007 Jacob's Ladder

In this episode we discuss the director Adrien Lyne’s movie Jacob’s Ladder starring Tim Robbins.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Don't call it a podcast, this is called it in pods. We're rapping about pods in the movies we love. Talking about the pod meaning of cinema things the filling cast is following in between.

SPEAKER_06 0:34

Welcome to Filing, where we love to think and rap about our love of cinema. Please don't call it a podcast. It's broader than pods. And please don't call it filling. This is the Filingcast. I'm Sean Patrick, and I'll be joined by Brandon Mitchell. We are ideaphiles, story files, and cinephiles. Our aim is to share those loves and understand their value and importance in our lives with each other and everyone who listens. Our discussion might be a broad and detailed spoiler, so if you haven't seen this episode's movie, stop listening to us right now. Go watch it, and then return to filing to hear our thoughts and feelings. We describe parts of this movie and then say, or something like that, a total of 19 times in this episode. So if you make this episode a themed reaction game, every time we say the phrase, or something like that, do the running man dance as fast as you dare for 10 seconds. That should get your heart rate up and more oxygen to the brain to finish your diligent listen of this episode. This is the sixth episode of the After the Life inspiration series, which is a collection of movie reviews intended to inspire the production of an original movie titled The After the Life. The After the Life is currently being produced and will screen at an event called The Fest 2026 on July 18th. Go to thefest2026.com for details about the event. Adrian Lyne was part of the 1970s generation of British filmmakers that included Ridley Scott, the director of Alien and Blackhawk Down, and Ridley's brother Tony Scott, who directed Top Gun and True Romance. Adrian Lyne's connection to Tony Scott may come as no surprise to cinephiles who grew up in the 1980s and 1990s and came to love the imagery of Tony Scott movies, and who appreciate perhaps the greatest component of Jacob's Ladder, the cinematography. The director of photography for Jacob's Ladder is Jeffrey L. Kimball. Kimball was also the director of photography for the Tony Scott films Top Gun, Beverly Hills Cop 2, Revenge, and True Romance. The look of all these films and Jacob's Ladder share distinct visual similarities. The atmosphere, or rather, the literal air between the walls and characters is often observable. Jeffrey Kimball combines the elements of light and substance, that of smoke, haze, and dust. This combination evokes the thought that one could reach out and touch the air floating within and around the streaks and spreads of light. Air is typically invisible, but is still a substance. This idea captures the essence of Jacob's Ladder, that there is more than what we see, and that sometimes those invisible things are revealed or discovered. Jacob's Ladder is a horror movie. The lead character of Jacob's Ladder is Jacob Singer. Jacob is a postman and a Vietnam veteran. Jacob is severely wounded in combat during the Vietnam War and struggles to stay alive as his fellow soldiers hurry him to a medical triage tent. It is unclear at the beginning of the movie and made clear later that Jacob is making a choice while being rushed off the battlefield and treated for his wound. He is choosing, according to his quote-unquote chiropractor, to not let go of his life. What does a chiropractor have to do with getting stabbed by a bayonet in the stomach during a combat operation in Vietnam? Well, not everything is as it seems or appears to be in Jacob's Ladder. But the theme in central conflict is made clear. The theme of Jacob's Ladder is the acceptance of death or human mortality. The plot theme or central conflict is Jacob's fear of death and the psychological terror aroused by the knowledge of one's own mortality versus the acceptance of Jacob's nature as a human being. The portrayal of this conflict is deeply and explicitly influenced by a religious view of existence. This view does not alter the fact that Jacob has a choice to make, and only he can make that choice. That is, a choice to accept his death and nature as a man and achieve peace or not, and experience hellish terror evoked by fear and anger. The value of the theme is that it illustrates the true and fundamental nature of human beings as animals, with the capacity to choose our actions, and as animals that will one day cease living. But the deepest importance of the theme is psychological. In order to enjoy our limited time with these bodies and with these minds, we must accept our nature, process the fear that stirs up from that awareness, refocus on the living, and repeat if necessary until the day we die. Whether you believe in life after death or not, acceptance of death is required to focus and enjoy one's life.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Thank you. What was that like? I missed you. I missed being there too.

SPEAKER_05 6:43

It was it was hellish doing it by myself, but still worth it.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah, much much uh lighter movie though.

SPEAKER_06 6:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. However, when you deep dive, it's it's pretty sad, but it definitely leans positive.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

It's kind of like the demon version and the angelic version of Danny Aiello in each movie. Oh, yeah. I'll take this one, this version from Jacob's Ladder. Okay on the Danny A front. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_06 7:30

And yeah, that's what we're discussing this episode of Jacob's Ladder. This movie was a lot of fun. What did you think?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah, there's a lot lot to go into there. This movie is so much about theme. You know, it's like pretty impressive, I think. Because it's kind of experimental a little bit. Yeah. Um, actually, the best parts of about it, I think, are the more experimental parts with um editing timelines and stuff like that, where it's not crystal clear. I mean, I I I think it ultimately is very clear because of the focus on theme, and they they always seem to go back to that um all the way up through the end, which I think at this point is pretty famous as an ending in movie history, you know, because it kind of creates or expands sort of a j a genre of the like, is this movie all just a dream as the main character's dying or died early on in the movie? There's a tons tons of movies that can be looked at that way. Um, and I think I've even heard you know, the it commonly referred to as a movie being like a Jacobs ladder scenario or something like that. So um, so anyway, I think that's all because the focus on the theme is kept front and center, like pretty much from the beginning. So so that's cool. Um definitely want to talk about the Tony Scott connection. Let's do that. Yeah, because that stuck out to me, you know, fairly quickly, especially when it gets he gets home for the first time. Just the way the apartment is shot. There's some mirrors in there, and the way he frames people in a bed and stuff like that. It's like I could not, I didn't pick up in the opening credits that it was Jeffrey Kimball, uh cinematographer. I must have missed that name or something, but definitely when it got to that apartment, I was just thinking, this looks like tons of sh scenes in true romance. Um, you brought up revenge, definitely like the framing of how he shoots stuff with Tony Scott a lot. It just like I I just made notes of that right off the bat, going like, this looks like a Tony Scott movie. It just doesn't quite have as much smokiness in the rooms as Tony Scott, I think, would do. There's still a texture to yeah, there's still some. It's just I think because I was trying to figure out what the difference is. I think the coloring is a tiny bit different in Tony Scott movies. Um, this one's uh a little more drab or something like that. And I think Tony Scott would go more colorful and more contrasty, um, and has a lot of times a little more smoke in in the shots, but other than that, the framing and everything is like the exact same. It's like a comforting feeling to watch his movies. The cameras always seem to be in the right spot, and he shoots actors, so so awesome. Close his close-up work is so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:25

I love Jeffrey Kimball's aesthetic. I don't know who's more responsible, the directors or that cinematographer, but I'm sure it's a team effort to achieve that look. And that might be my favorite look in the history of cinema. A combination of framing and color and lighting and atmosphere. Like you can see and almost feel the atmosphere in a lot of the shots. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yeah. His use of blue like in night scenes. That's looks so good. Yeah. It's kind of pulling from a film noir look. Even though it's a lot of these Tony Scott movies and this movie aren't a film noir, but it has uh has a look that seems to grow from that.

SPEAKER_06 12:27

Yeah, the use of practical lighting and integrating that into the sound design, like the opening subway sequence is real fun.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Yeah, and there's so much um fluorescent light work in this movie, which I think is interesting because fluorescent lighting typically isn't aesthetically pleasing. And I think when you shoot I don't know if this is completely accurate, but I think if you shoot fluorescent lights normally, they tend to come out green or sort of like an ugly greenish color. So he definitely does some color correcting or something like that to make all those lights appear really blown out white with a bluish tint to it. And yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:26

You can get different color fluorescent lights. And fluorescent lights are a soft light that are typically used in interviews and or at least were used in interviews before LED lighting took over. Which also shift green when they get too old. Yeah, as the actual bulbs die gradually. Anyway, um the man never received an award. And I read something about Adrian Lyne. He said Stanley Kubrick called him and asked him what filter he used in a particular ad. And Adrian Lyon said I was using a graduated filter. And so at least within the industry, these guys are pretty well respected. But they were never nominated for anything. A lot of their movies were successful. Adrian Lyne directed Fatal Attraction and some other big movies, but the cinematography was never singled out as were as worthy of an award. And I find that strange because I like it so much, but I'm not a cinematographer, so perhaps there's something I'm missing.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe it's just from the time period. I mean, all these movies are pretty kind of popular movies unless art housey or something like that, and maybe that's yeah, it's kind of like Tony Scott. I mean, he never got awards for anything. Um, but I think he was just trying to make popular entertainment type movies. Yeah. And I mean, Fatal Attraction, I think might have gotten I think that probably got a couple Oscar nominations.

