-Philing
We love to think and rap about our love of cinema. We are ideaphiles, storyphiles, and cinephiles. Our aim is to share those loves, and understand their value and importance in our lives, with each other, and everyone who listens.
-Philing
005 Nashville
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In this episode we discuss director Robert Altman’s Nashville.
Welcome to Filing, where we love to think and rap about our love of cinema. I'm Sean Patrick, and I will be joined by Brandon Mitchell. We are ideophiles, storyphiles, and cinophiles. Our aim is to share those loves and understand their value and importance in our lives with each other and everyone who listens. Our discussion might be a broad and detailed spoiler, so if you haven't seen this episode's movie, stop listening to us right now, go watch it, and then return to filing to hear our thoughts and feelings. Please note there is some static and unintended noise in this episode. It is quiet and occasional. I apologize if it interferes with our brilliant critique. We describe parts of this movie as either awesome, amazing, or cool a total of 50 times in this episode. So if you make this episode a themed reaction game, every time we say the words awesome, amazing, or cool, do five push-ups and get shredded. This is the fourth episode of the After the Life inspiration series, which is a collection of movie reviews intended to inspire the production of an original movie titled The After the Life. The After the Life is currently being produced and will screen at an event called the Fest 2026 on July 18th. Go to thefest2026.com for details about the event. In this episode, we're discussing the movie Nashville. Nashville is an American film directed by Robert Altman. Robert Altman is arguably the most prolific film director of his time. Between 1968 and 2006, a span of 38 years, he directed 34 feature-length films. Nashville was his tenth film during this period of time. He was 49 years old when he directed it. Nashville was produced during the second half of Altman's life, but during the beginning of his feature-length film Directorial Career. The crossover of those time periods intersects with a crossover of events in American culture and politics. Those events certainly influenced the politically charged theme in the 1976 Best Picture nominee, Nashville. Joan Tewkesbury, the screenwriter of Nashville, began writing the screenplay in the fall of 1973 after proposing the idea to Robert Altman. That proposal was approximately six months after the United States ended direct military involvement in the Vietnam War, and two years after the Washington Post released the Pentagon Papers, which revealed that American presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, and particularly Lyndon Johnson had misled the American public about the war in Vietnam. This reveal demonstrated a lack of leadership. I cannot help but think that lack of leadership influenced the decision, at least at a subconscious level, to tell the story of Nashville with no discernible lead character against the backdrop of a presidential campaign that never shows the candidate. It is perhaps coincidental, or maybe influential, that President Richard Nixon resigned the presidency during the summer of 1974 while Nashville's principal photography took place. Either way, Nixon's resignation and Gerald Ford's ascendance to the presidency exacerbated what I can only imagine was an exhausting and seemingly leaderless cultural atmosphere still healing from the violent trauma of war. Nixon's demise was the loss of yet another leader. Ford's transition from the vice presidency to the presidency was a new focus toward a man in a supporting role. The theme of Nashville may be described as the detachment from and the disenchantment in American culture and politics during the 1970s. There appears to be no central conflict. However, there may be a central mood that is perhaps best described as amusing malaise, humor, mixed with a general feeling of discomfort, uneasiness, and illness of no discernible cause. This is exemplified by the wide and varied disagreements, attitudes, actions, and comedy between members of an ensemble caste. Perhaps the value of Nashville is a reminder that the collection of individual petty quarrels, the lies, the cheating, and the lack of awareness and connection to reality that may result can have profoundly dangerous cultural consequences. The worst of these consequences is the murder of the very best within us and the very best among us. That is important to remember, but it doesn't seem enough. That lack of enough is perhaps best exemplified in the closing anthem of the movie, when a struggling singer takes the stage minutes after the shooting of a beloved singer on that same stage. She sings a chorus. Perhaps the meaning of that chorus is more clear if reworded to something like, I'm not worried about your claim that I have no freedom. And perhaps that meaning is directly pointed at the voice of political discourse heard throughout the movie. Perhaps it isn't worrisome because it isn't true. Our essence as human beings is free. Free to think, free to express ourselves, free to feel, and free to direct our lives. But if there are forces dedicated to hindering or halting freedom, then that should worry. And it is difficult to believe that it does not worry. No amount of singing will change that. But perhaps it can provide some temporary relief and also remind us that we're in this country, on this planet, circulating in this galaxy together. Merely existing amongst others, though, is also not enough. But it is a reminder of the alternative, of not existing. That understanding is intensified when one is surrounded by a crowd of existing living human beings. Nashville appears to imagine that simply being aware that one is alive and among the living is enough to feel extraordinarily grateful and hopeful during times of deep disenchantment and after the brutal assault on that which one loves. Perhaps it's easier to explain Nashville as a story about the public's disinterest and detachment from politics and the destructive effects that has on what we love. But perhaps it is all background, sound and fury, amongst what is for the most part, a pretty good time. So let's file it.
SPEAKER_10Don't call it a podcast. This is broader than five. We're rapping about the gods in the movies we love talking about the all minute of cinema things, the filing cast is falling in between. Yoph.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's it's such it's so crazy how things from this movie just clearly align to still today. On the political side, but just in the sphere of Nashville, there's there's a similarity. And they're gone there and they're trying to make make it happen.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, they're helped by Jeff Goldblum on his motorcycle to get from point A to point B. He seems to that seems to be his primary purpose is escorting people, and other than obviously representing somebody who's enjoying himself.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, okay. So you just I want to get back to Jeff Goldblum in a second. I did want to almost put a warning out here because I just felt a the almost inevitable fact that this episode and us, this conversation is probably just gonna go all over the place. You know, because we're yeah, we're at Jeff Goldblum right now, and it just there's just details that who knows, you might notice. Because I like in the very end, did you notice Jeff Goldblum? He makes it to that final area where the last concert piece happens, and he's got an enormous snake pendant on his vest. And I just kind of was like, I mean, I haven't had time to even think about that yet, but like, did you notice that? What do you think that means?
SPEAKER_05I did not notice that.
SPEAKER_01It's like his entire vest is this huge snake, like a metal snake. Oh, a metal snake. Yeah, it's like a pendant, like a pin, but it takes up his whole vest. And I was like, wow, that's interesting. I mean, it it's so big it definitely is meant to be noticed, you know.
SPEAKER_05But um I'm not sure what that would mean.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know what that would mean because yeah, he when you when you mentioned what he is, he like it I don't know if it's uh an evil thing or something like that, you know. He doesn't seem to be evil in any way. He is like a illusionist for sure, so that's something, but it doesn't seem to be for any nefarious nature, he just does it to like almost impress himself when he does all his tricks. But then another detail about him, this is where it's just all gonna bounce around, probably. But uh in the opening freeway car crash, he's the only one to escape it, really. Everyone else is just stuck there and they can't figure out what to do. And almost businesses set up, you know, it's like so hot out, so it's immediately ice cream vendors and stuff are there, and beer vendors are there, and people are starting to make money off this crash, and he just turns around and goes the other way, and he gets out of there, you know, where everybody else is like, How do we figure out what to do with this crash? And so they're all just stuck there the rest of the day or however long, until the film decides to cut to the next scene, and then they're all wherever they need to be. Yeah. So I I just thought I took notice of that. That that was interesting about his character too, where he he's able to escape all this stuff with pretty pretty much ease whenever he wants to.
SPEAKER_05The snake might be a symbol for unity. The movie is about American culture. For sure. The movie opens with a song sang by Haven Hamilton in a studio called 200 Years. And the movie was released in 1975, which is one year shy of the 200th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. So there's definitely a callback to that history, and during the Revolutionary War with Great Britain, there was a famous advertisement to join the American forces and that advertisement was picturing a snake cut up in thirteen different sections. And underneath the cut up snake it said join or die. So perhaps if he's wearing a fully intact snake, he's symbolically communicating a message to join together, which they ultimately do at the end of that scene after Barbara Jean is shot because they start singing in unison. So maybe that's what it means.
SPEAKER_01I like it. Go file that. Alright, so the beginning, like we should just start there, opening even before that song opens with almost like a infomercial about an album, a compilation album with 24 of your favorite artists, and it lists everybody who's the real actor in the movie. Yeah. While every three names or so going in Nashville with different fonts, Nashville popping up all the time. Yeah. And it's so much like a commercial for the movie that you're already watching.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty funny. It's a really creative way to introduce the cast. It's a very creative title sequence. Yeah. You know, you mentioned that the best way to discuss this movie was to start at the beginning. And maybe you're right. I had the thought that the best way to discuss it is to discuss it in terms of plot, which is a logical series of events. That's typically how I approach the examination of a movie, but I don't think this movie lends itself to that sort of examination. I think it's so character-driven that, and there's so many characters, that I think the best way to analyze the movie is to discuss a particular character. Maybe I'm wrong, but the fact that the fact the fact that because we did Gold Bloom already.
