The Fastest Way to Lower Your Scores | Mark Immelman (Part 1)

“Golf isn’t a game of perfect… it’s a game of recovery.”

That simple idea sits at the heart of this conversation with Mark Immelman—one of golf’s great communicators, CBS Sports commentator and host of the acclaimed On the Mark podcast.

In Part One of this special two-part series, Mark challenges some of the biggest assumptions amateur golfers make about improving. We talk about why so many players become obsessed with technique, the idea of ‘Shot Number Three’, why the best coaches see golf as an orchestra rather than a collection of individual parts, and how accepting imperfection might just transform the way you play.

The conversation then takes an unexpected turn into flow state, the emotional pull of great golf courses and why, at its very best, golf can become something that reaches far beyond scorecards and swing positions.

Whether you’re trying to break 100, 90 or 80, this is an episode that will change the way you think about the game.

In this episode:

• Why golf is a game of recovery, not perfection
• Mark’s brilliant concept of ‘Shot Number Three’
• The orchestra analogy that every golfer should hear
• Putting, perspective and playing with freedom
• Flow state and finding your best golf
• Why the greatest golf courses can move us emotionally

Next week in Part Two…

Mark turns philosophy into practice.

He maps out exactly how Dave can become a better golfer, shares stories from Sir Nick Faldo and Jack Nicklaus, explains why carry distances matter so much, and reveals the habits that separate good golfers from great ones.

We’ll also take you behind the scenes from Scottish Open week, where what began as a podcast interview turned into an unforgettable day playing golf together in Gullane and North Berwick.

🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW

How Low Can You Go explores how amateur golfers can improve their game, lower their scores, and actually understand what moves the needle — without wasting time on the wrong things.

🎧 Listen now and start turning bad rounds into better golf.

📸 Instagram
 https://www.instagram.com/howlowcanyougopodcast/

📺 YouTube
 https://www.youtube.com/@HowLowCanYouGoPodcast

💌 Contact
 howlowcanyougopodcast@gmail.com

⭐ If you enjoyed this episode, please follow the podcast, leave us a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating and share it with a golfing friend. It genuinely helps us reach more golfers who are on exactly the same journey.

🎟️ HLCYG LIVE with KARL MORRIS — JOIN THE PRIORITY LIST

We’re building a premium two-day golf improvement experience in Scotland this autumn.

Karl has worked with multiple Major winners, including 2026 Open Champion Ryan Fox. World-class coaching, great golf, in a premium setting in late October ‘26. Spaces will be limited.

Want to be there? Join the priority list and help us build this: 

👉 https://preview.mailerlite.io/forms/2559730/255047744458459042/share

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:47

If you just want to chop strokes off your handicap easily, quickly, I would get really good at chock number three. I would focus on that.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Welcome back to How Low Can You Go, the Golf Improvement Podcast, born in Scotland. Our guest today is one of golf's great communicators, Mark Emmelman, and someone who's spent a lifetime helping golfers answer the very question we ask every week. How low can you go? For many golf fans, Mark has become one of the defining voices in the game through his work with CBS and on the PTA tour. And while his on the mark podcast has become essential listening for golfers everywhere looking to improve. So in this first part of our conversation, we go way beyond golf instruction. We talk about why so many golfers chase the wrong improvements. The one part or the one shot in your game, Mark believes, will lower your scores the fastest. Putting, pace control, the never up, never-in debate, flow state, and why golf can feel almost spiritual when everything comes together. This is a conversation that genuinely changed the way Chris and I think about the game. And I think you'll come away looking at your own game differently as well. So let's sit down with Mark Immelman. This is How Low Can You Go. How low can you go? Okay, welcome back everyone once again to How Low Can You Go, the golf improvement podcast, born in Scotland. If you've been listening for any length of time, you will know that Chris and I are trying to reach our ambitious golf targets. Chris is a low single-digit player, trying to get to scratch, and I'm a mid-handicap, trying to get to single figures. And along this relatively short podcast journey that we've been on, we have been blessed. We have been very fortunate to speak to some of the brightest minds in the world of golf improvement. And Chris, we've had some pretty surreal moments. I must say, we've spoken to the likes of Dr. Raymond Pryor, Carl Morris, Scott Fawcett, John Sherman to name but a few. But I would say, Chris, today is right up there with how surreal this show is getting. We are welcoming today Mark Emoman, announcer on CBS for the PGA Tour and also esteemed host of On the Mark, the On the Mark podcast, which I have listened to intently for many years. I feel like I know you already, Mark. Welcome to How Low Can You Go.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

