Expelled From 3 Kindergartens — Then Built an Empire | David Segal, Inside Aesthetics

David Segal, along with co-host Dr. Jake Sloane, are the voices behind Inside Aesthetics — the most listened-to podcast in the industry, with over 2.4 million listens across 100+ countries. But fewer people know the story behind David: expelled from three kindergartens before age five, he went on to build and sell some of Australia's biggest aesthetic businesses before becoming a mentor to clinic owners worldwide.

This one goes deeper than business: building clinics from cold calls and an empty room, why most owners don't know their own numbers, the legal battle that nearly broke him, why he sold it all, and a closing thought experiment on whether struggle is essential to being human.

A conversation about identity, resilience, and what actually matters once the business is built.

Dr. Lonny Green | The Ninja Injector

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Hosted by: Lonny Green, MD – injector, educator, and advocate for real, unfiltered conversations in aesthetics.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

I was someone that didn't do very well at school. I suffered with ADHD and didn't really conform to the traditional educational system. I got expelled from three kindergartens when I was I was like under five years old.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Who is David Sigar?

SPEAKER_03 0:14

I was pretty entrepreneurial. I always worked hard, always had jobs, always wanted to make money. I had like a car washing business when I was very young in my street ten years ago. You could like throw a dart in any direction and open up a clinic and be successful within very short space of time. I remember the first days of Cosmos, I was just basically cold calling these people saying, like, you know, Dr. Ajakar and I have started a clinic again here in Double Bay, and you know, we'd love to see you. So we were sitting on the floor before we even had furniture just trying to get patients. And then from there, you probably know the rest. It was just um a series of meeting different people and working at laser clinics and starting the surgical business. It's been a wild ride. A lot of the people I talk to don't know their numbers, so they don't know they judge the success of their business by how much money's in their bank account. A lot of people listen to this. If I asked them how much money do you need to make every week to not lose money, I'm sure a lot of them wouldn't be able to answer the question. You know, how many things do you actually need? How much money do you need in the bank account? What's important to you? How many good years do you have of time on this planet?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

What would you say top one or two things that most businesses in Medspa could do now that would take them to a different level, a higher level?

SPEAKER_03 1:24

One of the things that I learned was who is David Stigal? Um that's that's like uh interesting question. In what in what in what terms? Like who am I as a person? What interests me? What can we be more specific with who I am?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

No, the answer is no. I can't I I'm not gonna be more specific. I want you to answer who is David Sigar?

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Who is David Sigar? Uh he is a 43-year-old male from Sydney that enjoys bonsai, playing the drums, spending time with my family and my friends, and somehow ended up in this crazy mental industry about 20 years ago through just weird situations and happenstance. And uh here we are. That that's basically I'm a pretty simple, I'm a pretty simple guy that ended up in this crazy industry, and it's been a wild ride ever since.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Okay, well that that's that's halfway decent. Uh because because there's there's not much on you actually out there if you want to know the truth, but there is a little bit, and that's pretty much what I already know. So let me ask you let me ask you my second question.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Who is David Sagal?

SPEAKER_03 2:42

I I you know what, maybe I don't even know the answers to that question myself.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

That's fair. You you you think you've been learning the answers?

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Um, I think that's what life's all about, isn't it? Really? It's uh a journey of discovery and figuring out who you are and dealing with life experiences and hopefully growing from those experiences. And I think by the time you figure it all out, uh maybe it's all over. I don't I really don't know. It's uh it depends on what day of the week you ask me.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

All right. What what would you say to someone who is asking you to describe yourself, but not in terms of the mechanics and logistics of liking bonsai, but more like all right, so tell me about yourself. We you've obviously been on the planet for a while. What's going on? Who who are you?

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Um I'm not really too sure how to how to answer that question, to be honest with you. Fair. Um because I'm not I'm not exactly sure what information you're asking for. You're looking for some sort of deep philosophical response or uh no, it doesn't have to be deep.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Uh, but I'm I'm just curious. I like for instance, what's your uh if you have one, uh sort of a origin story? I I get it that you kind of fell into this, but uh what was before Cosmos Clinic?

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Okay, so prior to Cosmos, I had worked in the fitness and health or the health and fitness industry for many years, and that was almost by accident as well, because I I I was someone that didn't do very well at school. I suffered with ADHD and didn't really conform to the traditional educational system, and so uh I I sort of had a great time at school uh with friends and and socializing and doing lots of things that I probably shouldn't have been doing, and uh but uh academically not so much. I had certain subjects that I liked doing, like woodwork and then things with my hands, music. Um, but uh always found myself getting in trouble. I got expelled from three kindergartens when I was like under five years old. So that was interesting. Um spent a lot of time in the water growing up, growing up uh on the beaches of Sydney, so spent a lot of time surfing when I was young, playing a lot of sports, um, always getting up to mischief, nothing too severe, but uh just I don't know, just always looking for stimulus, I think. I think that's kind of what it was all about. And um yeah, left school, didn't know really what I wanted to do, um, had a lot of odds. I always worked hard, always had always had jobs, always wanted to make money. I had like a car washing business when I was very young in my street and had people on memberships and packages and all this, all this kind of stuff. And I was young. So I was always sorry. Did you really like that's yeah, yeah, I was pretty, I was pretty entrepreneurial when it came to when I knew that I needed to make money to do and get things in life that I that I thought I wanted and needed, I was pretty motivated. So when I find something that I want to do, I'm pretty good at it because I'm pretty determined. But if you ask me to do something I don't want to do, even to this day I find it very difficult to do those things. So I I guess for me, the whole journey of of life and and discovering what makes me tick is just following what it is that I really like to do. Because if I'm not, if I'm not, then I'm just not gonna be good at it. And I'm just not gonna have the patience or the perseverance to do what needs to be done. So yeah, after leaving school, somehow got into a university and and attempted, um, did business, did a business degree, but again, that was a complete waste of time for me. Went and studied to become a mortgage broker. Um, then I finally fell fell into the health and fitness industry because I like training, I like going to the gym. So I started working for for uh for one of the big uh health chain clubs over here called Fitness First and went through some pretty rigorous sales training and then did that for a number of years and then started managing their clubs. And I was managing, sorry, started managing their clubs when I was in my early 20s. And one of the members that I signed up, he and I became quite friendly and he was in the skincare business. And this was before cosmetic lasers were really in even in Australia in any meaningful way. I think there might have been a few around, but you know, maybe half a dozen in in the whole city. It was a really new concept. And so he wanted to go overseas and import lasers from China and sell them to doctors and and nurses here in Australia. So we started a business together. So I was flying over to China. This is before the Beijing, Beijing Olympics, and meeting with factories over there, and somehow we managed to make it work. We sold a ton of lasers and uh set up a a lot of relationships. I'm still I'm still in touch with those people today. And um, but the business went broke because we weren't we didn't allow for taxes, so we we we ran out of money pretty quick once the uh tax department started uh knocking on the door and asking for their share of the money. So that that didn't go well, but uh we I had set up a lot of relationships, and one of the doctors that I sold a device to, the the clinic that he was working at, I sold a device to. He and I became good friends, and he was the doctor that went on, or we went on to start Cosmos Clinic together. Um, there was uh a large cosmetic facility here in Sydney, I think it was the largest in the southern hemisphere. It was huge. I had a licensed day facility in there. There was a plastic surgeon, a number of injectors, and you know, everyone that came in was wearing sunglasses, paying cash. It was it was this was like back in 200 probably five, 2004. So it was still pretty pretty new. Like there wasn't much going on in the aesthetic space, it was really underground and only for very well wealthy people. And um, there was a financier that was in charge that had started that business, and he stole 13 or 14 million dollars from the business and then disappeared overseas and the and the and the whole company collapsed. And so he and I, the doctor that I that I became friendly with, we went to the liquidator. We we somehow managed to get the patient files because he was the doctor that was looking after them and for continuity continuity of care and so on. So we somehow managed to get these patient files. And I remember the first days of with Cosmos, I was just basically cold calling these people saying, I, you know, Dr. Dr. Ajarka and I have started a clinic again here in Double Bay, and you know, we'd love to see you. So we were sitting on the floor before we even had furniture, just trying to get patients to come in, and and that's kind of really how it all how it all started. And then from there you probably know the rest. It was just um a series of meeting different people and working at laser clinics and starting the surgical business, which also had some major issues as well. So it's been it's been a wild ride, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah. You know, I'm I'm really curious because I I've talked to a number of people now with with this podcast and uh your early beginnings that you talked to me about, you know, not being well academically, ADHD, all that kind of stuff. I I'm curious, uh, you know, did you have siblings? Was because I've heard stories of my parents understood and wanted me to live my dream, or it didn't go so well at home, or what was that like?

