The Golf Lesson You Probably DON'T Want to Hear | Jim Waldron (Part 2)

AN ANCIENT RITE OF PASSAGE… APPLIED TO GOLF. YES, REALLY. JIM WALDRON EXPLAINS. 

Welcome back to How Low Can You Go?

This is Part Two of our conversation with Jim Waldron — and this one gets even more interesting.

We're talking about why you probably shouldn't be looking at the golf ball when you hit it, why trying to control your release can actually make it worse, balance, the Bobby Jones drill… and how to deal with the fear of bad outcomes.

And then Jim wants to send Chris and I on an ancient rite of passage… applied to golf, obviously.

There’s some brilliant stuff in this one — and, as ever with Jim, quite a few things that made us stop and think:

“Hang on… is that actually right?”

Jim takes us into some fascinating territory around fear, awareness, attention, instinctive golf and what really gets in the way of performing on the course.

If you've ever stood over a shot thinking “don't hit it left”, “don't chunk this” or “whatever you do, don't three-putt”, this conversation could make you look at those moments very differently.

🎧 If you haven't listened to Part One yet, start there — then come straight back for this one.

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After loving our conversations with Karl Morris so much, we thought: wouldn't it be great to spend two days actually learning from someone like this?

Karl has worked with multiple Major-winning clients, including 2026 Open Champion Ryan Fox, and we're putting together an immersive experience combining mental performance, golf, great facilities and a live HLCYG recording.

It's going to be premium, intimate and limited in numbers.

If you'd like first access when booking opens, join the priority list now:

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🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW

How Low Can You Go explores how amateur golfers can improve their game, lower their scores, and actually understand what moves the needle — without wasting time on the wrong things.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Okay, before we get into today's episode, I want to tell you about something Chris and I are really, really excited about. We have loved our recent conversations with Carl Morris, performance coach, to multiple major winners, including this year's open champion, Ryan Fox. And we've enjoyed that so much that we've been thinking, wouldn't it be great to actually spend a couple of days learning from someone like Carl? Well, we are now exploring exactly that. We're looking at bringing together around 30 golfers for two days of premium golf improvement at the wonderful Cameron House on Loch Lomond in Scotland with Carl Morris, Chris, and myself. We'll have Carl's mental performance expertise, great practice facilities, and we'll be able to play the Carrick Championship course on Loch Lomond. If that sounds like something you'd love to be a part of, then just click the link in the show notes and register your interest. There is absolutely no commitment at this stage. We are simply trying to understand demand and see if we can make this happen. And we would love your help to do exactly that. So if you'd like to spend two days in the company of Carl Morris, Chris, and myself obsessing about getting better at golf, then click in the show notes below and let us know that you're interested. Hopefully, come the end of October, we'll be spending a couple of pretty special days together at Cameron House. Okay, let's get into today's show. Welcome back to Hilo Can You Go, the golf improvement podcast, born in Scotland. This is part two of our conversation with Jim Waldron. And this gets mind-blowing, eye-opening, you name it. And in my view, this is also really really funny. To use an expression from Northern Ireland, where I grew up, Jim Waldron is very, very good crack. We're talking about why you probably shouldn't be looking at the golf ball when you hit it. That's right. You heard. Why trying to control your release can actually make it worse. We're talking balance and the Bobby Jones drill that multiple PGA teaching professionals have said is the most effective drill any golfer can do. Jim also wants to send Chris and I on an ancient rite of passage. Applied to golf and improvement, obviously. So, some brilliant stuff in this one, and as ever with Jim Waldron, quite a few things that made us stop and think, hold on. Did he just say what we think he just said? Anyway, let's get into it. This is Jim Waldron. This is Hilo Can You Go.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

How low can you go? And and just talking about the that dreaded word yips.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Can everyone mind their language, please?

SPEAKER_02 3:42

I just want to tap into that briefly because what I found is I did have the Yips last season, which stopped me. I used to be an amazing uh chipper, and I was just like, it was more that kind of creative side for me. I just loved doing it. Got the yips, couldn't get rid of them, but then we spoke to uh Chase Cooper, who's a coach uh out of Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I worked with Chase years ago, about 10 years ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

And he and he's uh basically told me to go. I was coming, he'd seen a video of my chipping, and I was coming way too much on the inside, so it meant that I was getting stuck coming back through. So he wanted me to just exaggerate going out more, like so I wouldn't get stuck. And since doing that, and I've messaged him and thanked him so much. But just talking about the visual side of it, um, for me, I've now found changing my low point with chipping, I'm almost like looking after the ball. Like instead of looking at the ball. Yeah, target side of the ball. What's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Well, I teach that to everybody. Um well, if I'm working with a really good player who focuses their foveal or narrow focused vision on the ball and they're good, I don't change it. But that's and that's like 1% of my students. I've been teaching forever what we call the aim point, which is where you focus your eye gaze. There's the the evidence is overwhelming. You should never focus on the ball directly, and you should focus your eye gaze on a spot on the ground, typically on the target line, but it could be outside the target line or inside to help fix your path. Like, for example, if your path is over the top, out in, and you make the where you look that spot on the ground, say two inches outside, generally that fixes your path, like right away. Sorry to jump, sorry to jump in here. Did you just say you should never ever focus on the ball? Is that you? Yeah, there's no there's no reason to focus on the ball because it's not a hand-eye coordination sport like people think it is. It's a it's a body coordination sport, but it's not hand-eye. In fact, relying on hand eye is one of the more common reasons why someone gets the yips in the first place. Right? If the ball was moved if the ball had a gyroscope embedded in the center of the ball where it would at a random way, the ball would move around, say like in an eight-inch diameter circle, you'd have to use what's called in in in uh kinesiology or biomechanics, uh dynamic hand eye. The way the way the way you hit a baseball, right? Okay. When you see the ball leave the pitch, you make it you make an educated guess and you swing at a at an object that's in motion. In golf, the ball doesn't move. So you should be able to hit the ball, and I can almost as well with your eyes closed as your eyes open. If you're if your physical skills are good, you don't need any hand-eye to hit the ball well. Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 6:25

