Jackie Dubrovich: Olympic Gold, Then What? Life After Paris 2024 | Direct Elimination Ep. 28

Jackie Dubrovich won Olympic gold with USA fencing in Paris 2024 — then walked away. What happens when the dream is done?

The Fencing Podcast of All Fencing Podcasts.

In this episode, you'll discover:
• How Jackie balanced a full-time corporate 9-to-5 with elite Olympic training — and why she says she couldn't physically do it again at 31
• What it's really like to be coached by your husband, share an Olympic gold medal moment with him, and still come home to the same person that night
• The paralyzing fear Jackie felt at her final individual Olympic event and how she willed herself through it on pure determination
• What identity after sport actually feels like — the aimlessness, the adrenaline gap, and the unglamorous realities of building Polaris Fencing Center from the ground up

Jackie Dubrovich is a two-time Olympian and Olympic gold medalist with the US Women's Foil Team at Paris 2024, one of the most decorated American fencers of her generation. Since retiring, she has channeled her competitive drive into opening Polaris Fencing Center in New Jersey, where she now coaches the next generation of fencers.

What's the hardest part of life after competing at the highest level — losing the sport itself, or losing the person you were inside it? Tell us in the comments.

⏱️ CHAPTERS
00:00:00 Introduction
00:01:20 Growing Up in New Jersey
00:08:28 The Grind
00:11:18 Husband & Coach Dynamic
00:20:53 The Pressure of a Final Olympics
00:25:26 Opening Polaris Fencing Center
00:35:37 What She Misses Most
00:37:57 Life After Sport
00:43:10 Lessons from the Podcast
00:45:12 One Light Answers
00:50:02 Closing Thoughts & Shoutout to Polaris Fencing Center

💬 BEST QUOTES
"My whole life was work like a 9 to 5 and then train in the evenings, compete on the weekends, train on the weekends that I'm not competing."
"It was it was a really beautiful, meaningful moment. And then to be able to hug him afterwards."
"I was just willing myself to the finish line. I knew that this was it, I just had nothing else to give."
"There is no other way to kind of replicate in my day to day life, the adrenaline that fencing gave me."

Theme song written and performed by Colin Campbell

🔗 Connect with Colin
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/campbelltunes/?hl=en

🔗 Connect with Jackie
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jackiedubrovich/

🤺Polaris Fencing Center: https://www.polarisfencing.com/

Thank you for listening!

🔗 Check out FencR

🌐: https://www.fencr.app/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fencr.app

🔗 Connect with Us

🎧 Listen on Spotify & Apple: https://link.me/directelimination
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/directelimination/
🎵 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@directeliminationpodcast
📺 Subscribe for more episodes: youtube.com/@DirectElimination

🔗 Prieur USA

🌐: https://www.prieurusa.com/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/prieur_usa/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

So we're starting.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Yeah, we're starting. Today on the pod, we have someone very special. We have a two-time Olympian, an Olympic team champion, a three-time World Cup, a three-time World Cup individual bronze medalist, a two-time Pan American individual bronze medalist, Pan American Championships individual bronze medalist, a three-time first team All-American, and a three-time back to back-to-back top 16 ranked in the world finisher. And honestly, just a great role model for the fencing community, and now club owner, Jackie Dubrovic.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to come and sit with us and tell us and the people your story in the sport. So I guess without further ado, we can just get right into it. You know, tell us a bit about who you are, where you're from, and how you got started in fencing.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Yeah. So I started when I was um eight years old, um, born and raised in New Jersey. Uh started fencing. Really, I didn't, it's funny, people now as a club owner, people ask me all the time, oh, when you first started, did you love fencing? And I'm one of the people that really did not like fencing. I was kind of kind of like put into it by my parents. Um, I did dance and gymnastics initially, and I was always very tall for my age, pretty lanky, uncoordinated. And so I never really excelled in either one of those sports.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

I've seen that episode before.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Um and so I had a cousin who fenced uh in in New Jersey. Um, we have a very like established high school fencing scene, and so he fenced in high school, and my parents were like, why don't you try the sport? Um, I did it, I really did not like it. Uh, but I was talented and and I liked winning. That was my main motivator. So I always tell parents this like, if your kids, they don't have to love the sport right away. But if they have that like inner fire and motivation to win, um, that's a good sign. And so I had that. And obviously, as I've you know gotten older, I I love the sport for what it is. Um, but I was not one of those first people that was like, oh, I fell in love with fencing.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

That's interesting. So, what what aspects would you say eight-year-old Jackie was not in love with? Like, what what did what really made you unhappy to do the sport?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

And I think like one, you have to be quite coordinated. Um, and that was not a skill of mine. I was very like awkward in my body, very tall, like not muscular at all. Um and I was also always made like fencing is a niche sport still, but like back then when I first started many, many years ago, it was like virtually unheard of. Like people did not know what fencing was. And so I had kids in my class who'd be like, Oh, do you jump over fences for a sport? Like stupid jokes like that. And like I just didn't enjoy being um the kid who didn't do a conventional sport, right? It's like when you're young, you don't like being an outlier. So I wanted to be a part of a sport that was like, you know, like a soccer or basketball or something like that. But um, I'm glad my parents pushed me to keep going in the sport.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

