How Low Can You Go? Golf Podcast
How Low Can You Go? — the golf podcast born in Scotland that tracks two golf buddies chasing low handicaps within just 6 months. Chris, a single-figure golfer on a mission to reach scratch, teams up with Dave, a mid-handicapper who would dearly love to break into single figures. In this debut season Chris and Dave dive into their golf history, what’s motivating them to get better, and get locked-in to their (ambitious) 2025 targets. Why do people work so hard at this great game but never get any better? Chris and Dave are on a mission to solve this problem and turn their golf dreams into reality. Expect laughs, lessons, pleasure and pain on the roller coaster ride that is amateur golf. How Low Can You Go? Come join us and find out.
How Low Can You Go? Golf Podcast
Why Your Worst Rounds Might Build Your Best Golf | Jon Sherman Part 2
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“Your future best golf is probably being built inside your worst rounds.”
In Part 2 with Jon Sherman from the 🎧 The Sweet Spot Podcast and author of The Four Foundations of Golf, we dive deep into the psychology of golf improvement.
Jon explains why golfers give up too early during rounds, how resilience is built on your worst days, and why “getting your hands dirty” might be the key to shooting lower scores.
We also discuss:
- how Jon works with PGA Tour winner Mackenzie Hughes
- handling pressure and expectations on the golf course
- why golf is “an infinite game”
- mental game mistakes amateur golfers make
- simple stat tracking that actually helps
- why chasing lower handicaps doesn’t always lead to happiness
- process vs results in golf improvement
If you’ve ever struggled mentally during a bad round, lost confidence on the course, or wondered how better players stay composed under pressure — this episode is for you.
Featuring:
Jon Sherman — author of The Four Foundations of Golf, co-host of The Sweet Spot podcast, and coach to PGA Tour players including Mackenzie Hughes.
⛳ FOLLOW JON SHERMAN
📘 Practical Golf
https://practical-golf.com/
📚 The Four Foundations of Golf
https://practical-golf.com/book/
📺 YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@jonshermangolf
📸 Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/practical.golf
🎧 The Sweet Spot Podcast
https://sweetspotgolfpodcast.com/
🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW
How Low Can You Go explores how amateur golfers can improve their game, lower their scores, and actually understand what moves the needle — without wasting time on the wrong things.
🎧 Listen now and start turning bad rounds into better golf.
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https://www.instagram.com/howlowcanyougopodcast/
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https://www.youtube.com/@HowLowCanYouGoPodcast
💌 Contact
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🏨 Big shout out to The Leddie on Scotland’s Golf Coast.
If you’re enjoying the podcast, leaving a quick review really helps us grow — and helps more golfers shoot lower scores. ⛳
In order to build the tool set that I talk about that you want to use on your best days, right, you'll have to develop them on your worst days. Really, what golf is is just like finding out different ways to distract yourself from the results. I love golf. I love shooting low numbers. I love keeping track of my handicap. But if that's all I care about, I'm going to be a miserable psychopath.
SPEAKER_00This is Hilo. Can you go? The golf improvement podcast for Instagolphin where we are trying to get better at golf. We're trying to become good golfers without completely losing our minds in the process. Today we've got part two with John Sherman from the Tweet Spot Podcast and author of the Four Foundations of Golf. I think this is such an honest conversation about the psychology of improvement. We get into how to stay mentally engaged when your game completely deserts you. Why your worst round might actually be building your future best golf. That's right. And the fascinating work that John does, the PTA tur winner and dude. There's also a lot in here about expectations, resilience, pressure, stats, but also just how to actually enjoy golf while still trying to get better. So here's part two with John Sherman. This is how low can you go? How low can you go? But on that point about being a good playing partner, um I think that day where I had that really shocking round at Gullen that we keep talking about, I actually did say to myself, I said, right, well, this is way worse than you could have possibly imagined. But the only thing you can do here is you can congratulate everyone else on their good shots and just you know keep keep doing that. And and you know, I'm not trying to virtue signal here, but I I I just did that and and I felt like, well, you know, that's the classy thing to do in this situation. And you know, I'm not saying that the two go hand in hand, but I kept doing that, and then by the end of the round, I shot like kind of I was level par for the last four holes. So I was like, well, there's something to take away from that. And and another thing that I didn't do was I even though um I was hitting it so badly, uh I didn't give up. And that's something you say a lot, John. You say yeah, you know, don't give up. And I know it's a I know it's a cliche and it sounds a bit corny. Hey everyone, don't give up, don't give up on your dream or whatever. But uh it's like uh people quit all the time in golf, people pick up their ball, people like uh don't give everything to like a pot or a chip because they've hit so many shots leading up to that point. But I think your kind of voice in my head saying, like, don't give up on the shot, that runs around my mind a lot um when I'm on the course. And even that day where I nearly broke 80, which would have been my personal best, like Chris, you might remember the start of the round, I was not playing like someone who was shooting their best round. I was scrambling for bogeys and like I holed a few like 15 footers to get a bogey. But the reason I did that was because in my mind I was thinking, right, uh don't give up. You've got a chance here, you might as well give this your best shot, and and and then that's what happened in the end.
