Royalist or Republican?

In an episode we recorded before the most recent gob-smacking revelations about the prince formerly known as Andrew, this week we delve into the age-old question of is it worth having a royal family?

Are they fundamentally different to normal mortals, or are they just the same as us but rolled in glitter? 

What, if anything, do they contribute to the country and would the whole shebang collapse if we got rid of them?

Did old Oliver Cromwell have the right idea when he snipped off King Charlie’s bonce?

The peasants are revolting.

Yes, they are!

And because we’re feeling generous we’ve got a particularly gooey Wenglish Word of the Week, and a couple of rebellious cultural moments.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:17

This is Whose Coat Is That Jacket? Old Friends, New Conversations. With me, Morgan James, and her.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Reality Brack. Hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Hello, how are you? I haven't seen you for ages.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

I know we've had a bit of a we've had a bit of a rest from each other. Rest is the wrong word. Break is also the wrong word. We just haven't seen each other for ages. We've had a rest. Respite.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Rest fight. I think that's what you call it.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I did like your it was a very sultry hello then. I forgot it was hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Hello, darling. Hello. Um I can do it when I want to.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Um you can when you you can turn it on when you need to. Yeah, we've had a bit of a break, haven't we?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Yeah, you've been on holiday. Another holiday? You are just set in all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

No, I have. We've been away, which is uh we've been very lucky. We've been to um I mean for a week to Portugal, which is gorgeous. A friend of ours has got a house um which all sounds very grand. They've got a lovely little house on the Algarve, and she's a very dear friend of mine, Carrie. Shout out to Carrie and Neil, uh, who I love dearly. And they encourage you to go? They're like that. No, you've got to give us dates to go to you. We can block it off on the calendar because they rent it out when they're not there. And um Michael's kind of I love it as well, but we both kind of fall in love with it. It's a bit of a kind of spiritual retreat, if that makes sense. He's in this tiny little um fishing village along the Algarve called Ferragudo, and um to be sitting on a beach in the high twenties uh and it's not in the height of summer is just lovely.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Oh, sounds gorgeous, gorgeous. Yeah, I I've never fancied winter sun, though. No? Oddly enough, no, I've never been to um a hot place in the winter. I've always wanted to go in the summer and gone in the summer, and the idea of having winter sun never really has appealed to me.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Even though it's warmer, it's still winter there, so the light is different. So you have, you know, the sunsets are earlier. So even though the days are hot, you still have this lovely wintery light about it. I know that sounds bizarre. It's not like beating beating sun from you know, sunrise to sunset. It just g you have this lovely heat. I find the vitamin D is good for my skin and psychologically good as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Oh yeah, yeah. You're one of those people that has what you call sad.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

I think I do a little bit, yeah. Yeah. I don't enjoy I don't mind the winter leading up to Christmas because there's so many events and there's so much light trimmings, fireworks, god knows what. Do you know what I mean? I find January, February, March Find them hard.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

I do find them hard. I'm trying to embrace that time of year for what it is.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Are you?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah, that's what I try to do. Because I used to be the same. I'd be like, oh my god, January, I just hate it. And I I never minded February so much because it was my birthday um at the beginning of the month. And then once you get into March, you'd be like, oh, spring's around the corner. But you know, January can be a a little long month as well, isn't it? It seems so long, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. But I'm trying to the last few years, and it's working actually, you know. I'm just oh it's a new start, new uh embrace embrace what it is. It's dark, it's combs, but it won't last forever.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Isn't that hugger? Do they call it hugger or higger?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Something like that. I think yeah, when you when you do cutchup.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Cutch up, you do.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

You do cutchup.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Lights a candle.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah, so you're leaning into it rather than fighting against it.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

So normally our whose coat is that jacket question is uh a hypothetical, the kind of thing you and I would sit around the dinner table and debate into the early hours with several bottles of wine. Um we we have fun debating, we don't necessarily come to a conclusion. Most of them don't have conclusions. Um but I thought this week, as it was my turn, I'm gonna do something that is uh very culturally appropriate. Or a question that a lot of people are asking. At the time of recording, this whose coat is that jacket question seems to be on everybody's lips. Because we're witnessing quite a uh extraordinary piece of history in this country. So my whose coat is that jacket uh question to you today. Rihannit, uh Royalist or Republican?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Ooh, this is the perennial whose coat is that jacket question in the sense of A-level history, right? So when I used to teach A-level history very, very long time ago, and indeed when I did A-level history myself, one of the things we used to teach was the civil war. And so the question I would always put to my students was which side would you be on? Would you be on the Commonwealth side, the parliamentarian side, or would you be on King Charles' side? You know, which is it do you think had the right argument? And Seller and Dieatum, I don't know whether you've heard of 1066 and all that. Yeah, a comic history book um published in I think the 1920s or the 1930s, is only a short little thing. And it sort of basically runs through a history of England, essentially, from like the Roman times up to the middle of the 18th century, 19th century, something like that. And it's like a school child with a bit. So the debate with the civil war was between the roundheads, the parliamentarians, the cavaliers, the supporters of King Charles. So the way this book used to put it was that the cavaliers were wrong but romantic, and the roundheads were right but repulsive. So the neither option is kind of perfect. There are good things about both sides. So my feeling about the monarchy situation, you know, when I'm coming at this from a point of view of historian, okay? That's how I identify.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, and that's why I thought, well, I thought about this, I don't want to interrupt you, but I thought about this. Is this, you know, normally we we do lighter topics and then thought, actually, no, you know, we get it. We're growing up as a podcast. We should have a little debate about this. And also I thought so, yes, you as a historian, how do you see this situation at time of recording with Andrew being stripped of every single title that he has?

