Early Indicators of Violence: A Patrol Prevention Method

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Hey guys, it's Chaffee from the Task Force 70 Foundation. Welcome. Guys, today we're talking about an update to a patrol institute program. If you're not uh familiar with the channel, um, please obviously like and just and subscribe. The algorithm changed recently. And uh, if you don't engage with the the uh show, uh it it kicks us in the nuts. So we'd really appreciate a like if you don't mind. Also, there'll be more detail long-term on this topic in particular, the law enforcement management of adolescent violence, uh, over on our Patreon page. So if you go to slash Task Force 70 Foundation, uh, our guest today, who is part of the Task Force 70 Foundation through the Patrol Institute, uh Jay Goldstein, um you'll be able to get a bunch of training from him over time uh through the Patreon. And we'll talk about that a little bit more later in the show. So, guys, this is a secondary uh or a follow-up update uh show on the project that we started about six months ago or so uh with Jake, uh who and we'll talk about uh how all that started very briefly. Um for the Patrol Institute, which is one of our mission pillars for the Task Force 70 Foundation, which is uh providing law enforcement officers with information that they can't get any other way uh or they haven't been trained on. So without any further ado, let's bring Jake on. Jake, welcome back to the show. I know that we talk almost every day, but you gotta pretend like we don't. Uh guys, Jake is a uh forensic uh psychology expert, uh school educated and whatnot, with some real-world experience as well. If you want to hear all the the detailed aspects of his background and whatnot, we did a show uh a little while ago. If you go down in our uh show page, uh you'll be able to find our first show. Uh but Jake, welcome on board again. Thanks. So we uh we started a project, Jake, uh, I don't even remember how many months ago, uh, regarding adolescent violence. Can you kind of talk the audience through what the initial uh goal of that program was and then kind of where it led? Uh I know it took several twists and turns uh as you really dug into it as kind of a full-time project. So uh if you don't mind back briefing folks on what we were trying to start with, what we thought we needed, and then what it turned out that we needed.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah. So you uh you approached me and we talked about different uh ideas for uh topics of uh research projects, and uh one that I was interested in and we agreed was important was dealing with this uh this problem of adolescent violence, you know, people under 25 uh you know committing acts of violence. And uh I I think the angle originally that you uh proposed had to do with uh you know radicalization and grooming and all that, which uh you know was an interesting angle, but that just kind of didn't prove out when I started digging into it. Which sounds super interesting, and it's not that it's not there, like it's a caveat, right? It's just not it's not the main thing, right? It's not it's not universal, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Right, which is what surprised me. What your findings really surprised me, and it was it was good to see us perform actual science where we disprove our own theory. Yeah, I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

That's what science is, yeah. You gotta be willing, you're probably willing to go back to the drawing board and just say, nah, that doesn't add up, you know.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Right. Exactly. I didn't mean to interrupt you, please continue.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Very good. Uh so yeah, like I said, uh it's it's not that it's completely not present, it's just not it has limited limited application, I guess, if that kind of makes sense. Um it does. So um basically what I started doing is I found that really there's a ton of information out there, just huge repositories. Like people study this stuff, they really do. Uh you know, I found a database of a guy, he's uh he's a he's a psychologist or something like that, you know. He's in the field, he he studies his life's work. He's been doing this for like 15 years or more. He studies these shooters, these you know, right and uh and there's a whole database, it has like it's a repository of uh records, everything about these cases. And basically I just scrubbed through them and I found the things that I thought were the most representative, the most interesting, uh the most significant events, Columbine, uh the thing in uh Oxford, Michigan from a few years ago. Um the Parkland thing in Florida. You know what I found is not all not all things are present in all cases, but there's definitely some patterns, right? That emerge, and that's what to me is important that we just start identifying these things and presenting them to the right people to make them actionable. Like, but they have to be just stilled to the people who will who can and will use them.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

One thing I found is that you know it's it's a real it's a real problem. Like a lot of this stuff is just the research is done, but it's done academically and it's stuck behind these paywalls. Like basically, if you don't have a school account, you're never gonna see all this published, you know, these published journals, white paper, like you won't get it. And if you did, you I did because I went to school, like and I said I I had to. I did research at school, so I have the I have the access to the library, I have access to all these databases, all these things, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah, and a normal patrolman not only doesn't have that, but also doesn't have the initiative generally going call to call to do that research that's necessary for the depth of knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Right. So essentially what you asked me to do, and I think is actually really sound, and I've I've actually presented this to, you know, I've talked to every person I can in every profession that's you know adjacent to this has any stake in this problem, and you know, particularly I'm interested in I read everything I can, you know. I know like you probably I I probably annoy you, right? I just I send you stuff every, you know, just randomly every day because I read, I watch. Every person that puts out content, publishes anything that's you know, any professional that's like not just filling a filling a slot and you know being a warm body, you know, that actually cares about this stuff, is really in cares with it. I I care about what they're doing, what they're saying, because I want to learn and I make contact with people and I've made some useful contacts. And well, we we we want to collaborate, we want to get together, we want to, you know, that's the whole point of the foundation. Yeah, you know, and that's that's what we're doing. And people, people are really responding to what they're into. And like I mean, I've I sent you someone the other day who I understand had a meaningful uh conversation with.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

