The Intersection of Fantasy, Romantasy, and Smut: When Magic Meets Desire - Part 1

Smut in Fantasy: Mental Porn or Power Dynamics? | Book Dragon Banter

In this episode of Book Dragon Banter, we (Sage, Katherine, and Zinzi Bree) talk about smut and spice in fantasy and romantasy—what it’s doing in the story, how we define terms like “mental porn” and “power dynamics,” and why consent and character/plot relevance matter to us. We also touch on where lines get drawn around monster romance and fantasy anatomy, share a few book examples, and wrap up.

BDB Fable Fantasy Focused Book Club: https://fable.co/club/diverse-fantasy-with-zinzi-bree-271215645134?referralID=f9KdWh3wtd

February’s Book: How to Find a Nameless Fae by A.J. Lancaster

Author Site: https://ajlancaster.com/books/other-projects/how-to-find-a-nameless-fae/

Podcast links:

Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/bookdragonbanter 

TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/

Other links:

Book Dragon Ink Retreats: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/ink-retreats

Write With Me, Zinzi Bree - Substack: https://writewithmezinzibree.substack.com/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Katherine: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/

Books Mentioned:

Alchemized by SenLinYu

Lights Out by Navessa Allen

He Sees You When You’re Sleeping by Alta Hensley

Feathers So Vicious by Liv Zander

Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros

Twilight Series by Stephanie Meyer

Ice Planet Barbarian Series by Ruby Dixon

Quicksilver by Callie Hart

Brimstone by Callie Hart

Morning Glory Milking Farm by C. M. Nascosta

Bride by Ali Hazelwood

The Alanna Series by Tamora Pierce

The Harper Hall Trilogy by Anne McCaffrey 

00:00 Smut at the Dentist

00:46 Podcast Intro

01:39 Why Talk About Spice

02:46 Defining Key Terms

04:05 Smut vs Erotica

05:48 Romantasy and Plot

08:45 Consent and Icks

10:08 Extreme Scenes and Curiosity

11:29 Disability and Realism

15:54 Fantasy Anatomy in Bed

19:30 Monster Romance Line

22:08 Shapeshifter Boundaries

23:24 Vampire Versus Werewolf

24:23 Fae Takeover Trend

25:21 Monster Romance Details

27:44 Cleanup And Aftercare

30:37 Messy Realistic Sex

33:06 Scent Power Dynamics

34:32 Early Spice Memories

39:52 Consent For New Readers

41:01 Book Club And Farewell

Transcript

Zinzi Brookbree 0:00

I can't remember if I told you guys about this, but the last time I went to my dentist, right, I was driving a smut scene happened, right as I was pulling into the parking lot and turning off the car. So I had to just sit in my car and be like, thank goodness I'm early so I can just get my face straightened. So I'm not walking in there with this major smirk on my face having just listened to this hot. But it was like, I do not need to go in there with like a smile semi stuck on my face and no way to explain why I look like that. I love those moments I'm like absolutely live it up to myself That's what I say I am Like they they can question all day long Welcome to book Dragon Banter, uh, podcast, where three aspiring authors talk all things books. We're fantasy focused, but we are not fantasy exclusive. Join Sage, Katherine, and me Zinzi Bree as we banter about all things bookish, We're so glad you're here.

Sage Moreaux 1:01

This is what I'm missing out on by not doing audio books because I

Zinzi Brookbree 1:06

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 1:07

I usually don't listen to audio books. I occasionally do. So generally when I'm reading these scenes, so I'm not driving, I'm not out in public. So often, maybe I'm out in public reading, but a little different, much less likely.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:23

we are late starting this recording mostly because of me. I had like a full on mini anxiety depressive episode this morning, and even just getting to sit and talk with these ladies about some silly stuff for a little while has totally lifted my mood. So thank you. You guys are the best. Today we are talking about smut, spice, whatever you wanna call it. In fantasy sometimes most often in romantasy as well. I think I have somewhere the name of this episode being, what smut in fantasy. Is it mental porn or is it Power dynamics? And that's part of what we're gonna get into. Yes, spoilers maybe for the books that we're gonna talk about, we don't have specific books listed but if it's a book that I've read that has smut and that's relevant to the conversation, it will get mentioned. So that might be spoiled for you. Check the show notes. That's where we usually list any books that we mention by name, and content warning. yeah, I don't know how explicit or raunchy this is gonna get. Yeah, like the, the title should say if this is appropriate for you or not. So for you are forewarned foreplay. Nope. This is just, my brain is just gonna bounce to just whatever inappropriate word is closest to the one that came outta my mouth. It'll be a good time. Yep. Before diving in, I did want to help, define how we're using some of these terms. As I mentioned, mental porn, we're using that more as a shorthand for fantasy fulfillment, escapism and emotional rehearsal. It's not something to that means cheaper or lesser. it's just a tool that stories have always used.

