Direct Elimination Podcast

3x Olympian Kat Holmes Used Game Theory to Win a World Championship Gold | Direct Elimination Ep. 30

• Direct Elimination Podcast • Season 2 • Episode 12

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0:00 | 57:31

3-time Olympian & World Champion Kat Holmes used game theory to win. She qualified for the Olympics while surviving medical school on zero sleep. This is an elite competitor. 

The Fencing Podcast of All Fencing Podcasts.

In this episode, you'll discover:
• How Kat used her Princeton thesis on Nash equilibrium to develop an overtime fencing strategy that helped anchor Team USA to the 2018 World Championship title
• What it actually looked like to train for the Olympics while completing medical school — the sleep deprivation, the mental health struggles, and how she got through it
• The shocking moment Kat was asked to testify at a legal hearing for the Alan Hadzic safe sport case the night before her Olympic debut at Tokyo
• How Kat's biomechanics research on fencing lunges and injury patterns is shaping the future of sports medicine for fencers

Kat Holmes is a three-time Olympian (Rio, Tokyo, Paris), 2018 World Championship anchor for Team USA's women's épée squad, four-time NCAA All-American at Princeton, and a practicing medical professional whose scientific research is now focused on the sport she's spent her life mastering.

⏱️ CHAPTERS
00:00:00 Introduction
00:04:06 A Nine-Year-Old Who Wanted to Sword Fight
00:06:54 The Distinctive Style
00:09:19 Fencing, Princeton, and the Road to the Olympics
00:13:04 Paris: The Final Hurrah
00:19:34 Tokyo Olympics
00:25:05 Medical School, Mental Health, and Burnout
00:27:54 Leveling Up as a Team
00:29:44 Becoming the Best Anchor in the World
00:32:31 Kat's Winning Thesis
00:35:32 Winning Strategy, Commitment, and Tactical Discipline
00:41:43 Performance Optimization
00:44:14 Biomechanics Research
00:50:03 One Light Answers
00:54:33 Closing Thoughts

💬 BEST QUOTES
"I will say that medical school and qualifying for the Olympics was like the hardest. I can't honestly imagine anything harder. I didn't sleep for two years."
"I never want to have to wonder, like, what if? What if I had worked harder? What if I had done this? I really wanted to always leave it on the table."
"I think at one point I probably was the best anchor in the world for like a little minute."
"I don't have an Olympic medal. Do I want one? Yes. Would I like to be Olympic champion? Obviously. But I think, you know, the body of my career more speaks to the heart and soul that I put into it."

🔗 Connect with Kat
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/worldfencingleague

Theme song written and performed by Colin Campbell
🔗 Connect with Colin
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/campbelltunes/?hl=en

Thank you for listening!

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SPEAKER_01

Let's cut to the chase, Steven. Who do we have in the studio with us today?

SPEAKER_00

We have in the studio today a three-time Olympian, the anchor of the 2018 world champion team, three-time zonal silver medalist, four-time zonal bronze medalist, two-time Pan Am Games champion, uh Grand Prix bronze medalist, four-time NCAA All-American, and multiple-time national champion Catholmes. Woo.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks for joining us, Kat.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks for inviting me down here.

SPEAKER_01

I think the when I think of quintessential, you know, the archetypal idea of someone who is excellent at what they do, regardless of what it is, very, very focused and able to balance work, passion, or just hard work across a variety of different things. You're one of the names that comes to mind. I've known you for many years at Ket, and it's just been really cool to see your career start off on a high note and just sort of carry for a while. I don't think you missed a national team from the time you were in cadet till you retired. And that is incredibly impressive across any weapon, any sport, any any event in fencing, but even more impressive in our wonderful, super inconsistent, wonky world of Epe. So that being said, the entire time you were doing that, you were following your heart, pursuing your studies at Princeton, then continuing to research and grow and scratch that itch while you prepared for all the Olympic pursuits that you had gone and undergone. And on top of that, prepared for life after sport, where you are now a resident at Mount Sinai.

SPEAKER_03

Well, as of July 1st.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, about to start residency, but finishing up med school. And at no point letting your foot off the gas on any of those things. It was just kind of this steady flow. And that can't be overlooked. That that's something that's incredibly impressive. And it's just really exciting to have you in here. You're someone who we talked to about being on here early on in the process. And just like anything in adult life, it ended up being like, okay, we'll we'll talk again in a month. Oh, you're free. Oh, yeah. And then we kind of fell off the ball. And then here we are. And finally, you're on the show.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I'm so I'm blushing internally. That was all of those nice things.

SPEAKER_00

That was a really nice.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I don't think I've ever been lauded so beautifully. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00

How long were you prepping that one?

SPEAKER_01

Was that off the dome? I think I started writing that the first time I met Kat.

unknown

Ha!

SPEAKER_03

When Ari was nine.

SPEAKER_01

Look, Kat was a friend of Alliance Fencing Academy. I've actually known Kat for very many years. And when Kat said I, you know, she had to deal with annoying Ari at a young age. That that is true. Kat's known me since I was really annoying.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Now like he's only like a tiny bit of a man.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, now it's just like I think you're maybe just the amount of time you spend with him is less now.

SPEAKER_03

Maybe. That is also probably a factor of the colour.

SPEAKER_01

Anyways, this episode's about you, not me.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the Ari Simmons show.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, so after that wonderful introduction, um, the way we just like to get into it is tell us your story, you know, why fencing, how fencing, where did it all start? And we can kind of run through that and then we'll have additional questions for you along the way.

SPEAKER_03

All right. So like I think surprised to know when I was like a very big nerd growing up. Um I played a lot of other sports like very unwell. Um, but I loved reading books about medieval times and sword fighting. Um, and I was like, mom, dad, I really want to sword fight. Okay. Um, great. Um, and so my mom found a class at the Chevy Cheese Community Center in Washington, DC. It was like a DC parks and rec program. It was a hundred dollars for a year. So like best activity ever. Go and do it. Um, but I just loved it. Um, like from day one. Um, I feel like I use this reference all the time, and I it's gonna fall flat on the younger ears, but maybe some of the the older, more cultured younger ears will have seen Chariots of Fire. Have you guys seen it?

SPEAKER_01

I haven't seen it. Unculture can't lie on a public podcast. So I'm gonna like seen it. I would love to have said yeah.

SPEAKER_03

We've probably heard the theme song. It's like dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. Yeah, yeah, you guys know that anyway.

SPEAKER_01

And something in slow motion. Yes, yes, this. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03

Excellent.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, never mind.