SPEAKER_01 6:53

But it's a wider issue, isn't it? Of should we have a monarchy or not?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Um, but that that wider question is it calls into question uh our the status as a monarchy and are they bloody well worth it? And of course, the the argument that's always used, isn't it, is that think how much money they bring into the country with tourists. Think of all the Japanese tourists and the American tourists, and God knows what other kinds of tourists who are drawn to, I mean, England in particular, I'm not sure how much Scotland and Wales gets out of it, really. You know, they do bring in, they must do bring in a huge amount of tourism, which is very valuable to our economy, and I see that. And I also see the value in the tradition of it all as well. I mean, when King Charles was crowned, I watched that coronation and I actually found, and I didn't expect to find it moving, but I found it incredibly moving that I was witnessing a ceremony which in a thousand years had changed very, very little. And I do feel kind of proud of that as a British person, that we have that deep, deep history, which many other countries don't, you know. So I value that. So my heart says, my heart says, yes, keep them because of what they signify in terms of that deep, deep history, that deep tradition, and because of probably the value that they uh add to our economy through tourism and that kind of thing. But my head says, what an absolute travesty that we put a particular family just because of the accidents of their birth, that they are apparently seen as some kind of semi-divine beings that that we can't, you know, even inquire into how much they earn, you know, where does their money come from? And that they seem to be immune to a lot of the kinds of scrutiny that we put other public figures to. And we expect them to uphold these certain things, and then when they don't, call them down. So we ex you know, we we criticize them on the one hand for not being human like the rest of us. You know, that's the way Anne is thought of sometimes, isn't it? You know, or she's not human, she's whatever. And that is why people tend to like um William and Kate, is because they see more ordinary, like other people, you know, Kate won't be praised, wasn't she? But other than£40 dresses from River Island or wherever when uh she was engaged and married to William. But then when they do act like real people and have real flaws, we absolutely pull them apart. So we've expected them to be one thing, they can't be the thing that we want them to be, but also they are just you know ordinary humans, they are no different to you and I, and yet they have this immense privilege where they don't, you know, have to lift a finger, really. I mean, I know the late Queen, uh she worked like a Trojan, didn't she, up until the day she died, more or less. But as my father used to say, well, she never had to drop a stick in her life, did she? My mother always used to say, Oh, the queen mother's great. The queen mother, she's so upright at her age. And my father was like, Yeah, she never had to chop a stick in her life. That's why she's so upright, she never had to do anything, she never had to lift a finger, or she doesn't sit down and drink gin and walk the dogs, and you know, things like my life is better haven't, of course.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Um so, yeah, so my heart says I can see the value in them, and I would be sorry to see them go, but my head says, What the hell, what are they worth? Why have we got a family which we seen are supposedly so much better than the rest of us, which of course they they aren't? And then, yes, they must bring money into the country, but how much do they get from us as well? How much of our taxes are going to pay for their lifestyles? You know, how much of Andrew's 20-bedroom house that he's just given up, whatever it is, you know, we were we paying for that? Well, how much of it will we, you know, the civilist business that we as taxpayers contribute to? You've got to question that. And the other thing, of course, is you know, there are countries like France, for example, that got rid of their royal family. Italy no longer has a royal family, but their tourism doesn't seem to suffer. France's tourism doesn't seem to suffer. You can still visit Versailles and visit all these wonderful um sites that are connected with the French royal family, you know, Notre Dame, Saint-Denis, all connected with the French royal family. They've still got a fantastic tourist industry. Maybe the argument that our tourist industry would suffer if we lost them, or if we got rid of them, isn't actually that true. Because we'd still have those houses. We're not gonna knock down Buckingham Palace, are we? We're not gonna pull down Windsor Castle, those things would still be there for people to visit. And Wales, what does Wales get out of it from a Welsh point of view? I I don't know what we get out of them. I mean, you know, William is supposedly the Prince of Wales, but that's just a title, and that's a really offensive title, I think, to many Welsh people. And I find it more and more offensive the more I think about it. Yeah, I do, I do, because it's an imposition, isn't it? It's an imposition on us that we didn't ask for. I think very wisely they haven't gone for an investiture of William, like they did with Charles in 1969 or whatever it was when he was invested in Carnival Castle. Yeah, you know, so they haven't done that this time round. Um I'm glad because I think I'd be one of the ones protesting. If they did. Yeah, so I don't know. I mean, Scotland is different, isn't it? Because the English monarchs are also the kings and queens of Scotland as well. It's like a dual, well, it was a dual monarchy, and it's you know it's a single monarchy now, but I mean you can see how if you were Scottish, you'd you'd have more investment in the royal family. I mean, like our moral is in Scotland, for example. We always are told how much the royal family loves Scotland, and I think that's genuine. I think they actually do, they go to the Highland Games and all the rest of it, and they spend their summers up there. You see Charles knocking around in a kilt and all the rest of it. I don't feel as though there's the same attachment to Wales, however much they might put on a bit of a show, you know, and in the it might be internationals, isn't it? Like William is always supposed to be supporting Wales. Of course he is. I don't believe that for a minute.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