SPEAKER_01Right. You know, and it that sounds right. Um unless at first we want to just talk about Altman a little bit, because that's a huge factor in this movie, and his style and sensibility is on full display in this movie. It's so experimental and magical, I think, how a movie like this could even be made in and especially in the way that it was to have and but I mean it's like his run from definitely smash McCabe Miss Miller and this movie, and you can throw other ones in there because he's doing a lot of the same things, but this style of just micing everything and filming everything is just amazing. Probably up there in my top favorite filmmaking techniques or something like that ever. Um, just watching this movie today, I instantly wanted to go to my top 25 list of all time and see where this fits, because it's probably in there. It's just tough picking from MASH McCabe Miss Miller and this why one would make it in the top 25 over the other because they're all I think straight up masterpieces. But this one I could watch this for days. I think just the way that it it goes. I don't ever want to leave any of these characters. I want to see what they do constantly. And I just think it's amazing how he can shoot all this stuff in and and it sometimes it cuts to in cuts together in ways that don't really make a lot of sense when compared to most other movies. But there are there are amazing things that tell you how to jump from one thing to another. There's one in particular that stands out where I think it's leaving the freeway sequence, which is still pretty early on in the movie, and a big that's almost the thesis statement scene if there is a such a thing, but you're stuck in that car crash on the freeway for a long period of time, and it's just a microcosm of America, and also it's just at a standstill and a pile up, and emotions are heavy, people are on one side making money off of it, and on the other side getting so angry and confused about it, and can't figure any way out of it. But then it eventually the scene ends and it cuts somewhere else, and that van is just rolls by the outside of the house that you're in, it just rolls by the window, you just see it for a split second, and the recording is going on that just can ties the whole movie together like a piece of thread, and that instantly just tells you well, they got out of that somehow, and this is now hours or a day later, who knows, you know, but you're just immediately somewhere else. It's just amazing how he can think of those things, and it just it's one of the reasons the movie works.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think that's the value of having an element that threat, especially an element that is in motion and has expression threading its way through the whole movie.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like he did the same thing in MASH. Okay. With with um, I think the character Radar, who is always on the making announcements every day and at the camp. And it's just a way to just sort of move a scene, move you into a new scene, and it gives you a break, and it could give you a laugh or something new to think about. And um yeah, it's just and there's another thing that popped out, just popped into my head of you know, he'll throw he'll somehow throw out an idea. For example, there's an older woman that's in one of the clubs at one point, and she starts talking about religion, and it just all of a sudden brings that idea up, and then several scenes later, we get the cutting back and forth between all these different churches. I think it's two churches.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I think it's more. Um it's a huge Catholic church, there's a black church, there's the little hospital. I feel like it's in the hospital. There's like a little church pew area in the hospital because Barbara Jean is there singing a song for a small congregation of people. Yep. And it might have started. I couldn't tell if there was a like a Baptist or some other or a Methodist church or something first before the Big Catholic. But there's definitely a number of churches.
SPEAKER_05I think the Big Catholic one started first, and then it cuts to the smaller church with less people in the pews, and that's the one where Barbara Jean is singing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I feel like there might be one before the big Catholic one. Um but anyway. So, but it's just that woman in the club starts having a speech about religion, it gets your brain thinking about that stuff, and then there it isn't a direct cut to that, you know, all those churches. I think it's probably something with that guy Tom. Um, it might have been that scene where Mary from the band is just saying how much she loves him over and over and he's passed out. And then it goes into the church montage. And but it's it's just a cool way of how he is able to bring up ideas ahead of when he's really gonna do the big sequence talking about that idea. You know, anyway.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you're right. It's it is Mary sitting or laying in bed with Tom. He's passed out, and she's just repeating, I love you, I love you, I love you, over and over again. That intercut, that scene that intercuts the different churches, shows different parts of the ensemble cast in the congregation at each church. The movie does that a couple of times. It does that with some performance venues as well, where it'll be intercutting between two different performances at a bar or a small club somewhere, and so some of the cast will be at one of the bars watching the show, and then at another bar they'll be watching a performance with a with an assortment of other cast members, and so and then it intercuts between them. I think it does that a couple of times. It does that obviously with the opening scene with the studio, and then it does it again with the church. So that's a recurring recurring way to I guess tell the story of all of these characters in a timely enough fashion. And so um interesting scene before the scene with Mary laying on top of Tom, who's asleep, telling him over and over again that she loves him, is the scene with Mary's boyfriend and Ben and you know, partner music with the driver and yeah, Norman.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's my man.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, Norman's great.
SPEAKER_01I love that guy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we could talk, we should talk about Norman. But in that scene, Bill is expressing to Norman that he thinks Mary is cheating on him, and Norman's like, no, no, no, you are way off. You are way off. And then it cuts to the scene of her laying on top of Tom, telling him that he loves her or loves him. And so let's talk about Norman. Norman is a really fun character. There's like my favorite scene with him is the scene. There's two scenes, but the first one is the very first scene he is in. He's at the airport, he's he's a driver, and so he's he's there to either pick somebody up or drop somebody off. And there's a flurry of activity at the airport. Part of that is Jeff Goldblum on his motorcycle driving by, or it's parking and then getting up and then walking past him, and then the political van is driving through the airport, you know, pronouncing all of its political slogans, and he kind of his gaze kind of follows the van, and he just has this confused look on his face. And it's hilarious to me because he comes across as probably one of the most genuine characters, if not the most genuine character in the movie. He's definitely one of the nicest. I think there's other genuine characters, but he's the normal guy.
SPEAKER_01That's why he's named Norman. He's like not really part of the world, but he's in it for some reason. He's just kind of checking it all out, trying to figure it out.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. He's hanging out with like that trio because he's driving that trio around. Right. Bill Bill Mary and Tom, who are a love triangle, and he's almost not only a driver, but also a therapist, because Bill is always expressing his insecurities. And Tom kind of just kind of dismisses him. And there's this one scene where he's in the hotel room with Tom, where Tom gets up to get on the phone and it stays on Norman, you know, this very side character, and he just picks up a guitar, and I think he starts playing a Beatles song.
SPEAKER_01No, well, he's given the guitar by Tom, and Tom says, Write yourself a hit. Right. And then he's yeah, it's similar to a Beatles song. It's hard to tell because it's not it's it's like a normal person picking up a guitar and who who maybe knows some chords because he's basically just doing a bar, but he he's playing an E chord, I think, and then bar chords of whatever else. So it's hard to say if he really knows what he's doing at all, but he's playing. But he has this amazing look on his face of where it almost seems like he's like, Oh, I'm around this Tom guy, he's gonna hear me and be like, holy shit. Like when he's just playing real amateur style stuff, it's just so it his performance is so good, yeah. And a character I don't remember at all from previous viewings, like, definitely not a guy that ever stood out to me. So he was a complete new person I was checking out this time around. Him and the BBC reporter were my two revelations this time. Just being like, oh, those guys are just crushing roles.
SPEAKER_05Let's talk about the BBC reporter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, crazy.
SPEAKER_05My favorite scenes with her were when she was walking through the junkyard and then the lot full of school buses, and she's reporting on the scene and using all of this poetic, flowery, and dark language to describe the scene. She describes the the rusting cars as dried blood. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's it's quite good. I think what she's doing there as a writer is not shitty. No, it's not, you know, but she's shown through most of the movie as being pretty unaware of what's really going on. You know, there's uh especially just to jump to the end, like her last line, I think, is can somebody tell me what anybody see what happened?
SPEAKER_05What happened?
SPEAKER_01She's the reporter and she has this pompous attitude, like almost like she knows everything and belongs everywhere. And um, but yeah, when she's by herself and checking things out, it's actually pretty good what she's noticing. You know, it's kind of well written.
SPEAKER_05And the the school bus one, it's cool watching her just it's definitely well written through it and intelligent, but it it's there's something off about it. There's a degree of importance that she seems to be bringing to it that is not appropriate. And because she's it's almost as if she's personifying these cars that are just piled up in a junkyard, and she's doing the same thing with the school buses, and it's almost as if she's practicing for more important stories to tell or to be able to do that. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she's definitely missing the the real story. Yeah, you know, she's gets at her best when she's not around anybody and not reporting on anything really of much value.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because when she's around people, she's getting distracted, or when something really nice and wonderful is presented to her, like when Buddy is actually singing a song to her that's sweet and lovely, she quickly loses interest when she sees the actor Elliot Gould has arrived at the party. Yeah, and then she quickly goes up to him, gets right in his face, very uncourteously, and then gets escorted at the party. Yeah. And so she has like this the this she has she represents a certain degree of detachment and lack of awareness that I think threads through the whole movie with to some degree with all the characters, but most explicitly with her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean uh like the irony with her is so clear. It's it just beats you over the head with it. But she's not she's unaware of it, you know. That's that's what's cool about her character, but yeah, she's so so good. Yeah, and Elliot Gould. This is where this is kind of one of the big things with this type of movie and Robert Altman, because he does it again in the player, of just having putting real people playing themselves up in there.