SPEAKER_03

Oh no, wow, that fell flat. Anyway, um, actually, I think you're a little bit sharp.

SPEAKER_01

It's okay.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but the premise of a movie is you've got two runners, it's like the first Olympics after World War One. Um, and the one runner in question like qualifies for the Olympics, and he's a very religious man, and he has to compete on the Sabbath, and his family is like not having it. Um and he and his sister are walking on the marsh, and his sister's kind of like opining that he, you know, he's like, You shouldn't, you shouldn't compete because it's the Lord's Day. And he's, you know, God made me for a purpose, but he also made me fast. When I run, I feel his pleasure. Um, I'm not necessarily saying that like God's hand spoketh to me when I fence, but at a more like definitely felt his pleasure. Yes, alright. I felt his pleasure. Um in a more like scientific terminology, if you know the concept of like resonance and resonance frequencies, yeah um, like if you strike a tuning fork and a wine glass will explode, everything in the universe has a resonance frequency. We do. And like I think my nine-year-old brain was like, this is what I was made to do, be it whether you believe in God or not. Like when I was nine, I was like, this is correct. Um, and so I just kind of like stopped doing everything else and just kept fencing. Um, and then I was very tall for a 10-year-old. Um, so I did pretty well. And because I loved it, I did it more than the other kids. So I got better than them just because I did it more and I was tall. And then I started winning, and then I was like, Well, this is really fun. So then I did it even more, and then I won even more, and it just kind of like kept somersaulting from there. Um, I think the for those who knew me as a competitor or knew me as a fencer, like I had a very distinctive style. Like I fenced with my arm like right out there. And I the reason why I did that is because like when you're just learning how to fence, people were always like, you need to extend your arm before you lunge. And I kept forgetting in the kids' class, and I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna just extend my arm all the time, and then I won't have to remember. Um, and so that's why I fenced like that.

SPEAKER_01

It it worked pretty damn well. It did, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I could always tell when like coaches were coaching against me because they would be like, uh, and I'd be like, Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Good luck.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's funny because I I see that a lot more nowadays. You're clearly copying me. Yeah, obviously.

SPEAKER_03

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00

Uh but no, there's something to it. Like, I mean that's that's hilarious, but there there is something to this like keeping your arm out position because you do have some integrity to like change and like take the blade.

SPEAKER_03

But the trick is like you have to be able to come back when you actually take a parry. I learned how to take parry.

SPEAKER_00

Did you fully lock out?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, I would fully lock out.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_03

Fully locked out, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because I think you see a lot more like like 80, 90 percent.

SPEAKER_03

No, no, no. I was like fully extended, and then like it was working.

SPEAKER_00

Your shoulder is probably so strong.

SPEAKER_03

It is. I've been in much physical therapy for it for years. Um, but my we Ari and I share a physical therapist, everybody.

SPEAKER_01

Shout out No, it doesn't matter. Rachel, but you probably seem to be.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yeah, shout out to Rachel.

SPEAKER_01

We share multiple physical therapists. Yeah, we share multiple physical therapists. Rachel Hayes Shipton, who's had an episode here. Shout out Rachel again, but also her last name. You told me about Sepna. Yeah, no, they could not. Sorry, Sepna. Yeah, but shout out Sepna at Optim Physical Therapy. She's also amazing, and just all physical therapists everywhere. People in the healthcare industry, specifically on the supporting patients side of it, uh, just you know, heroes. And Kat will say that about you very soon.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, I want to go into sports med, like all my research is like fencing sports med. Um, so I you know, my my goal is to like be somebody who actually focuses on treating fencers.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So cat taped my shoulder at an act. So I I'm gonna go ahead and say you are a hero. Was it you're already a hero, my brother? I don't know. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it was the best tape you ever had.

SPEAKER_00

Best tape I ever had.

SPEAKER_01

I can't wait to see you at an act.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I've been at them.

SPEAKER_01

I can't wait to see you the next time. Okay, there we go. Sorry, let's let's make that clear. Yeah, anyways, back to your story.

SPEAKER_03

Back to my story, yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I guess so it just kind of went off from there. I mean, when I was a little kid, like, I don't know, you're like watching sports on TV, and I remember my mom being like, You're never gonna play sports in college because it's gonna detract from your studies. And then, like, clearly it was like, okay, fine, like obviously like fencing is gonna help you get into college. So by all means. So then I went to Princeton and she was like, but you're never gonna take time off from school. Like, you're good, you know, it's like all studies focused. And then by the time it came for the Rio Olympics, it was like very clear that like I was in a strong contention. So, like, all right, well, obviously I'm taking time off. And honestly, the goal was just to go to Rio. And then I was like, gonna take the MCATs, gonna go to medical school. Um, but in Rio, we lost to the um the gold medal team Romania by one point in overtime. And me and my teammates, the Hurlies, were like, oh, like, oh my god, like maybe we could actually do something if we if we keep going with this. Um, so all of us kind of kept going. Obviously, we kept going. Um, and so I I graduated from from Princeton, went back, finished my senior year. I had taken two years off between my junior and senior year, um, and then like took the MCATS, applied to medical school, kept training. And then the year, the original year of qualification for Tokyo, um, I applied, was applying to medical school and like qualifying at the same time, which was like also very challenging because it you have to like, well, now it's different because they do all Zoom interviews, but I had to like fly and travel to med school interviews and fly and travel to competitions. It was like a whole thing. Um, and I actually I wanted to go to Sinai, uh, Mount Sinai, where I went to med school and I'm gonna do my residency because it's USA fencing's partner hospital. Um, and so I was in Budapest um for like the second to last Grand Prix when I found out I got into med school. So I was like, yay, like I'm going to med school, I'm going to where I wanted to go to med school, I'm done. And then the next day they were like, pandemic, tournaments canceled, Olympics canceled, don't know what's gonna happen. And so it was very much in limbo, but at that point we had one more World Cup left, didn't really know when the Olympics were gonna happen. I was like, there's no way I don't know, I I can't start med school because what if the Olympics are like in the spring? They were talking about, so I deferred med school for a year, basically trained in my coach's Zoltan's basement. Um, and then finished qualification, went to Tokyo. Going into Tokyo, you know, I think the team we had won the 28 team world championships, we'd been like top one, three, three through one in the world for a long time. We're really hopeful to win gold, at least a medal. And for a variety of circumstances, that didn't happen. And I think I felt like I didn't want to leave fencing on that note. I was like, I think if I retire now, I'm really gonna always end on what if. And that's one thing I always really tried in my career. I never want to have to wonder like what if, what if I had worked harder, what if I had done this? I really wanted to always leave it on the table. And because the Olympics had been postponed by a year, I was like, oh, it's only three years until the next Olympics. Like, let's see if we can do it while we're in medical school. And Lee Lee Kiefer and Garrick Meinhart had balanced the first two years of medical school. So I was like, okay, like let's see if I can do this. And by the time I realized how awful it was, I was like, too far in. Um, because basically I came back from Tokyo, started med school three days later, and then like because everything was so compressed, like started training and competing right off the bat. I will say that medical school and qualifying for the Olympics was like the hardest. I I can't, I can't honestly imagine anything harder. I didn't sleep for two years. Like, I mean, you guys remember I was like studying like at World Cups, like various teams started like bringing me snacks because they were just like, you're so amusing. Like you always study, even in between DE's.