We really did. Yeah, and that's really the that's the whole point of the foundation. If you if this is the first time watching the show, the task force 70 foundation exists to support the guys who aren't getting help from anywhere else. And unfortunately, that's 70% of the departments in the United States are under 12 officers and they don't have a pot to piss in, frankly. So not only don't they get very good training if they get any training at all, but they don't have access or the time or the manpower to assign a specialist in their department to studying adolescent violence, for instance. Uh, there are large departments that do that, uh, and and we've talked to some of them, and they they do great work and great research, but none of that matriculates down to the street level for the small agency officer. So that's what the foundation exists, or who it exists to support.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

And it's funny you say that. I just had a really random thought, too. It's like, do you ever notice? And again, this is something I need to like think more about and you know study a little more empirically, but do you ever notice how most of these things don't tend to happen in those like large jurisdictions that probably dedicate the resources to do this?

SPEAKER_02 9:04

It's all and when they do, they're they're rapidly resolved when they're rapidly resolved, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah, exactly. And like you said, you notice a big difference when things happen here versus when they happen in Yvalde, Texas, not all anybody all, right? Like the biggest failures happen in these places that are definitely you know the task force 70 lane, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:29

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I'm I'm super grateful with how much work you've put into this and that we're we're adjusting fire as you discover new trends and information. So where did this uh end us up, so to speak, for this first phase of of the program? Where did we kind of end up?

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Okay, so sorry, so I send you I essentially after I had distilled all of my findings into, you know, I made you a night chart that I think really encapsulated, you know. It did. You know, the most general patterns and all this of you know these offenders and stuff, uh then you know, then the assignment was hey, let's let's make this, let's make this uh this this this training and slash uh well it's not even a training, it's a it's a it's a cheat card. It's it's an aid, it's an aid for, you know, right for use, you know, daily use uh in this three by five card, right? Right, which okay, like I ran with that, made that. And uh by the time that this thing uh has aired, this this will be published and available.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yep. If you go to by the time this publishes, uh when you go to tf70.org, um probably on the homepage. Uh if not, we'll direct you to it uh properly here on screen as our drunk editor uh gets to it, uh with the link to that, and I'm sure the link will be in the description, uh, to get this card. So it'll be in PDF format. You print it out, cut it out. It's a two-sided form that Jake built. One side, and I'll let you explain in detail what they are, but but one side is indicators that we need to be looking for, and the other side is the the fundamental three-step field interview process, which just isn't taught anymore, unfortunately. And we'll we'll talk about that a little bit more later. Uh, can you talk about so all of that work distills down into something that's usable on the street, which is kind of the whole point of the foundation.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

I would we do all the workable workable solutions for for the actual working cop.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Like that's the whole not trying to give you a 30-page white paper uh to try to digest.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Because, like, all due respect, I I I know I know your ass ain't gonna read it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

You exactly because they're not, you know, they're busy, you know. Their kids are in soccer, they're going going to calls, and yeah, yeah, we get it, but it's not just your spells, we get it, but like it's still not it's still not acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Like, we need you to do, you know, so here you go. Like, we're we're gonna meet we're gonna meet you where you are, right? And I've had to I've you know, again, the cops that you know, the ones that are the ones that are educated, the ones that are more scholarly, the ones that dig into the stuff, like that, you know, they they they agree that this is the perfect solution.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

It's like let's meet you where you are, right? Like right. Exactly. So can you explain what the cheat card uh contains on the first side? Just kind of in general what it is.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, so uh so on Syrah there you you have uh you know basically basically things that I tried to make as you know generalizable as possible, right? Um things that you that you might see and identify and go this should concern you, right? Let me let me let me dig into this. I should I should act to find out what's going on here, right? Right. And then uh the the B side is is all the uh it's like what you said, it's the uh it's the it's the uh traditional uh you know the field interviewing process.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Which is a which is a lost art, uh, I'm finding like it's it's barely taught anywhere anymore. Uh there's some places that still do it, some entire states still do it, uh, but there's other places where a lot of our audience, uh the guys we're trying to serve, go to school, just don't even teach it anymore. And it's a it's a very well-time proven three-step interview process. Uh, if you want to learn about it, there'll be a uh several Patreon classes on it eventually. And excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Ultimately, we're gonna create a uh a virtual uh training uh thing. Yes. So next that's the next step, I think, to the follow this.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

