Justin Yoo on Fencing, Finance & Fighting Through Failure | Direct Elimination Ep. 2

🎙️ EPISODE 2 – JUSTIN YOO INTERVIEW
In this episode of Direct Elimination, Ari Simmons and Stephen Ewart welcome their first official guest: Justin Yoo — one of the most accomplished U.S. fencers of his generation, a standout on Team USA, a Wharton graduate, a finance professional, and someone who has lived a double life balancing high-performance sport with a demanding career.

Justin’s story spans more than medals. From violin to tennis to fencing, from cadet and junior world championships to the senior international stage, and from late nights in Excel to early mornings on strip, Justin has learned what it means to commit fully — and to find joy in the fight.

You’ll hear:

Justin’s origin story in fencing, including his time in the legendary LA “G-Unit” training crew.

His all-in moment — and why, in truth, fencing is a series of recommitments.

The experience of competing at seven World Championships, and why Tbilisi, Georgia stood out.

How he balances a career in finance with training at the New York Athletic Club.

His philosophy on motivation vs. purpose, and why gratitude keeps him grounded.

Why fencing is moving into a new era of creativity and improvisation.

Stories of feeding stray dogs in Georgia, hitting friends in practice, and training with U.S. greats.

This is more than a fencing interview. It’s about balancing ambition, identity, and purpose — and about why someone chooses to keep fighting even when life makes it hard.

⏱  Timestamps

00:00 – Intro & Episode setup
02:00 – Introducing Justin Yoo
04:00 – World Championships in Tbilisi, Georgia
10:00 – Team USA growth and culture
14:00 – Career-best season: beating world champions
20:00 – Rituals, presence, and mindset shifts
25:00 – Justin’s fencing origin story
32:00 – Training in LA with the “G-Unit”
37:00 – NCAA years at UPenn
43:00 – Transition to NYC: finance + fencing
50:00 – Coaching influences and training philosophy
1:00:00 – Rapid Fire: hardest bout, favorite Excel function, all-time favorite fencers
1:03:00 – Closing thoughts & outro

💬 Key Quotes
“Progress isn’t linear — in fencing or in life.”
“If you’re willing to fight as hard as you can, the result doesn’t matter as much.”
“You can either get through it, or you can get better.”
“Gratitude is the most powerful motivator.”

