Punching the Clock: Think You Were Wrongfully Fired? Wage & Hour Claims with Nick De Blouw

Think every firing is illegal? Think again.

In this episode of Punching the Clock, employment attorneys Mila Arutunian and Nick De Blouw break down one of the most misunderstood areas of California employment law: wage and hour claims, PAGA lawsuits, arbitration agreements, class actions, and employee rights.

Learn how meal and rest break violations happen, what employers are legally required to provide, why arbitration agreements matter, and how employment lawyers determine whether someone actually has a case.

Then, things take a hilarious turn as Mila and Nick share some of the most outrageous stories from their years practicing employment law—including bizarre past client voicemails, unbelievable settlement demands, Batman-style death threats, and the unforgettable personalities they've encountered while representing employees.

In this episode:
- Wage & hour claims explained
- California meal and rest break laws
- PAGA and class action lawsuits
- Arbitration agreements and employee rights
- Common wrongful termination myths
- Behind-the-scenes stories from employment lawyers
- Outrageous client voicemails and unforgettable legal encounters

Whether you're an employee trying to understand your workplace rights or just love hearing unbelievable stories from the legal world, this episode is packed with practical advice, humor, and real-life experiences from the front lines of employment law.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:06

Everyone who's ever fired thinks it's illegal and Googles, I was wrongfully terminated and then calls all of our funds. What's some of the craziest calls that you've ever gotten?

SPEAKER_01 0:16

You know, there's like a hitting full document. The hey, if you don't have my money ready, um you're gonna be the first person that I come to see at your office, so you better get on your job. In a Batman voice though, like really deep.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

Welcome to Punching the Clock. I'm Mila Eritunian, and joining me today is fellow employment attorney Nick DeBlau. We're gonna have a conversation about class actions, wage and hour claims, some insane past client voicemails, and how all of that can inform you at knowing your rights at work. Now, as many of you know, my employment practice is primarily discrimination, sexual harassment, and retaliation cases. Nick takes on different types of cases, more related to the labor laws themselves. And I'm excited to have him on today to break down these concepts for you. So, Nick, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. This is actually literally called punching the clock. So I figured you would be this perfect guest because we work together on a lot of um class action and poga and wage an hour lawsuits, which are not my favorite because they're a little boring. And I'm just so grateful for our relationship and collaboration to work these cases together.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

I'm trying to figure out usually when I see Mila, you are cooking lamb or you know, is there food involved today? Are we just doing the podcast?

SPEAKER_03 1:50

I'm sorry, I did not bring any lamb today. But come over soon. Come over soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Our practice, uh, as you know, we're 100% wage an hour paga. Uh very exciting stuff. But, you know, I think here in California, it's different than the rest of the U.S., right? These are the laws that are protecting without some of these meal and rest break laws in Paga, you don't have access to the courthouse as it as an employee, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:18

Unless you're talking to Mila and you have some sort of uh But only if there's a protected class or a protected complaint at place. So So under the law, there are um claims under the Fair Employment and Housing Act, which are discrimination, harassment, retaliation. If people are treating you differently because of your race or your gender, your ethnicity, your religion, that's discrimination. And then if um you make a complaint and then you're treated differently because of it, and the complaint is of something you reasonably believed was illegal, that is retaliation. If subsequently you become terminated or your hours are cut or you're demoted, that can all be retaliation. So those are claims under the Fair Employment and Housing Act. Then there are also laws that employers are required to follow under the labor code. Um, the amount of breaks and lunches you're required to take, um, the hours you're required to work, how much you have to be paid. There are uh numerous obligations that employers also have under the labor code. So a lot of times, even if you can't bring laws under the Fair Employment and Housing Act, but you're an hourly employee, you may have claims under the labor code. And that's when we call Nick. And Nick, tell us a little bit about the wage and hour cases and what they mean.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

They're so different than I call the hard cases, yeah. The cases that you do, because you know, you're you're gonna go and you're gonna get into a depot and you're gonna have to get into some facts in order to prove that, hey, there's been some discrimination, right? Or uh the timing of it has to match up. The wage and hour claims are so different because they're really just it's it's data, it's payroll. So when we get into a case, we're really less obviously, you know, if you're really litigating it, you have to do some um PMK depositions, persons most knowledgeable within the company about their payroll practices. Sure, those can be you know technical, but everything that we want is in the data.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

