So Bad it's Good!!!

You know the feeling - it's like when the Birdie Song comes on the radio and you can't resist singing (and dancing) along.

Or when the only thing that'll hit that spot is a pot noodle and a whole packet of custard creams.

Or when you come across an old episode of El Dorado and you Just Can't Stop Watching!

It's more than a guilty pleasure, you're powerless in the face of temptation. You're unable to resist!

Yes, this week Morgan and Rhianydd confess their shameful compulsions, their 'So Bad It's Good' moments.

So what will it be? A box set of Young Doctors? A Robson and Jerome album? Tom Cruise's acting? (No, that's just silly).

Tune in this week to find out what we've got in our closets, as well as the new WWW and of course our absolutely non-embarrassing cultural moments.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Welcome to Whose Coat Is That Jacket? Old Friends, New Conversations with me, Morgan James, and her. Ryanith Bebrak.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Hello, hello, hello. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:30

I'm good, thank you. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:33

I'm very good, and obviously all the better for seeing your gorgeous mush.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Oh, that's very nice of you to say so. I'm a very nice person. You are? I've known that for quite some years. It's other people don't know it. No, they don't.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

No, you're the only person who does know it, actually.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I'm the only one I'm convin I'm trying to convince all.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

No, no, they don't listen, do they?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

No. It's stupid.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Very stupid people.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

No, it's nice to see you as well, and lots of people know how nice you are. Yeah, nice to see you. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

I'm good. That's all I can say. Everything's going fine swimmingly. Um I'm a little bit fatigued at the moment, that's about it. But that's a general kind of evening thing. After a very long, arduous day at the chalk face, you know. Yeah. Those bastards that don't listen to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Let's say it's that time of year, isn't it, where there's um uh at the time of recording, listener, it's spring. And it there is a sort of as much as we're coming out of that darkness and we're going into you know fresh life, there's a slight malaise, don't you find? It's like we're not quite up the top of the hill yet where we can see the view of the summer meadow. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Oh, I don't know. I don't feel like that. No, I feel like this is this is the best time when you've got the anticipation of the summer meadow. Because very often the summer meadow never actually turns up, it's a bloody, you know, swamp. Because it's pissing down, and uh, you know, that's summer that you look forward to at the start of the year never really materialises. So I I am I am enjoying the weather that we've got now. It's been very summer summery, summer like the last few days, certainly last weekend. So um, yeah, it's it's all good for me.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Good, good. And on that note of good, that's part of the title of this week's It was called Is That Jacket Question Conundrum Poser. The poser, I like that. And my question to you, Rihanna is it's so bad it's good.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I think it's several things so obviously uh being um Mrs. Um Mrs. Pinicety Pants, that's not a question, it's a statement. But so what are you asking? You're asking me that pick something like a like a guilty pleasure. I know it's bad, but I love it.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, that thing that you don't tell many people, although you're about to tell quite a few people. Uh that you just you just no well, quite a few. We got our we got our lovely loyal listener in Iraq and Sweden and Singapore.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Shout out to Iraq and Sweden and Singapore.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yes, please stay with us. We love you.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

We do love you.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Um, and we love you on a no whose coat is that jacket with us. I'm gonna let you kick off with that. It's so bad, it's good. Your guilty pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Okay, right. So I uh the thing that immediately comes to mind for me is a film. Right. Um, and it's a film I first saw. I'm not oh I I couldn't tell you exactly when. Feels like a very long time ago. It feels like it's something I've been aware of for some years. I would say at least 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Um, and I don't know how I ended up watching it. It would have been, I don't know, some kind of random late night, you know, after the pub type thing, probably where you're just flicking through channels and um all of a sudden this thing appears. So I or it could have been because of one of the actors that that made me want to watch it. So anyway, um, I don't know whether you've ever heard of or seen, and if you have, it's bloody great. Uh it's a film called The Lair of the White Worm.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Uh I think it's no, it rings no bells, and no, I've not seen it.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

And I mean it is dreadful.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, it's not fabulous. I it had if we were still living in a time of cinema, were I to walk past it, I probably wouldn't get a ticket for that.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

No, no, no. Well, it's based on um a novel by Bram Stoker. Right. Of Dracula. Um, and I've tried to read to read the original novel after having watched the film and thinking, oh, it's a great, you know, let's find the original. Uh and the novel is even worse than the film. I couldn't get through it. I couldn't get through it at all. So I haven't read the entire novel, and it's not a big one, it's a novella, really. But no, uh, that was one of the few, very few um works of fiction that have ever defeated me. But um, so the The Led of the White Womb is a Ken Russell film. So, those of you who are familiar with Ken Russell, it's probably like there's a little pigeon hole forming now, which is about to fill with pigeons. Um, so it was made in 1988.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