So yeah, this has blown my mind. Mind too. Because I've I've never I've never heard like obviously that you don't look at the ball. Like, that's why with my chip and I'm looking target side, and I find it helps.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

But I have my chipping students look about three inches, three or four inches in front when they have when they have chipping yips, that's where they look. Where they can still kind of see the ball on the right edge of their peripheral vision, but it's fuzzy. Bobby Jones actually had a turn, Bobby Jones had the yips early in his career, uh, full swing yips, and he figured out that when he looked at the ball directly with foveal vision, which means clear, narrow vision on one object, he hit he it triggered the yip. And when he defocused his eye gaze to where the where the white ball became, he said it looks like a fuzzy white ball of cotton, kind of typical for him being from the south. Uh it stopped the yip from happening. So, yeah, what when people have yips, they're almost inevitably focusing way too much on the ball to the point where they have a common misperception that the ball is the target in golf, which it's not. The target's out there in the distance. The ball is not the target, not even a little bit, right?

unknown 7:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

To play your best golf, you gotta be in the same mindset you're in on a practice wing when there's no ball there. You can't be reacting to the ball mentally, emotionally, physically in any way. You gotta swing like there's no ball there when there is a ball there.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

And and do you think that's why, and this is from my own experience, I think. Like I was a terrible golfer. Um, I'm I'm not a great golfer, but I'm a lot better than I was. But I think that whole concept you just talked about where the ball becomes the target. Do you think that's why a lot of people, this was me, like get a really major kind of casting over-the-top move. Like that's what I was doing, where I was just throwing the club, throwing the club at the ball because the ball became the target, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:19

100%. Well that in fact, there's other there's there's several causes for over the top, but there's there's three primary ways, which I'll demo. So if you get up here and you throw the club at, now the ball obviously is there. We call that the northerly direction, the target's west, that's east, that's south behind me. People see the ball there, they go like that. They throw the club head from high handicappers directly north toward the ball, right? Or they do it with their arm, their arm goes like this toward the ball, or their right shoulder goes toward the ball. Yeah. It should be going like this. Guilty. But think of it like this. The first half of the downswing, the club head is moving not only not toward the ball, it's not even moving toward the target, it's moving that way, since I'm demonstrating for you guys. The club head's moving that way, it's moving down and toward the east, and it should. And it keeps moving toward the east and down all the way to here. It doesn't start moving toward the direction of northwest, toward the ball/slash target, until so-called position six, where your hands are hip height and the club shaft is parallel to the ground. Now it starts to move toward the ball. So think about how crazy it is to move the club toward the ball from anywhere between up here to down here. It's literally moving in the wrong spatial direction. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

It's extremely interesting, Jim. And also the fact that you just said that we shouldn't look at the ball when we're playing golf shots. Because like 99.9 or more percent of all golfers out there are doing that. So are you saying to us that if all of us listening, Chris and I included, and we went out tomorrow and we played and we didn't look at the ball, we just looked at something in front of the ball. On I guess I guess on the target line that we where we want the ball to start, we would play better golf.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

100%. Unless you were a total beginner. What I don't get that many beginners, I get like one or two a year. But when I do get a beginner, I explain this. That's this is literally the first lesson. I say, look, I know you think the ball's the target. It ain't the target. Like if you were shooting a basketball, instead of looking at the at the rim, you look at the ball. Or if you were shooting an arrow, instead of you would look away from the target and look at the arrow. We have to have a ball to play the game, but the but the ball is not the point of the game. The target's the point. Yeah. So for beginners, I said I tell them, you got 90 days, you could I want you to look at the back of the ball, pick a dimple on the very back of the ball, and use eye coordination to try to drive the center of the club face. Okay. Try to hit that dimple with the center of the club face for 90 days. Then I say, then I then you have to stop looking at the ball, look at a spot on the target line a couple of inches in front of the ball, and stop using hand eye. In other words, you have to you need crutches because you're crippled for the first 90 days. But after 90 days, you're not going to be crippled anymore. You've got to drop the crutches and learn to F and walk.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

That's right. But just on just on that as well, because I think this is really crucial, and just checking that I understand this. If we're looking, if we're kind of looking at a spot ahead of the ball, target side, right? So we're looking at a spot that's in front of the ball. We're not then just trying to turn that into the target. We're not suddenly then acting like that's the ball. We're we're trying to sort of swing the ball through so that it goes through that target.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. We're trying we're trying to let the club head touch the ground around that spot you're looking at. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

On its journey to the finish. In other words, if you wanted to pick the the end of the golf swing is an impact, which is, by the way, it's very common for mid to high handicaps, even from low handicap students, to think that the purpose of the downswing is to arrive at a proper impact condition. Now, from a purely scientific perspective, of course, if you don't arrive at a proper impact condition, which has a geometric aspect, which are the so-called impact alignments, you know, like square club face more or less square to the path, a neutral path, proper low point, proper angle attack, but also clubhead speed. That's the physics part. Yeah, of course, from a scientist, if you were a scientist designing a ball-striking robot, you would start with what the impact conditions are. But first of all, we're not robots, we're human beings. The end of the swing is an imp is not impact. The end of the swing is a proper finish. All the top teachers I know who work with beginners at high handicap, thinking of a close friend of mine, a former head pro where I taught for 32 years, he starts with finish. The very first thing he teaches beginners is not impact. He teaches them to finish. Because if you're finishing properly, your odds of having a proper impact condition go way up automatically.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

