How Low Can You Go? Golf Podcast
How Low Can You Go? — the golf podcast born in Scotland that tracks two golf buddies chasing low handicaps within just 6 months. Chris, a single-figure golfer on a mission to reach scratch, teams up with Dave, a mid-handicapper who would dearly love to break into single figures. In this debut season Chris and Dave dive into their golf history, what’s motivating them to get better, and get locked-in to their (ambitious) 2025 targets. Why do people work so hard at this great game but never get any better? Chris and Dave are on a mission to solve this problem and turn their golf dreams into reality. Expect laughs, lessons, pleasure and pain on the roller coaster ride that is amateur golf. How Low Can You Go? Come join us and find out.
How Low Can You Go? Golf Podcast
Jon Sherman: Why Golf Feels Harder Than It Should | Expectations, Pressure & Better Scores
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“Most golfers don’t actually understand what good golf looks like for their skill level.”
Today we’re joined by Jon Sherman — author of The Four Foundations of Golf, founder of Practical Golf, and co-host of The Sweet Spot Podcast.
This is one of the most honest conversations we’ve had yet about the mental side of golf.
⛳ IN THIS EPISODE
- Why golfers put so much pressure on themselves
- Fear of choking and protecting good rounds
- Why expectations destroy enjoyment
- What “good golf” actually looks like
- Why elite golf is mostly avoiding disasters
- Why mid-handicap golfers might be the most tortured golfers on earth
Jon also explains why most golfers fundamentally misunderstand scoring, consistency and improvement — and how changing your expectations can completely transform both your golf and your enjoyment of the game.
🎯 IF YOU’VE EVER...
- Cared too much about your score
- Let one bad hole ruin your round
- Panicked trying to break 80, 90 or 100
- Wondered why golf feels mentally exhausting...
…this episode is for you.
🎙️ Part 2 coming next week.
⛳ FOLLOW JON SHERMAN
📘 Practical Golf
https://practical-golf.com/
📚 The Four Foundations of Golf
https://practical-golf.com/book/
📺 YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@jonshermangolf
📸 Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/practical.golf
🎧 The Sweet Spot Podcast
https://sweetspotgolfpodcast.com/
🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW
How Low Can You Go explores how amateur golfers can improve their game, lower their scores, and actually understand what moves the needle — without wasting time on the wrong things.
🎧 Listen now and start turning bad rounds into better golf.
📸 Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/howlowcanyougopodcast/
📺 YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@HowLowCanYouGoPodcast
💌 Contact
howlowcanyougopodcast@gmail.com
🏨 Big shout out to The Leddie on Scotland’s Golf Coast.
If you’re enjoying the podcast, leaving a quick review really helps us grow — and helps more golfers shoot lower scores. ⛳
I reminded myself, like, this is what you prepared for. This, this is what you came for to experience this moment. I would tell people, like, yeah, you're gonna have to blow it. You're gonna have to choke. You're gonna have to have opportunities to do it and have it not work out. I would say that like elite golf, it's a series of boring, non-disastrous outcomes. So, like when you start to understand what good golf looks like for your skill level, like you have a very clear understanding of like what good shots, normal shots, and even bad shots look like, that has a trickle-down effect to you know, your mental state, your decision making, like how satisfied you are after the round, how much fun you're having. I often call the mid-single-digit golfer the most tortured because they're kind of stuck between two worlds. They can shoot in the 70s or close to par time, which is you know the mountaintop for a lot of people. And then they could, you know, if things really go wrong, they could be in the triple digits.
SPEAKER_05Welcome back to How Low Can You Go, the golf improvement podcast, born in Scotland, the home of golf. Today's guest is someone whose work has really shaped the way Chris and I think. John Sherman is the author of the four foundations of golf, founder of Practical Golf, and co-host of the Sweet Spot Podcast alongside Adam Young, who of course was a guest on our show earlier this year. And honestly, if you ever had it when you realize you might be about to shoot a career round, or if you've convinced yourself that you should be playing better than you are, or if you walked off golf course feeling far more frustrated, then perhaps you should. Then keep listening, because what John Sherman does brilliantly is strip away a lot of the fantasy golfers create in their own heads, and replaces it with a calmer, more practical, and ultimately more effective way to protect it. This conversation goes deep into pressure, expectation management, why mid-single-digit golfers might actually be the most tortured golfers on earth, and what a good golf really looks like. And trust me, it's actually probably not what you think. This is John Sherman. This is How Low Can You Go. Welcome back to How Low Can You Go, the golf improvement podcast, born in Scotland. Chris and I started this about eight months ago because we want to get better at golf, isn't that right, Chris?
SPEAKER_01That is right, Dave. We're trying to get to Alves Mountain Top.
SPEAKER_05We are indeed, we are indeed. So, what better way to try and reach our golfing goals, our golfing targets, than to speak to some of the best thinkers, the best coaches, the best people in the golf improvement space. And so today we are absolutely delighted to be welcoming John Sherman to the show. John, welcome to How Low Can You Go? How are you?
SPEAKER_02Hey guys, thanks for having me. Uh I think we were chatting before we hit the record button about how much I love Scotland and Scottish golf. So excited to be on a Scottish golf podcast.
SPEAKER_05Yes, well, we are excited to have you on. Um you're based over in well, just outside New York. You're you're based in Long Island, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yep. I am on Long Island, as the locals say. If you're watching this on video, there's my pen is pointing to a a painting someone made. It says golf in Long Island, and it's actually wrong. The locals would only say golf on Long Island. I think that's the sign I don't know if you're familiar with, you know, you know, Jerry Seinfeld, the comedian, but he he has kind of uh a joke about that where he says, you know, Long Island, because he's a Long Islander. He's saying, We're we live on Long Island. We don't live in it, we live on it. That that's a distinction we make. Okay. I don't know why, but it's just that's the way we say it. So yeah, I live on Long Island, about an hour east of New York City. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_05And you started uh practical golf. I think you you're kind of I guess your USP, your whole thing is that uh you offer kind of practical coaching advice from a player's perspective, because you're a good player yourself, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think the whole reason I started, you know, it first started as a website, a blog, writing articles on how to get better at golf. And my my idea was, well, well, the swing has been covered for forever and still is to some extent. And and, you know, I've been playing for so long and I just, you know, made a lot of mistakes, corrected them, and and paid attention to other players that I was learning from. And I was like, you know, a lot of these nuances and small little tidbits of the game that better players pick up on over the years, you know, take a lot of time and effort and failure and heartache. And I was like, well, if I could distill these playing lesson skills, you know, whether it was strategic advice, mental advice, and then what became expectation management advice, I felt that hopefully I could help people get to one of where they want to go faster and really wouldn't have the same experience I did for two decades. So yeah, everything I've always written about, talked about, um, has always been about what I would call playing skills and golf IQ and trying to teach all the lessons that you can only learn by being on the course enough and adjusting and learning. Um, and it's things that seem obvious in retrospect, but they're not at times. Uh so I try and convey that information from a player's perspective and not a swing coach. That that's my distinction.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, absolutely. And um fast forward a few years, then you started The Sweet Spot, the podcast with Adam Young. We had Adam Young on relatively recently. Uh that went down really, really well. Uh, I think, yeah, this is actually quite a surreal moment. It was a surreal moment for me speaking to Adam Young as well, because I think I'm I possibly have listened to The Sweet Spot more than anyone.