You guys come to this podcast for genuine, unfiltered, unbiased opinions on fencing in the game. And Ari and I seek to deliver that. That's why we would never ever try to sway you to buy certain equipment or or you know purchase things from a certain brand. Um that's just that's just not who we are. However, um, if you wanted, you can shop per USA anytime. Link in our bio.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Steven. Stephen, Steven, Steven. Steven. Stephen, Steven, Steven. If you're using Edge Advanced Grip Spray or the Advanced Grip System when you fenced, let me tell you, your shoes aren't slipping anywhere. Not one bit. Buy edge. Use code all in A-L-L hyphen I-in at checkout for a little discount. Yeah, so that's very, I'd say, common amongst a lot of the guests that we've had where they dreaded the fact that they would have to talk about fencing, specifically the American guests. The non-American guests, I don't think they faced it in the same way. Interesting. But in the US, we've heard that a lot about guests who they're, you know, guests who were upset with the fact that fencing was not seen as cool by their peers, and they were maybe made fun of it. You know, even Nick Aiken was talking about how one of his goals is to make it cool again. Because that way kids don't have to pretend to play another sport at school, right? I think he would tell people that he played soccer.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Uh, but at a certain point, and you know, nowadays, as an Olympic champion and now a club owner, you've clearly bought into fencing as your life journey, your life's project. So a question that we love asking and we're gonna ask you right now is when did that shift occur when you went from someone who maybe dreaded this or only liked the winning aspect, or wasn't sure, you know, what your place was gonna be with the sport to then being all it?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

It's a great question. It was pretty late, I would say. Um I was, I would say, purely motivated by winning for most of my fencing career. I would say when I graduated um from college in 2016, that was a really pivotal point in my life where, and I'm sure you guys attest to this and and other fencers who continue fencing after college, you have to really dedicate your life to it, right? Like there's a lot of sacrifices, especially in the US, um, the system that we're under, you you have to really be fully bought in. And so I made a very conscious decision to pursue it after I graduated. Um, and that's when I think I really started to love the sport because if you don't love it and all of that sacrifice and dedication and hard work that you're putting in, like it makes it really hard to do that journey. Um, so I think, you know, when I graduated, I really had like you plan your life in four-year chunks. And that was kind of like my motivation was I'm gonna make the Olympic team, I'm gonna give it my all. Um, I changed my whole life trajectory just based on that. So I think just organically, I had to start loving the sport or else it was gonna be a very tough journey to to Tokyo and beyond.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Yeah. So that was in 2016.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

All right. And now looking back on it all, we're we're jumping around. We're gonna have other questions, obviously. But looking back on it all, had it not ended in two Olympics and an Olympic gold medal and many accomplishments in between, would you still feel proud of that decision to go all in and give it your all?

SPEAKER_00 7:56

I think so. I think so. I think I, you know, I'm a person who when I set my mind to things, I give it a hundred percent. And so I think I would have been maybe not as satisfied uh with, you know, not getting like an Olympic gold medal or making the Olympics, but I think I I grew so much throughout that journey. Um and I I think maybe if I hadn't made it, but like months, years later, I think I still would be at peace knowing that I gave it my all. Um so yeah. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

So what was that process like then? Like you said, you changed your whole life trajectory, you sort of restructured your life to go all in. Can you walk us through like what what was life like post-2016 then?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah. Uh it was really hard. Like I think about it now, and and my husband Brian and I talk about this. Like, we could never do that at this age. Like we're it was just so tiring.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

Um, so I it is very tiring.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Like it's it's really, really hard. Um I I was very intent on uh and at that time, not a lot of fencers, one, were continuing past university, like when they graduated. And a lot were also not like simultaneously starting their careers. Like it's a really hard thing, and you guys can attest to this too, to balance both of those things. Um, so I was, you know, really motivated to have a life after fencing. I knew the importance of having a career. Everybody retires eventually. What does my life look like? And so also I didn't really have much financial support after I graduated from college. And so I had to, before I got on the team, fund everything, um, you know, just had to like make a living. Uh so I, you know, I changed coaches at that time. Um, I felt like I needed a just a change in my training regimen and just kind of a new perspective on the sport. Um, and then I, you know, was able to work a full-time job as I was training um for Tokyo at that point and then also later Paris. And so really my whole life was work, like a nine to five, and then train in the evenings, compete on the weekends, train on the weekends that I'm not competing. Um, and life was really hard. Like I would not have the energy right now as a 31-year-old to do what I was doing back then. Um, but I think it it helped that my uh now husband uh was also on the same journey as me. And so, you know, we would like get home at like 10 p.m. in our little Hoboken like apartment, our first apartment together, and we would like be absolutely exhausted and it would really suck. And then we would wake up the next morning at like 7:30 a.m. and make the trek into the city and go to work. So I think we were just both so hungry and driven to make the Olympics that that's what kept us going. But it like it was really, really hard.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. I mean, as people who are currently in that situation, we see exactly where you're coming from. And you know, you did it in a time where you feel seen. Yeah, I feel seen. But in reality, you should feel seen because something that you did as a minority ha you now see a larger group of people doing on all fronts across US fencing, which is great for the sport, and um, you know, obviously maybe we have a few more opportunities for support because of people like you and Lee and Garrick that pushed it early. Um so that's awesome. I think a good question is with that coaching change, that wasn't when you switched to Brian, you're now husband as your coach. So you switched coaches and then you made another switch as well for the Paris Olympics, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

So what was it like to go from being on this journey with Brian as athletes who are both training together, to then working with him as your coach? Because clearly you saw the most success in your career when he was your coach. And that dynamic is challenging. We've seen it for many, many, you know, even of our guests, parent and child coaching relationship. Obviously, this is different, but it's two people that are very close. You spend your whole lives together.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

