A Story Within a Story: The Layers of 'The Spear Cuts Through Water'

The Spear Cuts Through Water by Simon Jimenez — Experimental Fantasy, POV Shifts & Love Stories | Book Dragon Banter

In this episode of Book Dragon Banter, Zinzi Bree, Sage, and Katherine discuss Simon Jimenez’s The Spear Cuts Through Water, our Fable book club pick, sharing spoiler-free reactions and then diving into spoilers. We unpack the book’s experimental structure—second-person “you,” shifting POVs, Greek-chorus interludes, and creative typography—plus how format and audiobook versus text affect readability and immersion, especially through the inverted-theater framing. We debate what works and what doesn’t, highlighting the prose, layered love stories, and themes of storytelling, heritage, and power, while also reacting to disturbing elements like cannibalism and cruelty. We discuss standout characters (Keema and Jun), the Three Terrors, the moon goddess myth, tortoise “telephone” magic, and favorite lines, and announce a summer format shift to a read-along of This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Ilona Andrews alongside writing retreats and Zoom write-ins.

Podcast links:

Book Dragon Banter Substack - https://bookdragonbanter.substack.com/

Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/bookdragonbanter 

TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod

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BDB Fable Fantasy Focused Book Club: https://fable.co/club/diverse-fantasy-with-zinzi-bree-271215645134?referralID=f9KdWh3wtd

Other links:

Book Dragon Ink Online Writing Retreats: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/ink-retreats

Write With Me, Zinzi Bree - Substack: https://writewithmezinzibree.substack.com/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Book Dragon Ink: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/

The Spear Cuts Through Water by Simon Jimenez: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/647357/the-spear-cuts-through-water-by-simon-jimenez/

Our Summer Read-Along: This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me: 

https://ilona-andrews.com/maggie-the-undying-2/

00:00 Cannibalism Cold Open

00:16 Podcast Intro

00:42 Book Pick And Premise

02:00 Spoiler Free Reactions

04:21 Experimental Fantasy Pitch

05:09 Spoilers Begin

05:14 Reading Formats Audio Vs Text

07:03 Structure Inverted Theater

09:45 Second Person Perspective Hurdle

11:41 Narration And Cast Debate

13:52 Stage Imagery And Prose

17:56 Character Standouts Keema

19:35 Missing Arm Critique

21:55 Jun Backstory And Comparisons

24:06 Is It A Love Story

26:40 Fathers Leave Quote

27:33 Motherhood And Terror Bonds

29:38 Minotaur and Love

30:07 Sex Without Shame

32:22 Ranking the Terrors

34:03 Mind Control Horror

35:19 Moon Goddess Origins

38:40 Dance as Magic

39:54 Animal Symbols and Tortoises

41:41 Grief and Cannibalism

44:49 Writers Desk Insights

49:48 Point of View Choices

54:12 Favorite Quotes

58:30 Wrap Up and Next Reads

Transcript

Zinzi Brookbree 0:00

I don't know how we picked a book with cannibalism. That just, it did not on my radar go, "This is gonna be a thing! Not for me, can't get past it. Nope. do not pass go. Welcome to Book Dragon Banter, a podcast where three aspiring authors talk all things books. We're fantasy-focused, but not exclusive. Join Sage, Katherine, and me, I'm Zinzi Bree, as we share our perspectives from the reader's chair and get analytical from the writer's desk, all for the love of story. We're so glad you're here. now's a great time to hit that subscribe button so you don't miss out.

Sage Moreaux 0:36

This is an explicit podcast so that we can share our honest and unfiltered opinions.

Zinzi Brookbree 0:42

this episode we are covering The Spear Cuts Through Water by Simon Jimenez. this was our featured book for our book club this month that we run through Fable. Although, to be honest, we were on this book for a really long time in Fable, 'cause our schedules got crazy, and this was a long read. It was, it was slow going, and I... Yeah, it was slow going. The Spear Cuts Through Water is a rather unique fantasy. The description of the plot,

Katherine Suzette 1:09

two warriors shepherd an ancient god across a broken land to end the tyrannical reign of a royal family in this new epic fantasy from the author of The Vanished Birds.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:18

So far I have had the delight of I get to pick the books for our book club, and, Sage and Katherine just get to suffer through whatever I choose. Usually, I feel like I've done a really good job of picking books that have been, fun or enjoyable or eca- epic. I, I do try and tailor a bit to their tastes. one I recognize as an outlier, and so I'm really interested to see what all of our opinions of, of, of it are, because I don't... Most of our, most of our book club episodes have been, "We really love this book." I don't. I don't love this book. and I really wanna know what your guys' feelings are about it as well. So let's go ahead and do our spoiler-free initial thoughts about this. How was your reading experience?

Sage Moreaux 2:07

So I actually really do love this book, but it took me a long time to get there. I started reading it and it was slow-going, And then, but by the time I was maybe a quarter of the way through, it kinda got me, and I think most of it has to do with the beauty of the language. Like, I really enjoyed the writing in a lot of the elements So that's very different from, like, a plot love, like love of character, love of plot. For me, this one was like I really loved some of the, like, feeling I got from the language that the author used.

Katherine Suzette 2:44

Hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 2:44

you, Katherine?

Katherine Suzette 2:45

I still am of two minds. I think that there are some aspects of this creative venture that are genius. They're brilliant. They're beautiful. then there's a lot of it where I'm like, it would have pleased readers so much quicker more thoroughly, been more satisfying had the author chosen a different path. So for me, I think the pleasure comes from the literary breaking of boundaries. the reader part of me, though, I'm not sure I ever really fell in love with it, honestly, until the last quarter. And just because I loved the last quarter does not mean that I fell in love with the other three quarters. I simply struggled to follow. That said, though, like, for anybody who wants... Like, I already in my head, I've picked out clients where I'm gonna send them an email and be like, "We have considered some, some aspects of this formatting that, in, in our discussions, that I think this would be a really relevant book for you to go and read and see how this author chose to go about it," because I do think a lot of it is genius. think there are some things that I would personally urge writers to do differently. So genius, beautiful, brilliant, and not gonna be my favorite book to read for pleasure or satisfaction of the, the literary brain, the reader's brain.