Thank you for listening!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Direct Elimination Podcast. This time we have a great episode for you guys featuring our good friend, Justin Yu. So if you want to learn things about how to juggle playing multiple instruments and doing multiple sports, how to have a job in high finance, how to know which stray dogs are good to feed, and how to stay motivated in the face of extreme difficulty, then this episode's for you. I'm ready to go. You're ready to go? I'm ready. All right. So... Episode two. Episode two. All right. Welcome back. Yeah. Thanks to everyone who listened to the first episode. We got a lot of really positive feedback. Overwhelmingly positive. I was expecting a little- More hate. A little more hate. I thought we'd get more hate. But to kick off the real depth and breadth of this podcast and what it's meant to be, we have one of our really good friends on. And, you know, at the first episode, we talked about ourselves a little bit about, you know, where we come from, why we do what we're doing, our all-in moments, some good memories we had from the sport. And I think... I think that was a great introduction. Yeah. But I get, get an idea of who we are a little more serious than I think either of us are as people. Yeah. Uh, but I think naturally now that we're a little more open, I think it'll, you know, we're, we're, we're getting into some good stuff here, but I think what you were getting into was introducing our very first guest, a very special guest on the podcast. Um, someone who's a very accomplished fencer uh a very accomplished professional a very accomplished student uh accomplished violinist accomplished yeah yeah alleged tennis prodigy yeah um he's just really good at most things he does and someone i would describe as an absolute animal in any aspect of his life um yeah i'm trying to think what else can we say let's rattle off some stuff he's he's one um you know uh youth 10, youth 12, youth 14, 17 and under, 20 and under, and senior level national competitions, which is every major competition that USA Fencing offers nationally. And then he's had quite a distinguished international career as well. He's a mystery man right now. We're going to reveal him soon. But this is really what we want to bring to you guys. I know we talked a lot about ourselves, but this podcast, this experience is a lot more about showcasing the stories and the passion and the lives of the amazing people that we get to have as a part of our community and our network. And if anybody's got some good stories, it's our guest right here. Oh, yeah, absolutely. No pressure. No pressure. You got to have some good stories today. So without further ado, we'd like to introduce to you guys a most recently, you know, amongst many other Most recently, a 2025 Team USA World Championship team member and our teammate at the New York Athletic Club, Justin Yu. Justin Yu. The reveal. Move it a little closer to your feet. Product placement. I'm going to let him get his ears on. He's just got to get the ears on. Can you hear yourself? Get a little closer to the mic. Can you hear me? Let's just twist it more towards your face. Get it even closer. I don't want it in there. So Um... You know, as our first official guest on this show, we just want to, you know, chat a little bit about you and your life. And before we get into the real nitty gritty, you're recently coming back from the 2025 Senior World Championships in Tbilisi, Georgia. Correct or incorrect? Yeah, so I just got back. I got back about like two weeks ago. Yeah, it was a good experience. an incredible place. Tell us about it. Plenty of people got to see it. The Fencing Federation released a new platform to watch fencing. FencingTV.com, which was cool for us, but then you guys also seem to have a pretty cool experience. You've been to many world championships. This was, if I'm not mistaken, your seventh world championships or sixth? I went to Plovdiv twice. Tashkent, Borgias, France, Cairo, and now Georgia. Georgia is definitely my favorite one. Tell us about it. Tell us what stood out about this world. Tell us about Tbilisi. Tell us about the experience you had from the fencing and just the presentation. All three of us here for context have been to Tbilisi before. It's like the oldest Catholic and Jewish state. It's weird. There's all these beautiful old buildings, and then there's the most modern McDonald's right next to it. And it's delicious. I don't know what they do there, but it's great. Food's really good. I brought my girlfriend, Hannah, and we ate countless skin collies. Yeah, it was cool. I... we i hannah just loves like these like stray animals and there's like a ton of stray dogs there so we would like steal hot dogs from like the breakfast and go feed stray animals don't the dogs are if i remember correctly they they tag the dogs that are vaccinated with this yellow tag on their ears so that you know which ones are safe to pet and which ones you should not know they they tag them to show that they've been like spayed or something okay okay so you shouldn't touch anything what are you supposed to do with that information so i have rabies if you see two of them like on top of each other hey stop that we don't need more uh anyways um yeah so tell us about like how this yeah how this experience was for you you know the result was i know not something that you were looking for but in general this this will really get us into the meat and potatoes of this podcast and and you know talking about just growth dealing with challenges dealing with success you know because from a team perspective it was the best U S team result at a world championship since 2019, maybe even 2018. Um, uh, we can fact check that, but I believe 2019, which is six years ago. So, um, that that's looking up and individually, I know that there was more on the table, uh, that you, you did want. So just, you know, let's start there and let's just dive into it. Sure. I mean, I think from a team perspective, like this team has been like, we really grew this season. Like I think we faced a lot of like growing we faced a lot of growing pains where like we're trying to shuffle the positions and see like who fit where I think like there's always I mean there's always like room to grow and there's always like things to get better at but I think I think Seth Kelsey our national coach has done a really good job of like trying to figure out like what like where someone's comfortable where someone's uncomfortable and like trying to like figure out the matchups I remember at the beginning of the season he didn't want to like put any subs in but he change that because I think it's just like it's hard to I guess like one thing that I forgot about from like for team bouts is that fencing all three bouts is like no joke like you gotta like really you gotta really grind and so like I think at least I don't I don't have like the endurance defense like that I usually get put into the third position I don't have the endurance defense that third position like the entire day I could probably do like one or two bouts but if you want to like run at like the french team for like nine minutes like there's no way i can like catch my breath in between so yeah i think but i think from like i'm really happy with the growth we've had yeah um sam oleg and tristan mad chillers tristan sapari oleg nish and sam emmerich they're cool justin's team usa world championship team members and some of the other representatives of the red white and blue overseas i think um i think the team culture has gone really good yeah i think like Like the past, like in like 2022 to 2024, I got a little bleak, but I think Ari. I think bleak is a good choice of words there. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't the most fun, but we were. But I think like the groundwork, like even Ari put in with like our culture, it was like really actually helped. I was a little skeptical about it at first. I thought it was a little silly, but hey, it works. And yeah, you can't knock it. No, it's true. I do. I mean, Steven can obviously opine on this, but having a good contingent of us in New York City working together and not just knowing each other, but seeing each other day in day out, talking to each other about what's going well, what's not going well, as well as just the tournament competition culture of supporting each other and growing together and not being so closed off and having this be a more open workspace has really helped because it's like a rising tide raises all And we've really seen that this year. And you've been a huge part of that. I mean, Justin just is coming off, for those listening, he's coming off a career best year, right? He had not the best year nationally. Oh, yeah. I mean, you still had some okay results relative to what you're looking for. He beat me. Yeah, he beat Steven, which is not easy, everyone. And internationally, you had some of the best results of your life. You got a B. two world champions really a team an individual world champion and they were two finalists at the world championships and it was really good but yeah I was happy with the people I beat this year and I feel like even the bouts I lost especially towards like the beginning and middle of the season were very close anyways with like really hard people yeah absolutely again I mean I was gonna say like progress isn't linear though so like I feel like I fenced like not great towards the end of the season and it's just for like a variety of factors I think like just because you fence well like one part of the season doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna fence well the next or even like yeah It kind of sucks, but that's how it goes. Yeah. I got a question that we didn't plan on, but that I'm curious about, and I'm sure other people will, you know, if they're listening to this for fencing advice or how to improve their game. You're at the wrong place. How do you feel, like, what do you think allowed you when the season was going well, when you had that career best result, what do you think