SPEAKER_06 15:41

I think it won. I think it won Best Picture.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Oh, really? Wow.

SPEAKER_06 15:45

Let me double check that.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

I could definitely imagine Glenn Close being nominated in that.

SPEAKER_06 15:53

But no, it did not win Best Picture, it was nominated.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 15:58

It was also nominated for Best Director. Glenn Close was nominated, Ann Archer screenplay was nominated, editing as well. So yeah. I think that was the movie that put Adrian Lyne on the map. I mean, he he did Flashdance also. Yeah. I don't know if that was very popular. But Fatal Attraction, I think, was the highest grossing movie of the year in 86 or 87. Or one of the highest.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yeah, Adrian Lyne's pretty kind of pretty unique as a director. Always very like sexual themes in his movies.

SPEAKER_06 16:42

He did Indecent Proposal. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Unfaithful is another one. That's pretty good. And this movie.

SPEAKER_06 16:53

And this movie. Jacob's Ladder.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Definitely sexuality is played up in this movie too. In like an interesting way. Kind of different from the rest of his movies. Where it's like the other ones are dealing with sex specifically a lot more. This one is more just a sexuality is present. And it's almost using sexuality in like a tempteress way to bring someone to the dark side.

SPEAKER_06 17:26

Yeah, I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:29

He has a girlfriend named Jezebel, which is one of many religious symbols or references, um, who is supposedly, maybe, probably, depending upon what storyline you want to believe in. She is a demon, a lustful demon, who admits she's a great lay, and she's always asking him if he loves her. And yeah, they use her sexuality throughout the movie.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Almost every scene has sex in it, or it's she always has like her sh her blouse or or oh yeah, robe kind of open. You know, or if it cuts to them in bed, she's like usually not wearing any clothes. It's not gratuitous, I don't think. No, but it's just kind of always there. Um and there's other moments throughout too. But um yeah, with her, I think her character to me is the most interesting character in the movie. If it's it could be performance that makes it more interesting than it is as written. But she definitely fluctuates between being that uh temptress demon character, but she also has a nurturing, uh caring side to her. You know, so it's it makes it confusing in a good way. Because you can she pull she pulls m like us as the viewer around just like she's doing with Jacob, I think. Where you can see how he could get stuck with her because, for example, the scene where he gets that 106 fever she starts that scene out by being real critical of him, and he's laying in bed real sick, and she's going, You embarrassed me, you made me look like an idiot, and all this stuff, and then takes his temperature and it's 106, and she immediately bursts into like getting him up, getting him in the tub, putting ice on him, calling the doctor, going down the hallway, getting all these people, all these friends and stuff to help out. And so it makes her seem super caring in that m moment, you know. I think it just draws it makes the character super complex. What do you think about her?

SPEAKER_06 20:35

About Jesse, played by Elizabeth Paina. Yep. I think you're right, and I think that that is explained by Louis, the chiropractor. There's some indications that Jacob's in purgatory and he has to make a decision as to whether or not he accepts his death or not. And when Louis's explaining this to him, he says it's really a matter of perspective. These people can be perceived as devils or they can be perceived as angels, depending upon what you decide. And so it's it's a correct, I think, decision to have the character embody both sides and quickly move from one to the other. The first time you get any sort of visual clue that she may be a demon is when he's engrossed in all these books about demonology and purgatory, etc., and she's talking to him, but he's not listening to her. She comes into the room and she starts yelling at him. Like, hello, is there anybody in there? And then it cuts to an extreme close up of her face screaming this and her eyes. Are black and her teeth are real sharp. And then he pushes her away. And she flips out and leaves. And you s next time you see her, a couple scenes later, it's as if nothing happened. And she's worried about him. And he explains I was in the hospital. And she immediately starts going into the mode you were explaining, which is being more compassionate and caring. So interesting.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

That scene where she looks like a demon in that shot, which is probably the scariest moment in the movie. It's one of my favorite parts. It's also sort of foreshadowed by there, like it cuts to her in a mirror a lot in the beginning of that scene. And her face is all distorted. Oh, really? And kind of chopped up by this mirror. Interesting. So when she's talking to him, trying to say things like, you need to get up and do something, like you can't sit around all the time. When it's showing her she's in this mirror, and it's it's like you can't ever see her face clearly. It's either cutting her eyes out or cutting her mouth off and stuff like that. So it's really cool. And just adds this level of, you know, you're not really sure, you can't see her clearly, and you don't know what her emotions are based on her face or anything like that. And then she, you know, rushes toward the screen, and then her eyeballs are all black, and it's crazy. I love that scene. It's so well done. And this movie has definitely a nostalgic side to it, because I saw it, I think, when I was maybe 11 or 12 the first time, and there's so many visuals, cuts and things like that, that I'll never forget from seeing it when I was just a kid. Like, as soon as we get it cuts to that bedroom scene, and she's doing that whole thing, it's like immediately my brain is going like, oh, this is the scene. This is where she's gonna rush in and and be so scary. Because that that just you know got me when I was a kid. I remember feeling a rush of adrenaline throughout my entire body when that happened the first time I saw that. So scary. And so stuff like that, stuff like the um Vietnam sequence in the beginning. There's a shot of a guy with his leg sort of blown off, but it's connected by just like a couple pieces of flesh or something like that, and it's all flopping around. That's you know, if if somebody would say, Hey, you ever see Jacob's ladder, that image probably would come up in my head. There's so many stuff like that. The the hospital um gurney with the wheel spinning on like that gross hospital floor with blood all over it and stuff like that. Just all those images are just seared into my brain. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 25:40

That's the primary image that's seared into my mind is that hospital bed wheeling through this. It's such that is such a bizarre sequence because he's taken to a hospital, it looks like a regular hospital, and then it just they take him into this room and they're working on him, and and then they say something like they're gonna take him to the OR, they're gonna take him somewhere else, and then they say, um, he's out, take him down, take him down to X-ray or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Yeah, and then he just goes into this hellscape.

SPEAKER_06 26:18

Not immediately. It's so yeah, immediately it cuts to these two guys pushing him through what appears to be a run-down garage or like warehouse, and it just looks really dark and creepy, and just uh some sort of building that has offices, but it hasn't been used in like 50 years, and it's fallen apart.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

And they push him past this one room, and he sees an old bicycle, and they keep pushing him, and then suddenly go through these doors, and he's in an insane asylum with tile floors, and they well, even before that, even before that, there's the first the first main cut that I remember that tells you he's in some weird place is they're showing him showing the Gurney and the wheels going over top of a bunch of broken glass. And then you're like, what the heck?

SPEAKER_06 27:25

Is that a close-up on the wheel?