It's great to see you. Thanks, Dave. It's good to be with you boys. Um, you Scottish guys have a knack of buttering up your guests before you uh before you uh kind of bring the skinny on everything. No, it's it's it's great to be with you guys. Um look, as a longtime podcaster, I am so thankful for guys like you. Because uh people download podcasts and just expect that these things arrive out of thin air. But I know the work you're putting in behind this and and finding guests is sometimes challenging, but golly, by the guys you've had, I'm I'm not so sure I fit that mold. So we'll we'll do what I can today, please.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Now it's your turn to butter us up, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, see. Maybe lead. I think I've I've I've figured you out. Chris is the good-looking one, you you're the charmer, and uh we're gonna go get through there now. I guess we'll take that, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I'll I'll take that. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah, I'll definitely take that too.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Um and Mark, obviously, you've got your own podcast, and you're a very, very well-known announcer on CBS. You're also a coach, you've coached for many, many years. Uh and I think you would describe yourself as a holistic uh golf coach where you try and blend all of the elements of this game. Uh, Chris and I, in our quest to try and get just a bit better at golf, trying to get to our targets, we laid out our kind of five key components for golf improvement. And uh they are including mental and performance, they're including technique, they're including strategy, golf fitness. Um we thought it would be good to speak to someone like you who has that kind of holistic view to really blend a lot of that together. Uh, we also want to hear from you about your experiences inside the ropes when it comes to speaking to some of the best on the planet. But from us, lowly club golfers uh perspective, what would you say? Uh just to kick things off and put you on the spot, like what would really help shift the needle for players like us who want us knock, like, say, three to five shots off our handicaps?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Okay, I'm gonna sort of give you the philosophical thing, and then I'll give you the purely mechanical thing. Because uh I feel like they are equally important, maybe uh in a way. Uh and and the first thing I'd say was, and this was maybe on maybe there's a recency bias here, because recently uh the Michigan PGA had me up to speak to their teacher symposium. And the title of my presentation or talk was going from teacher to coach. So now I'm speaking to your fans and to you guys like like a coach, because for the longest time I was just a golf instructor. But then my time in college golf helped me to realize that there's more to it than just wrist flexion and body rotation and all these sorts of things that sometimes can get a little wrapped up. And one of the points I made in that presentation was um there's a real hammer and nail theory going on in instruction right now with the advent of all the information we have. And that's where with my show, I'm trying to make heads or tails of this stuff for people who are trying to get better. Because it all seems sexy, right? Like if if I go to social media and I type in golf instruction, and they're these dudes that are dressed nicely using big words, and I'm like, dang, this is so cool. But then I have to catch myself and go, does this really apply to me? And so to get back to the hammer and nail thing, uh I view it like this. You know the old cliche, and I'm a big one for cliches because they're rooted in fact. It's like if all you have in your tool belt is a hammer, everything in the world will appear like a nail. Right? And golf is full of instructors nowadays that are not one-trick ponies, but they have their bet. So you could there'll be guys that are talking about ground force reaction all the time. And everything to them is a ground force reaction problem. Then you'll have guys that talk about, you know, wrist alignments, and everything to them will be a wrist alignment issue. And I feel like the the learner of the information then, because these guys aren't doing, or girls aren't saying the wrong stuff, they're saying it all very well, but you need to understand how the whole lot, like this orchestra, if you will, of 64 parts all has to play together for you to get the most out of your game. So so that's the sort of the philosophical point I'd point out. And then I'd say, if you just want to chop strokes off your handicap easily, quickly, um, I would get really good at shot number three. I would focus on that. Because uh in the I I wrote a book here recently, and and I've always had this little ditty, this kind of poem. Um, I don't know if it's a poem or not, but I say to people, I'm like, if you're good at shot number one, you'll make fewer big numbers, fewer sixes and sevens and eights and stuff like that. But if you're good at shot number three, you're gonna make a lot of threes and fours. So for any golfer listening to this, if you really want to get after your handicap and lower your score quickly, go and see what every third shot you hit, what are they? And go and get good at those. And this is not mine, I've just sort of turned it into a little phrase. And my hero Bobby Jones, Bob Jones, um was quoted as saying the secret to golf is turning three strokes into two. And I just want people to think about this now to say, okay, three into two, um, that's kind of around the green, on the green. Because those shots you don't necessarily need speed and power and all these athletic attributes. Anyone can chip the ball close, anyone can learn to hit up in your guys' neck of the woods. When I was over in Gullen last year for the Scottish Open, I played with a couple folks there and and this poor lady couldn't get out of a greenside pot bunker. And the pro had said to her, just avoid the bunkers, which is smart, but you know, sometimes you can't avoid these things. So I showed her how to hit them properly, and she got out of every single one. And that to me is like shot number three. Not hitting it in a pot bunker in Scotland and suddenly walking off there with six or seven, as opposed to making, you know, three, maybe, or four, or certainly five, if you've done well. So there's philosophical, there's mechanical, uh and and I feel like if people keep those things in mind, you're likely going to stack the odds in your favor.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Like that a lot. Uh unfortunately for me, Mark, uh, sometimes my shot number three is off the T.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Very well, yes, that's a good point. Well, just make sure shot number three off the T doesn't turn into shot number five off the T. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah, no, that's fantastic. And and I think just drilling in on that a little bit, and I love the point you're making about yeah, getting good at those shots around the green or on the green, because you know, I guess if we start from the hole and work our way backwards, we on this relatively short podcast quest that Chris and I have been on, we have heard time and again from the great guests we've had on is pace control, pace control, pace control. We're hearing that all the time. However, having listened to your show a lot, I know that you often will say things like, I've never once seen the whole move back to the ball. So yeah, I've said that. So, so where do you sit, Mark? Because we have seen quite a bit of debate, and I'm sure you're familiar with a lot of the debate. We've got the never up, never in guys, you know, versus versus you've got like Alex Huang and Scott Fawcett from uh decade golf, where they're just like let that ball just creep around the hole and leave plenty of them short. Where do you sit on that with pace control?