SPEAKER_01

And I was like, Nah, you're glad you're amused.

SPEAKER_03

I was like, glad you're amused. Um, but then yeah, like qualify for Paris. Like, I knew that I was gonna retire after Paris no matter what, like, because I wanted to start making some money, finally finish school. Um, but like going into Paris, I knew that it was gonna be my last event, and I really feel like because of that, I made the the most of it, and like I had, you know, it was very I cried a lot, like I was very, very sad when I retired. But my last bout um that was anchoring against Egypt for the seventh or eighth place. Also, we we like won. So like I know it was only seventh place, but like I can say that I finished my career with a win at the Olympics. Um, but like I remember like I finished and like I was going up for that bout and I was crying already. And the girl who I was fencing, the Egyptian, was like, Why are you crying? I was like, This is my last match ever. And she was like, Can I talk before the bout? Because I was like clearly crying, and I think she was like, Oh, like, are you okay?

SPEAKER_01

Are you okay?

SPEAKER_03

Like, are you just like really upset that you didn't medal? Like, what's going on? Um, like you're winning this bout, like we're losing by 20. Like, what's happening? Um, and she was like, Oh, can I hug you? And then like I finished my match, and like I knew where my family was in the stands, so I saluted them and I actually got a standing ovation from the crowd.

SPEAKER_00

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03

Um, which only made me cry harder. But it was like a really great moment. Um, and so and I retired this last time I fenced. Um, but now, like I said, like I uh you know, I want to go into sports medicine. Um, I'm at Sinai, which is USA Fencing's partner hospital. Um like I want to work with fencers. I want to better understand the nature of fencing injury, the nature of fencing biomechanics, and like kind of really help athletes out the best I can, kind of from a medical perspective. So I would say like in a very large nutshell, that's my story.

SPEAKER_00

That's cool. That was a very concise telling of your fencing career.

SPEAKER_03

I had to write residency applications. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How long was your fencing career from start to finish? What what year did you start?

SPEAKER_03

I started when I was nine, so that was 2002. 2002. And then I retired in 2024. Yeah, it was a long time. It was a long time.

SPEAKER_01

Twenty-two years condensed into like six minutes or something.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Wow. There you go.

SPEAKER_01

Wow, good job. Yeah, thanks. You're accepted.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks. Yeah, no, what?

SPEAKER_01

Uh you said you practiced for No, I'm already in the residency, but like I had my story very well like packaged. Well, we would have accepted you if that was. Absolutely. Yeah, squad. So in that story, there had to have been a moment where you decided to go from I like this, I'm winning, it's fun, this is enjoyable, to everything is sort of revolving around this goal. And that all in moment is something that we love to have our guests elaborate on. And sometimes it's a series of moments.

SPEAKER_03

It can be No, I actually get asked about that a lot, but the quite honest answer is that like it was just like I love this, I want to keep doing this. Like, I didn't have a moment, and like I was I had a very fortunate career. I guess I don't know if fortunate's the word, but like I was I was like always ranked number one in whatever age group that I was competing in. So I was it was always it was never like oh, like I gotta lock in. It just was always like, oh, like I'm loving this, I'm training hard. Like I always like I like working hard, like even now, like since I retired, like I started running, like I run marathons, like I train. Um, like it's just like I'm like a sheepdog, like I need to be exercised. And so like I loved fencing and I like just enjoyed it. So I didn't mind doing it more. So it really was never like a it never was a question that I sat down to contemplate. It was always just like this is the next step. Like, obviously, I'm gonna take it.

SPEAKER_01

That's a pretty I don't think we've ever gotten that answer. No, we haven't got it. 28 episodes. I don't even know. I think this is some of them are you and me talking to each other, but we've had quite a few episodes and no one said that yet. So thanks for that. Well, I had to be originalized drive. Yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_00

I like it. Sorry. Went blank for a second there.

SPEAKER_01

I'm back. Um I usually hijack the pod. Every time I look at him, he goes blank.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you put you put too much pressure on me. This is a good exercise in dealing with pressure. Yeah, but I don't have to talk. I'm taking over. Go for it. I bought you time. I know you didn't have anything here.

SPEAKER_01

We've participated in your career in multiple of those moments, right? As a training partner, as a team member on a world championship team representing Team USA abroad. And we've even gotten to help out with some of your studies. Yeah. You know, I and helped gather other participants. And oh yeah, I took I took the survey once or twice. Yeah, well, not just a survey, there was some stuff at NACT. There was the lunging, there was the biomechanics, yeah. Really cool, and I'm sure that the deeper you get, the more we'll get a chance to do some of that. And it's it's really cool to see that passion travel off the strip as well. Um, let's touch on Paris a little bit, and then we can kind of work our way back. And um, so Paris was really intense for a lot of team USA. We had a lot of ups, a lot of downs, a lot of crying. And I know that Woman's Epe was a really strong team, a mixed team, and we missed out on those expectations. And you mentioned that that happened as well in Tokyo, and Rio was a little bit more of like, oh wow, we can actually do it, so we we'll throw that one out for a sec. But the last two Olympics, um it's such a huge accomplishment just to get there, and we're not trying to this isn't a matter of consolation, but after having accomplished such a huge milestone just by getting there, having other goals that are you know you it's like a false peak, then there's this other huge peak you want to get on top of. Not making that and still having to reconcile the fact that like you've done some something incredible, but there is all this stuff that you knew you could have done that you didn't amount to, and you don't get another chance at it. What what has that been like? And what is it like returning to Earth and being a person and setting new goals?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, uh I'll handle them sequentially, I suppose. So, like with Tokyo, I mean, there were so many factors that kind of went into that. I mean, the pandemic threw everything off. Um, and then the year before the Olympics, there was a passivity rule change um with the addition of the cards. We didn't have that before when we won world championships, and we really used the old passivity rule very, very well. Um, and then the year of the Olympics, they went and changed, and so I think that that really upset our strategy a bit. Um, and then you throw the pandemic in there, and like everybody had different training situations, not just in the US, but around the world. Everybody had different levels of preparation going into that games that was not how it otherwise would have been. Um, and I think that we didn't have a chance to work together as much as a team leading up to the games because we like had to isolate. And then the games themselves, you know, we were like on a US military base in lockdown before, and then we were like at the Olympic Village and like couldn't see anybody, and the pressure was much more like I just don't want to get COVID and I just want to be able to compete. Um, and then I I think it's worth mentioning that there was like the whole Alan Hadzik stuff like hanging over everything.