SPEAKER_01 27:27

It's not a couple of super close up on the wheel. It's kind of in front, I think in front of the the uh is that what it's called? A gurney uh like the hospital bed. That hospital bed thing. I think it's in front of it, showing maybe like the front two wheels, but it just shows it rolling over top of some glass, and then um, and then it does a cut to the the p person's foot that's pushing that thing, and it's his legs and shoes and everything are all wrapped up in some sort of protective suit, like a hazmat type suit, and it just in the scene before that when the guys are walking down, they're wearing normal clothes, so it's like somehow they instantly changed into now they're wearing like this weird hazmat shit. So it's like yeah, it's weird cutting that just changes it to oh now he's down in hell, and then then it then he's in the insane asylum, and it's the old do you know, like old school Todd Brown, I think Tod Browning, he did like these movies in the 30s, like the main famous one is called Freaks, and he would just get circus freak type people, and he would have them in his movies, just like you know, like an eight-foot-tall person, and like I don't know, just all types of weird people, people missing arms and things like that, and then it's it sort of like gets into stuff like that where there's people crawling above him that are missing half their legs or you know, hands and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_06 29:22

And it's so there's like a there's a woman breastfeeding a dead baby, yeah. Yeah, there, yeah, there's like a screen ceiling, and people all above him crawling around, and there's people in another room on the other side of a window, like bashing their head into the window, and they're it's bleeding. And eventually he gets to a portion of this building where there's body parts all over the ground, and it cuts to a close-up of that a wheel on the hospital bed that hits a body part, and the body part gets pushed for a while by the wheel until it gets pushed out of the way, and then it like they turn a corner and it cuts to this pile of arms and hands, yeah, and then cuts to this narrower hallway, and it's a wider shot, and you can see the hospital bed bumping up and on top of things. You can tell at this point there's just body parts everywhere where they can't even really roll it, and it's like at this part, at this point, it feels like they're getting into a deeper level of hell, but it would there's a gradual descent into what could be characterized as hell, yeah. And then there's the famous doctor sequence where he's interacting with the doctor who's telling him he's been he's dead and he's been killed, and then there's the eyeless doctor who sticks a needle in his forehead. But the main we were talking about the the imagery that stands out for us. The close up on the wheel hitting and pushing that body part, bloody body part on the ground, in and amongst a whole bunch of other bloody body parts is the primary image in my mind when I think of Jacob's Ladder. Yeah, it's so it's so disgusting and so scary.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Yeah. Yeah, we had talked before we started this recording, and I said, and this is before I did my rewatch, and I was like, Jacob's Ladder is in a horror movie, and I I could rethink that. So before watching it, I was pretty I was pretty sure Jacob's Ladder was just kind of some drama. But now after watching it, I think it's a horror movie for sure.

SPEAKER_06 32:05

I I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Yeah, but I don't know. It it could be argued probably either way, but I think um there's definitely like the whole way the movie plays out, it's not like you know, obviously it's not like a slasher type movie or something like that, but it does have a common reoccurrence of horror scenes that build throughout the movie. And it it starts, I mean, I think the subway scene is a horror scene in the beginning. Yep. Um and and the the dance party scene is a horror scene. The the a quick one when the girl turns when Jez turns into a demon for a second. That's a clear horror scene, even though it's super brief. Um that scene going into the hospital hellscape hundred percent so horror because I mean, just like the the gore of it is that alone makes it a horror movie, I think, for me. I like I remember that. I remember that shot, the bloody floor. Uh I didn't remember the exact part of I mean the wheel spinning when like one of the wheels comes off the ground and it spins around before it catches the ground again, and then it hits the severed limb. Um, the wheel spinning is the thing that sticks in my head. So I was surprised by the it runs through its limb and gets stuck in there. It's it just like takes that to a leaven, you know? And then, like you said, it then it you see a big pile up of arms and stuff like that, and it's like that's pure, pure horror. And then there's like maybe one more sequence. There's a couple more, but I think the last there's a last jolt of it near the end when he's kind of making his final decision on whether he's gonna keep being afraid of dying or or kind of ascend the staircase. So yeah, anyway. So I change I change that. I think it's a horror movie.

SPEAKER_06 34:39

I I would agree with that. The other image that stands out in my mind is another bloody scene, which is when he gets stabbed with that bayonet. When the bayonet pulls out of his body, so much blood comes out with with the bayonet that always stuck with me. So I don't want to characterize the movie as a a very gory movie. There is some gore in it, but yeah, it's not extremely gory. The gore that's in there is pretty disturbing, um, but pretty appropriate if you're trying to visually represent what hell would be. So I think it was appropriate. I don't think it was gratuitous. I think that was just a part of the horror. I think it's primarily a psychological horror movie. Yeah. And so, I mean, there's some thriller components too. There might be some action movie elements. You know, that opening sequence is very quintessential Vietnam action movie.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Yeah, we should um let's talk about the Vietnam stuff.

SPEAKER_06 35:56

Before that, let's talk about the opening title sequence.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 36:02

Because I love the cinematography of that as well. It's basically two helicopters. We're following two helicopters carrying some supplies over bodies of water through what appears to be jungle areas like Vietnam. And there's only a couple colors. It's like almost maybe at dawn or dusk, and it's very orange, maybe almost sepia tone, but just different, different degrees of orange brownish hue, and everything else is silhouetted, like the jungle silhouetted, silhouetted, the helicopters are silhouetted, and they're just reflected off the water, which is its own kind of orange tone, and then like the the sky and the water and like the layers of the mountain range are just different hues of orange brown. And I thought that looked amazing. Just wanted to note that. Yeah, I would like to get a frame of some of those shots and just hang it up in my house. So then there's the opening sequence, which the main thing I like about the opening sequence is it demonstrates the camaraderie of all these sh soldiers very quickly with a dick joke. And then later in the movie, when all these characters get back together after one of them is killed, they all go to his funeral, they gather at a house, and then they all go to the roof of the house. One of the characters, his name is Rod, tries to say another dick joke, but this time nobody laughs. I thought that was pretty pretty funny that they kind of juxtapose the two scenes with one another. Yeah. In an effort to kind of demonstrate how they've changed, and how this one character, Rod, who is pretty much the only one firmly against everyone else trying to go after the US government.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Right. He's the guy that's not experiencing any of this stuff.

SPEAKER_06 38:35

Well, we don't know who's experiencing it, really. We we only know of two guys that really experience it. And like maybe the Ving Rheims character. It's kind of unclear. But he, the Rod guy, he he seems like an Italian from New York. He's the only one who is explicitly kind of calling everyone crazy for even thinking about hiring a lawyer to investigate what happened to them in Vietnam. And he also says things like, Demons aren't even real. What are we talking about? What are we doing? This is crazy. And so he's tries, he then tries to make another dick joke, and nobody's laughing. And he's like, Ah man. I love that. I love that connection. I love that they did that so far. It's hilarious. When I first when I watched the movie the first time, I was la I was laughing out loud. Other than Pruitt Taylor Vince, who played Paul Gruniger, that's the only other thing that kind of stood out for me in that opening sequence. But um, what were you thinking?

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Well, I guess in in total, I find that the Vietnam stuff is kind of my biggest problem with this movie. Um makes sense. Part partly because I think over time it just like unfortunately, I guess, or whatever, it's like it's so long ago that it's hard to relate to that anymore. When we were kids and like Vietnam movies were coming out all the time, and it was clearly people had gotten through that period and trying to use film to break it apart and talk about it and deal with it. And this movie is you know definitely has a like that's probably its secondary theme in general, is that trauma from the Vietnam War. And it just it doesn't resonate as much anymore, I don't think. And to me it sort of s slows the movie down by it constantly has to go back into that to almost do the exposition parts to explain what might be happening. You know? And it's almost like I don't know, so I it's I just noticed I had the most problem with that stuff because it's like I just don't at this point right now, I don't watch this movie and go, oh yeah, war is hell or something like that. I'm more like a different experience maybe of a person dealing with death would be more interesting nowadays. Yeah. You know. And it's just it's not the movie's fault, really. It's just time, you know, time goes by and it's hard to watch a Vietnam movie now and be like as swept up in that feeling of PTSD and stuff like that from Vietnam specifically.

unknown 42:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

So I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 42:17

I just it's a biz it's a bizarre component of the movie for I think multiple reasons, but the main one is it's mostly the backstory, but the way the movie's edited and the way the story's told, the backstory is constantly in the front story because it's cutting back and forth between the sequence because of what it all means. I thought the most problematic portion was the very end of the movie when everything's over and a title comes up that says it was reported that the hallucinogenic drug D Z was used in experiments on soldiers during the Vietnam War. The Pentagon denied the story, and then it goes to the closing credits. I mean, yeah, a it's completely unnecessary ending title. I mean, this is right after Jake is lying on his back in the triage and he's pronounced dead, and the doctor turns off his light, and he's like, he's gone. And then Sunny Boy, the song he sang to his little boy in bed, fades in, and then it cuts to that title sequence, and you're like, What? It's like it's a if anything, it's a sub theme and it's backstory, and you're ending with backstory, an explanation of the backstory, doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

So yeah, that's why I think back in the day, like 1990, that's you know, 15 years after the Vietnam War. And, you know, I mean, you could you could say maybe like Platoon was the movie that. That you know people really went out in droves to see that was like finally we're dealing with the Vietnam War, and then then it's just casualties of war, this movie, like and then a couple other Oliver Stone ones and stuff like that. It's like definitely a time period where trying to deal with stuff like that, and then maybe you know, some stories of testing, you know, testing drugs and stuff on soldiers was coming out. So that was definitely part of this, and that's why I'm saying you just watch it now, and especially with that ending title card, you're just so disconnected from it, I think, now that you're like, don't even need that to be the point anymore.