SPEAKER_00 13:13

That's a great question. And uh depending on the number of glasses of wine you offer me, I may vacillate on this point. Now, kidding aside, um here's the truth about that sort of stuff in that at its root, golf is a game of distance and direction. And a lot of golfers are very concerned with direction, where distance control is the main thing. And Scott and Alex and all these guys, the the mathematicians of it, they're correct. If you get the ball within a certain um distance of the hole, you stack the odds in your favor. Okay, simple as that. And they will say that a four-footer downhill is um better than having a six-footer uphill. And at its root, if you're just playing pure probability, that is correct. But I will put you over some four-footers downhill for argument's sakes, that if the thing hits the edge of the hole, you've got six feet coming back. So the answer to your question is it's purely situational. Like when I was a college coach, I called every put to all of the guys who are on my team an opportunity. And certain opportunities are easier than others. So let's put it this way every opportunity you have inside of 15 feet within reason, is a good chance of making that shot. To use a golf announcer term that I hate, the shot's makeable. Every shot's makeable, but okay. But if you're outside of 15 feet, then your main goal is to start to try and avoid three putts, you know, turning three strokes into two. And then the algorithmic guys will say, Well, most golfers on average will hit the ball to 35, 40 feet or whatever. So lag putting becomes a skill, right? Which is true. And if you're putting from 40 feet, if you get the ball inside of four feet on any side of the hole, you're doing pretty well. Because it's not that easy. But I will then on the other side of the coin say to you, man, if you got 15 feet, at least give the hole a chance to catch the ball. Because if it's been left short, I would say to my team, that opportunity hasn't been taken. Yeah, we're in the era of the we're in the time now where it's soccer world cup going on. Okay. You guys are from the British Isles. If you got a penalty kick and you don't get the ball to the goal line, you get it, you're getting me, right? Yeah. So if you got a penalty kick, give the net a chance or try and get it past the goalie. Where I find so many golfers, when they're over that sort of um not must-make stuff, but makeable stuff, that they'll end up leaving the ball short in the interests of not three putting. I'm I'll say to a person, when you're working on getting better at shot number three, go and hit those putts and let them roll a couple, three feet past, and then make those comebackers to prove to yourself you can. But when you're 40, 50 feet away, yeah, from there, two is really good. Try and avoid three kind of deal. So that's where I sit. And I don't want to sound like I'm sort of, you know, sitting both sides of the fence, but golf is a situational game. It truly is. And Scott Fawcett, I've had him on my show countless times. Yeah. I think I might I think I might have made Scott famous. Um where he'll give me the stuff and I'll be, yeah, that's right. And you'll tell me that angles don't matter when you're playing approach shots right now. And I will say to you, Scott, I'm gonna take you to places that I see on the PGA tour where you might be close to the green, closer than some guy in the fairway with a better angle. And he'll want his angle before you every day of the week, and twice on Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays when they're playing for money. So you see, so you see, it's it's easy to broad stroke stuff like that. Yeah. But I'm saying to people, if you want to make putts, start to focus inside 15 feet and give the hole a chance to catch the ball. Now, that all being said, that uh Mark hasn't given you the mandate to whack this thing six feet past the hole. The best quote I ever heard from Ben Crenshaw, I was actually teaching my brother at the time, and Crenshaw was with us on the putting green. He was a pretty good putter. Yeah, he was okay. He was so good, he took this blade putter of his, right, and he had a T in his hand, and he'd point with the tip of the T on the putter where the sweet spots were. And he goes, If I hit it there, it's okay. If I hit it there, it doesn't work. With a T that shows you what his fill was like. But he would say, he said to me one time, and it just stuck with me, he goes, I want all of my putts to fall into the hole like a drunk sailor. Which is which which is a nice visual, right? So I'm saying if you've got 15 feet uphill, give it enough speed to topple into the hole. Gotta leave it two feet short. No, don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

And I would just to build on that, Mark, and this is certainly linked to Chris, who shot his best ever round about how long like three days ago, four days ago, Chris? Three days ago, yeah. Uh 67, uh, which I had the pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Don't don't tell Scott Fawcett this was because of him, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:29

Just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah. Um, we do credit a lot of the guys on whenever we have good rounds. Uh so your your time will come, I'm sure, Mark, because after this.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

But um or you'll curse, or you'll, or you'll curse me too.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Uh surely not, surely not. Anyway, I would suggest it'd be great to get your view on this, and also with Chris, is is what I noticed was a lot of those 10 sort of 15 footers, they were dropping for Chris the other day. And probably even like Chris, if we remember my best round last year, shooting 80, which was a personal best for me. Um, you know, I was holding pots all around the show. And I would say, Mark, like you're not gonna have days like that all the time, but to your point, if you are going to really stretch yourself and get your best score on the board, it's probably those moments whenever you are getting that ball to fall in like a drunk sailor on those 15-foot or or around that zone.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

I will say as well that I have tried, like I'm not saying Scott Fawcett's method is wrong, but for myself, I had tried when I was outside of 10 feet, just rolling it up and tapping it in. And I found myself getting in more trouble doing that to when I was shot my best round four days ago, where I was being more attacking and being comfortable with it being a couple feet past the hole. But I will say when I was three under through 15, I did have three opportunities to get bowdies again, but I was just that's when I was. Just get this thing in the ass. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

It literally was like tap this up.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

And on the 18th Sapar 5, I had seven feet for Bowdy, and it was a down right to left slider. And I just said to Dave, I was like, No chance am I going for this. This is getting tapped.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