SPEAKER_02Uh you those people like on the Spotify rewind where they say the top half percent of your listeners have listened like this many hours. I'm like, who could possibly listen to us talk about golf that much? Maybe they left it on while they were sleeping or something. Yeah, Dave as well. I appreciate that. I always tell people if you want to get if you want to get to sleep easily, just put on the podcast or my audio book and you'll be there in no time.
SPEAKER_05No, um, guilty as charged. I'm gonna say, correct me if I'm wrong, John, but I think this week's pod started around 2020. Is that right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we we started, you know, in COVID times, you know, it was something Adam and I, you know, we'd been friends for a while, kind of remotely. Um we both obviously had similar philosophies on golf improvement. And you know, we had talked about like, oh, we should join forces, and I was like, well, we should do a podcast. And you know, at that moment where I was like, you know, we just decided, you know, now now's the time to do it. Um, and we did, and I'm I'm happy we did. It's been it's been an incredible, you know, community that we have of people who who listen. I've met a lot of them, I've played golf with a lot of them, and um, yeah, it's been great for both of us. So we appreciate you you obviously listening all these years.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I I would, as I said, I would describe myself as an early adopter. Thank you for that. I think in around you know, 2020 COVID when golf courses reopened, yeah, like a lot of people, that was when I really committed to write, okay, I'm gonna really try and play golf really regularly and try and get better at golf because I I guess my quick backstory, John, is I was probably the worst golfer you're ever going to see. Um, and then I think Chris, I'm now a reasonable, I'm an okay golfer, I'm a mid-handicapper.
SPEAKER_01I'm not ashamed to be on the course. Yeah, I'm not ashamed to be on the course with him. He's uh he's a he's a good time he knows his way around now.
SPEAKER_05I look a bit, I think it's all a learning curve, but yeah, I uh really want to get to single figures, and that's part of what drove Chris and I to starting this podcast. Um like Chris, you go ahead, you can talk a bit about what you're aiming for as well. Because I think I think you can learn a lot from this guy, John Sherman, because I think he he he's been able to get to that that kind of level that you want to get to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I've I've played golf since I was six. Um so I've played for a long time, played a little bit of my varsity year at high school, and then it went completely wrong. I was down at about one handicap playing really good golf in Oklahoma, and uh it was very windy, and I just couldn't couldn't like basically play the golf that I wanted to, so stopped for like six years, and then it was around about COVID time as well. It was like when everything was open back up and you could get on the golf course, my love for it came back. But so I'd say like I got my handicap and every year it's been going down, but then for the last like two or three years, I'd say it's just stuck at like between one and three, and just now it's going up.
SPEAKER_02That's a very common place to be.
SPEAKER_01And it's like it's I'm playing good golf, I'm playing scratch league games and stuff like that. The one-on-ones, I enjoy that. It's not like I like shy away from the kind of fight, yeah. But I'm at this point where we've from starting this podcast, we've realized a lot of my stuff is like the mental side of it. Yeah. Like I think I've put so much pressure on myself, and I think it's been great speaking to all these like professionals like yours like yourself that know so much, but I do think that there comes a time where I'm on the golf course and it just like I'm thinking everything under the sun and not just focusing on the shot, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's um the distractions you're faced when you play are endless, and they're either self-imposed distractions, whether it's you know, your internal monologue, which is either negative, scared, whatever that is, playing partners, scoring expectations. So everything, you know, kind of the core of what I try and coach and talk about is that you know, figuring out your own system, it doesn't have to be the same for everyone. I think the the corners of it match up, but what's inside of like the jigsaw puzzle needs to be a bit different. So yeah, you have to figure out a way of what's going on in those moments where it doesn't go well. Um, obviously you probably have pretty good feedback at this point looking at those rounds, and then you're gonna figure out well, in those moments when I'm struggling with, you know, the scoring expectation coming down the stretch, like what's the thing that I can hold on to that gives me some you know relief or certainty or something. And for me, you know, I'll give you a perfect example. I was playing in my first tournament last week, and you know, there's only 16 spots for match play. I kind of know the number in my head. I birdied the 16th hole, and I'm like right there. And I have a fairly straightforward shot in the fairway to the hole. And I said to myself, you know, you've been in this moment so many times. I literally said it out loud, I'm like, this is what you came for. I reminded myself, like, this is what you prepared for. This this is what you came for to experience this moment. And I actually didn't hit the shot I wanted to. I got it on the green, it was maybe 40 feet short. I just let I made a bogey, which wasn't, you know, I missed by a stroke. So it didn't, it didn't happen that day. It's happened many days for me. But that is something I can hold on to is that, yeah, was I scared of messing up, but at the same time, I'm like, this is what I'm here for. Like, this is supposed to be fun. I'm enjoying this. Like, I like I like these moments, and that resonates with me. It didn't make it happen, but it has happened in the past. I've done it plenty of times where I've gotten through. So yeah, I think we're all like searching for like that moment or moments, and you have to have something that you know resonates with you, and it can sound different for everyone.
SPEAKER_05Just before we continue, I think this is such an important point from Joe. Because I know a lot of golfers listening will recognize this feeling. We spend all week thinking about how we would love to go out and shoot our lowest ever score. But with that, I will come pressure moments. Whether that's a chance to break 80, to win an important match, or to shoot a personal best. But then when those moments finally arrive, uh we suddenly start treating them like danger instead of opportunity. And maybe part of getting better at golf is learning to see nerves not as a warning sign but as proof that you're actually where you wanted to be. Let's get back into it.