Sage Moreaux 3:06

Okay.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:07

As for power dynamics, that's, a shorthand for narrative tension control, vulnerability choice, consent, and the imbalances in power. It's not automatically toxic. But it is something to interrogate and not to assume. There's definitely some circumstances where with one cultural upbringing, you would look at a scenario and consider it toxic and someone else might consider it appropriate based on their, worldview. So we're not here to judge any of that. And we're not asking whether smut is good or bad, we're just asking what it's doing in fantasy. Why it's in the fantasy books that we're reading and, what its purpose is. Maybe even. How to achieve some of the things that it's doing as far as, exciting readership, which is one of the things it definitely seems to be doing right, particularly in the romantasy arena as opposed to just fantasy. fantasy has always been about the imagined experience. Sex is also one of those things that, I mean, that's part of why the porn industry exists, right? Because there are people who want to imagine their sexual fantasies and see them played out visually. Now I would put erotica as the equivalent, as far as in the literary version of porn. I would not put, explicit high smut scenes from a romantasy as a direct correlation with pornography. Like that's, to me, that's erotica. There is a difference because there is plot in romantasy, or there should be, there is plot in fantasy in particular, and that should be more important than the romantasy plot. And that's one of our defining differences between a romantasy and a fantasy is the amount of plot dedicated to the romantasy relationship. Do you ladies agree with what I've said so far, or do you think you have a different stance?

Katherine Suzette 5:07

No need. think I share a different opinion just maybe a different perspective but it I might have way of describing some of it So when I discuss erotica I discuss it as written solely for the purpose of inciting emotional and physical sensations in the reader of that book especially when it comes to the explicit content Whereas when I think of smut in a book I do think of it on the spice level and anything beyond five i I will probably Think of it more as erotica but I require like plot and character dynamics and stuff outside of the sex it to qualify for me out as being outside of erotica

Sage Moreaux 5:48

I wanted to, clarify a little bit of my personal definition around stuff.

Zinzi Brookbree 5:52

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 5:53

for me, romantasy is often also is heavily plot driven, but the plot is a romance plot. So if you think of like your traditional romance novel and how it has an established reader expectation around

Zinzi Brookbree 6:08

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 6:08

after and meet cute and all, everything in between. To me the romantasy is a romance plot, first set in a fantasy setting. And whether or not there is spice at all is secondary. So I think a lot of romantasy these days does have a pretty high spice content'cause people seem to like that. But I don't know that it's inherently required. I think you can have clean, romantasy, and so it is still plot driven. I think of erotica also as a little bit more. There can still be plot, but I often think of erotica as on the sex, but sometimes also more emotional, like literally emotional,

Zinzi Brookbree 6:48

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 6:49

I think that there's like a wide gamut of is it just straight up a sex scene or is there emotional dynamics that are happening around the sex? And are you going into characters' feelings around discomfort in the situation that they're in? Or a, I don't know. I haven't read a ton of literary erotica recently, but when I read some in the last number of years, I feel like it, it can just be like a pornography where it's just straight up sex, but it can also be more because in books you do get that more of that character interiority. So I think that comes through in erotica also. But if we're talking fantasy specific, so I think like in High Spice romantasy, a lot of times, like it is plot driven still, but there will be scenes where it's this is just a scene of sex almost. If you cut the rest of the book out and had that's like a little mini porno right there

Zinzi Brookbree 7:44

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 7:45

So I think it varies in that regard. my personal preference is as long as the. Sex is plot, dependent, then I am fine with it. I don't care if it's a lot of sex on the page, as long as it makes sense for the plot and for the character development. And it's not just thrown in there to like excite readers. And for me, if I'm reading a story for the story, then I want it to make sense for the point of the story. some authors do that better than others,

Katherine Suzette 8:16

And I know a few minutes ago I said I don't really read erotica but I think after listening to your I think I do every once in a while pick up one that I would classify in that way I think that my definition that like it's written for the purpose of the sex scenes still applies for me and like the way that I classify them I will read the eroticas and stuff when there is external and relationship development. I don't enjoy If I pick up an erotica that doesn't have that Or some of my icks are gonna come up and then it's just not comfortable And the minute I'm not comfortable I'm not going to experience whatever the author wanted me to experience when I read it

Zinzi Brookbree 9:03

Unless I wanted you to feel, uncomfortable'cause some authors go for that in there.