But but that's part of the golf IQ thing too, because remember the whole hammer and nail thing and the holistic approach? That's golf savvy. To know a shot like that, you're like, well, you know, from seven feet, dude, I I've got a 30% chance of making whatever the number is. You're looking at that thing going, uh, I call it the sphincter factor, you know, that's tightening up a little bit. You know, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Let's keep it clean here, Mark, please.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah, not not every not every seven-footer is the same. And you're looking at this going, two from year is good. That's golf IQ. And the very same people that will give you these theories will lord a golfer for showing great golf savvy or golf IQ is the vernacular. Yeah. Um it's I I'll I'll share a story that I learned from well, I didn't learn it, he told me the story, Bob Roteller. And he's worked with countless major champions, one of them being Raymond Floyd, who was like the ultimate if if you needed a putt made from five feet for your life, he was the guy. Yeah. And he just was had that sort of dog about him. And he had sons that were really good golfers. And um he had Robert Floyd and his other son Raymond. And I'm not sure the son it was, but Robert was really good. And he turns pro and he's not doing as well as what he should. And Ray looked at him with his old school wisdom and he goes, This is not making sense. So he calls Rotella over and he says to Rotella, here's my son. Check this out. When he's two over after three holes, he starts playing more aggressively, which doesn't make sense. He goes, when he's two under through three, he starts playing more defensively, which doesn't make sense. Because by definition, if you two over after three, you don't have your best stuff. So what you gotta do is be smart enough to go, all right, maybe not attack that flag. Let's just play a little safe, let's stabilize this round and try and play my way into some momentum. Let's not turn two over into four over, which was what Robert was doing in missing cuts. Because then on the flip side, he's gotten off to a fast start, flushing the ball, two under through a few holes, and then he's like, I've got to protect this thing on the way in, and then, you know, that's the deal. Now I share that story, not to say you were wrong there in your situation. I feel like you were doing the right thing. If it topples in by happenstance, great. Just don't make take three from there. Remember turning three into two? Yeah. That is simple advice. And every shot, and I say this all the time because I get into knockdown drag-outs with all the folks that worship at the altar of strokes gained. Right? I'm like, let me tell you something. Out there with the best golfers when they're playing their best, certain five-footers, you can look at it on a computer screen and go, Well, he had five feet. I'm like, certain five-footers are riddled with terror. And others are like way are easier. So, whereas the math of it makes sense, golf to me, good golf happens at the intersection between mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional. You can't just make it all about math, or you can't make it all about mental, or it everything has to be in harmony for you for people to have those days when things are going really well.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

We'll take a really quick break here. If you're enjoying the podcast and you want to hear more great guests like Mark Emmelman, please do us a huge favor and just take a moment to follow the show wherever you're listening. Or if you really want to help us out, why not write us a review? Just a really quick review, preferably a good review, come on. And that would really, really be appreciated. Coming up, the conversation takes an interesting turn. We get into flow state, why some rounds feel almost effortless, and why the world's greatest golf courses can genuinely move you emotionally and also spiritually. This gets pretty deep, and that's exactly what we want on this podcast. So let's get back into it. That is exactly what was going on with you the other day, Chris, and it felt spiritual. I actually want to jump on that, Mark, because I want to dive into that. That's that's going pretty deep, and I like the sound of it because I often, if anybody ever asks me why do I play golf, I will say that that harmony between intention and physical forces and that purity of a golf shot, if that happens for you, feels almost spiritual to me. Tell me more about what you mean about spiritual there, if you wouldn't mind.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Well, I'll say this to folks who listen to the show of yours and haven't been to Scotland. If you want to know what spiritual in golf feels like, go to St. Andrews.

unknown 25:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

I get goosebumps now when I think about that place because it evokes something that is indescribable. And we live in an era of information where people are trying to put values to everything. Okay? Where there's certain things you just can't put a value to. And to me, those are the spiritual elements of golf. Like if you're standing there, I don't know, let's let's call it the let's let's let's do the old course. If you're standing on the first T and you your nerves are rampant, I don't care how good you are.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Okay. And everyone's just looking down the fairway. If you just turn 360 and look around what's going uh over there, you will have a brush with a spiritual spirituality of golf. If if you go out there and you're on, I think it's Eden, maybe number 12, yeah, and you turn around and you look just just look and you see the town in the distance and all the steeples and the spires and stuff, it's spiritual. Yeah. Um and it evokes emotions inside too. So so that's the spirituality of golf. And to me, it's something I learned in college, where our golf coach was not a golf coach. He was just a he was the dean of students. He got the job because they didn't have a coach. But he understood the human psyche and he understood the student athlete. And he had a rule, he had various rules with us, but they were not rules, they were like more how to live life. And one of his rules were because you're carrying a bag around playing college golf, and it's easy to get into that posture where you're hunched over and you're looking at your feet when you're walking along the ground, walking along. And that evokes like I'm crouched, I'm defensive, I'm I'm in a negative sort of an attitude comportment, right? His rule was we were never allowed to look below our eye line when we were walking or when we when we were just sort of if you're looking at a line of a putt, certainly. But if you're green side, you had to look in the trees. Always had to look above your eye line. And it seemed trite to me initially, but when you do that, all of a sudden your system within goes, Oh my gosh. You're the birds over there. And that'll settle your system a little bit as opposed to worrying about the five footer you're about to be over. Or like when you go to St. Andrews, like I joke with people, I'm like bucket list cathedrals to play. Augusta National, you'd agree with me, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, of course. I'm like the very now, I'm completely off topic, but humor me because I'm a podcaster. All of the pace of play police that are telling you that the game's got to get faster will spend the happiest six hours of their life playing Augusta National, standing at every spot going, that's where Bubba hit the wedge from. That's where Jack Nicholas made the putt on 17. This is where Tiger hit the whatever it was. You walk to the top of the Fairway 11 and you look down over A-Man Corner and you're like, and you take a picture. You go stand on both the Hogan Bridges and the Nelson Bridges. So the same folks who tell you to go fast will go slowly there because they're in touch with the spirituality of it all. And I feel like when you do that, it calms the system. And when your system gets calmed, the chances of your tension being reduced are improved. Because to me, tension is the biggest wrecker of a golf swing in the history of mankind.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

Yeah. And I I think to add on what you're saying about tension, when I uh we'll talk about getting my best score again. Um when I was playing with Dave, I honestly I felt like I was in flow state since like it's been a couple of days. The way that I describe it, I'd never felt like that before because every shot that I was hitting, it was just commitment, and I was just in it was a beautiful sunny day, and I was just enjoying being outside with Dave, and we were talking, it wasn't like I was totally just all I was think thinking about was this score. I was in this total state of just enjoyment of gratitude, and I think that allowed me to play more freely and enjoy the game personally. Would you say, Dave?