I want to go back to something you said earlier. There are royalists who think they are above us and they're naturally born with class and grace and elegance and all this stuff that is acquired and learnt. It's not natural at all. Uh, but also when they become flawed like Andrew, I don't think the problem with Andrew is that he's flawed. I think he's beyond flawed. Flawed would be somebody who, you know, has made a few wrong choices and uh or potentially is perhaps not as polite as they would be. Or I think what we've what we've seen now is the uh epitome of entitlement and the epitome of um never having to take responsibility or answer for itself and yeah, entitlement fundamentally. He's shown no contrition. There was that horrible, although it was just you couldn't take your eyes off it to interview with Emily Maitlist, uh, where again he showed no contrition, he showed no compassion, or he showed no sympathy or empathy for he's never once said he's sorry for the victims, or never once. He's just defended himself, you know, related to Epson as a businessman and his career. You know, there's something rather ghastly about it. Whereas I do think you've got people like, you know, one of the things the king and queen said or, you know, their thoughts are with the victims of the these crimes that are being investigated or that they have been indirectly connected to to his uh connection with Epstein. Um so I think it's not that we don't like to see their flaws, because Diana, if you think about it, we came in and went and just turned it on its head. There was this demure woman who always had her head slightly bent. And I used to talk about it with my aunt, you know. My aunt loved her, and my aunt loved the queen, not in a royalist way. I think she had respect for it, and she was that generation, but she used to scream at the television with the queen, take your gloves off. Because what she loved about Diana is Diana would touch people. And Diana talked about her flaws, but of course, you're right, uh people loved her for it, but then you had other people going, we don't want to hear about that. We don't want to hear life is hard for you guys. We want it to be perfect. Just shut up and just do the job. So you're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't, I suppose. If you complain how hard it is, who's gonna have sympathy for you?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

So they are damned if that I don't think it's with Andrew that he's flawed. I think it's he's a reprehensible character who's shown absolutely no remorse or contrition, even by association. He's not gone, look, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. And I think that's what society has kind of gone. This person's, you know, this person's revolting. Why is this person part of this um family? Uh in answer to your question earlier, they they bring in 1.7 billion a year.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Okay. Now I know that is a lot, but actually, it's not a massive amount.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

No, it's not a massive amount. That's what they bring in. Um and I was quite interested in the kind of arguments for and against. And the key arguments that keep coming up, and again, these aren't empirical, they're not kind of absolutes. Monarchies have actually proven to be the most stable form of government.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Countries with a monarchy, but they're not sorry to interrupt my darling, but they're not a government, are they? No, not that.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

No, but countries that uh have a monarchy tend to last a lot longer. It's it's better due to uh having uh it's an apolitical head of state. They're neutral, and what happens when you have an elected leader, they usually uh have a political bent. Monarchy is not or shouldn't show its political leaning whatsoever. It's also a constitutional safeguard, isn't it? It serves as the final stop against parliamentary power. So it's it's more likely to stop dictatorship unless of course you have a revolution.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I can see that definitely.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

But of course the downside is it's almost seen as a lack of democracy, because a leader somebody who's elected to be a head of state, uh that's the true definition of democracy. And there's an inequality to it. And I think the other thing that both of us have touched on it's outdated in many ways. You're born into this privilege and these incredible castles and properties, and it's also it's s slightly outdated. We're watching the the current series of Wolf Hall. And I you know, it's uh and like you, I I only did history A level, but you know, my heart is the same as you from a historical point of view. Keep the royal family, I love it. It's you know, it's part of our tapestry. But you kind of go and God, their ancestors fundamentally. We're a bit like the craze. If they didn't like you, they just killed you. Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, no. Absolutely. There's nothing refined, there's nothing elegant, there's nothing kind of superior about their ancestors, they just chopped your fucking head off if they didn't like you.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

So is it the case then, do you think, that the monarchy needs to be constantly changing to stay relevant? Do they need now, after this scandal with him, with Andrew, to modernize a bit more fast, a bit more a bit more quickly than they are doing?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah, and I think that I think personally this decision by the king is the right decision. I think what he's saying is in line with your criticism of their entitlement and mine, I'm with you actually. He's saying you've made this an untenable situation here by your connections and by your behaviour. And also not your behaviour in the past, but your behaviour to these claims where you've managed this. We're a firm, you don't represent this firm well at all. So actually you're no longer part of this. So I think the last time this was done it was the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917, am I right?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Where they don't know, I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

So they took titles from some distant, you know, uh members of the royal family because they had sided with the Germans during the war. They had they had shown Nazi tendencies. Oh, you didn't have the Nazis in 1970, did you?

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah, First World War that would have been.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

So you didn't have Nazi tendencies in the 1970s, but they had sided with the Gimme L SNA. Was it Bismarck, the First World War?