It's got a fabulous, really bizarre cast. But first of all, I'll tell you about the premise of the film, I'll tell you the plot of the film. So it's set in whatever you've been then, you know, uh contemporary times in in the late 80s, and it's um about this uh family, so two sisters who live in North Yorkshire, and they live in this, they've got this kind of B B sort of situation going on. And there's an archaeologist, a Scottish archaeologist, who comes to do a dig in the grounds of the B B and he's staying with them, and he digs up um this enormous snake's skull, it's huge. I mean, I I'm spreading my arms like this now. I think you can't actually see because my arms are off the off the screen. So it's I don't know, like it's about a meter long, this snake skull, but potentially more. Um and he digs this up, um, and it raises um sort of thoughts about the fact that there's this local legend that back in the Middle Ages a local squire um killed a dragon. The worm is another word for a dragon that was menacing the local community, and there's a sort of folk tale, local folk tale about it and everything. And oddly enough, the parents of these two women, young women who run the B, they disappeared in mysterious circumstances while off on a ramble several years ago, and their bodies have never been found. So they start thinking, oh, you know, is this is this um uh sort of tradition of this serpent, this worm, this dragon kind of real? There's also in the local area there's um this woman who lives on her own, and she is actually the high priestess of a cult around this uh worm, right? So this worm actually exists, it's and it is like a massive big white worm, although that's that's the sort of old name for a for a dragon or a serpent. So think of it like a long white snake. So she is this high priestess, and she wants to get sacrifices for the for the serpent. And we've also got as well, we've also got the local squire, okay, very partial squire, who is also involved in it. So it's basically all about whether or not this is um the last resting place of this serpent, and whether or not the priestess is going to be able to find get one of these two girls or both of them as a sacrifice, and there's all sorts of other different bizarre, bloody things that go on as well. Um, and it's just bloody fabulous because it's so naf, right? So let me tell you about the cast.

unknown 8:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

So the archaeologist is played by Peter Capaldi, okay? And who I love, as you know. So a very young Peter Capaldi, like I said, it's 1988, so he's got his fabulous curly brown hair. Um, he spends his entire time in a kilt, because of course, if you're an archaeologist, you must wear a kilt.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

And he's Scottish as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah, and he's Scottish, he's Scottish. So um that's that's him, he's the archaeologist. Um, the local squire is Hugh Grant, right? Okay, yeah. Um, the high priestess lady is Amanda Donohoe, and she is fucking fabulous. She, oh my god, if I could be her in this film, she basically embodies a snake, right? She sort of slithers out of trees, and she's oh my god, she's brilliant. She's brilliant. But the most bizarre thing, the most bizarre thing is the two um sisters who run the B, right? One of them is played by, do you remember Catherine Oxenberg? Dynasty, yeah. Dynasty. She's European royalty, right? As Plumian as posh as you can imagine, but here she's trying to put on a Yorkshire accent. I'm spectacularly failing.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Was she Dynasty or Colby's? I think it was Dynasty. It was Dynasty, wasn't it? And I think she was one of those, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

So she was she's like Princess Diana-esque, wasn't she? With a bit longer hair. Yeah, very blonde and blue-eyed and kind of very, very plummy. Um, but yeah, she's trying to talk like that, and she's putting putting a stooling effort in, bless her. But uh not absolutely um nailing it. Um so it's got this, and then Stratford Johns appears in it as well as a policeman. So good cast. I've got a fabulous cast. You know, Ken Russell is a kind of very famous director.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, that would have been the draw property for these young editors.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Bizarre film. So you've got there's some really bizarre bits in it. So um there's one bit where one of the uh one of the sisters, so potentially Katherine Oxenberg's character, has this sort of hallucination type thing that she is a nun, right? Be back in the day of when the when the serpent first appeared. I I can't work out what the hell is going on. So it's the it's like this fever dream type hallucination where you've got a nun set in Roman times. You've got all these Roman soldiers running around, right? But then a nun, like a modern nun. And a big crucifix. Now don't tell me how the Roman soldiers and the crucifix go together. Yeah, but um, and the nun is trying the nuns are trying to protect the crucifix, and the Roman soldiers are just basically attacking them and sexually assaulting them.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Was this in a dream?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