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Uh yeah, well, I had I had a brother, I have a brother who's the opposite to me. So he's uh he was very he did very well at school. He was not a troublesome child, he was quite the model child, to be honest with you. He he everything sort of seemed to fall in place for him, and he sort of did pretty well at school and went to university and so on. Um yeah, childhood at at home was challenging because I was I was a handful, and my dad, who was quite big on going to university, getting a career, getting mortgage, buying a house. Um, yeah, we we we had some interesting moments and some pretty heated heated uh arguments in the house. And I I think they were quite worried about me for a long time because I was either gonna make it or I was gonna end up on gonna end up in jail or in the street or something. Like it was uh I think there were some pretty scary times there for them, and it was always difficult for me because my brother Dan was always uh you know, he just seemed to sail through life, and every every possible challenge that that could present itself, I somehow managed to run into. Uh usually just through my own stupidity or or bad decision making. It wasn't like I had some sort of curse on me, it was just it was just consistent poor decision making.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Yeah. What's the age difference between you and your brother?

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Uh three years. So not much.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

I'm curious with that kind of dichotomy, uh, were you more like hated each other, loved each other, got along, didn't get along? Because that's a pretty big dichotomy.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

Yeah. Uh both, I think love and hate. I I think the the relationship with siblings is always complicated. I think that um when you're young, you tend to fight a lot. Um, but no one could pick on him except me. So it's still, even though I gave him hell, uh, that was my job. If anyone else tried to give him hell, then you know I wasn't too happy about that. But I as we've gotten older, we've become a lot closer. Um, because there's a lot, there are a lot of similarities there. And um, yeah, we we sort of we bounce off each other quite well. He's he's very, very artistically inclined. I am too to an extent, but he's he's more so he's really into food and he's a graphic designer and he's got a you know a pretty different outlook on life to me as well. Um he he's not really too money focused, and I'm becoming less of that as I get older, but he's he's um maybe he's got the right idea, he's more focused on experiences and and um and life and less about collecting things, and and that's been a bit of a paradigm shift for me over the last couple of years, as well as stepping back from from that a little bit and and working out what's important.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah. Has that been intentional or just kind of happened?

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Well, we had I don't know how you know how closely you followed the story, but we we I had a pretty big um conflict with the people that bought the businesses of the franchise clinics that I owned. Yeah. Um so my my best friend started that business and sold it for a bucket of money, and it was uh bought up by a large private equity firm from the United States called KKR.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've got barbarians at the gate.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Yeah, that that's them, yeah. So um all the rumors are true. Um and so myself and a couple of other people who came from the first generation of of franchisees that never wanted to be franchisees, we joined the business with the intention of being just a joint venture business partner with the with the founders. Um we kind of got coerced into this franchise model and it went well for a while, but then you get the wrong owners on board, the business grows to a certain scale. And um you attract the wrong people, um, the wrong people for that business. And so we in engaged in a fairly heavy dispute with those guys for about two and a half years because we caught them doing some pretty, in our opinion, some pretty um unethical, potentially illegal, um, allegedly, uh illegal things in relation to the way the business was run. And unfortunately, when you're up against an enemy of that size with that amount of money and legal resources, sometimes it doesn't even matter if the law's on your side or not, they've got the capacity to to run you through that legal system to drain you of of resources and to make your life difficult. So we had to employ strategies um that made their life difficult without going into too much detail. And that was uh that it went on longer than it should have. And I think because they underestimated who a few of us were, I think that the the advice they were getting was that franchisees are fairly easy to to um rule over, they're fairly easy to sort of um scare and and to sort of just ignore the situation rather than dealing with it. And there was a few of us who didn't come from franchise world, we'd been in the industry for a long time, we had connections and resources, and we were prepared to do what needed to be done to get to a fair outcome, and so it took them a long time to realize that this wasn't going to go away, but eventually we got there, and so that was a very stressful period. So I was looking basically also dealing with an enemy like that, but then trying to work with 50 other, you know, 30 or 50 other franchisees who don't come from business backgrounds, who have more, you know, had their houses on the line, their livelihoods on the line, and there was a lot of hand holding, the phone just never stopped. Wow. Um, dealing with them was actually more stressful than dealing with KKR, to be honest with you. Wow. But eventually we got the deal done, and they bought out a whole heap of clinics, and the business has continued since we left to to go down the wrong path because of just I think poor leadership and different motivations for how they want to run business. Um, but my dad, my dad was a lawyer, and um he worked with us uh worked with us on that case, and it was his last case because he actually died of cancer um two years ago, the end of this month. And it was um his last big case, and we we worked together on that, and we got really we were always close. Well, we got really close during that process. And um sorry, I'm not I'm not crying, it's just something's in my throat. Um yeah, we we we worked together on that, and I guess after that all eventuated and we got the money for our businesses, um, I sort of got to a point where I thought, I don't want to work like that anymore. Um how many things do you actually need? How much money do you need in the bank account? What's important to you? How many good years do you have of of of time on on this planet before maybe life's not so enjoyable anymore? And so yeah, about two years ago I decided that I was just gonna potentially take a different outlook on life and and focus on you know doing the things that I like. So I really like doing the podcast, I like having fun conversations with Jake and talking to people like yourself and and other thought leaders in the space and learning because I I selfishly, for me, that's one of the things I like most about the podcast is actually just talking to really smart people and and inspiring people who've done great things and learning, even though I'm not medically trained, I I take a lot of um interest in understanding the medical side of it and how it all works. And and then from that came people reaching out who wanted me to help them with their businesses. I'd never done business consulting before. I'd I'd run my own businesses successfully for a long time and made a ton of mistakes, lost a lot of money, made a lot of money. I mean, when I was running that surgical business in my late 20s, early 30s, I was making, you know, two or three million dollars a year, which is like unheard like pretty unusual for someone that age. And it and it came um really easily, really quickly, and you know, with that comes arrogance and complacency and mistakes, and you know, that was a really traumatic period as well, going through the failure of that business. So um, yeah, it's it's been it's been a lot of life lessons the last five years in particular. And so, you know, here we are now, the podcast has been going for for five years. Um, you know, Jake and I are uh business partners, we're good friends. We he used to work with for me. Now we work together. Um and just love having the conversations and and helping people with their businesses, which I find really rewarding as well, trying to help people. You know, I don't claim to be an expert or to know everything, I can only share the experiences that I've had and and help people with strategies that have worked for me and hopefully guide people in the right direction. Um, but I find that really rewarding, and that's kind of where I'm at now and really getting back into my music again, which I which I gave away for a long time for my uh financial career or the business. And um and strangely, when I started when I decided I want to get back into business again, I went and bought myself a drum kit because I thought unless I go and commit to it, I'm gonna potentially not do what needs to be done because at the moment it's about a two or three hour commitment a day in practice to get back to the level that I was once at and potentially beyond. I ran into my old drum teacher who's now 77 years old, just randomly in a drum store, and he lives down the road from me. And he came into my life the year my dad died, and it's been a really interesting mentorship and and friendship um that's sort of grown quite quickly, even though he knew me when I was in high school. Like he's missed the entire period of my of my middle life, and um I think we're both different people now as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

What what you you sort of light up when you talk about him. First of all, yeah first first of all, let me stop and say I'm really sorry for your loss of your dad.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, and uh it's it's it it sounds to me like you were and this may be guessing, but like towards the end working together came closer because of that, kind of thing. And then to come closer at this stage after some of the things you told me as a youngster. Was this some you didn't see it the same exact way? Uh what was what was that like?

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Uh which sorry, which bit sorry, can you say that again?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

You know, you told me like, you know, you you weren't academically inclined, so you had some issues with your dad as a kid. Yeah. And so towards well, the end of his life and later in your life with your perspective, to then work together on a on a single cause that was the same cause. Yeah, how did that change the relationship? What was that like?

