Chase Cooper: The Truth About Golf Swing Technique (It’s Not What You Think) | Part One

Golf swing inconsistency explained: Chase Cooper on low point, contact, and face control. 

In this episode, we’re joined by top US golf coach Chase Cooper—co-host of Golf Beneath the Surface and a self-confessed “tech nerd”—to dive into what actually controls your ball striking in golf.

We set out to talk golf swing technique… but what follows is a completely different way of thinking about it.

Chase breaks down the fundamentals that truly matter—low point control, strike quality, and face control—and explains why most golfers get lost chasing positions instead of focusing on what actually impacts performance.

If you’ve ever felt like your swing works one week and disappears the next, this episode will help you understand why—and what you can do about it.

This is part one of a two-part conversation. In part two, Chase analyses our swings and tells us exactly what we need to change to reach our goals this season.

If you’re serious about improving your golf, this is one you won’t want to miss.

🎙️ About the show
How Low Can You Go explores how amateur golfers can improve their game, lower their scores, and actually understand what moves the needle—without wasting time on the wrong things. 

🎧 Listen now and start turning bad rounds into better golf.

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🏨 Big shout out to The Leddie Hotel on Scotland’s Golf Coast.

🔗 Link to Golf Beneath The Surface

If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to check out Golf Beneath the Surface here:
  👉https://open.spotify.com/show/4XlY6Yt0QJkVQ8wXyZkG3I

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Transcript

Section A

SPEAKER_01 0:00

But that kind of hit me like low point control is is king of it, just it's controlling how how much we hit the ground, where we hit the ground. I'll say, hey, you just you're the pilot of this airplane. And so the key is can we make the movement and then can we land the airplane where we want to consistently? The other thing I say a lot is contact cures a lot of problems. Good contact, solid contact cures a lot of problems.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

That is the voice of Chase Cooper, one of the top coaches in the US, and in his own words, a bit of a technique nerd. So, yes, we are talking technique today, but hopefully not in a way that's gonna leave you lost in swing position. This is about what actually controls your strike, your ball flight, and why your swing can feel grit one day and then feel like it completely disappeared the next. If that sounds familiar, I think you're gonna enjoy this one. This is how low can you go. How low can you go? Okay, welcome back everyone once again to How Low Can You Go, the golf improvement podcast, Born in Scotland, the show where we speak to some of the brightest minds in the world of golf coaching, golf performance, golf improvement, because we want to get better at golf, isn't that right, Chris?

SPEAKER_00 1:38

That is right, Dave. We're trying to get to our mountain top and we need help to get there. We do indeed.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

So we're continuing in that vein today. We want to talk about technique today. We have had amazing guests recently. Last week we talked about fitness with Chris Finn. We've also had Carl Morris on, we've had Dr. Raymond Pryor on to talk about mental performance, skills, and shots with Adam Young. But today we really want to dive into technique because we obviously know that that is so, so crucial to getting better at golf. So we are delighted today to welcome Chase Cooper, who was recently voted by Golf Digest as one of the top coaches in the state of Oklahoma. Chase also co-presents Golf Beneath the Surface, the podcast with Dr. Raymond Pryor, who was on our show recently, and that went down really, really well. So, Chase, welcome to Hilo.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Can you go? How are you? I'm good, Dave Chris. Thanks for having me on. I have to ask, so selfishly is this podcast is for you guys, then it's not for your listeners. You don't care about your listeners. You guys just want to get better. Is that what I'm hearing?

SPEAKER_02 2:47

We are selfish, yeah, absolutely. You know, it this is it. We just want to get better, and that, you know, we want to speak to top coaches. And I love it. But the the the hope is that vicariously others who are listening might pick up some snippets of wisdom along the way and hopefully can get better with their game as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

One 100%. We were we were talking off air and and I you know shot a podcast with Hal Sutton, and it was the same thing. Like selfishly, I was like, man, this is the most fun ever. I just get to talk to all these these you know giants of the game and my heroes. And so I'm I I'm in the same boat even with Dr. Raymond Pryor, who's an absolute genius, and you know, he was he did a great job on you guys' pod, and I'm learning every every time I talk to him. So yeah, I think I think deep down we're all we're all kind of just wanting to figure out how to help our own game and how to perform a little bit better when we do do these podcasts like this.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Yeah, definitely. And on that note, just to give you a very, very brief backstory of uh my journey and Chris's journey. So I was as bad a golfer as you will ever see, Chase. Um probably that was about 10 years ago. In the last three to four years, I've probably got to the point where I'm a okay golfer, shall we say, Chris? A reasonable golfer, I'm a mid-handicapper, which I often say is a miracle that I'm actually a mid-handicapper now. Um, but I really, really want to get to single figures. So that's kind of why we started this podcast. And Chris, you go ahead, you share your story too.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

I've been I'm floating in and around one, two, three handicapped, but I've never reached like what would be my goal of scratch and consistently play there and feel like I'm comfortable just enjoying my golf and feeling free, essentially. So we've as you say, we've had some great names on and that have been helping us get there. But I think a lot like what Dave said is technique for me, it's just the small adjustments that I think I need. And I think with your help, that will no pressure, but uh with your help, I'm hoping I can take snippets and Dave and I can just like keep on progressing on our journey, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

No, I love it. And again, I love what you guys are doing and relating it back to your your listeners, and you're both at different levels, but you're both, you know. And I like to say too, as a player when I was growing up, I thought like tour players were so much different than a scratch golfer or your average club golfer, but they're all we're all kind of junkies and we're all kind of crazy, and we're all just trying to get better in any way, shape, or form we can at whatever level we're at. So we're all us golfers are all very, we're all all made very or we're all you know very similar people when it comes to all this stuff. And so no matter what you're what the level you are, we're all just trying to learn.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Absolutely. And um, for anyone maybe who is less familiar with your work, Chase, do you want to just give us a bit of uh a kind of rundown of your background and your kind of I guess your approach to coaching, because I think you, by your own admission, are a bit of a technique nerd, I think is what you've said in the past.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