I'm going to put you out there, Dave. We have had conversations where Dave's swing mannerisms at the end are were really bad. Because we we we had a friend that actually, who's a like a plus four handicapper, that had messaged us on our socials just being like, what are Dave's swing mannerisms all about? And then we and but that just ties in perfectly to like what you were saying about that pro that would teach the finish first.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Because it's so important. And in fairness, he had been complimentary about my game. We played with him and he actually thought that I played quite well. But sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Um sorry, what were you saying, Chris, about uh the I was just saying that your swing mannerisms were um a little bit off.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

So you say you mean his how he how was how his body was at and club were at the finish? Is that what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah, kind of like after impact and then through, it was like I don't know, I don't know the best way, like a giraffe kind of a baby giraffe.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah, we're most of these guys are Scottish, Jim, but it sounds a very British way of describing a finish in a golf swing, the mannerisms.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Yeah, the mannerisms, yeah, I get it. Yeah, that does sound kind of British. You know, there was a great book. I've often I often bring this book up with mid to high handicapped students. There's a great teacher, he's won multiple golf magazine top 100 teacher awards, a guy named from Alabama named Hank Johnson. It's somewhere up on that bookshelf back there. I think I have it. But it's called the ABC Golf Swing. It came out, I think, in 1980, early 80s. And I think it's one of the best books ever written for mid to high handicaps, especially for beginners. Because his argument is look, if you you you only need to know three things to be decent or Carl's term good enough at ball striking, which are a proper starting position at setup, a proper top of back position, back of top of backswing position, and a proper finish position. He said is connect the dots. You connect dot A, which is setup, to B, which is top of backswing, to C, which is finish. And don't worry about what the club's doing or what your body parts are doing in the inner in the intervals in between those three static positions, right? I don't do a lot with high handicaps for beginners. I generally get a lot of really good players and people in the sort of like 12 handicap range or lower. But when I do get a high a high handicap, that's what that's what I I use the ABC idea. It's very useful, very helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah. And uh back to Chris. So the recommendation that he develops this kind of more sawn off Tommy Fleet. I've done it before. Compact swing. That was what I was gonna ask, is because Chris has the ability to do this and he was able to demonstrate this, and he used to do this. So would he, in your opinion, Jim, need to go away in the off-season and work on that? Or do you think that's something that he could implement mid-season while we're trying to get out there and score?

SPEAKER_00 15:57

It it would depend on, I'd have to know what was in Mark's head, why Mark Imam would recommend it, but I kind of have a basic idea. There's something that has to do with the release. In fact, I just did a lesson on this with a longtime student of mine yesterday. Uh when when people release the club, when they release the wrist angles early, uh, there's often because they're releasing the wrist angles early, there's a if there's a stalling of the pivot. So the pivot should be speeding up, and instead of speeding up, it slows down. And so they arrive at impact with not with not enough forward shafling. So they might have like, you know, the the clap the shaft might be 90 degrees to the ground, or it could even be angling backward, reverse shaftling, which is bad. So one way you can get a better release, a later release in time, and more forward shaffling, therefore, lower trajectory, more compression, better divot, better low point control, is to basically practice punch shots. So in a punch shot, you do a half to three quarter backswing with only half a wrist cock instead of a full wrist cock. And you did that, you do that sawed off finish kind of naturally, kind of instinctively. You don't you don't finish normally on a punch shot. And on a punch shot, you have tons of forward shafting. So probably that's what Mark was going for.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Yeah? Yeah. Because that's I I do think as well. My hands sometimes like see when you say there's that like that stall, my hands do sometimes whip. Like I have found my hands like get out in front of me and that they just turn so quickly. Yeah. Um, and I think he'd seen that when we had played, and that's when he said it. And I, as I said before, I used to play this fade, and then over like time it was becoming like a straighter draw. And then I went into the pros and they'd basically said, Well, why don't you stop trying to fight the fade, uh, the draw? Sorry, and just play it. And I have played it, but always is that kind of you're playing good, there's it's a draw, it's a nice draw, then it all of a sudden turns a little bit into that pull hook, but you aim a little bit right, and then before you know it, you're just that's the other reason he might because that that type of of that type of sawed-off finish is a low-cut type of shot shape.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah. It's it's impossible to hit a high draw with that Tommy Fleetwood finish.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Yeah, and he says I was I play such a high ball as well that he was seeing it a lot where it's like very high and it's going. It is like proper going for it.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah. So I recommend that to students all the time to try to duplicate Tommy Fleetwood's finish. And instantly they hit the ball lower. They tend to start to hit it eat straighter or maybe even cut it a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Yeah. And I've always liked that's where I feel like I've played my most safest golf was playing with that fade because I could control it so well. And there was obviously like more backspin than forward spins.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It holds the greens better for the compared to a baby draw. Now, the downside is I teach almost everybody who, unless they're already very good and very long, I teach pretty much 95% of my amateur students a baby draw pattern. And the main reason why is especially today's game, distance is such a scoring advantage. If you can hit it one club shorter in the green, because your iron distances are going longer and your your driver distance is going longer. And otherwise, anything you can do to add distance is going to tend to produce a lower score. And draws go further in the air than fades, and they go further on ground than fades by a huge amount, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah. That's what I was finding and when I was speaking to the pros. They'd said they'd showed me the numbers and said that like I was gaining way more distance on my draw than the fades. If that makes sense. So that's why they had said what you've exactly said is that.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Because there's less backspin. A draw has less backspin than a fade. That's the main reason. It goes further in the air and it goes further, it rolls out further. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Yeah. Got you. No, that's good to know.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

But back to the point that Dave made earlier. So yeah, I mean, when you when when you stop thinking of the ball as the target, you don't need to look at it. Now, I'm not saying you're not going to see it. You know, there's this thing called peripheral vision, right? So you're going to see the the ball in the right edge of your peripheral vision. But that's a good thing. Because that means you're no longer seeing the ball. We're not going to see something as a target if it's fuzzy. The whole visual orientation of the brain is if you if you think of something of an object of attention as something that you're going to have you're going to try to do something to.