SPEAKER_02That's the difference, and that's why I think you should consider not giving up because in order to you in order to build the tool set that I talk about that you want to use on your best days, right? You'll have to develop them on your worst days. So one of the reasons why, like, yeah, taking pride in getting your hands dirty, and like if you have a round, like let's say, for example, I'm playing in a tournament, and a lot of the tournaments I play in are like one-day qualifiers, or you know, you gotta shoot like one under, two under, something like that. And let's say you're like six over after like the front nine, and you're like, you're like, all right, this is probably not happening today. And you have two choices at that point, and and whatever version that is for you, like let's say you were 20 over par and you're not gonna break a hundred, like you have this goal that you had and now it's sailed away. And you have two options. One would be like, eh, F it, I'm done. And you just kind of like go through the motions the rest of the round, which you know, that's your prerogative. Listen, I don't want to tell people like it's golf, like it's not your job, you know, do what you want. But yeah, if you are serious about really getting better, like those are the days, like if you can hang in there and like establish like a new nine or a new mini set of goals and just say, like, I'm just gonna hang in there and and see what happens. Like, that's often what I ask of myself. Like, let me just hang in there and see what happens. And some incredible things have happened. Um, but more importantly, by building that like uh that callus and and working on that, you take that experience from the day where it didn't seem like it mattered and bring that to the day where you talked about, where like, let's say it was a rough start to the round, but there's still plenty of time left. You know, I've shot some incredible numbers after, you know, rough starts to rounds. And I only could do that because I got my hands dirty on the days where it was going against me. Like it all works together, and and a lot of players lose sight of that. And even the work I do with McKenzie, like he misses plenty of cuts. And and he even missed, he's he's had a rough season so far, and he missed a cut by one the other week. And we're and we knew, even though he missed that cut, what he did, we're like, something good's coming out of this. We know it very like we could feel it in our bones. And some of his best golf has come after maybe to the external world, it looked like, oh, this guy's playing like crap and he's struggling. But what he's doing internally in the controllables, we're like, we're building momentum here, like the scores are coming soon. That's why sometimes you hear pro golfers like Phil is a perfect example. He's like, it's close, like he's notorious for saying that. But yeah, I mean, that's one of the reasons why he won so prolifically because he was good at that. So long story short, is like you have to do this stuff on the days where you almost don't want to to get what you want on the days where things are gonna work out.
SPEAKER_03And I think we have loads of those days where uh we can use Dave where we should get dirty because we've uh had quite a few of those rounds recently.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, everyone, everyone, everyone will like every like I I can't think of a round in some of my best rounds. Like, I can't really think of many rounds where I was like, oh, that was easy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like, yeah, that was so simple. Like it most of the time you are met with some type of like frustration or disappointment early on. You're like, all right, I got a choice here. What do I do?
SPEAKER_00Okay, the hands dirty. Yeah, yeah. The storm will come at some point. Um, the other thing that I've found, even if you're having what feels like your worst possible day, is I think we touched on this a little bit, but uh the terminology I heard recently is is like your anti-cap. So not your handicap, but like your anti-cap. It's like you know, can because if you think like if your worst days get a little bit better, then hopefully that might have a knock-on effect to your best days. So sometimes if I'm like to your point, John, like after six holes, and then I've shot a really high number, and I'm thinking, well, this is going to be no chance this is going to come close to a good round of golf. But yep, now I've got a different challenge here. I'm like, okay, well, let me see if I can take a day where I've got my C game or my D game and see if I can get a lower number than the last time I was having my D game up there.
SPEAKER_02All all we're really, I mean I always find different ways to say the same thing. I mean, that's ultimately what like coaching is, but really what what golf is is just like finding out different ways to distract yourself from the results. And there are so many different ways to do it, right? Like eventually, like we're all settling on this number and what we want, right? Because that's the only thing that all of us are going to get. It's the only it's our currency, right? Yeah, that is the currency we play in, our score and our handicap. That's how we sniff each other out. And we all want it, right? We all care about it. And the only way to get it is distracting yourself from it and being clever about it at times. And a lot of that's why you always hear, like, oh, it's the process, not the results in so many sports. Like, I know that sounds like BS, and it's it's it's you know, at this point it's been beaten to death, but finding some version of that for yourself is I think how you find like enduring satisfaction and better results. Yeah. Because I I can tell you, like, I was just making a YouTube video on like, you know, what it takes to make it to scratch. And honestly, the last point I made was like, even if you make it, or whatever that number is for you, like it's not going to solve. You won't feel that differently about yourself. Like, you're not gonna wake up being a new person. Like, you will adjust to it. Humans adjust to everything, good or bad. Like, you're not gonna be satisfied forever. Like, there'll be something else, you'll move a goalpost, you'll do something to kind of you know, move away from like that satisfaction, be like, well, what's next? And Carl always says uh when he was last on our podcast, he always says, I'll be happy when. Oh, yeah. And this is what we do to ourselves, like this is what everyone does to themselves in golf and life. And yeah, like we have to find ways to distract ourselves from the results and and find enjoyment and satisfaction elsewhere. It's hard to do, but um, I love golf. I love shooting low numbers, I love keeping track of my handicap. But if that's all I care about, I'm going to be a miserable psychopath.