This is a fever dream, a proper old fever dream. Okay, yeah. Um, there's another bit where Amanda Donho kidnaps like a young boy scout or something, and put takes him into her uh jacuzzi, and she puts him in the jacuzzi, and like um she's she's half snake as well, so she's got these long fangs, and she kind of envenomates him and you know he dies. It's bizarre. And um, and there's another even more bizarre bit where I think this is who grant having a dream, right? And all of a sudden, who grant is in um like a flyer, a pilot's uniform. He's not a pilot, as far as we're aware, he's the local Lord of the Manor. But he's he turns up in his pilot's uniform and he's on a plane, right? And so he's obviously got the hots for both Amanda Donahue's character and Catherine Oxenberg's character. And they they appear in the um aisle of the plane, dressed as little kind of sexy air hostesses, and then they start doing a bit of um wrestling on the floor. And he's he's holding a pen in his hand for some reason, a red byro. And then the red by ro kind of tilts upwards like that. The red Bayro is getting an erection as he's watching Amanda Donahue and Catherine Oxenburg like in stilettos and suspenders wrestle on the floor. It's just it's bizarre.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

It sounds, yeah, it sounds immensely Ken Russell.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

It's fabulously Ken Russell, and with uh such cringe-worthy bits in it, you think, what the fuck is happening now? Where's this come from? You know, what the hell is going on now? But it's it all somehow hangs together. The cast, Amanda Donohoe, right? She is taking it seriously. She is giving it her all, she is fabulous, as I can't remember her name, is Lady something or other. Um, but she's bloody fabulous, and she's playing it, it's so camp, but she's playing it dead straight. And they're all playing it dead straight, apart from perhaps Peter Capoldi, I wonder whether he's actually just like, what the fuck am I doing? But it's um yes. So I I just rambled around that really, and I've not given you a true flavour of of how spectacularly fabulous yet dreadful it is. But if you do have the opportunity to watch it, and actually I had a look on YouTube just now, and there's a trailer on YouTube that makes it look really good. I watched this trailer, it's about a two-minute long trailer, and it if you just saw the trailer and you'd think, oh, this is a really good film, I want to watch this, you'd be sadly disappointed by the real thing. But it's such high camp that you know you can't help love it.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

I've never heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

And do you know what? I think Mike would love it because he loves high camp stuff, doesn't he? Yeah. I think he'd love it. And I think he'd just love to see Catherine Oxenberg try to tackle a Yorkshire accent and Amanda Donahoe looking absolutely fabulous. She's so slinky, she's a proper snake in it, you know, it's bloody great.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

I've never heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Oh yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

It does sound horrific and also intriguing at the same time. Um, and you know, it makes me think as an actor, you often take a job, and no matter who's in it or directing it or written it, you you ne even though you hope, you never know how it's gonna turn out. You never know. It's only when you're in it do you realise, oh Christ, this is a turkey. Or actually, this is gonna be quite good. And I can imagine they all went fantastic because they were all starting out pretty much at that point, weren't they? 88.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah, I guess so, 88. Presumably it was filmed in like 87. They would all have all come strap for John's. Um, bless him. You know, Catherine Oxenberg probably would have been the one with the highest profile, the highest profile, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Amanda Donna, who was yet to go into LA law.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Certainly Hugh Grant and Peter Capaldi weren't very early in their careers, I think.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

So you imagine they've come out of drama school, they've got a Ken Russell movie. I mean, yeah, Ken L, you're on your way.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

And then this.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

It's just bizarre. It's honestly it is like one of those late night things where if you happen to turn on the TV and it's on, you'd be like transfixed, wanting to turn it off, but not being able to turn it off because you're like, I what the fuck's going on now? You know, and what what's he doing in this film? And what's she what is that accent? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Um again, the title of the film is The Lair of the White Worm. And what genre would you put it into?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Um, it's supposed to be horror. I would say horror comedy. Treat it like a horror comedy.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

It's it's glorious. Okay. Absolutely glorious.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

So you love it. Do you but you I do love it, yeah. You also think it's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Well, I mean, like, yeah, objectively, it's terrible. Because the acting is pretty shit, apart from Amanda. But Amanda Donahue, like I say, she commits, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

She's committed, isn't she?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

She's and and I think that's what saves it. So it's high camp, but with that sort of quite serious core to it, committed core. And um, you know, and it looks good. I mean, it's well, some of the special effects, no, to be fair, are a bit naff. But there's that there's some really good bits in it as well, some really kind of powerful images. There's uh a bit where Amanda Donahue, because like I said, she's part snake, so she's got these long, long fangs that just appear, you know, when when necessary, and she goes to the uh to the B um to have a look to see who's there. There's nobody there, so she has a bit of a prowl about, and as I say, she's really slinky and everything. And this she sees a crucifix on the wall, and she just projectile vomits, venom at it like that, straight out of her mouth onto the crucifix, you know. That's just that you know that's classic, that is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 17:55