SPEAKER_06 44:50

It's not the point.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Like the horror stuff and the and the dealing with death is still done so well. I think it's just it's kind of mind-blowing to me how clear that concept is put across in the movie. And it's just like that's the stuff that I care about. And I don't know, the the Vietnam stuff just while it's shot really well, I have no problem with how the sequences are put together at all. It's just as soon as those and it cuts back to that, I just something happens where I'm like not as into the movie. Like I I but I but it at the same time, it like it makes sense. I like that you have this moment where the movie may take place in the c in the span of you know 30 minutes or an hour from the time this weird thing happens and he gets stabbed and then gets picked up, take to taken to like a medical tent and dies. The whole movie could take place in that amount of time. But it's also I mean, we can probably get into this type of conversation because this part is the crazy part, you know, is like breaking apart what you think really is the deal with this movie.

SPEAKER_06 46:31

Yeah, we can do that, you know. Regarding the Vietnam backstory, I think I think it's all fine because one of the main purposes of it is to mislead the audience.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:48

And uh demonstrate that the lead character Jacob has you know multiple conflicts going on. You know, is he dead? Is he losing his mind? Has he been uh drugged? And is that why he's losing his mind? I think all of that's fine throughout the movie. I think it would really the only really thing that I find to be unnecessary is that final title sequence. Everything else is everything else is fine. I mean I'm a little critical of the opening sequence's uh uh dialogue, but it seems a little uh generic and uh not very creative and not uh terribly realistic, but uh it's a movie, so it's fine. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

I like I like Tim Robbins uh introduction and the way he comes into the movie, it's kind of funny because he's out taking a dump and they're busting on him, and he just his he laughs. His first like four lines of the movie are just him laughing at people busting on him.

SPEAKER_06 48:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

I think that's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_06 48:04

Yeah, that part's cool.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:07

And to your point about how long it took, it took at least I would say 12 hours because he's stabbed during the day, and then he's discovered overnight because he's laying there in the jungle for a while, and then when he gets helicoptered out, it's daytime, and then they take him to the triage to treat him where they pronounce him dead and it's daytime. So it's like probably between 12 and 24 hours. If what you think happened was he was stabbed and was going in and out of consciousness and having dreams about being in purgatory, and then he eventually dies, which I think that's what the storyline is. I think that's what happens, that's how the movie ends, and everything in the movie is just his imagination. I think it's pretty clear, clearly demonstrated. And one of the best ways they demonstrate that, I think, is and you probably picked up on this, let me know, is how many times throughout the movie the lead character Jacob ends up on his back.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 49:26

Did you notice that?

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Yeah, there's yeah, go keep going on that because there's other other clues in there too. But that's yeah, that's definitely Yeah, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_06 49:38

He so the main the main place he's lying on his back is in the jungle where he got stabbed. And when they go to that party at that apartment, it ultimately climaxes to him freaking out and lying on his back on the dance floor with all these people over top of him. And right after that scene, it cuts to him in the jungle at night and he's lying on his back in the jungle. And um then in the tub.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Then in the tub, yep. And that cuts to Vietnam at some point during that, too. I think that might be the one where he starts to see people coming up in the darkness. No, no, no, lights.

SPEAKER_06 50:26

No, after the tub, after the tub, that's the whole sequence is great. Because after the tub, um, there's a slow push in to his face in the tongue. And then the helicopter blade sound starts fading in, and then it cuts to uh, I think what is a POV shot of him in a gurney being lifted into the helicopter so you can see pretty much the silhouette of a helicopter and the sky and he's being pulled up into it. And then the next time he's on um his back is when he gets grabbed by those guys and pulled into a car, and then he fights them in the car, and eventually jumps out of the car and he rolls around in the street and he ends up on his back. And that's Santa Claus, who is looking for donations, grabs his wallet, and then it cuts to Jake lying on his back in the helicopter as he's being taken to triage. And that I want to talk about that Santa Claus sequence real quick. I thought that was great that they did that because he gets taken to the hospital shortly after that, and he's all out of it, and he's talking to the doctors, and the doctors are, you know, asking if he has ID or something like that. And he says, I don't have I don't have my wallet. My wallet got stolen, and they're like, Who stole your wallet? And he's they're like, and he answers, Santa Claus, and they both both the guys pull in his hospital bed, look at him, and then look at each other like he's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:00

Which I think is really good for the audience to experience that because the audience knows what happened, but those doctors in the hospital don't know what happened. But to just hear somebody explain that, it sounds kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Right.

SPEAKER_06 52:19

But so the audience at that point were like, we know he's not crazy. I think that's a great way of adding to the uncertainty as to whether or not he is crazy. They do that a bunch of times throughout the movie really, really well. But they also demonstrate several times that he must be crazy. So it's ultimately just a dream.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Yeah. So a couple things. So you brought up the uh, and this is what I I think's the funniest part of the movie. I I still was I like if you go, if you want to go into the the like, I think when I talked to you before I watched it, you said this movie's hilarious. It is. And I I didn't I try, you know, I'm watching it going like, I'm gonna try to watch this through the lens of this movie's hilarious, and it it just didn't really totally work for me. However, the scene where those dudes grab him and then we go through this car chase. Well, they're immediately driving really fast and squirving all over the place and wrecking into other cars, and there's like no one chasing them or anything like that. There's zero reason they have to be doing that, and there's extras and stuff like running across the street that they're almost running into and all this stuff. It's so crazy that that's the decision that they make is we gotta grab this guy and then drive full speed through the city. It's like why yeah, yeah. So that scene was definitely pretty funny.

SPEAKER_06 54:16

Yeah, that was one of the funny scenes I was talking about.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

But, you know, that's why uh if you do a dream movie, like ultimately it all makes sense because I mean who knows why you dream the things that you dream, you know.

SPEAKER_06 54:31

The other thing I thought was really funny was uh the Pruitt Vince character who plays Paul Gruniger, the guy, the guy who's also losing his mind seeing demons come out of the walls, and he calls Jacob to meet him at some bar that's also connected to like a boxing gym. And so that the scene where Paul is killed cracked me up. Not because he died, obviously, that's horrible and sad, but there's the sequence of events that led up to that. They're walking across the street, going to his car, and Jacob sees a quarter lying on the ground.

SPEAKER_05 55:18

He looks down and he's like, Oh, great.

SPEAKER_06 55:20

And like Paul's getting in his car, and they he turns to see Jacob, and Jacob's like, It's my lucky day, and he goes to pick up the quarter at the same time Paul is turning the ignition, and there's this gust of air that pushes the quarter away from Jacob right before he grabs it, and then he looks all concerned, and he's looking over at Paul, and Paul's looking at him, and they both are looking like real serious, and then right before the car blows up, Paul smiles.

SPEAKER_05 55:53

But the time that lapses in between like Jacob and the explosion is so funny to me because every other movie I've seen that had a car bomb in it, you turn the ignition, and within like a second or two, or pretty quickly, it blows up.

SPEAKER_06 56:12

But there were several seconds put in between just to give Jacob and Paul the opportunity to look at each other, know what's going on, and then Paul to smile and be like, hey, it's cool. Um and then he blows up. Yeah. And and that's the other sequence where Jacob ends up lying on his back. He falls on his back in that sequence, too, and um he cuts the the jungle where he's on his back somewhere, and then it cuts back to the sequence where that chemist is that's another funny scene that cracked me up too. It's like the chemist grabs him and pulls him away from the car that blew up and then just drops him and runs away.