SPEAKER_00

Um if you had to deal with that, I remember talking to you about this.

SPEAKER_03

Uh yeah. So uh Ari has now taken the mantle, the mantle, but I was chair of the athlete council at the time. Um, and without boring everybody too much, essentially, like, I'm not gonna rehash what all went down, but Alan had a Safesport allegation against him. Um, he was initially banned from the Olympic team. He appealed, he was let back on the Olympic team. Um, and uh like the US Olympic Committee and USA fencing, there wasn't much they could do about it. Like they were kind of like very much at the neck by Safesport. They had to let this man compete. Um, and so they made a safety plan where they're like, okay, we're gonna keep him out of the village, like this, then the other thing. Very hard to execute. But again, I I will applaud USA fencing and the USA Olympic Committee for for trying to keep him out. Um for for those who are listening, I've been on the board of USA fencing for a long period of time, so bear with me. But so what makes the US Olympic Committee the US Olympic Committee and USA fencing, USA fencing is something called the Ted Stevens Act. Ted Stevens was a senator from Alaska, um, and so it's actually a piece of federal legislation um that like sets. US Olympic Committee, you are a legal monopoly over the like rights to send people to the Olympic Games. And under USA fencing, you have what are called NGBs or national governing, or sorry, under the US Olympic Committee, you have NGBs or national governing bodies. That's like USA fencing, USA figure skating, USA taekwondo, what have you. The right to compete is like if you qualify for a team via like the strict qualification standards set forth, like blah, blah, blah, you have a right to compete unless like you commit a felony, you do these things. And so it gets into somewhat murky area. But in the US Olympic Committee's um bylaws, they change right to compete to right to participate. And so Alan said that by not being allowed to stay in the Olympic Village, the U.S. Olympic Committee was violating his right to participate in the Olympic Games. So he filed what's called a section nine, a section nine is a violation of his right to compete, um, saying I should be allowed in the village. Um, so a lawyer contacted all of the athletes um and were like, look, Alan is doing this. You guys are affected parties, you have a right to say something. And this was like two days before the opening ceremonies, and fencing is the one of the very first events. So everybody was like, Well, we don't want him in the village, but we have to focus. So since I was chair of the athlete council, I felt somewhat obliged to try to take the bull by the horn. So I was like, Well, what if we write a letter? Um, and so again, skipping the details, the letter turned into me having to testify at a hearing for Alan to let him into the village or not, like a day before the opening ceremonies.

SPEAKER_01

So, how many days before you were competing?

SPEAKER_03

I was the I competed the day after the opening ceremony.

SPEAKER_01

So this is 48 hours before your Tokyo Olympic debut.

SPEAKER_03

Correct. Um, and it was an intense, like he had like three lawyers. Our lawyer hadn't talked to me, so I was like, Oh, I have to like swear an oath. Like, this is like, thank God my mom's a lawyer. So I was like, okay, this is like a cross-examination. Like, all right, I did not drink alcohol last night, mummy. Um, but it was very intense. Um, and I would be lying if I said I wasn't like very emotionally shook by the whole experience. Um, needless to say, this is all riding on the coattails of COVID. Correct.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So like a lot going on.

SPEAKER_03

There was a lot going on.

SPEAKER_01

I was you have to wear a mask for this whole process, too, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I remember Annabelle Ruman was one of our teammates, like knit these masks for us. It was actually very cute. But anyway, Tokyo, a lot was going on. Um and so I think that, you know, we had a lot of goals. I had a lot of goals going to Tokyo, and like for many, many reasons, I was devastated after that. And again, it wasn't just because of the fencing. It was like a lot of things coincide. I think that was why I was like, I can't retire. I think there was a piece of me that wanted to, but I felt like I had I couldn't leave fencing on that note. Like I just loved fencing so much that I was like, this is not how I want to end. Like it was a crappy way to end a career. And so I think building towards Paris, yeah, I'm not kidding when I said that uh like fencing and med school at the same time was very, very challenging. Um, like if I I mental breakdown is not the right word, but I struggled. I struggled. Um, like I started therapy, like I've I've been on meds, like it's been very, very helpful. Like I'm a huge advocate for mental health and sports. I think more athletes need to speak up about it. Um, but it was really hard. I mean, it like it really, I mean, it it broke me and I had to I had to repair a lot. And I I managed to do it. I, you know, graduated graduating medical school at Hall of Fire for the Olympic team. But I think by the time I got to Paris, like I was burnt out of everything. Um, and I wanted to compete at the Olympics, I wanted to be at the Olympics, but I almost didn't want to fence at the Olympics, if that made sense. Like along the way, it was the first time that instead of fencing for the love of fencing, I was like fencing to make a team. Um, and it it it I felt that like fencing for the sake of like having to qualify and my you know have to qualify for this was not fun. I didn't enjoy it. I lost a lot of love for the sport. Um, and so by the time I got to Paris, I was like, you know what, this is my last like hurrah. Like, I'm gonna put everything out there. I'm gonna really enjoy it. And we'd had a lot of ups and downs as a women's epit team, like over the course of that quad. Like, we certainly had a chance to meddle, but I knew that the chances were not super high. Um, and we didn't, and like I was upset, but I I think at that point I'd had enough perspective to be like, this one moment does not define my career. Um, you know, I I've been on so many teams, I've done so many things. Um, like this one moment, like, you know, I don't have an Olympic medal. Do I want one? Yes. Would I like to be an Olympic Olympic champion? Obviously. But I think, you know, the body of my career more speaks to the heart and soul that I that I put into it. And so I mean, I I came back from Paris and then started, you know, my medical school rotations three days later. So kind of the same story. Um, but I think that like fencing in so many ways has shaped my life, the trajectory of my life. Like it's it's not just you know me on the strip, but you know, I've been very involved in USA fencing, chair of the athlete council. I've been on the board. Um, and I I I it's so much a part of my life, even still, even though I I haven't fenced since Paris. So I I don't really have any regrets about my career at all. I wouldn't I I wouldn't redo medical school and fencing at Santi Time One Time was enough, but I don't regret that I did it. I think I came out learning a lot about myself, um, and like actually with my feet more firmly planted on the ground than ever.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks for sharing. Hey, there we go.