A bit of classic horror. It's lovely. And this was a novella by Bram Stoker.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Bram Stoker, and as I said, the original so the original obviously isn't set in 1988. The original is is set in the late Victorian period. Um, it's it's even worse. So it's bad.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

I remember I don't know why I was googling him. He might have been an episode of something we were doing, or for some reason. But I didn't realise he didn't, other than Dracula, he didn't have a huge amount of success as a writer.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Well, he wasn't a writer, he was a theatre manager.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

And an agent. Uh yeah, I think it was just like a a side a side hustle. Side hustle.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah. Um and I think he he, you know, he the demon drink got the better of him. Oh, did it? Like if I want to remember what I'm reading. I bizarrely found him quite hot.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

No, we we've had this conversation before when I disagree with you. I'd I'd like to say that I found Bram Stoker hot, but the pictures I've seen of him, like a big fat bastard with a big beard.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

No, he's like a big ginger Irish rugby player, and I'm not I'm not adverse to that.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Well, there we are, then that's fine. And I'm not adverse to the ginger. Is he ginger? You haven't seen any colour photographs of him.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

He looks fair, he may not be ginger.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

No, I think of him as being dark.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Do you know it looks anyway? Anyway. Anyway, we digress with my slight fantasy about Bram. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah, but I mean, well done. When you think about it that way, well done to Ken Russell for making something watchable out of a dia book.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

So and again, we're not gonna go down that road, but it it it it sparks questions in me like, why would you even option such a book? If it's such a shit book, why would you go? I'm gonna option this and make it. Well, there's so many good pieces out there.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

No, I know.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Well, maybe that's it, maybe it was cheap.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Maybe that's it. Yeah, who who knows? But it's it's uh it it's a cult classic now. I mean, it's not a cult classic in the way that other things are, like the wicker man and that kind of thing. But it's um yeah, that it has a a loyal following, a little core of people, you know, um, who uh appreciate its quirks and its oddnesses. Anyway, it's all part of the joy of the Lair of the White Worm.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Lair of the White Worm, okay, on my list of films. Uh that'll be a slow day, I think, when that goes on.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Anyway, darling, what's yours so bad it's good?

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Well, I I can't really make fun of yours. Yours, as bad as it sounds, and as camp as it sounds, and I love a bit of camp. Mine is camp, yours still sounds much more highbrow than mine.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Oh Christ almighty, how low can we go? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Oh, I'm about to take us really low.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Oh dear, dear God almighty.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

So when um we when we kind of put this subject out there so bad it's good, I thought about so many different things. And then I came to that phrase you said, and I I thought, guilty pleasure, guilty pleasure. What is the one thing I don't tell many people I watch? And I I don't know why because I don't judge people, watch what you want. But it's a fucking guilty pleasure. My so bad it's good is the real housewives of Beverly Hills. Oh Jesus Christ. The look of disdain on her face, listener, is it's unbelievable. I've sat here and listened to this garbage about this movie, and now she's not garbage, but he great. She is literally like this.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

At least mine's got a script and actors and sets and costumes.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

I think mine's scripted, but they're if they're actors, they actually I don't know, they could be the best actors in the world. So let me give you the premise anyway. So it's a reality TV show. And I Don't watch many reality TV shows. I'm a bit like you. I probably watch You're not like me, you watch bloody loads of them. I don't know. Watch Traitors. Would that be a reality TV show? Yeah, well, I don't know actually. I can't. And I watch this. Okay. Go on then. I don't watch anything else. Alright. But I thought rather than me try and sum it up, what I'd do is I'd read how it's sold. So online, you know, when you go online. So there were various definitions of it. So if you go to Wikipedia, for example, or IMDB, affluent women attempt to balance their ever-evolving friendships with the demands of family life and growing business ventures while living in Beverly Hills. That's the that's IMDB. The one I love is Netflix, which is basically the hit reality franchise takes up residence in Beverly Hills, where well-heeled frenemies fight, drink, and prim their way to maximum drama. Oh, Jesus, it sounds appalling. And if I watch my movie, you're gonna have to watch an episode of this. Oh, no, I'm not, that wasn't part of the bloody deal. If I watch your movie. So basically, I'll tell you how I came about it. So I think it's on season 15 now. What? Oh yeah. The Real Households franchise is a a monster. It's a juggernaut. I think you have them all over America. I think you have them on in Canada or have had. I think you have them in Europe. Anyway, I only watched this one. I I'd be lying if I said I didn't dip into the New York one. But let's leave it there. So um basically I, as you know, um, we talked about it uh in a recent episode. Mike and I go to uh have been going to LA a lot over the years. And so it was not long after going, probably for the first time, it's quite a few years ago, many years ago, and I was home in the day, and a in a job in actor, all that, nothing on. And this was on in the morning, and I thought, oh, Beverly Hills! Oh, I want to see Beverly Hills. It's a documentary. So I thought I'm gonna watch this purely to see places I'd been to as a little kind of oh thinking nothing of it.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Mike came home that night and I said I've watched about six episodes of this thing called The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