SPEAKER_00I think that's part of the beauty of it. It's the it's the game we try to master that will never be mastered. It's like this mirage in the distance.
SPEAKER_02Another term I hear is it's it's it's an infinite game, right? You can play it forever, you're never gonna beat it. Like there'll always be a different challenge. Like as you get older, like, yeah, your physical skills are going to erode. Like that's a separate challenge. And and yeah, that that's why I I hope, you know, I'm 42 now, and I hope I'm in if I make it to my 80s and 90s, like I'm gonna find a different challenge in this game because it certainly won't be the one I'm doing right now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's like Chloe and my wife asked me the other day, she was like, Do you think you'll ever get bored of golf? And I was like, Not possible. Not possible. And I was like, and she's like, Can you can you expand on no? And I was like, Well, they change the pin every week. I was like, Yeah, the weather's constantly I can play loads, there's like thousands and thousands of golf courses out there. Yeah, I was like, there's different different games. Exactly. And it was just uh it was amazing.
SPEAKER_02And you're and you're gonna be different too. Like your swing's gonna feel different, like your body's gonna be different. Like what's going on in your life will be different. Sometimes golf's a better escape for you because things in life are harder. Exactly. Um it never is. Yeah, my daughter, for unfortunately, neither of my kids like golf or play it. And my daughter, who likes to kind of jab at me because she's unfortunately too similar to her dad, she was just like, why do you do this? Like, why do you like you like that? I'm like, I'm like, I can't fathom how you can't do this.
SPEAKER_03Like, this is walking out the door to go to the golf course.
SPEAKER_02And and to be honest, that that does free me. I use that to my advantage under pressure. I've talked about this on the show, is that my kids don't give a crap about how I play. They don't care if I make a tournament, not make a tournament, win my club championship. Like, they just don't care. They care about me being their dad. And I use that as freedom on the course. Like, I use that as something I can kind of grab onto because I know if I don't do it or I do it, like they'll view me just the same. And that's something that resonates with me under pressure. Um, not it wouldn't resonate with everyone else, but that's something that I've found out for my game. Um, so yeah, I I try and like, you know, come up with these different ideas and they change over time. Like that might not work for me in five years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And just like obviously we've covered a lot on expectation management and a bit, I think, on the mental side. The the four foundations, it's expectation management, strategy, practice, and the mental side. But the mental side, it's it's kind of your version of the mental side, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think like, you know, it's sometimes hard to draw a line between like mental game and strategy because, you know, they're they're very intertwined. And that's the conversation I've I know you've had Scott Fawcett on. Like we've talked about that privately, where we're kind of fascinated by like, you know, there is no technical line between the two, or even expectation management. You know, practice you can kind of put in its own place. But um, yeah, I I, you know, I tried to put them separately in the book, but they all work together. Um and yeah, I that's why I'm always interested in other people's ideas on the game. And that's why I think it's good to have different perspectives and voices because you know, something that I might have said in this podcast might have resonated with someone. Just one thing I said, and that kernel of an idea can be like, oh, I will approach this differently. It might help them. Or they might think this was the most boring, irrelevant thing they've ever heard. And maybe another guest on your show said something that resonated with them. So I think that's again what coaching is is people are finding different ways to say the same thing. And ultimately, like, what is going to get people to change their habits and get them motivated to change something in their game to get better? Because that's what you need to do. You need to be doing something different than what you're currently doing if you want a different result. And sometimes, like, you know, something you hear from someone just doesn't motivate you, and you're like, yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't get me going. Um, that's why I like I'm I'm fascinated by ideas and perspectives, and why I've tried to come up with so many different ones over the years because yeah, it's like a comedian and the and the different jokes they write. Like some of them will hit with one audience and and fall flat with others.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, I think the thing that's and just obviously you've just said it there, but it stuck with me with that. You were saying like your kids, when you come home, they don't they just want dad. They don't like and that's and that the way I look at it is like when I come home, like Chloe's not interested in golf at all. So but she's happy for me to be interested. Yeah. And I think it just works perfect that like in those moments, that's something like say you're saying take something away, like I've taken so much. That is something when I'm in those big pressure moments where it's like, if I went home and said I shot six over, and or I shot three under.