SPEAKER_00

Going back even further, you you touched on how that Rio Olympics and sitting there with a team and being like, oh, we actually can adjust and we can really make a run for this. And then fast forward to 2018 when you won the world championship. What what were the changes that took place? How did you guys level up actually execute that level up and like succeed in that way?

SPEAKER_03

So going into Rio, um we had never beaten Romania. Um they ended up winning Olympic gold. Like I remember we were fencing them with the last World Cup before the Olympics. We were in Buenos Aires, and we were going into the anchor bout 40 to 11, and we were like, let's just get to 20. Um and we were like laughing because it was just and like bron for bronze or Popescu for those who have followed fencing for a while, it was like backflicking Courtney, and she was like losing her mind, um, which was kind of funny, but kind of not.

SPEAKER_01

Um backflicking a woman's epic is pretty crazy. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I mean getting it. I mean, it wasn't even a backflick, like it was like I will give Braun, like she was a gorgeous fencer and like she knew how to get in people's heads, but she would like jump over Courtney and like backflick her. It was like it was something. Anyway, um, so but before Rio, we did like a lot of work. Like we were all in Houston. We fenced you a lot, and we won't curse on on public podcasting. You can if you want to.

SPEAKER_01

You can curses all the time.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that makes me feel better. Fuck it. Um, but we can cut that part out. Um, do as you will. But anyway, we sp we did a lot of video review, like really focused. We did a lot of bout simulations, and we went in, like I said, we only lost an overtime to Romania. And we were like, oh wow, like that really worked. Like that was amazing. Focus preparation. Um, and so I think we played around with a lot of different bout orders, and Courtney was really burnt out of being anchored, like she'd anchored that team forever, and she just didn't want to do it anymore. Kelly never really wanted to anchor, bless her soul. She would do it, and she would be like, I just don't like it, but okay. Um, she tried so hard. Um, and so finally Andre was like, Fine, you try. Um, and so I like I had a lot of apprehensions about anchoring because at Junior Worlds, my uh Tantuccio boat.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, Santuccio bow.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, it was the worst bat of my career. My last year of juniors.

SPEAKER_01

What year was this? 2013 Porridge. Yeah, I was cheering so hard from the stands.

SPEAKER_03

I like froze. It was so like I went into anchor bout up by six against Italy for a bronze medal, and I got out scored like 20 to one. Like it was brutal. Like it was just like rough. It was rough. It was the roughest that was probably like in terms of like actual fencing, the roughest bout, the roughest moment of my career. And so everybody was like, Don't worry, you'll never have to anchor again. After that, I was like, Oh, thank God. And then Andre was like, I think he had been there, and Andre saw me get terrorized, but was like, eh, you try. Um, and then we started winning a lot of shit. Um, and so I think Courtney was very relaxed because she wasn't in that like really stressed position. Um, and Kelly was set up, and Kelly and I just had great communication. Like Kelly, like, if I needed two points, Kelly was like, I got you, and would just go do it. Like, I didn't even need to watch, like I just like trusted her so implicitly. Um, and then I think that I had grown, I mean, I had grown in like the you know five years between the Santuccio bout, um, and and that. And I just like was like, I'm gonna practice being an anchor every single day, every single bout. And I worked, I'll give Andre credit, might have beef with the man now. Um, but like Andre and Sebastian just worked with me. And I I think that like you know, I was never individual world champion, never won a team medal, but I think I I think at one point I probably was the best anchor in the world for like a little minute.

SPEAKER_01

And like that worlds that you guys won, you were the best anchor in the world. How many priority bouts did you win? Three?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's the amount of immense pressure. Being the best anchor in the world does not mean that you're going plus 10 in each team. No, I was not. It just means that every single time when the bout is on the line, you carry your team across the finish line. And you, the fact that you did it three times in a sudden death overtime at World Championships, at the very least, Kat, on that day, that fateful day in Wuxi, China in 2018, you were the best anchor on the planet.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I I'd done uh my senior thesis in in college. I I was like, huh. So I lost an overtime at the Olympics in Rio, an individual. And like every touch I'd scored, I'd scored attacking. And every time I got hit, I was defending. I lost an overtime and I was like, I should attack. And then I defended and I lost. And I was like, hmm. So I was like, well, what is what is the optimal action in fencing? And so like I watched many, many, many, many overtime bouts. Um, thank you, David Blake. Um, and it it turns out that like if you look at one-shot situations, like attacking will score 60% of the time as opposed to defending. No, I'm not looking at actions here, just globally. And so then I was like, all right, like do fencers actually do this. So long story short, I like made a little computer game that like simulated this. I had fencers and non-fencers do it. Um, and fet like each game had a like a rule. It was like you were fencing an opponent and you could choose to attack or defend. And like in different games, you were like awarded more or less points depending on the rule. And the rule was always trying to get you to attack a certain amount. And fencers did not learn the rule as readily as non-fencers, supposedly because they come in with biases they learn from fencing. Saber fencers actually didn't count, they just like attacked.

SPEAKER_00

They just attacked, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but so I was like, okay, like I should, I like I I have this bias to not attack because there's this theory in behavioral economics that losses loom larger than games. So like if I have a coffee cup, um yeah, thin games, thing games. But if I have a coffee cup and like I have this coffee cup, I'm like, whatever. I have a coffee cup, but then you take the coffee cup from me, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The coffee cup suddenly has more of what we call utility.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So if you try to take the coffee cup from me, it is more utility than if I just like get this coffee cup. Anyway, same kind of applies to sports, like losses loom larger than gains. Like the point that your opponent scores against you has a higher negative utility than the point that you score against your opponent. Anyway, long story short. So I was like, self, we will attack. Um, and so I just felt very confident in my strategy. And it's actually funny, like I was so much calmer fencing those bouts, and I I watched them in hindsight, and I get so I know what happens, like I know I win. I'm like so nervous. But like I remember especially in that bout against Korea, we I fenced this chick named Choi to win the world title, and I was like, Oh, I'm gonna win. Like I was so confident. I was like zero percent nervous, and then I won, and I was like, Yeah, I knew it.