changed either? Was it something in training, mental? spiritual, whatever that allowed you to approach those incredibly difficult bouts back to back. Essentially. I think they were back to back. Um, like you're talking about Monte Koch and David, David Rowland. Yeah. Yeah. Um, cause I think a lot of people, you know, they'll inevitably, as they start to progress in their career, they'll go up against very accomplished opponents and you went up against two of the most accomplished opponents out there available in the game right now. how did you sort of overcome that did you have any expectation what what do you think allowed you to do that i honestly wish i could tell you like i wish i could be like spiritually i was aligned with jupiter or something that would be cool but i think it really just came down to like i think in the beginning in middle and like towards a little bit towards the end of the season i was more willing to like just fucking fight people like as hard as i could and i think that That's kind of what it is. If you're just willing to give yourself into the fight and just accept that it's going to be really difficult and you might not win and it's fine, I think you've done better. But I think if you're like, fuck, I need these points. I keep saying fuck. This is marked as explicit content. Not made for children unless your parents allow. Okay. Well, I guess so. We could also bleep it out if all right well i guess like if you're just like looking at these points and you're like fuck i need these points i need like this result um like if i get this amount of points then i'm safe for the team then then it gets a little screwy i think like you gotta like cut at least in my opinion i need to disconnect myself from that and it's a work in progress. Like many things are advancing. So, so I have a, I have a funny story if you'll allow, um, to go off and granted to go off of what Justin said. Um, this was in maybe 2013 or 2014. Um, I don't know. I might've told you this before, but you know, um, there was a pre summer nationals summer camp. It had to have been in 2014. Um, and it was coming a few months after Justin and had a historic result, first men's EPS to medal in cadet and junior worlds, which was- In the same world championships. In the same world championships, sorry. So Justin comes off of that result and he's at this summer camp at Los Angeles International Fencing Center, which we'll get into your origins next. Client origin story. And I was at this camp and at the lunch break, they had a little panel with the world championship team members who were there at this camp. And, you know, Q&A. Who was that? Justin Yu, Kasha Nixon. Charlie Horowitz. And Charlie. Charlie Horowitz. And so Justin, they asked Justin, you know, oh, what did you do to prepare for your bouts? And Justin goes, do you want to tell them what you said? I think I told them I went outside before every bout, took my socks off and connected with nature and like stood in the grass. I wouldn't. believe that knowing you knowing you did you actually do that I did do that okay where where has that just been my whole life that's amazing I mean you you did for the record fence amazingly that world championships but I don't think you can really attribute it to yeah like sandy socks no you were just feeling yourself that you were focused I but he told he tells us this and I went and I had my first, uh, international event that I participated in a few months later. And I went like, what do I need to like do well at this? And so I went outside and there was no grass. And so I put my, and it's like freezing out and I couldn't take my socks off. So I put my hand on a tree and I stood there. I was like, Justin, this is what Justin did. This is what I need to do. And then, uh, I like, I did well. So maybe there's something to it. Um, but then I think years later, I, Did you really do that? Because years later you told me you're like, oh, I made that shit up. No, I did do that. But I remember talking to Jake Reynos. Shout out, Jake. And I was like, I don't know what to say to these kids. Like, this is kind of weird. And I want to go get Indian food with you guys. And they're like, no, you got to say like the most ridiculous thing you can think of and see how many kids will actually do that. So at least one, at least one. Well, OK, so I think the deep, the under underlying root of whatever you're saying there is. Don't listen to Justin. I mean, it was, you were present. Like what that is, is you were being present and you were being in the moment. And that's something that, that was, if you did it ritually throughout that competition, it doesn't have to be something that you do all the time, but it's something that was keeping you present in that moment. And I think that's something that relates back to what you were just saying with the Vancouver world cup, the, where you beat two of the best fencers on the circuit, you were just very present that day. Yeah, I agree with that. Acknowledging that you need to fight and that it's going to be hard and regardless and you might lose and all of those things. That's a very present thing to do and to just focus on the fight, to focus on the next touch. Whatever it is that you're focusing on, it's about being present. And that's something that most people, I believe, would agree with regardless of what their rituals or focus you know, methods are and their best results come when they're at the most present, which kind of segues us perfectly into the plan for today's episode, which is starting, starting out with, you know, something Steven and I talked about on the first episode was our all in moments, right? With, with fencing and, and when, when was our moment individually with that? We, we felt that this, this, This is the time where I choose fencing and I want to be the best version of myself. I want to do this for real. And that is a moment of presence where you're really present and you're deciding that this is it. And some people obviously, you know, maybe don't have the choice to buy in. They're forced into it and then all of a sudden they're just down this path. But some people, you know, also have the choice to buy in. And we're wondering and everyone's wondering what What was your all in moment for fencing? If you can remember, if you have one, and it might, it could be a recurring thing. I think I gave a kind of recurring answer of like, there are multiple moments. But you know, what is, if you can remember a moment for you that you decided, you know, this is, this is what I want to do, because all of us are out here, we're working full time jobs, we're training our butts off to be the best versions of ourselves. on the strip off the strip but but we've chosen it this is it this is a this is our passion okay well i guess cue the inspirational music for later edit yeah but there there was an interview with novak djokovic um and i think 2018 and he said the only reason why i can play so well at this high level all the time is because i like hitting the ball and i think that's like a very And then the interviewer asked him also, like, so, like, do other people like hitting the ball? And he said, sometimes I see that they don't. They have the wrong motivation, but I don't judge. I think... One thing for me that I've realized is that I've, it resonates with me because I think the only reason why I'm doing this is because I like fencing like for each point. So I don't know if I can really pinpoint like an exact moment where I can tell you like, oh, like this is the moment where I told myself like, oh, I should just do this all in. I think there's going to be like a lot of like ups and downs in anyone's career. And as long as you bring it back to, I'm doing this because I enjoy fencing, it should be fine. It's not a direct answer. It absolutely checks out just knowing you and having watched you since I was nine years old in this sport. You've always been a very talented fencer, but just very fighting for every point and very physically capable, hitting very, very nice touches. Great technique, but with that great technique comes a certain level of discipline right and ability and you don't get that ability like naturally right there are some people who naturally talented you know you can't teach this stuff just like good at fencing and Justin obviously has some talent but like when you watch him you go that's like that's made like you made that and from from as long as forged from the the very first time like I ever saw you fencing um so I think that that checks out from the start. If you enjoy fighting for this and doing this, then you can do it at a very high level from the beginning. I totally agree. You just enjoy hitting us in the balls. Oh yeah. That's a funny. There was one month in LA. It was longer than a month. Every practice I got hit in the balls. It was. All right. What made you want to keep coming back to fencing? Getting hit in the ball. Every time I was like, every practice I was like, okay, today it's not going to happen. And sure enough, I was fencing Steven. And then someone on the strip next to us hit me in the balls. I was about to say, Steven's not that strong. I had I've hit him on the balls plenty of times, man. Yeah, actually. It was Addy Tine Sandler. He's very strong. Ouch. Without fail. That was crazy. I really considered getting a cup, but then it stopped and I was like, maybe I'm safe. And then I got hit in the balls again. So should we talk about why most fencers don't wear cups? What's your answer? Why don't you wear a cup? I don't know. I feel like it doesn't happen often enough to warrant it. And when it does happen, it hurts. very much, but it doesn't hurt enough. It doesn't hurt enough. It doesn't hurt for long enough. It doesn't feel like a lasting repercussion. Does the room agree with that sentiment? I agree with that sentiment. I agree with it too, but I think there's also a laziness aspect to it. 100%. I can't imagine doing that every single practice because if you do it only once at tournaments, it's like a new... variable you added in for yourself the