So it's uh the fight is to get the Excel spreadsheet payroll data. But then once we have that, we know where we're gonna look. We know what expert we're gonna send it to, and then that expert's gonna go through it and say, hey, you know, it looks like they were shaving five minutes every day. Right. It's something that is never gonna be, you're not gonna be able to tell that from a pay stub or you know, usually even anecdotal facts. Uh oh, it looks like they've never paid one meal premium to their 5,000 workers. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

So but it does happen.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

It does happen. Um, but I the wage and hour cases are much easier to have that evidence. And I think that's why you see in our industry most of the cases that we file, you're in mediation within the first year. Yeah. And if you're not, you might be settling individually because the defense has said, hey, we're pretty clean. Here's our data. Go ahead and have your expert look at it. Right. Which happens quite a bit too. So yeah, I've really enjoyed being in the space for 15 years as an employment lawyer because it is one of those areas of law where you do feel like you're at least making a little bit of a difference, even though your maybe your clients aren't as um happy sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

I I think it's really important. And and for our listeners, a little bit of background. I met Nick when I was still in law school. Um, he was dating a friend of mine, and we became friends, and we've kept in touch all these years. Uh, and initially when I went to work on the defense side, we kind of stayed in touch. And I remember you were always like, Well, if you want to come over to the plaintiff side.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

We were wondering when you would stop working for the for the dark side. Happy to see you come to the to the plaintiff side, but sad to to not see you at our firm. But I think it it worked out.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

So, you know, I personally prefer it more of the discrimination, harassment, retaliation cases when people are wronged on an individual basis. But then every once in a while we get cases that are more class cases where they're not giving their meal breaks properly or rest breaks, and I send them to Nick and we see if we're able to um file a class action and we take those cases together. Cynic, why don't you talk a little bit about that process?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah, and the, you know, the class cases in the in the representative cases, as you can imagine, a lot of these people, they they also have the sexual harassment or discrimination. So I I I don't want to pigeonhole our firm into hey, we're only class or uh paga, just because if you look at the cases that we filed, we are bringing a lot of individual claims with the class claims, right? Because these people are gonna have to waive those claims in any way, right? Once they sue. So and I I actually enjoy that. Um getting to know you better and see your practice. But it it's kind of like, okay, wait, there's some claims here that might actually, first of all, uh they're worth they could be worth money, but but I think more importantly, that is what the client wants.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

They're more worried about, hey, I went on pregnancy leave and I came back and they didn't have my right, they demoted me or they kind of were treating me a little bit differently. So as I get into the practice, I think I enjoy those cases a little bit more because you know they're more they're emotionally attached to the case. And um I think we can all relate. Uh, you know, when you or at least people with kids, when you go on pregnancy leave, uh, you have a lot of other things that you're dealing with in your life. So then to come back to work and have some sort of adverse employment action. Yeah. Right. Uh I think it's important to have at least give those people a voice.

SPEAKER_04 7:43

I agree. I will say that having worked both sides, generally speaking, in the large scheme of things, the class action cases are just as important, if not more important, in implementing policy changes within, you know, employers and and especially big employers as the individual cases, probably even more, because when these class action cases come across, first of all, they're extremely expensive to defend. Um, when I was on the defense side, uh, insurance policies usually don't cover them.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah, that's right. It's usually almost never triggered unless we bring the individual.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

And that's the thing. Yeah. So most insurance policies for employers say that if there's discrimination, harassment, retaliation, that'll cover them. But if it's wage an hour stuff, we're not covering. So a lot of times, unless there's also an individual claim, they won't cover. So the employer has to defend it out of pocket. And for employers who don't have loads and loads of money, oftentimes that's difficult, especially when you have a class of a hundred or more employees, each of whom missed one break, that adds up very quickly. But then on top of that, when those cases resolve, the employer takes such a financial hit that they're like, okay, we're gonna clean everything up. We're gonna make sure this never happens to us again.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