Zinzi Brookbree 4:10

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 4:11

don't think I will reread it. Like it, it didn't hit the point where I would... I mean, a lot of books I won't reread even if I enjoyed them, but this would be on that category.

Zinzi Brookbree 4:21

I do think it, Katherine brought up, that there are parts of it that are good reference, to inspire other things, right? Like, there's something-- One of the major things that it has going for it, and I would say this if, for those who are considering, like, do you wanna read this book? Do you wanna check this out? And I would say yes, if you are looking for something experimental, if you are looking for something that is very different than what you usually find in the fantasy space. A lot of coming out in fantasy, particularly romantasy, it feels like they are, copycat, cookie-cutter, trope-filled, right? And, like, this does not have that stuff. So if you're really looking for a fresh read, this might be for you.

Sage Moreaux 5:09

We get into spoilers?

Zinzi Brookbree 5:10

Spoilers from here on out.

Katherine Suzette 5:12

Let's get comfortable from the reader's chair I, purchased the e-book and the audiobook, and the audiobook was really to follow in the first half, until I, like, really understood what was going on with the book. I needed somebody to explain what to expect before I read it, so that I would be prepared to follow along. but I do want to go back and read it fr- that part of me that is kind of obsessed with new ways of doing things and being able to read fresh perspectives and all of that in this world, where there are a lot of cookie-cutter books, and people know exactly what to expect from them, and they're immediately, satisfied 'cause that's exactly what they get.

Sage Moreaux 5:50

I was thinking about you, Katherine, because I know you usually do audiobooks, and as I was reading the book, I was like, "This-- I wonder how the audiobook does it." And then I got the audiobook and listened for a little while, and I was like, "Wow, it's a totally different experience." So

Katherine Suzette 6:06

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 6:07

I just was thinking, like, this book, I believe, is meant to be read Probably on paper, honestly, but I read the e-book version. yeah, I feel like because of the way the text is used and stuff, I feel like you're gonna miss out, even though it sounded like the narrator did a fine job of it for the bit that I listened to.

Katherine Suzette 6:26

where a dramatized

Zinzi Brookbree 6:28

different opinion from you guys on that one.

Katherine Suzette 6:31

Oh, okay.

Zinzi Brookbree 6:32

And I-- Hold

Katherine Suzette 6:33

it

Zinzi Brookbree 6:33

on.

Katherine Suzette 6:34

been great to have a cast on.

Zinzi Brookbree 6:35

Readability, right? So, Katherine, Sage, and I all listen or read different ways. I do an immersion re- read, so immersive read, where I am listening to the audiobook and also looking at the text as much as I can throughout the book. for you're usually doing a physical or e-book copy, but not the audio. And then Katherine is usually only audio. something that is really part of the experimental structure of The Spear That- The Spear Cuts Through Water that, the size of texts are being played with. There are thoughts, that are being italicized so that we know that they're thoughts, and they're being inlaid into what's happening in the story from characters that are not the perspective that is currently being shared. There's a lot of layering that is going on. for me, it's gonna lead into another point that I wanna talk about, which is the inverted theater, right? A big part of this story is that, is being told first by a second-person point of view. You have your character, who is you. There's s- like, the book starts out with that, and his, that character's lola is telling the story and shares a story about an inverted theater, you kind of go to in a dream sequence. And then this story is being told that theater stage. There is a performance that is happening. And so some of these lines that are being given in the audiobook, it's clear it's be- it's this, like, a Greek chorus voice. There is a performance element that is happening that is matching the inverted theater aspect of the book that I don't think you get if you are just reading the text as is. But the text does a good job of having that different formatting so you know when thoughts are separate. But also it can be confusing without, like, some extra context. It takes a while to. like, figure that out. It's not immediately an easy r- Like, I read the first sentence even a couple of times because it's, the beginning of it is this little tiny format and then rolls into the rest of what's being said in second perspective, it's hard. It feels... it's being talked about as if you are the person who is there. It is your story. But at the same time, at least for me, my brain was going, but I'm not you, and this is not my experience, and I would react in completely different ways what's happening." so whether you like or don't like second perspective is probably gonna have a big effect on how much you do or don't like the whole book.

Sage Moreaux 9:45

So I started the book. Oh, and it was you-- It's the second perspective, and I've read books like that before, and I've had different experience with different books, but generally it's not my favorite. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, okay. Like, settle into this." And then I was like, "I'm just gonna flip ahead." Like, so I'm on the e-book, so I just, like, jumped to a random page halfway through, and it was still you perspective. And I was like, "Okay, I gotta, like, it's a long book. I gotta prepare myself to be in you perspective the whole time," which isn't the case. But, it definitely, I think that's one of the reasons it took me so long to get into it is because that perspective is a challenge, and it takes a while before you're in the, like, third person through another character's perspective.

Katherine Suzette 10:30

I, while you guys were talking, I went and I pulled up the e-book read the first page. And just with the knowledge and experience I have from the audiobook and having gone all the way through it, and then listening to you, Zinzi, presenting how it reads or, or the, the structure of it, my experience of just that first page was entirely different. now said, I do love a good, like emphasis on good, perspective. I love that second perspective when it's done really well. Like for a good example, folks who have read The Night Circus, they have read portions from the second person wherein you are an actual character experiencing this night circus. Now, just like in Simon Jimenez's book, The Spear Cuts Through Water, like it's not consistent all throughout. But what he does is he doesn't stick to a perspective, if you're really interested in cutting-edge kind of styles and books or breaking literary boundaries and things like that, like definitely worth the experience.

Zinzi Brookbree 11:38

We're gonna get into that in the writer's desk.

Katherine Suzette 11:41

I kept seeing in my head the words playing out in like different formatting, and I just kept thinking to myself, "The book has to be creatively formatted." and I would, like that sounds like a fun formatting project, honestly. But the, narration I think would've been better had the same amount of effort that went into the creative formatting been applied to the narration. narrator was excellent. I do not wanna tear that down. But I do think a multiple person cast would have really helped sink in those differing perspectives and the you perspective versus the first person versus the third person, 'cause this author used them all. and I, my, my reader's brain would have

Zinzi Brookbree 12:32

with

Katherine Suzette 12:33

more comfortable and immersed, and I feel like I would have felt that dreamlike fairy tale sitting in the theater experiencing all of this whilst also being the characters in an entirely different way had that cast been in place.