How did that work and what was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

It made the gold medal sweeter, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

It did. It did. One of my favorite before answer question memories of the whole experience was on the podium. I didn't notice anything else. I just saw Brian, and he fun fact about Brian, it's very funny. He like can't listen to the national anthem without like crying. Like it doesn't matter where he is. Like, obviously, the Olympics is a big deal, but anywhere we are, like we're at like a basketball game or something, and he just gets tears in his eyes. I'm like, relax. And so I distinctly remember looking at him and he just had like he was like in hysterics. Like it was, it was a really beautiful, meaningful moment, and then to be able to hug him afterwards. But um, it was really difficult. Like it's a really challenging uh thing because there is inherently a power imbalance in a coach-student relationship. Um, you know, when I started working with Brian, it wasn't necessarily like even by choice. Uh, what had happened was it was during COVID. My previous coach left. So uh yeah, Brian like kind of fell into coaching in that sense. Like he had to step into that role for me. And he was uh, it was clear he wasn't able, he wasn't gonna make um Tokyo at that point. So, and he always wanted to coach. That's like been Brian's passion for many, many years. And it was almost like it was a perfect storm of events, and he got into coaching because of that, really. Um, and so we started working together and the dynamic was it's it's tricky. It's really tricky. Like we try not to, in our day-to-day life, like yell at each other or like, you know, try to have like good communication. And it's really hard when there's all this adrenaline and all this stress and all this pressure, and like he has to raise his voice and I react in the heat of the moment. And so it's like always, we were always towing the line. It was really hard. And then you have to like in the car on the way home from practice, you have a tough practice, and you just have to like switch to, all right, here's my fiance. Like, you know, we're happy, you know, go lucky. Um so it's it's hard. Uh, we tried to make it a point at home to not talk about fencing too much. Um, just have some like clear boundaries. Yeah, like sometimes we would talk, like do video analysis, whatever. But I think it was really important for us to like not to leave that dynamic in at the fencing club and to really like enjoy each other's company and not just be a coach-student relationship because it's it's really hard. Like, as you said, a parent-child uh dynamic is is different, but also very, very difficult. Um, and then like you know, a a a partner, uh, it's it's really, really hard.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

That's really interesting. Just like I I'm trying to imagine like what that dynamic would be like.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

I mean, it seems seems as though you guys did it in a very healthy way relative to sometimes. No, no, but just like the fact that the intent was there, you put boundaries, like that is important for the sustained, you know, success of that relationship on all fronts, right? All the yeah, I've had I had a my previous coach, he and I were very good friends. He's my coach at the time, and he was also my boss. I was working as an assistant coach at his university, and he was also my mentor outside of that, like in life. And and there are three or four different relationships that are all wound together in this ball. And I think the more you let them blend, the more challenging it gets. So the fact that you guys even were aware and tried to set those boundaries intentionally is really important because my relationship with him was nowhere as near as you know intense or as close as you guys. We never lived together. Um, I don't think we ever even shared a room together. Uh but sorry, say sport. But the point is, uh it's it's really impressive that you guys did that, and that foresight probably led to more success than you realized.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah, and I think also to acknowledge, like we Brian is the calm one in our relationship. He's definitely like we are very similar in certain aspects, but also balance each other out very well. I always say if there were two Jackies in this partnership, that would be a very difficult partnership to navigate. And also there would be some challenges if there were two Brians. I think we complement each other in really good ways. And the journey just taught us like so much about each other, um, like as individuals, as partners, as like coach athlete. Um, it's I like one of the most beautiful journeys of my life is that I was able to share it with him.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

That's awesome. That's a really beautiful journey. Honestly, like yeah. Would you would you recommend it to other couples?

SPEAKER_02 17:10

What what sort of like Yeah, we're both we're both uh in long term. I mean, Steven's dating and I'm engaged to uh two former fencers, but should we make him coach us or what?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Oof. I mean, if you if you know the risks that come with it, I think like just you know, just it kind of mirrors like a just a relationship in general, like clear, having clear boundaries, good communication, all these things that people tell you make are like our hallmark of a really healthy relationship. It extended to this kind of partnership as well, but just like in a little bit of a different way.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Seems like maybe that's important to apply to all coaching student relationships, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would agree.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Listen up, all coaches and students, uh probably only students listening to this, but if you're a coach and listening to this, yeah, set those boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Um, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you shouldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

What? Yeah, no. I think I think I think Dasha would kill me. I think I'd like to do it.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

I guess this is self-like self-awareness, like it's a good thing, you know, you're not pushing something that maybe wouldn't work.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yeah, well, what about you? Are you gonna do it? Hell no. Okay. Um so speaking of journeys, you know, you had an Olympic gold with someone that you've been on a team with for many generations, right? You and Lee were on this journey together from your teenage years, junior teams, senior teams, Olympic teams. Uh so like that's a lot of time to be with that teammate.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