And then they're sued six months later. Well, and I think that is the, you know, that is why you see the business groups now, right, getting together, uh, you know, putting $30 million together, getting signatures, trying to get pot the initiatives on the ballot to get rid of some of these actions, because in their view, they they can never follow the law. But I think the reality is if you're, you know, in the land of milk and honey, you have to follow all the rules. California is is a very lucrative state to do business in. And um, and but you'll see that in our business. Uh it's very common to have a company settle, pay, and then three months later, or even before the court is granted approval, there's a case that's already filed. So crazy. Yeah, it really is.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Do these cases ever go to trial?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

I would say maybe 1% uh of the cases that we litigate go to trial. Um very few and far between. What we what we are seeing a lot, obviously, with the arbitration agreements are individual ARP trials. So we have one next week.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

So talk a little bit about that. So if uh someone signs an arbitration agreement, then they are not allowed to bring a PAGA or a class action case, is that right?

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Generally, right? But as as good lawyers as you and I are, um, we're gonna make sure that we we review that arbitration agreement, fine tooth and comb, and make sure that there's no procedural or substantive challenges to it. And a lot of the courts are we've had some really good rulings from different judges on those agreements that would allow us to stay in court, which is where you want to be. Uh, and then another, we just had a ruling last week in a case where the judge uh denied, uh excuse me, granted the defendant's motion to compel arbitration because the arbitration agreement uh was, you know, not it was considered to be um airtight and there was no challenges that, or at least our challenges weren't accepted. So but arbitration is where your case kind of goes to die a little bit, is is is our view. Um obviously it's private. The the arbitrators, a lot of them, their bread is buttered by the defense side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

And the defense has to pay the arbitrator's bills. It's the law says that.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Yeah, so you know, and if you look at the stats, you're gonna see the numbers are skewed uh in a in a very big way for the defense side. So um although we have great lawyers at our firm uh doing ARB trials, especially for wage and hour issues, we we haven't seen as much success as as we have liked. So one way to do it is stay out of arbitration. Yeah, review those arbitration agreements when they come up in your case. And what what we're doing is we're we're really taking a shot at most of them at this point to try to get them, uh get the judge to rule that the agreement's no good.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

So if the arbitration agreement is valid, do you ever take the individual claims to arbitration?

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Oh yeah. We're we're I mean, effectively you're you're forced to.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Right. Uh so once you know the judge's ruling comes down, your case is compelled to ARB. Depending on the wording of the agreement, not to bore everyone uh with the technicalities of PAGA, but depending on the wording of the agreement, you might be able to have your representative actions stayed in court while you litigate the individual claims, whether that's you know, if you have discrimination in those, of course, but you could also then be litigating the the individual paga claim, which this issue has gone up to the Supreme Court. Um, it's it's actually going to be ruled on again in Leaper v ships, which is a case we're all kind of waiting for to see um, you know, what happens with these individual paga claims. And uh it's it's it's you know, working in the industry, it's seem it's kind of common sense. But when you take a step back and look at all these rulings, it's pretty complex and technical.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

And I want to explain a little bit about arbitration and what that means, just in case people don't know. So when you sign an arbitration agreement, sometimes your employer will come to you and say, you have to sign this arbitration agreement if you want to remain working here. That is actually legal. Unfortunately, your employer can require you to sign an arbitration agreement as a term of continuing your employment with that employer. And what that arbitration agreement means is that you're waiving your right to take your case in front of a jury if you ever have to sue your employer. You have to take your case in front of an arbitrator. Now, there are positives and negatives of going to arbitration. Most of the time, arbitrators who are paid for by the employer are going to be more in favor of the employer. They also are not as sympathetic as a jury would be. So when they're making their ruling, they look closely at the laws and they don't really look at the emotional aspect of things. So a lot of times, especially if there's discrimination or harassment involved, those arbitration uh judgments are much smaller than a jury verdict would be. Plus, there's limited discovery in arbitration. The arbitrator can basically rule whatever they want, and there's no real way to appeal that ruling. And yes, when you sign the arbitration agreement, you are basically bound to arbitration unless there's something off on the agreement that makes it unenforceable or invalid. Is that a summary?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