unknown 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

You're going to look at it with your foveal, your narrow, narrow vision, not your peripheral vision. Yes. And you wouldn't say do that with putting. Everything. There's no advantage to looking at the ball whatsoever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

What about driving then? What about driving if you're hitting up on it? Like would you have to do that?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

I'll give you an example. Two summers ago, somewhere I someone sent me a link. There was an interview with Rory McElroy's caddy talking about this very issue, and he said, Rory never looks at the ball. He goes, Do you believe, would you believe this on a driver? Rory picks a spot on the target line 10 inches in front of the ball. Ten inches.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Right, okay. So with driver as well, and from the ball. No, yeah, everything.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

I know that we were shocked. We're still we'll st we're still trying to get over this, Jim, but I I do really like it, you know. Jim Waldrin said on our podcast that we should never look at the ball at all. You don't need to pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

There's no reason to. Again, I mean again, and this is why I want you guys to hit balls with try try hitting a chip, just a chip shot or even just a putt with your eyes closed first. Get used to it. Because it does take, you know, it takes a half hour or so to be over the initial discomfort that you're actually hitting a golf shot with your eyes closed.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

But you'll find that when your eyes are closed, for one thing, you stop using your external visual because your eyes are closed. And hopefully you'll you'll shift from internal visual, because what people do when they first start trying to hit a chip shot with their eyes closed, they start to imagine, they hallucinate an imaginary golf ball that they think is down there that somehow is going to get in the way of their sweeping clubhead path, meaning they're still using hand eye. But eventually. They can give up if I say, I want you to focus on the sensations coming from the bottom of your left foot when you're doing this chip shot with their eyes closed. They give up trying to find the ball. We call it fishing, fishing for the ball with the club face. They give up that. And all of a sudden they start hitting these really pure chip shots with the low point about a half inch in front, like it should be, you know, like hitting down on like a 10-degree angle attack. Really good chip shots over and over again with their eyes closed. And it's just it just blows their minds, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Yeah, this is blowing my mind training. Absolutely. And yeah, I I actually, my thinking on this, and I wonder, can you validate this, Jim, is based on the moves that I had been making, based on what Mark Immelman showed me and what I described earlier, with with the feet together, um, much more balanced, and that was really helping me release the club head in in a much more effective way. I get the sense that if I'm not looking at the ball and the ball being the target and something else is my focus ahead of the ball, I get the feeling that that could and should help that movement even more, feeling that proper release, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because again, you don't want there's there's something in my system I call release orientation. There's a apropos story about this, could considering the topic we're discussing. I c this came up on a podcast a long time ago, and we were talking about how the ball's not the target, just like you and you guys and I are talking about now. And I said, I I use the term release orientation. He says, What are you talking about? I go, It's in the mind of the golfer during during the release segment, they're trying to do something to the ball with the club head. Or they're trying to do something with the club just in relationship to the ground or in relationship to something that happens post-impact. He said, Well, what's the ideal release orientation? I said, Well, it's kind of a radical concept. I'm not sure you and your listeners are ready to hear this, but uh but but this is what I believe. I said, the ideal release orientation is not to have one in the first place. Don't fo if if in other words, if you just swing freely in the proper athletic mindset, you're not gonna be trying to do anything to the ball with the club ed at all. You're just gonna you're just gonna make a dynamic, powerful athletic motion that that ends with you at a proper finish position.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

So I said, so it's uh it's it's when I work on what we call decontamination drills, getting people to get out of practice mindset out of using hand-eye coordination, also known as steering impulse, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

And in my system, there's there's four destructive impulses that all start with the premise, the false premise that the ball's the target, which are hit impulse, which is wrong understanding of what makes a ball go far. There's about a dozen different ways you can have hit impulse. By the way, Dave, including yours, when you lunge like that, that's called mass transfer hit impulse. That's that's like if you're if you're playing American football and you're you're uh a tackle or your guard and your job is to sack the quarterback, you're gonna use your body weight to lunge and knock the quarterback. There's no mass transfer in golf. The ball stays on the club face in a long game shot for only one half of one thousandth of a second. But a lot of amateur golfers don't know that. So so when they when they should be stable with their with their spine staying stable during the release like that, they're sliding ahead of it. Right? So that's hit impulse. Steering impulse is wrong understanding, what makes the ball go straight. And when people have steering impulse, they try to keep the club face square a long time to the path, just before during even impact. What most amateurs don't understand is the club face has to rotate, not to hit a draw or a hook, just to hit a straight ball. The club face has to be moved, the toe has to be moving at a faster RPM speed and any golf shot that goes roughly 75 yards or longer in the air, the toe has to move faster than the heel just before impact. Because the ball was pushing back the way the way a bullet pushes back, when the gas leaves the when a bullet's fired from a gun, the combustion gases push back on the stock of the rifle against your shoulder with the same amount of force that the bullet's going through the barrel forward toward the target. That's Newton's third law of motion, equal and opposite reaction forces. That happens in impact between a club face and a ball. So we don't want to keep the club face squared during the strike. It has to be rotating slightly close just before impact and during impact. Otherwise, the ball's gonna push the face open by the time it leaves, it'll knock the face open by several degrees. You'll hit a push slice all day long. Yeah? Yeah. So that's called that's one version of steering impulse. The other is people think that the club head should move in a straight line, say 10 inches behind the ball, impact, and then 10 inches down the target line on a straight line post-impact. Of course, there's a little bit of that on very, very short putts of around five feet or less. The club head doesn't make an arc, it moves in a straight line, very short putts. Every other golf shot doesn't move in a straight line, it makes an elliptical shape arc. So right after impact, the club head arcs to the inside. It should arc. It doesn't make a straight line path, right? The third is scooping impulse. When people are ball bound, they look down, it's particularly on a wedge, that it looks like an F and shovel, and they're trying to, they're trying to add loft. They're trying to hit up on it. That's scooping impulse, right? And then the fourth is helping out during release, which is back to my original point. If you try to make the release better, you're gonna make it worse. You can't be trying to do anything mentally, emotionally, or physically to make your release better. Anything you do to try to make it better is gonna actually make it worse. Yeah. To the point where, again, you could end up with full swing yips or chipping yips or putting hips, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Back to the release orientation. So he said, Well, what's the next best thing? If you if you work in a habit, you're just gonna swing freely like you do in a practice swing when there's no ball there. What's the next best? I said, Well, the next best is to know what a proper finish is. Have the end of the release be the finish. He said, Okay, what's the next best one after that? I said, Well, that's that's follow-through, which is when your hands are about waist high on the left side of your body. He goes, What's the next one after that? I go, the next one is position eight, which is when the club bed's 18 inches post-impact, or your wrists are fully on cocked down. He goes, Well, what's the next one after that? Well, I go, well, the next one's impact. He goes, and again, he goes, again, why am I not supposed to focus on impact? I go, because if you focus on impact, you're gonna trigger those four impulses. Or if you have a tendency to flinch or yip, you're gonna trigger the flinch or the yip. People who yip are always focusing on impact.