But then you also had to play the role of the the older fencers, where you had two fencers on that Olympic team that were very new to being uh stars on the senior circuit. So what was that like taking your wealth of experience and helping lead this team to gold? Because they were two very crucial athletes in that tournament, in the in the final bout. Even Maya came in and just absolutely handled her stuff really well. And and what was that like having to balance trying to figure it out on your own and having to mentor younger athletes at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Yeah. Um I mean, I I knew um going into Paris that that was gonna be my last Olympics, uh, regardless of the outcome. And so for me, it was um how can I leave the squad, leave the sport uh in a better place? And I really felt like a personal responsibility to make sure that the next generation felt welcomed, that they felt like they were key members of the team. Um, you know, fencers like Lauren and Maya, Xander, right, who are much younger than me and they will always remind me of that. Um, but you know, it's it's a lot of pressure coming onto a senior team and to play such pivotal roles as well. Like they were very key, prominent members of the team. Um, but to just kind of not pave the way, but just to kind of guide them a bit to like what to expect. And it was like small ways. Like we we genuinely enjoyed hanging out with each other. Like we always played sellers of Catan, although Lauren does not like board games, but we would always find ways to just like spend time.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

It's about her business. We had her on this show.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Uh yeah, she's uh she's not into games, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Lauren didn't mess straight around. Lauren didn't mess around.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Um, but yeah, it's like ways to just integrate them organically, right? Not to force things to um, and just like I really enjoyed hanging out with them. Like it was a really fun experience. It was making this team was hard for Paris, but it was also so rewarding because we spent so much time together and like genuinely enjoyed each other's company.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

That's really cool. So then speaking of this the season leading up to the Olympics in individually, how how was that different, would you say? Like what was your approach emotionally, mentally, knowing it's the last one, right? Was it for you? Is it sort of a like a leave nothing on the table kind of thing, or was it business as usual because I'm always curious like people's mental states and how they handle different like high pressure environments kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 21:17

I was very stressed. I was I put a lot of pressure on myself. Um and it culminated right in a really tough individual event at the Olympics. I had never felt like such paralyzing fear. I was so scared. Like my mom tells me because she was in the, she was able to be there to watch that she was like, you looked like you were about to cry the moment you walked out. And I was just so nervous, so scared, and like felt like there was such a gravity of this moment. And um, and it was it was really tough. And I think for me too, looking back, it did feel a bit like I was just willing myself to the finish line. Like I I knew that I was this was it. Like I just had nothing else to give. Um I'm someone who, as a fencer, right, I wasn't the most technical fencer, but I had a lot of heart and a lot of fight. And I was very intense on the strip, right? Very, very intense. And I like fought really hard. Um, and I just felt by like the end of my career, probably the last like year and a half, maybe even two years, I was just willing myself to the finish line. I, you know, after Tokyo with us missing out on a medal, me having a tough individual event, like our national coach Bucky passing away, it was a pretty traumatic experience, uh, the Olympics. And it was a COVID Olympics. And I always thought that that was not the Olympics that I wanted my career to end on. And that's why I kept pushing. But at the same time, I felt myself starting to slow down a little bit, like physically, mentally, emotionally, more of I would say mentally and emotionally. It was just hard to keep fighting constantly. Um so it was tough. Like it was it literally, I was just willing and gritting my teeth until Paris.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

I mean, oh yeah, no. No, I mean it just it sounds like the fact that you're able to like speak so earnestly and honestly about the things that you were going through in those moments, like it seems like you've made peace with that though. And like learn, at least I'm I'm taking it as you've learned a lot from that, or like I just think it's impressive how like you you just sort of know like uh like how that went and how so I think I don't know, you you can weigh in on that if you want, but it was yeah, I I would say people always ask me this like if you had retired and you hadn't won a gold medal, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Or or you or you asked you that. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You did ask me that. Like, how, yeah, how would you feel? And you know, honestly, I don't know. Like it's easy to say right now when I finish on a career high. And it's like such a privilege to be able to say that, right? Most I had a really beautiful conversation with Daga in Paris, uh, who was like Shout out, Daga.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yeah, Daga Woznia, woman Saber National team coach.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Yes, she's incredible. And she was like, Jackie, like, you know, she saw me after the individual event and how heartbroken and devastated I was. And then she saw me after the team event and she was like, Jackie, like this is incredible. Like with tears in her eyes, like you are leaving the sport at the pinnacle. And like I am so privileged to be able to say that. Like I'm very conscious of that. Um, I don't know how I would feel if I, you know, the team went the team event went poorly. I don't know. Like it's easy to say sitting here right, you know, right now.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Maybe it'd still be fencing.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Hell no. No, definitely not. Um, but yeah, it's yeah, it's it's interesting to look back on.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Yeah. So one of the things that you just said was you knew you were that was all that you had left to give the sport, and and you had given it your all. And I sit now looking at someone who is giving more to the sport, but in a different way. So do you mind sharing with Steven and I a little bit of what that's like? You mentioned that Brian, your now husband and coach, it's been his life's goal to end up coaching, and that is his passion. He loves it. You now are a club owner and coach as well, and giving more to the sport in a totally different way. And what is that like? What has it been like for your perspective on fencing and how does it feel?