SPEAKER_05The yeah, the writer of Nashville plays herself in the player.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So it's just crazy. Because I was like, when the when the driver stepped out, I think it might have still been Norman who drove Ellie Gould there. Um and he's I you know it's like sometimes you can't totally hear what people say just because of the nature of how they do it. But I thought he said Mr. Gould, and I was like, oh, it that would be a funny mistake in a movie where if they miss that, because that's happened in movies before, where instead of calling the actor by the character name, somebody will call him by the actor name, and it just gets totally missed in and the movie, and that's a flaw in the movie or whatever. And so immediately I kind of thought he I thought he said Mr. Gould and uh thought it was a mistake, but then I would then quickly it's like nope, he's just playing himself, showing up in the movie. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_05What do you what do you think the purpose is of bringing in a known actor into a movie to play him or herself?
SPEAKER_01Well, there's a little blurring of the lines of reality, you know, because then it it it chang it makes the movie seem somewhat more real because a real person is now in this uh space. So definitely does something like that, but it also he can it can provide a little bit of of humor because I think the last line of his scene, I don't know if I'll remember what it was, but there it's something about like the price of getting famous, you know, where somebody says to him, Well, I guess that's the price of being super famous, and he goes, It certainly is, or something like that. Yeah. So it could just be like a little inside joke about that. And he's obviously friends with Altman, and it could have just also just been like a funny idea. Like, hey, you got a free day? You want to just come by the set, and we'll just throw you in there somehow. And it's like, what if you just played yourself showing up into Nashville? Could have been something like that.
SPEAKER_05Do you think it helps suspend disbelief?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's hard to say. I I don't watch this movie, and because he shows up, I now think it's real, but who knows? Maybe in 1975, this this type of thing probably was way less common. It's not used that often, but it is at some points, you know. Like Nicolas Cage, I think, did a movie where he played himself and stuff like that. So it's a thing that does happen. I don't know if it happened that much back then. He could have been one of the guys that sort of invented that type of idea.
SPEAKER_05What do you think of the character Mr. Green?
SPEAKER_01Which one's Mr. Green?
SPEAKER_05Mr. Green is the uncle of Shelly Duval's character, Martha, aka L.A. Joan.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Whose wife Esther is in the hospital.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I really like that section. It's you know, I think it's pretty clear that Shelly Duval is just this young person not recognizing when you that you can take a few seconds of your time to visit your family when they're in the hospital, but she's always putting it off, going, I can talk to them anytime. And I think that's um common in young people. And it's tragic a little bit. Like it definitely has a tragic feeling to it to me. Yeah. Just how pushed to the side that dude is. He's a real person trying to live a real life. He's not really involved in any of the drama that's happening with the rest of the characters. He's got his own thing that he's dealing with, and it's super hard what he goes through. And he has nobody really there to deal with him. The only guy that kind of took a liking to him was the vet played by Scott Glenn, um, who you're not really sure about most of the time. He seems really kind of messed up, he's very quiet, but he finally hangs out with Mr. Green after they're sitting in church together. And he the the one time that that vet guy opens up in a friendly way is to that guy, but it's after his wife, he just found out that his wife passed. And Scott Glenn's telling him all the stuff that he's thinking fondly of, and then walks away going, Hope your wife's doing alright, or something like that.
SPEAKER_05That was a very interesting scene because there were two characters having very different intense emotional experiences, and neither one of them were receptive or even seemingly aware of the other's emotional experience.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I can relate to Mr. Green. It's not like if you just got that news that you would care about what anybody's saying, especially if they're saying, hey, this is awesome type stuff. Right. You know. So I don't know. He just makes me really sad. His whole scene. Then he kind of I guess where he ends up, he kind of goes insane, sort of. Is that what you get from that?
SPEAKER_05I don't think I don't think he I don't get the impression that he goes insane. I think he just finally gets upset and angry.
SPEAKER_01But it seems like he doesn't he isn't accepting the the fact. It seems like he leaves the funeral still searching for her or something like that.
SPEAKER_05Well, he leaves the funeral searching for Martha.
SPEAKER_01Oh, for Jelly Duvall? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_05It's it's kind of unclear, and that's where the sound design of the dialogue can be prog problematic because you can hear a lot different things being said, you know, by different people. And so in I think Altman might be very sensitive to making sure the dialogue's volume is accurate to the distance the subject is that is speaking from the screen or from the audience. And so I found that that was I had to rewind because I couldn't tell what he was saying. And so I rewound that scene and then confirmed that he's oh, he's leaving because he's going to look for Martha, and he's like, he's pissed off that it's like, you know, she ditches me the whole all the time when I'm trying to get him, get her to see my wife. Now she's dead and she can't even pay her respects. So I think I think he ends up going to the final concert in the move and he finds her and he's upset with her. Um, but I don't remember. Um the bizarre, the most bizarre thing of the that funeral scene, um, or the burial scene of Mr. Green's wife is that Kenny is there.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And Kenny is trying to tell Mr. Green to stay. Be like, they're not finished yet, you gotta stay. Which, if you consider the full context of the movie, that's very bizarre. Mm-hmm. The fact that he's there and doing what he's doing, and probably the only thing I can think of is the purpose of that is to mislead because Kenny ultimately shoots Barbara Jean and have Haven Hamilton uh at the end of the movie. Out of nowhere. Um, seemingly out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, so what about that guy? Kenny? What do you get? Yeah, maybe he he's kind of the most confusing, but that could be by design as well. Oh, for sure. Because, you know, it's like if somebody is gonna do some weird kind of random assassination, there's just something that doesn't inherently make sense about that, you know? So maybe that's why his character is sort of the most confusing. Because it yeah, it's like what is his he definitely came planned to do that.
SPEAKER_05Well, because it's uncle it's not his. He's got the gun, right? But it's unclear like what his plans really are. And so when you're introduced to the character, he's in that highway pileup at the beginning of the movie with all of the other characters, and his car is stalled, and he decides to just leave the scene. So he gets out of his car, opens up the back seat door, grabs his guitar case, and then on the seat are a bunch of posters of Hal Phillip Walker, who is the presidential candidate of the campaign band that is driving all around the town and throughout the movie playing that campaign recording. And so it's easy to kind of dismiss that because you've already seen so much information about that campaign, but considering what that character did at the end of the movie, it kind of leads me to believe oh, he's coming to Nashville to come to this. Event to perhaps assassinate this candidate.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05And but it's weird because it's like, hey, while I'm there, I might as well go to all these shows and check out the scene. And there's another scene that where it's the scene at the performing performance venue, like the bar, where Bill and Mary are sitting at this red and this table with the red and white checkered tablecloths. And Bill is talking to Mary about her having her sh she should have worn a blue dress because he's wearing blue. Right. And she's like, I want to dress like a twin. And then Kenny comes into the scene and some woman just tells him real quick to sit down in this chair. But at that point, you already know that they're a trio. And it wasn't clear to me at that point in the movie that Tom was the third member of their trio. Maybe that was maybe that was communicated and I missed it. But I don't know if that's I don't know, either way. Because it's very difficult to keep track of all the characters and who everyone is and what everyone's relationship is. And so when the Kenny guy sits in this chair, it's almost kind of another mislead to indicate, oh, this is the third person in this trio. And I don't know if that's intentional or what, because they clearly, they clearly tell, like there's a person who's working the bar, clearly tells him to sit down in his chair, and he turns to them and quietly is like, is it okay if I sit here? So there's enough there to indicate that he's not a part of the trio, but it's just bizarre because there's so much going on, it's very difficult to ascertain without rewinding and double-checking it. And so, but I already knew I've already seen this movie, so I already knew he wasn't um a part of that. I knew he was the shooter at the end of the movie.
SPEAKER_01Um I actually still wasn't sure about the shooter for a little while because the Scott Glenn dude was so kind of dark in the beginning. Yeah. I almost started thinking, is it this dude? Like which kind of would make sense at first. He came back from Vietnam, PTSD, and stuff like that. But there's a s there's a scene where um Barbara Jean comes out of the hospital and she tries to perform and she sort of has a meltdown. Yeah. And Scott Glenn's just sitting there watching her, and the what's the other guy's name? The shooter guy? Kenny. Kenny. He comes and sits right beside him, but behind a trash can, like not in a seat. And it has a really red top to the trash can, and he's kind of leaning on it. I thought that was a cool use of seating and color to foreshadow him, you know, to put him in front of this trash can, but also it's super red. And by that point, I clicked over to oh yeah, it's this dude for sure. But um, I think I don't know, but they're see seated side by side, so maybe they're both dealing with shit and they're going to see music like everyone else to try to get an answer or try to get some help or see if there's anything worthwhile. But there's a lot of uh mixed messaging, you know, because you can see all the way down to the the slum level of performance when they hire Sue Lean to do like a strip tease at a fundraiser event. Right. Where that's their that's their idea of how we're gonna bring money in to do good shit. You know? Right.