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Oh, it was it was like probably one of the most um important periods of my life, I think, because I got to see him in a different light. I mean, I'd always seen what he did from afar, and he was someone that liked to help people as well. I mean, he was a great lawyer, he wasn't financially, you know, one of the most successful lawyers out there, and it wasn't because he wasn't good at what he he did, was I mean he often helped people that never paid him or people that couldn't afford to help him that couldn't afford to pay him. Um, and so he wore his heart on his sleeve a lot and and did a lot for people. He probably shouldn't have been a lawyer, to be honest with you, probably should have done something else. He wasn't he wasn't the um the slick um you know uh aggressive personality that you normally associate with with when you watch these shows on TV with all these high-powered, successful lawyers. He didn't fit that mould, he was more of a Colombo kind of guy. And um maybe I'm showing my age now with that reference, so I'm not sure who your audience is, but um, you know, he was just quite an unassuming sort of person that liked to help people, and I'd always watched him, as I said, from afar, I'd never been intimately involved in what he did. So it was really eye-opening for me to see how much um he cared about his clients, and not just because it was his son that was also involved with the other people who he didn't know at all. And um it brought us a lot closer together, I think, that um a lot of um no relationship with a parent, I think, is perfect. I think it's always goes through ups and downs. I've heard this saying that you know, when you're young you you sort of um you idolise your parents, and then you get to a point, maybe it's in your teens or your twenties, and you you demonize them for whatever reason, um, and then you accept them. You accept them for who they are, they're just people like you and I, they're imperfect, they're not the the perfect um uh personality that you you're in the pedestal that you might have put them on when you when you were younger, and I think you go through that that sort of full circle where you just sort of go, they're just people like like me trying to do their best in life and they've got their faults, just like I do. And so that that process of sort of seeing him in his element and and how passionate about he was helping people and sort of overcoming like that that David and Goliath story. and and helping all these people get out and and financially avoid uh avoid financial ruin for a lot of people it it was a really it was a really important part of of my life and um you know we even spoke about it on his deathbed we we I was actually there with him when he passed and um I was very lucky to have that that opportunity um but it it did change me I think it did it soften me a lot and just gave me a d a different perspective and and maybe that's maybe that's how it was meant to be.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Wow that's that's really a remarkable story so you that brought you closer at that stage uh did you know when you started this case with him that he had a diagnosis like that or was that something that it happened really early on it happened really early on um he he got diagnosed and they put him on like a prophylactic dose of chemo which I was very concerned about.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

I mean I'm not as I said I'm not medical but you know the word chemotherapy scares me I've seen the results of that and I've seen the sick the success rate um which I know it's helped a lot of people but I know it's it's uh sometimes the the the the cube is almost worse than the disease from from what I've seen in many instances. And then it was during the time of COVID as well he got his he um obviously had to take his his medications for that their vaccines and whatnot um so there was a lot of stuff going into his system at the time and um we thought he was going to be okay and then it came back and when it came back it it was um it was pretty brutal pretty quickly. I mean in in some in some respects it was a blessing because it wasn't a a long drawn out process of just watching someone disintegrate in front of you it happened quite quickly it was in his it was basically it was a small cell carcinoma he was a smoker for many years I think it probably did start in his lung but they only discovered it in his bowel and then it got into his liver and you know once that sort of starts to happen it's it's pretty much game over from what I understand. So it was a very quick departure once it came back. Was do you feel like he was accepting towards the end uh what was that like yeah I think so I mean I I think that um I saw that I saw that that change in him when he went from being scared and anxious to just accepting that he wasn't gonna leave the the palliative care unit. I mean it was event it was supposed to be a uh it was going to be either he's gonna get better or he's not gonna get better. It was like either rehabilitation or that was going to be the you know keeping him comfortable until until he passed kind of situation. And I think once he realized that you know every day he was going the wrong direction I saw that change in him. And I guess the the hardest thing for me during that period was not that he was going to not that he was going to die. It was more that um knowing what he must be thinking or imagining what he must be thinking when he was you know and all the family and the friends weren't there at night when he was just alone with his thoughts and what must be going through his head and the fear and the uncertainty and you know all the life regrets potentially that we will probably all have when that time comes um that was the hardest part for me was just thinking about what he must be feeling in those moments alone before the end.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Did you ever talk to him about that?

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Uh we didn't you know what we actually never spoke about his death. He never wanted to talk about it. It was something that was just never it was never brought up we never actually spoke about him dying it was just something that was unspoken and I disrespected the fact that he didn't want to bring it up so I didn't bring it up. And you mentioned that a couple of times he's used the word for you how how so was it important oh because I think that I got opportunity to tell him things that I probably that I didn't tell him before um you know how proud I was of him how much I appreciated everything that that he did for me and my brother and my mum the sacrifices all the the late nights you know the life lessons all the the arguments and um all the times that I thought that uh you know I thought he was an arse that uh I understood it was just out of love and concern and wanting the best and so we did we did get to have those moments of closure and it was important for me to get those things off my chest and to tell him how I felt and how much I loved him and appreciated you know all the things that he had done. And um not many people get that and I mean not many people get to have their family around them when they pass. Most people die alone. He got all the people that he loved the most in the room with him and you know getting to have those moments of saying goodbye without saying goodbye but just saying the things that potentially you would regret not saying if you didn't have the opportunity to to know that was the last time you were potentially going to see that person.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

What a remarkable gift you gave him to to tell him that what a what a what a it sounds like a gift you gave each other. So yeah off for sure. That's really amazing wow you know uh it's that old well it's good news and bad news so who knows why KKR and all the bullshit happened right in in the end you see how that happens yeah off for sure nothing makes sense at the time does it sometimes it takes time to sort of understand the relevance and was it all just sort of serendipity or was there some kind of plan behind it?

SPEAKER_03 27:21

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah I go back and forth on that sure it and you Manton's family sounds like you're a father now are you a father?

SPEAKER_03 27:30

No no no I'm not I've got I've got a long term partner uh girlfriend we've been together for 10 years um we don't have kids we've kind of made the decision that um we don't want to at the moment you know yeah is that going to change I don't know I don't know I'm I'm open to the idea but I think I don't know maybe I've become too selfish with my life maybe I like doing the things that I like to do and maybe the thought of having to give all that up because I think that um when I look around the world and this is not me sort of being judgmental I just see um kids being raised these days and um I don't know whether or not people take parenting as as seriously as they used to I think that a lot of people outsource parenting to mobile devices and and you know third parties and I think that if you do want to raise a kid it's like that's very much your life is now over for yourself. You are now you are now living that life for your child um and I think that's a very that's a very big commitment and I don't know whether or not I'm prepared to do that at this point. But maybe that'll change.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Yeah you never know it's it's a wise thing to be aware of because you know everyone can be a parent when not everyone should be a parent. Yeah um in in my humble opinion uh yeah I agree what what is it about your drum teacher you hadn't seen in years oh yeah that made you sort of light up when you told me that he came in he was sort of a mentor what what what is he is he do you consider him a leader? What is it about him?

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Oh I mean he's just um he's just a really genuine person that uh loves loves the art form loves loves the instrument um if you are willing to put in the time he'll give you everything um he he's more than just a drum teacher he's like a life coach and he's he's produced some of the best drummers in this country um he's played over 15000 gigs he was when he was um in the height of his career you know where everyone else everyone else was making lots of money and putting things up their nose and you know spending time with with you know opposite sex and you know just partying um he was buying properties with that and he's done very very well for himself even though he's not a famous musician in a notable band he's played with a lot of high profile people and done a lot of uh session work he wasn't a drummer that you'd like a household name but he managed to make a really amazing career for himself just through being intelligent and making wise decisions um he's a really astute guy he's very generous um he's funny we've got a lot of the same thoughts on you know the world and and the way that it runs and we we have like our conversations go from music to politics to economics um to history um so he's a really well read educated person um with a big heart um you know he if he's got a student that can't afford to buy get a drum kit he I've seen instances where he'll go and buy a student a drum kit or give them something um because they can't afford to because he wants them to be able to learn if they're if they're putting in the time and practicing and want to do it he'll do anything he can to help them. And so he reminds me of my dad in a lot of ways but kind of different at similar age um similar principles and it was just kind of weird as as sort of one important mentor in my life left another one arrived and it was just really interesting and I kind of took that as a sign that I need to foster this relationship um with with him and maybe do some of the things and say some of the things that I that I didn't say or should have said with my dad and and make sure that I you know appreciate the gift.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Wow that's really uh you you have you have learned that's um that's amazing and amazingly insightful in my opinion um I I have to ask what genre of music do you like to play?