So yeah, just tell us a bit more about that, if you wouldn't mind. Yeah. So growing up, played high school golf, was a state champion, uh played collegiately at the University of Nevada, so played Division I golf, did the, did all the things that most of I would say a lot of the coaches, at least in the US, kind of go that route. We all played, a lot of us played collegiate golf, and then I turned pro, played for eight years, and spent way too much money and didn't, didn't, didn't play. I needed, I needed Dr. Pryor's, Pryor's uh mental knowledge way, way before now, way, way back then. Um and then by I was I was always interested in golf swing. I I had a a really good instructor kind of changed my changed my life with how I played and and taught me a lot of things about the golf swing. I was a super inside out, stuck underneath flip kind of big pushes and hooks for the longest time. And and he taught me I could swing left and not hit it left. And honestly, that whole concept changed my life. Um and and I after I I kind of quit playing, I was teaching, and and there just wasn't, I I didn't have, you know, I didn't have many opportunities here at the time. I was in Oklahoma where I am now, and I didn't have have many opportunities. And I was posting on a on a forum called Golf WRX back in the forum days when they were really cool and we were having a bunch of debates. And I and it's funny because some big, huge names in the industry were on there. Mike Granado from Athletic Motion Golf was on there, and we had a ton of debates before he became what he is today. Dana Dahlquist was a kind of a friend of mine on there too, another big name, works with Bryson in the industry. And anyway, we were we were just having a lot of awesome debates, and it was really where we I learned a ton about the golf swing. And you get two heavy hitters going at it and getting to in a bit getting into a big argument. That's where you really start to learn a lot of things. And unfortunately, there's there's not as much of an avenue for that now, but it was really cool. Well, anyway, long story short, I randomly saw uh a guy post about needing an needing a uh an uh basically was griping about PGA pros and he he was starting a business in Scottsdale. Well, come to find out he was starting a full-body 3D motion capture business that had sensors all over the body. Think of like Apple Watches from the hand to the shoulder to the knee to the foot, all over. We had 18 sensors all over the body. And I happened to send him a message. He he he had seen some of my some of my communication on there and and had me come out. And next thing you know, I'm the director of sales and education for a company called MySwing Golf out in Scottsdale, Arizona. And it's kind of like golf, I kind of say it was kind of like Golf Tech on steroids. So Golf Tech has Golf Tech has two sensors and we had 18. And that opened up a huge, huge, huge world of of biomechanics and getting to to work with all these biomechanists and and and the some of the smartest people in the industry. And so I traveled the world. I I I went to Denmark, I went to Sweden, I went to you guys' neck of the woods, and I was given seminars on 3D motion capture before the marker list, before all this stuff, all this stuff came out. And that's kind of how I became the the tech nerd that I am because I was seeing all these swings in 3D and seeing, I mean, we were capturing thousands and thousands and thousands of swings. And I actually met Rice and Deschambo through this company and and was able to consult with him and his coach at the time and did a lot of really cool stuff, and then met Hal Sutton, and then Hal ended up offering me a job, and then I moved to Houston and started teaching full-time and was there for eight years, and then moved back here a couple years ago. And so I've I've been teaching full-time for about 12 years. Um, and it was again the journey was perfect because it it kind of shaped who I am along the way. And the man, the the the 3D motion capture stuff was um an education course on steroids. Like it just like completely opened my eyes on how the body moves and how everybody's different, and how females are different than males, and how body types are different. And I was it was just I was it was feeding into the to the addiction already because it was exactly how I already thought. Not that I knew all of it, but it was just how my brain worked, and it just just really opened my eyes and and gave me a great education on how the body moves and and and shaped who I am as an instructor.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

And I'm gonna say maybe about 20 years ago, maybe even further back, maybe like kind of in around the 80s, 90s, I think there were a lot of like kind of models that were introduced that it almost became like this is the only way that you need to do it. And if you don't fit into this model, you're doing it wrong. And based on what you've said there, like how has that changed? Do you find that you like particular models with your students, or do you tend to try and just work around their own style?