SPEAKER_02She'd be like, oh nice, nice, okay, cool. Whatever. Is that good? Is that bad? Yeah, they'd be like, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, that's the my kids' reaction. They're like, I don't know what you're telling me right now. What's for dinner? Like, yeah, what's for dinner? Like, yeah, are you coming to my practice later on? Um and that, yeah, I mean, it that's really what you you're you're you're trying to find perspective in a moment when it's difficult to have perspective because your mind's racing and it's like searching for something. And if you have that list beforehand and you build that list over time of what you can go to, then those moments get a little bit easier. And sometimes, and sometimes you just get overwhelmed by the moment, and that's okay too. Like I don't want to give the impression that like I always figure this out. Like sometimes I get overwhelmed and I can't slow my mind down, and that's okay as well.
SPEAKER_03Do you have like a physical list that you've written out before, or not really just like you have a lot of people?
SPEAKER_02I'm not big. I think this depends on the player. So for example, you know, McKenzie, um, he's a very the the reason why we get along is he's a very cerebral, like deep thinker. And he will write down, you know, again, he's listening he's playing for a living. This is a much different level he's at. But but what he does is like when he's preparing for his round, you know, he's reviewing the pin sheets in this hotel room the night before, and he writes down two or three things that he really wants to focus on in his yardage book. And you know, sometimes we discuss what those things are, and he will refer to that when he's on the course, like just seeing the phrase, like be that guy, whatever it is on that day. Um and that it changes from time to time for him. But yeah, if you have a short defined list, whether you write it down, someone like me, my brain's kind of like a filing cabinet, so I just kind of like pull these things out. My if you went inside my brain, you'd probably like run in the opposite direction. Um, I I'm not a big person to write things down, but like I kind of have an intuitive sense of what they're gonna be for me on any given day. So choose your own adventure here, but if you can build this list, I think it can help you a lot. And it doesn't have to be long, it can be very short and very simple.
SPEAKER_00And how did that all come about? Am I right in saying that he just kind of listened to the sweet spot or he like a little bit out of your no, no, all right?
SPEAKER_02He was reading my tweet. He was reading my tweets. I noticed sometime in like I mean it's over three years ago, but yeah, I noticed like you know, sometimes if someone like big follows you on Twitter, they used to like show you to you and like, oh, like, oh, Mackenzie Hughes followed me. And I had a few like tour players follow me. I'm like, that's cool. And then one day he like retweeted one of my threads on the mental game, and he's like, this is spot on. And I'm like, oh, nice. Um, and then like a month or two later, he DM'd me and was like, Hey, you know, I really appreciate your insights. Like, I know it's for the average player, but it's really helping me. And I was like, ha ha ha, that's funny. And he's like, Would you like, I don't know if you coach, would you want to talk? And I'm like, Yeah, I guess I never coached Amo before. And we spoke for a few hours the next morning and really hit it off. Um, and yeah, it was kind of a bizarre thing for both of us. Um, but it's you know, it's worked that we've had a a great, you know, partnership and friendship, and he's a he's a as good of a guy as he had as a golfer. Um, but yeah, I've learned a lot. As much as I've tried to help him, I've also learned a lot from you know having this really inside look into like truly the highest level of golf and what it takes.
SPEAKER_00Do you find even at that level that obviously their skill level, how far they hit it, all of that is just way like at a different level to us amateur golfers. But you know, do you find that psychologically they're almost in a similar kind of space to anyone who plays golf?