SPEAKER_01 22:51

chafing

SPEAKER_00 22:52

yeah like my god so like you have to practice with it there's no way i'm hooking that up yeah every practice but i respect anyone who does i absolutely better decisions much better decision but then do you draw the line at shin guards um you know honestly i would i'm a couple scars away from putting on a shin guard you're weak i don't care honestly i think it like could like nullify some touches yeah my word chest protector too honestly don't tempt me i'm slimy as is like my ad did the lord i think you'd have to really research shin guards because i think it might help some touches all right oh you might no i'm saying like it like if someone hits you yeah yeah i'm saying i'm saying the opposite i think you think depending on the shin guard it might absorb some touches i guess if you like have like a shin guard with like i know i've seen some with like some grooves and like holes in it you gotta avoid those yeah i mean if you get like a pure plastic one can make should we make our own shin guards we're gonna craft a shin guard oh my god next business idea um so yeah i think that's a it's a good answer for the all-in moment i think that's that's really awesome i hadn't heard that quote before and i definitely resonate with that you know amongst everything that we've said the the game is is really fun yeah it's it's just you know some people fall in love with basketball some people fall in love with chess and like we fell in love with fencing and And I have seen that love from you for many years. I heard about Justin before I'd ever met you. We were 12 years old. Anton Piskovatska came back.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Another Anton