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah, it's a great question. I I think I think most instructors would be lying if we if we didn't say we didn't have preferences. And I think like I think we all have certain preferences, and a lot of them are based off of how we swing or how we grew up or the things we like and don't like about our golf swing. And I think when you first when most instructors just first start teaching, it's all based off what we know and what we feel. And then as you teach more, you start to get a bigger Rolodex of tools to basically help with our players. You know, I think in a perfect world, if we have, you know, uh an Adam Scott looking player that comes in that's nice and tall and skinny and moves really well, and like we we've got carte blanche to do whatever we want to and doesn't have any limitations, it's pretty simple and we're gonna build pretty golf swings. Where it becomes tricky is when they've had a shoulder replacement or they've got limited internal or external rotation of the trail arm or they can't turn it to, you know, move their hips very well, then everything starts to get funky because we as humans are gonna figure out a way to put the club on the golf ball. Um we're gonna figure out a way to move in a way that gives us, you know, uh we think gives us the best chance to bring the club back to the ground. And so, you know, the the term now that you hear all the time is matchups. And I and I think like we all, as as as we get to a certain point of helping enough players, we just have to understand those matchups. Um and so I would say no, there's not a model. I I don't like a ton of movement. I would say I'm pretty, I'm a pretty, if if I had a model, it'd be pretty vanilla. It would be pretty, I'm a big backswing guy. That's the one thing that we, you know, we would we're gonna talk about it in a little bit, but like backswings to me are so important. Um and and especially like if a tour player comes in and and has a unique backswing but can can get the club back to the ball very consistently, then it's obviously not as important. But you take your club level golfers, your 15, 20 handicaps, even your five or 10 handicaps. I'm I'm a I will plant my flag on the on the stance of backswings matter um because it just it gives you way more options on the downswing. A lot of times we see weak fades or we see big snap hooks because the backswing wasn't in the right spot. And so really our only option was to move this way. And if we're not perfect in the timing of it, it makes it much easier to screw it up. And so, you know, I I would just say if I'm a model guy, it's really good setup, or it's a consistent setup and a in a and a functional backswing for the type of shots that we're trying to hit. But it's not, I don't mind a little bit of movement off the ball at times. I do teach very centered pivots too, and I teach a little bit more of a stack and tilt pivot at times too, depending on the player and depending on their struggles. But there are um, there's just too many outliers. There's too many guys on tour that have done it certain ways that it can work for certain people if they're built that that that way. Um, so I I think like having preconceived notions of like what I'm gonna do with a person just by seeing them or by guessing what they're doing, that you know, they're doing in their swing, I think is very dangerous. I think they like, you know, that's why I love guys like Scott Cox that has seven different models or 15 different models of of patterns that he coaches. And I think it's just not that everybody needs that many, but I think it's really important to have options because every time you think you figured out the holy grail of the golf swing, somebody comes in and cannot do that that same move that you thought. Or Chris, like if you found a swing thought that worked that one week, it just doesn't, it doesn't work forever. And so we've got to be able to make those adjustments to help as many students as we can. Because if we can't, I like to have this the saying like if all I have is a hammer, if all I'm fixing is this one thing, say it's a pivot move and this is all I'm fixing, I better see a bunch of nails. But if a bunch of a bunch of you know uh Phillips head screws come in, I'm not gonna help them. Or if if if they need a wrench, I'm not gonna help them. And that's as an instructor, I think that our job is to be able to try to help a 100% of the people. I don't think we, I don't think we'll ever bat that high of a percentage, but that's the goal.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Yeah, and I I remember when I was uh growing up and I had some coaching um over at Glen Eagles over here, and the every sum every winter, sorry, we would go in and they would say like who's your favorite golfer? And then basically they would film your swing, and then like mine would always be Tiger Woods. Like we had people that were Sergio Garcia, someone had Jim Furick, which I think they told them to kind of like hit it to the side. Move away from that. Move away from that. I don't have those videos. Yeah, but that I found that that was like uh one of the kind of um what would you say when I was getting my lessons, it would be like, right, Tiger was my but then at the same same time when you look at my swing now, it's completely different to and I think back then my swing was not like Tiger Woods either. Do you know what I mean? So no, that's interesting to know that they have like some people have like 16 different kinds of like things that they go off of with lessons and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Yeah, and and again, like to to shout out Scott Cox, like he he's got a bunch of models, and there's you know, the there's a planar, non-planar, there's elephant trunk, there's all kinds of different ones depending on how they kind of move. And and look, I I will put a lot of my player swings up against other players or against certain I try to kind of keep it in a model from a build, from a bodybuild standpoint. Um and so I I I think that I I still do that. And I do it just to say, look, like here's something that we I see that's that in your back swing is causing you to do this on the downswing. And let's look at this player who doesn't do it that way. And now let's video your swing and let's kind of take some comparisons and let's see, and let's see how it all fits within the puzzle. Um, you know, I I kind of, if you guys came in for a golf lesson, I, you know, I kind of segue into this. Like, I always tell my players or new students kind of the same thing. I'm like, look, I've got two styles of coaching. I've got the biomechanic style where we're gonna dive into, I've got force plates, I've got 3D motion capture, I've got all the bells and whistles, and then I've got the caveman style. And you're usually gonna get a a couple pieces of the kinematics and the kinetics, or the forces in the motion, you're gonna get a piece of that from me, but then you're gonna get a lot of caveman from me too. And so, like when I jokingly say caveman, there's three pillars to the caveman, the caveman approach. Number one is low point. Can we, and I use airplane analogies all the time, can we land the airplane where we want to land the airplane? So that's kind of step step one. And there's there's a vertical and a horizontal component to low point. And the vertical component is up and down, am I hitting the ground or not hitting the ground? The horizontal component is where and that that brings up kind of level two. Level two is contact, and that's the horizontal component. If if we're a right-handed golfer and the airplane's landing too far away from us, that's a heel strike. And if it's landing too close to us, that's a toe strike. And so, like those two are the first two fundamentals that every golfer needs to understand how to do if they want to play at any kind of level. Can we land the airplane where we want to? Can we can we hit the ground where we want to? A couple inches past the golf ball for good low point control. PJ Tour average for a seven iron is four to five, middle of their divot, not first touch to the ground, but middle of their divot is four and a half inches past the golf ball. Brooks Kepka is nine inches past, Justin Thomas is nine inches past. They're both they're the middle of their disc is nine inches past the golf ball with a seven iron. So it's crazy, right? But if you if you really think about that, I I'll I'll tell this story. I I asked Hal one day. We were given a uh we were doing a little school with a bunch of people. And I was like, Hal, how many iron shots did you hit on the PJ tour? And how Hal won 14 times out there, he was out there for a long time. He's a legend. He said, I probably hit two. And he he was just guessing, but he goes, I probably hit two million iron shots on tour. I was like, okay, cool. How many did you hit heavy? He thought for a minute he's this, you know, burglarly gruff man. He was like, 20. I'm like, I'm like, how many did you hit thin? He thought for a minute, 200,000. It's like, hmm. And that kind of, I mean, we were already talking low point, and I look at angle of attack and all this stuff all the time with track man, but that kind of hit me like low point control is is king. And a lot of my mentors uh talk about that a lot, and uh it just it's it's controlling how how much we hit the ground, where we hit the ground. Adam Young talks about it a lot too, like the depth of the arc, like it's so important. And I think if you're not if you're not focused on that, so like that goes into again, and one and two can be interchangeable. We can do contact first and low point second, but low point and contact for for my caveman approach is literally the the starting point. Can we get these two and can I get my players to do it without a ball and then a phone ball and then a golf ball and then full speed and all that stuff?