Katherine Suzette 9:08

Yeah I guess especially when it comes to like any kind of kink introductions and stuff like that

Zinzi Brookbree 9:14

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 9:15

my biggest ick that we might talk about later as well but it's non-con and dup con so that's non-consent and dubious consent

Zinzi Brookbree 9:23

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 9:23

think that books that Don't have that pre whatever The uncomfortable situation is It makes me so uncomfortable that I will not continue if there is like talk and consent and all that kind of thing and then the uncomfortable stuff happens Oh okay Maybe

Zinzi Brookbree 9:40

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette 9:40

depends a lot on the book I'm remembering like Alchemize right now There was a lot that made me really uncomfortable

Zinzi Brookbree 9:44

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 9:45

it still felt worth it for like getting to the plot stuff later on and then I could find more comfort But I definitely I wasn't like sexually tantalized by a lot that was going on I was just uncomfortable

Zinzi Brookbree 9:57

I think that one's meant for you to be uncomfortable.

Sage Moreaux 10:01

Yeah,

Zinzi Brookbree 10:01

Mm-hmm. It was not romanticizing the circumstance.

Katherine Suzette 10:04

Okay good then I experienced what I was supposed to experience I think

Zinzi Brookbree 10:08

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 10:08

of books right now there are some pretty big ones out

Zinzi Brookbree 10:11

like

Katherine Suzette 10:11

something about like pill switch or no that's not it like something about A light switch

Zinzi Brookbree 10:17

Do you mean lights out?

Sage Moreaux 10:18

a stalker out I've heard about

Zinzi Brookbree 10:21

The one, not fantasy, but that one is yeah. a stalker and social media with a mask. And it's supposed to be pretty funny from what I hear. I have, it's one of the ones where I gave, he sees you when you're sleeping a try over Christmas, and that was my first foray into a, into a stalker romance. However, I have a, a different book that is fantasy, that I think the title's like Feathers So Vicious or something. It's currently sitting in my holds from the library. It is fantasy. And there is, what I remember hearing about it is the main character is in a, it it there's a sex scene where she basically gets ripped in half during the course of intercourse and he heals her magically and they keep going. And I was like I want to read this book just to like understand how that's like how, How did you make that sense? How did you make readers still like, I like it at, with that kind of scenario that happens. I'll let you know. I was hoping to read that book before we recorded this, but I didn't get to it. My, my dance card was full. Okay so people with my EDS condition that's Ehlers-Danlos syndrome For people who don't know People with my condition often have Bedroom stories to share or questions to ask and things like that because Like ripping tearing prolapsing What is it dislocations all that kind of thing are like super common even in the most like vanilla of interplay And it can make the people in the context feel really uncomfortable And there's a lot of things that go alongside that So I wonder if with this book some of that isn't Tied into some of the like pains and things that might happen in a situation between somebody who has A disability like that And like it gets in the way So if I were to dislocate And it's like really bad and I like tore a hamstring while we're at it or whatever then to have the guy like heal me up and then we can still go back to it instead of everything stops and now it all becomes like the oh day kind of moment Like Maybe that would make that scene make sense Can I ask, have to let us know is that part of like with, because you've made a couple comments before about Fourth Wing and you being like, there's just seem some things as far as practical practicability, right? With fourth Wing, so is that are the bedroom, the sex scenes, one of those things where it's like, if Violet is experiencing these breaking her body moments in or in fight scenes, how is that not also being shown in the sex scenes? Is that. Yes absolutely That did bother me And I was like okay And they're slamming each other all around the room but we also know that she can stand up too fast and pass out Anybody with our condition And so I have opinions about the Fourth Wing representation but Yeah that did bother me when it came to the intercourse because I was like this sex ain't reasonable with her body. it's one thing to go visit the healer. Like after you've had, you just went and did a whole fight thing and everybody's beaten up and did fighting. But if you have to go see the healer after having had sex because you threw your arm out or something during, Yeah that's,

Katherine Suzette 13:35

man, it's one of those things. Violet might not have it to the degree that some of the people in my community do it may not affect her as much in all the same ways EDS is one of those conditions where it is a very much a spectrum I was thinking that

Sage Moreaux 13:50

with Fourth Wing also because she does it's like we could do an entire episode on this topic but there is it, serves the book when, it makes sense to serve the book for, dramatic purposes. To have her feel like injured or powered through it at that moment, and then it's quickly forgotten at other times, is how I felt about her disability through the story. Part is very much he doesn't think, like he knows that she is got this stuff going on. He doesn't think to be gentle with her or they're just so caught up. I think that's what happens a lot of times in these, scenes is that they're so caught up, they're so passionate with each other that yeah, they're against the wall and throwing things around.

Zinzi Brookbree 14:29

Lighting the curtains on fire with lightning.