SPEAKER_01And see, I so this is something I wanted to speak to you about because I was playing golf last Friday and I had a moment where I was playing up Montrose near uh Aberdeen and I was too under through eight holes. And because we've had such good guests on, like I was saying, I was like enjoying it. It was like I was trying to go that direction of you're you're having fun, like the sun is shining, it was a beautiful day. But then there was still that little voice in my head going, You're too under, just like don't do anything silly, right? Yeah, and then all of a sudden, um I I tried doing a little swing tweak that I've been taught from the podcast, and I hit it great in that moment. And this is where I have these thoughts where I'm like, Don't do that though. Like I'm saying, like I'm having the inner monologue going, but don't try that right now. You've been hitting a fade really nicely today. Like, don't try that.
SPEAKER_02Well Welcome to the uh welcome to the curse of the content creator. So there's a separate level of pressure when you start talking and thinking and learning and and even helping others with golf that is on top of the ordinary layer that you would have if you weren't doing all these things.
SPEAKER_01And if someone that's reached my uh the mountaintop then, if someone that basically creates content for the golf world, how did you overcome that then?
SPEAKER_02I I'm not sure I have, to be honest with you. I I've tried to be honest with this. Like it, you know, the last two or three years, I wouldn't say have been a struggle for me, but it's definitely been difficult and a kind of an exploration of, again, a lot of the things I'm trying to help other people with is that my expectations of myself or even the thoughts I'm having of what maybe what other people think of me are really manifested by, you know, my own kind of nonsense being like, you know, after, you know, my book came out and it did well. Um, I remember feeling a tremendous amount of pressure because I'm like, you know, if I saw someone in a tournament, they're like, oh, I like the book, I like this. And I'm like, I would like to tense up because I'm like, oh, now I have to live up to whatever they thought of me. And I really don't. That was kind of like something I created in my own head. Um so yeah, that that's actually been an extra, as I said, an extra layer of pressure of something to deal with. Um and again, I uh the the best that I can come up with is going back to these mantras and what I can hold myself accountable to in these in these situations and tournaments, and also not losing sight of the fact that like I'm supposed to enjoy this. Like I will hang it up in tournaments when I feel like it's becoming a chore and it's not fun for me. Um, that hasn't happened yet, but it's something I kind of check in on. So I'm I'm much better now than I was maybe a year or two ago or three. Um, but yeah, it's definitely something that has bothered me at times.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think just on that, we Chris and I started this, used the word accountable there. We we started this to sort of hold one another accountable. We were like, what better way to do that? Yeah to try and reach our targets than to start a podcast, to hang yourself out to dry in public. But as you say, and as you've said, Chris, that does create a bit of pressure. Like we we have been going a relatively short time. Um, you know, spoken to some great people, not quite at the level that you guys in the sweet spot are at in terms of how well known you are. But we are starting to notice people come like come uh like at our home course who listen to the podcast, and with that I think comes a bit of pressure around like, oh no, they're they're watching me tee off here, and they've just spoken to me about the podcast, and they're probably thinking, right, let's see how far he's come on now, yeah that he's like really committing to get better at golf, and who knows what's gonna happen next, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think whether it's you know, typical fears that golfers have of what others think of them, which is very normal at any level, or if you're you know, again, someone who let's say is a coach or has you know a public goal and then you've got that pressure on you, like it's it's mostly what you think about yourself that matters in the end. Um, and that that's hard to like kind of get through uh to get to that level. And you know, even the the the pro golfer that I work with, you know, the expectations that he puts on himself from you know people who know who he is and and and you know, family members and it's his livelihood. This is tremendous pressure. And in the end, what gets him through it is that can he feel good about the things that he set out to do and not let all those, you know, a lot of these are made-up fears and thoughts. They're not real, you know. We've kind of created them for that for ourselves, and that that's that's it's more of a deeper psychological issue to deal with. But I think golf makes that easy to to bring up. And yeah, I think when I feel good about the decisions I make and how I conducted myself and all the things that I set out to do, like even that tournament last week where I missed match play by a stroke, I was disappointed that I didn't make it, but I really felt good about how I handled myself in the round. I was, you know, I woke up fairly nervous. It was the first tournament of the year. Um, you know, my game hasn't felt as sharp maybe the last year or two. But all things considered, I was really happy with the way I handled myself, and and that allowed me to feel good about myself at the end of the round, even though the result technically wasn't what I wanted. And and that's ultimately what I think, you know, success looks like and and getting better looks like, versus yeah, if I spent the whole round like worrying about, oh, you know, someone in my group or someone watching the scoreboard who knows me and all this, like that's not how I want to play the game. Um, so I'm trying to like clearly define my objectives and what I want to hold myself accountable to and and and use that in the moments where my mind starts to kind of swirl, as you were saying earlier, Chris.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such a good point that I would expect would be so valuable for us and for our listeners. Um to use an analogy from my side, obviously, not like different end of the spectrum to you, John. You're a good player. What are you around? A plus two handicap?
SPEAKER_02Something like that. Yeah, I've been around like a plus one, plus two for about six, seven, eight years now, something like that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And so competing in a lot of top amateur events in New York State and beyond, I I I I assume. Um, for me, I and I said this on episode one, I really want to break 80. Uh, I have yet to do that. I've I've shot 80, but I and I've had had a few 82s. I had an 82 today, actually. Nice. Um so yeah, no, and uh I I I feel like things are trending in the right direction sometimes. They feel like that. But to your point, the time when I shot 80, I was with Chris, and Chris, you were keeping an eye on my score. Yeah, I personally don't keep a really close eye on my score, but you know, John, like you kind of know, don't you?
SPEAKER_02You kind of have a good feeling. Yeah, I think people are different on like how much they want to think or not think about their score, but for the most part, if you do care about your game, like yeah, you have an idea in your head of where you are. It's just a matter of is it going to dictate, you know, is that obsession with the score or worry about it going to start dictating how you behave and the decisions you're going to make? And that's when it kind of crosses the line where it's like, well, now I'm just playing for the score and I'm not playing for the other stuff. And and with that kind of conundrum, it makes it harder to shoot that score.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, definitely. And I think Chris, you said to me, you were going, look, I think you might be close to breaking 80 here if are you feeling.
SPEAKER_01And I think this is before we've talked to folk, like people that said, like, like Johnny, the PJ Pro at our golf course, he we play a lot with him down at Gull in one. And he goes, I actually don't really know what my score is. He's like, I'm a couple under, but I don't actually know because I'm just here to enjoy the game.