SPEAKER_02 18:57

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SPEAKER_01 19:16

Let's get back into it. And then the third one everyone struggles with, but it's still part of the equation that's face control. And so most players that come in don't have any problem controlling the path. Now they may have a hard time moving the path, but they are consistent with the path. The path tends to stay fairly consistent, but we're all over the place with face angle. And and even like, and I use the analogy too, even Scotty, yeah, Dave raises raises his hand. Um, but even like Scotty Sheffature players are are still gonna be, they're gonna be two or three degrees off at times with face angle. And and and some of it's a combination of contact, a little Healy, and the and the face is a degree open and it and they miss it 15 yards short, right? But face control is really, really, really, really difficult. But that's the third fill, the third pillar. So can we hit the ground where we want to from a vertical component standpoint? Too much divot, not enough. And with kids, I'll say, hey, you just you're the pilot of this airplane and you just crash landed this airplane. Those poor people in that airplane didn't make it, or you know, they never got back to the ground. And then it's can I land the airplane in the middle of the runway, middle of the golf ball, or is it too much on the heel, too much on the toe? And then once I do that, now it goes into if we're struggling with fades, can I hit can I do the same two things? Can I control the contact? Can I flush it and curve it left? Or can I go the other way? And so some of this is goes into kind of that blend between um technique and skill, but it's still part of the whole equation to playing good golf. And I I've gotten into making my players do way more of this type of stuff than oh, your right elbow's got to get more externally rotated at P5 on the downswing. Because the argument I make is that I can make a Rory McRoy backswing or a Sheffler backswing or a Bryson backswing, which is a little bit across the line, and I can hit off the heel or the toe, and I can slice it or I can hook it. I can make a more laid-off backswing look like John Rom and I can hook it. I can not as well, but I can hit a draw or I can fade it. So people that say the backswings don't matter in in a in a in a wide casting a wide net over all of golf, okay, I can see why, but for specific players, I disagree. Like I want their backswing to match what they're trying to do with their results. And so the key is can we make the movement and then can we land the airplane where we want to consistently? And to me, those two, those two things are separate because again, I can make any move in the backswing and land it where I want to. And so, like one of my biggest pet peeves is when people say, Oh, well, Chase, when I try to do your move, I hit it off the heel. And I'm like, okay, but so did you do my move? Yeah, it looked really good. Okay. Then why didn't you send me a video and now we'll work on hitting it off the toe? Like we're literally you're the other thing I say a lot is contact cures a lot of problems. Good contact, solid contact cures a lot of problems. So a lot of times we think we did everything wrong when we hit it off the toe, or heaven forbid we hit it off the heel when literally it's you're an inch off. Off. And so we've got to be able, I think, as an industry to separate the movement from where that dang club is landing. And I think it's so important. And I love what Adam Young, because Adam Young preaches it. I've been preaching it for a long time. And I and I love that direction. It's not all about contact. I mean, obviously to play good golf it is, but you you need to move in certain patterns to make contact easier. But man, we as humans are really good with our hands and really good with our fingers and like getting the only thing touching the club is our hands and fingers. And so getting that club to move and land where we want to is so incredibly important.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yes. No, absolutely. And you're quite right, because Adam is one of the best at what he teaches with regard to the big three that you've just described there. He and John Sherman on their show, they talk about the big three a lot. Uh low point, face contact, and uh face control, face angle. Um one thing that Adam Young I think does say that might vary from your approach is he's one of those guys who's like backswing, let's not die on a ditch over backswing here. Uh, you know, uh there's many ways that you can do it, which I think is fair. But you said earlier that you do like to see your players with a particular or or close to a kind of particular move with a backswing. Is that too because you think that that definitely enhances those big three, those, those contact big three?

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yeah, I think, you know, let's talk takeaways. I used to be a takeaway, um, I used to really, really, really dive into making perfect takeaways. And I I don't as much anymore, but like if if a typical player comes in, um, and this may or may not be one of you guys, um, comes in and the takeaway is a little inside and the club face gets a little bit open and the backswing gets a little bit flat or or even the arms start to lift to get to the top, and now momentum carries us over. We we're again we're setting a foundation for wipey fades, for pulls and wipey slices. We just are. And so the momentum of how we get to the top and how we we transition down. I tell players a lot of times, like, if I want to make a backswing change because of the way the downswing's working, I'll tell them, I'm like, look, if you can keep making this backswing and then also make the transition piece work, okay, I'm fine with that. Because remember, the downswing takes takes that long. It's the snap of a finger or of your fingers. And so we don't have time to manipulate it too much. So, like, if I'm gonna go down this full route of like backswings don't matter, backswings don't matter, backswings don't matter, man, we've got to be athletic enough and we've got to be organized enough to make the downswing work. And it and it just becomes a challenge. And so I would also say to like, I think Adam's point, I think Adam makes it he makes all the sense in the world with high, high, high, high-level players that can organize it all. And if they've just made this backswing their whole life and they can also do the big three, then cool. I'm good with it. Yeah, you're not gonna touch it. You don't want to touch that. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask him, can we work the golf ball? Because if we can't, if it's only fades every time, then there's gonna be times where it's gonna turn into overfades. Because the golf swing, unfortunately, I would love for your listeners to believe this, but it's just you're to think that that they can keep their golf swing in the same place forever. They're hitting it great this week and it's just gonna stay there forever. It does not exist. I'm sorry, listeners, it just does not work. And so the golf swing is changing. And so it's one of the reasons why I like my players to work the golf ball. I want them to curve it. I want them to hit draws and fades, not with driver. I'm with, I'm with Fawcett on on driver curving one direction for the most part. But I want them, I want them curving irons. I want them hitting draws and fades, not to fire at flags per se, but to balance out their golf swing. And so going back to this, if the backswing's the same every time, and it's and it's let's just say not ideal, it's not pretty. It's super late, like my one of the one of my non-negotiables, I hate laid off. I hate laid off and open. I don't mind laid off is okay, but if it's laid off and open, it just requires a lot of manipulations to square up the face. And so if a really good player comes in and he's laid off and open and he's grabbing about fades, I'm gonna say, look, you can you can close the face more coming down or we can strengthen the grip. But like the way this club has to be forced to get down to the golf ball is gonna make you steepen it and it's gonna make you have to pull the handle down and it's gonna tend to require you to keep the face open because the direction that club path is traveling, you're gonna, it's gonna lead to pull cuts and wipey cuts. And so, yeah, you can set up to it and aim way right and hit pulls and hit it more solid, or we can just get the backswing a little bit more on plane or a little bit more across. And it for most 90% of the golfers, it tends to help. And so, again, I think when we start getting into talent and skill, I'm gonna be way more lenient and say, hey, this player's adapted, uh, he's good enough to make this work, but he needs to understand his pattern. And if it gets more laid off than this, it's gonna lead typically lead to more pull fades. And as long as he recognizes that and has some balancing act in there that he can build into a system, then I'm totally good with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Yeah, no, I I definitely think with the see how you were saying like being able to shape, like obviously with Scott Fawcett, keeping it like one shape, probably with your driver, but then with your irons, you want to see more shaping. I feel like over the last couple years, I've just stuck to the one shape. Whereas before I used to love playing when I when I got lessons when I was younger, where they'd say, like, right, okay, you've got a tree in front of you, and the the greens behind it, and you've got to play like a draw around it. Like, what do you do? But I feel like I have that in my arsenal, but like I'm now it I almost feel like I need to stick to that one shot. And just to go up on what you were saying about like um with golfers, see, for example, my swing will change all the time throughout the season, and it's like one thing was working for maybe two weeks and I'm playing good golf, but then it's like not. Is that is that just constantly going? I know I've obviously played a lot of golf in my life and it's been happening like that, but are pros feeling the exact same where like things are changing consistently all the time? Does that happen all the time for pros as well?