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Oh gosh when I was younger it was like yeah when I was younger it was like heavy metal and and uh quite physical mus full on music um at the moment a lot of jazz like modern jazz swing jazz latin um funk a little bit of rock if it's if it's there I don't go go go searching for it yeah um blues RB hip hop yeah yeah are you are you doing any stuff with other guys are you doing any gigs yeah I'm working I'm working yeah I'm working with like if like a heap of different musicians at the moment I've got a studio that I share with two other people which is about 20 minute drive from my home yeah and um like in this studio behind this camera I've got like a practice kit set up so after I finish this call I've got an hour and a half to do and I'm actually catching up with him today my teacher I see him every two or three weeks now because he'll load me up with like just a pile of music yeah and I've got to somehow get through it. But uh if I have a problem I I call him like we have sometimes phone calls at midnight because he's like me he doesn't sleep yeah so so I might just say uh you know this piece he gave me over here in this time signature like I can't work out and I'll call him at midnight he'll pick up the phone and we'll talk for like a half an hour and we'll talk about music for like 10 minutes and then it somehow drifts off into some other stuff we'll start talking about other things. But yeah it's cool.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah I remember the first time as a young musician being hit with Dave Brubeck and the 5-4 yeah I was just playing take five uh last night and then you go yeah crazy isn't it yeah great dread Morello was a great drummer yeah amazing oh yeah and and you just put one more one more you know addition to the top uh top numerator five four instead of four four and everything goes crazy yeah exactly yeah just that extra note makes a massive difference doesn't it yeah actually you play an instrument yourself yeah I started on the drums with a pad set so I wouldn't drive my parents crazy because I was very attracted to them yeah uh but keyboards was always in my family and I I that's probably my main instrument I played some brass and some woodwinds but uh but uh so you listen to um chick career as well probably oh herbie hancock chick career yeah I cool all the different eras you know the beepop is fun I I can't listen to that too long bebop but yeah uh but you know miles and train I mean it's just oh my gosh yeah did you ever get into um Tony Williams uh I've no I heard but I know it is what's that like what would you call him like Tony Williams a drummer I mean he was playing with miles davis when he was like 15.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Oh there's a there's there's an album you should check out called Four and more you can't get it on Spotify you just go on YouTube I think it's called Four and More Four and more four and more F-O-U-R I'm pretty sure four and more and um it's like it's a live recording of Miles Davis playing with Tony Williams and Tony Williams is like in his like he's like 14 or 15 years old and he just like a prodigy it's phenomenal. I will check it where where where could I find it what do you think just go to YouTube I think I think you'll find it there I can send you a link after this I'll I'll find you I'll send it to you I love that definitely worth a listen and you just remember like Tony Williams is like 15 14 15 years old when he's playing it's just mind blowing unbelievable unbelievable um I'm curious uh the you at a pretty early stage from what I can tell your timeline you wrote a book about skin yeah I did yeah were you were you already knowledgeable about skin and this is a long time ago no I didn't know yeah so this is back in 2009 I um when I was working at Cosmos Clinic I was doing a lot of the initial like pre-screening consultations for the doctors that worked there um and I found that most of the doctors there weren't really good at explaining these concepts to patients they were saying they were talking in a way that the patient didn't really understand too technical and so coming from all my years in sales and then learning all this technical information even though I wasn't a doctor I was able to like explain the concepts in a way that the patient understood like putting it in layman's terms because that's how I needed to kind of explain it to myself or learn about it so that it made sense to me not coming from a medical background. And so that was the inspiration for the book was a layperson's guide to understanding like the skin skincare the cosmetic procedures are around at that time a little bit of surgery and I was lucky enough to have great people around me there was a plastic surgeon there I had a family friend that was a dermatologist so everything that I wrote was fact checked by them so I wasn't putting out uh what do they call it now misinformation yeah yeah um yeah we live in the misinformation world now um so uh yeah and that was it was really successful I mean I was doing a lot of TV stuff at the time like a lot of um morning shows and promoting the book and promoting the the Cosmos clinic that I was working at and so that was pretty cool. Doing live TV is pretty scary. And um yeah so that that was that was it and it was good because it sort of opened some doors for me and then that kind of led the sort of led me to the next chapter of my career which was you know meeting the guy called Bobak who's been on the podcast a few times before the the guy that um started laser clinics with his business partner. Yeah. And so that was kind of how I got invited to an event was through that book that I met him at. And so um yeah it was it was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