SPEAKER_01

I love smart people, yeah. You used psychology, game theory, game, not even theory. Like economics.

SPEAKER_03

I actually use Nash Equilibriums to get around.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's literally so you used economics and psychology and computer games to engineer a winning strategy for overtime situations in fencing.

SPEAKER_03

And my overtime win strategy, like from then until the end of my career, like skyrocketed.

SPEAKER_01

Steven and I were just talking yesterday about winning strategies in fencing. And the universe speaks to us, Steven. We gotta really lock in on this type of stuff. Yeah. This is Steven was talking about, oh, I don't want to be just one of those people that gets up and then goes to the back of the strip and is just like, oh yeah, you know, and then you know what's gonna happen. But those people win because they have a strategy and they follow the strategy.

SPEAKER_03

You just have to follow your strategy.

SPEAKER_01

This is so boring. We were talking about crave. There we go.

SPEAKER_00

We were literally we had this conversation yesterday.

SPEAKER_01

It depends. What do you want more? Do you want the variety or do you want to win? And that's really where this is coming out. Thank you, Kat. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_03

Nobody's watching you fence, Steven.

SPEAKER_00

No, I know.

SPEAKER_03

Nobody cares.

SPEAKER_00

And like we've had the I've had this conversation with Soren too about like, you know, there's a way to fence where you like pick your shots and you're like, I'm gonna set up as an ugly, like, non-technical fencer.

SPEAKER_03

I never had that experience.

SPEAKER_01

It's a great perspective to have because you won a lot more than Steve than I have. Look, you're laughing, but it's true. Steven and I, we've both won a bunch of bouts. We've also lost a bunch of bouts, and a lot of those losses that we had, you were in the same situation and turned it into a big fat W.

SPEAKER_03

To be fair, we probably also have the same number of losses because you always like I might have more wins, but like if you don't win a competition, you went on a loss.

SPEAKER_01

You probably went straight for straight through from pools a lot more. Oh, I did, yeah. I was also top 16 for a while. Yeah, so yeah, we go. That's we we had more losses. Maybe but yours weighed much more heavily on you because of the same psychological stuff we just talked about, even though it's all a loss, but the the negative utility from those losses probably weighed much more heavily. There's more at stake. Anywho, just kudos to you, Kat. That's really it's really cool to hear about the behind the scenes of the change that we only saw from a distance.

SPEAKER_03

And we were a child at the time, so we were in college.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, in 200 years older than me. No what? How old are you? I'm born in 1996, my friend. And you are born in 1993.

SPEAKER_03

I definitely thought you were a lot younger, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01

No need to apologize. How older are you? I was born in 99. That checks out.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that checks out. Yeah. Somehow you seem older than me.

SPEAKER_01

Because I talk a lot.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I knew you were younger than Kasha. Yeah, I exhibit childish energy.

SPEAKER_01

I'm older than Kasha.

SPEAKER_03

Weird. You're older than my sister.

SPEAKER_01

Here we go. You've known me forever, Ken.

SPEAKER_00

And you're still that nine-year-old boy. Yeah, yeah. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01

But anywho, it's really cool just to hear about how conscious you were of the change that you were making. And even more importantly, something that Steven and I have talked about a lot, and just in general, is really challenging in any pursuit in life. Tactical commitment to be committed to that while you're facing the wins and losses, and just understanding that in order to better understand that you better understand. Understanding that to get the most valuable info from this, you're gonna have to commit to it. It's so important and so impressive. And kudos. So thank thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_03

Well, my first coach was always just like arm higher, arm higher. Shout out to Ray and Jean Finkelman. And so, like something to that. Like when stuff shit got bad, I was like, arm higher. Like, you know, it's just it's it all fell back upon that, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Commit to the strat. Yeah, you can get your hand higher than the other person's. You're you're they're not gonna out hire you. It's impossible. Correct. Um so does this attacking strategy carry over? Like, you just studied it in overtime situations. What do you think the implications are in like uh the whole bat?

SPEAKER_03

That's really complicated because there's so many different factors at play. Like, are you ahead? Are you behind? What's the point? Spread. That was why I didn't look at that because just like I was using like math, literally the Roscorla Wagner learning model. I was like, I did not know how like my I'm not that good enough at math to figure that out. So that is something, a problem that I'm still not good enough at math. Maybe like the robots are, I'm not, so I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00

Like I think you should take a break from being a doctor and just do fencing theory. I think.

SPEAKER_03

I need money. Yeah, there was no money. I I I kind of scraped a living by with fencing.

SPEAKER_00

I think with fencing theory, direct elimination's gonna start a fund. We need the direct elimination fencing theory fund. Cat needs underlings.

SPEAKER_03

I need underlings and we need you know give me your coding skills because right now it's just me and Claude. It's just me and Claude right now. But I don't know what I don't know, so I don't know the right questions.

SPEAKER_01

But Claude knows all.

SPEAKER_03

I know, but you have to ask Claude intelligent questions, and I don't know the questions to ask.

SPEAKER_01

That's true. That's true. Anyways. I think it's really cool to see how analytical you were about your journey. And all the while during that time that you were so focused on making these changes based on data, you were still just enjoying the sport. That was before this you know, perceived burnout started to kick in. And it's really awesome to hear about how balanced that was. Do you think that pursuing it from that data perspective, given what's happened in the rest of your life from an academic view and whatnot, do you think that helped keep the fire ignited? You know, because it allowed you to approach the problem in a different way.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I mean, I think I was always curious about like optimizing performance. It's something that has not been studied in fencing. Um, you look at a lot of other sports, um, swimming, track and field, like there's so many papers published about optimizing performance and optimizing training. Like there's actually like work, like prescribed workouts. Like now that I'm running, like even I'm like mile repeats or like the there's something called like the Farklot or Fartlicks.

SPEAKER_00

Fartlicks. Yeah, like you know what Swedish for Finnish for speed play.

SPEAKER_03

Sure, yeah, speed play. Um, but like you like we've heard of them. Like for fencing, there's I mean, there's drills that you and I do, whatever, but there's there's really been very there's been no work really on optimizing performance.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and I think it's hard because Aladar's entire army takes offense.

SPEAKER_03

I sorry, Aladar's army. Um, James Call, Dylan Nolner, you can come talk to me. Um but um like there's been l very little scientific published work about optimizing performance in fencing. And it's hard because it's an open sport. Um, like it's so uncontrollable. Like what you do, what your opponent does. Like, I think fencing is a great sport in that sense that like as much as I like running now, I was never gonna go to the Olympics for running. Even if I like I popped out of the womb and my parents were like, you were born to run, like I was not.