Sage Moreaux 12:47

I found myself doing a lot of deep thinking about the difference between second person and first person, because when you say you, there can be like a distancing. whereas I makes me drawn into the characters more quickly, especially when it's done well. and it made me contemplate if I was feeling a disconnect because of the third person or if it was because of what you said, Zinzi, that this wasn't really my story. It felt like the story of a boy or a man, for one thing, which I have some of my favorite books, the main character is a boy or a man, so then I don't necessarily feel like that's what's taking me away from it. But also just like the feeling, which was fine, but it just wasn't the feeling of my life, and I thought that that was like... So I was contemplating, is it that I'm not associating with this character through the you perspective because of that choice, that literary choice, or am I not feeling that because I don't relate to the character?

Zinzi Brookbree 13:50

That's a good distinction to point out. I wonder, because I also had that feeling of distance, and if we were not reading this book for the book club, the before section of the book, right, that's almost 100 pages of this book, I probably would not have finished it, and I would have DNF'd to somewhere in that section because I f- didn't feel connected to anyone specifically that the story had presented to me. what kept me going, I'm, I'm hopeful for things, is that I did enjoy the prose and the concept of the inverted theater and it being this play, performance, being presented, and how throughout the rest of the story that performance was referenced in little lines. like when... this goes further in, but, when the first terror gets his head chopped off, and the description of how the blood of it is these red petals. And, like, I could picture that on stage where you're not using blood, you're using red fabric to create the illusion of blood, right? Like, And, or a character, as they exit a scene, it's like they exit stage left, right? There's these, all these little embedded references that bring you back to the stage setting. So visually in my head as I was reading or listening, was seeing, oh, here's the action that's happening, but I'm seeing the action happen as this stage Like, Katherine, you'd just be like, poof. Do up in the air in front of the camera instead of a trickle down.

Katherine Suzette 15:36

I got more.

Zinzi Brookbree 15:36

Poof.

Sage Moreaux 15:37

Yeah, from your neck.

Zinzi Brookbree 15:38

yeah.

Katherine Suzette 15:38

Oh, yeah. There you go.

Zinzi Brookbree 15:40

the, um, the usual way when I'm reading a book and I get to visualize what's happening, I see it much more like a movie in my head, but this one I got to see, here's the theater, here's where, character, you, second perspective, is sitting in the eighth row dead center, right? Like even the audience is part of what was in my brain and their potential reactions, or when we were getting the Greek chorus thoughts, like those were pop-up characters.

Katherine Suzette 16:07

I don't think

Zinzi Brookbree 16:09

There you go.

Katherine Suzette 16:09

worked. It didn't go very well.

Zinzi Brookbree 16:11

for audio-only listeners, Katherine has some like red fabrics where she's trying to imitate this, her head getting chopped off and the fabric becoming

Katherine Suzette 16:21

it's actually flowers, flower petals.

Zinzi Brookbree 16:23

Oh, flower petals, sorry.

Katherine Suzette 16:24

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 16:24

damn it, I lost my thought.

Katherine Suzette 16:26

Sorry. I

Sage Moreaux 16:27

You were talking about the theater piece, which I, the, the prose got me really quick early on. I think I mentioned it in the book club, which then because it took me so long to read the book, I kind of fell off of chatting about. But, there was a couple lines early on that got me, and I was like, "I love this book," because the prose is beautiful and the feeling that it's giving me is incredible. The plot didn't hook me enough to where I was like desperate to read it, and I felt like this is a book where I would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't felt like I needed to get through it, but the, and the, I, o- once the theater got introduced and once the You character was in the theater, 'cause I don't think we ever learned his name or gender really, I assumed it was a b- man,

Zinzi Brookbree 17:11

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 17:12

once you were in the theater, I was like, okay, now I do actually, even though I'm struggling to like be motivated to read it 'cause the plot hasn't hooked me or the characters haven't hooked me, I do wanna see how the author pulls this all together at the end. 'Cause I felt like this is a story now where we have the Lola telling the story to this character who's Living in a war environment, kind of modern-ish with radio, so like not super modern, but not old time fantasy. And there was that piece, and then there was this inverted theater piece, and then into the like story of the spear, and I was like, I'm sure that they're gonna come all together at the end, and I wanted to find out what would happen.

Zinzi Brookbree 17:56

the character Yu goes into this theater and brings with them, a spear that has been passed down throughout the family. It's an ancestral spear, that is part of why their Lola, was telling the stories to begin with, connection to the spear and the family history and kind of mythology, speaking of the characters, there wasn't any character that I connected with throughout the duration of the story, but there were characters that I liked. but I wanna ask you guys, what characters were standouts to you?

Katherine Suzette 18:35

Keema, a lot of that has to do with the way that we see him becoming him and kind of just embracing it, choosing to embrace it. I don't think there was a lot of struggle in that situation, but it was still kind of a beautiful little development there. especially, you know, he has a missing arm. He has-- He found an interest in the, imagery representing men with men and then decided and realized he had some romantic interest in his travel partner, Jun. and I just, I kinda, I kinda liked him. I thought he was an interesting character with his, his past history, and almost the kind of very masculine way he kind of chose to ignore it. that, I mean, like, in a very modern American societal way we try to train our men. not saying anything's positive or negative here, just he was, he was kind of ignoring it. He was like, "It is what it is, and past, so here we are."

Sage Moreaux 19:35

can we talk about the missing arm? Is it okay to jump into that? Because I have a strong opinion about that one, and I also liked Keema. he just, like, dealt with things. You know, he was down in the, like, toilet cleaning and, like, I don't know, he just kind of, he had a very stoic, right... He wasn't complaining a lot. He wasn't whining.