SPEAKER_02I think if you I think you know that's kind of where I want to be, is like I have an idea of where I am, but I'd actually have to stop and think about it, be like, where, you know, that if if you said like, is is your mind in the right place, that that's what it would be rather than be like, oh yeah, I'm three over. Like that would be my like my first you know instinct because then now I know I'm kind of obsessed on the score too much. And that is, you know, for someone like myself, that the reason why I was drawn to golf in the first place is because I love numbers and measuring myself by numbers, just money, you know, scores and grades in school, like You know, that that's how I was like, oh great. I have this thing where I get a number at the end of every day. This is amazing. And it ended up being a curse for a while. And yeah, that that's like the question is like, how do you, you know, when you're in those moments and you you have these scoring thresholds that you're trying to break through, yes, they are physical. So I'd say the first step is that you have to get your physical skills in a place where you actually even have the opportunity to do it. And the worst thing that golfers can do is saying, like, well, I want to break 80, but you know, let's just say like their T game and approach game just isn't there. And then they've created this, you know, goal for themselves that they physically can't perform. So the first step is, you know, golf is mostly a physical skill game. I'd never want to say otherwise. Like, you want to make sure that your skills are good enough where you can start knocking on the door. And then the next step is like the mental breakthrough, which is I would tell people like, yeah, you're gonna have to blow it. You're gonna have to choke. You're gonna have to have opportunities to do it and have it not work out. And on some level, it's disappointing, but you know, our perspective and the feedback we collect in those moments is more important, saying, Well, great, now I'm getting closer. I had the opportunity to do it. Let's rather than just say, like, oh, I sucked and I choked, like, let's kind of pull back the layers a bit and deconstruct what happened and learn from it, whether that is the physical stuff or the kind of intangible, controllable stuff, which would be, you know, strategic decisions, mental state, that type of stuff. And that's ultimately how you get through these these levels is the combination of your physical skill and then the kind of playing skills. And they work together.
SPEAKER_01On the on the final hole, was it a par or was it a bowie that you needed? I can't remember.
SPEAKER_05I so as it turned out, I needed a par. And I think this actually ties in nicely with what you've just said, John, and is about that moment where you know, Chris was going, Oh, I think this could be a moment where you might break the AD. Yeah. I had an inkling that it was there. And so, Chris, you were sort of saying, Well, how are you feeling? And I think as we m touched on earlier, you know, a lot of people sort of feel like, oh, well, I'm terrified. Oh, I'm I I'm worried I'm gonna blow it. Yeah. And I said to Chris, look, this is kind of what we've built up for. Like this is these are the moments that we've been chasing the entire time, right? And so I I just said, I just want to try and embrace this moment and enjoy this moment, which I did. Now, uh the sad end of the story is I didn't break 80 because I three-potted on on a hole that I normally like a hole that I power regularly, but I three-potted on the on the 18th, um, thinking that even then I thought I might still have broken 80. But I I guess to your point, John, uh I know I didn't do it on that occasion, but I I still actually really enjoyed the moment. Yeah, and that that's that's wonderful. And I think going into it like that is is what we want. And that's what we pay the admission for to get into these moments.
SPEAKER_02I mean anyone who's you know a fan of the professional game would understand that there is a you know a massive history book of blunders at at the highest level where someone had a you know a really horrible moment in front of a lot of people. I mean, uh you go back open championships, all major it's it's you know, this game has a very cruel way of not giving you what you want, and and especially when you want it too badly. And, you know, I I still experience those moments at times and it's it's unpleasant. But, you know, to your point, if you can have the ability to change that perspective in the moment, well, I think the fact that you don't have a negative association with that day will give you a better opportunity of breaking through the next time. Versus if you told me, like, oh, you know, 80 was all I thought about, I was so angry with myself. I drove home, you know, for hours or days. I couldn't get over it. And yeah, that that's gonna make it harder to get through it the next time if you've kind of created this emotional scar that's just gonna get poked at every time you get close. Versus if you have the presence of mind of being like, great, I've been putting work in on my game, I'm getting more experience. Like, this is another opportunity, this is fun. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't, but this is part of my journey and what I've set myself up for. This is what I signed up for. Great. Yes.
SPEAKER_01I'd sometimes think as well, like we spoke about this before. It's um it's the expectation of when you're watching, like, say, for example, like Rory, like a chipping masterclass at the Masters, even though he's putting himself out of position. And then you're like, yeah, yeah, you get so tied in to be like, why am I not like why can I not sometimes play these shots? But then at the same time, like you were saying, you see all these like videos on Instagram and socials of Scotty Scheffler, best golfer in the world, like absolutely hitting a hustle rocket, but they don't ever really show that on the way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're you're being shown, you know, one of the points I've always made over the years is that as a pro golf fan, if you are one, like you do have to understand that you're being shown a highly edited. Now, I will say on your side of the pond, they do a much better job of showing you the golf unedited. Sky Sports, you know, from the coverage I've seen is different than what we would have in America. But I can tell you from an American perspective, like we are being shown a like somewhat edited version of what's going on versus, you know, great thing you could do now is like if you had like a subscription to like ESPN golf, like you could watch a featured group play every shot now. And if you watch someone on a Thursday morning when there's no crowd around shoot a 76 and you see every shot, because there's plenty of guys on the leaderboard doing that, you you start to realize like, yeah, they're great, but also at the same time, like like Scotty yesterday hit this shot at Durral um at the Cadillac Championship on the 18th hole. I don't even know how he got it through the trees. It was it was unbelievable. And you know, that's what we saw. Like, but he hit it in the trees, put someone else in that situation. Yeah, it most of the time they're making bogey for that situation, just made like an unbelievable escape. So, yeah, when you watch pro golf, like you're seeing a version of golf that isn't even true for them at times, and that kind of like subtly warps your expectations of what good golf looks like.
SPEAKER_01And like my question to you, obviously, like say me being like a 2.8 handicap or you being a plus two, and then Scotty obviously being the a plus 50. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Where like what's the where would you say what separates us, like say from you to me to you to so when I look at like what is the difference between you know a solid scratch player versus someone who's in that one to three zone? Um one of the concepts that's always jumped out to me is like two bad shots in a row. So if you like I because of the amount of tournament golf I've played the last decade, I I was not exposed to like scratcher plus handicaps for a very long time. I just never got to see them play. I wasn't good enough to like be around them. And now that I've seen it in my own game and other people's games versus like a level just above it, you know, a lot of it, yes, absolutely scratch golfers hit great shots. They drive it straight at times, hit it close to the pin, but it's more about, you know, if you tell me what's the difference between a three and scratch, like that three is likely going to like chunk an iron or a wedge or like just hit one or two shots around where it's just like it really puts it, it it it's either two bad shots in a row or more of those like very loose shots. Whereas the scratch player typically it's just a little more boring and steady. It's not so much that they hit more spectacular shots, it's just like they hit one less T shot, not off the planet, or one less iron shot that they didn't chunk 30 yards short of the green. Um now that can differ from player to player. Obviously, like some players struggle more with speed control in the greens, and maybe they're three-putting more. So you have to do some more detective work on your own game. But from a broad level, like that's what I see. It's not necessarily like, oh my God, he's like he's hitting shots that I've never seen before. It's more like it just didn't screw up as much. And that's that's like to do that is is difficult. That's a combination of like physical skill, you know, the intangibles. That's why the difference between like a 2.8 and a and a zero sounds like a little bit, but it's a lot at times.