SPEAKER_01 28:13

I here's how I would here's how I would answer that. Number one, pros practice in such a way with their most of them, most of them down the PG tour have their coach with them almost every week, and they they pretty much always have a a block station set up to where alignment is the same, grip is the same. I mean, look at Scheffler. Sheffler has the training grip, he hits it every, every day. They have track men on and they're checking their numbers every day. And so they have not only are they have their own kind of checks and balances, but they've got their coaches there too that are saying, hey man, we're getting a little inside and a little laid off. And like you, with some of the coaches that we've heard, I mean, uh JSR John Scott Ratten talked about this with Helma last year, and he said that, you know, he and he talked about on our pod how it would, you know, he was kind of massaging it throughout the year and they were trying to kind of build, get it back to a certain point and build it up. So, number one, yes, their golf swings do change. The reason it doesn't look to be as much is because they keep it more balanced and organized than we do, than you guys do, because they just have their eyeballs on them all the time, they're hitting with trackman every time, they're getting video every time, and so they're checking it. The other thing, Chris, I would say to you is like if we're live, and this is what happens a lot with my high school golfers, if you're living and dying off of every shot, your golf swing is gonna change a lot more because your brain, your brain is getting hit every time with trauma when it does not work the way it wants to, or the way you wanted it to. And so then it's going to revert back either to the old motor pattern that feels more comfortable, or it's gonna be stuck in that kind of kind of limbo, that kind of limbo. Yeah. And then the other thing is, you know, as as Raymond talks about all the time, your your body's your brain's seeking comfort. And so it it loves that swing thought that works until it doesn't, and now your your whole glass glass house just got shattered and now you're in a tough spot, and now you're searching for the next swing thought. Well, each of these swing thoughts are gonna move you somewhere, you know. And and the point I would make is like one, swing thoughts, not that's why, that's why I'm really big on like, did we video, did we make the backswing we wanted? And then what happened? Well, I didn't hit it solid, so I or I felt this. No, no, no, was the backswing where it wanted to be? Then what happened? Well, the backswing is good, but I hit off the hill. Okay, now can we can we organize it? Because again, I say it all the time, golf swings are changing it no matter what. It's like it's like your car. If you let go of the steering wheel of your car, well, hopefully we drive straight for a while, but at some point it's gonna veer off. And it's not the veer-off that's the problem, it's the correction that's the problem. Did we recognize the veer off and then did we overcorrect? Or did we, you know, oh well, I'm fading it and it's okay. I like to hit draws, but I'm fading it right now, but I'm playing good golf. So I'm hitting it where I want to and I'm fading and it's good. And it's like, oh, well, now that fade is now a pull fade. Oh, that cut more than I wanted to, but it still worked out okay, but I'm still playing good golf, so it's good. And then it's like, oh my gosh, I gotta go get a lesson. I'm slicing it. And then you go see your instructor and you're like, I don't know what happened. And then it's like, yes, you do. Six weeks ago, you were drawing it. Two weeks later, you were fading it, or you were okay with the fade because it was working in the right direction. It's like this little fade turned from a four-right path to a 10-left path really quickly. And now you're like, well, now I need surgery and now I got to work through it all, right? And so that's that's a long-winded, excited way to say, like, can we draw it? Can we fade it? Can we keep our swing balance? If I was gonna build a perfect model, I would say slight fades with driver. Three wood hybrids are draw biased typically because of the loft and the way they're designed. Four iron down, whatever clubs you have, four iron to six iron should be fairly straight. Seven iron, eight iron, nine iron down start to get a little more draw-biased. If I could build that perfect pattern just because it keeps swing direction kind of neutral, it kind of keeps us locked in. And then from there, it's was the setup, was the back swing good on every swing we made? And if it was, then can we curve it a little bit both directions? Can we find the middle of the face on every swing we make? And like that's obviously that's a pipe dream, but that's kind of how I teach and I kind of organize my kids to kind of get them in. How's the setup? How's the back swing good? Are we hitting it solid? Yes. Can you curve it both ways? Can you push draw it? Can you pull fade it fairly quickly? I want them to be more on one side or the other, but I want them to be able to grab the other one. Why? Because when they start hooking it, they can bring it back, or it starts to get too much fade, they can also bring it back.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

I hear that a lot actually from voices I respect. Johnny, the head pro at our home course, who Chris and I work with quite regularly, he loves everyone hitting a fade with the driver. What why is that? What why do you feel that that is slightly preferable?

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yeah, there's a couple reasons why. Number one, the ball doesn't spin as much as it used to. So when so I'm 41, when I was growing up, and in and in high school, I went to high school from like 99 to 03, and we were 90, 97, 98, 99, somewhere around there, and I'm not gonna get my dates perfect, but was sometime around where they came out, started coming out with the three-piece golf ball, and they went from the Baladas and the Tour professionals to these Pro V's and more of the more of the modern golf ball. And so when I grew up playing with the Balladas, if you cut it, the ball spun too much and it got up in the air, and it especially in Oklahoma where it was windy, it went nowhere. So you almost you almost had to draw it. So a lot of our old school instruction was draw, draw, draw. The fade was terrible. No one wanted to hit a fade because they couldn't keep the spin off of it. And then wood drivers not stuff. And so then the Pro V came out, and now it became a little bit easier to do it, but it's still the um equipment wasn't quite right. So from a ball spin standpoint, now we can hit we can hit between two down and five up on a on a driver. We can launch it into the optimal conditions, and we can spin it at the optimal conditions and we can get it to fade. Like I hit nothing but cuts with my driver. If I draw it or hit it straight, it was on accident. And my I just got fit for the new tiless driver, and my launch is I swing it about 115, 120. My my launch was 11 degrees, 11 to 12 degrees, and I spun it between 22 and 2500, and they every one of them, every one of them cut. And like that's what our draw numbers were 10 years ago, you know, and so now we can keep the ball, it can be flat cuts. And so that's that's the first thing. The second thing is if we hit it, if we hit draws, we typically, I'm gonna say typically, it they they typically become toe balls, which takes more spin off of it, and they end up falling out of the sky. So we end up getting really low spin golf balls that are low spin shots that start to knuckle and they don't stay in the air. And then the last thing is that meaning sorry, sorry, sorry to jump in, James.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Scott Fawce had said that the other day, is that his knuckle ball? Sorry if I'm sounding a bit ignorant. What does that mean, knuckle ball? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 34:23