No, it's a great summary. I would just add, you know, it's like the procedural, uh, what's called a procedural unconscionability, right? That can be obviously you're looking, you know, the arbitration agreement's terms, the substantive part, is there anything wrong with what they're doing? And if there's not, you still could have procedural unconscionability, which is hey, if they if they put you into a room and they're like, here's this stack of documents, we need these sign in the next 10 minutes. Well, that pressure may lend, right? If there's if there's enough procedural unconscionability and then there is some substantive unconscionability, like, hey, we're gonna um, you know, you have to pay the the the uh arbitrator fees or you have to litigate your arbitration in Texas. Right. Well, those couple of things, that's what a judge may look at it and say, This is no good. Yeah. You know, so while the employer um they do have the ability to make it mandatory, what they can't do is make the situation as you're signing it one in which that we might call it, you know, there's a little maybe there's undue duress, right, that they're under to sign it. So those things we do go back to the clients and say, hey, where we have those facts. Let's put this in a declaration. The way that you sign the agreement, right? What was going on, who was the person in the room, what did they tell you? What was what was, you know, all the circumstances. And that has helped in multiple cases to sway the judge to deny a defendant's motion to compel. You know, they can do a lot, but they can't do everything, the employer.

SPEAKER_04 15:31

Well, and I used to think, I mean, it depends on the case, but it depends on your amount of damages. In order to take a case all the way through arbitration, that's like 50 to 100K for the employer to pay out of pocket.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yeah, at least. At least. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:46

So I used to think that, oh, well, if my case is worth less than that, most employers would probably rather pay the plaintiff, you know, $50,000 at the very beginning of a case before we spend any money than spend all this money to maybe pay a little bit less later. But a lot of employers have taken the position that, like, no, we'd rather pay out of principle and to set a precedent and take it to arbitration and screw you. We don't care what your case is worth. Just and and then they will like work it to work the plaintiff to the ground because they know that plaintiff's firms are paying everything out of pocket and they have much deeper pockets than plaintiffs' firms.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yeah, what do you think that is though? Like for me, I think like, okay, well, that's just because defense firms get paid to shit stall and delay. Sorry to swear, but that's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

They literally get paid by the hour to do this.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

I think it has less to do with the employer being like, hey, we don't want to pay this person, and more with the defense milking the clock. This is how they're gonna make their money. And then eventually, usually before trial, there is some sort of offer to pay, or even a nine nine eight, which um, if there's only individual claims, a little bit easier to deal with. Uh, unfortunately, when there's PAGA claims, nine nine eight are we've had them, but they they don't really make sense in the representative um aspect of cases. But yeah, I think that has more to do with the defense firms wanting to line their pockets than it does necessarily employers not understanding the cost of, you know, maybe defense and just paying early.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

No offense to you. I know you're on the defense side, you know, years ago, but um a little bit jaded about that.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

No, I agree. So they called me the closer. They called me the closer because a case would come in and I'd be like, okay, let's pay $10,000 to make this go away, or you can pay me $30,000 to take this through demurr and then like maybe settle it out for $5,000 later because it's worth nothing. But I would always assess the claim at the very beginning. But that's why my clients loved me and wanted to keep coming to me. But a lot of defense attorneys will do the opposite because rather than having clients that keep coming back, because companies will keep retaining the same attorney if they like them, they would rather have one case but bill, you know, uh $200,000 on it. And then at the end still pay the plaintiff $20,000 or whatever two years later after expending all these attorneys' fees. But the clients are never happy with those attorneys, and they usually will end up hiring a different firm next to the case.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

For the next case. Absolutely. That that's what I think, I think it's more of a uh lack of understanding of the legal process for some especially if it's especially if it's a smaller employer.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

Let's talk about clients and potential clients.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yes. Oh, the best part.

SPEAKER_04 18:28

Yes. So I feel like I always talk about this that I love using social media for marketing because we get much more niche potential clients who I I'll post about retaliation or discrimination. And people are like, oh, that that happened to me. Let me call Mila. Versus like SEO and Google searches, when you do the pay per click, everyone who's ever fired thinks it's illegal and Google, I was wrongfully terminated, and then calls all of our firms if we're paying for SEO marketing. So what's some of the craziest calls you've ever gotten?