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah, it's interesting. When I retired, I kind of jumped. So before I started working again in the corporate world, I gave myself time to just kind of experience all facets of the sport, right? I ran for the board, I went as a team captain for the cadet and junior world championships in China. Um, I did all these things just to see like what resonated with me, like what felt like a very organic way for me to continue being in the sport. Um, we knew we were gonna open the club. Uh, pretty much we were having these discussions, like we were looking at spaces when we were in Paris and like signed a lease when we were still in Paris. So uh we knew that was happening, but I didn't know if I wanted to coach too, right? Like it coaching is so hard. Let me tell you, like I had never given lessons before. I give six lessons a day sometimes. Like, I'm sometimes more, and it's such difficult work for someone, like for people who've never coached, like, let me tell you, it is hard work. And I just wanted to see like what resonated with me. Um and I'm still figuring it out, I would say. Like, I by default, I have, you know, the club, like we own a club, like we are responsible for kids. And it is, I will say that has been the most fulfilling thing for me is like whenever I'm exhausted after my my corporate day job and I'm like dragging my feet, and we get to the fencing club and we have our little ones who are eight, seven, sometimes nine years old, and they're, you know, they they're excited about the sport. They have these funny one-liners, and like I'm giving a lesson and they get something right that we've been working on. It's genuinely so fulfilling for me to see that. So it's been the fencing club has been so much work, so much work, like more work than I envisioned. Um, running a small business is really hard. Like the coaching stuff is easier in comparison to everything else that comes with running a small business, right? There are things that we have had to learn on the fly that, like, I'm a very type A person. I feel like I plan everything, I'm super organized, and just unforeseen things happen all the time. All the time. And you're like, I thought I planned for this, and very expensive unforeseen things. And we have to figure out, you know, the accounting and figure out like the lease stuff, and we have to figure out, you know, parent concerns and like programming and kids, you know, missing lessons and reschedule, all these like small things that you take for granted, but then like you own your small business and you're like, oh, someone has to do that, and that's on our shoulders.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

What's harder, coaching or running the business?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Oh, I would say, ooh, um the business for me. Because coaching, it's like fulfilling. Like doing monthly accounting is not fulfilling, but it's a necessity to run a small business. But we're we're excited. I mean, our club is growing. We're bringing in a third coach in June.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

That's that's actually huge.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah, yeah. So we're really, yeah, we're we're growing and it's it's a lot of work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

And you're back in corporate America too, you said?

SPEAKER_00 28:26

I am.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Oh my gosh. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 28:29

I work in ad tech, so that's always been the uh industry that I've historically like worked in ever since.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

That's perfect. Because this is a QuickBooks ad. That's why I started laughing when you said something about you know monthly accounting. This has been brought to you by QuickBooks. Squarespace. Um anyways. Yeah. So do you got anything?

SPEAKER_01 28:52

I do, I do. Um what advice would you give to someone who's looking to open up a fencing club, now having done it? Not as a competitor, right? But just like what's something that maybe people wouldn't think of, or or what's your number one piece of advice, new club owner or new coach?

SPEAKER_00 29:10

I would say like it's all well and good that you are, you know, most people who want to open a fencing club are passionate about fencing, right? Um but have people in your corner who can give you good sound like business advice. Because a fencing club, at the end of the day, you have bills to pay, you have rent to pay, you have utilities, you have all of these things that are on your shoulders. So if you're not someone who is very business minded, um have people in your corner who can help you with that because it's very easy to get swept up in like I love fencing. Like my the natural progression is to work at a fencing club or open up a fencing club after retirement. But there is like very there's a lot of very concrete things that you have to be aware of. And and the thing is like I also say like don't don't be too intimidated to do it because like we, I I I would say Brian and I are pretty organized people. We've had corporate experience, we kind of understand loosely how businesses work, but it's it's another thing to actually be in it and to experience all these unforeseen things. Like, for example, we opened up our club and we thought we could get away with like giant industrial fans in the summertime. We've seen other clubs do that, and we're like, okay, like this should be okay. We don't have AC or didn't have AC at that time. We start start our first summer camp and it's really hot inside our space. And there's we're like, oh no, like we cannot proceed. Like we either have to shut down for the summer or we have to invest in air conditioning, which is very, very expensive in an industrial space. So like these are all the things that like you just can't plan for. So it's a little intimidating, but just make sure you have good, you know, people in your corner who are we can plan for it now, thanks to that tip.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Yeah, so I won't have one. Steve and I open up a club. Yes. We're gonna put an AC immediately.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

A C.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

It's a part of our business plan.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah. A C. Yes, seriously, and it's a costly line item.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

So just letting you know that's why we're looking for investors today.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Or sponsor for that.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Um, yeah, have lawyers, have accountants, have all these people, like hire people to do that kind of stuff, right? It's a lot of work. If you want to focus on the coaching aspect of things, like offload that work to others.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Okay. Nice. I think that's good advice.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

And what about for a new coach? New coach, like opening up a club or just giving like someone who's trying to transition to coaching from something else that they were doing.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Yeah, it's very different. It's being uh an elite athlete does not necessarily translate to being a good coach. And I'm learning, I like I went to I remember the Cadet Junior World Championships in China as a team captain, and I was sitting there with like a notebook and watching all these lessons that coaches were giving because I'm trying to it like understand the why, like the framework. You know, you can't just like stand in front of a kid and just like you know, do random set of actions. There has to be like a cohesive like thing that you're doing. Um so it's tricky, it's really tricky being a coach. Um, I just say like be a student of the game, observe others around you, observe other coaches, right? Who you see at NACs or other competitions, and like, yeah, just absorb that information. It's like constant learning.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

I think that's really good advice. I think treat it the same way you treat fencing, right? You're doing video review with fencing, you're planning your drilling, like you do the you just translate that into coaching.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

I've I've heard of coaches even taking coaching lessons from other coaches if they're comfortable, you know, both asking and you know, giving.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

So I I think that's great advice. And I think that just remembering that we are not ever perfect. We just constantly have to grow. I think that's that's something that is universal. Yes. And it's probably one of the things that is going to help you grow as a coach more quickly, that hunger for learning and trying to get that why. So good on you.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Um, not that I should be giving any stamps of approval, but that I I am happy to hear that. It's cool. Steven, do you want to explain what just happened?