It is so um so those indicators that you talked about, those are meant to be cues to the patrolman that I'm like this is a scratch point. Like I'm I'm looking at what I'm seeing, and then do any of these things jump out at me, or as I'm interviewing someone using a good three-step field interview, it is anything jumping out at me from this list? And if so, it's not an indicator that, and and correct me with if I'm wrong, it's not an indicator that this person has a higher propensity for to violence, it's an indicator to dig. Like if you're seeing indicators of this, it's worth digging. And if you're finding things as you dig, it's worth bringing in other resources because we understand the patrolmen don't have the resourcing, the manpower, the time to do true in-depth investigation.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

We're just trying to find trip flares, is correct.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah, it's exactly, yeah, like trip wire. Like you said, it's like it's just I mean, you know, again, your your average patrol cop, again, all due respect, is so far from qualified. Like you're not you're not even an investigator, like you're just you know, an investigator, even you know, you're you're still not, you know, you're not a social worker, you're not a you know, right.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

And this is a interdisciplinary problem.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

SROs tend to have more training, they're trained a little differently because they do a very different job, you know. Sure. But sure. But yeah, get it, get it, don't try to handle it yourself. You're just you're like the first line of defense, like you said, like the tripwire analogy. You're you're the early warning to just but you have to you have to act on it. You can't ignore it, you know? Right. And it's well, and if we and and like I said, cheat card is a misnomer, like this isn't gonna do the work for you. It's not right, it's not follow the checklist. It's just it's just giving you things that uh I've determined are important that you need to look at and just go, if you see this, start start asking questions. And then the questions, like you said, the questions will then then go back to the list, right? And then see if that's you'll learn it's it's this back and forth process.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Exactly. You have to ask you. Yes, and it allows us to more rapidly and earlier engage the multiple multiple disciplines necessary to address these problems early. You and I talked uh several times early on in this project about how simple it is if it's recognized to divert this behavior before it turns kinetic. Like it doesn't take much for an officer to recognize something early enough and have the proper resources, even in a in a poorly budgeted uh jurisdiction. We generally still have at least enough to call in other resources if we need it and divert a potential suspect and keep them uh keep them out of becoming a suspect. Like engage early enough uh is kind of the goal of the of the indicators list.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Yeah, I mean, I think that's you know, I've I've I've spoken to SROs, the ones that really are are truly there because they because they're committed and they love what they do, like right, and they will tell you like it's rewarding to have those successes where it's like they will literally speak to a kid later that says, you know what, I I used to like really hate you, like you know, but when you were totally right about I was headed down a bad path and you know, you know, and eventually I straightened out and like you know, I want to thank you and all that kind of stuff like that. Right. Like that's the goal here. Like SROs are not supposed to be like enforcement is supposed to be like the most minor part of you know, like that's the last resort, right? Like, yeah, you want them to take action where they have to. That's that's the point. You have the authority to do so and you should. But like right, but the point is really to it's to engage with these kids appropriately, right? To like make positive differences. It's like, you know, that's that's the thing. A lot of people argue, oh, we're you know, it's this, it's the school prison pipeline. We just want to we want to put more kids in. No, we don't. Right. We just want them to we just want them to act right and like you know, stay out of you know, get on a good path. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Like, you know, I've had uh we've had the benefit of observing human behavior for about 12,000 years that we can document, and all teenagers act the same throughout history. The the difference is the comfort level and the the comfortable wealth that teenagers exist in that they can't see around them allows them to never correct. And for the ones that are are a little too far off track, having a fairly simple set of indicators to look for that tell us that we need some level of intervention here uh is super valuable to those kids, just like you said, because our society is so wealthy that there's no consequence to them as there would have been a hundred years ago. There would have been a consequence to that behavior. We're too wealthy now.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

So this is a it's changed over time, and it's just it's just gotten worse and worse. Like, right, and what you see is yeah, yeah, it's just it's it's a lack of just essentially natural consequences, like consequences have to be built in. Like you couldn't afford, right? You couldn't afford to screw up like you do now. Like there's no there's a safety net, like you were gonna suffer dire consequences, right? You know, that was just how it was. Um, you know, and I think there's yeah, like what you see these days is that I I think that the the social controls, you know, just informal and otherwise, have have just eroded. And now we're now we rely now we rely on legal and to a to a to a greater extent now, um right. Kind of pseudo legal, pseudo-legal, but other formal, you know, systems, right? Like a lot of it, a lot of it is medicalized now, right? You know, social controls, because informal ones eroded.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