Zinzi Brookbree 19:58

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 19:59

the fact that he had a missing arm and the- The different reasons that your arm would be cut off as a punishment were kind of talked about early on, but we never learned what he did to warrant that missing arm and, which is okay, but I was disappointed. And there were stretches of time where I almost forgot that his arm was missing because he was so able, and that I struggled with. But there were lots of things where he, I, in my visual mind, he had two arms because of the way that the scene was being described. I like forgot that there was that physical difference, and it kind of bo- like it started to kind of bother me. I was like, you go be like, be like a whole person even though you have a missing arm, that's great, but it does feel like sometimes maybe something could be a challenge and you overcome it anyways, and it just never felt like anything was a challenge because of that missing arm. Now, that was my overall takeaway.

Zinzi Brookbree 20:59

I had a couple thoughts about the missing arm, one of which, like, with the spear, right, if you don't have... I n- I personally needed a comment where, like, the spear had a loop wrapped around it so he could tuck it onto, like, the stub of the missing arm, and then have his other hand free to do things, right? Because otherwise if he... Or, or some way it attached to his back, right? Some way where he's, his one arm is available to him, and not just holding the spear the whole time once it's given to him. I thought it was an interesting choice not give the reason for the arm being cut off to us, but that in story that is shared with Jun as a romantic, like, to give their relationship more intimacy, is that he gets to have that knowledge even if we don't. And I did appreciate that choice

Sage Moreaux 21:52

Yeah, agree.

Zinzi Brookbree 21:53

Even if it's annoying that I don't get the answer.

Katherine Suzette 21:55

Jun had a very complicated history as well, and, because we're in spoilers, he was essentially, like, grandchild of the gods, son of one of the Terrors, and was a Terror in his own right because he was a part of, th- as one of the sons in this group, they were murderers. they fought for the kingdom. they were the scary monsters that the parents tell their kids about to keep them in line, and he was one of those. And they were red peacocks, and they get a feather for each murder. and he's pretty clear about the way that he says that. I- I- instead of just killing or deed done for the crown or

Sage Moreaux 22:34

Voilà

Katherine Suzette 22:39

he thinks of himself as killing them unnecessarily, that they are murders. and I thought that that was really unique. But also, I realized at some point, I was scrolling around on Pinterest like I do, and of course, I came across one of the, like, fan fiction things of a couple of characters that when you hear it, I hope that you also see what I saw. but it- I wish that I'd had this earlier on in the book, but, like, the, the visuals of the characters never changed for me, but some of my perspective on how they interacted with each other did. saw Zuko and Sokka, that, that fanship of the Zuko and Sokka romance from The Last Airbender,

Zinzi Brookbree 23:22

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette 23:22

and Zuko, he has a bad history. He has a lot of challenges that he goes through, and he has the big red scar across his face. Everybody

Zinzi Brookbree 23:30

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 23:31

there are moments in the story in which he chooses to wear a mask so that other people don't know him, and that's actually when he does a lot of his good deeds. not always, but that, a lot of it is. And When Sokka comes on, he's fun and all of that. He chooses the positive. He's a little bit more stoic, but he still has a lot of things that he went through. I just imagine Sokka with an arm cut off maybe and other history, but Sokka was the one to do the hard tasks without complaining, to kind of take care of everybody else and be the funny guy in the background.

Zinzi Brookbree 24:02

You overlaid those characters onto June and Keema? So go off of that, we are talking about, Keema and June, were your feelings about or reactions to the romance, right? Like this, part of the, in the marketing, this book is a romance, and even Lola tells you this story is a love story, right? Do you, do you think that the love story is June and Keema? I actually think, I mean, yes, there is that, but I think there are multiple layers of love story happening in this book between June and Keema, between, the moon goddess empress and the water. and of the familial love, twisted and tragic as it is, between, the terrors and the mother of the terrors and each other as brothers. And then especially, the love story of Lola passing down the stories and the heritage to you, right? Like a lot of this book

Sage Moreaux 25:08

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 25:09

If I had been in the marketing, I would have marketed around this is a book about storytelling in multiple different forms and from one to another and how it shapes and forms you. would have been the direction I would have taken it. but what do you guys think?

Sage Moreaux 25:21

I agree with everything you just said

Katherine Suzette 25:23

s-

Sage Moreaux 25:23

when I think love story, I pretty much think Keema and Jun. Like, that's the one that stands out the most, and maybe because at the end when they return to the fact that it's a love story, it then wraps their love story up

Katherine Suzette 25:35

I kinda think that that was the surface level one that kind of pieces together some of the others as well. There were journeys of self-love, familial love, the, the twisting and disruption of love when, s- for example, the third terror, well, all the terrors, they still craved the attention of their mother even though they knew she was completely removed from them, and not by her own choice. although she may still have chosen that, 'cause I don't think only she really wanted a connection. But she was essentially trapped, and unable to have any physical proximity to her terrors, her children. but there was a different craving that was also so similar in each of the terrors, and they each got their conclusion moment, with their mother and with each other that I thought was really interesting. not so much with their father.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:24

Yeah. The, the father of the three terrors gets killed by the Moon Empress at the, kinda at the beginning of the story. She explodes him with her power, and then with June. so there isn't, there isn't really resolution or conversation with that father. There is, however, a father in the second perspective, and he abandons his family and goes off to war, right? Like, he's always seeking to be a part of something bigger than himself, and leaves and doesn't come back. And I actually, I have a line

Katherine Suzette 26:54

Yeah, it was definitely

Zinzi Brookbree 26:55

'cause...

Katherine Suzette 26:55

if I'm remembering and I listen to the audio,

Zinzi Brookbree 26:58

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 26:59

an important line

Zinzi Brookbree 27:00

It was highlighted a lot, not just by me. so the, this line that, struck a chord is that, "Fathers leave in all sorts of ways. Some of them leave in the dark. leave only in their heads while their bodies remain, staring at the world around them forever distantly. Others fade out over time like an old photo rubbed raw. Many

Sage Moreaux 27:23

gone

Zinzi Brookbree 27:23

in an instant."

Sage Moreaux 27:24

That's like an example of why I just love this book. That language is incredible

Katherine Suzette 27:29

it's one of those books you've gotta sit with and digest, though.