SPEAKER_05 56:59

Right, I know.

SPEAKER_06 57:01

I was like, I was like, well, it was 1990. This was before cell phones, maybe he was like running to get help. So, but I still thought it was funny. It's like, why wouldn't you stay why wouldn't you stay with the guy? Right just almost got blown up.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Yeah, and then the and then he's on his back every time he goes to see Danny Aiello, too. He's on his back. But that's that's a different thing because that's um uh Danny Aiello's helping him get up ultimately.

SPEAKER_06 57:35

Well, he doesn't have the flashbacks to Vietnam until he's on his back. Because he always starts out on his chest with Danny Aiello, and then he gets turned to his side and he doesn't know his left from his right, and then eventually he gets on his back, and then they do a neck adjustment. And whenever he does a neck adjustment, he has a flashback. So I thought that was awesome, and a good way to connect those events, if not, if not pretty obvious that that's what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

Oh yeah, yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, yeah, and then that guy, the chemist dude, is pretty funny, just in the in the dream sense, the fact that so late in the movie he just has to throw out all this information. Do you remember his introduction? What in that part or in the movie? Yeah, he like is in that bar, right? That's not his introduction. Oh, it's not? No. Oh, where yeah, no.

SPEAKER_06 58:47

This is another funny part. So I think it's the first time, it's after the first time Jacob goes to the chiropractor. Danny Aiello's character, Louie, adjusts him, and then it cuts to an alley, and Jacob's just walking.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Oh, that's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_06 59:10

And then a car swerves in, and then he's way behind the car. He just kind of steps out and goes, Look out. And then there's this long sequence of this car for some reason chasing Jacob. Yeah. And he jumps out of the way at the last minute, and then the car slowly drives by, and you see this weird white face looking at him. And then there's a whole sequence of cuts. I want to talk real quick about this scene that kind of indicate different things, like of what that car should be. If you watch that scene back, the driver in that scene isn't wearing a mask. It's just a normal looking guy. And then you see whoever's in the back seat behind the passenger side seat, front seat, looks different in different shots.

unknown 1:00:07

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:07

So in that one slow motion shot, he has this one, he has this weird white face that almost looks like a mask, but kind of doesn't. And then Jacob gets out and he looks and he sees the car trailing off, and you see a shot of what appears to be a guy looking back at him, but he looks like kind of like a bank robber. And like the way he moves, you look, he's moving like a normal guy, like he's getting chased, he's looking at him, and then he looks really quickly to the front of the car. And then it the camera pans to this really weird-looking dude who was previously sitting where I think the white-faced guy was. Right. But he doesn't look like a white-faced guy, he looks like kind of weird, and his head is shaking.

unknown 1:00:56

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:57

And it cuts to a shot inside the car with a kind of like over the shoulder of that weird-looking guy, but he's silhouetted and he's and it's shaking. Right. You know, so really weird sequence. And you see a whole host of different characters in that car indicating it could be this or that or this, you know. And I think it's the same car or a very similar car to what Jacob was later picked up in.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:29

It's just swerving all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Yeah, and they drive the same.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

They just drive pedal to the metal and swerve around and hit whatever on the sides. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I I was thinking maybe that that when it gets to those car chase scenes, maybe that's a moment of like uh adrenaline in his Vietnam body, like trying to stay alive or something like that. Because I I would imagine maybe he's going through these waves of like, you know, probably low breath rate and kind of beats per minute getting low. And then maybe these jolts of like, oh, I'm scared, I don't want to die. And then, like, you know, then that's why those car chase sequences are so chaotic and don't really make any sense because maybe that represents those moments.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:34

They definitely, yeah, they definitely represent fight or flight. Because in the first one, it's flight because he's running away, and in the second one, it's fight because he has this really elaborate fight sequence with these two guys in the back seat, which I thought was really well edited and pretty funny in and of itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

Yeah. Um, it's got that one actor that's in tons of stuff, and so it's funny seeing him. Yeah, I remember him from Ace Ventura. He's like one of the cops in Ace Ventura. Yeah. Yeah. What is that guy's name? I don't know, but he's awesome. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, but so um the opening subway scene, which we haven't talked about at all, um, is similar to, you know, because that's a scene that starts slow, he's in a tunnel, a bright white light all of a sudden starts coming at him. That could represent, you know, walk toward the light, that's death, and he is scared, doesn't want to die, dives out of the way, and then there's a bunch of those ghoul-looking dudes on that vehicle, too, you know, in the windows.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:52

On the train car, everybody is standing up looking out the window with their hands on the window, but they're almost silhouetted. You can't really tell what they look like. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that yeah, there's a lot of symbolism in this movie, and that scene could certainly also symbolize descending into hell because you're going underground, which is another name for a subway tunnel, you know, going into the underworld. And in the script, he was actually supposed to climb down a ladder onto the train tracks, but he doesn't climb down a ladder, he jumps down onto the train tracks. So yeah, there's a lot of religious symbolism throughout the movie. So when I was combing through it, I was trying to identify if every scene had some sort of religious symbol. I don't think every scene does, but that scene, I think the whole setting is a symbol. In the scene before that, in the Vietnam sequence, there's multiple actors wearing religious symbols. I think Ving Ving Rames is wearing a Star of David. Yeah. And there's another character wearing a cross. So after that subway train sequence, he he goes home to his apartment, but there's this scene in the elevator where he looks at a bunch of pennies stuck into a window.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:31

What do you think that that means? I know what you're talking about. I mean that image sticks in my head, but I don't think I ever gave it any thought. I forget if it's one that has a penny in it or if it's an empty one. But yeah, I don't know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:56

Well, I did some research and it would appear Here that it could mean that it's a sign from a loved one, like a deceased loved one, or a sign of like God's love or attention. And you know, there's that phrase penny from heaven. Um that kind of represents that. So that seems correct. Because there's really no explanation of it. It would have been appropriate, I think, instead of him finding a quarter later, to find another penny. That would have made more sense, unless there's some sort of meaning behind a quarter. I don't know if there is. It is 25 pennies, though. So maybe just uh and then Paul blows up, which is a pretty big, pretty big sign.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:58

Maybe if it was a penny, he wouldn't have blown up because it would have legit been a lucky penny. So maybe Jacob just confused what uh like it's not any coin on the ground is lucky. It has to be a penny. And it has to be face up.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:24

Right. It was tails up, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:28

I don't remember actually.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:29

I think the quarter was tails up.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:32

I do like that when it gets sucked away. That's a cool unexpected thing. Yeah. And I think that's why taking those couple extra beats works for that, because it's so unexpected and weird that that quarter just flies out of there. And the way it's shot, or the way it's like put in there, I think it's like step printed or something like that, where it's not super smooth, it's it comes, it's kind of jumpy in slow motion almost the way that it pulls away. It just has a weird feeling to it, and then you get a couple beats to just be like, what the fuck's going on? But also you know that he's gonna blow up probably, and I don't know. I I like it. It is it is weird in terms of the realisticness of you turn you the ignition, and the car just usually blows up, but I don't know. I kind of like it.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:31

Yeah, I mean, I've never seen a car blow up, and I'm unfamiliar with the science behind bombs and how immediate they do blow up. I know in the movie Casino, Robert De Niro starts his car and it's supposed to blow up, but it doesn't, so it makes some kind of mistake. Um, so and it's the it's the movies, you can do whatever you want. And so one of the things that enhanced that scene really well was the sound design because immediately when that gust of air comes out and I think pushes that quarter, you hear the rush of the wind or the air, and then everything else is gone, and it's really quiet in those seconds before he blows up. So that whole sequence was really well done. And so I think there continues to be obviously religious references and symbols throughout the movie. Um, were there any others that you picked up on?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:33