When in the past informal ones were actually the most effective, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Right. And they just were so wealthy that they don't exist.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

The parents are able to the family unit, the tribe, whatever the you know, whatever the you know, the commute, whatever you want to call it, right? That's all gone now.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Right. The the parents are basically forced now to outsource the a lot of this.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

They are they forced. I mean, they yeah, they are, I guess. Well, they're allowed to, or encouraged to. But they do, like they ultimately ultimately a lot of them want to. Right. Well, yeah, it's the natural human tendency. It's in it's inconvenient, it's inconvenient to be a parent, right? Right, exactly. I think that's that's that's ultimately like I think what this is about. And you see it more and more in these cases too. And one thing, like another thought that I've I've uh chewed on a lot, you know, going through all this is it's like from uh you know particularly, you know, uh a legalistic, you know, standpoint is you know, right, how do you how do you apportion responsibility like in a hierarchy for uh these types of things, these acts of violence by these kids? Who's most responsible? Is it the perpetrator themselves? Is it their parents? Right, is it is it the cops, is the uh government, is it is it the school, like Right. Is it is it is a doctor's? Who is this? You know. And can I say a portion? I say a portion because it's not just one of the uh it's not like you know, choose one, it's like select all the above and to like how much to what extent, like was allocated, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Right. So I'd like you to dig into that for us a little bit. So have we because of our comfort cultural shift? Uh it's way too deep of a sociological issue for me, but have we created a circumstance where we have willingly given up the liberty of raising our own children to some extent, and every family's different, but has it made it much easier now for us to give up that responsibility in exchange for comfort on our part and control on the part of the institutions? Is that a factor, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 23:05

I think so. I think so. Like, so one thing, you know, and again, like I said, uh, there's that there's that caveat of you know the radicalization, right? Like uh it's present in some ways, like most notably in the cases where uh where the where the trans-identifying people are are involved, right? Like where that's where that's involved in this. Like like geez, like we talk all the time, like you said, since we started this, how many of those cases involved people like that? Right. A lot. A lot, right? Like you know, and so what I see there is that regarding regarding the trans, like have you noticed that like so there's the issue now where I think it's in California. Is it in California?

SPEAKER_02 23:57

One of the like where the schools the schools don't have to tell the parents in some cases they're prohibited from telling the parents.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Right, like there though, that's what I'm saying. Right, there was like a state law that prohibits the schools from telling the parents that their kid, you know, identifies as or whatever, you know. Right. Like, and that actually just went to the Supreme Court just ruled on it and just struck that down.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

No. So you're seeing some pushback that parents do want to take back some semblance of control.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Right. Which is a good sign.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Which is a good sign. So okay, right. There there is some correction, but um but but see what I'm saying though, see how like but you have like ideological things going on where they are grooming these kids and sort of setting them up, encouraging, you know, like right. Also, you're also seeing it with the uh, you know, like what what kind of what kind of doctor? I mean, like this that has to be malpractice, right? To go ahead and be, you know, transitioning minors. Why are you letting them make these make these decisions? Right. You're not making you a minor, you can't make any decisions, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Right. Right. Exactly. And that's a that is.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

And they are. They're starting to now, they're starting to now sue these, they're now starting to sue these doctors for malpractice.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

As they should.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Which is also possible.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

As they should.

unknown 25:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

As they should exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

But that's what I'm saying. So there are there are things in play that I think there are some arguably grooming type of things, right? Like you are manipulating kids that uh their brains are not fully developed until you're 25. That's what the science kind of worse, right? That's what we know. Right. Um which raises other questions, which raises other questions. I mean, what like what what is this arbitrary age of majority? 18? Who said? You know, you can vote. Why would people vote and make decisions? Right. You know, join the military, you know, all these things that no. Are you are you are you grown enough to do that? I I don't I'm starting to think not.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Well, you know the challenge is uh when you get to things like voting in military service, we're we're fighting against well, we're not fighting against, we run risks at with all liberties, we run risks, right? We run the risk, excuse me, of disenfranchising, and I mean that in the true constitutional sense of the word, not in the leftist sense of the word, um, of allowing people the grace to grow up while still being allowed to participate and contribute. Um, do I think people should be able to vote at 16? Absolutely not. Uh, I don't I have some pretty hardcore views on voting that nobody wants to hear. Uh, but but military service, we need them at 18 as a as a constitutional republic. But how do we like that's a whole nother thing outside of our lane? Is are there more effective ways to do what the marine corps does, where it it accelerates maturity in 18-year-old males, the marine corps does through their training processes. They they they accelerate maturation.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

