went to go search for this thing for you, and now he's missing and I gotta go find him. And you're telling me this is what the deal is. Okay. I'm gonna suit up and I'm gonna be ready to face this with you. Right? Like, it was just, support, support, support as well as you have. In the relationship with Lenore, this is the grieving widow new mom. She's got a baby, but she's having the appropriate reaction of going, you can speak to ghosts, you can bring him back. Bring him back. Let me talk to him. Let me say goodbye. My last conversation was, you know, do you want soup for dinner? Like, how awful and gut wrenching to, to be in a world where the option where, you know, you've got Vivian and Al who both have the ability to speak with ghosts and to raise ghosts, even if the only ones that they're supposed to is animals. Like that temptation as someone who's grieving to be able to have that conversation, that, closure, to have the person that you love back in some way like that is in there, that's part of the book. But it's handled in a way that doesn't make Lenore a monster, because that could have been the story, right? Lenore could have been like, I'm gonna bring him back no matter what. I'm gonna force it. And while she still does stuff in that direction, she's not ultimately the cause that brings Trevor's ghost back to haunt the town. like, that's all plausible. That f.
Sage Moreaux:cultural upbringing,
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:had a different understanding of the concept of bringing a ghost back. And so making her desire all the greater, and yeah, I mean that is, it would
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:to feel like you, you could see that person again if only your darn cousin would listen to you
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:bring the ghost back. I was gonna ask what you guys thought about this because, you were saying that there's all these healthy relationships and that the main character who is a teenager doesn't have like this angst and trauma and all of this kind of stuff. And I mean, there's the trauma of the cousin dying, but that's like specific to the plot, not something that she was
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:And I'm wondering if you think that a part of that is a bit of the nature of the fact that it's a murder mystery. And very often in a mystery situation with the detective character, they do not go through a big arc of change. she learned to trust her power and herself more fully by the
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:But she did not like trauma or her character arc. It wasn't fully a flat arc, but it was, it was not as big of an arc as maybe a story that's more of a coming of age story.
Zinzi Brookbree:That's valid.
Katherine Suzette:I think that it's also valid a lot of the times for us to read stories, especially ya, where the younger people are coming of age through difficulty because that is also pretty valid to a lot of experiences. However, I love that instead of strength coming from trauma, her strength is coming from the family. And yeah, that means that there isn't a great character arc in the sense that it's, very noticeable. but it is beautiful. All the same to witness a lots away, choose herself, choose her power, make the right choice.
Sage Moreaux:I thought that the belief in her cultural experience of being able to speak with ghosts even visit the land of the dead, even though she loved her cousin and she was devastated by his murder because he was cut off in the prime of his life. He had a new baby. He had many years ahead of him and he was murdered. So she wanted to bring the murderer to justice,
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:also, and there was grief, but she didn't have the same level of grief that the did.
Katherine Suzette:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:who maybe didn't have as deep seated of a, I don't remember if it went too deeply into her personal beliefs. I mean, it seemed like, you know, she knew the dead existed as like ghosts that came back.'cause she could see a lots, his dog. but for lots of way it was like, yeah. And when, someday when I die, then I will be reunited with Trevor and we will live together in that afterlife. Right.
Katherine Suzette:Hmm
Sage Moreaux:she was grieving for his death, there was a little bit of that continuing.
Zinzi Brookbree:There's a line. And I'm not gonna be able to bring it up and quote it from memory. but she even mentions, I will see you. But she kept herself off from saying, I'll see you soon.'cause she doesn't want to, curse herself basically with it happening too soon. I also thought it was really interesting culturally, and I'm assuming that this is a Lipan apache cultural thing. Is there that I'm not saying the name, taking away the pictures. Right. having a hidden burial place. I was just thinking about that'cause I think Lenoir I thought it was mentioned that she was maybe Hispanic. it just made me think about like the renda and that different cultural of, like, for them you would put all of the pictures of those who have passed and you would talk about them and tell their stories, and like those two things would be incomplete opposition.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:I loved how I fully expected Trevor to come back from the dead and be raised as a ghost. Like I felt like
Katherine Suzette:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:planted. There was a number of seeds that were planted. The party that they ended up going to was mentioned early in the story and I was like, oh, they're gonna end up at this party and that's gonna be this big fun kind
Katherine Suzette:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:You know, scene that's gonna come up. And I fully expected Trevor to be brought back from the dead, but I didn't how that would happen. Right. I loved that it was the, the son, the baby son who had the power that Al had had that, ancestral gift was the one who, you know, found his father in a dream in the, in the, you know, in the afterlife and touched him and brought him back. And it was through love. And it wasn't like this revenge or, you know, trying to hide
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:or a lot, so I'm making a mistake, or the, the grief, it was just like through the love, the innocent love of the child for the father. And I thought that was so beautiful. And then
Katherine Suzette:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:weren't really, couldn't be mad at the kid for that happening, I really loved that that was the triggering moment for the vengeful ghost being
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah, in lots of ways, reaction to the ghost too. Like she wasn't, had a very down to earth vibe with all of her reaction to the supernatural stuff,
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:kind of character was very engaging and. Said this before, I would happily read a whole series of al as a, you know, supernatural detective. dealing with different, you know, this was a very personal crime'cause it was a member of her family. I would hope that maybe she was dealing with crimes and not having to do with her family just for her own sake in the future. But, I could see that being so fun. And her demeanor was with the ghost was, you know, I think Katherine, it's similar to what you were saying. It wasn't this horrifying thing for this ghost to be brought back. everyone had told her that if he came back, he wouldn't be his real self. She expected that, but She wasn't really angry at him, she wasn't full of hatred towards this revenge ghost. She was like, Hey,
Katherine Suzette:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:you know, it's time. You gotta go back. we're done here.