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Oh man. I mean, there's just, you know, there's a list. Um there, there's there's probably a hundred crazy calls, death threats, and you know, uh in the context of, hey, I want a loan, okay. We can't give you a loan because in class actions, all the money is held by a third party. So we never touch it. So we can't sign the loan companies always, you know, the pre uh, you know, settlement funding loan companies. Well, they come to us and say, hey, here's a document. How much is the case, you know, gonna settle for, even if there's already like a settlement? And here, sign this that when the client gets paid, you're basically signing off that they're gonna get paid. But as class action lawyers, we can't do that. We don't handle the money, it's all handled by a third party appointed by the court. So over the years, what I've done is I just don't respond to the loan companies. And so when clients get to that point in a case where they want a loan on the settlement and they're calling me, emailing me, why won't you respond to the loan companies? It that's the context that I've received the death threats, you know, like, hey, sign this settlement paperwork, or I'm or I'm coming to the office type of thing. Right. And you don't know, like maybe it's just a hothead. But there have been stories in actually here in California, I can't remember, I think it was about seven, eight years ago, it was an employment lawyer, and the client showed up and shot him. And and so I think we have to be cognizant of like there's some people um that we represent that probably uh emotionally are pretty unstable.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

Yeah. And I mean, thinking about when people get fired, it's really emotional for them. And and especially people who are coming off long-term jobs, or they've been laid off multiple times, or they can't find another job and they have to feed their families, or they're about to lose their house. There's a lot more at stake than just being fired.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah. And you get the death threat and you realize probably why they were fired.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Yeah, you go to the employment file, kind of it's like, oh, this person is aggressive towards you you may have dealt with this, but you know, there's been a lot like a handful of death threats. The hey, if you don't have my money ready, um, you're gonna be the first person that I come to see at your office, so you better get on your job in a Batman voice, though, like really deep. Like it sounded like Batman was calling you. Oh, I have I I do have them, but um, for client confidentiality reasons, um, obviously I can't play them.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

We'll use our imagination.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

I do have I do have a uh voicemail that we probably can play.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah, I do. Because this is there's this is not a client.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I don't know if anyone's getting the message. My name is And I'm wondering where my case is gonna be filed to me. I got all these other lawyers trying to help me, right? Because we all work together, you know, taking their businesses. So where's my law? You should be ashamed of yourself as you work with God every day, taking down companies, shaking them out, taking their insurance money, and raping America. God bless you, folks.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Raping America?

SPEAKER_01 22:49

I laugh because that is like I'm in I'm in like month eight of my legal career. This is years ago. And this is like one of the first voice messages I get. I was like, did I pick the wrong profession here? Like this is seeming to be.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Okay, you want to hear something weird and kind of messed up? I actually there were parts of that where I kind of sympathized with.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

I totally get it, but but he's wrong. We don't have uh we're not shaking insurance companies out because he's paying for it, not the insurance. Uh also, maybe don't pay your employees $100 cash every day and just think that that works. Um, that was that was one of the claims that we had in the case. He had just received uh he had just been served the copy of the lawsuit. So he was sending us this is back in 2012. So people are still using fax machines, you know. So he's sending us, we're getting like stacks of faxes, and it's just crazy stuff. Like I don't I I can't remember what some of it was. And uh and then obviously we we received this voice I received this voicemail too. And so yeah, it was just in response to the um the lawsuit that was just filed, and he was he was not happy about it. And you know, uh obviously if you own a company and you've just sued been served with a a a lawsuit, uh I'm sure it's never a good feeling being sued. And and so I think that's where you sympathize with it a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

I think I I I've seen a lot of companies where they think they're doing right by their employees, they think they're putting in effort, they feel like they are, even if they're not complying with all the laws, and they just get very upset because they feel like they've put their heart into and soul into their business and their employees, and how dare they sue us. And employment lawsuits become very personal.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:34

And it's so interesting. People don't think that they do. I feel that personal injury lawsuits don't ever get personal. People are just like, okay, well, here are my injuries, here's the car insurance. Like, no one thinks that. But employment lawsuits, there are so many feelings emotional.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Well, that's interesting because I would think that the personal injury lawsuits are even more emotional because here we are with, you know, some injuries, uh, at least the because yeah, that's right. You've you've done both.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