And how long is each episode?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Oh, it's about 50 minutes. Basically, uh usually it covers the lives of six or seven Real Housewives. So they're there for the season. Only one of them has been in it from the very beginning. That's Kyle. Okay, so Kyle has been in it from the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

And I'm trying to r I can't for the life of me now remember Kyle's full name, which is awful. I might have to it'll come in.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

No, Kyle was an actress. She was the child in Halloween with Jamie Lee Curtis. She was the little girl Jamie Lee Curtis was babysitting.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Oh right. I've never seen Halloween actually.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Well, interesting. That could have been on my list because I watched that recently one Halloween because Michael said we've got to watch a horror.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

And um, I mean, you know me. You've s I'm not great with horrors and I cover my list. I mean, at one point I was like, can this guy just turn up and kill these fucking irritating people, please? It was so unfrightening. Um Kyle Richards. Kyle Richards. So Kyle Richards was a little girl in that, and she's in the remake with Jamie Lee Curtis. They've remained good friends. So I think Jamie Lee Curtis was a teenager and looked after, and they've remained good friends. Right. And so when you say there are no actors in it, I uh you never quite know how much is performative or not. Are they given a kind of okay, here's your skeleton script? You guys are gonna have dinner. At one point, you say this, this is gonna inflame it, go. And it's everything I hate about life, but in a funny kind of way, I can't stop watching it. It's a bit like watching a car crash. So Kyle's been in it since the beginning, and uh, I really like her, and she's she's still kind of the same as she was, she's phenomenally affluent. They're all fucking crazy rich and obnoxious and foul, and it's it's all rather gaudy, and they all think she's the only one actually that's not that. She doesn't kind of um flaunt her wealth, but most of them are just foul. And so part of you looks at it in a kind of it's quite Roman, you know, the Colosseum with the lions and throwing them, throwing it, you know, the the jeering on the crowds. It's the one thing where I do kind of go, I almost kind of wish for their downfall because they're so hideous. And yet at the same time, y you're championing one or two of them because of the bad behaviour of others. So it kind of brings out all those things. Um and it just follows these these seven women each season. There's usually about twenty-two episodes in a season. It's huge, it's huge. And they'll go on a vacation, they'll go away for the weekend, then they'll go to European City. There'll usually be two or three stories simmering throughout like some kind of argument simmering between two of them. We'll come to some enormous drama in about episode 14, or something, or somebody's going through divorce. Oddly, at the moment, of course very few of them last the course because they become unpopular with viewers, or they get sick of the intrusion in their life, or their ratings drop, or whatever it is, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

It's how what do you mean they how do they know whether they're unpopular with viewers? Is there like voting in it or something?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

I think what happens is they just kind of they probably do polls, I would think, and all the producers look at it and go, right, they're not getting a lot of online action or traction, they're getting a lot of traction. Kyle's somebody people still champion, they like her, she's brought her four daughters up, she's still got her values, even though she's, you know, phenomenally wealthy from doing this. She works as an actress, so she's kind of quite rounded for this crazy kind of millionaire rich woman. You see the credits and you see them, and they've all got these mottos like, you know, I didn't marry money, I manifested money. It's all that bullshit. It's all so it's irritating, and I don't like any of them, and there's a shard and freud to it, but I just can't stop watching it.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Why though? Why do you because as you say, they're all uh horrible people, um, and you probably there must be part where you're thinking, oh fucking hell, you know, what why are these people on the telly? And is I what would piss me off would be this isn't real, this isn't real, it's supposed to be real, it's not real. I can telescripted somebody's manipulating them. Oh, am I being manipulated? But so why do you keep going back for more?