SPEAKER_00 24:35

shot. Yeah, of course. Love Anton. He's an OG. He came back from an April tournament in what must have been 2008. And he told me I had never been to a real NAC or a National North American Cup, which which is like the largest form of a national competition that we have available in USA Fencing. Then he told me about the competitors in the 12-year-old age group. And one of them was Alexander El-Deeb. Oh, yeah. Legend. And then he told me about Justin Yoo. And I was just hearing about this legendary, you know... Small Korean boy. Small Korean boy who just... Hits like a truck. He hits like a truck. He's been training like... Like, freaking, you know, I don't even know, just a soldier from the age of 10. And then I got a FENCU in 2008 in my first national tournament and some seating around in the pools. And, yeah. It was unlike anything I'd ever experienced. I thought you won that one. I did. That was the last, uh, that was the last time I beat Justin at a knack and we fenced many times. Um, and we should talk about that in a bit, but, um, maybe let's touch really quick on, cause we've alluded to it, but tell us how you started. Tell us about the training process. How'd you find fencing? Yeah. Like tell us about your life. Who are you? Um, I had just moved from Korea. I I just moved from Korea to LA. How old were you? I was six years old. And then a year later, my mom was trying to find me and my brother hobbies. So I started playing tennis. I played really well. I was ranked pretty highly in like youth tennis. And then I like... Somehow my mom wants to go shopping at the strip mall and she, uh, I think I was just like a very annoying, like toddler or like young, I don't know, young man, young boy. Um, and she made me go watch this fencing demonstration, uh, that was just like happening outside of the strip mall. So then the, uh, the person running the strip mall said, Oh, Gogo Demercian, who just coached the Beijing Olympic team, or was it Athens? I don't remember. Um, when you were It must have been Athens. I think it was Athens. You were 7-0-4. Don't ask me how I know. He's coaching at this fencing club down the street, so then she got me into it. For a while, I was playing tennis and fencing. I was also playing golf, but I hated golf so much. I also was doing violin and school. Now that I'm saying this out loud, that was a lot of stuff. I think you've balanced the most throughout all of our lives and I think one of the things I want to talk about throughout this podcast is what you've learned from that but continue and then I was also playing piano and Starcraft that wasn't until later but I so then I think actually it kind of helped me that I was playing all these sports because I think it like kind of shapes like like I don't think I would have been athletic if I like didn't do all these sports to begin with. Um, but yeah, then eventually I think when I was 13 or 14, I like chose to go all in on fencing and then somehow violin tagged along until I was 16 or 17, much to my like horror. I hate, I hated playing violin too. And I, okay. So back to the fencing, I like went, I trained with Nana Demercian who was Gago's sister until I was was 12 and then I got like pushed off to Gago and his dad and I actually really have to like credit Gago's dad Edward Demurchin that's from Armenia those lessons I had with him were like the most insane like batshit crazy lessons I've ever taken in my life where it was like I had to do like so much stuff with my hand while running up and down the strip for like 30-40 minutes and I think that actually really helped me like like have the cardio and have the capacity to like fence the way I do today even like it really helps so for context Edward is a gangsta yeah he's this old Armenian man he must be in his 90s now I we should we should check in I really should I should call yeah he so Edward like I guess when I was seven he was in his like 70s he was like doing pull-ups and like he would do this stretch against this wall where his like legs would go into like almost like a full split. There's like a little retaining wall about, I don't know, yay high. Four feet, five feet? Yeah, four feet definitely. Because I would go to LAFC sometimes and this is years later, 80s, 70s, 80s, whatever. After giving all these lessons all night and doing his workouts, he'd go over, throw his leg up on the retaining wall and lean into it and almost a full split every time without fail and truly a testament to what you want to be. How many years do you think he's lived in the US? Probably a little shorter than Gago. I think Gago came first. Probably like 30-ish. 20-something to 30 years. Roughly how many English words do you think he knows? He only knows yes. He only knows good or no good. But seriously, he was a foundational character in your development. Especially in that formative years. He would also bench press two plates or something. when he was like 70. It was really nuts. But Gago, I guess like a part of also my formative years where like I had like a really good training group with me. Like people, like kids who like also wanted to achieve great things in fencing. The G unit. Yeah, that's what we call ourselves. Tell us about the G unit. It was Jake Reynos, Porter Hesselgrave, and Charlie Horowitz. Jake and Porter were a year older than me. Charlie was a year younger than me. So Charlie was kind of the younger brother of the group. And I think that actually helped him as a fencer too because he didn't have the same physical gifts as me, Jake, and Porter. So he had to learn how to be real squirrely with it. And very smart. And very smart, but also really squirrely. I hope you're listening to this, Charlie. And we really pushed each other. But I think Gago also was... I have a theory and I've shared this with many people that Gago saw Rocky one time and said, we need to train just like that. So we started doing clean and jerks surgery. I don't think we did beach runs, but that was like the next best things, the stairs. We were doing this exercise where like we had this bar and we had to like thrust it like back and forth, like while standing up. It was really weird. But I saw like clips of a training montage that Rocky did in high school and it looked very similar to what we were doing. I, yeah. And at some point, like I think Jake was the first one to like really break out. And while we were, while he was 13 or 14, he like made like a top 12 in juniors. I think that really- I think he made a top eight. No, I made the top eight, like the tournament after. And we just started like really like going head to head with the results. And I think that like having that competition as like at a young age, like really like, I think it just prepares you for like all sorts of life.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Yeah, it was cool. Like at one point- porter and jake or like one two and three at a knack or something or one three and three yeah so yeah pretty amazing and um i remember fencing against you guys growing up you know we're a little bit older than steven here all right the young buck he's even younger than charlie this younger brother that we talked about but um steven ended up being a legend in his own way as we got older but um i remember facing the g unit and you guys and with the wins and the losses you guys were probably the toughest fighters that I ever faced. And I mean, it's really, it, it shaped all of us, right? Like we, we push each other and watching you guys push each other was inspiring to us in Texas. Uh, and we had our own version of the G unit. We just call ourselves Lions Fencing Academy one or something, but, uh, but we, I mean, the Alliance one name still holds some weight and, uh, The G unit's gone. you know which we're never going to be the same we realize like okay we can't thrust the bar while standing like this but and running on the beach yeah we have to use whatever leverage we have and improve at that so that was a really fun era I think of fencing where we fenced you guys a lot individually and we fenced a couple times in teams and had some pretty epic matches we fenced a match at like 2am oh yeah the US fencing with the worst run tournament ever that was pretty bad they started did a we must have had like 70 something or 80 they started this they started a junior team event of yeah 70 teams at 1 p.m. is that why I remember this because I was leaving at this summer nationals I was leaving dinner and going back to my hotel and saw Charlie walking down the street with his fencing bag you're like don't you have the finals right now like Charlie home yeah and he was like nope got could at tomorrow. Yeah. They sent me to go to bed. I guess they'll be okay. That's why you guys lost the finals. You needed some more squirrely energy. We did need squirrely energy. No, but, um, truly that, I mean, that that's where you ended, you know, you started your career. Then from there you went to UPenn and then you spent another year in LA and then you came to New York where we're all training now. So I think, um, One of the things that I want to touch on, and Stephen and I want to touch on, is how that experience has been different for you. Training in LA at a club as a child and then a teenager, and then the NCAA fencing experience at an elite institution. Justin graduated from Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. And then training as an adult in a totally different club environment at the new york athletic club and you know what I guess tell us about that. What have you learned from one that you've taken to another or what are the differences or similarities or just anything you really want to share about that experience? Because you've experienced three very different forms of training and you're continuing to do it at a high level. What are your thoughts? I think the program at Penn is sound. I think it works. But I do think like... One of the issues I was finding was Jake was kind of on his way out of competitive fencing towards the end of his school year. Jean B. Garza was just not even competitively fencing. He was just doing NCAAs. And I think as much as I love those guys, and we also did very well at a lot of college tournaments, I think it was hard for me in that if you're the only one doing even Junior World Cups, or and then later on senior world cups it's kind of like what am i really doing and also like with school and like with like just applying for jobs trying to like get good grades it becomes hard um and so like i guess the main difference I had with, from LFC and Penn was just, I didn't have like the G unit, like energy vibe. I don't know if that's the right word. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, structure. I think honestly, I think structure, the structure was fine. Like I think like, I mean, there was, there was like a conditioning program. Slava Danilov is a great coach. He was a great fencer. I just think it's like, you have so many other things. After you get out of high school, like you're basically like, I feel like all three of us at one point in high school felt like professional athletes. Absolutely. Yeah. Training to go. Like I said it on the last podcast, I didn't go to Notre Dame to play school. I thought I was going pro. At one point, at one point in high school, I don't know how we did this. Um, We convinced my school to like, let me prepare for worlds better. Like I'm going to take half days for a couple of weeks. Dude, I did that for a whole year. That's great. My senior year, I literally got out of school at 1130 AM and went straight to Alliance Fencing Academy every single day because I'd taken all the classes that I needed to graduate and some, I took like a lot of credits and I would literally just train. That's why I made senior world team when we were in high school. It's because every single day I would get out of school Go take a lesson. Do conditioning. Take a break. Eat some Whataburger or something nasty. And then go and do a whole other practice. And at that point in our lives, you have nothing else you really care about. You also have the capacity to do it. Your recovery is much better. Your hormones. You just recently hit puberty and the desire is there. Your bones are made of rubber. Yeah, you're not jaded. Everything is free. Everything is free. We made thank you to all of our parents this is a unanimous shout out to our parents and we'll take you know I think Stephen and I may or may not have shouted out our parents last episode shout out to our parents and shout out to you anyways back to you Justin I don't even know what we're talking about we're talking about just the differences then from UPenn you went to New York nothing's free now everything costs way too much not only do you have to pay but it costs way more because you're in new york city and but but you still choose to do it and that's something we want to highlight here like the passion like you're doing this not just because you you love hitting the ball but