SPEAKER_01 20:31

The Kaiser at the start.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

So again, the royal family, you know, they they were all related.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

So the Kaiser and uh whichever the oh god, who's the king? George of Pifth in the First World War, yeah. Oh god, I should know that, shouldn't I? But I don't. Um and Saar Nicholas, they were all kind of related. They were all three cousins, second cousins, or because they're all somehow or other descended from Victoria, Queen Victoria.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

That that's what I love about these um, you know, very you know, make Britain great again supporters who think the royal family, yo, they're the epitome of British, you can kind of go, you only gotta go back about 115 years, and they were all living on the Rhine.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Yeah. They're definitely mongrels.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

They're defin exactly, they're mongrels. So I've never looked at them and gone, oh my god, they're so classy, they're so elegant, they're so I'm not surprised that probably one of them is really rude, the other one's a drunk, the other one's sleeping with everybody, the other one's they're human beings. I could have ordinary in an extraordinary situation.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Yeah, yeah. I mean, God. Well what do you do with that privilege though? Surely you know, if if you're born and brought up in such privilege, and nobody tells you no, essentially, from the day you're born, you're gonna become a bit of a twat, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Unless you try to give something back. You know, I th I think King Charles. has if you if you kind of uh look at his as a career he has tried you know uh he's incredibly environmental um I think William the same there they can't why would they deny their wealth? They're not gonna live in a bungalow on a street and go look I just want to live like a normal person from purely from a security point of view. But I think they try they get you know the Prince's Trust now the King's Trust. I think they have tried to right what do I do with this power, this entitlement with this position that I have um and all they can do really is represent charities and organisations. That's all they can do. But you know they and Yeah they don't go down a pit to crouch your father. They don't snap a snap a stick or break a stick on the right they haven't dropped a stick but you are seeing a lot of them who are committing to the roles that are thrust on them and going right okay then I will be present all the time and I will give my time you know I will give I can't imagine the shit the Queen must have had to sit through day after day after day after day after day. Can you imagine and look interested and be polite?

SPEAKER_01 23:13

So are you hedging towards keeping them then? Would you would you say uh Royalist rather than Republican? Is that what you are?

SPEAKER_00 23:21

It's really interesting because I don't know who any of them are bar the king and his siblings William and Harry obviously but I remember m Michael's mother used to get quite excited when um say Kate was pregnant or what they're gonna name the baby or it's you know they can't believe so and so's one and I'd be like who's Charlotte? I don't know you know I've no interest in the uh in the family tree whatsoever. I have historically and maybe that's because you and I are just interested in history. Yeah um I think they certainly the Queen and now the king and I do think William and his wife Kate I think they do an impossible job and that does not negate how I in see it all as entitlement and privilege the inequality of it when there are people starving people can't put the heating on in the house and again I don't think that lays at the blame of the royal family. I think they do an impossible job very well and so if they're gonna be there do the job. So when you see somebody like Andrew who just apparently sits in his twenty bedroom house just watching planes take off and land on TV at Heathrow on this live TV cam and laughing at a recent funeral and just you know become fat oafish gout ridden individual you kind of go no he shouldn't be there.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

And the king has acted and said you're out actually not only you're out you're not a prince that's no I I didn't think he could do that because as far as I understood it he's a prince by birth simply because he's the son of a of the queen.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

And he's still seventh in line but he's no longer a prince.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Well how the hell does that work then?

SPEAKER_00 25:11

He can't use the title.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

He can't I wasn't aware that that could be taken away from him because I assumed that was like his birthright.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

So that's why I was gonna ask you because the what was the it was the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917 was the last time it was done and prior to that and this is where you can correct me Henry VIII did it to um Mary and Elizabeth on the death of both of their mothers he took their royal titles away from them.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

He declared well he declared them illegitimate but I mean that was in the like 1530s or whatever when you could do you could do whatever the hell he wanted because a big old gap in it yeah yeah so nobody was questioning that decision. Yeah he just like decided to legitimise them as soon as they um you know first of all when he divorced um Catherine Ralligan and then when he got rid of Anne Boleyn but they still he still they were in the line of succession um like Andrew is I suppose he's in the line of succession they haven't stopped I mean I'm thinking of when Edward VIII abdicated so that was slightly different obviously because it was his decision to go in 1936. 1936 yeah 1936 and obviously he gave up so when you're when you're abdicating you are voluntarily giving up your title but he still remained a duke he was a royal duke he was the Duke of Windsor um and what her name his wife caused all the bloody festivities always a woman there's already a woman she was still the Duchess of Windsor wasn't she yeah so hasn't that proved they are trying to be progressive I think they are I think that's why he's done it why the king has done it is because he wants to put as much distance between him and Andrew as he possibly can.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

So it the only thing he can do really is to take his titles off him isn't it so he's done that is like saying well you know look I've I war he's no longer one of us for uh you you can't criticize me for his misdemeanours that's the way I see it I see it in that kind of cynical way maybe and that he had to do it didn't he you know and we don't know whether it was his voluntary action or whether he was advised into it or you know he may actually be thoroughly disgusted with him who knows we're never gonna know are we um I've heard that again this is speculation and again this is there you know this is a podcast we have no like most like millions of podcasts we're just having a little debate we have no information we're not proving anything but I think William has been very influential in this decision.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Well it's his legacy isn't it so you know he's probably thinking because Charles has been ill he's had health troubles he's in his 70s now isn't he Charles you know he could pop off at any time William is waited in the wings um so I guess he's thinking yeah maybe do it do it do it for me Dad.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

But also you know as you will know as a historian there was a very another historic royal moment recently when uh the first British or English king to sit down with a Pope since Henry VIII's time.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Since Henry VIII well they say since Henry VIII's time but Henry VIII and the pope never met. So even before then no I don't even know how far back you'd have to go for a king of England to have actually met a Pope.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

