The Intersection of Fantasy, Romantasy, and Smut: When Magic Meets Desire - Part 2

We welcome you to Book Dragon Banter, where we (Sage, Katherine, and Zinzi Bree) talk fantasy and romantasy spice, from early reads like Mists of Avalon and Kushiel’s Dart to how modern romantasy has become more explicit on the page. We discuss when sex serves plot versus functioning like erotica, how unhealthy power dynamics, manipulation, and grooming can be portrayed (and sometimes left unaddressed), and why good sex doesn’t equal a healthy relationship. We also talk about foreplay-focused scene structure, common tropes like oral sex, language preferences and euphemisms (including a humorous run-through of terms from Naughty Words for Nice Writers), and the recurring age-gap fantasy problem. 

BDB Fable Fantasy Focused Book Club: https://fable.co/club/diverse-fantasy-with-zinzi-bree-271215645134?referralID=f9KdWh3wtd

Current Book: How to Find a Nameless Fae by A.J. Lancaster

Author Site: https://ajlancaster.com/books/other-projects/how-to-find-a-nameless-fae/

Podcast links:

Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/bookdragonbanter 

TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/

Other links:

Book Dragon Ink Retreats: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/ink-retreats

Write With Me, Zinzi Bree - Substack: https://writewithmezinzibree.substack.com/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Katherine: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/

Books Mentioned:

The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley

Kushiel’s Dart by Jacqueline Carey

The Carry On Series by Rainbow Rowell

ACOTAR by Sarah J Maas

The Summer Prince by Alaya Dawn Johnson

Naughty Words for Nice Writers: A Romance Novel Thesaurus by Cara Bristol

"I Give You My Body . . .": How I Write Sex Scenes by Diana Gabaldon

Bride by Ali Hazelwood

Elatsoe by Darcie Little Badger

Bridgerton Series by Julia Quinn

00:00 Uncensored Opener

00:21 Podcast Intro and Topic

00:47 First Fantasy Sex Reads

02:59 Romantasy Gets Explicit

04:17 Grooming and Power Dynamics

06:01 After the Happily Ever After

07:32 First Exposure Stories

09:09 Self Discovery and Communication

10:52 Mind Reading and Mental Load

13:15 Male Gaze vs Female Gaze

14:33 Writing Better Sex Scenes

16:14 Foreplay Tropes and Realism

19:12 Words and Euphemisms

20:55 Sexual Agency and Experience

23:05 Age Gaps and Immortal Lovers

25:53 Twilight Stalker Debate

27:30 Naming Body Parts

28:56 Euphemisms Versus Realism

29:51 Spice Goes Mainstream

30:24 Vagina Word List

32:48 Clit And Breasts Terms

34:31 Bridgerton Garden Metaphor

36:54 Wrap Up And Book Club

38:22 Unhinged Spice Recs

39:1

Transcript

Zinzi Brookbree 0:00

I'm internally laughing like at how much we are censoring ourselves and being like the pet Yeah penis dick. Like the, we can use those words. personally when I Yeah. Explicit podcast. Right. Welcome to book Dragon Banter, uh, podcast, where three aspiring authors talk all things books. We're fantasy focused, but we are not fantasy exclusive. Join Sage, Katherine, and me Zinzi Bree as we banter about all things bookish, We're so glad you're here. We are talking about smut, spice, whatever you wanna call it. In fantasy sometimes most often in romantasy as well. Yes, spoilers. Check the show notes.

Sage Moreaux 0:47

I think the first book that I read that I remember First Fantasy Book That actually had sex in I read myths of Avalon, and that is the story of King Arthur and, and his sister Morgana in that book. But, they, in the mythology of it. They have their half brother and sister, and they have sex and they end up, she ends

Zinzi Brookbree 1:10

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 1:10

And the story, it is through a old magic like druidic style rite, similar actually to ACOTAR with the spring rights where it's like a magic, like you have sex in order like generate magic in the land, right? And they don't know when they go into it, they're disguised. They don't know that they're, it's, they hadn't seen each other or they weren't raised together. None of that excuses yet. But like I probably was 12 when I read that. I don't think that it was terribly explicit, but it was definitely enough that you did know they certainly had sex.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:43

mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 1:44

but it's so different. I think the, explicit elements of romantasy are terribly different than it was back then. And then I, at the other one I remember, which I read in college, was, Kushiel's Dart Dart, which is where the main character read. like to me, that was the first actual romantasy that I ever read. And the main character is, like touched by the gods and loves like. Rough sex, basically. But she is very empowered throughout the course of the story, and she has a lot of agency over her own actions,

Zinzi Brookbree 2:18

Hmm

Sage Moreaux 2:19

the choice to have sex.