The military the military in general does it pretty well, like again, it varies a little bit by you know, your branch of service and stuff. Obviously, the Marines probably do it the best, like right, yeah, and then probably the army, then you know, you know, whatever, then or the navy, whatever, right? Fine, right? Right, like Air Force, you know, fine, right? Whatever. But like, but no, I mean, again, you've been through it, I've been through it. Like, yeah, I agree, it's good for you, and it does. And I'm not saying that, you know, look, all these things are individual, but I'm just saying from the standpoint of if we really want to be consistent and talk about what's universally true, it's like I'm not saying I have the answers, I'm just saying, like, let's you can't say in one breath, well, you're an adult, but then you're not. Right, right, exactly. You know what I mean? That's that's yeah, I like it. I I just I just want people to discuss about this, is all right, you know exactly, exactly. So but it but anyway, and another thing I I think you and I have talked about, it's like I think things have effects at different ages, right? Like when you're like again, you you're not even fully formed where you're going to be, but you start altering your brain chemistry, right? That probably has more I don't even know if it's more dangerous, but it's more unpredictable effects, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Absolutely, I would absolutely agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Um I can start seeing up a kid full of SSRIs, right? You know what I'm saying? Like, what are you what are you doing to their brain development?

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Right. And I'm sure that it's going now, uh, with with Secretary Kennedy, but I've heard a couple of his speeches talking about that and trying to establish when it's safe to introduce SSRIs. Well, they're not recommending it.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

They're not recommended for children, right? Like they're already not FDA approved for children, but people are doing it anyway. You know what I mean? Like that's that's that's one that's one thing. But what do you but what do you see in a lot of these kids? Again, not in everyone, but like almost overwhelmingly, what do you see in these, or you see these kids that shoot up their school or whatever place, right? Pumped up SSRIs, right? Like, oh, and they probably experiment with illegal drugs too. Right, right. And not to mention, not to mention, it's like I said, you know, you introduce these things when, you know, if an adult wants to do it, you know, to unwind, I mean, have a drink too. It's the same thing, right? And like want to unwind with, you know, whatever, fine. But like kids, different story, right? Right. Not to mention, like, you know, uh marijuana today. This ain't your daddy's dope, like right, it's stronger than it ever was, you know, because it's more simple, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Well, and there's the the borderline bipolar, borderline psychopathy interaction with high THC marijuana. There's all kinds of problems with that that just aren't if they're being addressed, they're being addressed on too high of a level, they haven't matriculated down to the public yet. Uh, because there's some pretty serious issues there. So that's and I know a lot of that is addressed in the the I keep calling it a checklist and it drives you crazy, but that's how cops think is in checklists.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

I I understand. I'm I'm just I'm just clarifying like why, you know, sure. Like, don't don't, I mean it's it's things will be located. But yes, I understand why like though they're gonna do it. I understand. You know, but but even identifying those things is important. But I guess how I guess how I look at this too, it's like going back to what you you know, like you and I have, I know you and I have talked about this. Like to me, it's to me it's like the azimuth. All I need to do is just knock you off one degree, one degree, right? And that completely changes course, right? And you can wind up somewhere totally different, and that's all we want here. That's all we're looking for. Like trying to avoid the kinetic outcome. That's perfectly achievable, yeah. Like, I mean, yeah, you know, you do you know, orienteering, you know, you you're you're off, you're off one degree, you're gonna end up way over there, totally different like and that's for the officers in the audience.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

That's the purpose of all of this work is to give you the tools to recognize it early enough, even just the potential early enough to be able to knock them that one degree, and you may be able to do it on a patrol call, like with one conversation.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah, an unruly juvenile call. Yeah, it's something as simple as, you know, whatever. Like, yeah, that could be the place where you intervene right there. And and again, to put it into you know, land navigation orienteering terms for those who don't know, right? Like the funny thing is, yeah, you shoot an azimuth, right? Like, yeah, here's your heading. And the further you go, the further you walk, the more that deviation makes a difference.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

So exactly the earlier the better.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