Sage Moreaux 14:32

Yeah, and okay, so because the passion is so intense, which plays in a little bit to the idea of the escapism or the seeing our fantasies come to life, right? Like sex that amazing is, demonstrated through these magical elements that

Zinzi Brookbree 14:49

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 14:50

so yeah, if she's ripped in half because it's so amazing. It was an accident. Still is a little suspect to me, I hate to say that. It reminds me of Twilight though. There was like in Twilight when they. have sex and he's a vampire and she's still human. Like they have sex and she's all beaten up afterwards because he's as a vampire is so much stronger than her and like he can't and like refuses to have sex with her again.

Zinzi Brookbree 15:16

I mean, if you're concerned about hurting your partner because you're in a moment of passion and about to lose control of your your strength, like that's perfectly reasonable in my opinion.

Sage Moreaux 15:27

yeah. then to not wanna do it again is a reasonable thing as a caring, caring partner.

Zinzi Brookbree 15:33

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 15:34

I would think I am now very curious to hear how this, healing mids sex scene works out.

Zinzi Brookbree 15:40

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 15:41

do either of the people have remorse afterwards and are like, no, we're not gonna go at it again. Or we have to do something different'cause that wasn't okay. Or are they just it's cool'cause we have healing powers, so we can just be as rough as we want.

Zinzi Brookbree 15:54

there is something to be said though, like, I do remember reading, in the, in the Dragon Shifter series, I think I mentioned in, in a previous episode. The stories where like the human girls parts aren't big enough to take the size of their partner's equipment. That book in particular I just ha I'm gonna use magic to make room in your body for

Katherine Suzette 16:18

the Use the magic to shrink the junk right. Why isn't it that, why isn't using the magic to the on your she have to own? to accommodate him

Zinzi Brookbree 16:34

granted that was also the book that had, my first introduction to, nodding as part of like the, the sex scene, which is a fantasy element, right? Or, in, Ruby Dixon's, barbarian series. They have like a little horn on top of their penis for like clitoral stimulation basically is what that's for. But most of the time when the women first see the guys naked, they're like, what? What is that? That looks like it's hard. That looks like it's gonna hurt. Whatever. Anyway, I do like those books. I will say, I think Ruby Dixon did an excellent job with the agency that the women have in those books. I binged through like the first five books because they are, they're that like potato chip, yummy, anyway, they also they're blue, they also have horns. And I'm trying to remember if the horns for some of the guys are like, having those touched or held onto are pleasurable or for if the women, if it's just that's a convenient, here I'm gonna hold onto this while you're banging me

Sage Moreaux 17:35

Nice

Zinzi Brookbree 17:35

as opposed to Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 17:37

Because in a fantasy world are you in the wild? What? You don't have a bedpost or whatever to grab onto,

Zinzi Brookbree 17:42

For example, if you're reading, Sarah J Mass and it's the ACOTAR series, right? Rhysand is basically, he's a human looking guy with powers a really attractive human looking guy, he doesn't, he's got tattoos from what I remember. He doesn't have horns, he doesn't have an extra body parts stuff going on, and he's Oh, okay. Wings. wings

Sage Moreaux 18:04

magically disappear them.

Zinzi Brookbree 18:06

So they don't count in my opinion.

Sage Moreaux 18:07

natural state. He has wings, but he can magically disappear them

Zinzi Brookbree 18:11

make him go away, can lay on his back

Sage Moreaux 18:15

sexually sensitive He often doesn't like to have them like it. It's a weakness in a way. The wings are like, they're a strength'cause you can

Zinzi Brookbree 18:22

well.

Sage Moreaux 18:23

they're a weakness in the sense that they're highly sensitive

Zinzi Brookbree 18:25

They'd also be really vulnerable, right? Like when you're on the ground and you're not up flying, like if someone puts a tear in one of those, you're grounded.

Sage Moreaux 18:33

Exactly. So he keeps them, he is one of the ones who has enough magical powers to keep them

Zinzi Brookbree 18:39

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 18:39

don't know, into the portal world where you keep all your extra stuff, As only rayan can disappear there.

Zinzi Brookbree 18:45

Versus, Greenbriar the Black, the Cruel Prince, Cardin. Greenbriar. He's Faye and he's got a tail all the time, like the tail doesn't go away. And I do remember seeing comments about people being like, I couldn't get over that. He had a tail. Like that shouldn't be part of do you not actually understand real, like folklore around the Faye, him still being super beautiful and just having a tail is kind of the minimum versus the level of grotesque he could have otherwise been.