Zinzi Brookbree 2:20

mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 2:20

think there are scenes where they get captured and so she uses her sex of get ahead in the story and all of even though sex is like a huge part of the plot, it's not in detail. a little bit like referred to what's happening. There's some, there's a lot pain also, it's like the a pain kink. So it's definitely an s and m thing, but so like referred to and the aftermath is talked about a bit, but you're not getting incredibly detailed sex scenes. As opposed to a lot of the stuff these days that I've read romantasy genre where it's like extremely explicit on the page. I would even say I agree about Tamlin and Fayre and that not being a healthy relationship, I feel like in the first book they do have sex, but it's, I also don't think it's super explicit on the page.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:10

don't remember it being so

Sage Moreaux 3:11

I feel like the series gets more explicit as it goes on.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:15

Oh yeah, I'd agree with that.

Sage Moreaux 3:16

And I feel like they like, yes, he bites her and there's all he is super controlling and all, there's all this other stuff that that's awful. But their sex serves the plot also. Like know, and I think that's the difference to me is like when great um, I read those Alanna books or a couple of them, and it's great for the characters to have sex.'cause that's real, right? It's real for people to have sex in the world. There's so much violence and fantasy that, showing all this violence and not showing characters having sex is like unrealistic,

Zinzi Brookbree 3:51

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 3:52

unrealistic. But the explicit nature almost what I would consider erotica fit into a fantasy novel to be like a five level spice or whatever, that's very different than

Zinzi Brookbree 4:03

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 4:03

because it serves the plot and not necessarily like going in depth with how all of the details are working. So that, to me, those are like almost like totally different genres.

Katherine Suzette 4:12

Yeah I think that they are too because that's like different purpose of the book different end goal when it comes to Tamlin it does seem like the author Sarah J Mass used that pretty well to eventually describe an unhealthy power dynamic and unhealthy relationship But She is Leveraging like the human interest In some of that kink and for a lot of humans to be interested in Like some kind of power dynamic in the bedroom And it leads me to also think of how often in these books Manipulation and grooming is positively represented

Sage Moreaux 4:47

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette 4:49

I feel like at least in that one it eventually came out That was actually really unhealthy But often in romantasy I see grooming and manipulation into the bedroom and it's never resolved As a negative bad thing that the couple has to address or apologize for or understand for what it was I feel like that can be A turnoff for me With books when that kind of thing is not addressed even if those two characters are right for each other like they're There should be some addressing of some of those unhealthy dynamics especially since younger readers are reading it these days and they don't necessarily have trained discernment skills and critical thinking skills That older folks might have. So to put content in front of them where negative things are positively represented. I think does result in them being experienced by the reader as positive and therefore sought after later in real life And that can lead to some pretty dangerous situations like Lack of awareness around certain things And like what to watch out for in real life dynamics

Sage Moreaux 6:02

That's actually leads to one of the problems I have with the romance genre in general, which is that often like, it ends with the happily ever after or the happily for now, and doesn't lead like what the rest of the relationship is like. And just because you've worked it out to get to that point of committing to each other doesn't mean it's all smooth sailing. The Carryon series by Rainbow Rowell, she, I think does a really great job with that because in the fir and I love those books and in the first book, and those are like basically like a Harry Potter fiction variation. But, between Harry and Draco, except it's not, it's not them, that, that's kind of like the premise. so the characters get together at the end and then in the second book they have of hash through what it means to be. a relationship as two young men just out of, know, high school or whatever. And, dealing with the real world, dealing with their relationship, dealing with their own, trying to figure out where they are in life.

Zinzi Brookbree 6:58

Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 6:59

just'cause you find someone that you can have good sex with doesn't mean that then that's gonna,

Zinzi Brookbree 7:04

That doesn't equal a good relationship. Good sex does not equal a good relationship.

Sage Moreaux 7:08

exactly. Say that one more time.

Zinzi Brookbree 7:10

Good sex does not equal a good relationship, a healthy relationship.

Sage Moreaux 7:14

then I think in a lot of these like books where the sex is the main draw, some of it is exploring like what does unhealthy but sexually appealing sex. It's being able to safely explore that, right? kind of like how horror allows us to explore really terrible things from a position of safety.