That's really how it works out. Yeah and I I wonder if there's a message given all that you know about you know people the providers who are not talking in the right language to their patients.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Do you have a message there for some of the injectors who might be listening in today uh um I think it was just about really understanding like understanding what the patient wants and needs being able to find out how that person needs to be communicated with because I when I was in sales training we learned this thing called like matching and mirroring yeah and understanding the different communication types and so I think that there's something to be said about being true to yourself and attracting the patients that resonate with you and that's also true. But I think it's also true that as the person that is trying to convey the information the the onus or the responsibility on you as a medical provider or any professional whether it be a lawyer or a doctor barrister is to find a way to take a concept that potentially could be foreign or complicated to the person you're trying to communicate with and find a way to to communicate that that they understand. And a lot of the time just being able to the language choice the tone of your voice the speed at which you're talking um body language all those kinds of things help open up commun communication channels a lot of the time it's not what you say it's how you say it. And I think um it's something that a lot of people that I've worked with over the years and observed in my clinics they tend to struggle with certain people and it's just because they haven't figured out how to communicate with them yet or they're not looking at the way in which they're talking or communicating to make that transfer. It's almost like once you've it's like you know you meet someone out you might meet someone at a bar or at a social event and you go you know what I really don't like that person. I don't know what it is about that person. I just don't I can't stand that person. I can't wait to be away be in another room and then you don't know why but and other people you meet and you like get on like a house on fire and you're like you this like this person's like your long lost best friend. You know maybe you have something in common maybe it's a sporting team music something something just resonates you're like vibrating at this frequency and information can can sort of transfer really easily it's like just this open this open channel and I think that comes from like being able to establish rapport and and communicate in a way and looking for commonalities and I think that a lot of people need to just think about their communication. They're really focused on clinical application and I have nothing to offer in terms of telling people how to apply technique or to inject things or to cut things and sew things. That's not my area and I don't pretend it to be but I think focusing on communication and understanding how to be a good communicator and being able to adapt your style so that that person resonates with you is a step that a lot of people miss.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah oh gosh I I think that's right. I I I tell people on my team and everyone you know if you're communicating with someone and they don't understand the fault does not lie in them right yeah yeah uh well you have such a wealth of experience seeing this industry inside outside I think you're not being a quote unquote medical provider although I've heard you speak you certainly know the ins and outs of the the the techniques um gives you a perspective that really puts you at uh just uh I mean your insights I think are very valuable so in in we we have a lot of folks who watch who are either new to the industry they're young injectors or they're they're they've been around what what kind of things in the environment that you see or in Australia and I get it I I know all the stuff I I spent a year in Melbourne as a registrar I I know all right yeah a million years ago but I I mean I know the current current regulations but just in general in aesthetics um why should they get into it should they open their own place give me a kind of your view of what's what you'd say well I I think that if we look at where the industry's at we're at that maturation phase so for people that don't know what I'm talking about like every industry goes through different life like there's a life cycle of an industry or a business where there's the inception things are kind of new doesn't really have a lot of momentum yet maybe you've got some early adopters and then all things going well you'll go through a growth phase and we've been in an amazing growth phase for the last 10 or 20 years where there's new treatments it's exciting people want them there's great money to be made there's a lot of hype the media gets behind it for the good and the bad and um there's just been almost more demand than there has been supply I mean I remember 10 years ago you could like throw a dart bull throw a dart in any direction and open up a clinic and be successful with very short space of time.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Those days are like no longer here I don't think for most people in the developed like you know if I'm looking at like especially my major cities Sydney Melbourne probably California like anywhere where there's a lot of people there's a lot of providers and so I think that a lot of people have been drawn to the industry potentially because I think they're gonna be able to make a lot of money and there's a lot of prestige and it's an exciting you know glamorous space to be in and I think that if that's what's driving you you're gonna find it tough because I think that depending on where you are maybe you're in somewhere where it's still pretty underservice like more regional areas but I think for the most part unless you're like really passionate about aesthetics and you love dealing with patients like this and you're you're just driven by the actual industry and the procedures and really really loving the industry for what it is and you're just wanting to get rich quickly or you just want to be involved and become a famous injector or you know a key opinion leader or whatever it is I I think you might find it tough because that road to success used to be maybe one to three years is now probably like three to five years maybe a bit longer than that. There's going to be some hard times it's not going to be just an ease, easy smooth sailing process and that's the way in every industry ends up once it gets to that equilibrium where the supply meets demand. Now we're in Australia here we've got a lot of regulatory challenges as well which make it difficult to advertise so unless you've got an established database of patients attracting those patients and advertising to them and letting them know who you are and what you do is becoming increasingly challenging. I think as well we didn't know what we didn't know 10, 20 years ago. Like when I was involved at Cosmos we didn't know what a vascular occlusion was we had no idea like the concept wasn't even something that people was on leaving anyone's radar. We were just injecting with impunity well I wasn't but I was watching other people inject with almost impunity because I had no concept of of what could go wrong and people had no idea what they were doing aesthetically we're we're pretty down the road from that now I think people have got a pretty good idea of the risks and complications and how nuanced it is and it's become so complicated. I mean it used to be simple you just chase a line You fill it, you know, you shoot the muscle with the toxin, you know, everyone goes home, job done. Um, but now we realize it it's complicated. There's there's so many, you know, it could take you you know years and years and years and years and years to be even be considered like an intermediate or an advanced injector before you even you know consider being someone that's like a thought leader or a K opinion leader. Um so I think my message is make sure that you really are passionate about this space, that you're prepared to go through some tough times, you have contingency plans in place because if you're opening up your own business and you've got responsibilities like kids and a mortgage and it's gonna take you what's it three years minimum, maybe to build up a solid client base where you have got consistent income and and you're pretty feel safe in your in your business, um, you might make some bad decisions. You might take on patients you shouldn't take on. You might do treatments that are beyond your capacity. Um and so I think that being prepared for the slow, slow burn, be in it for the right reason, find a good mentor. I wouldn't be in a rush to open up my own business in this environment. I think there's a lot of utility and benefit in finding a mentor and working for somebody else and building up your skill, having someone there that can help you when things go wrong, because if you do enough treatments, things will eventually go wrong because that's just the law of averages and numbers. You can't get away from that. That's just how life is with everything. Um, and then after that, if you decide you want to go and do your own thing, go and do it the right way. You know, be honest about your intentions with the person that's given you your career and your knowledge, do it, you know, leave, you know, start the way you want to finish and don't burn bridges behind you. Um you're not gonna get rich quickly, you're not gonna be successful quickly. And if you are, you probably won't appreciate it and you'll probably make mistakes like I did. Um and the other thing as well is don't run away from understanding business. If you want to get into the business side of things and you want to have your own business, you're gonna need to learn some skills that you probably haven't come into contact with before, like how to read financial documents, understanding basic business metrics, um, not just handing over your accounting information to your accountant and hoping and praying they're doing the right thing. You need to have a basic understanding of how business works. You need to be able to read a profit and loss statement, you need to understand what a balance sheet is, you need to know what your break-even point is every week, what are your gross margins, where are the risks in your business, um, all your policies, procedures, compliance, you know, having a good lawyer on speed dial, making sure that all your I's are dotted and your T's are crossed, because this is a very litigious industry. If people don't like what like the outcome that they've gotten or they've perceived they've got a complication, or you did give them a complication, um, things can go wrong. Um and I think that taking your time and being thorough and arming yourself with the right skills, surrounding yourself with the right network of people is really, really important. And that's so that would be my advice.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

And what would you with your again, wealth of background and consulting in this area, what would you say are the top one or two things that uh uh most businesses of MedSpot could do now that would take them to a different level, a higher level? Is it is there a few commonalities that you come in and go, you know what, a lot of people get this wrong or or could really do better? Anything that comes to mind?

SPEAKER_03 47:24

Um well, first of all, I think m a lot of the people I talk to don't know their numbers. So they don't know they judge the success of their business by how much money's in their bank account. Oh, there's money in the account, things are good. Um so getting to getting to grips with basic financial knowledge and understanding and knowing what are the what are the points, like how much money do you need to make every week to be successful, to keep your doors open? Yeah, that's like a really basic concept that I'm sure a lot of people listen to this. If I ask them how much money do you need to make every week to not lose money, I'm sure a lot of them wouldn't be able to answer the question. Um probably not. Um having the right people on your team is really, really important. I think that when you look at clinics out there and you look at the the different personalities and different skills that they're within the space, like one of the things that that I learned was you can't have a team full of people that aren't working as a cohesive unit. So there are going to be people within your within your team that have different strengths and weaknesses, different personality types. So, you know, when you're recruiting, make sure that you're not only recruiting from a skill perspective, but you're recruiting from a personality perspective and a team cohesiveness perspectives and being able to have different people that complement strengths and weaknesses within the space. Um in terms of something they could do to add to their I think the consultation process, I think that again, I I just think it's heavily overlooked. I I I when I look around and have different consults at different people's businesses and talk to various clients from around the world and ask them about their consultation process, um, a lot of them do an okay job, but in terms of what is it that's going to make that patient stay with you, a lot of the time it's not about the clinical result. I think people just expect a good clinical result. And sure, you're gonna have your freaks of nature out there, they're people that have just got this Midas touch, they just, you know, like Imarizio de Mayo, you've you've those those people out there exist. That like that point one point, you know, 0.01% of people that have just got some artistic gift that they can just create the result that no one else can create. Those people are out there, right? But that's that's not me. I'm I'm not one of those people. I've just had to work really, really damn hard and and try really hard. And so, but I think that what it is that keeps people in your business and draws people to you is a way that you make them feel. And so assuming that you're able to give satisfactory clinical outcomes, it's really focusing on developing relationships, your consultation process, and how it is you make your patients feel, and identifying what what your X factor is, what it is about, what is it about you that makes you different? Why should people come to you than the person down the road that's doing exactly the same thing who's getting similar clinical outcomes? It's it's the patient experience and the relationship that you're able to build, your consultation process, and um making yourself irreplaceable.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Yeah, I I love that. You know, you I always say you can copy and paste, but it ain't the same glue. Yeah, exactly. What's the X factor?

SPEAKER_03 50:40

You know, yeah, and don't be yeah, don't be afraid to be yourself. I think a lot of people just see these injectors online. I want to be like that person, and they just well, that's you can't be because that's not you. You need to figure out what about what it is about you that makes you different and just embrace that.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I love crazy weird shit like wear wearing a ninja cap. I just think it's fun. Life's getting short, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

Yeah. I was thinking when I first saw it, I was like, who is this guy? What's what's going on with this ninja stuff? I was like, I was like, okay, this is different.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Uh you know, I fell into this space by accident after being a urologist who took care of surgery on leaky bladders, but uh during COVID, it's a long story, but I had to wear this, had to wear that. And my patient said, You look like a ninja. She brought me a t-shirt that said ninja injector. And if you go to the lower part of my Instagram, it says at Dr. Lonnie Green. And that right there I said, I'm going with that. You know, like I love it. It's fun. Uh and I just I've never looked back, I leaned into it. Because again, I I'm life's too short not to have fun.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

Of course. Yeah, yeah. That's the thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Yeah, and you attract the people who believe what you believe, and the ones who don't believe what you believe or think you're weird, that's okay. I I respect that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

Um, just I was just gonna say on that, if you if you're constantly pretending to be someone else, you're gonna attract people that you probably don't like. You'll end up with patience that you you'll end up with patience that you can't stand. Yeah. You've got to pretend that you like.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

And yeah, and also, yeah, it goes beyond that. But yeah, you end up creating a rod for your own back, and then you realize why you hate your life or you hate your patients, or you don't like the industry anymore.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Yeah, yeah. I I know it may be unbecoming for me, like yesterday, rolling on the floor with a puppy that came in. But look, it's it I don't care if it's unbecoming, it's it's real. Um, you know, you are such a multifaceted guy, but before I get into this next question, uh do you you you're kind of uh I wouldn't say you're a mystery, but you keep a very low profile on social. There's not much on you. Is that intentional, or you just, you know, you live your life and you don't put things out? I'm I'm curious, I'm curious.