Sage Moreaux 19:14

one of the He was one of the princes and one of the brothers had like horns

Zinzi Brookbree 19:17

mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 19:18

So there were different, animalistic body parts and yeah, he

Zinzi Brookbree 19:21

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 19:21

It hidden,

Zinzi Brookbree 19:23

mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 19:23

maybe

Zinzi Brookbree 19:24

Oak, the, the half brother right, has Cloven hooves. And there's the series about him, I find it interesting in fantasy, and romantasy, all of that. At what point do you draw the line and say, this is now a monster romance Because technically I'll vam Vampire Twilight should be, he's a vampire. A vampire is a classic monster. Or does monster automatically mean that it has to be like it's a snake person, it's a lion person, or that those alistic body parts are used during intercourse and that's what makes it a monster romance. Like what's, what tur, what takes it from, oh, this is regular fantasy over into now it's this other thing that then can be lumped in with more of the, kink versions of spice,

Sage Moreaux 20:23

I feel like

Zinzi Brookbree 20:23

spicy books.

Sage Moreaux 20:24

I don't know if I've ever read any categorized as Monster Romance. I don't know if I've ever read any of that, but I feel like there's this line where they are still really attractive in a human way. But have these components, whether it's a tail or wings or horns or whatever that make, you're totally right about the vampire thing, but, I. But vampires still generally in a like romance version of a vampire are very

Zinzi Brookbree 20:53

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 20:54

look like really beautiful humans, right? And it's only when they're, going to feed a lot of times that like their teeth grow and they get like a creepy look,

Zinzi Brookbree 21:04

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 21:04

to original vampires or vampires in other series where they are less human, and are more looking like corpses basically. Yeah, good question.

Zinzi Brookbree 21:14

I haven't, I haven't read into the the Omega verse or more of those ones, but from my understanding is you're either having sex when you're both in your human form or you're having sex both as wolves, but. Generally, I don't think that there's the in-between state, right? Where you're getting a, the wolf's, equipment in the female, like that's, I feel like that one would be the outlier version of those stories.

Sage Moreaux 21:47

It leans.

Katherine Suzette 21:47

if that's because it encroaches on people's comfort around like when is it considered like monster romance or Bestiality. with special abilities romance versus yeah Versus bestiality Mm-hmm. I have read some of the Omega verse stuff where I df some things because of that but Like the ears come up the tails come up like that moment where like they're trying to hold onto control and like the fur ripples and things like that and As far as I that I remember anything my brain has retained They have either been in full human form or full animal form And then the animal form I don't think I've read anything where they like on the page go into that Mm-hmm. They just might refer to it that's that one is an off screen kind of a interaction

Sage Moreaux 22:37

Because I think

Katherine Suzette 22:38

that if that were like dramatically on all on page I might think of that as bestiality as opposed to human.

Sage Moreaux 22:44

But you can also imagine that in, I'm going to say real life, but obviously this is all fantasy.

Zinzi Brookbree 22:51

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 22:51

it doesn't actually exist. But in a situation where you are in love with someone and you have two forms, like where does that line get drawn?

Zinzi Brookbree 22:59

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 23:00

But if you actually love that person and you love them in their animal form, I would think in reality you wouldn't necessarily draw that line unless it was a question of like I said, safety or something like that.

Zinzi Brookbree 23:11

No.

Sage Moreaux 23:12

far as reading and accepting, it does seem like that's too close to bestiality. But then, what is, it's really an interesting, like where you draw the line around what it is that excites you about this. Yeah, I prefer generally the vampire treat, the like, and for me it's because they are charming, they're aristocratic. There's like these elements of culture that I lean towards, I

Zinzi Brookbree 23:39

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 23:40

them in a dapper suit versus like the ripping the shirt. That's fine. I'm not, I'm also not a, fan of the lumberjack genre of romance.

Zinzi Brookbree 23:49

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 23:50

farmer, lumberjack kind of romance. That's just, that's not, the, like in the ballroom style. Thing. And so then I think vampire leans more in that direction. You could see a vampire showing up to a ball and fitting in, whereas I don't see a werewolf showing up and fitting in.

Katherine Suzette 24:10

Yeah the expectations around the trope certainly do follow that who's into which one the vampire or the werewolf is like this such interesting psychology associated with all of these things I love these conversations

Sage Moreaux 24:23

Yeah, and I was gonna say like, same thing with like expanding beyond the vampire and werewolf to the Faye creatures with the tails or the horns or the wings

Zinzi Brookbree 24:32

Faye really is the new vampire right now.

Sage Moreaux 24:34

yeah.'cause they got the like hot kind of cold,

Zinzi Brookbree 24:38

aristocratic, like all the things that you listed count.

Sage Moreaux 24:43

Very charismatic. But they don't drink your blood. Although I did read, Cali Hart's, Quicksilver and Brimstone, I read those two books and both Faye and Vampire in that.

Zinzi Brookbree 24:55

Different one.

Sage Moreaux 24:56

both worlds is what you could say.

Zinzi Brookbree 24:59

take your word for it.

Sage Moreaux 25:00

I, I love fantasy, I love like magic and that kind of

Zinzi Brookbree 25:03

Okay.