Yeah, and I do both now. And I mean, I don't have I do have like one pretty severe case where a woman was very badly injured, hit by a semi-truck, but she knows it's not their fault and it's not the company's fault, it's not the driver's fault. It was just like a shitty accident.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

And now she's very badly injured, and we're trying to get the most we can for her to pay for her treatment. She has all kinds of injuries and she's very sad, but she's not mad at anyone.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

You know the difference? Maybe the difference is it's like the employment, like, this is your life, this is every day. You go and do it. Whereas the accident is one thing that's happened, and um, but that's interesting, yeah. It's definitely emotionally charged. I also had a client one time. Uh, I was I needed a settlement agreement signature, and I could not find him. I finally found him in the same prison that like Scott Peterson was jailed up in Modesto, which is just like a weird fact. Anyway, uh I get in there and uh they have him handcuffed to the desk. Told him about the case, try to get a settlement agreement signature. He told me that he didn't want to sign because he wanted to sue them for murder. And I said, Yeah, okay, well, what do you mean? He said they murdered me.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

I think it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

So that was the first case that I did with the class rep as a ghost.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Because obviously it wasn't he was murdered. So it must have been a ghost sitting next to me. Oh, and that day ended with him not signing. Oh my goodness. And uh me flying back from like San Jose nervous that here we go. Like when this guy gets out, he's coming after me.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

It's so interesting. I always feel like like employment clients are either so happy or so mad. Yeah, yeah. And there's never like, well, this is fine, thank you. It's always like, thank you so much. You're the best. I can't believe you did this, or you're awful.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

This was horrible.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

It's so true. I did my best. You know, we could have a podcast about all the good, yeah, like the good ones, because there's been great. Like, if you, you know, some of like some of the reviews that I have, like honestly makes me emotional. You know, they're like, oh, Nick is a somebody called me a maestro.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Right? What?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

It was really, really nice. There's some really great people, but unfortunately in life, you probably usually just remember the the crazy ones, the death threats, the you know, but um there are some great people.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

It's actually there's a there's a study done. I just read about this yesterday where sometimes they would take kids and if they wanted them to memorize this is probably unethical and it's not allowed anymore. If they wanted them to memorize something, they would like ask them a question, tell them the answer, and then throw them in like a cold plunge. Not like a major, but like when your cortisol levels go up, your memory is just This is like the I like that that's like the old school parenting.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

I grew up on a farm. Like I feel like we weren't like thrown into the cold plunge, but that's how we learned to swim, was they throw us into the lake with the light preserver on. And uh yeah, we're gonna get in trouble nowadays if you're doing that, I think.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:03

If if you do face those clients who are very aggressive or hostile, you could just tell they're mentally unstable. Do you ever have any special resources of places to send them to to get help?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

I you know, yeah, that I'm sure over the years we might have said, hey, you gotta talk to, you know, we go go to the get a psychiatrist things, but honestly, that falls on the lawyers at our firm. Yeah, doesn't it? Like we can't force them to go get help. They're calling us, so we're on the phone. And I think for me, that's why I built like the intake team at our firm. I've built it with some of the smartest people and who are like, oh, you you have lawyers working intake at your firm? Like, that's not like why wouldn't you just have a law clerk doing it? It's like, no, lawyers that have gone to law school and had to take the California bar exam, and you know, it's a lot of work to get there, right? Um I think you need to have the right people, the right social skills, because that that's a huge part of the job. I mean, you could tell you could tell these people, hey, you know, go to go to a psychiatrist or here's a mental health hot hotline. But the reality is is they want all of the help, right? They've come to us not only for the employment stuff, they've come to us to be the counselor, to they like to treat us as a bank, right? Where's my money? But I think that role is something that that's why lawyers are called counselors. Yeah. You know, I take that very seriously. And so, no, that kind of kind of stays within the firm, you know, and you hire the right people to help with that. One of my favorites is uh there there was a client, he was just a wonderful client. And, you know, over the case of it was probably three years, he he left me many, many voicemails. And but what in one voicemail, he told me that first of all, he thanked me like eight times in a minute, which was really nice. You don't get that a lot, right? And at the end of the message, he told me that I made him feel like a bottle of ketchup next to a plate of shrimp. And so I've told this story over the years, but it's like Wait, but who eats shrimp with ketchup? This is everyone's response. Who eats shrimp species? No, I think in the same voicemail, he also was telling me um if I was thirsty, he'd get me apple juice, because that's what uh uh Clint Eastwood used to Clen Eastwood used to drink apple juice, and if I didn't like apple juice, apple juice does not sound appetizing when you're thirsty and he'd give me something else. But and then everyone always asked me, was I the shrimp or the ketchup? But I was the shrimp because he said, Yeah, I was the shrimp.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