Katherine Suzette:Ooh.
Sage Moreaux:Just go back. and she was very matter of fact about it. And I loved that, that was also like a very realistic feeling for how her character and her character's beliefs was described. That's how I would expect her to kind of act in that situation. It was emotional for her for sure, because it's her cousin's ghost. But she was ready for it because of her training from all the stories of sixth great grandmother and
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:mom and her dad, like her family heritage, her grandmother, She was capable of dealing with that ghost.
Zinzi Brookbree:So something that I wanted to, going back a little bit on what Sage said, where a la SOI is so calm about a lot of her, interactions with the ghostly stuff and the supernatural and things like that, right? And to me, a little bit of that comes specifically from her parents. And here's one of the lines that I highlighted because I just thought that this was something, really cool, but that I don't necessarily think about is this happens. after they learn, the parents learn about Trevor's death, right? And it's,"her father continued because he was capable of calm speech, practicing veterinary medicine, had not hardened his heart, but had had taught him how to restrain signs of pain." Because I do feel like sometimes for those people who have to deal with stressful situations, who have to deal with emotional things, right? they have to put on this, okay, I'm calm. I can handle this logically. We're not gonna bring the emotions into it. And it's not because they're unfeeling, right? They do feel pain, they do feel those things. They have just learned to work around it because there's still a job to do. It doesn't harder in their hearts. That was something cool and more often than interactions with, someone from the medical industry is someone who's like, oh, well this is a doctor who's a stuck up jerk and is rich. Right? Or it's like, that tends to be in romance novels or they go one of two ways. Either they're cold-hearted or they're a bleeding heart, Where everything affects them and they're crying in the closet.
Sage Moreaux:Well, what you just said, like the cold hearted doctor who's rich and whatever you, that was the bad guy, That was Abe
Zinzi Brookbree:Yep.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah,
Sage Moreaux:he had that snobbery and I'm so great and I have no capacity for empathy for anybody outside of my small close knit community of people, mostly because they love me and will pay me money and support my, my fame and rich lifestyle.
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm. He believes that his family line, that his gift right, is like God's gift to humanity. Like, it's the best thing this entire town is not only willing to give up their lives to protect his secret, to protect this, because of the trickle down effect of. The money that he brings in the, um, knowing. I mean, if your kid had a terminal illness and you could switch it with somebody that you didn't care about and your child could be healthy and have the rest of their life that would be, it's wrong. You can understand it. It's wrong though.
Sage Moreaux:Right. And you, I mean, if you have empathy for the concept of like humans and life, even though yes, it's your child, and of course that's devastating, but you're gonna put that on someone else's child
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:Then there was like, we're talking abstractly here, but
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:piece where they were putting it on people they thought were less than them by being non-white people,
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm. They were choosing the disenfranchised.
Sage Moreaux:Mm-hmm. Making it even worse, like bad enough that you were. Claiming that your life or the life of your loved one is worth more than someone else's life. But to then be targeting people based on their, you know, race or position in the world, it's like
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:appreciated the author for going there
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah. But so respectfully and kindly, even to the extent that she brought in, Teddy Roosevelt and gave the attack by the bear and
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:a comment about the things that he'd said about, native Americans as a whole and things like that. I thought that was interesting. It was subtle, but it made an impactful point. books don't have to grapple. strongly with the main point that they wanna get across, like the moral or ethical point necessarily. Sometimes subtle is stronger and pacts more punch
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:In this particular case, the subtlety its weapon and I think it's a beautifully wielded one.