So think of out of the rough. If I have a uh a thick lie out of the rough and I hit a seven iron that normally goes 175 and it flies 200 yards, it's that's that's a ball that's somebody that's a ball, yeah. That's a ball that's supposed to have seven to nine thousand or seven thousand spin and it has four thousand or three thousand or twenty five hundred, so it's literally not spinning. Spin actually keeps the ball, makes the ball go straighter. Think of like a like a in a baseball pitcher. There was a there was a pitch called the knuckleball, and it literally would like wiggle and move in the air and it wouldn't go a certain direction. Backspin creates accuracy. More backspin is an we we hit our wedges more accurate than we hit a four-iron because of backspin, because it's spinning more. So it's harder to get the spin axis to get too far offline. When we have a knuckleball, it literally just floats and there's no controlling it. The the famously the Taylor made slider was the first driver that moved weight way forward. This was what, 10 years ago, 12 years ago? Moved the weight way forward and it created the, they were looking for 17 launch and 1700 spin, which was kind of their their marketing ploy, but it but it's what they got into. And what we found was anything under 2,000, man, the golf balls would go everywhere. You would hit it and it would look good and it would literally fall down to the right on a lot of speed. It were really weird shots. Versus if you get a spinny driver, it's gonna stay in the air and it's much harder to get it to curve as as much as a very, very low spin. And so when we're talking knuckleballs that just kind of wiggle in the air, they typically have no spin. It would be a fly or lie, that that kind of concept.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

And then and then the last thing on why I prefer phase, if I give you a 60 degree and I open it up as far when we were growing up, if you aimed, if you open the face with a 60, you would aim more left. But if we actually put a magnet on the club, it doesn't go more left. It actually points more up. So it's really hard from a physics standpoint to hit a cut lob wedge, to hit a cut pitching wedge. You can do it, but it's much easier to draw it. So if you have to draw one around a tree at 130 yards or fade one around a tree at 130 yards, you're gonna typically pick the draw because it's loft, it's much easier to curve it left than it is to curve it, curve it right. From the other side of the aisle, it's much easier to hit a controlled low-cut foreiron than it is to hit a controlled draw foreiron because again, face angle, when I start taking this face from 60 degrees to zero and I open the face, it's much easier. But when I de-oft it, it actually closes it down and it or when I when I close it, it actually de-lofts it and I can't keep it in the air. So that's why driver becomes fadier. It's easier to hit. And that's why you typical slicers come in for lessons and like, man, I hit my eight-iron really good or my nine-iron really good. Yeah, because you hit high cuts with it. You hit high cuts with it, but then you can't hit the driver because that high cut with a nine-iron is a still a fairly square face. When we open it, it just points higher. But we open the face the same amount with driver and it's pointed 50 yards right, and it's the wipiest cut, and it makes you want to quit.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

And just to be clear, just on what you said earlier, that you like uh players to be able to hit both of those shapes. Am I right in saying that what you're meaning there is that not necessarily that you're encouraging players to go out tomorrow and I'm just gonna draw one into this pen and then I'm gonna fade one into the next pin. It's not for that. It's to try and balance out your swing and keep things in check so that to use your car analogy, you don't end up veering so far off, and then the adjustment is just knocking everything out of sync completely.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Yeah, 100%. I would say if if you can use your stock shot, use your stock shot 90-90% of the time, let's say. I I do like my players to work the golf ball into the wind a little bit more than I did growing up. I think, I think it's the better, more players that I've spent time with, the better players that play in a lot of wind talk about working it more. And I've found that it's a much, much easier. But I I make that now analogy all the time. I say, look, your golf swing's always moving. I want you to work, especially your irons. I want you to be able to work your irons for balance and for survival. Survival meaning when you're in the trees, when you're in the woods and you have to work it, I want you to have the ability to do it. But I also want you to be able to do it to balance out your golf swing to keep it, keep it under wraps. And and the last thing I'll leave you with on this is like I've had so many players say, Man, Chase, when I'm in the woods, when I'm in the trees and I have to hit a miracle shot, I'm so good at it. But when I'm when I'm in the middle of the fairway and it's just a vanilla shot, I'm I'm a lot of times I'm not as I'm not as precise. And so there's there's a focus thing, there's a psychological thing in there, but it's it's also just a clear intention in being being athletic and hitting a golf shot. And so I want my players to use those skills to the to the best of their ability. And again, golf to me, especially golf swing, I spent so much time chasing swing fields and stuff between tournaments. And to me, golf swing, golf, especially during competition, is balance, balance, balance, balance. Can we keep it as locked in as we can for as long as we can? Because if if my players, I was telling you guys off air, it's been really windy here in Oklahoma this spring. And I've gotten players that in January, we had a really, really pretty winter here. Sometimes it snows and it didn't this winter. And so we had a lot of kids playing a lot of golf from December and January, but February to now has been really windy. And I had players in February come in and they were hitting three or four down on a seven-iron. And the last time I saw them, they were 10 down. Why? Because they play in a bunch of wind, and so that you know, and it kind of works the same way with height. Are they hitting it too low, too high, or we kind of balance in the middle? You'll hear me do a lot of Goldilocks principles with my teaching, too hot, too cold, just right. And that's it's to keep us as balanced as we can, to keep us as close to our baseline as possible. And I would say too, when we're working the golf ball, there's two styles. On the golf course, if we have to curve it around the tree, you aim wherever you want to. Aim right, hook it, pull hook it, aim left to push faded. I don't care. When we're doing this on a range to balance out our golf swing, we want the setup to be the same way every time. Can we set up and move up, move our path inside out four or five degrees and hit a push or a push draw? Can we set up the same setup and move our path three or four or five left? Can we go to zero so that our brain knows where the middle ground is? I I I I've I can't tell you how important it is. And I just wish I would have coached this with my players at a you know much earlier and not waited this long to do it.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

And when you say like save your set of being like the same as you're doing these different shots, what like to me, are you saying don't like for me, if I want to play like a big hook, I would drop the the right foot back and obviously make sure that I feel like I can come in on that path. Same as if I'm trying to play a fade, I'll push that right foot. So it's basically encouraging me to come in. Are you saying keep the feet like neutral or and try and practice that?