And then and then the other thing, like again, just to just to conceptualize this, is you know, all these things that we're talking about, they're they're they're all small things, right? But they they're just what I what I see it as, it's like it's a stacking of tolerances that will just all together can just create the perfect storm of just lead to this this violent outcome, right? Yeah, and except you created the conditions for it, but if you remove one of these things from from them, you you can change the whole thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Exactly, and that that bad outcome could be a uh catastrophic kinetic event all the way down to a family abuse situation, like we can prevent all of those because excuse me, a lot of these negative outcomes never make the public news because they appear minor to society. But if we're serving the small communities that we're trying to serve by working in small town and rural agencies, we're not only trying to prevent the school shooter, we're also trying to prevent the possible future addicts, the the family abuse circumstances, the the forced people in people who are homeless, people who are, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

I mean, all these things, yeah, all these things, all these things have a social cost. That's that's the whole thing. Like all these things that look opposite every day. Like, because like you said, the most right, the you know, the yes, the the mass casualty event is the most extreme, right? Like that's the most you know, and that's what everybody that's it gets people's attention, but like, yeah, but you're right. Like, yeah, the like the cop on the street sees this stuff every day, and it's just it's just low things that people just don't care about.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

And and how many of these do we see that we saw earlier and didn't recognize, which is one of the goals of this project, is to recognize these things as possibilities early. That that 13-year-old girl may not maybe an easy call to resolve, but can I can I resolve 130 future small time dope arrests 10 years from now by an intervention now?

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Chess not checking, right? Yeah, let's let's let's let's think big, right? You know, strategic, the long game, not not tactical, right? Len, you know, right? Like, yeah, do you yeah, do you want to clear the call or do you want to solve real problems?

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Like right. And and the community expects us, and the smaller the agency, the more true this is. The community expects us to be helping solve those problems. Ultimately, one of the things I love about the founders and the constitution is all of it is underwritten with a presumed understanding of individual agency. And it's still up to this, even a child, to do the work, uh, and the parents to help them do the work. A lot of them, though, live so closely together for such a long period of time that they're not recognizing the mate, the meta-trend within their own family. And using something as simple as a list of indicators to watch for, you can recognize two or three of those, speak to the parents and say, okay, not for nothing. But I'm seeing some concerns here that aren't a law enforcement issue right now, right? But they have the potential to be. So, how about we connect you with whatever our local services are? Yeah, what even if in a lot of small agencies, the social worker systems have a really bad rap, and and rightfully so. Um, like I'm not here to take your kids away. This isn't a CPS case. I'm just telling you that that little Billy is showing some indicators that that create greater risk for what I know you want the outcome to be as a parent. I know you don't want Billy to to be strung out underneath a bridge. But and I'm not saying he's headed there, I'm saying I'm seeing indicators that show him susceptible to that kind of lifestyle, or I see indicators that he could possibly grow into something that would feel or someone who would feel that violence is his only solution to his to his psychological problem. So these are just some things, and what resources do you have, and how can I help? And that's kind of the point of the program, really, is to serve these small communities in ways that they just don't have any other capability of being served. Um like the CPS or DCS of whatever your county or city is doesn't have the resources to keep up with these kids. And uh and it's not really the government's place to either.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yeah, I you're right. And I think that's that's an important point, right? Like it's it's it's just it's it's a it's just kind of a it's a balancing of these interests, right? Like you said, right? No, nobody, you know, yeah, we want a constitutional government, not you know, some draconian, you know, authoritarian thing. Like, no, nobody wants to take your kids away, nobody wants to take your kids to jail, you know. None of this, like it's not that's not the point, that's not the goal here, right? But there are there are public interests though that have to be like acknowledged, right? Mm-hmm. Right. You know, yeah, like you know, you're making something, you know, yeah, like public order, peace, you know, like tranquility, all that stuff like that, domestic tranquility, right? It's all in a you know, like people have a reasonable expectation of that.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Like yeah, your neighbors do.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yeah, your your individual liberties kind of stop where other people begin, right? Like right, right. Exactly. Uh you know, and look to like to be clear, it was like you know, again, nobody nobody wants to stigmatize, you know, mental illness either, right? Like mentally ill people, many, many of them, actually, probably most are not violent, right? Right, but I will say overwhelming number of people who are violent are mentally ill.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Right. Yeah, we start statistic stacking that problem, it filters out pretty quick. It's a pretty high number, uh, like exactly what you said. The majority of mentally ill people aren't violent, but the majority of violent people have some level of a mental illness that was identifiable much earlier, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:44

And again, and again, like we're sort of kind of split in hairs. Like, does it does it matter from a standpoint of you know, criminal responsibility or anything? No, it doesn't. Like or they like like criminal law does not recognize uh personality disorders and right, you know, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

And it shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

And it shouldn't, correct? Like, right, you know, look the law is only concerned with do you do you know right from wrong and you know stuff like that? But but still we do need to acknowledge they they are they are mentally disordered, correct?