because you this is something that you've chosen for yourself as something that defines your experience yeah you could you could scratch the itch a couple times a week go hit the ball and then that could be it you know You could go experience all that New York and life has to offer. There is a lot you miss out in New York, but I've realized that... There's always, like, after you're done fencing and after everything's, like, the dust has settled, you can, like, still do life if you hadn't fenced, too, like, afterwards. It's not, like, you just can't do the opposite where you do life now and then decide to, like, get back into fencing, like, afterwards. Well, you can. You just can't compete at Senior World Cups or go to the Olympics, most likely. Most likely. I would be very impressed if you could. Unless you're an absolute legend. Yeah. Like, more than anyone knows. Yeah. One punch man type of stuff. So that it would be incredible if you could do that. But I guess like one thing I've also found in New York is kind of the same vibe I've had from LFC when I was younger, where I have like you guys and plus like, I don't know, three, four other guys. I at least do I name him? I don't know. You can name some of them. Why not? Why not? Teddy Lombardo, James Call, Ryan Griffiths, Tristan Sapari, Sam Emmerich. God, The list just goes on and on. Yeah. There are plenty of people training. Ian Sanders is training full-time. Sean Strong might be coming here. Yeah. Sean Strong is moving here. That's just at New York Athletic Club. And then if you want other bouting, you got people elsewhere. And then you have people who are training a little more casually as well. And they're still strong bouts. Jake Reynos. Yeah. Jake Reynos. Gabe. Gabe Cano. You also have really strong teenagers that come in and want to fence with us. The Bizrodnav twins. The B twins. Yeah. of people like Daniil Mazur Ukrainian yeah it's like I feel like every time I look at like a NAC podium there's at least like three of us like on there yeah and it's really nuts yeah no it's great it's really strong so has that been motivating for you or I think so I think it's like I think it's like more fun to like actually fence now because it's like instead of fencing people in college who like if you win like great because they're like not like competitively fencing and they're what take like one lesson a week and like whatever like they have like actual life stuff to do but like here it's like we're all competing like with we're all like trying to actually like kill each other like there have been bouts I've had some both of you or I think I've tried to kill you like and you didn't I think you killed me I experienced at least multiple forms of death or ego death I've seen scourge maybe not Anywho. Plus, I've been taking lessons with Soren now. Who's Soren? Tell us about you. That's the name you drop in? Yeah. He's Steven's coach as well. Shout out, Soren. Tell us about him. He's been very instrumental. Who is he? You mentioned Seth Kelsey earlier. Soren is also an American legend. He was up there with Seth. He was on the same team as Seth. That won the world championships. in 2012 and got silver in 2011 2010 was it? oh yeah that was in Paris oh you're uh the encyclopedia has opined has weighed in anyways I think Soren also got top 8 at the Olympics in like 2004 2004 okay I really should know that. I'm sorry, Soren. No, Soren, he still loves you. Soren, if you ever listen to this, Justin knows. But I think he's been really instrumental in keeping fencing fresh. I think what I've realized is a lot of coaches have, even just throughout my life, with the exception of Kay, who's also a fencing legend in Korea, during a time where Korean fencing was extremely dominant, Kim Won Jin. Kim Won Jin. Or Won Jin Kim. Probably the hardest bout I've ever fenced in my entire life was against K. He beat me 15-1 or something right before I went to world championships where I got those medals. Literally two days before. It was just a preview of the Yamada final. It was so nuts too because from the get-go, he just did not bounce and he was only crab walking at me. At one point, he stopped pommeling his French group and just choked up and then like was still hitting the same touches anyways it was really crazy I just wanted you to know you had room to grow and then but I get back to my point like a lot of these I think a lot of coaches like the fencing I guess fencing lessons get a little stale where it's like faint disengage lunge and you do this preparation to get this reaction you do like X to get Y and it goes over and over again and you can like do these lessons eventually you can kind of do these lessons without really like thinking about it and like it becomes like very monotonous not fresh it's not like you don't get any like new ideas about what you're supposed to like try and like an actual practice about because then you're just practicing the same preparations to get the same reaction if you don't get that reaction then what is your opponent doing or something and it gets real funky but I think with Soren and with Kay in the past um I think, like, having, like, a more open view of, like, what your opponent could do and, like, having, like... like a positive mindset that if you do the right steps and control your opponent in the right way then there's the probability the cloud of probability of you getting a point becomes like higher closer to like 100 never will be 100 but it gets closer to it so it it leaves a lot of room for like improvisation a lot of room for like ideas i've had um like and some of the ideas get real funky and ridiculous like there's an idea i talked to steven about which I have yet to try. And one day I really want to. You better air this out. I will because it's hilarious. Didn't I do it to you? I don't know. I think I did this to you a couple weeks ago. Did you get the point? Yeah. Is it the drive-by? Yeah. I don't think it's the drive-by. Similar. Air it out. Let's say you're just fencing your opponent. You're feeling him out. And then all of a sudden you just drop all pretenses of being fencing on guard, you're just not fencing anymore. You sprint at your opponent and whatever reaction your opponent gives you, whether it's a parry or counterattack, you just deal with it. Sort of. Which is hilarious, though, if you think about it, because why are we in this fucking on guard sometimes? I think especially as fencing has developed and progressed, we're approaching this point of extreme creativity in the sport that doesn't relate rely as much on technique. Like maybe at the end of the day, you do need to have technique to hit, right? But it's relying a lot more on this timing, this tricking your opponent into just a situation where they are screwed and you are initiating. And you're seeing a lot more squirrely looking fencers. No, no, but seriously, it's really unique because there's been, you know, for the last probably 20 years, a huge push towards really good technique and this perfect on guard and moving in this longer than that no no longer sure but I'm just saying like we're really it's becoming more and more athletic and now we've reached a point where it's just like how well can you hit the other guy and it's making it way more exciting in my opinion way faster and way more like a real fight right like in boxing or not just boxing right? Like in a street fight, you don't care about technique. I mean, some people do and it helps and some people don't and it helps. And that's kind of this thing that you're touching on, right? This, this like moment of, you know, I just need to trick you or make you react to me and be in charge of the situation and commit and hit you regardless of what, if I'm in a perfect fencing, you know, stance, or if I'm just hitting you, who cares? I also do think since this is my last push for an Olympics, I want to just develop the most like janky points. So I'm definitely going to like pull them out. I'm just going to pull them out soon. One day there's going to be a beautiful highlight reel of all these crazy Justin U moments. Where I'm just like sprutting at them. Arms in the air. Yeah, why not, dude? You got a Luigi dive side B at that. I feel like I've like fed so long with like trying to like have good technique. Well, I get to have three years of me just doing whatever I want. So I'm really going to embrace it soon. Pablo Picasso was an amazing, amazing painter in the conventional sense before he deviated and started experimenting with Cubism. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Pablo Picasso has a collection of paintings. Before he'd gone to weird squares. Yeah, they're just like the traditional, oh, wow, that's a beautiful depiction of a woman looking out of a window or something. like that you know don't quote me on it I don't know if he has one of those but you know what I mean and then you know he started diving into cubism and and you know abstracting from what we believed was art and starting to try and capture the essence of what it is you're looking at and I think that's what you're touching on like what is the essence of fencing the essence of fencing is hitting your opponent before they hate you with with a sword with an epi but really it's it's, it's the essence is just like, can I hit you before you hit me? Yeah. And really, I can't wait to see this is what I'm saying. I'm excited. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I've been trying to like brainstorm. I won't get too far. I mean, you can't, this is your platform. Everyone, everyone, every listener, every, we had like 150. Or what if this is the mind game for whoever listens, they're going to like expect me. You're just going to do a perfect. Yeah. It's GG's either way. But yeah, I think that's great. I know I've been the one rattling off the questions. Is that cool? Stephen and I are on the same Google Doc. No, we're going to redo this whole thing. But I'm going to ask some of the questions you asked. Stephen and I wrote this together. Um... I have a question for you, and you already answered this. You answered your all-in moment was actually the answer to the question, why do you do it, right? So I'm not going to ask you why do you do it or what was your all-in moment, but we're going to ask you a different thing. And what or who inspires you to keep going? There are many hard moments in this sport, and love of the game is one answer that you can give, and that's one answer. aspect of it, but there's so much more that encompasses what we do and love is not always enough. Like you talked about this one time with me and I believe Steven was there too. You talked about how motivation is a waning thing, right? That was my line. Oh, okay. Steven said that and you look just like Justin, so I thought he said it. But what keeps you inspired and And how do you stay motivated? Like you've been successful on the U S stage and even on the world stage for so long, your, your world championships result that we talked about this, this double medal was 11 years ago. You know, why, what keeps you motivated? Obviously the love of the game is one thing, but, but really what do you draw on when, when you're down? What do you draw on when you're up? You know, tell us. I think for a while, at least, since I've moved to New York and actually become an adult, I think one thing that really kept me going for a bit was just that spite for other people. Where I could work this full-time finance job and fence well. I was in kind of a dark place where I was just like... I went through something I went through something very traumatic. And then after that, I was... a very spiteful, angry person. And so for a while there, I was like, I'm going to beat this person and I'm going to go work at my office job. And which is silly to say out loud because, but like, I guess when you're like kind of in the dumps, like it doesn't sound so silly and actually is kind of motivating, which I don't recommend, but it works, but I wouldn't recommend it. But then I realized like, again, it's, that's like such a silly, stupid like thing to think about for a while but and it doesn't last but one thing I again like I just I like fencing and that's why I keep doing it but I feel like I owe it to myself to like try to like take this to the finish line I guess that's what motivates me but Yeah. I think there's always going to be really dark moments for people. And I think one thing to remember is we're all human. And I think however you deal with it, just try to remember there's always going to be an end to that darkness. And there's always going to be ups and downs. And however motivated you are isn't necessarily linear. And it isn't necessarily correlated to how well you do, too. And so it's confusing, too. I think as long as one thing I like now do is I try to remember how grateful I am that I can actually do both of these things. I think gratefulness is just a very powerful motivator and tool. So yeah, it's pretty good. I got it.