SPEAKER_00It's like destroy this woman or everything about her, you know. She's a sad character too.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so the political campaigners working with Delbert Reese. It's kind of unclear who Delbert Reese really is. What what is he what does he do? He's some sort of businessman in the Nashville scene. Right. And he's married to Lene Reese, who is the white gospel singer. And so he's involved in the scene in some manner. It's not really clear, and this political campaigner for how Philip Walker is working with him to organize an event to recruit all of these musicians to come to this event. And yeah, the the more you more I think about the movie, the more confused I get. Because it's so busy, and I'm bothered by that.
SPEAKER_01And that's what I wanted to ask you. Like, if I I want to get into that stuff, like how do you feel about because you were talking about the sound design in a I don't know, negative but kind of a conflicted way.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think if there's any kind of central conflict to the movie, it might center around the disorganization of the information being presented or the discombobulation, intentional discombobulation of the information that's presented. And and I tend to believe it's purposeful, but I ultimately don't know. I haven't read the screenplay, so I don't know how much the final product that is the movie represents the screenplay. And so I tend to think that there was a lot of creative changes made during the production process, but I don't know. Um it would be an interesting experiment to read the screenplay while the movie's playing, to see what changes were made, because it seems like such a freewheeling movie. And you know, the fact that there doesn't seem to be any central conflict, and the fact that there doesn't seem that there isn't a lead character makes it challenging to grasp what is happening, and I truly believe that that is the point. There's an intentional detachment created from the political background political discourse from the activities of all of the characters, and it culminates into this very destructive end. And I mean I can speak to the sound design and the editing and the production techniques used to create this discombobulating experience, or I could just talk about the end of the movie and talk about the sequence of shots that occurred. You know, Kenny gets to this concert and he's looking at the stage, and Barbara Jean, who's I think the best singer in the movie, is singing a song. I don't remember what type of song it was. Probably, I think it was a nostalgic sort of song. You know, almost all of the songs have like a quality of longing or sadness to them, which is probably the whole point of country blues. And so he's looking at Barbara Jean with these political banners behind her, and then so it kind of cuts back and forth to him looking at her, and then to her performing, and then it cuts back to him at some point, and he changes his gaze. It's like almost like he looks up, and then it cuts to the American flag, taking up the full frame. Right. With the wind running through it, so it there's a wave that moves through the flag. Right. And then I think at that point it cuts back to him and he's pulls out the gun and he's shoot he I don't know if it might cut back to him, but at some point it just cuts back to a wide shot, which is where you see her get shot, and then it cuts to a close-up of him and he's holding the gun, and then the soldier played by Sky Clan grabs him. So that was a really interesting sequence of shots to me, and I'm still grappling with the meaning of it all. I think I understand it, but it's it's really kind of a sad movie, you know, in in the manner in which it ends. And so I think it's more of the sadness and the and the disenchantment of the movie that kind of makes if I'm critical of the movie in any way, it's it's probably that and maybe the overuse of naturalistic production techniques. Those things are interesting and they can and they but but they can also be disorienting. But if that's the point of your movie to it is to have an element of disorientation, then it's appropriate. And that's why I can't help but think of the movie within the time period that it was made, in in an effort to try to understand why you would want to make this movie. Because it's a long movie and it just seems like a very difficult movie spiritually to produce. You know, it's like how do you get up in the morning and like do something so sad and melancholy? So I I mean it was a tough week for me watching that movie, thinking about the movie, because you have to go into that darkness in order to try to understand it and that can have an effect on your disposition. So um so if I'm if I'm critical of it, it's less about the certainly not about the performances. I thought the performances were great and certainly not about production techniques, more about the deeper considerations, um, which I'm not sure they were made. You know, there's so many things there's so much I I didn't live during this time. So I had to talk to my parents and I made a point of talking to my parents who graduated high school and entered college and their careers and started a family in the middle of the 1970s. And they led me to believe that it was an amazing time. And everyone was really positive and interesting. Yeah. And it could be just their perspective, it could just be their individual experience, right? Their foc their focus. But I've also heard from other people that it was a dark period of time, it was a difficult period of time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it's post-Watergate, Vietnam, and an upcoming super recession. Yeah. And it's, you know, classic time in, you know, just in in like New York. That's so different than what it is now. I mean, there's a lot of love for that 70s time of New York City, but it's pretty crime-ridden, you know, pretty grimy city compared to what it is today. Yeah. So but yeah, that's I that's interesting. I I definitely don't think the classical take on the 70s in America is that it was all fun in games.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, my parents led me to bel my parents led me to believe that it was m it was generally positive and any of the negative components of the 70s were more background. And that could, like I said, that could be just their experience, or it was just so long ago, 50 years ago, that they don't remember, but they were young, you know, and so there's a there's a tendency when you're young to be optimistic, you know, when you're late teens, early twenties, feeling great, and then there's often the consideration that there's nothing you can't do and things will be okay.
SPEAKER_01And have had they ever seen this movie?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Did they remember it at all?
SPEAKER_05Not really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. I um I like your criticism and I understand it. It's for me, it's almost my favorite part about it is the sound design and the way it's constructed. Is it's like perfect to me. Because I don't know, there's like a a it's not it it's not it maybe it's a sense of realism or something like that. Um definitely more so than most movies. Uh I don't know if it's realism in terms of it's real life, but it gets at a level of realism that I really love. I think that's what I'm missing from most movies.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think I was I think that's the com the part that I respect about it. Right. Because you you're not gonna make something that's real. It's always gonna be a representation of what's real. And so you want to make it realistic. You know, there's a it has realism has to be embraced. And so I like that.
SPEAKER_01Like if you're sitting at a bar just at a table with your friends, yeah. You can miss things that that group of people says in a conversation, let alone if you're trying to pay attention to people sitting at the bar and what they're talking about and all that stuff. Like, how much stuff are you missing when you're sitting in a bar talking to your friends? And I feel like Altman can drop you into those scenes. And it's in he he frames some scenes and some zooms and pans in ways that you have moments where you can decide what you're paying attention to, and you have to miss stuff. And so it's it's it's uh related to when somebody does like a split screen in a movie. That's an extreme version of that because they're liter literally giving you two things that you can choose to look at, and sound design plays a factor in that they can guide where you're looking based on sound design.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_01But it if you look at the left side of the screen to see what's going on there, you're automatically not gonna see what's happening on the right. So you're choosing what you want to pay attention to. And he's able to set up these sequences where there's times where you can you can do that. He does it in a bunch of movies. I just recently saw California Split for the first time. And there's definitely scenes and bars where it could be a close-up on somebody, and they're not saying anything, they're just sitting by a drink thinking about stuff, but you're hearing a clear conversation, and as the camera widens and pulls back, eventually a character off the side of the screen will just be sitting at a table talking, and that's who you've been listening to this whole time. And just stuff like that is just pure gold to me. In my sensibility of what I like about movies, and I could this movie to me is just endlessly watchable because you can always pick up on different stuff.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It's a busy movie. And there's a lot of characters, but it's sad.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I don't want to steer the focus away from that.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, we can move it anywhere. We got we don't got much time left, so we we could do like rapid fire run through. Because there's a lot of characters we haven't even mentioned yet. It's crazy. There's a sense we might need to do like a double episode.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's a sense of humor to the movie too that can't be dismissed. And I think that we haven't we haven't even really talked about that, but it is a pretty damn funny movie. And but you know, it I it tends a move, I think the impact of a movie tends to be at the end, and that the end of this movie is heavy, and the implications are dark, and I just personally have a difficult time getting past that because you walk out of that theater, and that's what you're kind of left with. But there's a positive component too, which I explained in the summary, but there's something about it. It's it's a difficult movie to contemplate because of all the detail involved and the lack, almost a certain lack of focus, which is purposeful. And so it makes it difficult to have a conversation. I mean, we warned at the beginning of this conversation that we would likely be meandering and discussing it in a haphazard way, and that's exactly what we're doing.
SPEAKER_01And so it just kind of lends itself. And I just watched the movie, so I'm in that zone right now.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you're just trying to figure it out. In the in the movie zone, yeah, you know, yeah. All right, so let's um so I'm gonna go down the list of the cast and summarize what you think of this woman, or and you can do or uh actor, and you can do this in any way you want. You throw like one word to describe them, or you could tell it tell us what your favorite scene is, and then I'll do the same. So uh actor David Arkin, he played Norman. We already discussed him. Um the actress Barbara Baxley played Lady Pearl. Do you remember who Lady Pearl is?
SPEAKER_01I do. She's the one that was talking about religion in the bar in that one scene.
SPEAKER_05Um she's Haven Hamilton's wife, I believe.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So the scene that you're talking about where she talks about religion, she's actually talking about the Kennedys.