SPEAKER_05Boring golf, avoiding disasters. I know that does not sound that exciting, but like, come on, that could change the way we all look at the game. Because most of us uh probably have been led to believe that good golf looks spectacular and it's fire on it flags and hero shots and miracle recoveries. But what John's describing here is almost the opposite. Good golf is mostly avoiding disasters. And weirdly, uh I actually find that encouraging because it means improvement isn't about becoming some superhuman magician on the golf course. It's about becoming slightly less chaotic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I I think as well. See, when I was playing on that Friday, I was playing with a guy that was I think he was like a 22 handicapper, and uh like I was from all the stuff that we'd learned, he was like 150 yards out, like on this embankment, hit an amazing shot onto the green, and he comes down and he was like very score, oh I'm like that. Yeah, and I had to like I was like tour level. I literally looked at him, I was like, but you're on the green, and then I and then I've kind of felt myself like, oh, am I now trying to like be the teacher? And I was just like, I need to.
SPEAKER_02To answer your other question, like, what's the difference between like all right, the scratch player and like the PGA tour pro maybe Scotty's we'll we'll set him aside, for example. But let's say so. I've been fortunate to have an inside look. You know, I've been working with Mackenzie Hughes the last three years, who's yeah, he's been a somewhere between 40th in the world to top 100. Like, you know, he is a very solid veteran PGA tour player. He's won multiple times, millions and millions of dollars. Like he is incredible. But even as good as he is, you know, it's funny. We'll talk about there are times where he's played like at his club with, you know, normal golfers, and he feels tremendous pressure to live up to what they think a PGA tour player is gonna be like. He's like, Yeah, I'm probably gonna shoot like one or two or three under, something like that, but I'm not gonna shoot like six, seven, eight under because the pressure's off all the time. So that, you know, he feels that and he knows like people are like looking to him to do something incredible when he plays. And like, yeah, there are days where he could mess around and shoot like eight or nine under. Like he's that good. Like he'll just make every putt. But a lot of times, if you played with him, you'd be like, okay, yeah, he hits it really far, great shots, but like, all right, he shot like three under, it just was kind of boring. It didn't, it was just steady. Like, that's what a lot of his rounds would look like if you played with him.
SPEAKER_01And I think like you see all this stuff on like because you're getting that access to say Bryce Duchamp on YouTube now, you're actually like you actually get to see like his whole round shot by shot. And the good thing is as well, he's actually playing these public courses where he's like, look at that lie. And that is the lies that we all get. Whereas on the tier, they're not gonna get someone looking for their ball.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah, I would say that like elite golf, I I it's kind of a quote I've used or over and over again. It's a series of boring, non-disastrous outcomes. And that that's an important thing to understand, even if you're not an elite golfer. Because if you think like I remember when I was a junior golfer watching pro golfers and like, you know, I got into golf because of tiger, you know, I went up to the course, like, like, oh man, like I gotta hit it, you know, to five feet and spin the ball back and like all this stuff. And I just went out there with just like this totally insane expectation of what would like shooting like an 80 or 85 would look like for me. And because of that, I couldn't do it because I was just losing my mind when I was hitting like you know, shots that I was supposed to hit. And you know, that disconnect, you know, that that's the expectation management stuff really held me back for a long time. So that's why you know I'm not trying to um I don't want to demoralize people, but at the same time, like when you start to understand what good golf looks like for your skill level, like you have a very clear understanding of like what good shots, normal shots, and even bad shots look like, that has a trickle-down effect to, you know, your mental state, your decision making, like how satisfied you are after the round, how much fun you're having. And that's why I've spent so much time talking about that stuff, because if you don't get that right, then you can't really get the rest of it right.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And it's it's a grit, I guess, segue into just talking a bit about your book from well, you you've got a few books out, right? So a few years ago you wrote The Four Foundations of Golf. And uh anyone listening to our podcast is gonna think that I say this to everyone who's written a book, but I genuinely do think um, and I said this to Dr. Raymond Pryor about golf beneath the surface, but I do honestly think that your work, The Four Foundations of Golf, is something that should be on every bookshelf, every golfer's bookshelf. I do think that that could be regarded as a classic in the not too distant future. Um one of the foundations in your book Thank you, thank you for saying that. That that means a lot to me. Oh no, yeah, thank thank you. Um uh one of the foundations is expectation management.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, and that's why I put it first in the book because I I and that's you know, to this day, probably the most important section of the book from what I hear from people like that. And that's music to my ears because you know, the other stuff in the book is is important and relevant. But again, it it it it if you had to read like just one part of the book, like that will have the most impact on most people's game, would be my opinion. And why do you why do you feel that just because again, like if you can't, if you step onto the course with the wrong idea of what scoring looks like, what shots look like, um, what good decision making looks like, if you don't have a clear picture or even like a slightly fuzzy picture of what that looks like, you're making a really difficult game almost impossible because you'll never live up to, you know, humans are really good at making predictions and fantasies in their head that seem very clear. And we're often very bad at predicting it, what makes us happy and what you know success looks like. We're horrible at it. And this is where a lot of like heartache and and negative emotions come from, because we don't live up to these fantasies that we created for ourselves. And golf, I think, is you know, if I if I'm ever gonna write another book, I'd love for it to be about the overlap between golf and life. And this is the biggest one is that if if you don't have that part of it close, you will not have success in a scoring sense and and from a more of a intangible like enjoyment success. It's just not possible.
SPEAKER_05Because you by your own admission, I think when you were a younger golfer, you were very, very hot-headed. I think you said you said that before.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would lose my temper. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And would you say that this expectation management piece that that was possibly the biggest turning point in turning you from like an I you were still a you were a pretty good golfer, you were like a single-digit golfer, right?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, I was the type of golfer where, you know, if breaking 80 would be nice for me, I'd be like, oh, I shot a 77 today. That was a very good round because I wasn't really playing and practicing enough. I had the physical skill built up from junior golf. But like, yeah, at that point in my life where I wasn't playing enough or practicing enough, I'd be like, oh, I gotta break 80 because that's the only way I'm gonna have fun. And I was just, it was just a very yeah, so I I was good, but I was very I always had this nagging feeling that I hadn't reached my potential, which always bothered me because my physical skills, like my ability to hit the golf ball was fairly good, but I just couldn't put it all together, and that really frustrated me.