Sage Moreaux 27:33

I also thought the, there was, I don't have a line for this one, but there was talk, especially with the third terror who was They were all taken from their mother right away, but he really c- like craved his mother,

Katherine Suzette 27:49

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 27:53

it made me think a lot about, like, what makes a mother because she birthed these three terrors, but she never cared for them. They were taken from her, like, immediately, and yet they all wanted her. And even though that, um, he had that third

Zinzi Brookbree 28:10

could substitute for a mother, but he never seemed to really build that connection with her instead as a substitute. There was still... I wonder this for all three of the terrors, is because we see after, Jun and Keema eat the goddess's body, right, that they are connected to each other, that in proximity their thoughts are kind of shared, things like that. I wonder if the terrors also had kind of a, a god connection that made them more desperate for her and not able to a substitute, Because otherwise, I don't understand why the third terror wouldn't have fastened himself onto that caretaker and, and taken in her care, as poor as it was, as a substitute.

Sage Moreaux 29:00

Yeah. It does kind of lead to the idea that they were somehow connected beyond just the physicality of birth

Katherine Suzette 29:07

I think it makes clear that there's some need, some deep-seated need in humans for that original maternal connection, Of some kind. I think at least the first two Terrors, they had other humans around that they could interact with, or, or other characters, their father to a degree and things like that. And I'm not saying they had it any better, but they didn't crave the mother in the same way of the third Terror who was essentially dropped into a, like a Minotaur pit. he, he was the monster. He was the Minotaur in the pit. and that was his only role in life, and he was, he was as subjected to it and tortured by it as everybody else. I don't think he had, like, guilt for murdering people so much, but he never had connection of a maternal sort. But there's still a craving of that connection. This... Simon Jimenez went all over the board and went really deep into a lot of these different explorations of love. It just... Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 30:08

I also really like the way that he, presented, like, sexuality and sexual love, and the images of the pornography and just the kind of blunt, straightforward talking about sex and not in a romantasy kind of way, which obviously this is nothing like a romantasy novel. But that's so prevalent these days with, fantasy romantasy with the way that sex is between the two characters. But this was almost like, like the whole book, there was like a little bit of a stepped back perspective, and I really appreciated that it was-- there was just like a, like it was almost like matter of fact about different sexual feelings, cravings, desires. the, the f- I really liked the, fireworks wagon driver and just his kind of occasional perspective that popped in and I, I don't know, the, there was

Zinzi Brookbree 31:01

his favorite pornographic tablet and, like, was hugging that while he hid underneath the wagon during the ending fight scene.

Sage Moreaux 31:09

Yep.

Zinzi Brookbree 31:11

Yep. That's your comfort blanket right there.

Katherine Suzette 31:15

I

Zinzi Brookbree 31:15

Aw.

Katherine Suzette 31:15

there was a shame removed from it and also, like, a factual, like this, this is human and I, I also appreciate it, not, not in, like, a this was positively represented way, but I do feel like it was kind of accurately and really presented, and I feel like the book would maybe not have been as good if the second terror had not also used, sexual desires to cause genuine harm to others, that were humiliating and, and definitely not desired on, on any side. He, he just did it for the, the humor, the fact that he could control other people and instill these harms on other people that were, were physically humiliating, in, in a weird s- twisted sexual way. I feel like the author presented each of the terrors in a really unique, terrifying and I think that the second terror would not have been as believable, to a degree, without some of what Simon Jimenez chose to bring in on that level.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:22

speaking of the three Terrors, I found them interesting, in the choices that were made to create them. I wanted to know from you guys, like, I personally found hour that the second Terror had the most terrifying out of the options because then it's you're forced to do something that you don't have the power to stop and you're aware of it happening at the same time. Like when,

Katherine Suzette 32:46

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:47

the second Terror

Sage Moreaux 32:48

Absolutely.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:49

the first Terror to murder all of his beloved sons who had just back for his body and put him together, right? and he kills them, and he at least makes it quick. and, like, that's just horrifying. At the same time, he also felt like the most shallow of the Terrors as a character, right? Like there's, there was more depth and love to the first Terror with his love for his sons as, as twisted and complicated as it was. There was more depth for, the third Terror with his, upbringing and struggles and getting to escape and go live a life as a, as a bird and trying different, Animals and getting to have some freedom away from everything else, and then getting drawn back to his mother, which ultimately led to his capture. but there, like, they had more depth, and the middle terror was just kind of a, a whiny jerk middle child of... He got neglect, but he at least commands fear, the third terror, right? With... like, I don't even understand this, this middle child syndrome that he claims to have because the third terror gets kicked out of the palace as an infant.

Katherine Suzette 34:03

I have a perspective. It shows how a person who is actually able to control all of the people in their lives may not ever develop the depth required to have true connection and true understanding with any other being. It's,

Zinzi Brookbree 34:21

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette 34:22

this, this terror, the second terror, he's able to control people's minds and their feelings, so their bodies, their choices, their how they feel about said choices or their bodies, their

Zinzi Brookbree 34:33

could, except for the one guy who had damaged hearing. His power didn't work on him, and that kept pissing off the second terror. So, like, there were people that were an exception to the rule for him. I'm, you know, I'm imagining someone who was completely deaf could act- you know, completely ignore him and just be like, "Screw you. you have no power over me." I'd have loved to see that as a, something that happened. even in a, like... on the boat scenes, and I would have loved to see a, like, an explosion that caused temporary deafness, and then that leading to the defeat of the second terror. Like, how cool would that have been?