unknown 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Sorry, that to this is like blowing my mind, uh, just all these kind of like everything structured, and how you said, um, with the like not thinking about the release and obviously not focusing on the ball. That's like the to the later part of this conversation that I'm like just focusing on and taking away that are just blowing my mind.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Um I I I I would offer as well that the drill I was doing with my feet together that was really just helping me stay in a better position and be more balanced. By virtue of that, that was giving me a better release. And we were you were there, Chris. We were on the course. Nobody was saying to me, okay, and release it like this and turn your hands like that, and then move your arms like that. He he was just saying, feet together, swing, swing, hold the finish, swing, swing, there you go. And then I stood in and just tried to replicate that.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

And this came up last week in Portland with a new student. Literally this exact same topic we're talking about when I had him do the had him do the feet together balancer. It was called the Bobby Jones drill. There's two versions, Bobby Jones A, Bobby Jones B. Bobby Jones A, there's two, there's there's two different dimensions of balance in the golf swing. There's toe-to-heel dimension. So you would rock back and forth, toe to heel, and find the balance point underneath the arch of your foot. So if your feet are 10 inches long, their balance point's five inches. Most people think it's on the balls of your feet. It's not. You're off balance if you're on the you got to be exactly underneath the arch of your foot, right? For Bobby Jones, Bobby Jones speech is side to side or left-right balance. And on a on a on a when you do the Bobby Jones drill where your feet are one inch apart, you don't you don't really want to do it with a full backswing because it's almost impossible, even for really good players, to do a full backswing, full finish, and not lose their balance. So I always have people do it in the context of a half swing where your hands can only go back to waist tie. So it's a waist to waist tie swing. Um, anyhow, the student was hitting the ball really good, and he said, Wow, this is how come he goes, I've been taking golf lessons for years and no one's ever shown me this drill. I go, Well, it's funny you mentioned that because about 35 years ago, Golf Digest magazine did a survey. They sent a survey out to every PGA pro in Canada, America, and Mexico and said, Can you tell us the number one most effective drill that helps people in the full swing improve their ball striking? And that's the number one reported drill. The results came back a few months later. And the Bobby Jones drill with your feet an inch apart was the number one best drill for improving ball striking. And I'll add a couple more things to that. Um, Bobby Jones famously, you know, he his teacher was the head pro at East Lake Country Club outside of Atlanta, named Stuart Maiden. And when Bobby Jones was 10 years old, I think it was his first or second year in golf, he made Bobby Jones hit every shot on the golf course that whole summer and every shot on the range with his feet one inch apart. And Bobby Jones's handicap went from something like 22 to 10 by the end of the summer. No way.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Honestly, Jim, I I took this to the track man yesterday. I was able to get a little session at the track man at our at our club. And I was swinging the driver, and I was just going feet together, feet together, feet together, and I was hitting the driver just as far as I would with I know with a wide stance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, because again, with that, that's a ton, there's two types of balance drills in my system. One is like the Bobby Jones drill, you're putting yourself precariously on the edge of being easily off balance. So you so that maximizes proprioception or awareness of balance in your in your mind and body. And the others are where you you put yourself in such a balanced position, mainly it's uh it's usually a wider stance, which lowers your center, lowers your belly button closer to the ground, like like twice as wide as a driver's stance, for example. Okay. Of course, that restricts your turns. You can only do like a half half a backswing, half a forward swing. But those are the two types of drills. And when you can be in balance, again, this is Hogan's number one thing. Downstream, other things that need to happen in the golf swing tend to happen automatically, spontaneously, like a better release, which is what you experienced. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Jim, we are mindful of your time, but just really, really quickly, just to close us off for Chris's benefit. So Chris, he just really recently shot his low score ever, but then you know, he's playing around soon after where he's getting a bit concerned about pull hooks creeping in. What would you recommend to him mid-season, knowing that you know, we don't want to reinvent the wheel here mid-season? So, what would be like your kind of parting message for someone like Chris, a low single-digit who is capable of shooting under par, who wants to get to scratch this season?