SPEAKER_03 52:40

Yeah, that's uh yeah, I I I wrestle with that. I I have a love-hate relationship with social media. I think that um, you know, Jake and I have had conversations around, you know, you need to put yourself out there more, you need to put more stuff up, and then I'm like, yeah, but I don't want everyone to know everything about me. Like I I don't want to put all my personal stuff up online because once it's out there, you don't know who's watching it. You don't know, you can't take that back. And so I'm I'm wrestling with that myself. So, you know, I'm happy to take advice for you know, if you if you you know, if you've got any advice to share on that, I'm I'm happy to listen. I don't I wrestle with it. I don't know what the right right answer is. It is intentional, but I don't know what the what the solution is.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

Well, I I wouldn't say I have advice. I could give you my what I think of what you said, but I'd have to before I did that, I would have to ask you one really important question that has I mean, I wouldn't say it's kept me up, but I've been curious since we started arranging this. And the question I have is why did you agree to do this podcast?

SPEAKER_03 53:36

Oh, I mean, uh, well, I sort of saw that you're friends with a common friend of ours. So Dan, Dan Julian, someone that you know Jake and I know relatively well. Jake's had a couple of catch-ups with him in person. I haven't met Dan yet in person. Um, so if he thinks you're a good guy, then you must be a good guy. You looked a bit wacky, like you look like you do some interesting stuff, and I like interesting, wacky people because it makes me feel less weird. Um and I just uh you know, I like to support people. Like if you've reach reached out, you obviously listen to the podcast and you support us. So I feel like if someone's gonna support us, it I feel it's incumbent upon me to support them as well. And why not? I like I like talking and look talking to people and and learning things, and um yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_00 54:19

I I I take all of that as an extreme compliment. I appreciate that. Yeah, Dan's a great guy, and uh Felix is a mutual friend.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Yeah, yeah, great, yeah. You went to the inner circle recently, didn't you?

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Uh I've gone for two years now and I've developed a very close relationship with Felix. I find him to be on the same wavelength, and uh we are giving a couple of workshops together at Aesthetic Next coming up in September of 24. And it's been a it's been a very like you the podcast, I I grow from being around people who are are this way. And and to that to that point, you uh again, I I try to learn a little bit about you, and I have to ask you so you have educated the hell out of me in a way that has touched me in my limbic brain much deeper than I in my new you really have. I had no idea that bonsai trees have this entire philosophical uh side to them. I mean, I you know, I gotta, I mean, like I I'm sure I'm not pronouncing this correctly, but I'm gonna tell you a three that stood out to me, and then I want to get your take on this. Okay. So wabi sabi refers to beauty and imperfection and impermanence. I love that. Yep. Yeah, ma is the space or interval between objects, the negative space. Yep. And then the Japanese, which of course, being a ninja, I love this. Yeah, Shizen, S-H-I-Z-E-N, is you know, creating trees that look natural and uncontrived. Yeah, what better speaks to what I love to do with faces? I mean, it's just so tell me about that because it's gotta be a release. Uh I had no idea, so I don't know where to start, but tell me about bonsai trees. And you're obviously known for it and very good at it.

SPEAKER_03 56:05

Yeah. Um, I got into it about 20 years ago with my partner at the time, um, different, different girlfriend to the my current one. Um, she was super artistic, and she just said, you need to like get out more. You're like just behind your laptop, like do something creative, like you're not doing drums anymore, like you need to like chill out, go do something, go go hug a tree, go do something, get out of the house, do something. So she bought bought me this little tree and I killed it. And I've always been fascinated. Always been fascinated.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

I love the way you own that.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Yeah, yeah, I killed it, yeah. And um, I was really upset. I'm like, what the hell did I do wrong? Like, Jesus, like, I'm an idiot. Like, can't even keep this little tree alive. Like, you definitely can't have kids. What is wrong with you?

SPEAKER_00 56:56

Trinity kids, you know.

SPEAKER_03 56:57

Yeah, exactly, right? So um, I just like I have this weird thing in my personality where like if I decide I want to do something and for some reason I can't do it, it's like shit. All right. Game on. Let's go. So, yeah, so um I became obsessed because I just started going online and seeing all these amazing trees and going, oh wow, like I don't think I've met anyone that says they don't like bonsai. Like, it's just like one anyone that looks at one goes, wow, that doesn't matter, like the age of the person, like where in the world they're from. They look at it and go, Holy shit, that's amazing. Um, and I just thought it was like this magic trick that I wanted to learn how to do. And then so that was the beginning of it. I mean, I was just like on YouTube, like back then there was like 10 videos on YouTube on it, and I just watched them. Like, I think I was responsible for like 90% of the views, kept watching it over and over again. Um, you know, I studied horticulture, like non officially, but just myself. Like, I spent a lot of time studying horticulture to understand how because I had no idea how plants worked, I had zero understanding of plant physiology. And bonsai is one of these art forms that like it breaks all the rules of horticulture, and you're not really supposed to put a tree in a small pot and cut it all the time and you know, bend the branches, like that's flies in the face of what horticult, like you know, what you learn to do in horticulture, but you need to learn that I think first, or those basic understanding of how how plants actually work before you start breaking all those rules. Um, so yeah, I mean I just became obsessed with it, and to me, it was like this complete juxtaposition between like working in an industry where I'm trying to make well, not me, but working in an industry where our businesses are trying to make people look younger and less imperfect and um, you know, no wrinkles and all that kind of stuff, right? Then you got this tree that's like the older this thing looks and the more messed up it looks, and the gnarly, more gnarly the bark is. That's that that's like that's beautiful. And I just found it really interesting that we could take such see such beauty and imperfection and age in a in a tree and look at a human face and see no value in someone that's showing the signs of aging. I just found it really interesting that the opposite thought process between two different living entities was so was just like, yeah, I just I found that wild, really. Um and so yeah, I just and also I just found that it it um you know, once you start messing with trees, you're like your hands are in soil, there's like bugs and worms, and you start learning about microclimates and fungus and growing mediums and all that kind of stuff, and then you start to go, oh wow, like there's this whole like microcosm going on here in this little tree, and that's like almost like a um like a key that can like transport you to the natural world. It's like taking a piece of the natural world and putting it in your home and putting it in, you know, putting it in your garden. You know, because you can have like a shrub or like you know, a bush in your in your in your in your garden, but like to make it look like an ancient tree that's come out of a forest or off a cliff somewhere, um, it just sort of takes you through this portal where you just go from looking at a cool tree to all of a sudden being completely enamored with like nature and all the animals that rely on that tree and the climate that will shape it, all the environmental factors, the wind, the snow, the altitude, the elevation, the lack of water, um, the heat, all those kinds of things shape and um create these amazing species. And no true trees are the same. You know, they're like people, they have different growth habits, and there'll be environmental factors, they'll get hit by lightning, some bug will start eating it, or and you just see these things, you watch this battle between life and death in these really old species, and then learning the horticulture, how to like apply technique in the correct way so you don't kill things when you try and do it. Um, but it's been a really interesting journey for me because it has really reconnected me with nature, like really, like in terms of like just wanting to be outside and and going and seeing ancient growth forests around the world and and sort of feeling the age of these things. I remember I was in the Natural History Museum in London about 10 years ago, and there was a ring cutting um of a giant sequoia. So those giant sequoias uh sort of um they only grow in the states, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, um, so if you go about two, two, three hours like east of like Cal, like I think Hollywood, well I can't remember, like I drove up there in the mountains, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

Yeah, northern California.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:33