Yeah, I mean, they're all over the place. Some places where I don't even know exactly why, because he gets in a cab pretty late in the movie uh to take him home, I think for his last sequence at home, and he's just riding in the cab, and it cuts to him looking kind of at the like the meter in the cab, but on the left side there's a cross hanging there. So he's in the cab with somebody with a cross, and then he has a flashback, I believe. That might be when he realizes that one of his own people stabbed him. I can't remember what his flashback is there, but I know it's late in the movie, so it might be that that portion. But anyway, I did I wanted to just go back to the fact that you got that chemist dude to come in super late in the movie, have that big scene where he explains pretty much like how everything went down and why everything went down. But if that's just Jacob dreaming, it's like not necessarily the truth, you know. It's just funny that he would have this big exposition scene in his death dream. It's like, well, I know it's all this weird hellish dream stuff about me not accepting my own death, but I also have to have a like a reason for all of these events that happened in my death dream to make that story make sense. Because I need to clear all those bits and pieces up before I can die.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:36

Yeah, yeah, that's the scene where he explains to him what the ladder is.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:41

A nickname for a drug he developed for the army, just and he described it as a fast trip straight down the ladder, right to the primal fear, right to the base of anger. I think the whole scene is ultimately just another mislead to keep the audience guessing, but I read somewhere that that wasn't supposed to be the final scene that included the chemist. There was supposed to be another scene with the chemist where he ends up getting decapitated. Yeah. And I think there were I read that there were a total of four scenes, like another 20 minutes of the movie, that ultimately got removed because test audience, test audiences said that the movie was too overwhelming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:31

So yeah, I think it's the right choice. I don't think it needed any more of that stuff. Like it's already too much for me.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:41

Yeah. And you could make the case that Jacob and the chemist walking around some industrial area by the river as the chemist explains to him what's going on is completely unnecessary.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

Yeah, it's it is weird. Yeah. If you accept the premise that he never made it out of Vietnam. And so none of this stuff happened. Like him meeting up with all his boys didn't happen, and this chemist following him around. Yeah is made up in his hit brain, too. So I mean, the um the one of the more interesting things that blur the lines in a really cool way is when he goes into the Hellscape hospital on the deepest level, Jezebel's there as like a nurse. Right. And that in a way almost makes some sort of weird sense. Like if he went to a hospital tent and there just was a woman nurse there that looked like her, that could have triggered this whole fantasy sequence of him like getting out of Vietnam, meeting this other girl that's not his wife, and whatever, you know. I mean, I don't know where the wife and kids come in either, you know, but it's kind of like what do you mean where they come in? I don't I don't know where they come in. Like, is he married before he went to Vietnam? Yeah, like so the first scene with is the wife and the kids all a figment of his imagination? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:34

No, I think I think Sarah and the kids are or were his family prior to going to Vietnam.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:42

But they wouldn't be that old, like he's not old enough to be in Vietnam and have, you know, 11, 12-year-old kids.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:57

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

But they got older.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:02

So because it's 19.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:04

Right, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

He could that's what I'm saying. He could have had he could have had two little babies and she was pregnant with Eli when he went to Vietnam, maybe something like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:18

Or maybe they were kids from maybe they were kids from a previous marriage.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:22

Right. Well, I mean, oh, you mean she had those kids.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:27

I'm just injecting information that is not a movie.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:32

So that it makes sense because you're right, it doesn't make sense that he has kids that old. And what another interesting, another interesting thing is in the opening Vietnam sequence, it says it's October 6th, 1971, in the Mekong Delta. So just the title sequence straight up tells you this is Vietnam. And then later the chemist says, No, it was an experiment in Thailand. Thailand, right? And I think his lawyer, played by Jason Alexander, says the same thing. But when he gets picked up at that by that taxi at the at the end, the first close-up shot in that is of the cabbie's license. And there's an expiration date on it that says I think May 31st, 1972, which is seven months later. So it's unclear when all the front story takes place. I mean, obviously it's all just a death dream, but what year is that supposed to be? Is it just supposed to be 71, 72? Or is it supposed to be around when the movie was released?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

It's really Yeah, it definitely seems like late 80s or something like that, but I couldn't say for sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:53

Yeah, I didn't watch the movie really with it in mind to pinpoint the time period.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:00

Yeah. But it could be 70s.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:03

I suppose so. I mean, yeah. If you think about the look of the cab, I don't know if there were cabs like that in the 80s, late 80s. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:14

But I don't know. I really, I really have no idea. To me, it had it had an 80s, 90s vibe, but that could have been just because that was the cinematography.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:23

Right. Yeah. That's why I feel like I think it's, you know, when I when I think about that dance party sequence, which we definitely need to talk about that. We gotta rush through a couple other things here real quick, but um, when I think about that scene, it doesn't scream 70s to me for some reason, but um, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:47

The album Hell by James Brown was released in 1974, and in that party sequence, they play the track My Thing. So Right. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:58

So that sequence, we need to talk about that because that's huge in this movie.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:03

So it has to be at least 1974. Right. Because that song wasn't released, so which would mean that that cabbie's license is expired and he's driving with an expired license, which would make sense because Jacob's in purgatory.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

Nice. Chalk that one up to it tracks. It makes sense.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:33

It tracks, it makes sense. What were we gonna say?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:38

Yeah, so that party scene. Yes, we just can't not talk about that. Yep. That's that's a huge scene. Yep. It's weird how it gets into it because I think they're in bed having some dialogue about something.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:54

Yeah, so this is when Jake initially reveals to Jezebel that he's seeing things that aren't human, and she pretty much completely deflects. She kind of laughs at him at first, she's hugging him, uh-huh, and then she stops hugging him and then kind of lays behind him, and then in this very serious and kind of creepy voice says, What were they, Jake? And then he tries to explain himself, and she doesn't even really listen to him. She just asks him, Do you still love me? While she's like running her fingernails down his back. Right. So it's a very bizarre scene, and then it just immediately cuts to them at a party somewhere in an apartment building.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:42

There's a lot of religious symbols in this scene. So we can go through those.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:50

There's a lot of or we can like flirtatious energy in that whole sequence as well.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:55

Yeah, it starts with like some woman literally hanging off of him.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:01

Yeah. Flirting with him. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

Flirting with him. Then he goes up the stairs to the psychic. Yep. And there's even a girl that walks by and is like, you should do it, Jake. She's fun, or something like that. And then she's super flirtatious with him.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:21

The psychic. You know.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:23

Yeah. And so what do you think about all of that stuff?

SPEAKER_06 1:20:29

Yeah. So in that scene, there is also well, specifically, what I think about all of those female characters flirting with Jacob is that they are tempting him to stay exactly where he is. Because if he stays where he is, he's not accepting his death. And if he's not accepting his death, he's going to see everyone as a devil. And he's gonna descend down the ladder to greater depths of hell. So yeah, and so the temptations are just a way to keep him kind of distracted from doing primarily what he's gotta do. Like getting him keeping him distracted from the choice he needs to make. And accept the truth.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:27

Yeah, there's an interesting thing about the psychic because he goes upstairs to meet her. Right. So there's a potential that she's not a demon, you know, like she's something else. Maybe something. So if you look at everybody as a spectrum of demons to angels, right, she's she could be on the slightly on the angel side.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:56

Well, we've kind of established that it's really all from Jacob's perspective. So they can be either or depending upon like what he's doing and how he's feeling and thinking, right? And so he is you, it's a good point. He is ascending the stairs where he when he meets her, and she does express to him that he is dead, according to the wrinkles on his hand. And so that's interesting. That whole scene, though, has some other interesting symbols. After he gets away from that girl who's flirting with him when the scene starts, he goes to the refrigerator to get a drink, and there's a goat head in the uh in the refrigerator just sitting there. Right. And so goatheads a symbol of sin. Um, but it also kind of represents rebirth and renewal in other religion in certain religions. So that kind of has like a dual meaning depending upon the the religion. Um and then he leaves that refrigerator, and then he's walking past a birdcage with a blanket over it, and he pulls back the blanket, and there's a blackbird in there. And blackbirds in religion symbolize good and bad omens. And in certain contexts, they represent death and temptation. So depending upon the context of the situation, um, again, it can represent different things. Um, but one of the main things, at least in Christianity, is it represents temptation and sin, which runs parallel to what's going on in that scene with all the flirtation. And there's another one that's more obscure that I don't know if it means anything, but when Jacob goes back to the dance floor after he meets the psychic, this one guy remarks about the size of his shoes. He says something about, oh, you got a size 13, you're gonna have a hard time dancing in those. And so I was curious, I was like, I wonder if the number 13 means anything. And in some Christian traditions, uh 13 can mean sin and rebellion. Um, I mean, Judas was the 13th uh disciple and he betrayed Jesus. And but you know, in other religions it can represent mercy. And so it seems like a bizarre line to just throw out there without it meaning something. So maybe it's something else, but um at the very least, there is some religious significance behind the number 13.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:06