SPEAKER_07Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05And she's crying in that scene. And in a previous scene, she was talking to the political campaigner. Um what's his name? I don't remember what his name was. Uh John Triplett, played by Michael Murphy.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05She's talking to John Triplett and Haven and explaining how Haven does not participate in politics or does not support any one side, and that they donate to all the sides, and that she has. And I don't know if it was that scene or a previous scene where she talks about not being excited or really emotionally involved in politics since the Kennedys. Right. I think it was that scene. And then she, you know, fast forward to the bar scene, she's just in tears talking about the Kennedys. And the Kennedys were Catholics, and then she starts talking about. The conflict within the religions and the lack of acceptance, I think, of Catholics. I think she was talking about. And so she definitely explicitly represented a disenchantment with modern politics. For sure. And so that was my thought about her.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like she she put a big chunk of her heart into it at one point. Yeah. And got so let down because both of her key figures got assassinated. Right. And so she's like, I'm just out. Exactly. Interesting. Yeah, I didn't give her actually that much thought just because it it's there's gonna be characters that you just are out on every time you watch this movie. It's like that's why Norman never crossed my mind before. You know? And so that was a a new one to me. Yeah. And um, oh, and the I don't know her. Oh, Barbara Harris? Albuquerque. Is that the girl that was wandering through the movie? Almost look like she just I don't know what the deal was with her.
SPEAKER_05She's trying to walk into town and become a country singer.
SPEAKER_01I know, but she's so beat up, and you know, her clothes are all so worn, and yeah, she's just like still trying to do it. She ends up in a sense, you know, it's like she gets there, she gets to perform on the big stage, probably not in the way that she wanted. I mean, obviously not in the way that she wanted, but who knows what she wants at this point, you know. She she I was I I I I don't remember ever thinking that much about her character before, but this time I was just fascinated by her trying to figure out what her whole deal was. You know, there's so many missing stories from this movie in her backstory, and she has a uh like a grit to her that she's gonna make it whatever that means, even if it's just getting up the next day to fight another day. Um also a good singer. You know, you said about uh Barbara Jean being the best singer. I think Barbara Harris was actually pretty good.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, she was a good singer. She's more dirty blues kinda.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she reminded me of this this uh singer I love, Grace Potter, for some reason.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, her journey's interesting. She I first remember her in the movie during the highway mass pile-up accident. She's in a red truck with her husband, they're arguing. She's talking about sh the fact that she has a gold record and that she wants to be a country singer, and he's arguing with her, and so she just gets out of the car and just starts walking. And she meets up with Kenny in the ne in the next scene season, and she's just because he left the scene too. He left the masked pile up on the highway to walk into town, and they just happen to be walking together at at some point, and in that scene she's just explaining to him exactly what she wants to do, and it's pretty humorous because Kenny asks the question, Well, what are you gonna do if that doesn't work out? And she has a plan. She explains to them, I'm gonna sell trucks. I know a lot about trucks, and she just shows up throughout the movie looking for opportunities.
SPEAKER_01Uh there's a uh before you go on, it's also interesting that he's almost like it's more preposterous that you think you can sell trucks, like then walking in off the street and trying to be a country western star or something. He's like, Oh, but wait, you want to try to sell trucks?
SPEAKER_03You're a girl. There's no way that's gonna work.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that definitely speaks to that character, you know. Yeah, so Albuquerque, funny scene with her, she gets an opportunity to sing at a racetrack. Yeah. And you can't hear a word she's singing because the cards are so loud, whizzing by. That was pretty funny. And it's the musician frog shows up again at that performance. Do you know what were you gonna say?
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I just was gonna say it still has that magic, what I think of as an Altman magic of that's a funny scene, but it still has a sadness in it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, so he's he's I I I just think it's to me pretty beautiful about this whole movie is yeah, it's tragic, but it can also be funny, it can also be hopeful. I think the the longer that song does continue at the end, you can't help but turn it into a more uplifting thing at some point.
SPEAKER_05It's definitely it's definitely that.
SPEAKER_01It just repeats and repeats until it wins you over, I think. I don't think it won me over. Okay, because I called you after seeing it, and I was like still singing that song.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I don't think it won me over. It took some work to win me over, and I'm still not certain. And that's because the movie's kind of uncertain.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And that's okay.
SPEAKER_01But again, to my point, I was like, I mean that's another way that it's more real in the realism world where it's like every month, year of our lives has ups and downs. Yeah. And we can have a sense of humor about it, or we can let the kind of hard nature of life get to us. Right. It's the choice, you know. And the movie I would agree, I think it leans a little more to the negative side, but it still offers a choice at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_05It offers like a temporary moment of relief, I think.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm saying in general, like for us, we can walk away from this movie and still see the you know, the the dark sides and how they're represented and how they do have analogous aspects in real life. But I think just the fact that there are humor scenes and the characters are generally likable and the music for the most not all of them.
SPEAKER_05Not all of the characters are very likable. The Haven Hamilton character is a snake and yeah, but I I think he has still okay qualities about him.
SPEAKER_01I think he he he starts off the movie at a pretty low point in my book. Just his opening song, I don't get a good feeling about that guy from the start. But I don't know, by the end, he has one song.
SPEAKER_05He has one song that is pretty funny. It's the one song Keep It Going.
SPEAKER_07Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05He doesn't even really sing, he just never just kind of like talks. Yeah. And but that's right after a song that is so bizarre. That he opens up that Hopper Land performance with a song and he starts it. You don't know what it's about, but everybody's cheering. Yeah. They love this song. And you're like, what's this song about? Oh, this song is about him breaking off an affair with his mistress because he already has three kids. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he's doing it for them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. And it's it's just such a bizarre experience. Everybody's cheering for this, and that's the introduction to Connie White, you know, so it leads you to kind of believe, oh, it's about Connie White.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I didn't pick that up.
SPEAKER_05I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't really say, but she has this experience where she's off stage during that song, and she's waiting to come on next, and she has this look on her face that is just you it's just seems to me like it's seething because she turns to her right and looks at someone and gives a quick smile, which seems performative, right? And then turns back to look at Haven, and it just the smile wipes off and it goes back to that cold, seething face. So it leads me to believe that he was having an affair with her, and it seemed like it might have been understood and accepted because there's a scene in a bar where he's sitting with her, and that's the scene where his wife is sitting at another table talking about the Kennedys and religion and crying about it, while he's at another table sitting with Connie White, and then this other woman comes in to introduce this other woman, and he's immediately infatuated with this younger other woman, and saying, and just the way he's communicating to her is indicating, like, hey, why don't you just sit down and you know, and that's after he sings that song, so you know you get this sense that he's kind of a snake when it comes to women, and there's just a there's just like this weird feeling of grossness with him, yeah. You know, and it's and it's the dishonesty and the treachery involved in doing that to people, but it seems like it's out in the open, it might be accepted and might be okay. I mean, it definitely is out in the open because he's singing about it. You know, so it's everything, everything is so bizarre. He's not explicitly saying, like, my mistress, I had to say goodbye to her. So I'm doing it for the kids. Yeah, but that's my wife.
SPEAKER_01Tradition, you know, to like sing those songs. They're pretty clear what they're about. They're kind of weird, but you know, it's just that's is part of the tradition. So, and it's I I it's hard to say how much of a song is somebody just spilling their guts on the truth of what really happened, or if they're making up a character in their mind and singing around, or if you had a or if he had a ghost writer who wrote that song in the style of a country blues song.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you know, I did kind of have some respect for Haven in the opening scene because there's a piano player named Frog, who's a hippie, or at least a long-haired kind of mid-70s musician. Yeah, that's a good one.
SPEAKER_01Is that the same dude in the trio?
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_01Isn't that the oh okay? No, I thought that was the same guy.
SPEAKER_05No, Frog is a recurring stand-in musician who you see throughout the movie playing in a variety of different bands. He never speaks the whole movie, you just see him. But in that opening scene, Haven is critical of him. And he says, It's funny because he he learns what the name of this uh piano player is, his name's Frog. He's like, Frog? Okay, but I asked for Pig, who's his normal piano player. He's like, I want Pig here, you know, and so he kind of chastises the piano player, tells him, hey, you can't be making mistakes, and then he does, and he then he makes another mistake, and you can actually hear it, and then he, and that's when Haven quits. And I can kind of respect that about his character. It's like, this guy's not on point. Let's get somebody who's on point so that we can actually record this song. We're just wasting money and everybody's time right now. So I kind of have a I kind of respect that. Or you could just be like, let this guy, I mean, it was like one note he played that was wrong, you know. You could give this who's uh a guy's obviously a stand-in, so it's like maybe cut him a little bit of slack because this isn't his primary responsibility as a musician, you know, to play this music, and the song's not that cool anyway. No, it's not that we must be we must be doing something right the last 200 years. It's like uh there's no indication that Haven Hamilton didn't write these songs. So whenever I hear a musician, I just think that oh, that's an insight into the consciousness of this character.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so definitely in a movie, I think it's it should be looked at that way, at least at some point, at some part, you know.
SPEAKER_05I agree with you. So with Haven Hamilton, there's just this almost disinterest in meaningful things, you know. He has this vague sense that some things are important, but he doesn't care to know why or what that is. You know, he just wants to be a philanderer, and yeah, he later has a conversation with John Triplett, who's promising him support to run for governor if he supports Hal Philip Walker at this campaign concert. So there's this sense of him being involved in music not because he loves being an artist, but for what other things it can bring for him, like you know, women and perhaps money or something. Well, and and now opportunity power. Power. So there's I don't really find too much redeeming about that character.