SPEAKER_02No, I don't I mean my contention is that I I still think like if you if you're a professional athlete, there's something in you that we don't fully understand yet. Like, you know, they did the 10,000 hours thing and that didn't really work out. Like I just think like neurologically and their life experiences, their genetics, and there's just something that kind of works. Like, why I always ask Mikael, like, why do you think you made it? He doesn't know. Like he there's a 10,000 other guys who worked just as hard as him, but why did he make it in someone else? Like he has something that's special about him that he's able to handle these moments. And I would say I can never prove it, but I think if there was a strokes-gained mental statistic on the PGA tour, I think he'd be near the top of it. I do believe he's better at it than a lot of other players. Um, but does he have the same club face control that Scotty Scheffler has? No, he does not. He is not as skilled there, and he's working on that still. So I think that, you know, there's certain DNA of certain players' games where I know playing partners he's been with, like there are guys losing their mind left and right out there and doing some like pretty crazy things under pressure, and yet they still make a living. Like they're not all buttoned up and perfect. I can tell you that. I think he's better than most, and we're trying to get him even better at it. Um, but yeah, I think it's their physical skill and ability is just on such a different level. It's really hard to comprehend at times. Um, and I don't think anyone knows for sure why. But obviously, there's the hard work and all that stuff. But of course, everyone who makes it to that level is gonna work hard, and even the guys just below it are working their butts off too. Um, but yeah, there's just something about them that they can handle this lifestyle and the travel and the expectations and the money and the pressure. Uh, it's really hard. It is so hard. And I just have I have such a respect for anyone who tries to play the game for a living because you know it's a big risk, it's really hard to do. I could never do it. Um, and it takes like a very specific tool set to get it done.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we were talking about obviously before him the podcast, when we were talking about meeting Andy Murray, and it was Dave, there were when you when we were speaking to him, you could just tell that he was like behind the eyes thinking about the chip that is to the left of him. It was crazy, like he but he's in love with the game. You could just yeah, as soon as we asked him something about our cost, like the the tracking of the shots, you just like unraveled like this so much stuff, and you could just tell that it has transferred that kind of like athlete winning big competitions, so locked in. He trains, doesn't he, Dave? We were saying like for five hours a day, yeah, like just going through each section, and he does that five to six days a week.
SPEAKER_02I would say one of the you know abilities of like the ultra-elite is that they are able to withstand the mundane, yeah, boring, repetitive tasks. Like if I had to, you know, when I hear about you know what Mackenzie goes through before every round and afterwards and the work he puts in, like I would I I I cannot do it. I'd be bored, I would lose, I'd lose focus, I wouldn't be motivated enough. I just couldn't do it. Like they're able to maintain focus and like put in a level of work and and just it's not it's not. Normal. Right. And it shouldn't be normal because you know they're doing something that you know the point zero zero zero one percent who play do. Um and yeah, it's just like that ability to withstand like I'll be out here for five hours and I'm gonna make sure I spend it effectively, or even thirty minutes or forty minutes. Like they're they're exceptional at that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00There was like an aura of stealth-like intensity from from Andy Murray, just hit somebody who's trying to like so many of us, you know, maybe listening to this podcast, so many trying to get better at golf, and that that was exactly what was going on there.
SPEAKER_02And sometimes, you know, what's funny is like I've gotten to play with a bunch of ex-athletes at this point in different contexts. And it's funny, you see if some of them it translates well to golf. Like I've played with some ex-athletes, you know, Super Bowl winners, other like, they're horrible at golf. They they they stink and they can't get better.
SPEAKER_03LeBron James is shocking at golf right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it's just you know the physicality didn't transfer over. Where again, I played with like, you know, some NFL kickers or or major league pitchers and they're like already plus fives, and you're like, oh my god, like I wish I could play like that. So it's kind of funny like what transfers and what doesn't, but either way, like you know, that focus and like that ability, it yeah, there's something there that you know you you know it when you see it, but you're like, well, how do you actually do it? I don't know. You know? You can try to mimic it, but it won't get the same results for most people.
SPEAKER_00And with Mackenzie Hughes, like what would a typical, I guess, coaching session between you and him look like? Would you be following your sort of four foundations, or how would that play out?
SPEAKER_02No, I mean it it's really, you know, we we kind of review, so you know, prior to the tournament, we'll kind of talk, you know, like this week he's playing at um at the I think it's called the Truest now. So it's a signature event at Wells Fargo. I mean, at um uh not Wells Fargo, it used to be Wells Fargo. Um it's his home course in Charlotte, the best uh why am I forgetting the name of the course? They've had major championships there. Quail Hollow. Um it's a home game for him. So you know, today's Monday. We'll probably talk tonight or tomorrow night and just kind of like establish some intentions for the week and see how he's feeling. It's a home game, so there's more pressure here, and he's dealt with this before. Um so we'll kind of just go over like what does he want to tell me on Sunday night? Like, what does he absolutely want to achieve this week? No matter how he's gonna get to play four rounds no matter what. There's no cut, which is nice. And we're gonna talk about like what are the things he wants to absolutely say to me on Sunday night that he did. Um, a lot of that's gonna be about his attitude, you know, the process with his caddy. He has a new caddy and they're trying to, you know, hone in on their process together. Um, you know, dealing with not trying too hard because it's easy for him to do this week because it's a home game. So we're gonna establish some intentions for the week. And then after every round, we will talk and we will review kind of what stuck out like a sore thumb. What went well, what didn't go well. Um, he just kind of lets it all out. It's a good, it's kind of like a journaling for him. So he's gonna call me up and just kind of like let it all out of what happened, good or bad.
SPEAKER_00Like a stream of consciousness kind of moment in this guy, right?