Katherine Suzette 7:32

It's interesting how we all remember like our first books even if it's just like a very general impression of this first book where it introduces sexual relations to a degree and I think that it's like really important to Acknowledge that is Like an important thing that like the author's never going to know what this person's first exposure is but especially if we're writing a YA that has sex in it like we don't know when their first exposure is going to be was a fairytale retelling of Cinderella I read it aloud to my friends It was something that we did all the time They'd come and curl up on my bed And I would read aloud And this one we weren't expecting like that but I was on a call with one of those friends just last week and they referred back to it and they were like Remember how we used to curl up and Read smut And actually I never thought of that as smut because I would ex I would expect some kind of explicit content on the page as far as spice level is concerned That was probably like a level two maybe There was it was definitely like mostly off page but then again maybe I'm wrong but for us it was like a first introduction and exposure to that It was like The girls giggling behind their hands My gosh I must have been 14 15 So definitely like on the leader side as far as like books and consuming content about that Definitely not First sexual awakening or anything like that but when I first experienced that through the lens of somebody else on a page for sure mm-hmm. I remember a ya this one to me is memorable and an outlier because, or maybe dystopian, like if fantasy dystopian, like there were some things in it that were definitely technology futurism stuff.'cause there was a lot of body modification in this book. But it had, the lead character, and there is a scene in this book where she's out on, that's like a courtyard outside. But anyway, and she masturbates in the sunshine, like explicitly explains like this feeling the sunshine in down on her parts and the air exposure and things like that. And this one I don't know, outside of that and maybe some historical fiction, right, where the woman is told, oh, you should explore yourself and explore your own body so you know what pleasure, what is pleasurable to you. I kind of wish we saw some more of that in fantasy where it wasn't always reliant on whatever romantasy pairing other person, but had more discovery of self first because I don't know how otherwise that you go into those interactions with a partner and are able to communicate, okay, this is what I do like, and this is what I don't like. going back to some of these power dynamics, right? You've got an ancient elf who's clearly been, had slept around or whatever and just knows what to do, right? Every woman is different. There is no, like, this button works for all of us. Some of us it's, the clit does it for some, it's the boobs does it, and they want lots of play there. Like it's gonna be different for different women. And you can't just take, oh, I'm experienced with lots of women and use that to just find, without it being a, maybe Xaden gets a pass, right? Because he can mind read intentions. So like, maybe that's the, oh, I know what's pleasurable when there's mind reading involved Rhysand too, right? Like there's that fantasy of the man can read your mind and then therefore would be able to tell what is the most sexually pleasurable for you.

Sage Moreaux 11:19

I think that though, like isn't it true that in a lot of women have this feeling like, or people probably in general, but from talking to my girlfriends and stuff, like if only he knew what I was thinking and it, because that would reduce the mental load. I don't, I, I've never had a conversation where we said if only my partner knew what I was thinking, so that they were really good at pleasuring me. It's like, so that they would just go pick up the groceries

Zinzi Brookbree 11:45

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 11:46

that they would know that I have all these things going on and like where to help without me asking. So hopefully in that situation they've already helped reduce your mental load

Zinzi Brookbree 11:57

Yeah. Me as a writer, I would be more likely to write a cozy fantasy scenario where if there is mind reading powers, he's going, oh man, she wants the dishes done. I'm gonna go take care of that before I even try to like, take us to the bedroom because I picked up that was on her list. That's, and that's framed in the, because it's her responsibility that would be in cozy fantasy, her responsibility to do the dishes when you're in high fantasy, the main character generally isn't responsible for doing the dishes. The main character is responsible for training her magic or for learning assassination skills. Right. Or learning how to fly with the dragon. Like what you're. What the mental load in those are often are just physical tasks that you have to do or can't do. It's not the same kind of anxiety inducing or mental list that we as modern women with, real lives have and experience. And that's part of why we seek out fantasy right, is to be able to enjoy being in the perspective of a character who does not have that mental load, who gets to just

Sage Moreaux 13:01

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 13:01

in the moment, have their training, and not have that extra stuff going on in the back of the brain. We'll have extra things going on in the back of the brain that are plot relevant, but not necessarily things they have any control over or guilt around.