SPEAKER_05And did you have like a did you have like a 90 in you at that time sometimes? Did you have to Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02I would have days, I remember, you know, again, not being so sharp. I remember one specific round. I mean, that uh if anyone who's read the book knows about, you know, like the the anger flare-up I have with my dad, which kind of was a low point for me. But like, yeah, I would have rounds where like, you know, you put me on a golf course that was tight. I mean, I had no idea where the ball was going off the T. Like I would just look everywhere, I'd be like in total fear of everything. And yeah, there were absolutely rounds where I would lose three, four, five balls um, shoot in the 90s, no problem. So yeah, I was kind of and that, and and to be honest, that that's where my game was at. I just didn't want to accept it. My game was, oh, if you play well, you'll be in the mid to high 70s. And that is a bit of a tortured place to be as a golfer because if you're at that level, that means, well, you can still shoot a 96. And and being in the 70s and the 90s is it's a very hard place to be for a lot of players. I often call the mid-single-digit golfer the most tortured because they're kind of stuck between two worlds. They can shoot in the 70s or close to par time, which is you know the mountaintop for a lot of people. Yeah. And then they could, you know, if things really go wrong, they could be in the triple digits. And that that is a very large spectrum of scoring that's hard to accept versus maybe someone who is in the 90s and the hundreds. Um, because again, you're you're tasting a level that most people would love to be at, and you don't taste it very often. Yes. That that's describing where I am at the moment. Yeah, it it it it is it I can't get around that. It's just part of like the lore of golf and scoring expectations and what shooting in the 70s means. Like it's a special number, it's it's hard to do. It is. I mean, I think Ben Hogan wrote, he believes that every golfer is capable of shooting in the 70s, but like, will you do it? I, you know, that that's a matter of you know, time and effort and experience.
SPEAKER_01And I I find I find myself going between the like, okay, go out there today, have fun. And then I'm like, if you shoe a couple over, be happy with that. And then I also have the maybe shoe a couple under, be happy with that. And I'm like, wait, I'm trying to find where the perfect like when I'm before I start the round, don't put any expectation on it. But at the same time, I'm like, I'd be happy with like two over, one over.
SPEAKER_02First of all, you're never gonna figure this out, like, right? That's just not possible. So we we do our best to like, you know, deal with what we've got. It's a bit of a moving target. I mean, the best that I can come up with in my own game, and hopefully others can learn from that is that I have a broad list of things that I would like to accomplish in every round that I play. Um, whether that's the decision making, the process, like I want to be, you know, I think an important lesson that I learned over and over again playing in tournaments, being around what I would say elite golfers, and then, you know, more recreational weekend type players is that there can be a time to be serious, and then there's a time to enjoy your round and what you're doing. So when you're around the ball, that's the time when, yeah, you can be serious and kind of get in your process and take it seriously and have a focus on what's going on. But I used to think that I had to be so serious for the entire four or five or six hours that it was kind of not fun. So I think, you know, what I noticed amongst the players that I enjoy being around, especially very good ones, is that, you know, we had a match a couple weeks ago with, you know, I'd say three or four of the best, you know, amongst the best players on Long Island and we were playing a match together. And I think all of us were very good, if I could give us credit of like enjoying each other's company and having fun, you know, loose conversations in between shots, but we were also playing a match that we were very serious about because we wanted to kind of tune each other up for tournament season. And when we were around our ball, like it was all business. And we were able to transition between these two very well because all of us have experience doing that. And I think that's a broad, like, good goal to aspire towards at any level is that can you enjoy the experience and not be too serious all the time and then be able to transition to kind of like that moment around shots where you can take the 30 seconds or 45 seconds to kind of make a good decision, have your focus on what's going on, hit the shot, quickly absorb what happened, and then you move on. I don't want to oversimplify that. It's very difficult to go back and forth between these two. But that's kind of like the basic like rubric of what I'd love to hold myself accountable to every time I play.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I've seen that when I'm playing uh Scratch League, um, and I was playing Scratch League recently against uh this guy, and he had a master's hat on, and we just started talking, and the conversation was flowing, and it was a lovely day. I never played the course before, so I was asking him questions and like we're playing a 1v1, but when we got to the ball, like you said, you can concentrate. But then I always I always find as the game goes on and as it becomes down to the white, we actually don't play our better golf, like we don't play our best golf when we just stop talking to each other, and it just becomes Like too tense, like we started making silly mistakes, and I almost wanted to like look to them and be like, let's get back to like the place where we were when the goals was like good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this is where you have to. So one thing that I noticed in my tournament play over the years is that you have to kind of establish, you know, what's your baseline personality and not deviate that from too much. So some people don't like to talk as much, and some people like to talk way too much. Like I'm somewhere in between. Like I can be serious, I can be talkative, I like both. And I found early on that in some tournaments that I would get a little too chummy, I would get a little too caught up in the conversation of the group, and that distracted me from taking care of business towards the end of the round, and I wasn't, you know, locked in enough over the golf ball. Um, so I'm always paying attention to stuff like this. And and again, there's no 100% right answer for everyone because we all have you know different goals and what we want out of golf. But if it is to like shoot the lowest score possible and be a serious player, then I would pay attention to this. So yeah, I would try and figure out what your personality is and weaving it back and forth between those two scenarios of over the ball in between shots and how you're managing that. Um, and it does fluctuate from time to time because sometimes like I struggle with maybe being too negative in between shots at times, and that's something I need to think about and kind of you know adjust moving forwards, or maybe I just wasn't taking it seriously enough and I wasn't locked in enough, and I'm like, yeah, that's okay, but I'll pay attention to that. So hard to do, but something to pay attention to.
SPEAKER_05I actually think what you said there and what you've said before with regard to expectations was really important for me to hear in terms of that spectrum of scoring that you can and should expect, yeah, kind of no matter what level you're at. And it was interesting. We were at a seminar with Carl Morris, he came to Murrayfield in Edinburgh. Uh packed out. You know, I love Carl, yeah, yeah, I know we do as well, we absolutely uh do as well. And in front of a packed-out clubhouse, he got everyone to kind of write down their worst and best scores from the last season. And he's like, I'm guaranteeing that it's probably approximately 20 strokes apart, because it almost always is. And then he talked about a PGA tour event where he'd seen exactly that. He saw someone shoot 62 one day and then they went out and shot 82 the next day. In some ways, even though that demonstrates how wildly uh fluctuating the game of golf can be, it kind of almost gives me a little bit of comfort because yeah, as you said, in that mid-handicapped zone where I'm sort of around, you know, I could knock on the door of breaking 80, which I have, but I also could knock on the door of going over a hundred, which I very nearly did the other day, Golan, Chris. Yep, that we talked about on this podcast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you did that. That was uh that was one of those where we were playing, and we were playing with people that we didn't really well, Dave didn't know. And uh I'm having to go to the Gollen.