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Oh, completely, absolutely, and I I I don't think people make the point you've made enough, Mark, about the spirituality of golf. And I know some people might not be that interested in words like that. I don't know, compare like whenever it's uh describing a game like golf, but I do really feel the same way. And I think that point that you're making, I had actually read that in one of Carl Morris's books, where it's like, look to the highest point that you can see, you know, look look look up as you as you walk. But I I never fully and I suppose I still don't fully grasp it, but I think what you're saying is is it it just gives you that change of perspective, even if whenever you first were told this, you weren't entirely convinced yourself.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

No, well, look, yes, because it seems so kind of hocus pocus. And it and especially nowadays, like maybe if you'd offered someone this 40 years ago, they'd be like, yeah, okay, fine. But now we've got data for everything, and we can ascribe a value to most things. Where this is one of those things where it's not a value, and the hum it's it's almost like human beings have become a little too smart for our own good. Yet in doing so, we've become intellectually lazy.

unknown 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

And and when it comes to golf, everybody knows. Like we've all had that moment to use it to use your term flow state, which is just another human name for a situation where you're playing with freedom. Okay. Or on the other side of the coin, playing without concern for results. And Bob Jones, again, my hero who I never met. Um I'll see him in heaven one day. He talked about, he said one day his coach Stuart Maiden said to him, You may as well hit the ball hard, it's gonna land somewhere.

unknown 31:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

And then I've heard Gary Player say to me, You've got to hit every shot like it's the last one you'll ever hit. Oh, I love that. And I heard that and I was I was like, okay, yeah, whatever. But then when I thought about it, it occurred to me that if I was hitting the shot like the last one I was ever gonna hit, I wouldn't just go through it higgledy-piggledy or like elter skelter. I I'd I'd make a practice swing or two, I'd have an idea of what I was trying to hit, and then for goodness sakes, I was not gonna bail out, I was just gonna hit this thing hard, you know, whether it worked out or not. And that's sort of the wisdom of ages where you listen to these things going, yeah, whatever. But if you honestly consider, because like I said again, like you could go and work on your swing till the cows came home. And then we take some unsuspecting golfer on the trip of his life, and he's on the west coast of Scotland, east coast of Scotland, and we take him to Mirrorfield, and you're overcome by the place, and the wind's blowing 40 miles an hour. Quite like that. All that golf swing work is done amounts to about that much then, right? And the real essence of the game comes back when it's like I gotta stick in a bowl and there's a hole down there somewhere, yeah, and I gotta get the thing in that hole as l with as little attempt as possible.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah, yeah. Your golf swing almost goes out the window in those situations.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Well, by the end of the day, it will have because you there's not like one standard shot that you hit. Yeah. So and that's why Colin Morris is a gift because he talks about these situations. He uses a term, I think it was spectacularly unsuccessful as a pro when he was trying to fix his golf swing all of the time.

SPEAKER_04 33:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Where when you're out there and you're playing golf, you hardly ever have a level likes unless you're on a T. And you've hardly ever got a good lie.

unknown 33:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

You know, people want to go and play Lynx golf, and they're like, my gosh, you never get good lies in the fairways around here. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. This is where you learn to manipulate this thing in your hand to create a result in a golf ball. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

No, I I was playing uh uh Renaissance Club uh two days ago, and it was uh 35 mile per hour winds with my my friend, and they had it so because that's coming up in the next couple weeks. I'll be there. Oh, you can be there for that. Yeah, on the call, yeah. I'll see you there because I'm gonna like I think Dave, are you coming as well?

SPEAKER_01 34:09

I'm gonna try and get out there over the weekend, yeah, yeah. We are fortunate, Mark. We're we're in Edinburgh, so we are not far from the Gulf Coast of Scotland. So we try and spend as much time as we possibly can down there. And what better way than to do that than the Scottish Open?

SPEAKER_02 34:25

And they had they had the all the stands up and all of the pins. I don't know if they were testing it out, all of the pins were tucked, the rough was to knee height, and it it just it felt like you were playing, you were in this, like I felt like I was a pro for the day, and I was like, oh like I made a birdie on the signature hole, I think it's the fourth that they have, they change the holes around to what the normal set to what the normal set is for the members, they change it uh, I think the tenth, which is normally the first, so it all goes around. Oh, okay. And it was just like just to go back to what you were saying about that spiritual connection, there's the the beauty there that when you look back down the fourth uh from the the members kind of halfway house, it on if you get the opportunity, go out there and just have a look back, and it is one of the most beautiful like like scenes that you'll see. You'll see Fedra, lighthouse, and it's just fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Four for us in the tournament is 13, I believe it is. It's the one with the with the cliffs on the left and the big hill on the right. Yeah, um, yeah, it it is, and they've got like every year. My encourse colleague Craig and I, we go there because at the top of the hill, behind three green, it's 12 for us, the part three, they've got that big visit Scotland or whatever it is, sign. Yeah. So we'll uh we we take the same picture every year, but it's like one of those things where something inside of you says, I've got to get this picture. Yeah. We've got like four or five copies of the thing, but but again, that's the spirituality of it until look upon this going, you know, this is Garford's truest form. Um it's sort of it's it's beautiful in a strange sort of a way. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