Sage Moreaux 25:05

it's interesting when it starts going into these more elements of makes you magical is almost like a more nature connection with your physical form. I didn't even think bestiality was one of the questions we were planning on talking about today.

Katherine Suzette 25:20

Yeah. Nope.

Zinzi Brookbree 25:21

Like I knew I wanted to bring up Monster romances because having read a Morning Glory, Milky Milking Farm, which I've brought up before, right? That one is a monster romance. The monster is a Mina tar. And in the sex scenes, it is described when he is licking her parts, right? Like he has a cow nose, he has a wide cow tongue with that, with that texture. So that, like, that one is full on. his face has in human parts that are then interacting with her private parts in human ish ways, right? But that the sensations that they would bring up would be different because it is different than human. So there was, there's books like

Sage Moreaux 26:09

Does the author

Zinzi Brookbree 26:10

there.

Sage Moreaux 26:10

that in detail or not really.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:12

Yeah. Like the, the female lead. Like she thinks about that being different, versus past experience and, it's not shied away from that. That is part of the story. He is a mino tar, he's got mino tar part, she's having to grab onto horns. His tackle box is ex, like one of the largest ones she works on at the farm. As far you'll see on TikTok, they'll be like when his junk is described or the hands can't fit Like the way around or what size is that? Like that was part of that story. the way that that one was written, it was still, even though there were things that are normal icks for me in the context of the book and some of the interactions, none of it was so ick that I had to DNF. Right. I was able to like, okay, this bodily flu, like that whole book is basically about bo bodily fluids getting collected into milk jugs, but it was handled clinically. So I was like, if that is handled clinically, I am not bothered because it's all, it's put away in a milk jug. It's blah, blah, blah. Versus, a little bit of a spinoff I was like wait this is strange versus later when they're not at the milking farm and they're actually in his home or her home and having sex. And he pro he produces enough to fill multiple milk jugs. And her body has to either take that or they have to plan ahead with towels and blankets. That's part of, and that was part of it that I appreciated, is that they're like, okay, this is the reality of your body and what it does. And we have to be prepared on how to handle that. I appreciate that. In the context of sex scenes versus the, Yeah Oh, we're just, we're so passionate. We're gonna rip clothes, we're gonna bang each other. And basically you've destroyed a room in the process of who cleans that up afterwards. Does he clean the room up or does the woman clean up the room? That's just gonna be, it's, yeah. If it's a aristocratic, vampire romance, right. Except for the stories where they're like, nobody goes in my room because I am such a loner and everybody's afraid of me because they think I'm a murderer. But really secretly I am, I am just a teddy bear on the, because so many of the books are like that, right? We're like, they're secretly a teddy bear on the inside, even though they're absolutely murderers. Are they cleaning their own room? Is some poor servant going in there terrified and cleaning the room?

Sage Moreaux 28:32

It, depending on how much magic you have, you just do the, like the magic

Zinzi Brookbree 28:36

Oh, pre presentation. Yeah. I've mended everything I want that like would be awesome in, in real life. The, Mm-hmm there's oh, if you want a superpower, I wanna be invisible. I wanna fly, I wanna time. There's those big things being invisible could get real awkward or inconvenient, especially if you have to go around naked, right? But if I had the magic powers of mending or just like instant clean, how It's such a little thing. But if that might be what I would request of, a magic if it's not healing, which also comes with its own problems of if anybody finds out you have the ability to heal, no one's gonna hunt you down to be like, you have perfect cleaning skills that can magically clean a room. Like your life is not in danger. But if you get healing abilities where someone finds out you could heal cancer, you can take away a brain tumor, somebody in power is gonna have that illness and come after you.

Sage Moreaux 29:30

Hmm. Or, you know, these, these people who are actively destroy destroying rooms through their sexual acts might really want you to come live and clean

Zinzi Brookbree 29:39

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 29:40

do the cleaning.

Katherine Suzette 29:41

Reminded again through this like of what I said with violet from Fourth Wing and like the non-reality of it and then also what Sage what you said Sometimes like especially for people with disabilities we like to see it represented on the page but we also wanna be able to have the fantasy where everything is functional and we could do the banging around the room and everything like that And it all works out just fine So like maybe that is why the scene plays out that way But I do appreciate when there is some kind of intentional thought around like what you said ZSI with Morning Glory Milking Farm where they prepare with like towels and blankets and things like that I think It shows care. are reading this who Yeah Who want that pre and post care kind of thing And like side note the aftercare scenes with when the men are the ones who do the cleanup Always preferred opinion

Sage Moreaux 30:36

One of the things I really like. So Allie Hazelwood, I've only read a few of her books, but I feel like she does a good job and she did write bride, and I haven't read the new spinoff of that or

Zinzi Brookbree 30:46

mate.