Yeah, so I went to like Sequoia National Park. Like anyway, so that's where those trees are from that region. They're from a few other places as well. Yeah, but these trees are massive and they're like two or three thousand years old. And this ring cutting was on the wall of the Natural History Museum. And just to give people like a sense of scale, like you could have to have like 20 or 30 people holding hands to get around the circumference of one of these things. Yeah, and this ring cutting had like plaques on it from all these different relevant periods of time in history, like the birth of Jesus Christ, like Alexander the Great, all the different world wars, and you're like, Holy shit, we're so insignificant compared to these things that have just been here for thousands of years. Um, and so yeah, I I I just I love it, and it's just a way of um communicating um the wabi-sabi thing, yeah, seeing the beauty and imperfection. I think that's I love it. There's a lot of life lessons there, I think. Um it's a metaphor for a lot of things. Um the negative space, and that's the negative space is something that only came to me as an artist in the last sort of five to six years, and it's something that you see through all art forms. Like if I'm playing the drums, it's the notes that I don't play, it's the space between the notes. If I just hit someone with like a wall of notes and just assault them with like double kick drum and just notes everywhere, like that's just that doesn't sound nice. But it's the negative space, so it's a negative space between the notes, it's a negative space between the words that I speak, it's the negative space um in the branches. It's that you know that creates that sense of scale, and um people see like you when you're like learning an art form, you don't really appreciate the negative space, you just want to play the note or put the branch there or grow the foliage there, or I guess put the filler there if you want. Um, but knowing what to leave out is really it's it's it takes a long time to learn that. It's almost like the last step was the last step for me. And even now I feel like I'm now just acquired the basic skills where I can create pretty much whatever's in my imagination. But as an artist, I'm only just beginning because it's taken me this long to get the basic skills to have you know mastery over the basics. And it's like that, I think, with everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:42

Yeah, well, I appreciate that very much, and again, I appreciate you opening my eyes because if I could translate to the way it speaks to me, some of these things, I would say what you were just talking about, negative space. Uh, to me in my everyday what I love to do with with about injecting, it it's it's probably equally or more important where you don't put the filler. Yeah. Yeah. You focus on where to put the filler, but think about where where not to put the filler.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

Yeah. It's hard. That's the hardest step, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

Harder than harder than learning where to inject the cheek, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

Yeah. Do you follow my bonsai Instagram page?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

Uh, you know, I haven't, but I'm going to after doing this thing because it's check it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

What is it? What is the name? It's um boutique bonsai. Again, because I'm a mystery.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:30

I have it, I have it, I have it on private, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

I did. I saw it. I went, yeah, because it's private. So I will uh hopefully get it. Check it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:38

Yeah, I'll I'll definitely accept you. I just want to know, yeah, I just like to know who's out there. Um because you just get so many bots and weird people, like you just go, who is this? I don't know who this person is. Um, but yeah, check it out. Um, I work on a lot of Australian native species, which is kind of a bit of a trip because you don't see those species those species in other parts of the world. So there's some interesting aesthetics there that I think you'll find interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

Oh, there's a lot of shit you don't see in the in any part of the world with Australia. You know, I mean I know, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

We've got some wild stuff here.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

Oh, you do. And and I mean, let's just talk about the drop bear.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:09

Oh, yeah. Well, I can talk about the drop spider because one of my actually there's a funny story. Yeah, um, there's a a really, really probably the most um important bonsai artist outside of Japan who lives in America. He's a guy called Ryan Neal, and he lives in um Portland, Oregon, in uh just about 20 minutes outside of the city in um St. Helens. And um he he was one of the people I've I've learned a lot from. He he did went and did a six year apprenticeship in Japan. He was the first Westerner to complete a six year apprenticeship in Japan with probably the hardest taskmaster in Japan. Anyway, long story short, he came out to Australia and he was staying in my house. And um at about one o'clock in the morning, he went up to go he got up to go to the bathroom and a giant. Huntsman Spider, which is like people don't know like a Huntsman spider, they're like the size of like a teacup saucer, but they don't they're fairly harmless, like dropped onto his lap while he was on the toilet, and it was yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was not happy.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

It's crazy, yeah. You know, I'll tell you there's only one thing I don't like about this podcast is that I've I want to respect your time. I know you get to get to the junk. So we're we're heading, we're heading towards the end, but I could I I hope we get a chance to catch up and be able to do that. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:31

Love to I thought we were gonna talk about aesthetics the whole time. So this was interesting. See, this is the thing. I didn't know what to expect. And I didn't ask because I wanted to I wanted to just see what happen see how it went.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

Yeah, I'll be honest with you. I my goal with this podcast has evolved. Uh, you know, actually I I like doing clinical teaching, but there's a lot of that out there. I went into I said, well, let me do some of the business stuff. I've been fortunate to have a pretty successful business. And then I then I said, well, let me niche down to leadership because I'm inspired by Simon Sinek. And what is David, what what's evolved is we're we're it's now profiles and aesthetics because I find the people so interesting. I don't want to put anyone into a box and tell me about the leaders in your life. I just love learning about the faces behind like who people watch you so much, but do they really know who you are? And to me, that's where the value lies in community. I I my strive my goal is to bring more community. I I want the profession to be more scientific, but more community. Let's support each other. And that takes being vulnerable, which you've shared today, which I I so appreciate.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:38

Yeah, thank you so much. And wait, am I sorry, go on?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

Well, I don't want to let you go yet. I have a couple more questions. I'm just letting you go. Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:45

Go, go, go, go. Yes, I'm not I'm not in a hurry. That's all good. The drums are not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

Okay, cool. So the first thing I want to say is um or ask you is is there what what's something I didn't ask you or anything you would like to say? You know, we we have a lot of uh injectors and and different audience members. Is there anything that you kind of would like to say?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:07

Ooh. Um maybe let's come back to that. Let's go to that. I'll think about that while you ask the next question. Okay. Let me let me think about that. Let me put that on the back burner for a sec.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:16

Okay. And then because I really respect your background and what you've come through, yeah. For those who are interested, I have a lot of injectors now who um talk about entrepreneurship and and that kind of stuff. So for those who are interested in, let's say, business leadership, entrepreneurship as it applies to aesthetics, besides, of course, the best podcast, which is inside aesthetics, we know that. But besides that one with this crazy looking guy named Jake and a really nice guy named David, besides that one, um, are there any books, podcasts, or anything that you say, you know, this has been an influence on me, or like for me, it's it's Simon Sinek and anyone on you?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

Business.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:59

Oof.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

Well, gosh. Business leadership, entrepreneurship, anyone that you or do you even I mean diary diary of a CEO is like I mean, that's that's great.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:09

I love watching him.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

Um Steven Bartlett, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:12

Yeah, geez, he's great, he just puts out such great content. Um agreed. Yes, yeah. I mean, I think Felix is doing a podcast, it'd be very interesting. I haven't seen them come out yet. We Jake and I did a podcast with him a few weeks ago. Um, uh I if he if he actually starts publishing it, I'm I'm apologies, Felix, if you haven't. I haven't seen it yet, but I think I think he's going to.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:35

It no, it's out. It's great. I've been a guest in biz business and aesthetics, aesthetics and biz, and I highly recommend Felix's. I recommend Diary CEO concur absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:46

Yeah. Yeah. Felix is so great. Yeah. He's such a he's one of the really um just I think the nicest thing I could say about Felix is he's just genuine.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

Like you don't I don't need to tell anyone about his accolades and what he's done and all that kind of stuff, but he's just such I've got a pretty good bullshit radar these days. I've I've seen a lot of stuff, a lot of people come and go, and um, you can pick up ulterior motives pretty quickly, and he's just like one of the most genuine people. So definitely I think Dan's doing a great job. I think you're doing a great job. Um yeah, I mean yeah, Stephen Bartlett. Yeah, um, and I just listen to lots of different podcasts. Like every now and again, I'll listen to someone on Joe Rogan. You know, I don't listen to every episode. Um, he does great stuff. Um, you know, Lex Friedman's pretty interesting. He's got some some really sometimes the stuff's like just way too complicated for my feeble brain, like way too technical. Yeah, but uh super interesting. Um Jordan Peterson's a pretty interesting dude. Um, yeah, but you know, he's got some interesting, some interesting messages. There's a lot of great stuff out there. So I think that doesn't always have to be business, but just people that get you to start thinking about things differently.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

Yeah, which is what I hope we do with this thing. Yeah. Um, so um, yeah, so uh I'm gonna circle back because I I want to respect your time. Anything you kind of want to say? We got a great audience here who are interested in you, aesthetics and just life in general. Uh anything?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:10

Yeah, I I think it's um for me the biggest the biggest thing that's made an impact on my life is just surrounding myself with with people who are smarter than me, more charismatic than me, better looking than like you're like just I I just try and be the dumbest person in the room. Um, and if you're the smartest person in the room, it's probably time to change rooms. Um, because I think you become the average of the people that you spend the most time with, and that might sound really cliche, but you know, when I've hung out with bad people, I've become a bad person. And when I hang out with good people, um I I try to become a better person. And I think that just being conscious of your surroundings, your environment, and the people that you're spending time with um will really have a big impact um on your life, your level of success, the opportunities that open themselves to you, um, and not being scared to be a little bit vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:00