SPEAKER_01 33:21

I've been waiting for a month now.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Show show the weapon that you just used on me.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

So, as dedicated listeners of the podcast will know, Ari has a talking uh thing. And uh I had to come up with a way to get him to stop.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Like a cat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

I've been I've been waiting for like a month to use these. He did a great job in the last episode when I had these to not them for the Soren episode. You didn't see them the whole time. They were behind me the entire time in the Soren episode. Oh wow. I was just so quiet. He did a great job once. That one I I might have jumped the gun a little bit. That was good.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

That was good. I needed it. I was I don't know if you guys can see the glistening water, but that was awesome. Thanks for being here for that, Jackie. That was not planned. Um totally lost my train of thought, too. This is good. You must ask the next question.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

It's assuming I had a question. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

So what is the thing you miss most about being because that was so long that you were in the sport competing, even from the age of 10, right? And you retired at 29 or 30. You're born in 94. I was born in 94.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

So 29.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Did I turn on your birthday is July 18th. So yeah, you were 30.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

I just thought I just turned 30.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

That is a 20-year career.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yeah. Oh my.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

And for a lot of it, you were an elite athlete. Yeah. So I remember you making world teams in juniors. Did you make any in cadet? I did. So okay, you've been on the national team for over half of that time, right? It's a lot of experience, it's a lot of investments, like community, and you're traveling to these places that you begin to fall in love with and miss when you're not there. Yeah. And people that you're used to seeing all the time. Because you're coaching, but as you're not coaching at the senior World Cups at the Grand Prix, you're coaching children.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Regional, local events. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

You're seeing some people there, but really, what is the thing you miss most about that process? Because as hard as you said that it was, is clearly very gratifying and something that gave you purpose. Otherwise, you wouldn't have done it. So what? Yeah, what what do you miss?

SPEAKER_00 35:37

I miss the there's a couple of things. I miss the traveling. I miss like going to all these cool places. Um, particularly when I I took a like a hiatus from my corporate career and I was able to just train for the first time in my career. Um, that was like a year and a half before Paris. Uh, just to like spend more time in these cities that I was never able to actually ex like spend time in, right? You would just go to the venue and then I'd have to fly back immediately because I had work the next day. Um, so that was really fun being able to do that with Brian. Um, just like all the fun times like with the team, we were pretty close uh leading into Paris. And so we would spend time, you know, at training camps together and like we would fence, work really hard, and then you would be able to just like enjoy yourselves, right? Now my life is very different. It's I have no free time, and corporate career is not as satisfying as traveling to Hong Kong and like you know, it's it's just very different, right? My life is very, very different. So I do miss that. And what else I miss is there is no other way to kind of replicate in my day-to-day life like the adrenaline that fencing gave me, unless I don't I don't even know what the equivalent would be, but like really skydiving. Skydiving, yeah, I guess I could do that. Um but yeah, there's nothing that replicates that feeling of like victory, like my corporate day diving or loss, probably too.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

That entire moment, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yes, like the extremes of those emotions that you experience, both good and bad, it's really hard to replicate in real life. Um so yeah, I do kind of miss those. Like the moments, you know, when we, I mean, when we won the Olympics, there's like no feeling in the world. Maybe when I have a kid, maybe that's like a equivalent, but I think it's still a little different. Um, but there's nothing that I can ever do that will replicate that feeling.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

So going off of that, what advice do you have for people going through large moments of change in their life?

SPEAKER_00 37:38

You know, I'm not sure I'm the right person to ask.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

No, that might make you a better person to ask because if it was really challenging for you, then there are definitely things you're a learner, you're an analytical student, and there are definitely things that you have learned from it. I'm not saying you did them well. I'm just saying, well, what's your advice having gone through that?

SPEAKER_00 37:57

So it's really interesting. I immediately after Paris, I was so I just like launched into doing all of these fencing adjacent things, right? Being on the board, going, being a team captain, running a fencing club that like I didn't have time. Not that I have time now, but I almost feel like when you hear a lot of retired athletes talk about like a very tough transitional period in their lives, like I actually feel like I'm in like a delayed onset of that right now. Um because it was just so everything was happening so quickly after the Olympics, right? Like there's a whirlwind, you get home, like everyone wants to see you, or doing all these interviews, all this fun stuff. And then, you know, now it's like I'm in this really regimented lifestyle where I'm I'm working a corporate job and then I'm I'm working at the fencing club five days a week, and it's it's it's different. Um, so I feel like I'm actually in it right now almost, and I'm trying to figure out like what path to take in my life. Like, do I go into coaching full time and like really immerse myself in that? Um, how important is like growing in my corporate career to me? Like, that's a conversation that I have daily with Brian right now. Um and like what makes me happy and fulfilled, I think that's something that I haven't quite figured out uh after retirement is like what truly drives me. Like I'm a very goal-oriented person. For me, I need a task and a goal to reach, and then I will work 150% right to reach that goal. Um, I'm very driven and ambitious. But right now I almost feel like I don't know what that goal is in my life, and it I feel a little aimless almost, um, which is a very foreign feeling for me. As an athlete, you have very clear benchmarks you want to attain. And right now I'm like, I'm in the middle of it. So maybe we could do a follow-up podcast episode as I figure my life out. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