Katherine Suzette 13:15

This makes me think about like the and again I don't wanna over gendery everything but like the male gaze versus the female gaze the ways that these are written The male gaze version of erotic on a page It's usually like very visual It's more Art and or it's like actual porn and things like that It's very visual and It's very just like gratification oriented Whereas The female gaze we're like oh There's preparation there's cleanup There's thoughtfulness There's him wanting to pleasure me him thinking about me or the partner thinking about the partner's pleasure and things like that there's genuine concern over these things And I do not wanna say that like men don't want that as well which is where I think the gender genderizing of these gazes and things can be the male gaze is definitely in literature is definitely not oriented towards much other than the gratification the satisfaction The climactic moment Mm-hmm. things like that Whereas the women like the climax takes back seat to the rest of the scenes or to the experience a lot of the time Yeah it's relevant but it's not the end all be all of the scene I'm not gonna reread a sex scene just for the fact like that climax Mm-hmm. be like there for the pleasure of the surrounding moments I was reading, a book that is about, here's good words for, writing sex scenes and like different euphemisms you can use different, things like that. And also, while I was looking that up, I learned that the writer of Outlander has a book that she wrote about how she writes her sex scenes, which is probably the next one that I'm gonna go read off of this. But anyway, the, naughty words for good writers that I did read, that one talks about how when you're writing a sex scene, the, you want the majority of it to be foreplay. Then there's a smaller portion that is the climax. Like that's actually might be the smallest amount of it. Naughty words for nice writers, the thos. Yes, that one. And then there is the, post codal, right? Like those, you want all three of those, in your scene. And then she was like, it even mimics story structure, of having, you've got mm-hmm buildup, your climax, your deis. Yeah. But anyway, the she comments you're spending most of your page time on the foreplay, on the buildup. the actual climactic moment is very. Small compared to like the rest of it. And I, relate that back to liking a slow burn romance and the pacing that you have to have for those books, right? It's, basically almost all of their relationship is foreplay. And then when you're getting close to the very end of the series is when you give the, okay, they've met and they're now, it's not slow burn, it's they've ignited. For women, statistically more of us foreplay is the thing there.

Sage Moreaux 16:14

makes me think of what you were saying about masturbation, because I think that a lot of books, written for women with sex in them have, regardless of it's fantasy or not, they have the men giving oral sex right before.

Zinzi Brookbree 16:29

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 16:30

before the man

Zinzi Brookbree 16:31

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 16:31

lovely and a very, I think, I don't know what, I don't know what kind of books men are reading or if it's we're talking about just visual pornography or how likely that is, what's being shown in books, at men in sex scenes aimed at men. But that's definitely what women want, we can tell just based off of how common it is that, and that counts, I think as foreplay. It's like you're saying it, it's, what, and once it reaches climax, then it no longer is, but it is so common at this point. It's almost like stands out to me if the characters have sex without oral sex happening first A lot of foreplay of some other kind happening first. It like is almost shocking like, wow, what? Why did the author choose this? Because that's such a standard trope at this point.

Zinzi Brookbree 17:26

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 17:26

right word, but uh, but I would love to see the masturbation piece play in more. I think that would be fantastic.

Katherine Suzette 17:32

a feeling that the first book I read that had more like Genuine Sex on the Page was a book in which masturbation was on the page And then I oh see positive representation of discovering and knowing yourself That sounds reasonable to me But also comment on like how often yes there there may be oral play or even climax from oral sex before penetration But in current books more often we see when there is penetration a woman then the woman The person giving penetration also gives stimulation to whatever aous zone is relevant for the woman on the receiving end Like just clitoris like Zinzi said sometimes it's breast sometimes it's like nipple play Sometimes it's something else like I appreciate it When the author doesn't represent just penetration as being the that brings the woman to climax Mm-hmm. always the case obviously it can be but There are a lot of women who don't experience it that way I

Zinzi Brookbree 18:38

also appreciate the stories where, a lot of the fantasy books, right? Like they're climaxing together. That kind of seems to be the norm. So I appreciate the stories where that is not the case. And you are seeing on page the partner that did climax still working to bring pleasure and climax to the other partner. I appreciate those stories because I also find that to be far more realistic than the, oh, there's always the hitting the, to use Bridger Chin right now, right there. They've got the scenes where it's hitting the pinnacle together at the same time.

Katherine Suzette 19:12

But like, I appreciate when I am, when I am reading my personal preferences do not, like, I don't wanna read or hear. He was pounding his dick into me. Like that's, that is not an appealing, I do like the use euphemisms, right? I do like the other words being used. And also feel like as a writer or even as a reader, like those words that are chosen have, extra power to heighten the emotion. Because like, if, if this is a character and you're building. The heat in the scene. And so all of the euphemisms you are are using are, your core is heating up and, you're using all stuff that like, makes you feel inflamed. That to me heightens the emotion of the scene and heightens how that scene plays out versus if it was all this other stuff themed in the book is around fire, but here this sex scene is using the actual words of, dick and vagina. And I would just be like, is this still fantasy? What did you just check the fantasy and insert your contemporary romance into, that's what my brain would do on those ones you would lose me.

Sage Moreaux 20:23

I find that cock is used a lot.

Zinzi Brookbree 20:25

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 20:26

seem to see the most in terms a word for penis.

Zinzi Brookbree 20:30

I can't help but think about chickens if that's used, but I do understand using it. I think a chicken or at least at

Sage Moreaux 20:37

right.