SPEAKER_00

You weren't at the right frequency.

SPEAKER_03

I was born for feed, not speed. Like this, like I'm it's just impossible. Well, with fencing, I think it's a sport that really anybody could succeed at given the right situation, circumstance, and work ethic. Anyway, so I was like, okay, like given that like my 17-year-old brain was like, there's no information about fencing, what what can I optimize? And so like I started looking at things like nutrition, strength and conditioning, things like that. Like the best thing that ever happened to my nutrition was my biochemistry class in college. Cause I was like, oh, that's how metabolism works. Like, that's how carbohydrate, fat, and protein are all processed. And like, that's what I like. It was like, why is nobody ever talked to me about macronutrients until my biochemistry class? Like it was mind blowing. And then like I started focusing on my nutrition and like very much noticed an improvement in my performance. Like I started strength and conditioning, started like reading about it, got a strength and conditioning coach. Like, oh my God, it made a big difference in my performance. Like, all these things that like I think fencers don't. Really consider because it's such an open, such a creative sport, which is a great thing. But like there are very tangible things that you could do. So then, like, kind of as I was along my journey, my mind started moving to like, well, how can we improve fencing itself? And like, I am like, I'm not one that's gonna sit here and be like, here's like I've done drills, I can talk about drills, but in terms of like biomechanic health, in terms of like the little bit of like math that I can apply, like what can I do and what can I understand? And so, you know, it kind of started out with that thesis project. And then I think as I was kind of moving into a more medical space, like, how does the sport, and before I could even start answering these questions, I need to understand like how how does like what are the biomechanics of the sport? Like, it's actually shocking how little there's like a review paper out there. It was published, I think in 2021, that kind of like pulled like 20 or so, and 20 is loose because they included some stuff in there that I'm not sure necessarily trigger biochemics, whatever. The biomechanics of the sport, most of it's just about the lunch and about lunch performance, which is great, it's super important. But you know, I'm in physical therapy now because I have two herniated discs and a torn disc because I was like cantiletered forward and my pelvis was this way. Like, why is that? Is it actually sport specific? Does it help the sport? Um I don't know. Um, and so like I actually a couple summers ago I forced you guys to participate. Thank you. Um, I worked with Ohio State University, they have this really cool markerless motion capture setup um and captured like different fencing actions, um, not just footwork, but also blade work. Um and I actually just went out to the Mayo clinic with a former fencer who went to Sinai and is now uh plastics hand fellow at Mayo. So I was out at Mayo doing uh biomechanics of the hand and wrist study with her to try to understand like the basic motions of our joints when we fence. Um and so like because it's fencing sports med, there's not really any funding for it. So I've been like teaching myself all this stuff, which has taken a while, but finally actually hoping to publish this paper also on lunge biomechanics. Um but I didn't just look at the knee and the hip like everybody else, like also to the pelvis, like I also looked at the ankle, I looked at men and women across um this, so I guess it was like, you know, from your like your div3 fencers to your Olympic level fencers. Um and so looked at like a bunch of different variables and like found a lot of really interesting things. Like there's a reason that foil fencers tend to injure their hip a lot more. A lot of them have like those like labral issues. Um, it's because of the way they sit in the on-guard and then lunge and recover. Um, epe fencers are much more leaning forward, so we have more back problems. It's it's really interesting. It's kind of like all in that data. And that was just like one fencing action. Um, I have like a million more that I have left to analyze.

SPEAKER_01

You should do one on flesh.

SPEAKER_03

I have one. If there's anybody that has interest in this, please reach out because I have more data than I know what to do with. But you have to have some coding background. You have to know how to use MATLAB. Otherwise, sorry.

SPEAKER_01

Now Claude knows MATLAB.

SPEAKER_03

You gotta know how to use intelligently use Claude. Um, I will give you the data set.

SPEAKER_01

Most people that are listening to this, if they're under the age of 25, they can definitely more intelligently use Claude in this than we can.

SPEAKER_03

If you are interested, I can give you a sample data set and give you a task. And if you can do it, then we can talk. Um, but anyway, so like understanding the biomechanics to then understand why fencers have the injuries we have. Um, because you can't re you can say, oh great, we have these injuries, but but why? And if you understand why, then we can start to say, well, here's what you can do. The acute injuries are always gonna happen, but a lot of them are overuse. Like, how can you prevent those overuse injuries? Then once you talk about injury prevention, then you can use, well, okay, like if we're looking at these biomechanics, like this is like what Garrick Meinhart does, and this is what a 12-year-old child does. Like Garrick Meinhart moves differently than the child, but what is it about Garrick? Like, if we average all of the top fencers, how are they moving differently compared to the beginner fencers? What makes them more efficient? What makes them good? And you can say, ah, these are the mechanical properties of a good lunch, more efficient lunch. Again, there's room for creativity in fencing. Weird things work. I worked, but like if you're trying to look at mechanical efficiency, you can say these are the muscle groups you should train and the way that you should lunge. Um, anyway, so it all kind of spirals forward.

SPEAKER_00

It's awesome. I love it. I I love this kind of stuff. I'm not smart enough to like actually, you know, do anything with it or do understand it, do it, but I love it. And it it started just like healing one injury, just fixing my mechanics a little bit. And I was like, this is awesome. Uh we need more of this. So I will be eagerly watching and waiting.

SPEAKER_03

Well, that's good because I'm gonna have a lot of upcoming um studies so you can participate.

SPEAKER_00

That's how you can try and apply my IC basement.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I'm going to. We consent.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

unknown

Great.

SPEAKER_01

On behalf of the entire club.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Um, it's really awesome to see how your passion has carried over into serving the sport without you ever having to fence again. And that's probably really cathartic.

SPEAKER_03

It is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Quite good on you. Yeah. I hope there's a whole generation of biomechanically efficient fencers with their arms out like this.

SPEAKER_03

Me too. That was not biomechanically efficient, I will say, from from the get-go.

SPEAKER_00

We don't know yet.

SPEAKER_03

The studies are inconclusive. I haven't done that study yet, but I have a bunch.

SPEAKER_01

Until you do the study, though. I have the data.

SPEAKER_03

I just need to like actually look at it. Cards, a lot of data.

SPEAKER_01

Fair. Anyways, that brings us to our final and awesome, most awesome segment. Um, so at that world championships where you anchored our team to a historic gold medal, you won three crucial matches in overtime.