What I hear you saying, and it's something that has come up a lot in this podcast and uh podcast series, right? And and also just a lot of other conversations that are really prevalent right now uh on the internet. It seems like you're navigating the space of trying to figure out what gives you happiness, who is Jackie outside of the athlete, right? Like what what drives you outside of that? How can you derive the important lessons that you got from that and just like be yourself outside of that? And that that might be the goal. Yeah. Thank you, Ari. But it it sounds like maybe what you've learned is that you know, as you're going through this, that goal is no longer as clear as it used to be, but it's still your north star is is purpose and some type of self-actualization. And that's I think that's it for everyone, right? And maybe I don't know. If you're listening to this, shoot Jackie some suggestions. Um but I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

I was talking to Brian, I was like, maybe I'll do like a little eat pray love thing. I'll just drop everything for like a month and I'll go somewhere and vision quest. Vision quests.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

No, but really I think a lot of a lot of people struggle with that both in and out of sport. Yeah. And it seems as though when we have sport as this tool to help us refine our being and and who we are, things are very clear and it's easy, it's a crutch. And then it's very common with athletes, high performers at anything, when they're stripped away from that, there's this sense of emptiness. But I I think that at least I dealt with this when I was out for a whole season with my injuries and surgeries, you know, just trying to figure out who are you without this. And I don't even fully know if I got the answer. I did accept that I might never fence again, and that gave me some peace. And just trying to understand that maybe because we are people who push ourselves, it's just finding something to push yourself in. And the results just look different. Like your, you know, we had an Olympic champion sit in here a couple uh episodes ago, Roman Cannon. Yeah, and he talked about how maybe now he's trying to go to the Olympics of entrepreneurship. So maybe thinking about it like that could be helpful because he's running a small coffee shop or macaron cafe, excuse me, where they serve coffee uh in Manhattan, and you know, he's pushing for the Olympics of entrepreneurship and maybe framing it in a similar way where you're still pushing to be an Olympian again, just in a different light.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

That's really that's really cool. I never thought about it that way. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

We talked to a lot of people in here. It would be very, very sad if Stephen and I learned nothing. And that was the only thing I learned. I've only learned one thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

So somebody actually asked me. What did you learn? Somebody actually asked me on Sunday, you know, what have you learned from doing the podcast? And I went, There's a couple things, and I I knew there were three things, and I couldn't remember the third. Yeah. That was the third one, right? Where it's like, whenever you transition out of the sport, you take all of the lessons, all the passion, all the willingness to work and the ability to do all this work. Um, and you just have to find another outlet for it, right? And that's where the not the fulfillment, but like that's having that process in your life again kind of gives it some direction, and maybe you find a whole new interest or a whole new reason for doing what you do. That was number three. Um what are one and two? Now that now that you're just playing some knowledge on us. Now that the pressure's on number one was um process, not goals, like loving the process, being focused on the process. That's more. Important than trying to get to the end of the road. Right. And if you just go for the results, you just go for the end of the road, you're not gonna make it. Or if you do make it, you're gonna be like, oh well now what? Right? Or if you're not gonna make it, you're gonna be really sad.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Um number two, I said number two is flow state. Like this idea of flow state, this idea of like finding the flow state, being in the flow state in like this otherworldly focused state seems to be a recurring thing when people talk about these like great Olympic performances or like great world championship performances, just these significant fencing performances is like this this concept is very real, and I think it's something that people like very successful people seem like they pursue it often and they like have a method to get into it. Yeah, and I don't think people think about this thing a lot. I think they yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

So if you haven't ever listened to this podcast and never want to listen again, those are the three things that you would have learned. And now you don't have to listen to any of those other uh any of these other episodes, but we will send you some after that are curated to this experience.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Um, I think it's about time to jump into our final segment, which we love doing, and you're right of way fencer, so you know all about single light touches. Uh, you have to be very decisive, you have to close out that timing before your opponent can get a light on, and you just have to trust what goes into your head. So we call this final segment one light answers.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

Because it is a rapid fire.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

And it is not so challenging, but if you start tripping up, it gets more challenging. And now we have a great one.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

And then you can edit it out.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Well, no, now we have a great way to just incentivize our guests. I know. You keep pointing the nozzle at me. Yeah, okay. I'll put this down. This is dandy. Is the safety on? Yeah, no. No, the safety's not on. Always keep the safety on, guys. Okay. Um, anyways, are you ready to go? All right, hit me. Take us away, Steven. I wasn't ready. Take us away, Ari. Who are your two favorite fencers?

SPEAKER_00 46:12

My oh my god. Uh Ina Didiglasova, who uh Russian beautiful fencer. I've always loved her fencing. And my husband.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Hey, shout out Brian.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

He was a beautiful fencer. I was not a beautiful fencer. I fully acknowledge that. Uh he was a beautiful fencer. I wish I could fence or could have fenced.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Brian Kanashiga, YouTube him. Favorite city you've ever been to for fencing.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Oh, for fencing. Um, this is a really hard one. I love, I mean, I love Paris. I love Hong Kong. I wish I'd gone to St. Petersburg when it wasn't dead of winter. Um, it's a beautiful, beautiful city, but was so frigid and like I think I went January, February. So I wouldn't recommend that.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

Fair. Uh, what is something that you had in your equipment bag that you should not have or that shouldn't be there?