Zinzi Brookbree 20:38

I'm like Yep.

Sage Moreaux 20:39

It doesn't that if that one doesn't really bother me, but when they talk about, like rod and shaft, those, I can't

Zinzi Brookbree 20:46

yeah,

Sage Moreaux 20:46

it is. Is it like old school that's very eighties or something like that? I just don't, or seventies, like bodice stripper style, know, has novels.

Zinzi Brookbree 20:55

Go ahead.

Sage Moreaux 20:55

earlier with the thing of the like 500 year old Fae or a thousand year old Fae and all of his experience and I really like it when we have books'cause I have noticed that a lot of the like romantasy written for adults and even an ACOTAR, which you like you said, was originally, I don't know if it's still classified as ya, but,

Zinzi Brookbree 21:13

I don't think it is anymore.

Sage Moreaux 21:15

characters are not virgins. So that's one. So they have at least

Zinzi Brookbree 21:18

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 21:19

going into the situation. But I really like it when the female character is also represented as sexually active and sexually like aware and in control of her own sexual life before she meets

Zinzi Brookbree 21:33

mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 21:34

Right. The romance, the other lead romance character. And I think there's still often a power dynamic difference between the man having, being like the rake and having all of this past experience, sexual experience, and the woman maybe not being a virgin, but not having had too many lovers. And that puts this

Zinzi Brookbree 21:51

Or not ones that are

Sage Moreaux 21:52

play. Yeah, they were, yeah. Or treated them well or whatever, but I really do like it. And, Sarah J Maas newer series, the Crescent City series, the main character she sleeps around and she has one night stands and she is not, uh, and I appreciated that about it. Like she is not just like this girl who maybe had one longtime boyfriend before they broke up. She was like, had sexual agency of her own. I see that sometimes, but I feel like that doesn't happen nearly enough. And for it to be treated in a way that it represents a healthy choice for your sexuality versus oh, you're slutty, right? Because I Don't want that kind of negative connotation placed on it. And I would like to see more of that in terms of the, the sex dynamics, power dynamics.

Katherine Suzette 22:41

yeah So I'm hearing a lot of we're looking for diverse representation of different experiences and different ages and How the characters get off and what they enjoy in their experience but Positive rep like some element of realistic representation even though these are often through the fantasy lens And that is generally why people come to the smut in fantasy books I'll say drawing back to the power dynamics and who's older and things like that I think that another thing that I would love to see more often it's not an in particular interest of a lot of women to date younger It feels just weird and maybe that's a societal thing Maybe that's a individual thing I don't know But I do think it's really strange to have 500 year old male vampires and like the Blushing Virgin Bride a situation where we're not also representing like the 500 year old vampire woman who has had plenty of experience who is falling in love with a younger man maybe he's mid twenties or thirties I don't know But It would be has he even then I find myself saying mid twenties thirties to be like

Zinzi Brookbree 23:49

You still have to, yeah. Do you know what, it's Katherine? It's, we have this, the mental standard of a, the guys have to be older because that's the only way the maturity level has our, has gotten up there to wherever, where our standard is as a grown woman.

Katherine Suzette 24:05

Are the 500 year old vampires falling in love with a 19-year-old woman and making her a vampire at 19 kind of thing that doesn't feel mature enough Not that I'm not gonna enjoy the book just it feels As a naive idiot at 19, like that would be awful.

Sage Moreaux 24:19

Right. like if you're a 500 year old vampire and you're, is your maturity level really, like they thirties or younger? You don't see the 500 year old vampire or orfe romantasy interest. Who comes off as being 50? They are 500 and they come off as being mid twenties or maybe 30. I think like all of that stuff leans into our classic societal thing of like young and beautiful and fertile And right. You, there's men that are 90 and still impregnating women, but they're not

Katherine Suzette 24:51

It's still capable.

Sage Moreaux 24:52

incapable of procreating. Whereas at a certain point, women can no longer have babies. that, that's like a little bit of the, like long-term genderizing around the age difference, is that the younger the woman is, the more likely she is to be able to have a bunch of babies. Now if you turn them into a vampire, they don't have children any like, there's no ability to any longer. know,

Zinzi Brookbree 25:12

now that you've said that if turning into a vampire takes away the, the monthly cycle like that is now much more appealing.

Katherine Suzette 25:20

it If I had to choose being a werewolf and being a vampire I'd be a vampire like the trope attractiveness I like the werewolf Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 25:30

So you just

Katherine Suzette 25:30

wanna be the vampire who falls in love with the werewolf. Yes I'm okay with that

Zinzi Brookbree 25:35

There it is Brad There you go.