Yeah, yeah. I love that. Um, for people who've been living under a rock and don't know how to find you, where where where where should people go to learn more about you?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:08

Yeah, first and foremost, check out um Inside Aesthetics Podcast, which just look up on Instagram, Inside Aesthetics, actually.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:15

I just want to shout out, is I I believe it's the number one aesthetic podcast in the world, and I find the episodes to be amazing, uh really uh interesting in many formats. So I would I would concur with that heartily.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:29

Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's just up inside aesthetics podcast. If you want to follow me personally, you will have to do a request because I don't have it open, but just look up David underscore inside aesthetics if you're interested in looking at my bonsai. It's just boutique bonsai. And um, if you want to check out all my crazy trees, you can do that. And then just shout out to our Patreon. Um, you know, Jake and I did the podcast for five years without even thinking about how we would potentially, you know, make it commercial. Um, but the Patreon seems to be a great way that we can sort of create this in this community of people. I think we've got about 700 people who are part of our Patreon community now. So Jake and I put up exclusive content every week. I do business stuff, Jake does inject, we get various contributors that come on. We've got these crazy WhatsApp groups with like hundreds of people from all around the world. And I think one of the things that I love the the most about it is you know, there's people from the United States, Europe, Asia, Australia, people that have been injecting for 20 years, people that have been injecting for five minutes, and I think it can be a very lonely existence sometimes this space, very competitive. Um, and these WhatsApp groups and this Patreon community allow anyone who loves this space to get support, share ideas, people asking questions all the time about different patient scenarios, business questions, regenerative health. So um, if you're interested in that, you can come and do a seven-day free trial. Just um, if you go to our Instagram, there's a there's a link there, you can check it out and see what you think in seven days. If you want to join the crazy community, we'd we'd love to have you.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:55

Yeah, highly recommend because you get if you join the Patreon, you get, you know, Jake's take, who has a lot of knowledge, yeah, obviously aesthetics, but also knows the business, and David's who is unbelievable in business, but has a very good feel from the aesthetics. So it's a very nice Patreon to have a balanced thing. I I would highly encourage people to check it out at least. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

Yeah. So um, well, we have a tradition on this show, and our closing question, we we ask people to submit questions. We we we have gathered a certain type of question because they get the feel from hearing my other ones. And um, we don't I I the night before will pick out of a hat a question. All right, okay. And so no one knows no one knows who's gonna get what question, and I don't know which one you're gonna get till uh so you happen to have gotten a relatively long and complex one, but I'm not worried because you're a smart guy. So you gotta stay with me here, okay?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:56

Okay, okay. Okay, let's roll.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:58

Here's I'm gonna set it up and give you the question. So you're you you're a traveler, you're exploring a cave in the Amazon rainforest, and there's this narrow passageway, and of course, you're a curious guy, so you gotta squeeze your way through. And you pop through, and you're in a parallel universe with a wizard on the other side. And he's really happy to have some company, and he's in a really good mood, you chat, you hit it up, and but then he says, Look, you gotta return, but otherwise you're upsetting the cosmic ballad, so you gotta go back to that opening. But I really like you. So before you leave, I've enjoyed our time together. I'm giving you a gift that has some stipulations. Okay. And so what he tells you that if you decide you want this, he's gonna grant you a power that you will be able to magically transform our current society into one where literally everyone is perfectly equal and happy in terms of wealth, health, and opportunities, everyone on the planet. But the equality comes at one cost, and that is you you must accept that this will eliminate all forms of individual expression and creativity, except for one single outlet for creativity. This is great for you. And for example, you could say, Well, I want to do this, but uh everyone's gonna lose their individuality except they can express themselves in pottery, uh, acting, mate, painting, playing music, altering the human face, if you will. But you decide for everyone on the planet.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:32

So I decide for everyone on the planet?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:34

Yeah, you you say, Well, I want everyone to be equal in wealth, health, happiness, everyone's gonna be happy, but they're gonna give up some individuality, except this one outlet that everyone will be able to do. And the two questions here that is put forth is A, would you choose to do that? Do you think that the cost benefit is okay? Would you choose to create that kind of society? And if you do say, Yeah, I would do that for the sake of whatever, what outlet would you give the world so that they at least have some expression instead of zero? I know, I know. It's you gotta you gotta love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:15

I mean, I have a lot of thoughts going on in my mind at the moment because I'm I would love to hear them.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:19

Give me the thoughts, you mind?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:21

Okay, so uh when I when I hear that question, I think, gosh, it would be nice to get rid of all the poverty and the world and all the suffering and sickness and all the inequality, like people that are born to really unfortunate circumstances that has nothing to do with them. They're just unfortunately that number that has given them those circumstances, and that would be beautiful to be able to remove that. I also then think, well, is the human experience you know, if you make life too easy for people, uh, you know, what does that mean for the human experience? I mean, are we meant to it's easy for me to say here sitting in my you know penthouse apartment in the eastern suburbs of Sydney to say, oh, you know, you're meant to struggle. I mean, that's you know, is that is that easy for me to say because I'm sitting here and yes, I've been through struggles, but I never had to worry about having enough food to eat. Um, but I think there has there is something to to struggling, and struggling means different things to different people. But if I look at it sort of across the av like across the world and all taking out all the highs and the lows, it probably would seem like a good idea, probably. I think the the benefit would probably outweigh the downside, and I'm assuming this wizard can just remove all the human ways that we could stuff this up because it seems that like we've managed to stuff up everything that we we touch. It's just seemed like something innate in the human being to be able to just take something that was great and just destroy it with stupidity and greed. So assuming he can do all those things, then yeah, I think I would. And then I've got to choose between drumming and bonsai.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:51

Um gosh, if you ask me right now, like I'm more into drums than I am into bonsai because I I feel like I'm not as advanced as a drummer as I am as a bonsai practitioner because I took so many years off. But if I look at my gift to the world, I think there are already a lot of great drummers. Um, could I be a top one percent drummer? Maybe. I think anything's possible, but I think there's already enough great drummers in the world. I don't think there's enough great bonsai artists, so I'd probably have to stick with bonsai if it was my gift to the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:19

Wow, that's that's cool because I think bonsai is so deep that that's uh really cool. Well, I appreciate you sharing your thought process because I think that's really great. Well, look, I I can tell you that going into this, uh of all my guests I've had before, you're one of the per people I knew the least about, but was maybe the most intrigued about. And you you haven't disappointed. I mean, uh I think you know, I originally called we were gonna call this leadership and aesthetics, and I and I just have to point out we didn't, I didn't there was so much to talk to you about. I didn't go into specific leaders in your life or anything about leadership, but I I clearly take from you uh and the way you are and who and your passions of of what you've told me as an entrepreneur as a kid, and when you find out you can't do something, I mean you are uh to me a very inspiring leader who walks the walk. You know, you you don't need to give a lecture or about leadership because you are leadership. You live that. You you you go hard on what you believe in and the stuff you don't believe in. Great for whoever wants to do it. And I think you know that that to me is is just um really inspiring. So I I thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:35

Oh, thank you. I I really enjoyed the chat. As I said, I was a bit apprehensive, um, not apprehensive, but like just curious as to what the conversation was going to be like. So thank you. I think you're a great interviewer. I think the questions were really um caught me off guard and and got me to think and got me to open up and and be vulnerable and just be honest. So I hope people enjoyed listening to that. And um thank you for the opportunity to talk to you. And I wish you all the best with the podcast and looking forward to meeting you in person one day, either in your part of the world or ours, or perhaps neutral territory. Um, yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

Absolutely. All right. Well, thanks for your time. And until we meet in person, I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:13

Thanks, Lonnie.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:14

All right, take care. Cheers.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:15

See you, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:16

Thanks so much for tuning in. You know, we're on the journey in this aesthetic world together, and I firmly believe, and I know in my heart, that if we stay together, we'll be better than apart. Now I have a little favor to ask you. If you would just hit the subscribe button, it would mean a great deal to me personally because it actually your one action helps us to enhance the channel and bring you even more great content.