SPEAKER_02It's like verbal journaling for him. So he just that alone is healthy because it just kind of gets it all out. He's got to get it all out to someone. And then, you know, we're gonna see is there something, you know, what do you do well? What do you not do? Is there adjustments he needs to make for the next day? So we're just kind of looking for clues. We're comparing against his intentions and what he was trying to hold himself accountable to. Were there any decisions with his caddy? Like, you know, there's a lot of 50-50 decisions that happen during a round in professional golf where maybe you had to make a judgment call and you kind of deconstruct how that conversation went, maybe how he handled a poor shot, if he hung on to it too long. So it's just kind of like things that we know about his game at this point that we're looking out for. And then, you know, we send him on the next day and be like, okay, maybe he needs to do a better job, or maybe he just needs to do the same. We'll see. But we're just trying to look for clues. Um, we're trying to give him credit at times for things that maybe he didn't give himself credit for. Uh so yeah, it could be strategic stuff, could be mental stuff, um, or it could be as simple as like, yeah, did great today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. That's it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Sometimes it's five minutes and it's sometimes it's an hour.
SPEAKER_03I don't, you know, it depends. And I think that translates, like, just to kind of like round it off and like bring it back to what you're doing with him, I think can translate to like, say, for example, like the people we're speaking to are saying like journaling, like see like you're saying get your hands dirty, where it went wrong, like looking at the bad shots. It's like did you hang on to it too long? Yeah, we saw that as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I don't have a John, so I do it myself. Um, I just do this like mentally when I'm driving home. I have been like toying around with a little AI app idea where I can maybe help people do this. Like with my I I'm not sure if I'm going to release it or not. It's I don't know if it's ready, but like I think this process of like setting intentions and holding yourself accountable to it and reviewing it and kind of tracking your progress is very helpful. So you could do it on a very basic level, you could get very advanced with statistics if you want, but you know, we don't we're kind of like somewhere in between that where we're not like going crazy, but at the same time, this isn't a surface level discussion, it's somewhere in between. But yeah, I think everyone can do that on their own. I like I said, I do it on my own and I try and you know review the things that I set out to do, and if I did a good job of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think in this day and age in golf, there's just so much data. There's so much you're talking about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you yeah, that I I yeah, that that's absolutely the last thing you want to do is overwhelm yourself with things that are not going to move the needle or distract you from even the stuff that you should be doing. So I prefer to keep it like simple to medium, whereas, you know, somebody who's like an engineer, for example. So I met a lot of people who like are engineers who play golf and they're like, oh, look at all my spreadsheets. And I'm like, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, you know what? I wouldn't do that, but I'm happy if that's how you want to approach the game and and you you think it's fun tracking everything, like go for it. That clearly is the type of person you are. And if that, if that's fun and makes this hobby and this thing for you better, like I have no problem with that. Like, it's not for me because that's just not the type of brain I have. So that's again like deciding what type of personality and like relationship you're gonna have with the game. Like it should be you, right? You shouldn't be trying to pretend to be someone else you aren't. Like if you hear about stats on a podcast and you're like, oh, I'm gonna get Arcos and track everything, and you're like, This is stupid. Like, this feels like a chore. Like, forget it, don't do it. Like, you don't have to do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think I think your message rings so true. Like, and I think it's the whole everybody can find a way, their own way, to how they can do it. Like, obviously, you can tell them all these different things, but like you said, someone that has graphs might not work for them, it might be journaling, it might be verbal journaling, and you just need to I do it in like I said, I do it in my head.
SPEAKER_02I don't speak it out loud. It's just like this internal conversation I have that works for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, great. Are there any stats that you think all golfers should truck?
SPEAKER_02So I'm about to release a YouTube video on like a very simple stat tracking system, but here it is very basically like I would just give a check or an X to each category. So T shots, check is did I hit it close to my typical distance and keep it in play? So that's either on the fairway or in the rough with a clear path to the green. Check. Did I not do one of those? Did I hit it 40 yards short of where it was or in a bunker or in the trees? X. Approach shots. Check is do you hit it on the green in regulation or within 15 or 20 yards around the green with a straightforward wedge shot? Check. Did I hit it in a bunker or farther than 20 yards away from the green? X. Uh wedge shots. Did you hit it within 10 to 20 feet of the hole? Check. Did you not? X. Putting. Three putts, and you can track make rates between three to six feet and six to ten. That would be it for me. If you could have those checks and X's and then more importantly, review them and seeing if you can find a trend in ball striking using the big three that Adam and I use. It was an impact location, club face control, ground contact, strategic mistake or mental mistake, and you start figuring out where your X's are coming from in a broad sense and take ownership of the checks that you didn't really notice because those are actually good shots. That's a very simple system anyone could use. I'm giving it away for free because I'm so benevolent. You could use stroke skein, you could do all that, that's fine too. But like when I sat down and like think about how I look at my game, that's essentially what I'm looking at. It's like good shot, bad shot. Was it a bad shot? Why? Maybe it was just a normal occurrence and swing. Were there five of them? All right, I need to pay attention to that. Close club face. Okay, I'll work on that in the next practice session. Or maybe I was just being bad with my decision making that day. You're just figuring out why are there so many X's and and can I get more checks?