SPEAKER_01Um, but he it I just think something about the end after the assassination when he gets shot, something about the way he acts there, which I'm not sure if it just shocks some sort of like shocks him into the present tense where he has to exist as like a real person for once. Where I I feel like he acts kind of heroic a little bit in that moment, you know, where he gets shot and he's just yeah instantly trying to get her out of there and stuff like that. So I don't know. Yep, yeah, you're right. My moment where I I kind of shifted my thought process on on him and had a little respect for him.
SPEAKER_05I think that I think you're right. He was a little vulnerable in that scene, and he was trying to be heroic. He did get shot in the arm, he was defiant. He got on the microphone, he's like, we can't let this happen here in Nashville, we can't let them do this to us. Yeah, you know, and then he gets Albuquerque to sing. Like, you gotta keep keep it going.
SPEAKER_01I'm not I'm not saying it's a good guy or a good character. I mean, he's pretty shitty the whole way through. I just was surprised that I ended the movie being like, maybe I was wrong about that guy. You definitely weren't.
SPEAKER_04Definitely weren't.
SPEAKER_01But you know, if that's his um uh what's the guy is that if that's his Ebenezer Scrooge moment, you know, where he comes out of that whole scene and he turns into a good guy from now on, then I'd be up for that.
SPEAKER_03Well, we'll never know. Unless we make Nashville two. Yeah. Right. The Haven Hamilton story.
SPEAKER_05So then there's uh Delbert Reese, played by Ned Beatty.
SPEAKER_03Yep, we gotta go faster through these, unfortunately. Yes, we do. Uh that guy sucks.
SPEAKER_05Nothing redeeming. I don't even know what he does. He aside from like try to cheat on his wife, hate his kids, not defend his wife, and manipulate girls to take off all their clothes to get donations from a polit for a political candidate, and hang out with some sleaze ball uh politician, politician's assistant. That's it. That's all he does. He sucks. He sucks. Yeah. Alright. Connie White, played by Karen Black. We talked a little bit about Connie White being the possible mistress of Haven Hamilton.
SPEAKER_01Um I love her scene. I love her song and her performance during that part. I I think she just looks awesome. Yeah, I thought it was good. She I I think she just nailed that part.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and if you listen to the lyrics of her songs, I think it also speaks to perhaps the sadness of a lack of love.
SPEAKER_01So Yeah, we gotta say too, those all of those performance scenes are so dope because you can tell that they're really playing all those songs. It's just so cool, and I think all of the actors wrote their actual songs. Um so that's cool because the songs are pretty good for non-musicians to write. I'm sure they worked with people or something like that, but but yeah, it's just the way that those scenes are able to be depicted on screen is so awesome just because they literally sat up there and played them and performed them in front of a whole theater of people at times and stuff.
SPEAKER_05Alright, man, that's a bit of that's a bit of an aside. You're wasting a lot of time. Hey, man, gotta fit it in. Just kidding. All right, Barbage. Um, maybe another one of those characters who could arguably be considered a lead character. I thought she was a really important character. Uh she was unwell the whole movie, physically, mentally, I think representative of the broader cultural illness or the illness that encapsulates the movie, um, which is that mental disenchantment with things. Um she's a really good singer, and I thought her relationship with her husband Barnett was interesting. Uh what do you think of Barbara Jean?
SPEAKER_01Uh you know, she's a fighter, you can tell, but just gets has gotten worn down from tons of stuff. There's that scene with her husband where he there it's it really shows the codependent nature of their relationship. He's kind of a jerk to her, but as soon as he uh leaves the room, she is immediately calling out for him. You know? So it's like she's just stuck definitely stuck to that dude. And that dude is he's kind of a piece of shit, but he is at times trying to look out for her best interest, it seems, you know.
SPEAKER_05I think that ultimately he is, his style of dealing with it can be a little abrasive. And it's almost like he kind of talks down to her like a child, but um she's obviously very unwell, and so it seems like he's learned certain tactics to to deal with her in order to get her into a calm state. But it does seem like he has he's supporting her, he has her back the whole movie and is looking out for her best interests, although maybe not behaving in the nicest way. But he is dealing with a lot of jerks and a lot of shitty people.
SPEAKER_01But he is still trying. To push her out there, yeah. You know. So I mean it's like there's still a business element to it, and he still ends up going there over top of, hey, why don't we take a little time off and just put her in the position that he said he would not, right?
SPEAKER_05Because of her failing mental faculties, which ultimately got her shot. We don't know if she died, but she was shot. Probably died, but who knows. Um okay. Tommy Brown, the black country singer who weighed the black waiter who gets drunk several times in the movie, is critical of for being too white. Right. He's not in the movie that much.
SPEAKER_01I think there's one scene, if I don't misremember it, where I think they called out saying there's a celebrity in the room, Tommy Brown and Haven Hamilton, or somebody sitting beside. But not talking to the right guy. Did that happen?
SPEAKER_05I think there was a scene in a bar where Tommy Brown was sitting by Haven Hamilton at the same table, and they may have made a mention of Tommy Brown, and that's when the character Wade started shouting.
SPEAKER_01But I think I think Haven Hamilton was reading a different guy.
SPEAKER_05I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I would say Tommy Brown.
SPEAKER_05Consider considering all that's he didn't know who it who it would be. I mean, I mean, who the fuck knows? I mean, considering all that's going on in these scenes, and people are communicating to a variety of different people, and you're hearing different conversations going on at the same time, um, it's entirely possible that there was some sort of disconnection there. Um, but I think this was actually pretty clear. I think they introduced him, introduced him and they were leaving, and then as they were leaving, Wade, who was drunk, starts with shouting at him. And weirdly, Wade's going after him, Tommy Brown, after Tommy Brown exits. And then, of all people, Kenny kind of stands in his way and says something to the effect of, hey, relax. And then Wade punches Kenny in the face.
SPEAKER_01You know, you think about one of the crazier scenes in the whole movie.
SPEAKER_05I know, you and then yeah, you think about the Kenny character even more from that scene, and you're like, why? Why is he even why is he going to the Mr. Green's wife's funeral? Why is he stepping in between two men who are critical of each or one man who's drunk and critical of another guy at a bar to relax, and ultimately he tries to murder people at the end of the movie? It makes no sense. Makes no sense. You know, I know.
SPEAKER_01I think that's maybe the point.
SPEAKER_05I think you're right.
SPEAKER_01These lunatics don't make any sense.
SPEAKER_05Or we can't make sense of them.
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. All right. Keith Carradine is Tom Frank.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Who's that guy?
SPEAKER_05Oh, that's Tom Frank is the guy that sleeps with everyone in the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who sings the song I'm easy while looking directly at Lily Tomlin's character, and every other girl in the audience is who he's already slept with is thinking the song's about them.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah. So good. That's such a good scene. Um the thing that gets me so much about that guy is Lily Tomlin when she leaves the room makes me so mad. Because she still like gives him an eye. Even though that he's such a dick.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Straight up calling some other girl to try to get her over while Lily Tomlin's still in the room. Yeah. And we see how cool she is most of the time, and how he just again, he's another character that just beats a person down. You know? And like her I think it's the scene where he convinces her or something. Like when she's on the phone and she does this scene where she just stares right at the camera and she's on the phone, and I think he's just talking to her, convincing her to switch over. Because she has another scene before that where she's hardcore. You need to tell this dude if he calls. I don't want to fucking deal with this guy. Yeah, because man, she's so awesome. And then he he beats her down, she goes in there, sleeps with him, then she's like, I gotta go, and he immediately calls some other girl, and she still likes him when she leaves. Like, I just that part gets to me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I I agree with you. It's it's pretty weird. Um all right, and then next we could talk about Opal. That's well, we talked about Opal. That's the BBC reporter, so we don't have to talk, we don't have to talk about her again. Um there's Wade. Wade, um, Wade. He's interesting. He gets drunk a couple times, and you see him at the party where Elliot Gould shows up, he's waiting tables, he's he knows a lot of the people in the movie, and he he's kind of this good Samaritan type character because he goes up to Albuquerque who's passed out in the grass, asking if she's okay and if she has a ride, and then he comes to the rescue of Suline when Delbert Reese. Yeah, but tries to well he does he does, he comes to the rescue when Suline is getting propositioned by Delbert Reese after she just strip-teased for the guy, and then he's trying to convince her, he's trying to tell her the truth. He's like, You can't sing, you gotta stop. This town is gonna eat you alive. And as soon as he starts getting that truthful for her, she starts to perk up because prior to that, she's coming off the the like the trauma of wanting to be a singer and singing in front of all these men, but them heckling her and the men who are organizing it, convincing her to do a strip tease. So she does this the most melancholy strip tease, probably, that has ever been performed in the history of mankind. And then just walks off. And so she's so sad, and then right after that, Delbert Reese is trying to seduce her, and then Wade shows up, like a knight in shining armor, and Delbert immediately, he doesn't even Wade doesn't even have to say anything to Delbert. I think he says something to Suleen, where he's like, Sulene, are you okay? And then Delbert just does an about face, gets in his car, and drives off, and then Wade is trying to convince her to just quit. But she's so melancholy up until that point, and and when he tells her to quit singing, because she's terrible, she immediately perks back up and is optimistically defiant to his recommendation, which I thought was interesting. She's a bit of a she's a bit of a delusional character, but also that's I find that to be interesting. Where she's so committed to what she wants and who she wants to be that she's not gonna let anybody tell her otherwise. But not just that, she's gonna cling to that dream, especially at her darkest moment. I think that's pretty commendable. She doesn't seem like a very bright bulb, but um still ultimately kind of positive.