Yeah, and I think this movie they it seems well thought out. So I don't I don't think there's it doesn't seem to have a lot of kind of lucky accidents or something. Like everything seems to be pretty meticulously planned and placed.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:24

Yeah, one of the more I would agree with that, and one of the more interesting potential religious symbols was later in the movie. So after I unless you want to talk more about that apartment scene.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:38

Well, I mean, then you just have the the the peak of it where he goes out to dance, and then he's just sort of like, eh, I'm not really down with this, and then she's just like, All right, that's fine. I'll just get down with this dude that's behind me. Yeah. And then that dude turns out to be some big winged beast with a huge tail that eventually throws a big giant tooth or something through her mouth.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:09

Well, I think before he turns into this huge winged demon, yeah, I think he's starting to have sex with Jezebel on the dance floor, and then gradually you see these devil appendages kind of appear in and around her until some kind of what I would imagine is a horn goes right through her mouth. And then yeah, which is the peak, which is the peak of the scene, which knocks Jake up on his back, and everybody's standing over top of him while he's screaming. And then it cuts the jungle again where he's lying on his back. Then it goes through the the uh the sequence where he's in the bathtub where he's having that fever of 106 where they put him in the bathtub and pour a bunch of ice into him. He has like a dream within a dream kind of thing. Um I love that part. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, and so again, he's probably dying and his body's getting cold. And then there's a scene after he gets through that, and the doctor's like, you must have friends in high places, and cuts back to the jungle where they're carrying him on a stretcher through the woods, um, goes back to the apartment again, and the apartment that scene starts with a shot on a really small six inch television television screen, and it's black and white, and there's a guy in the screen talking, and he says, I was gonna choose three, but then I chose two because she said one over one, which means one with an addition of one, which is two, and I think only an artist. Would know that. And if you kind of break that down, it makes no sense. You know, because it's like one over one is not one with an addition of one. One over one is just one. You know, because it's like one divided by one is one. That's another way of saying one over one. And so I was wondering what that could mean. And the only thing I could think of was it could be a call to in Christianity, the Holy Trinity, which is three, and one over one, which is actually just one, could mean like only one God, because Christianity is professes to be monotheistic. And so by saying two, which is wrong, it could be like the devil misleading us or referencing there isn't only one. According to the devil, there is a second, and that's Satan. So I don't know what all that really meant. That's just where my thoughts were led after I was trying to break it down. That's awesome. Because then it pans to the left and it just continues with the scene with the scene. And that whole scene, Jake is in bed lying on his back. And I think Jezebel's talking to him.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:25

Yeah, man. Then the only other thing I can think of is you got Macaulay Culkin up in there. We get the resolution of Jacob's son, Eli, um getting hit by a truck. That's where the bike comes in. Jacob's son is not called Eli. Uh Elijah. Nope. Right? Nope. Oh.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:55

Gabriel.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:56

What is it? Oh no. He has a son, Gabriel.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:00

The Macaulay. Oh, I'm sorry. I misheard you. You said who was Eli?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:06

I thought I thought um uh Macaulay was Eli. No, Macaulay's Gabe. Is that right? Uh they call him Gabe. Yeah, hold on. I'm checking here. IMDB doesn't have Macaulay as like anywhere near the top. I thought he would be all up in there.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:34

It was his first movie, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:36

Yeah, he's way down. Lewis Black is in there. Really? I don't know if you saw him, yeah. He has one line in the in the tub scene dumping ice on uh Jacob.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:53

Is he the one who says you have friends that must have friends in high places?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:57

Maybe. Yeah, he says like one. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I don't know. I just looked it up on the the freaking internet. Okay, so you're right. It's Gabe. But I'm sure one of the kids is Elijah, or I don't know why I s I because I took notes. And when they were talking about his son, like I took notes down that it Oh, there is an Eli.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:27

Yeah, you're right. Eli is uh played by BJ Donaldson. Um it doesn't say there's no picture of the guy. I don't know who it must be one of his kids.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:43

Yeah, I so I thought it would be yeah, I I thought it would be um Eli because Elijah is a is a critical character in the Jezebels.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:58

Well, I think it's more appropriate, I think it is more appropriate considering that Jesse in Jacob's ladder is not a primary character, that it would be Gabriel because he's trying to carry a message to Jacob, basically saying, Hey, you're dead, come with me, which he eventually does at the end of the movie. Yeah. Takes him by hand by the hand and carries, takes him up the stairs, white out, go to title about the Vietnam War and drugging soldiers. Yep. Just to confuse you a little bit more about what actually happened in this movie, actually, it doesn't white out to that title sequence it whiteouts to the triage where Jacob is pronounced dead, and then it goes to the title.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:52

So yeah, the um then the only other thing that I think needs to be mentioned is Jason Alexander's character as a lawyer.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:10

Yeah, is this pre is this pre-Seinfeld?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:13

It would be if Seinfeld's out, it would be at the very beginning, I would guess. But man, that character is crazy. That part is hilarious. I'll give you that. Once he shows up in the movie, that's non-stop funny shit. Everything that he does is pretty hilarious. In the um, in the initial scene where the all the guys are meeting him to hopefully procur procure him as uh their lawyer. Yeah. He's like everything he does from like chewing Fritos.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:58

He offers the guys Fritos, they turn him down, and he kind of just gives like this whatever kind of look.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:06

It's like he shows up being like, yo, Jacob's ladder. This movie's supposed to be a flat out comedy, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:34:17

Yeah, he's this skeptical lawyer who's really not that interested in doing his job, and he's confronted with all these soldiers with some sort of bizarre conspiracy, and he's like, all right, whatever, I'll look into it. And yeah, it's pretty damn funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:40

I guess that's one of those moments where they say it's a scary, pretty scary, disturbing movie. You need a moment of comic comic relief to ease the tension or something like that. That's a good idea. It's it somewhat feels out of place, but I don't know. I I like it.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:01

Yeah, the only other thoughts I have about the movie, perhaps my final thoughts are Danny Aiello, his performance was pretty great. And he quotes this German Catholic in the movie named Meister Eckhart, which basically s and explicitly summarizes the choice that Jacob needs to make.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:31

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:32

And I thought it was, you know, pretty perfect. Um and the only other thing that I was curious about was whether or not Jacob's ladder was had any historical significance prior to the movie. And it does predate the movie, the idea, and supposedly it originates in the Bible, in the book of Genesis.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:15

And what's it referenced to there?

SPEAKER_06 1:36:19

So um, so in in the Bible, the character Jacob sees a ladder with angels and with angels that are ascending and descending. And it's supposed to symbolize the connection between earth and heaven. But there's no mention, as far as I understand, about hell. So this movie kind of spins it. We're like, well, what if you go further down the ladder? You go to hell, right? So that's what it does. Mm-hmm. So if you want to brush up on the choice that Jacob had to make, go pick yourself up some Meister Eckhart, the German Catholic priest and theologian.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:11

Yeah, and then if you want a musical track that goes along with it too, uh, back in the 80s, Bruce Hornsby wrote a song called Jacob's Ladder and gave it to Huey Lewis, who put that on his album four.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:30

Oh, really? Yeah. That's pretty cool. Mm-hmm. Do you have any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:42

Uh yeah, I just um I was hit with, especially when we're when you're talking about that uh final summation that Danny Aiello's character character lays out. I feel like that was pretty influential to me at a young age. Because I feel like I took the lesson from that and it did influence how, like, in some way, how I view life. I think we kind of even added it into our lost movie, The Hint Into Button, where there's key, two key lines that are it's all how you see it, or something like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:32

Well, there's other obscure connections to some of the short movies we made a long time ago, but that's a conversation for another episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:45

So, do you think that quote of Danny Danny Aiello in Jacob's Ladder is something that you still believe in?