SPEAKER_00Really, really like that. I'm kind of yeah, strokes gain, don't get me wrong, that has revolutionized it's great.
SPEAKER_02I love strokes gain. Um yeah. But you have to track every single shot to get it. So that that's a set separate level of like responsibility you need to be willing to go through.
SPEAKER_00I think that's right. And I think for me, uh maybe this is controversial, but I also just think calling it strokes gained, whenever we're trying to lose strokes, we're trying to get lower strokes doesn't set the perspective thing.
SPEAKER_02You could change the name if you want.
SPEAKER_00But I guess anyway, uh speaking of benevolent, because we're so benevolent on this podcast, John. We will, if this is released at the time, we will definitely drop a link to this YouTube stun tracking video that is coming soon in the show notes because that sounds really useful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I've tried to create like a big resource on my YouTube channel, the last year and a half. It's just John Sherman Goff, but it'll be on there or not by the time this comes out. Yeah, I actually just shot the video this morning, so within the next week or two it'll come out.
SPEAKER_00Oh, brilliant. Well, looking forward to that. Um, mindful of your time, John. Um, we're not going to keep you much longer. I guess last thing I wanted to ask you is, you know, something from your kind of personal golf uh perspective, like where you want to get to. So, you know, obviously Chris and I, we've set out our targets. Chris wants to get to scratch, I want to get to single figures. We call the show How Low Can You Go? And sometimes we just ask that question to our guests. So, how low can you go, John Sherman, in 2020? What's your target? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I I don't have any. I'm not, I'm not, you know, Adam and I argue about this at times, but I'm not I'm not an external goal person. I'm just not. Um some of the best things I've achieved have been just kind of like happenstance or like um I have a scorecard back here where I shot a 64. I didn't I wasn't trying to shoot a 64 that year. It wasn't even on my radar. I had no idea I was capable of it. It just happened. Um I guess I'm at a point where I've I've crossed a threshold of playing ability that fortunately I never thought I could get to. Like I'm sometimes like as I said, I was playing with those guys the other day who are, you know, best players in my area, and you know, comfortable with them amongst a peer of them. I never, you know, really imagined that I would get to that level. And I sometimes I have a bit of an imposter syndrome at times about it, which is you know, my own baggage. But to that point, like I don't know if I'm gonna get better. Like, I don't know if I can keep getting better at this point. It's just I'm more concerned with like, am I enjoying this pursuit of putting in the work? You know, do I keep playing so many tournaments? Like, yeah, I still enjoy it. I still think there's more surface to scratch there. But yeah, I'm just I'm really focused on like having good experiences with friends and meeting new people. Um if I shoot some nice rounds this year under par, that'll make me happier for sure. I I I think I shot two under in that round with those guys. I drove home, I'm like, yeah, that was nice. First under par round of the year. I think it was my third round. I'm like, that felt good. I liked that. So I don't want to give the impression that it doesn't get me going. It does. But I don't I couldn't tell you one tangible goal I have for this year. Yeah. We'll put you down for a 63, a 63 then maybe, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I yeah, if it happens, great. Like the putter would have to get red hot. Um no S words would happen. Uh-huh. Um, but yeah, I I just I think for the type of person that I am, because I was so numbers numbers-oriented, and that was a problem for me, that I've had to go in the opposite direction. And someone listening to this, maybe they do need those external goals to motivate them and get them. That's why I'm not against them. Just for me at this point in my life, they're not that important to me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Well, Dave and I have a weird, we've actually built a podcast on reaching those goals.