Katherine Suzette 35:11

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 35:12

I feel like that there are, there are some missed opportunities far as how the terrors were handled. I would like to transition us over into discussing the magic of this world. Like, we definitely got the origins of the moon goddess, right? Like, that she looked down, on the Earth and saw, the water and fell in love with the water, and part of falling in love with the water but also falling in love with dance and falling in love with people, and the desire to be worshiped, and then asking, "Oh, if you cut me down," right? She gets cut down, from- space so that she doesn't have to die anymore and become a new moon, and she comes down to the Earth and lands on a turtle, grants the turtle, a wish that turns into a curse for the, for the entire rest of the tortoise population because of humans, taking advantage of it. ends up married to the man who cut her down, give, as a reward, gives him what he wants, which he wants sons. He wants to continue his line. with that first one, he, I don't, I can't remember if they actually use their bodies to make children or if he also brings her his seed to drink, and then she gives birth to a child. And like, then all of those children, subsequent children, bring their seed, so her sons are bringing their seed for their mother to drink, and then she's birthing the next child in the emperor line, down until we get to the eighth emperor, she decides she's had enough of this and she splits the power, of the offspring, and that's how we get the Three Terrors, in that they each have a different ability instead of having all ability in one, like the Smiling Sun Emperor and the previous emperors had, right? I'm glad th- they're not, that sons aren't sleeping with the mother every single time to cr- con- continue this god line of power, right? But like, so much of this is about power and retaining that power, and even the Three Terrors, I'm surprised they haven't gone after trying to kill each other before, like, c- for line of succession at some point. If the other emperors died, why the eighth emperor, the Smiling Sun, why aren't his three sons... I mean, the second one does, he doesn't plan on killing his dad, but he's definitely like, "I'm gonna gain more power," and that's why he eats the, that first mother tortoise that caught the moon. Bleh. were there any other characters that we were shown that had magical powers, or it was just the, the, the goddess and her children, and that was it until Jun and Keema The moon goddess after she's expelled the last of her power, and at her invitation... you think the spear is magical?

Sage Moreaux 38:13

It was coated in s- possibly some kind of poison, or it was coated in something that damaged the Third Terror that resulted in it being able to wound the Third Terror in a way that he had never been susceptible to. I believe that the spear was important because it was like the symbol of love

Zinzi Brookbree 38:33

tribe. Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 38:34

But it did happen to have something on, and I think it was a poison, but I misremember, I might be misremembering. It had something on the metal tip that particularly, and it also had something carved into it that was possibly the steps of a dance. And I really loved how dance, to me, dance was also an element of magic, but it wasn't inherently magical. It was just like created this feeling like there was like this power or like...

Zinzi Brookbree 39:04

It was the rhythm. It was the rhythm that the moon goddess felt that, she then talked to Jun about when she was in captivity and tried to coach him into, feeling. And then when Jun gets his god powers at the same time as Keema, he then goes into, This is how I channel power, is through... he starts channeling it through dance first.

Sage Moreaux 39:30

Hmm. There was a lot of this stuff about like they kept wanting to fight each other and then the, and like brawl, which is such a like dude thing I would never consider. But there was lots of brawling, but the brawling turned into dance and the, and at one point like it, it became a dance and I thought that that was a really interesting mirror of the dance and rhythm component. There was also animals. Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 39:57

the-- red peacocks, we had, the purple... Oh,

Sage Moreaux 40:05

He

Zinzi Brookbree 40:06

and The, the silver monkeys, right?

Sage Moreaux 40:09

had--

Zinzi Brookbree 40:10

And those

Sage Moreaux 40:11

Didn't he

Zinzi Brookbree 40:12

were also kind of the names of the guards or, like, that terror's,

Sage Moreaux 40:17

have a

Zinzi Brookbree 40:21

for? Like, their soldier, their guards. retinue. 'cause the first terror had the red peacocks, the second terror was the silver monkeys, and then the third terror, was the purple elk.

Sage Moreaux 40:34

wolf face?

Zinzi Brookbree 40:35

for the third terror when he first shows up as a purple bird, and then I'm like, "And there's purple elks? Okay, that's, th- clearly those are tied together. Thank you for

Sage Moreaux 40:46

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 40:47

I see your smokesnicl- signal over there of foreshadowing what this character is.

Katherine Suzette 40:52

did not put that together until the very end, honestly

Zinzi Brookbree 40:55

I don't know if those animals had specific powers under other than that sequence of the three an- representations of those three animals leading the Yu character, during a th- a theater sequence, to go have an interaction, believe. versus, like, the tortoises, one of my favorite things out of this book is just the idea of the tortoises being a telephone n- Like, it's used horribly. They are being abused to do this, and my cozy fantasy heart is just like, "I would love to see a version of this where those are, like, beloved and well-treated animals who are choosing to be a telephone system," as opposed to what this is. And then we get the, the death of, the... I don't wanna call him Defect. I know that's his name, but it feels awful and I hate it.

Sage Moreaux 41:51

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 41:52

I'm also really pissed off about the way that that character died, and there was barely any acknowledgement of it in that middle of that whole fight sequence thing, and then not mentioned for the rest of the story, until it comes down to that tortoise's...

Sage Moreaux 42:11

Love

Zinzi Brookbree 42:14

of the mother tortoise and the second terror who ate her, the ability to be a telephone network is lost, and then all of these tortoises are unmoored, don't have that ability, can't communicate with each other. But they're all left with this last memory from this tortoise of traveling on the river- Free, enjoying nature, feeling the sun on its face, a juicy fly, just and reveling in freedom, and then all of those tur- tortoises then go and pursue that at the end of the story, whether they're successful or not. but, like, that, I, I, I wanted more of that story. I found that so beautiful, tragic and beautiful.

Sage Moreaux 42:59

Yeah,

Zinzi Brookbree 42:59

I did not need

Sage Moreaux 43:04

into the tortoise magic, seeing as how, and like you said, it was like a gift and a curse. But there was not a lot of time spent on the other animals, but they were mentioned. And I could have used more on that, especially if it was as in-depth.

Zinzi Brookbree 43:19

The Terror, eating both the mother tortoise and his own mother's fingers while still alive was I don't know how we picked a book with cannibalism. That just, it did not on my radar go, "This is gonna be a thing." thing Not for me, can't get past it. Nope. do not pass go.

Sage Moreaux 43:44

fingers and she was alive and there was some like really gruesome description of that and she was feeling the pain of it

Zinzi Brookbree 43:51

like, her, her being the bear and then, like, getting disrupted of what she's trying to do because also she's feeling her body being eaten. Like, that whole sequence of her being the bear is one of my favorite parts of the book, getting her perspective, getting the, this action stuff happening, the struggle of like, "Keema can't... D- doesn't understand that I'm me even though now I'm a bear. W- how could he be such an idiot? What do I do?" and then you're also like, as a human being, you're going like, "Yeah, a bear is charging at me and I'm in a locked cage. Of course I'm gonna be terrified and not, think, 'Oh, this is the moon goddess we've been carting around for the last...'"