Sage Moreaux 25:37

well that reminds me of a, we just read where the, there was the side character, I forget his name. He was the boyfriend who was a vampire and there was a cure available Was a cure available.

Zinzi Brookbree 25:48

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 25:48

because of like health benefits

Zinzi Brookbree 25:51

And his girlfriend, Ronnie, didn't mind it,

Sage Moreaux 25:53

yeah. And know, and I always like, I remember the creepiness of Edward watching Bella sleep from Twilight, but I was like, oh, he doesn't have to sleep. Imagine how much I could do with all of those extra hours. Like, He's there playing the

Zinzi Brookbree 26:06

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 26:06

like, I'd be so good at piano if I didn't have to sleep.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:09

Is that like the start for the generation of us that grew up? And for those women who are into the stalker romance, right? Is that, did they go from Edward staring at Bella?

Sage Moreaux 26:20

My daughter

Zinzi Brookbree 26:21

Sorry.

Sage Moreaux 26:21

and she was definitely like, that is so creepy. So that makes me feel a lot better actually.

Katherine Suzette 26:26

Oh good

Sage Moreaux 26:28

She was like, no, thank you.

Katherine Suzette 26:30

The stalker stuff That Doesn't do it for me But also thinking about what you said sage or actually you both talked about like the words Different acts in different body parts there's something to be said for like the societal IG reaction to saying penis and vagina or how often we get vagina confused with vulva and like how men and Women too don't know where the clitoris is or For different individuals different kind of stimulus all that kind of thing It's just not really talked about If there are more erogenous zones than just like the private parts, there are other spots on the body Are pleasure triggers, yep and I Think some Romances some of The L-G-B-T-Q general romances tend to present that better than a lot of the Cishet Romances Yeah Heteronormative Yes That's what I mean but pussy that is an ick for me Ah, me too

Sage Moreaux 27:29

Agree.

Katherine Suzette 27:30

when it comes on and the guy's trying to be all sexy but he's oh yeah you're pussy you're that and I'm like who

Sage Moreaux 27:36

have to say I prefer less of the body parts being named and more like it's, she's, it's not fantasy, but, what's her face? I can't remember her name off the top of my head right now.

Zinzi Brookbree 27:50

Are you looking at your bookshelf to see, is she over there?

Sage Moreaux 27:53

I really like it when the sex scenes are more described like an emotional perspective. Maybe some body parts are named in the sense like to know, understand, like where you're at in the process. But it's a lot more internal and emotional connection now that leads to the sex needing to be a buildup of a relationship versus just like sex for fun. And I've definitely read, romance novels where it's like the sex comes first and the relationship comes later.

Zinzi Brookbree 28:23

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 28:24

usually names, know, Cox or I can't think of another word that is used other than pussy or vagina.

Zinzi Brookbree 28:32

Core. Core.

Sage Moreaux 28:34

used nicely core, yeah. Lot more words for a dick than there are for a vagina. just going say which is not a surprise, it is something interesting to point out. Maybe in the book that you have zzi with the nice words,

Zinzi Brookbree 28:49

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 28:49

nice writers might

Zinzi Brookbree 28:50

List You want me? I can pull it up on my Kindle and we can go through some of these

Sage Moreaux 28:55

Yeah, let's go through it

Zinzi Brookbree 28:56

What about like the woman's garden Like I've heard things like that and then I'm like okay we've gotten like too far Maybe we are past like back in the eighties or pre eighties even descriptions of private zones But things like that will take me out of the moment too I'm like it's a little too inde descriptive I would rather her just say My nether region or my lady bits which does the same like avoiding saying the words I feel like that works if the character has already established like they are uncomfortable with their own body, that works better if it's part of the character, right? Versus if you have a character who's I'm badass. I can, stick my knife in a person's stomach, rip it open and see all the guts come out and describe that. Then they should be able to say the harder words version of their own body parts. So like could be a contrast like a contrasting personality thing

Sage Moreaux 29:51

spice has gotten more like acceptable, Romance novels are huge. And it used to be like something that people kept secret that they read, or it was like a little more of

Zinzi Brookbree 30:02

Harlow

Sage Moreaux 30:02

talked about. And now it's very like almost like a badge of pride, which is

Zinzi Brookbree 30:08

All right. reader T-shirts and things

Sage Moreaux 30:11

yeah, exactly.

Zinzi Brookbree 30:12

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 30:13

so, using more concrete terminology is a little more accepted now than it was where you maybe had to do more euphemisms to not be branded as like smut back in the day.

Zinzi Brookbree 30:23

All right. We were specifically saying words for vagina, right?