So he was the ketchup.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

He was dipping me in the ketchup, right? I'm eating that's yeah, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:43

It's gotta be breaded.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

It's gotta be breaded.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

Okay, that kind of actually makes more sense. Breaded, fried, deep fried, dipped in ketchup. Okay, that makes that instead of the cocktail sauce.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Yeah. Anyway, after this case goes on, it's a long case. I can't get a hold of him. This guy, the shrimp guy, bottle of ketchup guy. Well, and I knew that he was having problems. He got his foot amputated for diabetes because he was calling me in the uh, you know, like the nursing home wherever he was at. And so anyway, he dies before the case pays out. And we could never find next to kin. And it was like, man, out of all the people I want to get the money, it's this guy, right?

SPEAKER_03 31:19

And you left his voicemail.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Oh my gosh. If if I I wish I could have like the conversations that we had recorded, because they were all like like this guy's hilarious.

SPEAKER_04 31:28

And it's so funny because he's so happy and positive and grateful. And you just said he got his foot chopped off because of diabetes. And how many people who had their legs taken off and it were living in a nursing home and had no family would be this positive about that. I know what a freaking amazing human being.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

And and as we were going through that, I remember some other lawyers being like, Hey, watch out for this guy. He's like, this is a guy is gonna show up. Like, sounds like he's in love with you or something. And and and he would, he told me he'd love me on the phone, right? Like, what do you say then?

SPEAKER_04 32:05

I'm just so happy to have someone who cares about him and who listen to him.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

It's you know, some people are just lonely and maybe he didn't have a lot like in his life. So like the lawyer becomes that in a little, you know, in a little way. And so anyway.

SPEAKER_04 32:18

And I think thinking it through a challenge class action and poga lawyers have that probably individual employment lawyers don't have as much, is the amount of time it takes between the time a case resolves and the money's paid out.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

So true.

SPEAKER_04 32:32

Because, you know, my clients get fussy even if it's, you know, 30 days and there's a two-day delay, and it's like, oh well, we settled this a month ago. Where's my payment? And you have to wait over a year usually for class action and poga cases to pay out.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

At least, and sometimes more. And I've had, you know, we did a case against El Pollo Loco years ago that took six years.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

Holy moly. And just for our listeners listening, class action and poga cases, when they settle, they actually have to be approved by the court before they can be paid out. And that process takes a really long time. And the court has to evaluate all of the class members, all of the violations that are being alleged, and approve that the settlement that was reached is fair and equitable for everyone involved.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

And then even at that point, what you're seeing in our business a lot now is there's going to be other lawyers coming in that represent other employees of the company that didn't get cut in on the deal. So now they're filing intervention motions to get in the case, objection. If the judge overrules or, you know, basically says no, the objection's no good, you still are likely to see an appeal of that. And so even after you've settled and you're at the approval stage, there's times where it's still another year or two. We just had that happen. So, oh yes, the fun part of, hey, I thought the money's ready, but no.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

And in that motion is when the judge decides, so the named class member, if you're the named class member on the lawsuit, you end up getting more because that incentivizes people to act as the named class representative. But then the judge also has to decide how much everyone else gets, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:07

That's right. Exactly. Well, the judge will decide whether or not the requested award is is within, you know, the um range of what the judge or what the courts usually uh award, which is $5,000 to $15,000. That's usually where you see it. Um the amount that's going to the class isn't really necessarily determined by the judge at that point. What's the plaintiff gonna get? Um, what do the attorneys get? And then at prelim, there's is is this fair to even get to that point? You know, are are the class members going to end up with enough?