And shameless plug. Uh we've got a great short of Chris birdieing that hole, right? That we just put out on our Instagram, and it absolutely like it looks absolutely stunning.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Sounds to me like you're about to get a new sponsor of your podcast as well. We can keep going on like this.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

The Gulf Coast of Scotland. We are open to conversations at any point. Um yeah, so we've talked enough about Chris having his personal best round. You know, I'm still searching for breaking 80. Mark, I thought I was gonna do it last year. Chris was with me, and then I three put it on the 18th hole, but I still had a fantastic time. Okay. Um if you were gonna be my coach from tomorrow, like a kind of, I don't know, four-week program, what would you be putting me through? I'm a I'm a 14 handicapper. I I would offer it, Chris. I'm a I'm an improving 14 handicapper, is what I would say. Knocking on the door of breaking 80. Uh what what do you think is kind of essential, non-negotiable for someone like me to try and get to that level?

SPEAKER_00 37:25

I would go twofold. Um, they kind of go hand in glove a little bit, I guess. I I would rarely spend a whole lot of time on uneven lies, hitting shots from uneven lies. Because that to me, because again, if golf is a game of distance and direction, then the ability to strike the ball solidly off any sort of a lie lends itself to success, bearing that fundamental in mind. But when people practice on a range, most time you're just practicing off a flat surface. So so I I'd really get busy on uneven lies and hit them a lot so you can start to know kind of your isms. Because like the golf cliche goes, well, if you've got the ball above your feet, it's gonna turn left. And below your feet is gonna turn right. I'll show you with good golfers how that's not the case. Right. With a good golfer, it's kind of the other way around. Oh, really? I've heard that. Okay, okay. Well, well, with a good golfer and the ball below his or her feet, because you down and you're onto your toes a bit more, your ability to rotate through the shot is scuttled a little bit. So in the golf swing, there's a rule that says if something stops, something else has to accelerate. And if your body stops rotating, the toe of the club will accelerate over the heel, so the ball will turn left. Then if you've got the ball above your feet, it's way easier because you're hitting the thing sort of waist higher like this. Well, not that high, but as so you can turn easier, and so you lag the toe of the club. So the elite golfer will hit something that doesn't draw as much. Unless they let the club go, of course. Yeah. Um, so I would say uneven lies. And then, as I said, hand in glove here, the the key to golf too is knowing exactly what your carry distances are. Right. Now, sometimes that's a bit of a moot point in Scotland because the game sometimes gets played in the ground. But still, the ability to fly the ball to a certain number, a certain area, yardage, is a real skill. And it's brought to bear, like, think about this for argument's sakes, right? A lot of golfers, and I see this countless times, um, they'll come for lessons and you ask them the requisite questions and stuff. And then they always like bravado and they're like, well, I hit my eight iron like 155 yards and whatever. And I'm like, yeah, okay, whatever, is what I'm thinking. Because this eight iron might have gone like 150 in the air, but it's rolled out five. Okay. And that's their one career best shot where the rest of them, they're probably doing 145. Now, if you just if you've ever had a brush with a pot bunker, all right. The the key about pot bunkers, and I'm getting to my story here, okay. What for folks that don't know in the global audience, pot bunkers are small, but they have like a vortex that they suck balls into because everything works downhill to the pot bunker, right? So if there's a pot bunker at 145 yards away from you, if you want to make sure you leave it short, you've probably got to hit it about 130. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if there's and if you wanted to carry the bunker, you're probably gonna have to hit it like 150 in the air. Because if you're at the thing 145, thinking it's like 150 over the top, you're gonna be playing out the pot bunker and making a six or a seven in the blink of an eye. Right. So so I'm gonna say to you, uneven lies, know exactly how far you carry the golf ball.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

And just on that, definitely you would be focusing on carrying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Absolutely. Like, like if if I I'll show you countless shots that were dead online, that were yards short and they're in a penalty area or hazard or something, or pot bunker. Yeah, yeah. That's what the pros do, and the pros also, they their caddies do it. When you go to the Scottish Open, watch them. The caddies are always a shot ahead when you're watching them on the a day ahead when you watch them on the greens, because they'll get the ball, clean it off. Then you'll see them walking around the green, finding the next day's whole location, and they're pacing that off. They'll have a hole location sheet, but they'll go, well, that backright flag there, there's actually only four yards behind it. So if you hit the thing, it's over the back. You get it? So they're getting really precise numbers. And then every shot the pro hits, the caddy in the yardage book will go, he'll write down the number that was the sprinkler head. Let's call it 150. And let's say they five off that. So they had one four minus five for 145. That's the real number. Then he'll write down a wind direction in off the ride hurting. Then they'll write the club down. Then the shot will get hit. And if the shot was hit solid, you'll see the caddy walk on the green and find the ball mark and pace off the differential between where it landed in relation to the flag. So they might have had 145 flag, but into the wind the ball only went 143. It's still on the green, and your club golfer goes, You will see, I hit my eight-iron 145. The thing only went 143. So it's like real-time data they're keeping because remember, we play in an unpredictable medium. Shucks, you guys in Scotland more so than most. And you've seen it, we'll have four seasons in a day where at one stage your eight-iron's going 120, and the next stage, warm in the afternoon, it's going 160 because the ball's flying and the ground's running. Yeah. So so I I think precise carry numbers, uneven lies, you I I think people get on there will be well on their way if they get that stuff figured out.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Yeah, and just on just very, very quickly on the uneven lies. Would you kind of suggest on that point, Mark, that maybe someone at my level just needs to play more golf, play more rather than range practice more good question.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

I should have my wife on for the show because I we have a daughter who's a good golfer.