Zinzi Brookbree:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:I appreciated that. Friend Jay was a white kid because it turned it not into a, like one racial group against another story. turned it into a power, story of
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:the people in power taking advantage of those with less power in society. I don't even remember if she went super in depth with like, there was definitely the understanding that throughout history, that town, which I guess was magically moving around maybe through use of the mushrooms, but they were basically moving around and putting their diseases onto whoever it was maybe the lip and Apache people In that community when they arrived there,
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:I think they said 80 years ago, or I can't remember how, 30 years. I don't remember how long they'd been in Texas. But before
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:think the town had started in New England. Presumably they were, putting the disease onto black people or super poor people or, people that were, not of their same background. And I thought
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:that was really well handled since she didn't just say, okay, my main characters are all from this one racial group and the bad guys are all from this other racial group. There was, a nice diversity. A diversity undertone, but it didn't feel like a fight.
Katherine Suzette:Mm.
Sage Moreaux:like, let's explore the nature of when people in power take advantage of others.
Zinzi Brookbree:Hmm mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:wonderfully handled.
Zinzi Brookbree:So, um, when. Ellie and her dad come into town at Willoughby. I wanted to comment on the foreshadowing that she does something. She does. Really early on the sign the state, Texas was recently added to the sign, right? She makes a comment about, oh, she wonders what was underneath that because, and that's like, that's an early hint that this town has moved around, that it wasn't always part of Texas. when Dr. Allenton comes to the funeral and talks to Ellie about, Kirby the Ghost dog, and she makes a comment, she's like, oh, it's a family secret. And he goes, I know all about those like that already. There is the, the planted of, oh, the thing that he's got going on, the thing that killed the cousin, right? Is this family secret? This lineage of, body swapping, injury swapping, right. it was interesting seeing just those early plants right towards the ends to foreshadow what comes at the end and, the reveal, of what it is that he's doing by the end of the story.
Sage Moreaux:foreshadowed a number of things. the party, she foreshadows the party by bringing, like they see a flyer about it or something like that, and then they end up
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:there was
Zinzi Brookbree:big gala.
Sage Moreaux:even the part that I loved so much when her mom, Vivian, when they're attacked by the vampire and they're in their car and the vampire's attacking them seems like that was a tense moment. Like, what's gonna happen?
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:faster than you. Stronger than you and out for blood. Right. you're trying to get the baby, the baby was in the car with them, like stress. the mom says, I know you're not welcome in my home, which I loved because that's such a traditional vampire, trait is having to be invited in. And then it was because that vampire's home was not America. That vampire's home was presumably Europe somewhere.
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:you know, that planted the idea that
Zinzi Brookbree:He had to run off of Lip and Apache land.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah. and then that vampire was actually from that area and, had been. Cursed many, generations ago. But I loved that, but there was like all of these really nice narrative elements that she either, brought up early on that played out very well later on.
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:classic thing where I always think authors should strive for of being unexpected, but inevitable.
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:felt like that. The story felt like that. And it was like I was saying that the, baby bringing the dad to life, like I expected Trevor to ghost to be risen. but I didn't expect the baby to do it. But that felt so perfect and, and, Darcy, little Badger, really. There was so many moments in the book where she. Beautifully wove together these elements and took advantage of things that she had laid out at the beginning. be very curious to know what her writing process is because, uh, it felt very thoughtfully laid out.
Zinzi Brookbree:another thing to go back on the foreshadowing. One of the great six stories contains that Great Six had made, dog toys for her dogs, right? the little rattle doll. And then when Kirby comes back and he's carrying one of those
Katherine Suzette:oh.
Zinzi Brookbree:just, um,'cause at, at first when I read it, I was like, where did, where did he get this? Did he, did he meet Great six. Six, great.
Katherine Suzette:Hmm.
Zinzi Brookbree:then with this re-listening and hearing, oh, it's embedded in one of those stories, like she makes those, that's for her ghost. So, so he absolutely, whatever that encounter was, Kirby got to meet and interact with sixth grade before getting sent back or maybe guided back to, to Ellie. In this particular circumstance, it was set up for us as readers to believe that like, here's this extra sign of approval, even from grade six who we've spent this whole book getting to hear stories about. And I just, appreciated that additional touch. Part of what I think all three of us love about this story, is that it is a book about stories. It is books about the knowledge imparted through story, the family connections built through story, right? But then there are also these lines that are just beautiful. and one that I highlighted that I wanted to bring up was, how long would it take for the earth to heal? When would the sap on the metal scarred tree harden into amber? It seemed odd that an act so violent and cruel could leave gemstones in its wake."