SPEAKER_04 34:40

Do you think that sometimes clients or potential clients who want to retain you don't really see you as a person? They see you as like a borg as as an attorney. A borg. And that's why that's why they kind of treat you like you need to do this for me. And if you don't, I'm coming after you.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Yeah, you know, it's like, oh, they probably think that just sitting, you know, on a golf course all day or driving around really fancy, expensive cars, right? One thing that I was taught very early on, and I'll say his name because he's such a great guy. His name's Mark Osman. He was an employment lawyer, he was, you know, uh city prosecutor for years, one of the smartest lawyers that I know. And he always told me, like, you can do anything in this business, but once you ruin your reputation, you're done. And so for me, I try to always remember that, you know, and and that ties into like, oh, well, what do these people think about me? Well, you know what? I'm gonna answer my phone on a Saturday, if as long as I'm not with my kid or my family. I'm gonna give them the time, I'm gonna ask about their life because we really are counselors. It's yeah, we're less like I I'm I'm not, I don't want to pretend to be a litigator. I've never our firm has, right? But me personally, I have never went taken a case to trial. I don't I don't do all the motion work. We have such smart attorneys at our firm, they all handle that. My role has always been counseling, you know, like I know the names of our, not all of them, but like I'll know the names of the kids or like, okay, this lady's going through brain cancer, right? And like, so I think some of them initially start out that way. This is just some lawyers, like got this, you know, uh easy life and makes all the money and is wears fancy suits. But um, I think some of them, as long as you give you can't give all the clients the time when you're when you're high volume, right? But the ones that I'm able to, I think they uh would I I I I'd like to think that I've helped to change that narrative of what lawyers are and what they look like. You know? Um at the end of the day, I want as a contingency fee lawyer, I want to get them as much money. Obviously, my you know, the money that's coming to our firm is depending on what we settle for them. And it's it's nice to be able to get these people six-figure checks and and life-changing money, isn't it? You know, so but yeah, I I do think uh what did you say, Borg?

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yeah, um, they we definitely have have that like you know, uh vibe sometimes, don't we? That they just think that we're just sitting on tons of cash and have this easy life when you know the work it took to get figure out and to maintain it.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

So that's people don't talk about enough, is that once you get there, you have to continue to hustle. Because not everything that's wrong is illegal, right? Sometimes you do have just like a really mean boss, yeah, or just like a really bad personality conflict, but it's not discrimination.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

They just where the wage and hour lawyer comes in.

SPEAKER_04 37:35

That's when they come in. I'm like, okay, are you an hourly employee?

SPEAKER_01 37:40

No claims here, but there's certainly going to be claims in the in the other uh places, usually in California. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:46

I do love what we do though.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Like I do too.

SPEAKER_04 37:48

So, what is your favorite part about what we do for a living?

SPEAKER_01 37:52

I I'm sure I must have told you this uh the times we've hung out. Our whole like 75% of the firm are people that I went to law school with that are on my basketball team. Like these are these are my good friends. So that that's it for me. Like it we, you know, like having lunch at the office with with the lawyers and the staff, like it's awesome. I feel like I'm living like that's the dream part is being able to do this with um not only my friends, but also the guy who started our firm, Norren Blumenthal, and his his son's involved, Scott. Like we we have, I would say we have the best group of people and the best setup. Like we are we really like a family. So to me, that's that's so important. That has been the funnest thing. I love going to work.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

As employment lawyers, we know how important that is, isn't it? Having a place to go to work where you're happy and you feel accepted and part of a community.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

It's it's really awesome. And we're as employment lawyers, the craziest part is like you go into our office, we don't have the right posters sometimes. Like, wait a second, guys, we're employment lawyers. We gotta have the wage posters up, you know. But we um that that would be it, is I get to work with the best group of people. I really do.

SPEAKER_04 39:02

Hopefully, this helped you understand your rights at work a little bit better. And if you have any more questions, don't hesitate to reach out to the show in the comments via direct message or shoot us an email at podcast at AntonianMolanda.com. This is punching the clock for the AM Sidebar Podcast. Follow and subscribe for more about your rights as an employee.