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Sorry, it just so no, you're fine. I'm saying if you're in a tournament, Chris, your way of doing it is just fine. Do whatever you from a performance standpoint, set up like uh and and I think this is another cool conversation is like talking about openers and closers, what closes the face, what makes it, what makes the ball go more left for right handers handers and what opens it. So for you, if you if you've got to hook one around a tree, if you pull that right foot back, move the ball around in your stance, and you do those things to make it hook, I got no problem with it. Okay. But that's a pr that's on the performance side. On the on the balance side, the mechanical side, the golf swing side, no, on the range, I want you setting up to it neutral. And this is to make sure if if I you know jokingly put a gun to your head and say, I need you to hook this golf ball and you can't do it from a neutral setup on the range, well, then your stock shot's gonna be gonna be a little bit more on the fade side. And I think like some of my sayings too that I would say, like, I want, you know, I I I've I've said this before too, talking about lag and like and like holding the angle and stuff, like I want my players, my players have to earn the right to be able to throw it. They've got to earn the right to be able to release it. So I need them to show me that they can hit, they can hit a ball with too much shaft lane and too much, too much shaft angle. Same thing with fades. Obviously, 90, whatever, 90% of the high handicaps hit hit big fades and slices. So I want they've got to earn the right to fade it. So if if listeners at home can't, you know, you guys can't, you've never been able to hit a draw, you gotta learn how to hit some hooks just to and without changing your setup too much, just to figure out how to do it. If anything, it's a fun exercise. Like it's not gonna blow your golf swing up, but show, figure out what what are some of the pieces you've got to do to add some draw, add some push, push, draw, add some hook to the system to help balance that that fade out. And then if you choose to hit a fade, I want it to be your choice, not because that's the only shot you can hit. Oh yeah, I'm a I'm a really good, I'm a natural fader. Like the golf's not a natural sport. There's nothing natural about this silly game. The only reason you're a natural fader is because you can't draw it and that's the only shot you have, right? And so that just I I I love the idea of can we set up to it neutral? Can we hit it low, high, mid? Can we hit a can we hit a draw, a straight, and a fade? And if we can do that, now you can pick what you want to hit. But if you can't hit one of them, I I I say work on it. Add some to it to kind of find that middle ground to where we get you kind of neutral or neutral-ish for a while longer and then try to keep you there.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Yeah. And I'd actually never heard that. I I think you know, the nine box drill or whatever that the people describe, what you just described, they're trying to hit all those different shapes and different heights. I think anytime I've ever tried to do that, I think I probably did what Chris is talking about, where it's like, okay, here's my draw, right? I'm gonna like push like my right foot back and like feel like I'm swinging from the inside. Whereas I I think I'm really interested to try what you're talking about. And the whole purpose of this, Chase, is to try and find your kind of balanced stock shot. Stock swing. It's to try and keep that in balance. It's not so that you can be out in the course going, look at me, and all these funky shots that I can play. It's trying to balance everything, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah, the nine windows is great if you are Tiger Woods and Scheffler. Scheffler does a great job. Scheffler works the golf ball a lot in play with irons. And he even tries, and Scott is Scott Fawcett has talked about this. He tries to work it at times with driver, and Scott doesn't like that concept. And he makes it makes it known. And Scott's a friend and and I I respect the heck out of him. But um, but yeah, I would say for you guys and and and for five, ten handicappers, it is not to try to, yeah, to try to be too cute on the golf course. It is to, if we're hitting weak cuts with irons, it's to add more draw and more hook to the system to help square up the face. It's literally about how do we organize the face in the path. And I don't, I don't mind if my players can only really hit fades, but the problem with it is it becomes a slice, it's gonna become a slice at some point. It's never gonna stay. All this would work just fine if we could just lock our swing into right there. If if 10 was a hook and one was a slice and we wanted to be at a five all the time, that would be fine. Hit it dead straight. Let's zero out everything and hit it perfect. But contact's gonna move both vertically and horizontally, and your motion is going to move. And so then my question is how do we balance it out? And so either we try to balance out with swing feels and thoughts, which to me, you've got to have a really good instructor and a good set of eyes, and you've got to be very um non-emotional to do it that way because it becomes really tricky. Oh, this feel worked six months ago, so I'm gonna try it again and then we chase it for however long. Or we just keep asking the questions. How is my setup? How is my top of backswing? Pretty good. Everything looks the same. Oh, first move down, I'm coming out and over it. So my fade's getting fadier and the face is getting open. Okay, so I need to add, I'm gonna go neutral setup to down the range, and I'm gonna hit, I'm gonna try to hit push draws till my hands bleed. And I'm gonna try to get the path more inside out while I while I'm aware of contact, and I'm gonna be very, very gracious and give myself some grace and not not over-assess every shot. And I'm gonna try to get, and I'm gonna video some, but I'm gonna try to get to where the path moves back to the inside sum so I can at least spell draw again without needing the D and the R and the A and then not knowing where the W is. And so I just think I think the balancing act of of this is so much safer than oh, I I I went down a this route with my golf swing, or I went down this route with my my elbows, or I changed my grip, or I chased this feel, or I did all this. It just becomes it's just messy. It's just much messier.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Yeah, yeah. And I have a a question for you with um, because this is something I struggle with, is my pre-shot routine. Do you think I should focus so much on a pre-shot routine and try and get it to be consistent? And do you think that'll help it translate when I'm under pressure?