SPEAKER_02I I always stay at a hotel around there that overlooks like that little practice kids course, and you can see the hills of Golan in the back. East Lotheen, I think, is one of the most beautiful places ever. I love uh I love that area.
SPEAKER_05Is that the Bonnie Badger? Is that is it the Bonnie Badger?
SPEAKER_02They changed the name of the hotel recently. It's it's on like a quiet street on that. I think it's like a little par three course for kids. It's like on that street, just down the there's a there's actually a golf shop on the scene. Uh all the way down there. So I always try and stay there and it's just it's you know looking at the hills of Golland in the background. It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_05Nice. And there's a nice little pub there actually called the called the clubhouse that overlooks that. Yeah, that's good. Sorry, Chris.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I mean it go ahead, Chris. No, I was just I was just gonna talk about like the with Dave's round, it was one of those where like I could see the wheels were turning in his head, but it almost felt like it was too late to bring him back. But like my question with that, like obviously with like David, David mentioned that back in the day you had a lot of like say aggression after bad shots and stuff like that. Yeah. Like, not to kind of go over the skin, but when you were having those moments, like say where I felt like the wheels had kind of fallen off for Dave, in that moment, I was standing there, kind of like you don't know whether to kind of like console the man, yeah, yeah, or just leave him be.
SPEAKER_02Like, well, listen, I think you know, we're all responsible for our own game, right? So I I I like to think that, you know, in order to become a better golfer and make those worst days not as worse, you need to take like extreme ownership of what's going on. And you know, as a playing partner and a friend, yeah, it's hard to like know like, should I say something, should I not say something? Um, and maybe if you do notice that as the golfer who's the one they're you know debating whether or not to step in or not, you know, I often try and like look at myself from afar and say, like, if I seem like a per, I'm not accusing you of this babe, by the way, but if I if I seem like someone who's unapproachable, who's just like aghast of like what's happened, then I've gone too far, right? Yeah. Um in that last round I played at a tournament, I hit a shank on the fourth hole. I hit a cold shank. And it rattled through me like a cold sweat for a moment. But, you know, fortunately, I have some experience in these moments where things seem like, oh God, like, you know, I could quickly go down door number one, which is like panic and being like, oh god, I can't do this. Um, but I kind of just had the wherewithal to be like, all right, that happened. Not the end of the world. Almost made par still, made a good movie. And I'm just like, you know, again, that years of experience doesn't mean I wasn't, you know, kind of terrified of it. It's still lingering them out in my head a bit. But I'm better skilled in managing that, not letting it like cascade into a full-blown disaster. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, you know, when you think about your scoring spectrum from best to worst, it's really like that bottom half or third that you really want to focus on and hang your hat on and say, like, what can I do in those days? It's part of like my two-thirds rule from the book. On the days where you're struggling and you don't seem to have your swing, and maybe you're getting some bad bounces and you know, whatever else is happening that's kind of pissing you off. If you're able to manage those days and not and make them not as worse and turn that like 96 into a 91 or that 88 into an 83, like that, a lot of players don't want to think about that. I always say it's like this is when you have to get your hands dirty. Those are the days that I think really define your game. And you know, another I'll give a shout out to my friend Jared Tendler. You should have him on. He just had a new book called Everyday Golf Psychology that came out. He refers it to it as like the A game and the C game. It's kind of a similar concept. He says that if everyone wants to make their A game better, but it's really your C game. If you make the gap between your A game and C game, you know, more narrow, then you're gonna play better on your best days because you know that your bad golf is not so bad. And if you ask me, like, what's the difference of me being like a five or six handicap and a plus now? It's like I have an ability when things seem to be going off the rails. There's a bit of a confidence and experience there where I say, like, maybe this will get out of control, but I feel pretty good in the tool set that I have to manage myself here, whether that's with physical interventions and the big three that Adam and I always talk about on the podcast, like adjusting club face control, strike location. You know, when I shanked it the other day, I'm like, all right, I'm gonna try and strike it on strike it on the toe the rest of the day. Uh, I have an intervention there, or if I'm making some dumb decisions, I'm like, well, that's an easy fix. I'll just stop being an idiot. Um, you have this toolbox that you can access, and that makes your your poor middle type rounds not as bad. Like that's when you know you're really making progress, not when you're like playing your absolute best. Because on those days it's easier.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. We we try not to use the word shank on this podcast, John. I've mind your language if you wouldn't mind either.
SPEAKER_02We could uh we could, you know, bleep that out. Um, but yeah, I've had listen, I've had some heebie jeebies over the last few years to deal with. I've I've had some demons to stare down, and and they're they're still around here and there, but like you know, you kind of have to coexist with them at times and not let them take take you over. Everyone, everyone who plays this game will go through it in one sh one form or another.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I've definitely had to get the hands dirty um with the chipping at the moment because I'm chunking everything. Um but we were like Chase has sent us some great videos, and I'm just gonna get myself to the range. Um, because that's that moment where we and I think it was when we spoke to Carl Morris, he was saying that at the end of the day you want to be a good playing partner because he said it takes so much for four people to get themselves to that golf course and everything to a line, and then all of a sudden, like say you've taken a day off work, and the guy that you're playing with is having a shocker and then he's rubbing off on you. You're like, why I should yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02So that's yeah, I think uh a phrase that I've heard recently is like being like a high agency person. So that's just like someone who's gonna like show up and be there for like you want to be a high-agency playing partner, you want to be someone who is not distracting, is someone who you know will be generally interested in you and learning about you. And you know, it sometimes I don't really post as much on Twitter anymore, but when I brought up the concept of being a good playing partner, like as an underrated skill, like people would be like, oh, well, you can't define that. And then other people are like, Yeah, I know what you're saying. Like, I think everyone on some level knows what is the short list of things that makes you a good playing partner in golf. Um, maybe we can debate on some of the lower ones, but I think the ones that are atop of the list, like we can mostly agree on if we spell them out. And I think if you accomplish those, you know, not only are you being that good playing partner, but you're also doing a service to your own game as well. Like it's a kind of a double benefit. And I I can tell you with certainty that I've been a really bad playing partner at times, and it's something that I regret. Um, and I'm sure I've distracted people and not been perfect over the last decade, but I can tell you I've been much better in that time frame than I was before it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, Dave, like, so for example, like say if you hit balls in the bushes all day and I have to go look. What kind of flame pointer is that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, you you give them three or four shots where you help them look and then and then we're done.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but I and I have been that guy, and I may I may well be that guy again, but I'm not going into the course for you at this time. But I but you know it is frustrating. I get it, like it's like I've been the one who's put balls in the bushes and everyone. Yeah, everyone has. Everyone has. But you feel you feel I do, I feel like vulnerable in those situations. I'm like, I'm really still in this runtime for these guys here, and I'm just yeah, you like you feel like the spotlight's on you, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, everyone's looking at you, and they're like you're burning a hole in the back of your neck.