SPEAKER_00 29:00

I think it's cleverly done. It's a bit like it's a bit like a real-life soap opera, and you know the way the soap opera hooks you in, and there's always a at the end of the episode, there's a cliffhanger, and you kind of go, Oh, I'm gonna have to see what happens. Like one of them, Erica Girardi, and she has an altar eager called Erica Jane. And Erica Jane is like a real, real, real poor man's Madonna, you know, she's in a Basque and on stage, and she can sing and dance to a degree, and she tours, and she plays G A Y, or she'll play, you know, um some gay festival in fucking palm desert. Uh she went into Chicago actually on Broadway. She's not untalented, but she was married to um Tom Girardi, who was the lawyer Albert Finney played in Aaron Brockovich. Obviously, with that case with Aaron Brockovich, he was a uh a Californian lawyer. He became a multi, multi, multi-millionaire. She married him, was his wife. But it transpires through the years that it was quite a it was quite a coercive marriage. And then he's now in prison for embezzlement and tax evasion. He's very old, he's much older than her. And of course, she's got like a $25 million lawsuit hanging over her head. And throughout one season, she's clearly going through this when this crime broke, and it was all the news, and she's this r she was quite revolting about it all, quite broken and hideous. And I wondered, were they ever gonna renew her contract? But somehow she's come back and she's funny, kind of way, she's a much rounder whole person, even though she's on a reality show. So there are people you kind of you get to like. I'm not gonna sell it. I don't want you, it's a guilty pleasure. I think it's hideous, it's a bit like crack. I don't want you to watch it, I'm not gonna justify me watching it. But there is there are moments where you do go, Oh, quite like her. She's a strong woman, she's a survivor. I quite like her. I'm rooting for her, and then there's others where you go, Fucking hell, who's this witch? You're pretentious, they're so pretentious. And it's interesting what money does to people, isn't it? Because they get the longer they stay with the show, the wealthier they get. So they've got to be wealthy in the beginning. In many ways it's interesting because they think they're championing one another as women. But they're actually quite I think they're quite destructive as women to women. It's quite interesting. Not that I'm gonna make it anthropological, it doesn't go that deep. But they're they're quite um these women fighting in public.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

When you say fight, you mean in the American way of fight, like argu.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Oh, round a table, yeah, they don't fight. Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah, not not actually fisticuffs or anything.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Perhaps a glass of wine over one's face, do you know what I mean? Oh really? What Lisa Rinner, who's married to the actor Harry Hamlin, she once threw a glass of wine over Kyle's sister because Kyle's sister insinuated Harry Hamlin was having an affair. Don't you ever go that and like and look you at your mouth's open already, and you can't go. And of course, that's the end of the episode, and you go, Oh my god, oh my god, I've got to go back. And the whole episode would be like 25 minutes of this screaming at a table. And then you then you then you cut to them, you cut to them VT on their own in their house. The thing about Kim, she never really listened. So you g it's intersliced with VTs. Oh, it sounds awful. It is my big it's my big guilty pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Absolutely awful.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

In this series, is one of them is being accused of never being there for them all. She's not authentic. Because you never can you never just share with us, you never get angry. You never get and she kind of goes, Well, I don't I don't what do you mean I share? I share as much as I can share, but you know, you know, womanhood is about sharing and if you're angry, you say you're angry and but they misinterpret authenticity and vulnerability as just being aggressive and nasty and it's um I'm making it sound a lot deeper than it is. It's just seven fucking women tearing each other apart and then thinking they're unifying each other. You see LA. That's how it started. I just saw LA and went, oh, yeah, I remember that place, and then I just got absolutely drawn in. What's interesting of the seven housewives, real housewives of Beverly Hills in season 15, which I'm yet to watch, none of them are married. They're all going through divorces. One of them has a boyfriend and she's trying to have a baby at 50. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, it's all that.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

That's something in itself, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 33:27

And they'll turn up with some handbag, and all of a sudden it'll come the price tag will come up on the screen. It's beyond vulgar. Oh god. But I can't I can't resist it. Oh, that's just green. I think it's everything I hate about wealth, but I can't resist it. It's a it's a bit like the Romans throwing the people to the lion. You kind of watch them, and that's that awful side of us that kind of quite enjoys their downfall.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

I think I'd feel dirty.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

I think I feel definitely dirty, yeah. It's dirty, dirty, dirty. Yeah. It's one night stand television.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

And um uh not just in one night stands, but um, it's also uh I think they feel they're really in control and on top of it, and you're kind of watching, going, Oh, you're being so played, you're being so manipulated here. I've probably done it a disservice, but I just enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Yeah, everything you've said is so negative. I love it. I can't stop watching. Is it?