Sage Moreaux 44:30

Obviously

Zinzi Brookbree 44:31

all happens, this whole book, I think, is supposed to take place over, like, five days or something. Like, the, the journey of... So quick, and yet the book's length takes so long to do all this stuff. We need to keep moving along. So, let's move into discussing, some of the stuff from the writer's desk.

Sage Moreaux 44:55

So when I am reading as a writer, I always read the acknowledgments as I used to when I was very first starting to write. The acknowledgments scared me because I didn't have other people in my writing life that I would imagine ever being able to Like, I was like, "How do I don't have a team. It's just me. There's no one for me to

Zinzi Brookbree 45:21

the list?

Sage Moreaux 45:22

Who would I put on the list?" And that was actually, this was years ago, but it was a wake-up call to me to, to recognize that I needed a writing community, right? And that that was something that was really important. Like, obviously when you are being published, you, unless you self-publish, like totally go it alone, you're, you have a team of people that you're working with at that point. you can of course like acknowledge your family and your friends and people like that, but it was a, I recognized years ago that

Zinzi Brookbree 45:51

Glad

Sage Moreaux 45:56

was me realizing that that was something that was lacking in my writing life and I, and so I sought out to pursue it.

Zinzi Brookbree 46:01

you found

Sage Moreaux 46:03

the, I got exactly

Zinzi Brookbree 46:05

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 46:06

the dedication is at the end of the book instead of the beginning, which was, I had noticed that when I like looked at the table of contents, 'cause I was like, "Wow, these are long chapters." I generally prefer kind of shorter chapters as a way to like pace my reading. but so I was looking at the table of contents and I was like, "Oh, dedication's at the end. That's an interesting choice." And the dedication was, "This one's for me," and I was like, "Hmm, that gives me a very lovely feeling about like any kind of personal challenges I might have had while reading," and I did, I do really actually love reading books that are different because There's reading to kind of just escape or unwind from the day, and then there's reading to make yourself think. And I do believe in the fantasy genre, a lot of books can be used to make us contemplate social or political or personal issues from a outside perspective because it's not real world, right? It's, there's this, like, veil between our personal existence and this fantasy world that's created and lets us look at it a little differently. But, so anyways, when he wrote that, I w- I was like, "Oh," I don't know, that just touched me really nicely. And then the, the, acknowledgments are in you perspective, and it says, "you acknowledge the ones who have brought you this far. You begin with a toast to your prepub readers," and then he goes on. And the fact that it was put in you perspective and the, and the, dedication to himself, I was like, "Okay, this is, like, his story." And since I wasn't able to connect through the you perspective as well at the beginning, like, thinking of that you character as me, I w- it never was. To me, it always was the author, and that just gave me this really lovely feeling that, you know, people write for all different reasons, and I really loved that he wrote this book for himself and acknowledged it.

Zinzi Brookbree 48:01

There's a book club discussion guide that goes along with this book,

Sage Moreaux 48:04

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 48:09

every time he writes a book, he's always writing and attempting, to write it from the perspective that this is gonna be the last one. He might not have any more books in him, or something

Sage Moreaux 48:20

The

Zinzi Brookbree 48:25

wants whatever one that he's currently working on to have, everything that he intended it to, right? and I think that is part of why we get so many beautiful things in The Spear That Cuts Through Water, but where some of its flaws come from, that there are places where it feels like it's doing too much, and that it doesn't, fully have as much closure as it potentially could have if it wasn't doing so many things. right, like

Sage Moreaux 49:01

tall order.

Zinzi Brookbree 49:06

be like, "I want this favorite trope and this favorite trope and this favorite thing over here, and I've got these characters going on over there," because I want it all to fit, But at the same time, because he's writing for himself, that this is a story for himself, that he's-- And I can't imagine that if it's for yourself, that part of your writing isn't also your life, processing your own experiences, processing things that have made you who you are positively and negatively. Like, some of that clearly bled into the themes of this story of, heritage and coming into your own, and those were beautiful to experience. can I ask you guys, point of view-wise, right, we had the second person for you, we had third person, and then later once they came into godhood, first person for Keema and June. and then we had first person for the moon goddess, and then we had the, the popping up Greek chorus stuff. Like, were those different uses of point of view? Clearly they were intentional, right? But, like, do you feel like some of them brought you closer to the story where other ones held you at a distance and those were intentional?

Katherine Suzette 50:20

It's kinda like that classic show versus tell concept. Like, both have their places and their uses, and we hear over and over and over in the writing world, "Show, don't tell." that's fine and fair most of the time because readers tend to connect and feel more with show. However, tell has its place. It really, really does. And the, the use of these perspectives is so clearly intentional, it has to be experienced through these lenses. The story would be entirely different if the author had made a different choice. At least in the first couple quarters, I really believed that the book would've been better suited if a different choice was made. By quarter three, I agreed with the author. By quarter four, I actually loved it.

Sage Moreaux 51:04

At first, when I was reading the Greek chorus sections, I didn't quite understand what was happening. Like, when it was very first introduced, I was like, "I don't-- Like, I'm so confused."

Zinzi Brookbree 51:14

thought come from? What the heck?

Sage Moreaux 51:15

Yeah. Why are we jumping around point of view so much? Like, it's interesting and I'm curious about it, but I'm also like, you know, I, I do tend to often read late at night, and that might be part of it as well. But, a little ways in, it kind of just struck me of how brilliant to-- And also 'cause this-- I tend to really prefer third person, like really close perspective,

Zinzi Brookbree 51:40

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 51:41

have that so much with the, with Keema or Jun Keema maybe more, but it felt a little bit more like of an omniscient third perspective, or weaved. It went everywhere it needed to go to tell the story. But at a certain

Zinzi Brookbree 51:57

weaved this story for sure.

Sage Moreaux 52:00

Point that it got where I was like, this is such a lovely way to deepen and broaden the story at the same time with being able to have the perspectives of these characters in the world just for a moment, and to get a greater understanding of the world that exists without very many words. I really loved that use of the first person for that.

Katherine Suzette 52:27

So there's this concept I try to, try to help authors with sometimes wherein, sometimes zooming in on the character and what happens is so much more effective than zooming out and telling us what happens. This is a very clear show, don't tell. the child's shoe, this person coming across the child's shoe in a war zone. There's blood and all that kind of thing. But th- that's it. They just notice this shoe without a partner or without a child in it or, or anything else, or you know, like the, like the stuffed animal and things like that.