SPEAKER_05Once again, I think that might be one of the most honest conversations we've had yet about what golf actually feels like when you care deeply about getting better, which is certainly quite critical that I feel. Part two is coming very soon, and we're gonna go email paper. We're gonna talk about why some of your most important golfing habits are actually built on your work today. Believe it or not, why not giving up your terrible run matters far more than most golfers we like. We also get into John's work there, and we're leaked athletes really have, but the rest of us don't have. And the simple stuff, don't believe every doctor should try everyone. Honestly, one of my favorite companies recorded. If you've enjoyed this episode, please follow the podcast for every year listed. Leave us a review, just take a few minutes to leave us a review, prep for being a good review, and then share the podcast with a golf thing friend who needs to hear that good golf is mostly just avoiding disasters, as maybe unexciting as that might sound. So thanks for listening. We will see you all again next time on How Low Can You Go.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, listen, I think, you know, we're all responsible for our own game, right?
SPEAKER_02So I I I I like to think that, you know, in order to become a better golfer and make those worst days not as worse, you need to take like extreme ownership of what's going on. And, you know, as a playing partner and a friend, yeah, it's hard to like know, like, should I say something? Should I not say something? Um, and maybe if you do notice that as the golfer who's the one they're, you know, debating whether or not to step in or not, you know, I often try and like look at myself from afar and say, like, if I seem like a per, I'm not accusing you of this, Dave, by the way, but if I if I seem like someone who's unapproachable, who's just like aghast of like what's happened, then I've gone too far, right? Um, in that last round I played a tournament, I hit a shank on the fourth hole. I hit a cold shank. And it rattled through me like a cold sweat for a moment. But, you know, fortunately, I have some experience in these moments where things seem like, oh God, like, you know, I could quickly go down door number one, which is like panic and being like, oh God, I can't do this. Um, but I kind of just had the wherewithal to be like, all right, that happened. Not the end of the world. Almost made par still, made a good bogey. And I'm just like, you know, again, that years of experience doesn't mean I wasn't, you know, kind of terrified of it. It's still lingering them out in my head a bit. But I'm better skilled in managing that, not letting it like cascade into a full-blown disaster. So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, you know, when you think about your scoring spectrum from best to worst, it's really like that bottom half or third that you really want to focus on and hang your hat on and say, like, what can I do in those days? It's part of like my two-thirds rule from the book. On the days where you're struggling and you don't seem to have your swing, and maybe you're getting some bad bounces and you know, whatever else is happening that's kind of pissing you off. If you're able to manage those days and not and make them not as worse and turn that like 96 into a 91 or that 88 into an 83, like that, a lot of players don't want to think about that. I always say it's like this is when you have to get your hands dirty. Those are the days that I think really define your game. And you know, another I'll give a shout out to my friend Jared Tendler. You should have him on. He just had a new book called Everyday Golf Psychology that came out, and he refers it to it as. Like the A game and the C game. It's kind of a similar concept. He says that everyone wants to make their A game better, but it's really your C game. If you make the gap between your A game and C game, you know, more narrow, then you're going to play better on your best days because you know that your bad golf is not so bad. And if you ask me, like, what's the difference of me being like a five or six handicap and a plus now? It's like I have an ability when things seem to be going off the rails. There's a bit of a confidence and experience there where I say, like, maybe this will get out of control, but I feel pretty good in the tool set that I have to manage myself here. Whether that's with physical interventions and the big three that Adam and I always talk about on the podcast, like adjusting club face control, strike location. You know, when I shanked it the other day, I'm like, all right, I'm gonna try and strike it on, strike it on the toe the rest of the day. I have an intervention there. Or if I'm making some dumb decisions, I'm like, well, that's an easy fix. I'll just stop being an idiot. Um you have this toolbox that you can access, and that makes your your poor middle type rounds not as bad. Like that's when you know you're really making progress, not when you're like playing your absolute best.
SPEAKER_03Because on those days it's easier.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I would, you know, we could uh we could, you know, bleep that out. Um, but yeah, I've had, listen, I've had some heebie jeebies over the last few years to deal with. I've I've had some demons to stare down, and and they're they're still around here and there, but like, you know, you kind of have to coexist with them at times and and not let them take take you over. Everyone everyone who plays this game will go through it in one sh one form or another.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yep. Yeah, you know good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think uh a phrase that I've heard recently is like being like a high agency person. So that's just like someone who's gonna like show up and be there for like you want to be a high-agency playing partner. You want to be someone who is not distracting, is someone who, you know, will be generally interested in you and learning about you. And, you know, it sometimes I don't really post as much on Twitter anymore, but when I brought up the concept of being a good playing partner, like as an underrated skill, like people will be like, oh, well, you can't define that. And then other people are like, yeah, I know what you're saying. Like, I think everyone on some level knows what is the short list of things that makes you a good playing partner in golf. Um, maybe we can debate on some of the lower ones, but I think the ones that are at top of the list, like we can mostly agree on if we spell them out. And I think if you accomplish those, you know, not only are you being that good playing partner, but you're also doing a service to your own game as well. Like it's a kind of a double benefit. And I I can tell you with certainty that I've been a really bad playing partner at times, and it's something that I regret. Um, and I'm sure I've distracted people and not been perfect over the last decade, but I can tell you I've been much better in that time frame than I was before it. Yeah, well, you you you give them three or four shots where you help them look and then and then we're done. Then you then you're on your own.
SPEAKER_03I'm not going into the gorse for you a fifth time. So, but yeah, everyone has. Everyone has.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you like you feel like the spotlight's on you, right? Yeah, everyone's looking at you and they're like you're you're burning a hole in the back of your neck.