With a Pope and yet the headlines were Andrew so it's overshadowing everything they do.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Yeah or prayed with a Pope rather not met a Pope. Yeah well exactly it's tainted tainted a lot isn't it so if they I'm not surprised they wanted to get rid of him.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Well if they were the kind of old stuffy fern that we still can use as the argument to get rid of them they would just keep their heads buried and just it's gonna go away which is often what happened but I think they they're going no we so in a way there is a kind of change change in the mindset going no we we've got to move not not not um society doesn't move around us.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

We've got to move otherwise we are obsolete and I think you have seen that quite a few times I think when Diana died it nearly brought the royal family to the knees yeah that was a big change wasn't it definitely well when she when she as you said earlier when she arrived on the scene in the first place and did all her hugging of AIDS patients and you know all that business um it was very refreshing you know and and then yeah after the death so her entry and her exit both prompted change.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

And you know I think I was I didn't finish my point earlier I think I got way laid as I often do with my kind of Virginia Wolf stream of consciousness but I remember when she joined again I think it was my aunt saying you know they thought this woman would just be putty in their hands and she brought them to their knees. She really did.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

And I I've argued with a lot of people who are absolute Republicans who think she's the worst of them and I kind of go but actually she's kind of in your in your camp isn't she she's trying to kind of go flawed flawed get rid of this this this the other not the establishment but let's change it but then also you've got royalists who think you know she was um the best thing since I'd and others who can't but I'm always amazed at people who can't forgive Camilla Oh my God I know it's that it's between them isn't it why does everybody think that's the other thing that fascinates me about the royal family there are people who are so invested in them they feel it's part like I can't forgive what she did to Diana and you kind of go well if William and Harry can't care I can't bring myself to care but also if if the children of the woman can a complete stranger hundreds of miles away who gives a shit it's got nothing to do with you yeah yeah but that's the thing people do really live their lives don't they you know what I mean they are they treat them as though they are members of their own family in a way it's like as if they are members of their own family and their you know trials and tribulations their successes their highs their lows are as important to them as those of their own bloody family that's what I can't get over.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

But as I said earlier it's proven that it not only is the most stable form within government it's stable within society keeps society stable yeah there might be a lot to be said for that actually so are you are you hedging on the side of royalists then I'm not a royalist I don't see becoming a republic the answer to all our woes and certainly you know if we became a republic the royal family would have to be housed somewhere and they wouldn't be able to move on a cul-de-sac or somewhere where they could have neighbours who share the same driveway. I mean the security the secure for security for a star so it would still cost us billions of pounds.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

So I don't know there wouldn't be any security would there because who would you be keeping secure? You'd have to keep them secure they would still be pub people of uh public interest you'd have to he's not going to often live on and what didn't what's her name Margaret when she was alive didn't she ever on private island and all go and live there.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Must be what about you?

SPEAKER_01 32:46

We weren't going to come to a conclusion on this episode but you've asked the question so yeah yeah well I I I I feel the same really I can't imagine Britain as a republic it just seems the monarchy seems so much a part of our national identity and our kind of the way we project ourselves abroad in particular um that I can't see how it would work and then what would we do as an alternative we'd have to have a president would we because who would be the head of state we'd have to have a head of state and that just would open up a whole new kind of rooms who the hell do you elect as a as a president then you're that's going to be another politician that nobody likes or who the hell would it be you know like heaven forfends a bloody celebrity unless it was Stephen Fry or somebody I'm sure everybody'd be uh on board with that Stephen Fry and Helen Mirren or somebody like that they could be the president the president and the presidents but again that wouldn't suit that wouldn't suit the element of society that that doesn't share the same political and socio political leanings as Stephen Fry and Helen Miron.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Yeah but they'd have to be non-political I think it's impossible that's why the royals are terrible that's why it works for the argument for royals as a head of state because it's not a political position. It is simply ancestral and birthright. So it's nothing to do with how they think now I'm sure not many of them are gonna vote you know Corbin or Green or Charles would actually but or Plied but I've got a feeling most but you don't know you don't know you don't know why their values are do they actually have the vote no of course they don't they can't vote.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

They're not allowed to vote. I don't think so if they are and I'm wrong please message us on Insta whose coat is that jacket if you do think they can and we're wrong please put us right yeah I mean perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to vote because surely they'd vote Tory wouldn't they I mean I'm giving away my kind of mystical leanings there.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

I don't think many people are going to vote Tory going forward so I wouldn't worry about it. I think those days are gone.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Oh dear dear dear well yeah so we I think we've agreed with each other again but so we're edging on the side of royalism but a changed royal family uh up to date and modernise and evolved royal family. And if they want some advice you know you do life coaching. I do yeah and I can pop bollocks yeah so if they want any advice they know where to find us don't they about how this new constitution should work absolutely they can either get contact us on you know wherever you stream your podcast yeah they can just put a message or Instagram put a little message a little comment underneath and say we just you know just call in call in next Tuesday afternoon if you're passing if you're passing you passing me's castle yeah yeah or Buckenham that's up the road from me back oh of course it is yeah well as long as the flags fly and you know that they're there that the flags fly in I literally posted a birthday card to my sister in law at the back of Buckenham Palace this afternoon around the back is where you belong darling always round the back I'm always shuffling round the back I am treatment where that's where I belong in my place we've had that debate I think that one could have gone on for hours actually. Yeah we could have couldn't we could have because I was gonna say then who should we have as president?