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Like right. And and as as officers and deputies, it's our job to protect our community. And can we do that most effectively when the person is 14 years old and we can identify some indicators that require some assistance, intervention, uh multi also it will help you just to understand, like just in how you deal with people, like you know, somebody who is mentally disordered, like guess what?

SPEAKER_01 40:45

You're not gonna communicate with them the same that you do with somebody who isn't. It just isn't, right? Like you get that person, you know, and this is another thing that I think is really kind of important. I want to, you know, kind of highlight too, is that look, when you know, as a cop, like 99% of the people you interact with are gonna just they're gonna just be compliant, like okay, you know, like, but then you get that one percent that just isn't, but you have to deal with them differently than people who are right, like just acknowledge the difference, be prepared for it, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:20

So a lot of the indicators mirror really well with the crisis intervention training program that's been going on nationally for about 20 years now, and I'm seeing a reduction in the amount of officers who have access to that training. So uh the purpose of me bringing this up in this show is if you're an officer, search out for the nearest. It's called CIT. Uh, if as a new officer, you may not know much about it. Um, every officer needs to receive a pretty high level of crisis intervention training. Uh, it's not hostage negotiation, it's the intersection of violent crime, potential, and mental illness. And it's a it's a great program. And if you take one of those courses and then you go back and compare it to the list uh that you have created, people will find a lot of mirroring in that, which is which is a good thing. Like utilize the cross-referencing of training uh to maximum effect. Like one training course is not the solution to every problem type of thing. But CIT training is critically important the smaller that you're it becomes more important the smaller the agency that you work with, uh, because you don't have access to the resources of the highly educated officers who also happen to be on duty. Who, you know, we have a CIT specialist and we have a uh homeless advocate officer, and we have like small agencies don't have any of that.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

So yeah, it's you, you're like, you're it, man. Like that's the whole thing. Right, you know, and that's and that's the thing. Like, you know, crisis can just run the gamut. It can be it can be chronic and people, you know, it could be acute, right? You know, and that's and that's the thing. Like somebody could just be having a really bad day, they could be drug induced, they could be, you know, right, who knows why, right? You know, and you you you still have to be able to respond.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Exactly. So, Jake, you you've done a great job with this piece of the project, thank you. And uh we will be publishing the um the card. Um, we're still trying to come up with a name for it. If if we have one, the drunk editor will flash it up on the screen, but we might not have a name for it, but it'll be on the website, easily found. Uh, download it, print it out, cut it out. So, kids, we used to have a thing when Jake and I were growing up called a laminator. And we used to be able to put things together so that you had a two-sided card and you could laminate it. And we're a nonprofit foundation, so we're not going to print 50,000 of them and mail them to you. You're going to have to print it out and laminate it yourself. So we strongly encourage you guys to do that. If you want to be a good patrol teammate, you'll do enough for all of your guys and you'll print them out and you'll talk about them. So there will be uh on Patreon uh fairly soon. Uh I'm gonna ask Jake to do a quick 10 or 15 minute uh detailed explanation of the card and what what we're using it for uh and how to use it effectively. Uh so if you want that, check track us down to Patreon, which brings us kind of to the next uh stage of our conversation, Jake, is you're gonna be doing uh ongoing training through Patreon. Uh if you don't understand the what the foundation is, or if I've word-salladed it to death, so we try to touch guys as often and as as frequently as possible. So in a good way. So we start with the how would you make that how did you make that sound so weird? I'm always I'm always down for weird, bro. So we start with Patreon. Uh, for the officers, it's a it's a very low ask. Uh, everything that Patreon costs goes to fulfilling this mission that we're doing now, in addition to the actual training, which is integrating the work that Jake is doing with what the officers actually need that they don't get uh in other things. Um so through Patreon, Jake will be providing an ongoing stream of just very informal but valuable uh training lessons. Well and then roll call training classes. Uh the next level up is something that we haven't formally announced yet, but we're validating right now uh with a couple of agencies in Indiana, which is our virtual training team um mechanism, which is already on the website, but you'll notice that there's no classes available yet. As soon as that's validated, we'll be starting pushing uh publishing and promoting uh two or three classes to start with: a patrol uh trainer's course, uh patrol uh leaders course, and Jake is going to do a patrol. We have it doesn't even have a title yet, but he already knows in his head what he wants to teach. So you'll be able to field interviewing type course, um, how to effectively interview people. That's uh you sign up for those and you come once a week for an hour on a virtual live training session. And then the next level up is the mobile training teams. Uh, our next one's in uh Pittsburgh. Uh, it will have already occurred by the time this video publishes. Those are three-day courses that cover our big five, and then finally the campus training. So um, anyhow, I I put out a bunch of information there, but um I'd like you to talk about some of the topic focuses that you'd like to have on Patreon for the roll call training type things or uh sessions that you'd like to push out just so that people know kind of what to look for when they see your face on their Patreon account.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Um you know what really interests me, like I said, it's just it's uh it's just the way that people engage with uh with with others. Like I I think it's important to I I'm I'm really into the idea of just kind of uh not ignoring warning signs, right? People are people are putting off cues into the world, right? Like they're they're and if you if you learn how to read them, that's that's everything, right? Human human behavior is is my my thing, it fascinates me, right? So like you as a cop should be you should be innately curious about that. Like and until your curiosity is satisfied, you shouldn't be done. Like uh you you should keep asking the questions, keep looking, keep keep digging at it till you're satisfied, you know what I mean? Like what's what's wrong with this picture, right? And again, you the area that you patrol every day, like that's that's your domain. Like you have a base, you have a baseline for what's right about that environment. Just like and you're responsible for it. And you're and well, yeah, and even more so, you're responsible for it in a way that's different than uh I mean, in my opinion, in my opinion, you know, everybody this this part of being a you know a a man, right? Or like a responsible at all, is like you're you're responsible for your everything that's yours, your home or you know, your family, whatever, like and and you should you should act accordingly, right? Like this is like again, you you know where you spend the most time. Like you have a you have a baseline for what's uh what's out of place and what isn't. So when something sticks out, right, start investigating it. Again, your responsibility is different, like obviously, like you don't have authority or responsibility to go start arresting people, but you know, if somebody's uh messing around your uh messing around where you live or work or whatever, you're you're gonna look into it, right? Like right.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Exactly. Well, and encouraging officers build build confidence through repetition of competence. So getting just short roll call trainings like that can help build officers' confidence, and it's okay to be curious and not just blow calls off. Like well, repetition builds habit, so you have to do the right things.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Otherwise, you know, it's like I I hate that I hate that practice makes perfect. No, like you you yeah, I agree. You develop what you repeat, so keep you know right. And I guess so I I guess that's the thing though. Like I said, just again dig in dig into what you what you see around you and just yeah, keep after it.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Keep after it. So Jake's gonna be providing a ongoing stream of of roll call trainings uh along those topics, getting pretty specific. So uh check us out there, guys. Uh, if you're not a Patreon type, we could definitely use your support to uh to the TF70 Foundation's uh goals and objectives. Uh guys, we are a true nonprofit. We don't take any government money, we only survive uh and execute uh what the guys who really need it uh need through your$20 a month donation. So we very much appreciate that. Um, Jake, do you have anything for the audience before we sign off?