SPEAKER_04 43:24

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

And Tracy, my wife's criticism, and Tracy incidentally is a Scottish father. Right. Uh-huh. Or her late father, Tommy. Whose brother was the assistant pro at Achteloni's Pro Shop in St. Andrews, just for the record. Wow. Okay. Um so her dad played at Dundee United football. Oh, right. Yeah. Um Tracy will say, Isabel Izzy, our daughter has to play more. And I'm like, yeah, I agree with you. But there's one or two things she needs to iron out. And that was the teacher within. And that teacher within was trying to make sure that she was equipped for every scenario. But the truth of the matter is, like the other day I played golf with her and I didn't say a word. And for the record, that was freaking hard.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Like even for me who's not a coach, like I play with my son and I'm like really having to bite my tongue and not say stuff.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Well, I watched her, Dave. I watched her beginning to employ that golf IQ stuff that you need to play well. I saw her figuring out the problem. And the truth is a donkey is only going to bump its head once. You know, if she keeps on making the same mistake, I might say something now. But Tracy was right. So I guess long-winded to say, yeah, getting out and playing a lot is a good idea. If you have the luxury of when you've hit a shot and it hasn't worked out, if you have the luxury of trying it again, that's helpful. Yes. Or if you just, or when you go and play, go, you know, this is, and not just the shot, the scenario. Ball above my feet, wind over my left shoulder, tight lie. Then go and try and find a place where you can recreate that a little bit. People just think of the yardage, right? There's more to the there's what where the wind is, what the lie's like, all the sorts of things that are going on. Gov to me, more failures happen because of circumstance than with the swing failure. And everyone has their kryptonite. Like, and we'll figure I'll figure that out quickly watching elites play. There's just certain shots or certain wind direction where you can see they're just not comfortable. Yeah. And so if you can do that, that's the best way to go about it.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

And that is a great feedback loop, if you like, uh where say you make several. Mistakes on your round, and then you go back to the scene of the crime and you you recreate that. Like I've often I I think I've seen you doing this, Chris. Any good players that I play with, if it's just a bounce game that we would call it over here, that if it's just a game that doesn't matter, it's not on the card, it's not uh in a competition. I often see good players, if they hit a bad shot, which occasionally they will do, uh, then just dropping another ball down and just just going for that again, yeah, just to try and and try and kind of close that feedback loop and learn and learn from that mistake really quickly. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

And then when we spoke to shameless name drop here, but we got to meet uh Andy Murray, and he's gone from a seven handicap down to a one handicap in nine months, and we'd asked what's the one thing that you want to get better at, and he said it's basically assessing the ball quicker, like as he's walking up to it. And I think that's where the difference is between Dave and I is I can as I'm walking up to the ball, I'm like, okay, it's in the rough, it'll come out. There's like the roughs between the ball and club face, so it can come out quite hot, it's up, it's uphill. There's a windened face drop five yards off. And I've found that like with the mid-handicapper, that isn't immediate yet. And that's what Andy Murray said. He was like, it's just not immediate in his head. Whereas I'm finding I have played since I was six, so I don't know. Is it because I started playing golf at six and learned these things really quickly? And Dave started in your mid-30s, Dave, would you say? So ha ha ha.

SPEAKER_03 47:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Sort of, or try and I think I played proper. Is that a year ago, basically?

SPEAKER_01 47:36

No, because my friends will laugh if I try and claim that I started recently. Um so I did, I would say that I started playing proper golf just around COVID, like a lot of people, uh, because golf was the only thing you could do. And I'd always liked golf a lot, but that was whenever I would say that I fully properly committed to like trying to play regular golf. So I've played weekly proper golf, as I would describe it, since then. However, I had played like golf over the years since I was like a kind of maybe a teenager, maybe 13, 14, but like not a lot, kind of maybe a five, eighteen whole round a year kind of guy. So it's very difficult to get good at golf or get reasonable golf if that's all you're playing.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

Well, the the the sorry, the anti the Andy Murray thing is is so astute. Well, look, let's be honest, I mean, the guy's gifted, he's a he's an athlete. Um, but but but that is the thing, and and I will add to that because like anyone watching your podcast or anyone listening and watching mine, they're aspirants, so they they're coming to listen because they want to improve. Yeah, and so if you have this growth, if one has this growth mindset, oftentimes we can discount what we really know because you think that there's something more to learn. And when I was teaching full time on the European tour and stuff like that, I knew deep down I was a good teacher, but I still believe this there was something I was missing. Until yeah, recently, after I've talked to everyone on my show, I'm like, gosh, what I knew was absolutely actually correct. So so so I I do want to add that to your point, Chris, where yeah, it's assessing the shots. Because most golfers they just go up there, they laser the hole and they hit a shot. It's kind of autopilot golf to me. Where if you listen to an elite golfer, they're looking at the lie, how they're feeling, how far the ball's carrying, where the wind is. It's it's it's like every shot is an event unto itself. And that and and and that that to me is like a big separator between a really good golfer and and and a not so good golfer to me.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