SPEAKER_00 34:31

It's like a real-life soap opera. But that's why people watch soap, if you think about it. I don't watch East Enders, but everybody always says to me all they do is shout and fight and kill each other.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

I think soaps are different now though, aren't they? Yeah. You know, when you think about when we used to watch, I don't know, Coronation Street and East Enders back in the 1980s or whatever, they they weren't massive dramas every week. It was all quite bloody boring, actually, a lot of it, wasn't it? It was kind of everyday stuff, and somebody might have an affair with somebody else, and you know, they might be but it was it was just the you know everyday kind of goings-on. I think it's become a lot more, and I don't know whether that was when they started doing soaps instead of just once or twice a week, like five times a week, and then you have to keep the momentum going, and then you have to be make it more dramatic. I mean, I haven't watched either of those programmes for bloody decades. Donkeys! I used to love them. I used to absolutely love Ecenders in Coronation Street, but I haven't watched Eastenders, but I haven't watched either of them for decades.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

I stopped watching Eastenders when Anita Dobson left.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Oh god, that was years ago. So you haven't watched it for as long as for much longer than I haven't watched it.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

I may have watched them when there was the gay story with Andrew Linford, um, where he and is it but Martin McCutcheon was the sister of the other guy. Andrew directed me in a in a Suntime piece a couple of years later, but I think I might have watched it then. But the other thing I'm f uh which I find fascinating about this kind of reality show is society that feels they're okay to share everything. So I'll give you an example. It's a it's a kind of it's a bit of a juxtaposition. Because there's this character called Dorite who's going through a separation and has filed for divorce from her husband. And they were always hideous together, they were always like baby darling, darling, lovely, darling, lovely. So I never believed the relationship anyway, but now they're divorcing one surprise. And she's got two small children, and she's having a real problem with one of the wives, because one of the wives has said, Well, why are you not telling the children? And she's like, Well, I'm protecting the children, it's up to me when I tell my children, but aren't you worried about so she's like, Well, uh it's none of your business. So that's how the routes are and you know, and then everything they do, and then cut to Derete to camera, going, you know, I can't believe she's telling me that I should handle this with my children. My children don't need to know. My children will know when they're older, and I'm thinking, You're on TV, bitch. They're gonna know. They're gonna go to school and their mums are gonna watch it because one of the kids is in one of the kids in their satin author's classes.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Somebody's gonna come into the school playground and say, Your parents are getting the divorce.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

I mean, you're on TV, you stupid cat.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

What are you talking about? Yeah, well, I mean, that just makes you sh makes it uh you know obvious how it is all bloody performative, isn't it? You know, when you haven't got children.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

It's all prompted, and they all live in these fabulous houses, and they're ghastly, but they're huge, bloody, hideous Hollywood mansions, but they think they're fabulous, and um, they're all driving such expensive cars. And you kind of know actually, I bet that's just been given to them for the shoot because it pulls up on the camera's on the badge, you know, it's a Porsche or a Bentley or whatever, and you know they probably have to give you back at the end of it. Yeah, but um it's fantastical, and it's it's gossip, and it's all those terrible things that we love as people. Um I'd kind of invested in the characters. I like Kyle Richards though. I think Kyle's a good egg. Kyle's a survivor. I love Kyle. Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Go go Kyle.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Go Kyle. So that's my guilty, guilty pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah, I can imagine you are very guilty about that. And and when I compare it to mine now, I mean I'm not guilty about the Lego the White Woman. I bloody love it.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Oh, you're being you're being a guilty pleasure snob now.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Mine was just like I know that objectively speaking, it's quite a bad film, but I still can't help liking it because of all these reasons. Whereas yours just sounds, yeah, really dreadful, sorry. So, in a way, I win. Yes, you win. I think you've won that one. You've definitely got the worst one.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Not that it was a competition, but you know what? What the hell?

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Yeah, come on, take it. Umglish word of the week. Wenglish word of the week, I believe it's your turn.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

It's me, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yes, I believe it is.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

We've gone through quite a lot of Wenglish words.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Yeah, we must be running out now.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

I'm getting to the point now. I'm scraping the barrel, the bottom of that barrel, and it's making a loud noise. But also I'm thinking anything anybody Welsh that speaks something, it is how Wenglish is that can I use that? Is that phrase? Um, and so I have come up with a phrase. So I do think it qualifies as Wenglish because when I looked up Wenglish today, it was there because of its structure, its sentence structure.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

And also how it's used. But it's all English words.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

But it's how we use them, particularly in the van.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

And in order to sell this, I'm gonna give you a scenario. Right. I heard this recently in a shop when I was in Wales, and there was a woman waiting in the queue to return something. She was obviously quite not nervous, but you know, like, I don't know what it is, whether it's to do with confidence or whatever. I would just go up and say hello. I'd just discuss it casually with somebody and have no problems in going, I'm returning this. Whereas I I sure some people get into a mindset where they go, Well, I don't know if they'll take it back, but I'm not having it, I'm gonna take it back anyway. Yeah, but I don't want it. You know, you know what I mean? They probably this whole narrative. So she was clearly ready for it. So she wasn't aggressive, but she was certainly on. And she stepped up to the uh cashier's desk. There was no hello, there was no uh thank you very much, or uh hello over you today. There was nothing.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Literally, she stepped up and went, What it is I knew we were gonna say that.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