Sage Moreaux 30:27

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 30:28

vulva thighs area between her thighs, canal center channel, cleft, core crease, crotch. C word that I don't say Cuny. C-U-N-N-Y-I have never, no.

Sage Moreaux 30:44

like that one either. No, thank you.

Zinzi Brookbree 30:46

I am not a fan of the cu N versions either pussy N words not it for me Nope, Nope. Delta of Venus where someone is saying it as that, I don't know. Down south, I would say down south. That one makes sense to me. The Duchess, I was like, is that his, the historical romance, right? Entrance. I could see entrance. That makes sense. Folds. Flesh, furrow. Gash. Genitalia. Genitals. Oh, here's girl parts. Gpo. Heat. Her whole Honey. Honey pot hoo-ha. Inside labia lady. Bits Lady. Business Lady Jane, lady. Parts mark. Miss PRIs what? jinx Pedals portal. Pdu Dunum P Addendum. I don't know if I'm saying that right. Quim would you I what? Quim

Sage Moreaux 31:46

Yeah, I've heard that one. Quim.

Zinzi Brookbree 31:49

I

Sage Moreaux 31:49

I'm gonna say this is giving a whole new, description portal fantasy.

Zinzi Brookbree 31:55

And we enter the golden

Sage Moreaux 31:56

I just thought it meant you entered another world. Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:00

your dungeon fight is like through the monthly cycle of a woman is just like you're in a chamber and it just fills with blood.

Sage Moreaux 32:09

Wow

Zinzi Brookbree 32:14

Velvet Curtain. your face in the corner I can't see your face Warmth, wet heat, wetness, womanhood. I skipped a bunch.'cause like I can't just read everything, you know, go by the book. But others, even a section on here that's like the P word versus the C word, pussy or word. I don't say which is better, which is acceptable. The answer, it's totally up to like, there is a little section on that and there's also, there's descriptions for arousal. Thank you. Not this Catherine, but other Catherine for introducing this book to me. She listens to this podcast. There, there's a whole different list for, the clitoris, like bud and button and center core gem hood, jewel love button. What? love button

Sage Moreaux 33:02

I am just imagining trying to write a sex scene using some of these really odd choices and like how hard it would be to get through without just cracking yourself up the whole time and feeling so cringe.

Zinzi Brookbree 33:12

I wanna do it

Sage Moreaux 33:14

mean, Maybe, yeah. I'm not gonna say we should challenge each other to do it and then read it on the podcast, but that could be like

Zinzi Brookbree 33:21

That would be hilarious. Yep. Here's breasts and the first one on breasts that I was like who would, why balloons.

Sage Moreaux 33:37

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 33:38

for itself in this moment I Mm-hmm. Nope. It's like balloons, bee stings, boobies. Now to be fair, like I am purposely reading the ones that are funnier out of this book. There are useful terms in here, right? Like, I'm not, I'm not trying to make it sound like this person collected a bunch of words that are just not appropriate. Absolutely. There are good words in here. Just for humor purposes, I am choosing the ones that are more outlandish because it's a podcast. wait, does that, so torpedoes for breasts?

Sage Moreaux 34:09

yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 34:10

maybe the torpedoes.

Sage Moreaux 34:13

Torpedo.

Zinzi Brookbree 34:13

Tatas

Sage Moreaux 34:14

do you like bras

Zinzi Brookbree 34:18

bra.

Sage Moreaux 34:18

big? bra. That's like a torp. Yeah, torpedo.

Zinzi Brookbree 34:21

Oh my gosh.

Sage Moreaux 34:24

So is the list for the male genitalia longer than for the female

Zinzi Brookbree 34:29

Yes, I believe so. But while we're here I guess I I had another thought about I mentioned the garden and I think that maybe there are relevant instances for a description like that And I'm thinking also like drawing it back to Bridger tin and If the mother were to describe more of the sexual acts before they are required in the relationship like she'd be like take care of your garden and this is about your garden Mm-hmm. that kind of word play being really relevant in an instance like that Yes.

Sage Moreaux 34:58

I think she does actually in the first

Zinzi Brookbree 35:00

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 35:01

I think the mom,

Zinzi Brookbree 35:02

Oh

Sage Moreaux 35:03

like gives a very unhelpful, very vague description

Zinzi Brookbree 35:07

For plot reasons, it's unhelpful, right?

Sage Moreaux 35:10

yes. It's definitely for plot reasons, but also historically probably fairly accurate, where that wasn't something that was talked about. Young women went into marriage knowing nothing and it was very uncomfortable for the mother even having had a healthy sex life of her own with so many children to talk about it.'cause it wasn't societally accepted. It seems like some moms maybe talked about it more than others, but like definitely you wouldn't ever refer to a part explicitly if you were like a proper lady. Yeah, she does. She talks about how a woman's body is like a garden that you need to tend doesn't give you much to go on, but is a, it's a, it's like a very lovely sentiment, caring.