SPEAKER_01 46:53

So the my goal for my players with a pre-shot routine, and this is again, all my mental stuff comes from from Dr. Raymond Pryor. His stuff is his stuff is brilliant. And I, you know, I've taken what I've learned through the years before him and and and kind of meshed it with his stuff. But what I would say about a pre-shot routine is the goal is to get the mind ready to hit the shot. I don't, I don't, I'm not a time, it's not a time thing for me. Like obviously, once we step over it, I don't want my players taking forever, but I'm not gonna say you got to take the fit. If the if if all we're worried about is trying to get the pre-shot routine to be the same amount of time, then it becomes a distraction. Then it becomes a distraction. So I would first say your goal with the pre-sharp routine is get your mind in the right spot to hit the golf shot. What are we trying to do? I'm trying to hit it here. Okay. I I do like pre-sharp routines to mimic, I like, I like Tiger's exaggerations. We're trying to hit a cut, so he's gonna make these big exaggerated over-the-top moves, or we're trying to hit a draw, big exaggerated underneath moves. And then it's what are we trying to do? I'm trying to hit a 182-yard seven iron that starts at the left edge of the tree and draws back to 15 feet right of the hole. I want it to be crystal clear and as precise as possible. And I would say, you know, because you talked about you're really close to a scratch, scratch golfer, but you haven't you haven't been able to get over the hump. The quickest way for you to get over the hump is to not worry about what hump you're on or where you're at. The quickest way to get over the hump is to literally spend every ounce, every, every ounce of focus you have on on each shot and winning each shot and adding up each shot and not allowing your brain to go into what's next and all the past and all the future and all the stuff that that doc probably talked to you about. But going back to your original question, it's can we get our mind in the right mindset to hit the shot we're trying to hit? And I'm not I'm not gonna distract myself with, oh, I took an extra second or I backed off or I did this. No, it's I'm gonna do everything I can to get ready to hit the shot. And most of the time, the the time once we get over it, it needs to be a little quicker than too long. If we're over it too long, it just gives our brain too many chances to to come up with more distractions.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

Got you. Just on the that regarding just focusing on one shot at a time, obviously that's become like a bit of a cliche, but it's so much truth to that. What is it that you say, Chase? You often say on your podcast with Dr. Raymond that you like your players. What is it? You see, I want them to be on time, on task, on what what is it that you say?

SPEAKER_01 49:11

There's like three things. Yeah, so my three are always on time, I call it a precise game plan. Raymond says on time and on target. Um, I've always just said I want my players to be on time, which is no future, no past. That's my favorite saying in in with my players is you have no future, you have no past. The past's not gonna dictate, the past's not gonna dictate the future just because it happened on the last hole means nothing. Um time, uh precise game plan is just it's not to make a par, it's not to hit the fairway, it's not to hit the green. It is to have a very precise target that we're trying to trying to aim at and and and shoot at. And most good players understand that, but it gets trickier with you guys' guys' area in our area where it gets windy. The gusts and stuff can make it really, really difficult at times. Augusta, they talk about it all the time, like they weren't clear and clear and committed to what they were trying to do. And then the third one's acceptance. Can we bring freedom to it? Are we are we bringing freedom to it or are we protecting against an outcome that we don't want to have happen? Obviously, Doc talks about it all the time, and and and that's what's just opened my eyes and my helped my coaching and helped my own game and helped my players on just understanding the difference between a free golf swing and not. And then I'm really big on self-assessment or assessment after the shot. If we hit one bad, you know, I like to say, like, how many, uh were we distracted? Was there we I joke I always have a bottle of water with me. I'm like, how much poison? How much poison do you want to drink? This is 100%, this bottle of water is 100% of water. If I put an ounce of poison in it, would you drink it? And all the kids are like, no, I would never drink it. It's like, okay. So then when you tell me you were 80% locked in mentally, that's 20% poison that was distracting you. Would you want to drink that water? Oh no, yeah, because that would send you to the hospital. That would be really bad. And so I'm always going back to after shots. We hit a bad shot. Were we on time? Was our game plan crystal clear? Were we crystal clear in what we're trying to do and were we completely free and accepting of all outcomes? And if we weren't, then we have to blame the middle game first. We have to blame our brain first. We have to blame one of those three, and we have to close the door on it before we can move on to the next one. And the big one I've been telling my players lately is you're you're not allowed two in a row. You're not allowed two in a row. You have to recognize the first one because I'm so tired of my players saying, yeah, I bogeied seven holes in a row because I missed a three-footer on the first hole and it and it made me mad and I couldn't get over it. I'm like, guys, at what point do you recognize that like if you want to shoot the lowest score you can, you're gonna have to play your best on every shot? And so that's that's the kind of the big, the big mental things that I, you know, and again, I keep it on the surface level because Doc's a genius and gets way deeper than I can get. But like I've had a lot of success with my students just recognizing, hey, I was not where I needed to be. Hey, what happened on 15? Well, I made a bad golf swing. I hit driver in the woods. Let's talk about that. You missed a four-footer for birdie on the hole before. You're going into a par five that's downwind. The player before you hit it in the right woods, and then you stepped up and your routine looked off and you overswung and hit it left. And that was just a bad golf swing. Yeah, you know, you're right. I was actually kind of mad and I saw him hit it right, and my last second I said, don't hit it right. It's like, hmm, interesting, you know? And like that's the stuff that like I just didn't coach three years ago. I just didn't. I was just like telling my all my players they got to believe in them themselves and be comfortable and all this stuff that's just so wrong. Like, we want our players to be resilient and to be able to face adversity and to be able to swing freely, whether they're leading the golf tournament or playing their worst golf ever. Can we still finish the job? And that's that's that's the message that we're preaching to our kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

And I do love that about your podcast with Dr. Raymond Pryor. It's almost like you, you're as a top instructor yourself, but you're sitting there almost with a pen and paper listening to all of this stuff. And then it's clear that you definitely want to pass all of that on to your students. I said this, I think I maybe said this on our last podcast, Chris, or one before is we need to have a bell that rings every time someone says acceptance because it's just the running theme that we're hearing throughout our kind of podcast journey that we've been on. That was part one with Chase Cooper, and there's a lot in there that honestly could completely change how you look at your golf game. But in part two, we're gonna take it a step further. Chase actually analyzes my swing and Chris's swing. What we're doing, where we're going wrong, and what we need to change if we're gonna have any chance of hitting our targets this season. So we will see you next time on how low can you go.

SPEAKER_03 53:50

How low can you go?