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Come on let's sort this out let's rewrite our new constitution but I'm glad you didn't because I don't want this to be seen as some I don't want this to be some kind of militant episode as well as looking to what we aren't doing is looking to overthrow the monarchy in any way shape or form I think I like I like I think the king has made a decision good for him.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Yeah good for you Charlie boy good for you Charles you've stuck two guns well done love okay so moving on Wenglish word of the week um Rihanna the B brack and pass it on to you my lovely pass it on okay right so um you might be feeling a little bit under the weather sneezing um blowing your nose a lot um what have you got what have you got what's the contents of your handkerchief what would you call it what's up your nose what's that Lucas there what's your name Fred Snot snot but would you have said that when you were kidding or would you have said Nanny's got snobs up her nose which is quite fitting with our subject this week is I think that is most definitely a English if not a Welsh um term for snot so what English people would call snot I was brought up calling snobs and in fact I didn't know I did not know that that wasn't what everyone else in the country called it until I went to university in England and I can remember I I think what I was talking about I can't why we'd have to bring this cover up but I said something about snobs and the person I was talking to was like what what do you mean like they had no concept of what I was talking about because to them a snob is a is a snobby person somebody snobbish you know superior attitudes yeah not something you find up your nose yeah so and that was when I was a kind of a light bulb oh hang on maybe I'm using a word which is a dialect word which nobody else normally uses.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

It's funny because when you asked me the question then my instinct was to say snobs but I thought I'm not gonna say that because nobody understand it which is the nature of Wenglish word and we're oh my god I know but I that's my well snob because that but and then I thought you were gonna say boogie but that's just a Welsh way of saying bogey. Yeah um that's another one that's an allied one isn't it so we wouldn't have said bogeys no we said boogies we would have said boggies and boggies are you got a boogie up your nose you have buggy up your nose with the snobs snobs and boogies up your nose snobs yeah it's it's interesting that it's such an English word and yet within our culture growing up it's snob meant bogey snot whatever you want to call it bogey or or snob yes if you're gonna do an English translation.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

F you on us that came out it's not a Welsh word no not at all yeah it's it's an English word but we use it in a different context I assume I think that's what it is unless it is actually a Welsh word.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Oh you got snobs you got snobs a big noise you have give them a blow now kid yeah that's a great one but I supp it's a yeah it's a funny one because it's not it's not Welsh why I wonder why that ever came to pass.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Yeah isn't it the history of these words are like well how why when snobs who and what yeah snobs so I mean like Mike obviously is not a bali boy no he's from the wild west w is that something he would be familiar with I don't think he would you know no I don't think he would I'm gonna go after we're done recording I'm gonna ask him and say if I said you had snobs what would you think?

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Um I don't think he would that's an interesting one no I can remember my mother using it with us come here now let me wipe your nose you've got snobs yeah I can remember that vividly yeah that's just won't let me record it isn't it which is even more curious then w if it is if he doesn't know what I'm talking about how come this word made its way into Valley's dialect meant something so different to the definition which is somebody who's like elitist or looks down looks down their nose at some yeah a snobby nose you'd have a snobby nose yeah so maybe a snobby nose is isn't one that you look down past at people who are below you one filled with you got a snobby nose booggies yeah you got booggies coming out I think boogie we could have as well we can have we could have a hybrid we're English this week snob snobs and boogie snobs and booggies which of course if you said to somebody else boogie they'd dance yeah yeah exactly yeah so it's a real hybrid it is oh I like that that's my www for this week fantastic have you got a cultural moment I have got a cultural event and again at time of recording this is very very very in and it's not that far away from our from our um topic actually uh I may have mentioned Well I guess what it is yeah I may have mentioned it before in a different context yeah go on is a bloody celebrity traitor it is indeed the celebrity traitors go on then I've not got much to say about it really other than you know we're loving it. I don't think it works as well as the normal traitors because you know them and I think they're also conscious of their reputations, they're being on their best behaviour. Whereas I think people who've never been on TV or you don't know who the hell they are, they kind of tend to wear their heart on their sleeves a lot more. Whereas I think these people are at levels in their career where they're probably they're very aware of cameras, they're very aware what to say, what not to say. They don't really the whole idea of traitors is you go there at the round table. And you really kind of whereas they're all being very slightly me? And of course half of them are actors so it's hard to then say you're acting differently. Well I'm not acting differently it's just I'm you know you see me on the screen and I'm so there's all these layers of kind of nonsense. But it it's it's it's been a lot of fun and what in what it what it has proved and I think Stephen Fry knew this because he's in it Stephen finds it really really harrowing having to pick something it kind of breaks his heart when he gets it we're getting it wrong and David is trying to really look at this from a rational logical point and there is no logic three people are traitors and they're deceiving people. It's there's no logic to the you know you did that differently well that just may have been I did that differently in the moment doesn't make me a traitor or a faithful. Um but yeah I'm caught up in it. I've come to it a little late. I d I didn't join the masses. I'm watching it on catch up so I always feel slightly superior. But also because Michael likes to binge he wants to do next episode, next episode, next episode. But you've not watched any of it have you?