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Uh yeah, I just wanted to add on to the you know what I was uh saying before. Like basically, I just think people shouldn't ignore things that seem wrong, you know? Like people tell you people tend to telegraph their intentions and you really should just believe them. If they're throwing up those red flags, just like stack them, right? Like believe them, yeah, 100% believe them. Like, you know, in an analogy, which it could either be literal or just a metaphor. Like if somebody's standing there loading a gun and they're talking crazy about shooting people.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Yeah, take them seriously.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Are you are you gonna wait for them to start shooting or are you gonna re you know are you gonna act?

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Right. Right. Right. I love that as a as a prompt for people um in just general life. Like you can avoid a lot of crime by doing that.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

It applies anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

I mean, right. If somebody's willing to panhandle in public, they're willing to do almost anything. It's just a good rule of life. So they're and they're more than willing to rob you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

So so I don't know what hap what what happens if you say what happens if you say no, right? Yeah, they they asked you, but what if you say no? Do you think they're gonna not take it from you?

SPEAKER_02 52:26

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Jake, I really appreciate all the work that you've uh put into this, and I know that the foundation supporters appreciate it very much, and uh because they tell me. And uh, we've got probably a whole nother show to do on SRO type topics, school resource officer topics that Jake and I will be doing sometime soon as well. Uh Jake's working that angle pretty hard, uh, trying to help school resource officers to to further build their capacity. Uh, so guys, we'll be talking about that as well. Jake, we really appreciate you um very much uh for what you're doing, not only for law enforcement officers and for their small communities, but trying to to help the law enforcement culture and by proxy help the culture in general uh by kind of re-educating ourselves on things we used to know how to do. And all of a sudden we we just don't anymore. So uh we appreciate your work very much. Guys, you can uh check out more about us uh by hitting the website at tf70.org. Uh and you can support us by either joining the Patreon at slash taskforce 70 foundation or hit us up at tf70.org slash donate. We appreciate your support and we look forward to seeing you again soon.