SPEAKER_01 1:38:55

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:59

Let me read it back to you.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:02

And let me know if you believe this verbatim.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:09

So Louie, played by Danny Aiello, he's a chiropractor, and he's adjusting Jake's back. And Jake explains to Louis that he was in hell. And Louis says, Have you ever heard of Meister Eckhart? And he said, Eckhart saw hell too. You know what he said? He said, The only thing that burns in hell is the part of you that won't let go of your life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul. So the way he sees it, if you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth. It's just a matter of how you look at it. That's all.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:12

So are you asking if I believe that there's devils and angels?

SPEAKER_06 1:40:20

I was asking if you still believe in this quote verbatim as a moral guideline in your life as an adult.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:38

I guess what I would say is that in r in the respect of looking at fear and fear of death, I think it's helpful to let go sometimes in a way that can allow you to not be so afraid. Then you can look at all these moments in a positive light.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:13

Do you think this quote represents a form of acceptance?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:21

I think so.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:24

Because that's what I read into it, and I think that's a really helpful thing. And it's also probably a topic of another episode. That is how does one go through a process of acceptance? Because Jacob he visually it's represented that he does, you know, he starts going through his memories, you know, he's opening up boxes, he's looking at old photos, old documents, you know, and he makes a decision to go to his old home in Brooklyn. He's meet by Sam, the doorman, who greets him as Dr. Singer. And he says, You haven't been here in a while, and lets him in, and then as he's walking past him, he looks at him all weird. Like he's really concerned. And then, you know, it's nighttime, it's raining out. Jacob goes into the living room, sits down, and then there's this montage of him just sitting there, all the sound fades out, and a heartbeat sound comes in, and it starts cutting to shots of Jake with his family. And it cuts to black and then back and forth to shots of his family. They kind of have an eight millimeter look to them. Right. And then and then it cuts to Jake in the same room, but it's daytime, and it's light out, and then his son Gabe is there. Just I think he's playing some sort of music box. I don't know what song he's playing on the music box, but then Gabe tells him not to worry and like takes him up the stairs, and then we white out. So it's like you kind of see him going through this process process of acceptance.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:29

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:30

Kind of, but is he really going through a process of acceptance? Or is he just being forced to accept the situation because you know, some messenger of God is coming to him and just kind of pulling, physically pulling him. But that's just supposed to represent him kind of letting go, or maybe his just body giving up because in the next one.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:57

Yeah, because the heartbeat slows down and stops.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:02

You know, um, and you know, I look at him going to that hotel as that's definitely more of a metaphorical place, um, as opposed to him.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:18

Oh, yeah, it's getting in a cat. Well, that's what I'm saying. It's yeah, it's all metaphorical because he's not when he's like opening up boxes and going through old photos and his discharge papers in the military and notes from his son. I mean, all of that, if you believe the storyline that it's a death dream, or a not even a death dream, but a dying dream, um then it's all just memory.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:44

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:44

Or or some kind of nightmare, like the mind processing its own contents in this fight to stay alive and keep the body going.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:54

Right. Because like that, when he gets into that cab and then gets out and he's at the hotel, he's back in his army fatigues or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:03

Yeah. I guess what I'm saying, so what I'm what I'm getting at is going through the psychological process of acceptance. I'm not sure that that is well represented in the movie. I think that there is other things that one does. I mean, he is processing a lot of emotion, a lot of hard emotion. And that's depicted in Tim Robbins' performance. Yeah. And that's might be really the only way to do it, you know, is just to feel your way to that point. Because what are you feeling? You're feeling all the fear, you're feeling all the anger, you're feeling all the sadness from losing not just your life, but all your connections to what you love in that life. And so that's what the whole movie is. It's just he's going through all of those emotions constantly.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:01

And so the movie's gotta be just this, it's just basically this visual portrayal of what the emotions look like.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:13

Yeah.

unknown 1:46:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:14

And I think I think it does it really, really well. I agree. You know, because it's it's a lot of stuff that hasn't happened. But you know, it's almost like imagining what life it could have been. Right. And it's just weird how it's imagining losing a kid and what that would be like, and losing your first wife, and then moving on to some more exotic girlfriend or wife that maybe you were infatuated by at some point. You know, it's like all it's like it's kind of interesting how it is potentially going through an imagination of what your life could have been had you not got stabbed and died.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:11

Right. You know, you know, and but why in the dream world is he a postman? You know, what what do postmen do? They deliver messages, right? And they receive messages. So, which is ultimately what Gabriel does as an archangel, he's a messenger of God. So, you know, maybe he's just one of these guys that he has to receive messages, but you know, you know, if you're a believer in this religious tradition, maybe you believe everyone can do both. And like, oh yeah, he can definitely if he can get to the next level, he can become an angel and he can actually deliver messages too, because he's a postman. He's a post he's a postman angel. Anyway, do you have any other thoughts about Jacob's ladder?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:08

I don't think so. I think that covers it pretty well. I think so too. Interesting movie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:17

Yeah. Very interesting movie and good talk.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:24

Um, are you an Adrian Line file?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:30

Hmm. I don't know if at this point I could go that far. As I think about the movies, I like his movies.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:41

Um are you a Jeff are you a Jeffrey Kimball file?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:46

Definitely a Kimball file. Me too. I would say I'm a Jacobs ladder file. Like, I like to descend the ladder every once in a while.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:03

Yeah. Yeah. Right to the final prayer, fear, the base of anger. You like to do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:49:12

Yeah, I would say if there could be a cut of this movie somehow that could get rid of the Vietnam stuff. I I just can't, I don't know if that would totally work because there kind of has to be some story there, I think.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:26

But well, I think a sequel can be made. He has sons, and one of them is called Eli. We can call it Elijah's Ladder.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:35

Elijah's Jacob's Ladder. Yeah. Definitely I'd be interested in like a whole series of Jacob's Ladder. You know, I mean, there's other movies, like I said earlier, that are kind of in that sense. Like they they say Top Gun Maverick is a Jacob's Ladder scenario movie.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:59

Well, there's also Other movies that touch on acceptance of death, and that is a running theme in the writer's filmography. So what's his name? Bruce Joel Rubin. He wrote Ghost with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. And he wrote My Life with Michael Keaton.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:30

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:31

And I remember really liking My Life when I saw it long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:38

Cool. I don't think I've ever seen that movie.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:41

Okay. We might have to go file it one day.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:45

Yeah. Did you say, are you a line file? Or do you like to ascend or descend the ladder?

SPEAKER_06 1:50:58

I am not a line file. I did like Jacob's ladder. I don't know if I love it. I am a Kimball file. I love the or I love the cinematography of this movie. And I think that I appreciate the potential growth from descending the ladder. And I would say I like that, but I can't say I particularly enjoy descending the ladder in and of itself. It's more the effect. If you know I I can get through it. And I can always get through it. Right? So you don't want to descend too far. Yeah. Because you end up on a hospital bed bumping into body parts.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:00

And see and looking at guys with weird shaking heads, which we didn't even talk about.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:07

Yeah. I mean, we did in the one scene of that guy was in the car. Right. And then he shows up a couple times later. Right. He's like kind of the last final mini boss in the horror side of this movie. I think he pops up one last time just randomly in a room or something like that. And Jacob's like, no, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to fuck around with these dudes anymore.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:31

Oh, that's when he's going through the process of acceptance. Right. Yeah. He's like, he thought he that's a great shot, by the way. Yeah. Because he looks in the mirror and he sees a blurry or out of focus kid skipping through the house. And then he calls out to Gabe and pushes the mirror to see if he can see him. And he pushes the mirror and he sees one of those freaks with the sh real fast shaking heads and that weird sound effect that's supposed to freak you out. So is that the mini boss you talked about?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:00

That's the last one. You know, you know how in horror movies they always like you kill the bad guy, and then he's always got to pop up one more time, and then they they get rid of him real quick. That's kind of like the version of that. You think you're you think you're out of the woods, you've been through the the basement of this hospital and seen all the bloody limbs and all that stuff, and you got through that, and then just one last guy pops out is like, don't forget, scary shit. And he's like, ah he quickly he's like, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm walking up this the staircase into the light.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:38

Well, on that note, you want to call this a rap?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:43

That's a rap.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:45

All righty. Take account of your memories and what you love. Or rather, go file it.