SPEAKER_01 44:18

I well I have watched a couple of episodes of this one because she's going populist kids I know my uh the only reason being my lovely son Ed he was home for a couple of days um a few a week or so ago and he's been watching it so he was watching it while I was in the room. Oh you could have to be honest no I did get quite interested in it simply because um and you were saying you don't you you prefer the non-celebrity children which I've never seen but the only reason I wanted to watch it was because you're like oh Stephen Cry. Oh you know when I came oh David Oli Show girl I like him and Nick Mohammed was on it with a million you know and you're like oh right okay and so you sit and watch it for a little bit and then you do get a bit intrigued about what the hell's going on um so I watched I think maybe one and a half episodes something like that while Ed was with us and then he went back uh back to work back home to Edinburgh and um I wasn't tempted to carry on. But it was entertaining how it's entertaining.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

And I'm more interested in this one in what happens when they so you know they do the round table or they do a challenge and then they go back and have food in various rooms around this beautiful castle. And I'm more interested I want to record the bits where the camera's not running and they're probably like that. So anyway well I worked with that she was a chicken bitch but that's what you get lost distracted from the game where you kind of go oh what are they really talking about before the camera's an actor whereas in the real life of the real life in the non-celebrity one you kind of go this is probably an enormous bonding um um moment for them because they are on this they're going through this situation but they're also in front of the cameras they've got a crew there they've got boom mics they've got it's probably incredibly exciting whereas it's normal for all these people and I wanted to know between takes if somebody's like that no I couldn't stand them. Absolutely couldn't stand them. So I get distracted by so in that way I kind of the game becomes less interesting. But I I am caught up in it. That's my cultural event of the week.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Anyway my cultural event or cultural moment of the week is is another TV programme. Yeah I know. You're going oh so popular something I don't recognize going very popular going so low ground um but it's darling auntie beebe so you can never go very low ground darling auntie can you um so I have been watching Riot Women have you seen any of that?

SPEAKER_00 46:58

No I have not said I've not seen it I'm a massive fan of Sally Wayne right I think she's a remarkable writer.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Yeah yeah so it's Sally Wayneright same woman who wrote um Happy Valley and several others but Happy Valley is the one I mainly know her for set in the same place I think I think it might be filmed in the same place Hebden Bridge. Hebden Bridge they're all up there last time uh Halifax Happy Valley was Hebden Bridge yeah they're all up there yeah yeah yeah that's obviously you know always it always looks sumptuous it always looks lovely lovely countryside surrounding and the town itself looks very stolid and you know stone built and you know sort of wholesome I don't know whether that's the right word but that's how I kind of think of it. But anyway so the premise is you've got this group of middle aged women I think there's about five of them all together and they're all really recognizable um actresses so like Joanna Stanlon is in it Tamsin Gregg is in it um Joanna Scanlon is kind of the main character. You've got um Lorraine Ash born on you yeah yeah um Amelia Bulmore is in it as well but she used to be in Coronation Street she used to be in coronation Steph, wasn't she Steph Steph and Des Barnes? Oh that's it, God that must have been just when I stopped watching it because I thought oh I recognise her yeah so they're all playing these 50 something women um one of whom like so Tams and Greg's character is a retired newly retired police officer um and uh Amelia Baumore plays her sister so they've got that kind of spiky kind of sister relationship a bit like sort of flee bag and her sister that kind of you know I love you but I hate you kind of relationship um and Joanna Scanland is a teacher um and then there's oh and the other one is uh a sort of a publican she owns a she owns a pub and then this other woman comes into the mix who's younger um and I'd never ever seen this actress before but I've been completely transfixed by her she's called Rosalie Craig and I think she's most known for doing musicals and that kind of thing um so she is um she's their singer and she's not known to the rest of them and Joanna Scanlon kind of rescues her rescues her and picks picks her up not in a sexual way but in a kind of you know a rescuing kind of way um so she's a very troubled character she's um in an abusive relationship and she's always drunk and she's you know sort of semi-dealing in drugs but not quite and all the rest of it she's always getting herself into terrible scrapes and all the rest of it but she's got this fantastic singing voice so she's kind of the one holding the rest of the band together because the rest of them oh I didn't say anything about the band did they so this I'm talking about the same voice in the band so what they all do is they get together decide they're gonna start a band right a band of these menopause women and that's their name riot women is the name of the band. Okay. So they're kind of you know angry about the way in which they feel invisible as as sort of 50 something women you know men aren't interested in them anymore and you know they they're not old enough to be lovely old ladies yet you know but like so they're irrelevant they're feeling irrelevant or they've got hot brushes or they've got recalcitrant children or you know parents with dementia who are getting themselves into scrapes and they've got to kind of balance the two things I've got to look after my parents got to look after my children I'm stuck in the middle nobody's looking out for me and just the anger that can come very often with being in that position. So it's really it's really really good. It's really good and there's good music in it as well you know I mean even though the the other four in the band are you know they're just amateurs aren't they they're not there to kind of really play but to this um other character Kitty played by Rosalie Craig she sort of brings them all together with this fantastic voice. I haven't seen the end of it yet so I don't know what happens but there's all sorts of other subplots as you can imagine like there would be with Sam Rainright you know so there's got there's a subplot about um an adopted uh child and Kitty's character um is the daughter of some really really bad northern gangsters you know who kind of terrorised the local community in the past and she's kind of have nothing to do with them and there's all these other different little subplots going on but it's it's a really good watch as you can imagine.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Yeah you know why do you think what is it about Sally Wainwright that touches the audience because you're right I think I loved last time going to Halifax. Um I think Happy Valley is possibly one of the greatest pieces of television in our of our generation or three series and each series delivered there was none of this kind of not as good as they are it has built and I think Sarah Lancashire is the if we were to become a republic we should become a president Sarah I don't think she'd like that but still um but um what is it about Sally Wayne Ratherything? Because you've uh not that you're but you're a woman of a certain age it can you can really relate to that but a lot of men love it as well it doesn't just focus on that target audience.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Yeah yeah exactly I mean I I never watched last time go in Halifax so I can't comment on that one but in terms of happy valley and this one as well it's just her characters are fabulous. She they are deep and rich and human you know I mean Sarah Lancashire's character in Happy Valley Catherine was it Catherine I think um oh my god she was just you would want her as your friend wouldn't you you know you'd want her on your side there's a warmth there a real kind of war and I don't know whether that's a northern thing or what um there's just a realism to all her characters and of course you know excellent props as well so she's got it all isn't she she's got really interesting characters the plots are quite twisty turny as well um and keep you guessing and and you know in fabulous locations she writes she writes sorry to interest she writes phenomenal um dialogue as well she really does there's not a piece of exposition in her writing I just think Sally Wayne write she finds their voices it's it's clearly must be wonderful to act it because um there's no superfluous language in her script yeah and with this one there are songs as well because the band write their own songs so even the song lyrics I don't know whether she wrote them as well but even the song lyrics are are interesting are good you know there's one song something like Just Like your mother or just like my mother or something like that and it's about you know complaining about when a husband goes oh my god you're just like your mother and so the woman is coming back saying yes I am and was my mother great she was all these things you know and then there's a list of I can't remember I can't remember the lyrics exactly right there's a list of things that her mother did and then it all ends up with yes I am just like my mother and thank god I'm not like yours you know even even the song lyrics even the song lyrics are really well written and they and you would expect that to be maybe a little bit cheesy. No but it's because it's not a real band but it's it it it's borderline cheesy I would guess but it it it is carrying it off.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