UNKNOWN 55:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Really making me think about my life here. Yeah. Sorry, I'm going to need a minute. All right. With that in mind, you know, I guess Steve and I talked a lot about these types of things last time. And I... We've watched you ebb and flow through those hard moments and challenges. And throughout that, you've maintained this image, not just image, but truly consistent flow of being the hardest worker that we know. And All in all, we're not asking exactly that. Why do you do that? How do you do that? Some people have it in them to work as hard as you do. Some people don't. But how has fencing, one of the things we haven't talked about on this episode is your professional career. How has fencing helped or hurt or both your professional career? You work in finance and that's a really broad term, but you you know, if you're comfortable, share with us just how, how you, you've utilized it, leveraged it or learn from it in your work or vice versa. I think since I've been, well, I, I kind of got my ass kicked at work, like for the first couple of years. And I think it's like, you need to become at least, I'm not sure how many of our listeners of your listeners like work in finance, but it's a very like detail. Yeah. It's a very detail oriented like job. And I'm sure a lot of jobs are like that. Um, but especially as I was handling investor requests, it like every like number on this, like 10 bytes or like the six cells, the excels like cells would go from like columns a to like a Y and then it would go row from like one to like, I don't know, 150. So there were, you do the math on how many cells there were and each one of those had to be correct. And even though if I had one wrong and everything else was right, that one wrong is what people remember. And if it gets caught, then you're fucked. Capital F, you're fucked. And I think having that awareness of being detail-oriented really helped me get better at fencing because it really helped me... I think to be that detail-oriented, you need to have a process and you need to be aware. You need to know how to be aware of a lot of, I guess... I hate using the word details so many times, but that is what work helped me with fencing. So I think, for example, I think it really helped me with my distance where I now am very comfortable being a lot more aware of where my opponent is at all times. And I don't get mentally tired because work has trained me to work at midnight, burning the midnight oil on this Excel sheet. And what's nine minutes of like fencing compared to doing that? On the flip side. Yeah. On the flip side. I think fencing has like, even, I'm not sure like how much fencing has like helped like with my job, but one thing I've like just balanced it, having to balance all these things with like fencing work. And when I was younger, like violin, piano, golf, and tennis, and God knows what else. I think one thing I realized is like time, management is sort of irrelevant if you can't actually focus on the task at hand. So one thing I've tried to get good at, and I feel like I've gone pretty good at it, is if I'm working, then I'm working 100%. If I need to get this task done at work, then it's only about this task. But when I leave work and then when I go fence, sometimes I'll check my email at fencing between bouts, but it's only about about I'm fencing so it goes back to being present yeah that that is what that is it's just being present in the moment 100% what you're doing is what you're doing yeah and that's I feel like those those two things have really helped me but again like I wouldn't recommend working if the job my job while fencing it has like negatives as well where like I feel stressed if I like leave the office too early and everyone's still there or like I need to work after practice and I'm just tired and I barely slept for like the last week and it just goes it's there are like pros and cons to like doing both but at the same time I mean I think it'll hopefully make me a better I don't know have me more well equipped in the future so Yeah. I don't know. Good stuff. Yeah. I, again, it sucks, but it's worth it. Yeah. So to close out this episode, Stephen and I are going to rapid fire some questions at you. Let's go. Who's your name two fencers all time, your favorites? Go. Just off the top of your head. No reasoning. Okay. Jung Jin Sun and Mike Reynos. Oh, Michael Reynos. Deep cut. I like that. Off the top of your head, who's the hardest bout you've ever fenced? Kim. Kim Won Jin. All right. Hardest bout in competition. In competition?