SPEAKER_02So and Yeah, and I hope, and I hope that many unforeseen benefits will come from that that have nothing to do with that goal. Right? Yeah, no doubt. That's the cool part about doing stuff like that, and even setting the goal in the first place, is that something else will happen along the journey, and you're like, oh, that was because I set out this goal, like this happened, and you know, that was great too. So, you know, that we just don't know what's gonna happen, right? I uh last point I'll leave you with, I was listening to some podcasts on goals from Goal Expert. And he was like, one of the reasons he didn't love them, and the research didn't point to external goals at times, was that you know, you're trying to predict the future, and predicting the future is really hard. Yeah, right? Like you just don't know what's gonna happen. You know, physically something could change, like, or something in your you you don't know what's gonna happen. All you can control are your inputs at times, and that's you know what I kind of like more and get more jazzed up about these days. So yeah, I think it's just something that people should think about and not get too extreme. If you're only about external goals, well, maybe set some other ones that are you know are controllables, or maybe if you're maybe too much like me and you just don't care enough at times, maybe you do need to push yourself a bit to write something down that you want to achieve. Maybe I need some more of that, and I'll think about that after this podcast. But that's how I view these things. We're all on different ends of the spectrum and need to find a balance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's part of not to get too sentimental here, but part of the beauty of golf is you know, as we all yeah, completely we all try and get better. Like there's very few people go and play golf who aren't trying to get better at golf.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it it's kind of like it's too it's so obvious. Like, of course we are, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Like of course, it's the whole point, really. But you know, as a byproduct of that, a great byproduct, you end up meeting a lot of good people along the way, you know. As long as you know, as you say, you're not you're not just so hell-bent on the score, and then you're a terrible playing partner, so nobody wants to play with you. But you do, we get we get along this podcast uh kind of quest that we've been on, we've we've got to meet a lot of really cool people like yourself, John. So thank you very much indeed for joining us. It's yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure.
SPEAKER_02I feel like I've been hit like sometimes this happens to me when I talk to people on these podcasts where I'll get hit with like your celebrity doppelganger, but Dave, it hit it just hit me, both of you. Like Dave's got a little Justin Rose going, and Chris has a little Lewis Hamilton going. By the way, I I have actually you've got that before, Chris. Yeah, I was in the dude. It just the Justin Rose one hit me first. I'm like, he looks like Justin Rose, and in the last two minutes, I'm like I'm like, I I I watch F1 here and there. I've gotten into the Netflix show, but I'm like, we got a Lewis Hamilton going on over here. What is it?
SPEAKER_03I had uh I was sitting at the the Pantheon with my wife, and we were getting it was a beautiful dinner, and all of a sudden I hear Lewis, Lewis, yeah, yeah. Someone was sitting beside us and they're like Lewis Hamlin, and I looked around and I was like, no, no.
SPEAKER_02They're like, I'll sign your I'll sign the autograph for a thousand quid.
SPEAKER_03Once I reach scratch.
SPEAKER_00As I approach my mid-40s, I'm hopeful good times ahead.
SPEAKER_02We gotta get McLaren to send you a set of clubs now. That would be good.
SPEAKER_00Those are expensive per club. I've seen those doing the rounds. Uh price. Um thank you so much, Joan. Last thing, just just uh for our listeners, where can people find you? What's the best place for people to go to check out your your stuff, your books and everything?
SPEAKER_02Uh I'm not really active on social media much anymore, perhaps if ever. I don't know if I'm going back. But you know, basic things are Sweet Spot Podcast, uh, my books, the Four Foundations of Golf and the Foundations of Winning Golf, which is on competitive golf or on Amazon, and my YouTube channel, which is just John Sherman Golf. And I did also launch a separate YouTube channel that I'll plug now called Golf Gear Explained, which is a joint venture with Pete's Golf, which is a great club fitter. So we're more focusing on you know educating people about how equipment works and kind of looking past all the marketing hype. So those are all my projects and where you can find my stuff. And as always, you know, thank you for the support and listening to the show and getting the book. I appreciate that a lot. Yeah, legend. Thanks so very much.
SPEAKER_00Pleasure, John. And if I know you plan to be in Scotland, but it sounds like you've got a pretty full itinerary. But anytime you come over here, just look us up. You know, Chris is a member up in Nairn. Uh fantastic course.
SPEAKER_02So I tried to play Nairn, but we missed out. There was an amateur event. I played uh I played many of the other great courses around there, most notably uh uh Dornik. Um it's special up there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so have you ever want a game and uh I will be in New York, I think, in autumn or the fall, as you guys call it. Um so I'll maybe give you a shout then reach out. Uh yeah. Alex John. Thanks, Alex, John. Take care. Thank you, John Sherman, once again. Thanks for joining us. Honestly, I think what I will take away most from that conversation is the idea of improvement. Way better about finding some magic formula, some secret, and much more about how you respond when things are not going well. That idea of getting your hands dirty on the bad day, I think that is so, so good. And that is gonna go with me the next time I am having a chakra, which I hope won't be anytime soon, but let's face it. They're never too far away, unfortunately, in this game. If you enjoyed this episode, please just follow the show wherever you are listening, and why not take a moment, leave a review, that would really help us out. Like John Sherman. And you can find us on Instagram, Hardlock and GoPodcast. And if you haven't already, definitely check out John's work, the tweets podcast he co-hosts with Adam Young. Uh really, really good stuff in there, really good guests very often. It's book four foundations of golf and the foundations of winning golf, plus it's YouTube channel, John ShermanGolf. So no more giving up after three holes. Let's all go and get our hands dirty with this game. We'll see you next time. On High Low Can You Go.
SPEAKER_01High Low Can You Go.