And I think from my perspective, playing with someone like Chris regularly, we're also good pals with the head pro at Murray Field where we play in Edinburgh. Uh, and you know, he's always really generous with his advice to both of us. But I think being around good players can really help build that golf IQ and build that experience that we're talking about. I think I certainly benefit a lot from that. I think if I'm just playing with other guys who are mid-handicap or higher, nobody's giving me those kind of insights, you know, and so you can just be flying blind so often, I think.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Yeah, yeah, I I I I this is a personal beef I have with junior golf in the United States, and I've guess I've got just enough of a voice to be listened to, but I also need to be a little careful at times because I'm critical of junior golf year, where you've got these five and six and seven-year-olds playing in these mini golf tournaments, and they're out there by themselves, no idea what's going on, and no one's helping them. And I'm looking at the parents going, Do you think this is helping your child? Each group should have someone going along saying, Hey, over there, just consider this. Yeah, the best player is still gonna get the trophy at the end of it, I promise you. Um, so so anyway, that's just a personal beef. I'll I'll I'll stop.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

I did find that growing up I found that growing up when I was playing from a really young age, it was it felt like life and death when I was on that course at that age, and like the amount of kids that I played in like these competitions with that were like throwing clubs, crying at the side of the green, and you like then you go into that kind of golf just felt like a chore. And when we spoke to Dr. Roman Pryor, he was saying that like most kids' golfing, like kind of career is finished or sporting career is finished in the drive home with the parent, and that was just like amazing to hear.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Yeah, well, like yes, and and and this is under the guise of growing the game, right? This is what all of the the pundits are like we've got to grow the game. I'm like, have you seen your child out there? They're hating the thing. Um, and like I I was the one that had to catch myself because when I'm watching Izzy play golf, or anyone that I've taught, but especially my daughter or my brother, who I taught for a while, um, the debrief comes quickly, where it shouldn't. You know, it's after the round of golf, all of us adults we go inside for a beer, right? But your kid who just had the worst time ever, you're like, what's going on? Why did you do that? It's it's hellacious, man. And and I stand so accountable there. So you've tickled my sensibilities and my uh the issues I have within. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Yeah, no, and and uh that was one thing I wanted to ask you about, Mark, because you know, I know your daughter is a really good golfer. Uh am I right in saying it?

SPEAKER_00 52:41

So is he is she knocking on the door of college golf or she's she's No, she's at the University of Alabama. Um in her first year they have a thing in the United States where it's called red shirting, where basically if you knew and she's young for college, um you sit a year in residence, so you just practice under the coach's tutelage council, and then you've got four years of competition left. So now going back to school in August this year, she will be uh ready to go, we hope.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Wow, nice. And to I know I've I've kind of quoted you a few times, but I will again. I think you've described her swing as a swing that fell out of heaven. I love I love that. Uh my son, just on that point, so my son Lachlan, uh, he is really into golf, he's 12 now. Uh, you know, Chris, back me up here. I feel like he's got a very nice looking swing. Yeah. Uh, you know, however, I think to the point that we're making, he he is at the moment getting really upset, and I think his expectations are just way out of line with reality. Just want to get your take on like how did you manage like Izzy, someone like Izzy to help her kind of start to realize the potential she's showing?

SPEAKER_00 54:04

That is a fantastic question. And I'll start it my answer with saying I read the right actor as a player, and incidentally my brother kind of did the same with his son Jacob, where we're like, you need to realize how hard this game is. Okay. And coming from Trevor, who's the masters champion, it came a lot of thrust. He was pretty good. Yeah, so uh so I I would say to Izzy, I'm like, you have no right to lose your temper because golf is hard and you really haven't worked very hard at it. So the offshoot of that was the fact that she doesn't show any emotion whatsoever, almost to a point where she pulls off a fantastic shot. There's no fist pumping or anything, which is again a mistake on my behalf. Because I want to see emotions, I just don't want to see them redlining either way. Okay. Because remember, we are holistic about our approach here. So here of late, my message to her is just preaching all the time that golf is a game of recovery. And as Rotella said, it's not a game of perfect. And when that final, when that penny finally drops, then the golfer starts to learn, well, I don't have to hit the ball perfectly to make a good score. And when I get good at recovering, shot number three, my score will still be decent despite me not hitting the ball on the button every single time.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

That was part one of our conversation with Mark Immelman. Mark's just been talking about the spiritual side of golf, and funnily enough, after we recorded these episodes, we actually ended up spending a day with Mark during Scottish Open Week. He was over with CBS, and we played golf at Gullen and at North Derrick on Scotland's phenomenal Golf Coast with that beautiful little par three finishing it all off at North Derrick, looking out towards Bastrock. One of the things Chris and I have loved most about doing this podcast is that sometimes these conversations become real friendships. And what started out here as a podcast interview, then turned into some unforgettable moments on the golf course. And we're actually going to try and bring you some of those in part two next week, including a few behind-the-scenes clips from our time with Mark that I think you will really enjoy. Once again, if you've enjoyed today's episode, we'd really appreciate it if you followed the podcast wherever you're listening. And if you fancy it, please leave us a review. It really does help us continue bringing conversations like this to more golfers like Chris and I who want to get better at golf. You can also find a lot of different clips and footage from our time with Mark over on our Instagram, including some absolute pearls of wisdom that have already made a huge difference to our games are getting a great reaction online from our audience. And if today's conversation left you wanting more, I strongly recommend you go ahead and check out Mark's brilliant podcast on the mark. Mark very kindly gave us some truly lovely shout-outs on this week's podcast. And it's one of the best golf podcasts anywhere for anybody who wants to get better at golf. We couldn't recommend it more highly. So thank you again, Mark Immelman. We are truly blessed. And thank you to everyone listening. We will see you next time on How Low Can You Go.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

How low can you go?