SPEAKER_01Um as an acting performance, that seems so good. Um the way she changes, because I think something about it to me reads like she's hearing the truth, and that makes her feel good, but then immediately turns that into but I still don't care if that's the truth or not. I'm I'm gonna go for it. And it's like most likely in this world not gonna go well for her, and that's that's tragic. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Shelly Duval, Martha, aka L A Joan.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. In terms of costume designs, like out of this world. You know, she's she sucks, but not really.
SPEAKER_05I mean, she's just young, you don't really know what her deal is. She just kind of likes meeting people, she kind of has a good time. She is with a different guy in every scene, but she you don't know if she's doing anything other than just hanging out with him, you know?
SPEAKER_01And so she's a little aloof to we discussed it earlier, to what's going on with her uncle and her aunt, and so that kind of like her from that stuff, but I like her in the sense of yeah, I want to see 80 hours of her waking up every day and putting on a different outfit and just rolling around and doing whatever all her wigs and everything just out of this world. Awesome.
SPEAKER_05All right, PFC Glenn Kelly by Scott Glenn. That's an interesting character. His story's kind of weird. His mother saved Barbara Jean from a burning building, and so he promised his mom that he'd go see Barbara Jean. And so he's there, he's real appreciative the whole time. He pretty much goes to every one of Barbara Jean's performances, whether it's at a church or whether it's at Opry Land or wherever, and he's just kind of there checking her out and being appreciative. That's his whole point. Yep. Other than to grab Kenny after he shoots her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think there's a little tension at first with him just because you're unsure. But but other than that, yeah, I think you're accurate.
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm. Alright, we talked about Jeff Goldblum. Um we talked about Albuquerque. Uh, we talked about Kenny. Let's talk about John Triplett, the political campaigner. My favorite scene with him is when he's in a bar sitting by sitting with Haven Hamilton, and Haven Hamilton explains to him that Connie White and Barbara Jean do not perform together. If anything, Connie White would replace Barbara Jean. But Haven Hamilton will always perform with Barbara Jean. That's what Haven explains to John Triplett. And John Triplett kind of like leans back in his chair, and behind him is Barnett talking to some other guy, and that some other guy tells Barnett to just relax and enjoy yourself. And then after that, John Triplett is kind of adjusting his tie and says, What I think is in response to Haven's comment is okay, but there's all these other dialogues going on where it seems like it could be in response to any of them. And it's the kind of the first reveal for that character, John Triplett, the political campaigner, where he is kind of bothered by the scene that he's in. And it's strange because it could be that he's just confused, he doesn't know what's what Haven's saying, or it's a bizarre arrangement, which again speaks to what's Haven doing with all these women? You know, and what's what's what's his whole deal? And so it's a little confusing, and so I thought that was a really interesting scene, especially for that character, especially considering that character is not very redeeming or endearing in any way.
SPEAKER_01My favorite thing about his character is his exit from the movie, is like powerful as fuck. Anyway, all that shit goes down, assassination, and then it's the shot of him cutting through the gospel choir and just walking out of the movie. Like, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna back out here and move on with my day, go somewhere else, you know, just like slinking slinking out of the scene the whole situation that he's a major part of.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, a member of the political culture creating this this scene and ultimately creating destruction. And once the destruction occurs, he immediately bursts and cuts through the spiritual component. Right.
SPEAKER_01Just slinks away, and the and the cars that um uh what's the Philip Walter? Walker, Philip Walker, how Philip Walker, yeah, yeah, yeah. He he's in the cars out back writing a speech, and they also, as soon as the shots ring out, cuts to those cars, and they all do circle around and just roll the fuck out of there immediately.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah, he's another snake, John Triplett. He's conniving and rude and manipulative. Uh he's like Haven Hamilton's. He's trying to recruit Haven because he's such a popular singer to get on stage in order to market his candidate, and he's sitting behind him during one of his performances and making fun of his height and making fun of his clothing and just being a jerk, you know, and there's really nothing redeeming about that guy. So anyway, then there's Bud Hamilton, uh Haven's son. Um he seemed like a pretty cool kid. Um maybe a little aloof. Probably had some aspirations to sing, probably had more talent than his dad. Yeah. But you know, interesting character. Really sets up other characters. That's what good the good characters in this m movie do. They really set up all of the main characters, which are bad people, to demonstrate their badness. We talked about it earlier with the BBC reporter asking him to sing his one song. He starts singing it and she immediately loses interest and then tries to run up to Elliot Gould to interview him. Right. Alright. Um, we gotta talk about Lenae or Linny Reese, played by Lily Tomlin.
SPEAKER_01We didn't even talk about her. No. She's my whole reason to watch this movie.
SPEAKER_05She's a bizarre character. Um, you know, um, obviously a very loving character. How she's married to Delbert Reese is a mystery. You know. Um she's that nice. She's too, she's too damn nice. She, you know, and that's again demonstrated by the ability to be manipulated by Tom, you know. But she's not. I mean, Delbert is so detached from the family because their children are deaf, and it's so unclear what he even does. So I get it. You know, I'm not upset with her for cheating on that guy, but it's probably a better way to handle that.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, maybe it's just she got I'm trying to look at that scene that I don't like. I'm trying to look at it in a different way. Maybe it's just like she just got a little relief in some way, and she's gonna walk away from that being like, hey, I did that. That's cool.
SPEAKER_05I yeah, I think you're right. I think she probably knew what she was getting into, and um she's the one who wanted to leave early, and he wanted her to stay, and so she she knew what she was getting into, and she knew she needed to get out of it. And so I mean, I mean it's kind it's probably all in his song.
SPEAKER_07Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05That it kind of explains like I'm easy. You know, there's a quality of easiness that is associated with being casual with sex and perhaps more promiscuous with sex. So it's probably it's exactly what she was looking for, you know? And he told her exactly who he was, and she's like, Oh, this is easy. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna do this and move on with my day. And so it's awesome. She's not upset.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he made me like this movie even more.
SPEAKER_01That scene with her and her kids, and they're just talking about her son going swimming or something like that. It straight up made me cry. I love that scene so much.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um, I guess the only other characters to talk about really are Bill and Mary.
SPEAKER_01Bill is the guitar. Like Mary's.
SPEAKER_05He's one of the guitar players in the trio that's more of the quote unquote rock band that's come to town, and he's in a trio with Mary and Tom. Right.
SPEAKER_01And he's married to Mary.
SPEAKER_05He's married to Mary. Mary's having an affair with Tom, and at the end of the movie, they run off together after the assassination. Like he grabs her and runs off with her, and she doesn't resist, you know? Yeah. And there's another scene with her. She's an interesting character. She she's obviously caught in the love triangle, and there's a scene where John Triplett comes to their hotel room, but prior to that, they were in a big fight.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Bill and Mary were in a big fight. And then she storms off into the bedroom, closes the door, and then John Triplett comes in and he starts talking to Bill about this opportunity. And then they talk about it for a little while, and then suddenly emerges Mary, all nice and attentive and curious about the opportunity, right? And so it was a it was a very interesting shift in her in the character's personality. And it kind of left me a little weird because I was like, is she just being opportunistic with this guy, or does she actually respect that he's talking to this guy who and that's and because of Bill, he's able to facilitate these opportunities. It's kind of unclear um what the relationship is all really about. But she's there and she's engaged, even if she's a little argumentative about the whole thing, because she's resistant to the political nature of the event.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05And she's not the only musician who is throughout the movie. Um But later, the three of them, Tom, Bill, and Mary, perform a song, and she's and the lyrics are very connected to the conflict within this relationship of this trio, and she's singing songs. Listening to her bandmates sing songs and she's looking at them at different times, kind of appreciating like the type of person that they are. And so it's an interesting conflict that doesn't really get resolved. It does get resolved because she realizes Mary realizes that Tom is a lander not really interested in her because he sees her him when he's performing, it's easy looking at Lily Tom. And she she so she sees that. So it kind of resolves with her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I feel in that song that they all sing together, Bill seems like he has her back in the song. He's like really singing with her to her, playing kind of aggressively in a good way. Yeah. You know, he's like into the song really, and he's like trying to sing with her. Yeah, yeah. And he's not detached at all. And she's checking it all out. And um, Tom is already basically both feet out the door. Right. You know, because he starts the whole song out going like, I used to be in a trio.