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Well, it would depend on what, you know, as they look at, obviously look at video, slow motion video with swing and know for sure. But I mean, I'm I'm a kind of a fanatic on uh on how important the grip position and grip pressure is. And I know everybody hates to change their grip because when you ask them to change their grip, it's like they the student thinks you're at you're asking them to change their F and personality, which you're not. Personality is not how you hold on to a golf club, so get rid of that idea if you have that currently in your head. I always start there. So if someone has either hand that's too strong, either hand or both, and they're hitting pull hooks, well, that's the obvious thing you change. Yeah, it'll be it'll you it'll feel terrible for two weeks, but if you do it every day for 30 minutes or more at home, you'll get used to it, and by the end of the second week, you'll love it. Especially if you stop hitting the pull hooks, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:34

So you are you saying, sorry, get a weaker, like instead of being like that with the club coming.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Can you show me your can you just show me your current grip? I can tell you if it's too strong. Well, you'll have to show me from the from this angle, like like this.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Right, okay. Sorry, give me one second. Let me show you. So I'm like that. Oh, one second. It'd be better if you have a club you have a club there? Yeah, I do actually. Give me one second.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Show me real quick with the club, and then I can see it. Well, just based on that, it doesn't look like it's too strong. Because again, there's other ways, there's other ways to pull hook. For example, the really common way to pull hook other than the grip is if you stall your pivot. If you stall your pivot, the energy that was in your pivot goes into your forearms.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah. Yeah. We need to we need to send you a few videos as well, Jim.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

So okay. This is if you describe it, David, what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 35:27

You're gonna have to turn Yeah, there you go. Take take your right hand off, so I can just see your left hand. Okay, put your right hand back on. No, you're you're not too strong. You have actually you have a neutral that's the grip I would teach you. That's a perfect grip. You know. So if you're pull hooking it, the first thing, the obvious thing would be is is your ball position too far forward in your stance? That alone can cause a pull hook, right? Too full too far forward because obviously with the arch. Yeah, because the tangent of the arch should be here, but your ball's over here, so the clubhead path is arcing to the inside, causing causing the pull. And that's ca if you had a lot of forearm roll to that, which tends to happen as well, that can cause a pull hook. Yeah. Okay. It's the opposite. If you have it too far back, that can cause a push hook, right? Yeah. No. And then the other thing is sculpt your pivot. Your chest should be rapidly rotating through it, but you don't want to you don't want to slow down your chest rotation, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Yeah, see, that's what I have found that to to try and stop the hook. I have been slowing down the swing from my normal, because I've got a really fast swing. Uh-and I found that like maybe like four or five balls when I slowed it down, I didn't hit such a bigger hook. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Because the energy has to go somewhere. There's a law in physics called the conservation of angular momentum. Like when a figure skater is spinning really fast, and she wants to slow down, she pushes her arms out and she'll slow down. And if she pulls them back in, she'll speed up.

unknown 36:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

When when your chest, the pivot rotation, the RPM speed of your chest suddenly breaks, that energy doesn't dis disappear into the void. It goes into your forearms. It causes early release of your forearm, your counterclockwise forearm roll, which shuts the face, which causes the pull hook.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Okay. No, thanks very much. Yeah. I needed to hear that just so I can go on my way to get to a scratch, to go with scratch.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

100%. Yeah. The other thing is grip pressure. If your grip pressure is too light, that can also cause early, early forearm roll and shut the face too much. Just firming up the pressure could fix it too, yeah. Okay. Perfect. And then the last thing is if your right hand pressure is tighter than your left hand pressure, that also causes too much face closure. So you want to ideally, yeah, if your right hand pressure is tighter than your left, that can also cause early forearm roll, causing the face to shut too much.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

I found that in my putting. I have now made sure that my when I putt, my left hand is stronger and my right hand's literally just light. And I don't because before I was pulling it and it was because my hand was too tight. Yeah, so and I but that's like I'm very good at self-correcting from when I used to get lessons of through my like junior years. Yeah. Like I can I remember a lot of the kind of what they would say, like if you're pulling it, then Rory tucks his right arm just so it can't get in front of him and just keep that left hand a little bit stronger. But that's the I'm good at those kind of little tweaks and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

So Dave, if if I would recommend you if you if you can study the best players in the world at their finish. Yeah. Uh right, so really, really get good at the finish, that would be helpful. And again, then do it like like Mark suggested do a lot of balance drills. And you know what, when someone has an improper release in that sort of in your handicap range, 12 handicap or higher, most of the time, because those guys tend to hit more slices than hooks, they have steering impulse, and they're I see this all the time with when I'm working with someone in your handicap range. I get in there, get really close to them, and I I grab my I take their right hand off and I put my right hand where their right hand was, and I I just work on the release and I can feel the tension. So they only have their left hand on the grip, and I'm trying to get their forearms to roll over, and they I can't get it to turn over. They're massively blocking the release. So the left wrist and forearm are locking up. That has to swivel like this really freely during release. There can't be any restriction whatsoever. Yeah?

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Whereas I have had a tendency of really hanging on to it a lot. That's right. I think. Yeah. Definitely. And I think there's a combination of all sorts of things going on without mechanical, technical, emotional. Yeah. There's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Well, the emotional part's, I think the emotional part is also fascinating, because that really means is why do people have steering impulse? They're trying to, they're trying to force it to go straight or they're trying to force it to not go crooked, either left or right, whatever their tendency is. And then I, and if and after we do the usual stuff and there's no improvement after an hour, I ask myself, and we've done an hour, we've done like three different training aids that normally work, we've done three different drills that normally work. Why is this guy still holding on? And it turns out because they have too much of the emotional side of their psyche invested in the outcome of the shot. And one of the essential skills that Carl Morris and I talk about all the time on his podcast is you have to deeply accept that hitting catastrophically bad shots is an essential part of our game. And the more you can accept that in advance early in the pre-shot routine, ironically, the less likely you are to hit a bad shot. Which is kind of interesting, don't you think?