Zinzi Brookbree 35:55

these different words to be relevant

Sage Moreaux 35:57

Mm-hmm

Zinzi Brookbree 35:58

and even those bad yeah. that we would not prefer to read in a positive representation scene like they can be relevant if circumstances are being represented on a page like an abusive character kind of thing Whether it's verbal or otherwise if they use words like this that could be a signal to the reader that this is a very unhealthy version of things

Sage Moreaux 36:19

So if I ever heard anybody,

Zinzi Brookbree 36:22

I was a penis described as a tally wacker.

Sage Moreaux 36:28

I've never heard that

Zinzi Brookbree 36:30

I was like, but the that sounds very British Like I joystick. I can totally see people being like, they're, the gear shift.

Sage Moreaux 36:39

Snake

Zinzi Brookbree 36:41

yep. spitting lizard. That was the one that I was laughing at really hard. Mostly'cause it grosses me out or what I like one eye snake is one that's, just to make people uncomfortable.

Sage Moreaux 36:54

Nice.

Zinzi Brookbree 36:54

We're almost at two hours here, I think we need to wrap up. Yeah. Join our Fable Book Club, our current read is How to find a nameless Fae by AJ Lancaster. What happens when a firstborn Fae bargain goes wrong? Princess Giselle has spent her life preparing for an evil Fae sorcerer to claim her. That was the bargain. Her mother, was tricked into one royal firstborn in exchange for spinning straw into gold. But it's been decades and he still hasn't shown up. She'll hunt him down and force him to stop ruining her life. But instead of an evil mastermind, she finds these scholarly nameless lord of a magical house. He wants nothing to do with the angry knife wielding spinster on his doorstep. Unfortunately, the fairytale debt has other ideas, now magically bound to her lifelong nemesis. The only way to break the magic between them is to work together to find the nameless phase lost name, assuming they don't strangle each other first. There is spice in it. Did pick it because, we haven't done a cozy fantasy yet, and this one is Cozy Fantasy. Cozy romantasy.

Sage Moreaux 37:58

if you enjoyed this episode and you wanna hear more from us please give us a five star review down below It means so much to new and developing podcasts to be discoverable really helps

Zinzi Brookbree 38:11

outside of this podcast, we have Book Dragon Inc. Retreats and right with me, ZZI Bri, that you can participate in. More information on that is in our show notes. you can find us on social media. Comment with your most unhinged Spice Re Mine is Morning Gloria Milking Farm so far, but I am not opposed to reading. There was a book that I've heard of where it's getting pounded by your vegetables. There was another one that's a sex book that's like, it's a door, right? Like, I have no issue reading these for entertainment. They're not anything that I'm gonna take seriously. And like the writer who is writing it knows that it's ridiculous, right? Versus other stories that are meant to be more serious in tone and taken that way. And to be more there's, you're tickling the funny bone, or you're trying to tickle other bones. And I prefer the tickle the funny bone in, in my spice reading. I feel like we need to have like a signature happy reading. go live your fantasy, blah, blah, blah. At some point we should get a I sign off please are. with may Inspiration Always find you and motivation be ever in your corner That's how I sign off on my emails I'm pretty sure Which makes sense for as a editorial, writer, stuff. Let's find one though

Sage Moreaux 39:33

I feel like we came up with some when we were looking at t-shirts, but I don't remember if any of them I feel like

Zinzi Brookbree 39:39

Read more, care more, feel more something. Something along those lines.

Katherine Suzette 39:45

may your next book haunt you in the best way possible If we were readers maybe but If we liked the spooky

Zinzi Brookbree 39:52

May your next book be Magic. Or this one could be, may the spice in your next read be just right'cause there's gonna be those readers. I don't want spice, no spice for me. No thank you. Then no spice for them. But if there's someone who's just they want all the chili peppers, I hope that book finds them. Maybe it's feathers so vicious or whatever it is where the girl gets ripped in half during the sex scene. Right. Like, if that's appealing to you or there's, there's reverse harem books that have, why choose there's, why Choose Fantasy? I haven't read any of those yet. I'm willing to give them a shot. Stay tuned for our next, discussion episode

Sage Moreaux 40:27

Thanks for joining us. Bye. Episode

Zinzi Brookbree 40:37

there's that. Fair enough We tried. Yeah Draw the curtain It was just Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 40:46

Door.

Zinzi Brookbree 40:47

Mm-hmm.