Sage Moreaux 30:46

I think, there is nodding in that one, but she handles it in this way, like their bodies are not necessarily super compatible and she writes a lot of romance that is not fantasy oriented also.

Zinzi Brookbree 30:59

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 30:59

the sex scenes are, not perfect. The people are, they wanna have sex. They're physically attracted to each other. It's consensual, but it's messy. It's whatever awkward scenario one of the characters has going on, impacts, whether it's like a social anxiety thing or they're on some spectrum, or in the case of bride, like one's a vampire and one is a werewolf and he has like the penis that does swells up and does the nodding right. And so that their bodies are not meant to engage in this way. And it, and she shows the challenges and the discomfort. And it's not like a discomfort in the sense that it feels like an ick, at least for me, it was more a discomfort of sometimes this is a reality. but it's still showing that sex isn't always like this perfect. everybody knows to touch each other in exactly the right way. There's a learning curve, especially

Zinzi Brookbree 31:54

Oh, those make me so

Sage Moreaux 31:55

And she does, so she does, I'm sure she's not the only author who does that, but she does a really good job of it's still sexy, but it's a little bit rough at first and it takes some time and it feels very re relatable.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:06

As in the sexes rapper, as in the working through it can be difficult.

Sage Moreaux 32:10

Working through it is, can be difficult and like that there's communication needs to be involved. the communication is required to figure out what the other person likes, that you don't just know it immediately. Are you both so that so good? Or one of you is so good at sex that it just like magically is the most amazing thing ever. And that kind of stuff that Bo is where I, if I wanna read something like that, it's probably not gonna be in a fantasy novel.'cause I like to read fantasy for the fantasy and the magic and the world building. And so I don't I want the scenes to be more have communication, be like an emotional attachment sex scene. And I don't want it to just be like, I could smell'em across the room. And our

Zinzi Brookbree 32:55

Oh

Sage Moreaux 32:55

scents we're like so compatible. And now, and then I'm like, all of a sudden I'm grinding on him and yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 33:01

Sorry

Sage Moreaux 33:04

Yeah. thank you.

Zinzi Brookbree 33:07

I don't need the vampire or the were wolf across the room to be thinking about my bits and how I'm smelling in the Die over here.

Sage Moreaux 33:15

And especially if it's one cure has that capacity and the other one does not talk about power dynamics, when you have the human who

Zinzi Brookbree 33:22

So

Sage Moreaux 33:22

have all of those senses and then the person that they're faded to be mated to or, which is one of my peeves, or just is the person they're gonna end up in the relationship with Right. Can smell that they're turned on, can smell that they can need a bath. I don't know, like everything.

Katherine Suzette 33:42

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 33:43

And there is a thing like pheromones is real

Katherine Suzette 33:45

bad

Sage Moreaux 33:46

But when it's imbalanced like that,'cause usually it's not that they both smell each other, it's usually that the man can smell the woman and everybody else in the castle or wherever they are also tell that she,

Zinzi Brookbree 33:58

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 33:59

had sex that she wants to.

Zinzi Brookbree 34:01

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 34:02

yeah. It's often a, to me uncomfortable power dynamic.

Katherine Suzette 34:07

Okay so there is interesting side note that I've thought about with that when Men are turned on it is Hope in versions of being turned on right But they'll get a hard on Mm-hmm. they do have that visual element that if people are staring really hard they can figure it out But so maybe it is

Sage Moreaux 34:26

The pants are tight enough.

Katherine Suzette 34:27

All of them in their leather flight pants. That must be so uncomfortable.