SPEAKER_01 40:31

It's yeah, and again, Chris, the high lookany go bell for every time we hear the word acceptance, we need to ring it every time. Quick pause there. And actually, Jim has just mentioned Carl Morris and Carl's philosophy because acceptance and how we deal with bad shots is something Carl talks about all the time. And that is one of the reasons we are so excited about building How Low Can You Go live. We're going to spend two days with Carl at the incredible Cameron House on Lock Lowman, working on the mental side of the game as well as getting out there and playing. If that sounds like your kind of thing, there's a link in the show notes for you to join the priority list. We hope that you can be there. Right. Let's get back to Jim Waldron. Yes, yeah. Honestly, all the great people we've spoken to, Jim, this has been the recurring theme. And it's an easier concept to grasp than it is to train, I would say. You know, it's it's one of those things that, you know, well, I could give you a tip on how to train it really quickly.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Please do, please do. This is one of the essential aspects of my Yips cure program. But I work I do it with a lot of uh golfers who don't have Yips, is you have to sign up as a single on a weekend on a very popular public golf course. And so, Dave, you would say on the first tee, you would introduce yourself, you'd say, Hey, I'm Dave, I play off 14, but I'm having some weird issues in the mental game. You're gonna see some horrifically bad shots today, but don't worry, I'll pick up the ball and put it in my pocket if I need to to keep up pace of play. And you will need to do that. So you got to shoot. Uh so if you do this, Dave, you have to shoot 115 or higher in front of and they're not gonna know that you're doing that you're hitting bad shots on purpose, right? They're they're gonna think, and you're gonna hold your finish and watch the bad shot go out of bounds and then laugh at yourself and pretend you don't give a shit, right? Like you're gonna laugh, you're gonna make a self-deprecating comment. And one of the guys who's ever the most outgoing by the third or fourth hole is gonna walk up to you and say, Are you sure you play off 14? Because you look like you play off 30. You're gonna go, No, I really am. Then he's gonna say, I have to say, I'm very impressed. If I were you, I'd be so pissed at the quality of these terrible shots. You're laughing at yourself, you're smiling, you don't see could you're gonna say, well, why would I be concerned about a bit what a little white ball does? In this big scheme of my life, that's the least important thing, which it should be, if your values are are right, right? So you're putting you're putting golf in in its place, so to speak, by deliberately failing in front of your peers on purpose. That's how you get the fear monkey off your back, the quickest way that I know of.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

And deliberately feeling dramatically in front of complete strangers, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Yeah. Yeah. They won't know that you they'll they'll think that you're trying to do what they're doing, which is to not hit bad shots and only hit good shots. They're not going to know you're now you can tell them when you walk off the 18th screen. A lot of my students will tell the people that by the way, I really am playing off 14, and 90% of those bad shots I hit. I hit those shots out of bounds on purpose, or I hit them into the water on purpose. It's a way of getting the fear monkey off your back.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

That is absolutely brilliant. That's that's a that's a really, really good YouTube video in the making, Chris. I think. That you can pull that off without these people doing it.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

I'll tell you a quick story. There was a funny story. The first time I had one of my longtime students who was a good player eventually became an assistant teacher at my uh golf schools. The first time he did it at a at a the most popular public horse in Portland, Oregon, uh he was doing really well, failing on purpose. And at 18, his intention was to top his by the way, he's remember, he's hitting ter terrible shots at laughing, right? Not upset, right? So he tries to top it and he hits it right on the screws, hits it 270 right down the middle, and he starts muttering to himself because he's mad that he was did he hit a good shot. And as it turns out, of course, they told these three strangers when they were done playing the hole. So then he's got a six iron in. He says, Well, I'll I'll top the six iron, right? So he's trying to like triple the hole, right? He accidentally hits it right on the middle of the club face, hits it pin high 30 feet from the hole. Now he's really pissed, right? Because he's he's like, no, he's not, he's not being happy, and you know, it's literally the opposite. Those are the two best shots you've hit all day, and you're upset about it, and it'd be all the crappy shots you were laughing at. Now he's got a 30-foot putt, right, for Birdie, and he says to himself, I'll four putt it, I'll hit the first putt, like really short. He hits it too hard, goes in the hole for Birdie, and he yells out, I won't tell well, you can imagine, it begins with M and F. MF really low. And these three stranges were like, dude, what are you doing? Why are you and he told then he had to tell him the story that he was doing this exercise on purpose, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:34

That is absolutely classic. And that that I think sums up how infuriating and maddening this game of golf is. Even when you're trying to play badly, you can play well.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

He had three perfect shots in a row and he's really upset about it because he was wasn't able to do the drill properly. Oh, that is genius.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Um what well I'm gonna try, Chris. I need to try and do this, but that is I think you should. It's gonna take some courage to do that, but uh, that is such that's such a brilliant way of looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

You've got to stick to it for the 18 holes. You can't park it after four because you're like, nah, I can't do this.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

And tell us this, tell us this, Jim. Have you have you found that people who have actually done that have had really kind of good progress after that just because their acceptance levels are you they feel like, well, you know, I I can't be more accepting than a situation like that.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

That's right. It's it's the the over the feedback is overwhelming positive. I don't think I've had anybody had a negative experience from it. Everybody gets the fear monkey off their back, usually completely off, usually just doing that one time, and then they're bulletproof, they're fearless on the golf course. It's based on the most, I think the most proven effective form of modern psychotherapy, which is called exposure therapy, or it's also called desensitization therapy, where you do the thing you're afraid of on purpose in gradual doses to get the fear monkey off your back. That's kind of what it is. There's a there's another version of it, you do it on the range by yourself, where you deliberately hit one of the seven types of bad shots if it's a long game issue, you know, which are shank, push, pull, hook, slice, fat, thin, right? Yeah. You do like you might you see you decide I'm gonna top the ball five times in a row, I'm gonna hold my finish, watch the bad shots, totally embrace failure, and then laugh at yourself or make a funny comment, right? Then you hit six slices. So you do that first on the range, then you do it by yourself in a nine-hole round by yourself, where you deliberately hit bad shots on the golf course. And then the third stage is where you do it with the three strangers. The fourth stage you do with your regular group of golf buddies, and again, you don't tell them until you walk off 18 green. And that's actually harder for most people because most people care more about their friends' opinion of themselves than they do three strangers, right?