Sage Moreaux:I feel like we highlighted the same
Katherine Suzette:Chills.
Zinzi Brookbree:Also one of those bookend moments, the coyote woman the coyote people, is talked about, between her and her parents, early on in the story, and that they're rare, that they don't, show up very often and they stay hidden. and then her coming at the end and saying, oh, she stayed outta this town, but now she can be in this town. Right? Because at this point in the story, Ellie, has pulled the mansion, into the underworld along with Abe Allerton and has rid the town effectively of, the evil that was present, right? And now the coyote feels safe to be able to come back. Trevor asked her to keep his family safe and she's done that both in getting the justice for him and that Abe Allerton, get his comeuppance by all of the hungry spirits that are of the dead that he took the lives from. but also in that he's gone to a place in, even the town has gone to a place where it can no longer harm. Trevor's family. Boop, full circle. We touched on plot twist, we touched on the humor, we touched on, character arc. We touched on the world building. We touched on, how racism, was handled, how diversity was handled in, the course of the story. It delivered on its premise. it's a murder mystery, so plot twists, like there was never a. Abe Allerton was introduced as the villain, and it was just a matter of how do we prove that he did it? We talked about some favorite lines. the only thing that I, that I additionally could consider talking about was, the scene where Ellie goes, they stop at the gas station on the road trip, and she goes into the, gas station that has the fossil museum in the back, and the interaction she has with that clerk who's like, I'm watching you on the camera. and she has to get the receipt on the Post-it notes from who runs the museum right after she buys the fossil. And she's in the museum walking around doing the, here my hands are behind my back. I'm not spending too little time. I'm not spending too much time. Where are the camera? And like all of that internal dialogue that you have, when somebody has already been rude to you and suspicious of you because of how you look like. That was another moment of like, even though this is an alternate world, that racism, that mistreatment in the subtle ways, or not so subtle because it's being presented to us this way from Ellie's perspective where she's recognizing it's not subtle. Right. that interaction just. Sucks that it's still happening all the time.
Katherine Suzette:Absolutely.
Sage Moreaux:that it feels like if you are not in the position of experiencing something like that, you don't necessarily think about it.
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:to be brought up in that way and it was artfully written to where if you not. Regularly used to being in that position, you might be like, wait, what? I mean there was the internal dialogue, but with the receipt particularly, I was like, wait, what's going on? And then it came full circle and I was like, oh yeah. I read another book where there was something similar where there was two characters driving in a car and they were stopped to ask a police a question, just like innocently. And the person driving was a white person and the companion was a black person. And he was like, you cannot argue with the police. not with me in the car.
Zinzi Brookbree:Yep.
Sage Moreaux:moments where it's brought not just like the big thing of the villain being this big race,
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:you know,
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:but to have it be in the daily small interactions, I was so appreciative of that.
Katherine Suzette:it brought to mind for me when I was reading that scene, and I want to bring this back to like, this is a great representation of, how women go about their lives and we work extra hard to watch out for and maintain our safety.
Zinzi Brookbree:Yeah.
Katherine Suzette:and there are other commenters in the world who are like, you know, we're, we're not all like that and we're not this way or whatever. And like, same in this story. We're not all intentionally racist. We're not all going out there and being harmful and all that kind of thing. But that doesn't change the fact that Ellie needs to pay attention to these things because it's for her own safety. She needs the receipt in order to prove that she did not steal something because she knows that there is a good chance she will be asked for it later on. Because there is an assumption that because Ellie looks differently, she's from a different culture, that
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:she will be assumed. As, doing something wrong, you know, she's not where she's supposed to be or doing what she's supposed to do, and like, even in the library and things like that. I think that is a beautiful way of representing how the experience of one human or one gender, or one culture or whatnot, cannot necessarily be understood outside of things like a book or personal experience. And like, those are different levels of understanding. But
Zinzi Brookbree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:I think that books are how we build empathy. I think they're how we build compassion. I think they're how we build, a better world. I really do. It's, it's through story. It's through connection, empathy, That was done excellently. Like can we just say that every tiny thing that Darcy Little Badger did was amazing
Zinzi Brookbree:We're big fans, that brings us to the end of the episode for this one. Thank you so much for joining us. if you liked this, deep dive into a la away, give us a review. It's really helpful, for visibility and for people who are checking in out to know that we're good quality. outside of the podcast, we run monthly writing retreats as Book Dragon Ink As well as, I run weekly Zoom write-ins as Write With Me Zinzi Bree, You can find information about those in the show notes. We would love for you to check it out. Thank you so much for tuning in. Our February book, which is Cozy Romantic because February there should be romance, right? See you next time. Bye.
Sage Moreaux:That was fun.
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