Zinzi Brookbree 34:32

I was, thinking back to my reading journey. I know that there's a lot of adult women now who are experiencing and reading fantasy and romance because they went through the gateway of reading ACOTAR first, right? Like they, that was the opening to, okay, I like fantasy. That was not my experience. I grew up with fantasy, but I was thinking back like what was my, at what ages and what books did I get exposed to some level of spice or smut or those different things in the books that I was reading growing up. And the earliest ones that I remember that made an impression on me was, the Alanna series by Tamora Pierce. Alana is. she disguises herself as a boy to train as a night, and she ends up falling in love with and sleeping with Jonathan, one of her friends who also is the prince and the eventual king of Toal. Right. He finds out her secret, he keeps it secret. She's able to continue and becomes a knight and becomes one of the first lady nights. You know, she gets to no longer hide that identity. But like there is, he carries her to bed and there's, I feel like I remember scenes that were conversation of after the act where they were in bed and like getting dressed, but then continuing a conversation. Or there was the, we're going to bed and him carrying her into the room, right? I think I read those in, in middle school. From there, the other ones that I remember were, and McCaffrey's, dragon Song, dragon Drums, dragon Singer. I'm probably mixing up that order, but in the last one, Melanie. Not Melanie. Mel. It's almost Melody like. Her name is a little weird. That's why I keep saying it, but getting it wrong. Anyway, she, has dragons that she is attuned to and can hear in her mind and they, in like their emotions, influence her emotions and when her. She has a little fire lizard, golden dragon is ready to mate that affects her. And when that dragon goes and mates, she is on a boat with the guy that she likes who also has a dragon that is compatible with hers. And like, so it is not shown on page, but implied that their dragons go inmate and they go and sleep together. And that actually springboards their relationship because they'd been dancing around liking each other, but not doing anything about it. For, most of that book. if I'm gonna add a fantasy element to a sexual scene where I'm bonded with a dragon and that heightens the ma and I think maybe fourth wing has this too, right? Where like their mating then affects you and it heightens your emotions. And design like that to me is a reasonable, the hormones of another creature or magical thing is happening and taking over your ability to be more reasonable and considerate in, in a stage when you otherwise would. That's actually where I appreciate more than one sex scene in that character's story arc, right? Like, here's the. You do it because the hormones are forcing you from whatever magic thing is happening. But then after that experience, if you choose to, it's your choosing. Here's the, here's the way that things have changed because it's a choice and there's, a different level of consent going on and mutual understand, right? That's, that appeals to me to see both versions of that happen in a story. But I was trying to think like after that it would be, twilight and it happening in the,'cause I couldn't, I didn't think that Edward and Bella had sex until they were married. She's still human. But, and that's because of, the author's beliefs. Like she made them wait till marriage. Wherein other books where authors had different beliefs, that might have not have been the case and that might have entered the story sooner. Like that's, but like those are the levels of exposure to those scenes. But none of those are, none of them are hard or heavy spice scenes or whatever. Versus now it seems like, ya, readers are entering and their first introduction is a cord of thorns of Roses, which was originally listed as a YA book with. Aggressive sex scenes, in my opinion, because faa, she gets bit by what's his name during the spring, right? Damn on Tris, whatever. Tamlin, a tris sorry. It's from that YouTube video that just like never gets his name right. The entire thing. And it's my favorite bit from that from that, here, let me explain the storyline. I dunno Yeah, it's amazing. but that's like a much more aggressive and like that dynamic right between Tamlin and Farrah is completely unhealthy and, red flags all around. And I don't know if I had read that as a 17-year-old, I would've been naive and I would not have had the critical thinking skills to go my experience at that point in my life was still so limited that I wouldn't known, wouldn't have known how much of it was unhealthy.

Katherine Suzette 39:52

Yeah I think that's why I'm so pro-con consent and discussion in the books which is why I like Ali Hazel Lit and the way that she brings things in I Mm-hmm. I've heard from some of my bookish friends who read something like Deep End who are also into

Zinzi Brookbree 40:07

I read that.

Katherine Suzette 40:08

kink either in their lives or in their media consumption And they said that oh no like that All the consent bits and all the talking and all of that just Took away from the story Like they weren't reading it for that They wanted the sex on the page stuff Opposite reaction and in my case. Yes I was like this does it for me My my brain is happy knowing that this is represented well on the page Just like you're happy that The UR and what's her name had and things or you know how I don't know like when they positively represent consent in books I think That's really important especially since younger readers are starting to read what least perhaps for us would've been considered a much more adult novel yeah. we would've otherwise had access to when we were the same age

Zinzi Brookbree 41:01

We need to wrap up. We didn't do the reader's chair or the writer's chair this time because we just decided to have a genuine discussion around this topic. Join our Fable Book Club, our current read is How to find a nameless Faye by AJ Lancaster. What happens when a firstborn Faye bargain goes wrong? We haven't done a cozy fantasy yet, and this one is Cozy Fantasy. Cozy romantasy. And our MMC is, 40 plus in her age being a spinster. Right. They deserve fairytale endings too.

Katherine Suzette 41:32

With the innuendo and literally

Zinzi Brookbree 41:36

oh, happy ending. to a happy ending

Katherine Suzette 41:38

Yeah Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 41:40

Don't we all deserve happy endings?

Katherine Suzette 41:43

But I will take my sex with a side of fantasy Thank you Wait no I dunno if I meant that the way it came out if you've enjoyed this, please give us a review. It helps us to get noticed on the internet, which is crowded with lots of other book podcasts you could be listening to. So we appreciate you choosing ours. Outside of this podcast, we have Book Dragon Inc. Retreats and right with me, Zinzi Bree that you can participate in. More information on that is in our show notes. you can find us on social media. Thank you so much for tuning in.

Zinzi Brookbree 42:14

stay tuned for our next, discussion episode, May the spice in your next read be just right