Zinzi Brookbree 52:59

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 52:59

you can smell the burning timbers. you can see this shoe and, like, there's a sadness, a distinct sadness, and there's no explanation necessary. There's no tell of what's going on necessary in those moments, and I kind of felt like these little chorus moments were a beautiful representation of, like, that done in a different way, 'cause it was a zoom-in on all these characters just, just for a fleeting moment, and it was so very human, too. Like, our connection, our being understood by another is such a fleeting moment. Like, outside of potentially a romantic partnership like Jun and Keema had, that fleeting moment was so relatable. Like, that's all that we know about these characters, and yet we understand a lot about them and what brought them to these moments, who they are, and how it ended.

Sage Moreaux 53:52

It did a really nice job of showing both sides of the story. So you had, you know, whatever action death was happening, and then you-- the person who it was happening to, and that layered so much extra understanding of the event, like you were saying, Katherine, in a very small amount of words.

Zinzi Brookbree 54:12

I have a couple of favorite lines that I wanted to share with you guys, and if you guys had any, feel free. A little snippet that I really loved, that I saved to read to you guys was, "You have my condolences for this loss, warrior." She bowed her head. "I hope that their end was mighty." And this is Keema replying, have yet to witness an end that was." Right? Like, there's, there is no noble sacrifice, there's no death that you can have that is mighty in the end,

Sage Moreaux 54:51

I, have two quotes. the first is page four. This is what got me to have the early love for the story, and it's the story of the moon and the water's love. And it says, "And though they occupied different spheres, they were able to visit one another through less direct means, for there is no barrier in this life that love cannot overcome."

Zinzi Brookbree 55:14

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 55:14

And I was like, "Okay, I'm all in." And then still struggled to get through the, the, like, length of until we were into the main story. But then there was another quote towards the end, and I think it was, it was when the daughter. What's her name? Shan? Shawn?

Zinzi Brookbree 55:31

Shan.

Sage Moreaux 55:32

Shan. And she's talking to Lord, her grandfather, Lord Induen. And, she's going to find her father who's been imprisoned for so long, and he's like, "Why?" You know, he's raised her, and he's like, "Why are you risking everything to see him safely? You've never met him." And he says, at So she's like, "Yes, I'm gonna do that." And he says, "At least tell me why." And she says, "What a country we will be when we are led by a man who has to ask such a question." And she's being ironic 'cause he's about to take over, right? Even though he ends up not taking over. And I was just like, "Yes, thank you."

Katherine Suzette 56:08

There was one that sticks in my head in which the tortoise was talking that one stuck with me because it felt really relevant to modern current times in our world.

Zinzi Brookbree 56:18

"I have lived a long time," she said. "And the longer I live, the more it surprises me and saddens me how wise the young must become to live in this world." the line, Katherine. Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 56:30

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 56:30

That one really stuck with me. That, the impact of that one did.

Sage Moreaux 56:34

Then from a writing perspective, there was just one description that, like, so stood out to me, and it was right at the end, 'cause there-- I don't really feel like the characters were s- heavily described, but it just, it's talking about Keema. It says, "A bone dagger of a boy." And I was like, that's such a great, like, you're not saying anything specific about his looks, but it's describing him so well in so few words.

Zinzi Brookbree 56:58

I really like this line, and this, again, is one that I was, that I think about, in the context as a writer, in the context of looking at other, genres and written work and how, we tell stories and... So this particular one is, "I thought this was a love story. You regret having said it if you know it will lessen the quality of the tale, rob it of its smoke and shadow." The way romance stories, love stories, they're always, they're treated as lesser, a, a great majority of the time, culturally,

Katherine Suzette 57:35

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 57:36

to have that spelled out in this, that, like, to say it's a love story m- loses its smoke and shadow, loses its depth and maybe terror is some of what I get out of that line, and I wish that wasn't the case.

Katherine Suzette 57:50

Yeah. I thought that that was kinda like the author's way of rebelling against somebody potentially telling him that this didn't read like a romance, and I thought that was great.

Zinzi Brookbree 58:01

doesn't.

Katherine Suzette 58:03

'cause like we said before, the, the love addressed in here is so many variants and so much depth, it's almost like the theme itself is an exploration of what love is and how love can be challenged. And I don't know what that line is necessarily for the author, but this, the depth of exploration of- Both the beauty and the travesty of love, and yet he still wraps it up with Jun and Keema falling in love is gorgeous.

Zinzi Brookbree 58:30

So we are gonna wrap this up really quick. this was... an outlier of a book for us in that, it wasn't a universally loved story. It's not a, something that we all decided, "Oh, we're gonna, we're gonna rave about this," and, and

Katherine Suzette 58:43

in

Zinzi Brookbree 58:43

But, like, there is a richness to it, and, it is a thinking book. And so you've listened this far and you haven't read it, I highly recommend that you give it a shot just to see about the complexity of layers that that, that the story about storytelling has going on. In the meantime,

Katherine Suzette 59:03

comments.

Zinzi Brookbree 59:04

Yes. in the meantime, going forward for the podcast for the summer, we will be changing our format somewhat. we will be taking a break from our monthly books to do a read-along of This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Iona Andrews over the summer. We're very excited about this, and we hope you will read along with us. we will be covering chapters one through five in the first episode, with our spoiler episodes getting into the details at the end of the season. outside of this podcast, we run monthly writing retreats, as Book Dragon Ink, as well as, weekly Zoom write-ins with me, Zinzi Bree. love for you to check those out, and you can find, all of those links in the show notes. If you just like our book stuff here on the pod, you can check out our Substack where you can support us directly. Thank you especially to our subscribers Ria Nancoo and The Archive Transmissions, I hope I'm pronouncing those correctly. Thank you so much for your support.

Katherine Suzette 1:00:01

If you don't wanna support us monetarily, please, please leave us a review. It really helps to bring us to the attention of other listeners out there.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:00:11

Thank you so much for joining us. See you next time.

Sage Moreaux 1:00:15

Hi,

Katherine Suzette 1:00:15

See

Sage Moreaux 1:00:16

everyone.