But I think the premise would be anyway it's okay I think it should be slightly cheesy that these people at a certain age have created a rock band you know what I mean that in itself slightly ooh makes my teeth slightly itch but it's that it's committed and the script is not making fun of it at all.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

It's highlighting the kind of Yeah yeah definitely do you think you'll start your own Riyadh Women band I think I mean as you can see I'm wearing a tartan shirt you know at the moment so tartan's very punk yeah um I'd go for that although I would rather it be a folk band. Yeah I can't um you know I I play the tin whistle and get somebody on a fiddle somebody with a little baran drum or something like that and uh and yeah we'd be away.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Two 40 minute sets of you on a little whistle that'd be quite interesting to listen to the tin whistle beating down the doors to get out probably now you and I are on a weekend away this weekend. Are you gonna bring your tin whistle with you?

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Would you like me to yes if only to annoy the other people that we're with don't tell them yes okay I will then since a special request I think you play it and I'll sing it well yeah you might do just as good a job of playing it because I can't really at all uh I'm not sure I would do just as good a job of singing but I've got my um my tunes um I've got loads of pogue songs so I know how much of a pogue's fan you are I love my pogue stuff bring it you love your pogue stuff so we'll be singing I mean I can actually do fairy tale in New York but it is it's too early for that.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

No it's not it's not too early for that bring it bring it bring bring the Tim Whistle and the music. Tim Whistle's coming sidebar before we go my first ever paid professional acting job at the tender age of nine do you remember when I was in the Citadel oh yes yeah one of my lines was Morning Doctor and I was relentlessly bullied and had the piss taken out of me because of that what just another thing um but that was filmed in Hebden Bridge.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Oh god there Car see it it all comes round isn't it can you remember how much you were paid for that back in 1980 or whatever it would have been.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

No I can't remember my parents would have done with the money.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

I think it was in the it was in the hundreds it really did they ever see it or they squirrelled it away on the bloody foreign holidays. I think uh they did invest it and then I think it was put to things like that yeah I think it was small you don't know I think you need to bring this up I think because if they had invested it wisely that could be a tidy sum now I think nice little you know I don't think it would have been much to be honest but yeah it could be if you wouldn't ask these questions because my mother God rest her soul she right she used to take my birthday money and pay the bloody milk man with it did you know people used to give you birthday money like a pound note didn't they sell it tape it into the card do you remember? Sell it taped into the card pound note she'd be like oh right thank you I'll keep that safe for you and she used to put it in the bureau we had the the bureau in the living room to remember that with a pull down um thing like a boss by the hatch on it that's it that's it and then of course the milkman would come knocking to collect his money for the milk and she'd be in there nicking my bloody booth money Marion Morgan terrible behaviour wherever you are now I hope you can hear us yeah I know exactly what you did woman you oh those pounds think what they're gonna be worth now exactly exactly probably£120 or something I think we did alright but no I can't remember I'll ask them I will ask them one day I must say I can't believe you've done that they'll have no idea bought a new car or something my mother was too busy having um catering with Ben Cross laughing at every word he said well it's been lovely to catch up with you my darling and you we've done another um whose coat is that jacket put on and worn and taken off yeah that was all sweaty and um we will get together and for the next episode next week but I'm gonna see you Friday I'm looking forward to it oh me too I've got my whistle catch your whistle and your music I um yes I will see you managed by