SPEAKER_05And Bill's like eating out of table, he's like, used to be. Yeah, Tom is like the biggest jerk in the whole. You know, just the manner in which he manages that. But it's what's so cool about that is Bill and Mary. He invites them on stage then to perform, and Bill and Mary are so cool about it. You know? I mean, Bill is super cool about it, everything. And but he's also conflicted. It's not like he's just passive passively going like this is whatever. No, he's like, This sucks, but I'm still gonna try to be supportive and just roll with the punches. So it's he's a pretty commendable character, I think. I like the Bill, I like the Bill character a lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_05Cool. I mean, there's a whole bunch of other characters we could talk about. We could talk about Sue Barton, we could talk about Vassar Clements, the fiddler player. He has some solos.
SPEAKER_01Oh, he's the he's the hero of the movie.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05That guy I made a I made a note about him. He has some serious like touch with his playing. I can tell just by listening to him how much strength he has based on how he was playing. It was pretty remarkable. Yeah, he's there's so much feel, there was so much feel in every note, and he was playing a lot of notes. Yeah. And so he was transitioning and running scales on this fiddle, and just and just the dynamics of the frequencies and the volumes shifting and playing one resonant note into a scale, and then stopping on it down. I was like, oh my god, that guy probably has one of the strongest hands that ever existed. Yeah, he's great. So that was yeah. So that was cool. We talked about Frog a little bit. He's a funny character, and there's so many more characters that we didn't get a chance to talk to.
SPEAKER_01And I mean, I'll do this, I'll do this episode again next year, so we can we can hit all those. Every extra eventually. I just want to do a whole episode on every costume in this entire movie.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01That costume work is so good. I would just it look like it would be so fun to make that movie and just show up on every day and look at the wardrobe tent and be like, oh fucking hell yeah, I get to wear this today. Shelly Doris.
SPEAKER_05I sure you don't I sure you don't want to ruminate on the sadness of the thematic elements.
SPEAKER_01I'll do that next time too. Probably not. I always I I ultimately feel very happy uh after watching this and all of Altman's great movies. I can't help but feel very happy after I watch them. What I what I love. He's these are my top five favorite directors. So I guess you could say I'm an Altman file.
SPEAKER_05I would say that. I would say you're an Altman file. I would also say you're a Nashville file.
SPEAKER_04I don't know if I am.
SPEAKER_05But I do I do love putting in the work to try to figure that out. And I am a work file. I am a thought file. And this movie challenged me to do that.
SPEAKER_01You should check out California Split like shortly after watching this movie, because it's one of the I mean it's it has his tone and all that stuff, but it's a l it's a little more fun, it's short. It's Elliot Gould all the way to the bank. So that's a that's a fun one. I saw it for the first time just recently.
SPEAKER_05Maybe I will. I've seen a lot of Altman movies. Um I don't know if he's my guy, but is there any that you like a lot?
SPEAKER_04I haven't seen his movies in a really long time.
SPEAKER_05I don't know if there is a movie that he's done that I really, really, really like. I think there's components in all the movies that he's made that I like. I just don't think I love them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I can s on a uh I can see that. I mean I can understand in some way uh people not responding that well to it. However, it also doesn't totally make sense to me because I love it so much. So it's a little maybe unrational or or um unobjective in a way, if you can get that to a place where you can't be objective.
SPEAKER_05Well that's an interesting conversation. Yeah. And while there may be no central conflict in Nashville, or perhaps any Altman movies, there appears to be conflict, in our opinion, of Nashville and perhaps Robert Altman, which will lend itself to future conversations. Especially if you're thinking I'm being non-objective about Oh no, I was saying about myself.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I wasn't saying that about you at all.
SPEAKER_05Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01I'm saying if I become such a fan and I love his stuff so much that I get to a point where I can't even really be objective about it. You know, because I just watch this movie and probably 80% of it um just arts coming out of my eyes in love because it's so much my style.
SPEAKER_05Well, it is a comedy and it has some interesting production techniques that we could probably dig into more. We could probably think about those and try to understand why you love them so much. I wish we I wish we would have gotten more into that uh in this episode, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_03I'm sure we will in real life. So that'll be sweet.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, one way or another. Um what it'll be interesting to see is how this influence, non-objective or objective or something else, finds its way into something that we produce.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05But that's a chat for another day. So if you do not have any other final thoughts, would you consider that a rap?
SPEAKER_01Well, I do think that I'm officially uh an Altman file and you're not. So I'm curious to see where that goes. I mean, you'll still continue to watch Altman movies, right? You're not like that down on him that you look at it as a struggle to watch one of his movies.
SPEAKER_05I wouldn't consider it a struggle to watch his movies. I might consider it too much work.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05But that's okay.
SPEAKER_01Because let's give it let's give it a a little bit, and I I I I would like to test it at some point with another Altman movie. So let's just keep that in the back burner.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And see if we can maybe go through a couple movies here and there and let some time go by and then see if we want to revisit a a different Altman. Like we could do California Split, um, or we could do Three Women, which I've never seen. So we could that's one of the few that I haven't ever seen. And that's Sissy Spasic and Shelly Duvall and somebody else.
SPEAKER_05I haven't seen either of those movies. There's a 1972 movie called Images, which is a psychological horror movie. Ooh, we can do that. I'm interested in seeing that. I'm interested in seeing some of his more modern movies, post shortcuts, which I don't believe I've seen any other than a Prairie Home Companion. Dr.
SPEAKER_01T and the Women is a banger.
SPEAKER_05Never Never saw that, never saw Kansas City, never saw Gingerbread Man, never saw Gosford Park. I was a fan of the player. That's probably my favorite movie that he did. He did Popeye too, which is hilarious. Doesn't seem correct.
SPEAKER_01But I always love turning on Popeye. And like whatever scene is on is great. And then it as it goes, it's too near impossible to make it all the way through. It is possible. Like if you're just doing it to do it, it's not hard to do. It's a watchable movie, but when whenever you start it, no matter where it is, that scene rocks. And you're like, this movie's great. Why do I always think it's not? And it's just the tone of it is so over the top that you can't get on its wavelength for a long period of time.
SPEAKER_05I'd like to see Thieves Like Us, which was co-written by Joan Tooksberry, who also wrote Nashville. And it also stars Keith Carradine and Shelly Duvall. And it seems like a very different movie. And so I'm curious if it has a similar style to Nashville. Because it was pr it was released in 1974. And so it was released the same year as California Split. Oh wow. Yeah, I mean I'm telling you, Robert Altman was prolific. 34 feature-length movies in 38 years, and that's not even the full body of his work.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05You know.
SPEAKER_01Did you read about Tanner 88? No. That's like a 10 episode series where they invented a character, like a political character, to run against real people. And they documentary filmed the whole thing. Like he legit got into a race and was just fucking around or something like that. I don't know, I haven't seen it. I just read about it recently. And I was like, holy crap, that sounds crazy. I I'd kind of like to see that too.
SPEAKER_05That does seem cons crazy considering he released two movies in 1987 that he directed. I mean, it's just like he's just never stopped working. And I think there's some sort of secret that is threaded throughout his entire career. That leads me to believe he knew he really knew how to be a director. He really knew what that meant. And he really knew he really had developed the skills to be a director. He was also a writer. He wrote a lot of the screenplays that he directed, but not all of them. And so he obviously, I think, had a very deep understanding of the story and how to do the job of being a director. Because there's no way he could have been that productive had he not understood that but also embraced the collaborative art form that is filmmaking. And I would imagine leaning heavily on the collective of artists that are required to produce a feature like that. And to some degree relinquishing a lot of create creative power. You know, and just really being that the chief integrator of the ideas, the core ideas. And so I don't know any of that. I've never watched a Robert Altman interview. I've never heard any interviews of people talking about Robert Altman. I've seen maybe ten of his movies, and they're all very different. T and they all have a style about them that is indicating obviously whoever's making this knows what they're doing. A message is being communicated. T. It seems like everything is per purposeful to your point earlier in the episode. Every second is meaningful. Even in Nashville, which seems to be experimental, disorienting, detached, discombobulating, but all with intent. T and I find that intriguing. And so while I might not be a lover of Robert Altman movies, or a lover of Robert Altman's sense of life, although I don't know what that is, really. I and I don't know if I am or I'm not. But I have I have respect for the body of work and for the understanding that that requires. And so I'd be intrigued to watch every movie he's ever directed in order to know who he is. I and I think I would know who he is best by watching all of his movies. And avoiding the commentaries. All that other bullshit that encompasses the industry. I'd be open to watching any and all of his movies. So whenever whenever you want to do that, just recommend recommend one and I'll get down on it. And I will put the work in to understand it because even if it's not something that I love, it'll bring into focus that which I do. And I love that. And I love that. Alright. Any other final thoughts?
SPEAKER_01I think that is officially a rap.
SPEAKER_05Well, you may say that we ain't free, but for now, I'm just gonna say that doesn't bother me. So go file it.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, but don't call it a podcast. This is broader than pods. We're rapping about gods in the movies we love. We're talking about the odd meaning of cinema flame. The filing cast is fond of the in between.