UNKNOWN 1:01:06

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

I feel like there have been so many. I think Soren Thompson. I fenced him in Heidenheim and lost 15-3. Tough. And he just was like, he was doing this thing where he would like salute, but instead of like, you know, having your blade up, he would put the point in my face, like after we tested bell guards each time, and his point would be like right here. And it was insane. You were like, please coach me. Favorite fencing, or city you've been to for fencing? Oh, Taipei Taiwan oh that's a pretty good one alright how many times will you beat Ari Simmons in a competition before he finally beats you oh god I feel like it's been so close the last like I don't know five years it's been longer than five years no but like every like bout we've had in the last five years has been closer and closer um you don't have to answer that yeah alright Steven favorite excel function uh Some product. All right. All right. That's pretty good. And name someone else that you think we should have on this podcast. All of our, like, contemporaries are, like, degenerates. Edward Demirci. Like, realistically? Or, like... Just whoever. Just name anyone, man. Name... I feel like the people who would be good at this podcast... aren't available. Name one. Okay. This is off the top of your head. All right. Teddy Lombardo. All right. Good job, guys. Well, Justin, thank you very much for taking the time out of your day to be here. Really enjoyed hearing more insight on your life, your journey, why you do what you do. Pleasure to have you. Ari, great job. You're a wonderful moderator. A true inspiration to all those who like to speak. And we got to have you reading more next time. No, it's all good. And thank you all for listening. And, you know, share your feedback. Love to hear from you. And we'll see you on the next episode of the Direct Elimination podcast. Thanks for tuning in or watching this episode. We have a lot more guests that we're going to be speaking with and having on the show. And we can't wait to share their stories, and jokes, laughter, memory, and lessons with you. Take care. Follow, like, share, and subscribe. We also want to thank our sponsor, Team Prior USA. Thank you for all your support. Without you, we couldn't do what we do.