SPEAKER_03

Well, one technically wasn't overtime, it was by one point. But really, but in all three of them I came from behind.

SPEAKER_01

So in all three of those matches, in order to win, we needed to score a lot of single lights. And in order to score a single light, as you're very well aware, you need to be decisive, committed, no doubts, and follow through. So that's what this next segment is all about. It's called One Light Answers.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And the first answer that pops into your head, you just have to let it rip.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

All right. Similarly to a priority bout with Korea at World Championships.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

All right. Steven, take us away. Two favorite fencers all time.

SPEAKER_03

Popescu, definitely number one. Beautiful. So beautiful. Um Isabel de Tella.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, she is coming in for an interview tomorrow. Foreshadowing. Wow, did you guys talk?

SPEAKER_03

No, he told me.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, okay, okay, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03

But I did text her being like, You didn't tell me you were coming in the city.

SPEAKER_01

Shout out Isabel de Tella. Um favorite place, favorite city or place that you've gone to for fencing?

SPEAKER_00

Budapest.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Good answer.

SPEAKER_01

Common answer.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, what was in your equipment bag that probably shouldn't have been?

SPEAKER_03

I feel like I had a lot of stuff that other people should have had in their equipment bag that was in my equipment bag.

SPEAKER_01

Um you stole it all?

SPEAKER_03

No, I had like a full-on armory kit, like I had extra shoelaces. Like, I don't think there was actually anything in there. It was like a very utilitarian fencing bag.

SPEAKER_01

All right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Hardest fencing bout that you've ever fenced.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, we talked about this. It was like my bat was Santuccio. Like, and then like every bout with her that I ever fenced for the rest of my career.

SPEAKER_01

Did you ever get revenge?

SPEAKER_03

I did, yeah. Not actually, I won't, so I was fencing her in actually Budapest, actually, um, to make the four at a Grand Prix. I was down by one touch with like two seconds left. And I like launched myself off the line. And to her credit, all girl did was extend her hand. But oh my god, I hit my head so hard on her bell guard that I gave myself like a huge concussion. Um, I did not score, she scored, but I thought I'd scored in one, even though it was it was down one. So the best I could have done was tie, but I was like, I won. And they were like, no. And I was like, I won! And like she and her coach came out and were like, Holmes. I was like, I won! And the ref was like, medical, medical.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, thank you. That's awesome. Uh how did it feel to find out you didn't win?

SPEAKER_03

We're pretty demoralized.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay. So if you were down in an anchor bout and you scored four touches defending, would you still or and scored four to tie it up defending, would you still attack at tied 44-44?

SPEAKER_03

I mean, it it depended on what they were doing. Like it's very sea fencing is very situational. This is why one solution does not apply at all. However, if you do the same thing four times in a row, unless your opponent's like pretty dumb, they're probably gonna try to change it up. So at least probably like feint attack or something.

SPEAKER_00

I just wanted to see. I just wanted to test the the theory instead of.

SPEAKER_03

No, the theory doesn't always hold. Like, that's the thing about fencing. It's like a very it's like an open sport, it's very complex.

SPEAKER_01

That's where we have to make the decision.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

All right. Um, so during your time at the New York Athletic Club, you mentioned that you're very into strength and conditioning. You're one of the stronger, if not strongest, women's epes around. Is there a member of the New York Athletic Club team on the men's ebay side that you absolutely know you could dominate in an arm wrestling match?

SPEAKER_03

James Call.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah. Okay. Didn't even need to finish the question. I was gonna add a clarification. You can't say all of them. You got one of them. Okay. What was your best lift?

SPEAKER_03

I deadlifted 450 pounds.

SPEAKER_01

Nice. That is so awesome. And do you have any more, Steven? Because I don't I didn't prepare any more.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have any fun ones off the top of your head?

SPEAKER_01

Um, yeah. Go for it. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

I'm curious what you think is fun.

SPEAKER_00

All right. I I fold. I didn't have anything. I thought I had something. What was what was the best piece of fencing advice you ever got?

SPEAKER_03

Armire. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that's it. Final question. What's your favorite piece of pre-air equipment?

SPEAKER_03

Actually, I wore pre-air for like my whole childhood. That was like what my club had. Um, so the pre-air mask, I was a big fan. But I love Leon Paul forever until the end.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's fair too. Very fair too. Well, Kat. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

Well, Ari, Steven.

unknown

Hi.

SPEAKER_01

This is awesome. We knew because of existing relationships and banter that this was gonna be fun, but you knocked it out of the park, you killed it. I think your quick wit and your eagerness to just dive into your story and a lot of the details that you shared, whether it was painful, fun, you know, strategy-oriented. I think that will really benefit the people listening. And Steve and I, I I don't want to speak for Steven. I really enjoyed it, and it was cool to hear you share. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I really enjoyed it as well. Um, I really enjoyed feeling dumb. That was that was a good feeling.

SPEAKER_03

I did not intend to No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's good. You you never ourselves. We just we're propping you up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Not that you need it.

SPEAKER_03

You already have yourselves down when you prop other people up. You can prop other people up. We lift each other up together.

SPEAKER_00

I mean it when I say it. If there are any very wealthy people that are listening to this podcast and they would like to donate a huge sum of money to fund fencing theory research, I have found our chief head researcher, and we would love to take this off the ground. So feel free to reach out uh at direct elimination on Instagram. We're right here, we're right here. Um, but yeah, no, thank you so much for for running through your career for opening up about some of the challenging moments, uh, some of the moments that you know other people, just speaking from experience of doing this, like would have avoided. Yeah. Um that was really powerful stuff.

SPEAKER_01

The first one to really bring up controversy, and we thank you for it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Uh but really an amazing career. It was a pleasure to watch and to be a very, very small part of. And congratulations on everything. Congratulations on July 1st. Um enjoy your time.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Early congratulations for Cinco de Mayo.

SPEAKER_03

Daniel, I see. Before you would have had to have called me Dr. Holmes if we'd done this podcast after.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we'll do a follow-up with Dr. Holmes. But Kat, thank you so much for coming on to Direct Elimination. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, high fives.

SPEAKER_01

All right. Um, do you want to do some ads?

SPEAKER_00

I could do an ad.

SPEAKER_01

See, I'm not that suave of a guy. But when I'm wearing my Pure mask, I sure do feel like one. By Prior USA. Get grippy with edge.

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Ari Simmons

Host
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Stephen Ewart

Host