SPEAKER_02 47:50

See what happens if Dave, the way that Dave plays, he plays really bad, and then he says at the end of it, oh yeah, that was me practicing that what you had said, Jim, and he was actually Well then you have to call bullshit on it, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Yeah, yeah, I'm telling you you thought I was really playing badly there, Chris.

unknown 48:07

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

That's actually that could be that could be a good excuse, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm gonna use that. Why are you keeping saying that I'm the only one who's gonna do this, Chris? You need to do this too. He's already decided he ain't doing it.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

I think he's telling you there.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

He wants to protect his ego, Jim. Yeah, whereas I I don't have such insecurities, Chris. I'll just go out there and play.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

And the other way to do it is which is which is a little bit more uh intensive and more it takes more than just a five-hour run of golf, is to do I did a podcast six months ago or so with Carl. I think we did we actually did two about this. You need to I think everybody should go through a rite of passage, which is how we're designed by evolution to go through uh to go through the phase from leaving childhood behind to adopting a fully formed adult ego. It takes place in traditional societies in about two to eight weeks. So there's no adolescence in traditional tribal societies. You go from a kid to an adult very in a very short period of time. By by intention by intentionally setting up a situation that causes physical, mental, and emotional suffering on purpose. Okay. Right? So you shed that you shed that you shed the uh the fears, the irrational fears or the low self-esteem that kind of come with the territory of being a four-year-old, right? Because you don't have any any power. You depend on adults for your survival as a little kid. So tr traditional societies have always had rites of passage, but in in Western civilization, starting with the Industrial Revolution in 16th century England, we've lost that rite of passage. But when you go through a rite of passage, you're you're you're pretty much bulletproof on the golf course. Right? Yeah. That means you're okay. You're okay with failure. You're strong enough to accept catastrophic failure without taking it too personally.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Yes, and and what you just described there, where you go out and deliberately play badly and don't tell anyone, that sounds like the golf equivalent of a rite of passage.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Oh really. That's how I got it. That's how I developed it originally. That idea. Yeah. Was based on the rite of passage idea. Yeah. I love that. I do love that. It's very effective. If you want to get if you want to play fearless golf, you have to do that exercise, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Yeah. We've yeah, we've got our homework to do then, dude. That's that's so funny. Um, Jim, again, like I said, and we've run on even further, but we're we're mindful of your time. Um please, can you let people know where they can find out more about what you're doing? Sure. Where they can find out more about balance point golf, how to contact you, all of that.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Oh, yeah, sure. I'm not I'm not a huge fan of social media. I I kind of think it's with the exception of podcasts, I do a lot of podcasts. But I'm not a big fan of um a lot of social media stuff. So although I do one of my students started an Instagram account about five years ago, which I I hardly ever look at. Uh but I'm I'm old school, so just go to my my website if you want to hear more, which is balancepointgolf.com. Yeah. And there's a lot of information about my different golf schools and programs. And I about half of my teaching practice lately, starting about 15 years ago, are golfers, occasionally other other athletes with yips. Okay. About uh another 20% is purely mental game instruction. And then the other 30% is sort of uh mostly full swing, a a lot of short game and and some putting as well. Yeah. And I do webcam lessons. It isn't just in person. In fact, I'm doing about three-quarters of my teaching time is done in webcam instruction versus in-person.

unknown 51:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

I do in-person a little bit, still in Portland, Oregon. And I do I do a fair amount in for three months in the winter in Hawaii.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Yeah, well, yeah. That was leading to my final question is when can Chris and I come and spend some time with you, Jim? In Hawaii. When can we do that? Because I think we would learn a hell of a lot, don't you, Chris? Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Yeah, this is going to be a shorter version this year than typically, but I'm going to be in Hawaii teaching from January 7th through February 10th. I teach at Koalina Golf Club on the um west side of Oahu, about 20 minutes west of Honolulu.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

And is the weather and weather great at that point of the year?

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Usually it is, although we've had you probably heard we had catastrophic flooding last winter. Yeah. I heard that. It's possible we'll get rain, but generally, 90% of the time it's it's sunny and 80 degrees in the winter in Hawaii.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Amazing. Really nice. Well, listen, Jim, we'd love to keep in touch with you, let you know how we're getting on across the rest of this season.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Send me an email.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Yeah, yes, most definitely. And thank you so much for joining us on How Low Can You Go.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

I'd love to come on again and we could do part two. We could do some stuff on the arm swing illusion.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

There's plenty more to speak about. Yeah, there's definitely plenty more to chat on another podcast.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Plenty more chapters uh ahead of us. So really looking forward to the next time, Jim, and have a really good day. Speak soon. Thank you very much. Appreciate Jim Waldron. Take a boy. Absolutely fascinating stuff. So much of that, just making Chris and I rethink how we approach the game, how we approach the swing, how we approach fear of failure in front of other people. So much that so many of us battle with every time we tee it up. So lots to go out and put into practice. I think these episodes with Jim are the sort that you might want to just revisit a few times, maybe with a notepad, and just to glean so much of that absolute gold that Jim Waldron can offer. So thank you once again, Jim, for joining us. Before we go, just a quick reminder about how low can you go live. We are taking what we love about these conversations and we're hoping to bring it to life. Two days with Carl Morris at the Premium Cameron House in Loch Lomond is being proposed here, combining mental performance, world-class coaching, great golf, and live Hilo Can You Go experience in a fantastic location. If you would like to be there, join the priority list through the link in the show notes. We would love to see you there. Thank you all again for listening, and we will see you next time on Hilo Can You Go.