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Nothing.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

No, I'm very or I was very organized, like laid everything out the night before. I've gotten that answer. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

That that counts. That counts.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Kudos. Can't say the same for myself.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

I'm gonna do a new one. Okay. Is there a city you're happy that you don't have to visit anymore because you're not competing?

SPEAKER_02 47:24

No, Woman's poor gets all the good locations. They gotta go to Cancun, Stephen. They're not going to Heidenheim, Germany.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

I'm not gonna say it because I don't want to offend people, but there are definitely some locations.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Can you say Anaheim?

SPEAKER_00 47:37

No, not Anaheim's fine. No, no, no, no. There's there's places, but I'll keep that to myself.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

All right, fair. Next next question. Who's the hardest bout you ever fenced?

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Inaid Diri Glasova.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

All right, fair. Is that part of what made her your favorite fencer?

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Uh I just loved how fierce she was. She was a beautiful textbook fencer.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

Um many time champion across every level of fencing.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Very like aggressive, very intense. I loved her demeanor.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Did you have a go-to hype up song?

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Um not one song, but I was I listened to a lot of like house and then rap. I would yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Your song for the favorite fencing touch was a Fred Again song.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Yes. Yeah, I remember. That's impressive. You remember that. Okay, Fred, anything Fred Again. Fred again. That's good.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Yeah. Um who would win in about you or Brian Kanashige?

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Brian.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Brian, and let me tell you, when we were training together, that was a source of a lot of fighting on my end. Because I hated losing to him. I there was nothing more. It would ruin the rest of the practice, the rest of the night. We wouldn't talk.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Did you have a lot of ruined practices then?

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

So it's better when he was coaching and not fencing.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Honestly, yes. Yes, yes. And it's funny, the kids nowadays are like, why don't you guys fence? I'm like, you don't want to see us in that capacity. Like, we are grown adults. You don't want to see that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Once I started dating my now fiance, Dasha, we we were on the same team at Notre Dame, and we only fenced again one more time, and it was because Cedric, our coach at the time, had these rotations and we were forced to meet up in the rotation. Somehow we never met up in the rotation for an entire year.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

She met up with Steven a bunch of times in the rotation with all of our other teammates. And then I would always be like, ah, I really hope I like she just accidentally wind up fencing her. It didn't happen. And the one time it did, she was like, Keep your mouth shut.

unknown 49:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

I want to hear anything. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Exactly. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Anyways, um, all right. Final question. What's your favorite piece of Prior equipment?

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Well, I was an Olman girly, so sorry. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

That that's always fine. We support all brands in here, but we are only supported by one, and that is Prior USA. Shoppre USA.com. Anyways, Jackie, thank you so much for coming onto this podcast. I think that your story is inspiring, and you really didn't couldn't highlight it enough because we don't have fencing footage going on in here. But check her out. You were a very fierce competitor, and it was obviously um, I never fenced you. We were different weapons and stuff, but watching you compete, you were really fierce and you truly laid it all out there. And it's always fun to see athletes just giving it their all because that is what we all aspire to do, to get off strip and say, like, I gave it 100%. And there have been too many times that I myself have gotten off and known that I was scared or left it something in the tank. And to know that you know you gave it your all is it's really cool to hear you even reflect on that. And good luck to everything that you're doing now and finding yourself, finding the next passion, the next thing that drives you. You're moving in a lot of directions and you're progressing in all those directions. I get to work with you uh in the like USA fencing board capacity, and you know, get to watch your club grow and whatnot. And it's it's cool. So you have momentum. I hope you find what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Thank you. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

Just wanted to say, I'll keep it brief, but I just want to say this was a really, really cool. Uh just let's say this was a really, really cool interview from my end because I felt like you covered everything so well. Like you really worked through the questions, you had very coherent answers, like took them all in stride, and like even ones that were unique, like very well articulated, and it was really just a pleasure to to sit here and and hear you speak about your career. Um, also, you know, we say this to all of our guests, and we we we mean it, but like we hope to have you back on in the future. I get this this sense, this this aura that you have a lot of really great stories, and we would love to get into those stories and hear the sort of one-off things that have happened. But congratulations on the club, congratulations on a wonderful career, and and thank you so much for for spending this time with us.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Thanks, guys. Of course, it was fun.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Wait, really quick before we before we do the high fives, can we shout out the fencing club?

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Oh, yeah, wait, yes, great thing. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

Where can what is the name of your club?

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Are you guys on social media? Where can we find you? Website, and what is your personal social media?

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Tell this club. Tell that.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Okay. Um, so the name of our fencing club that I uh opened with my husband Brian is named uh Polaris Fencing Center. We've been open for a year and a half. Um, PolarisFencing.com, Polaris Fencing on Instagram, and then my Instagram, which I don't really use social media, I'm not a huge social media fan, but uh Jackie Dobrovich.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

All right, thank you. Go check that out, everyone, and make sure to give them some love if you're in Orange, New Jersey. Yeah, go take a foil lesson and show up. You know, I didn't fence when I showed up, but I did show up, and it's a cool industrial facility uh modeled after very own. There was air conditioning. Yes. Um modeled after our very own Olympic training center. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Yeah. That's awesome. We use that as inspiration.

SPEAKER_02 53:28

Anyways, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 53:30

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

Um, you want to do some ads?

SPEAKER_01 53:42

I could do an ad.

SPEAKER_02 53:47

See, I'm not that suave of a guy, but when I'm wearing my Pure mask, I sure do feel like one. By Prior USA. Get grippy with edge.