What it is and I just what it and I oh I for that I couldn't take my eyes off. I just love what it is, see? I bought this, right? And it don't fit me, and I know it's like over 28 days, but I don't I want to bring it back.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

I don't know why why do people feel the need to say to preface any conversation with what it is? Yeah, it's it's really strange. And I think it is exactly when you were gonna say that when you had the scenario of somebody bringing something back. I thought I bet it's gonna be that.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

And I think it is Wenglish. I think it's very much, you know, we've always said with our podcast Wenglish is very much tied up, particularly in our part of the world, in the the valleys in South Wales. I think it's very much a Wenglish sentence.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Yeah, I don't know whether it would be said anywhere else. I can't think of hearing it anywhere else, I can't imagine it in a different accent other than a South Welsh accent. What it is.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

What it is C. What it is C, and it's usually a C as well as it's usually a C, and she was just she wasn't rude, but she was ready for war just in case. Yeah. What it is C. There was no hello, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yeah. Um, somebody I used to work with, um Helen Green. If Helen Green is listening, oh I loved Helen Green, she's fat. Uh, I haven't seen her for a long, long time. Anyway, her husband, I think, was a photographer and had his own business. And she used to say that people used to ring him up, what it is on the phone. What it is. Well, but literally you pick up the phone. Yeah, pick up the pick up the phone and instead of oh hello, you know, I this is what I'm after. What it is, see, and they do it on your phone. Yeah, we used to laugh about that.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

I love it. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

And also the sentence structure, what it is.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Yeah. What it is, and and the C bit as well. Oh, C.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

What it is, C is lovely. I love it, I love it. It is good. So I think it does fit neatly into English, even though it's but they're English words. The structure, the way it's used is so um indicative of this part of the world. Um and again, it's probably one of those. We've talked about that. There are some English words that just are uh they transcend class or status or demographic. This sentence, I think, is very you can kind of almost tell. Um not on educational level, but it's a certain background of individual or people that would use it. What it is, see?

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Yeah. Maybe somebody who's not necessarily confident in expressing themselves. Exactly that. Um, very clearly. Exactly that.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Lacking in confidence. I'm perhaps struggling for the words as well, but you like that one.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah. I can see it coming in my laugh as soon as you started giving me the scenario.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

Oh, I love Tier. So there's my Wangish word of the week. So your cultural event of the week, dear lady, seeing as we've um you kind of skirted culture, I then ripped culture away with the realise hers of Everly Hills. Culture less. Let's bring it back.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Yeah, okay. Well, my I I think mine is quite mine's quite niche. I would say mine's a niche cultural thing, and I might have Do a lot of explanation. So here goes. Um, so I went um on a walk on the weekend um around a part of Brigenda which I've never been to before, which is ridiculous. You know, I've lived here for like getting on for well over 30 years now, and they're still part of the borough that I've not visited. So I went to a place called Shanghaina. Okay. So Shanghaina is like um a little village, um, it's got a sort of modern bit which is on the on a main road, and then you go up a little windy, windy, windy, windy, and then you've got the original old core of the village, and essentially it's a couple of farms, a pub, and a church. Um, and then you can walk up onto the hills from there. So we were going for a walk, you see, but um with the idea of stopping off in the pub for a drink or something on the way back. And I saw this church, I thought, oh, hello, a nice hilltop medieval church. Let's go and have a look. So I was wandering around, and it's one of these lovely higgledy-piggledy ones where there's just all the gravestones are really chock a block together and they're all at different angles, and it hasn't been, you know, kind of all manicured and tarted up and everything. So I was having a wander around the church itself was locked, so I was having a wander around the graveyard, and I saw something which I've never seen in Wales before, and I've only ever seen in Scotland, and I haven't seen many of them in Scotland. And that thing, Morgan, was a mort safe. And I was so excited to see a mort safe. Do you know what a mort safe is?

SPEAKER_00 45:28

I do not.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

So a mort safe is an iron cage, essentially. Um, and they come in different forms, but essentially, what it is is an iron cage which is put over a grave, right? A new burial. Right. Um, and so it sort of covers the grave and goes down into the ground, and it prevents grave robbers from reaching the body. So they are very specific in time to a kind of the late 18th, early 19th century, when grave robbing was a thing. Um, because they needed to take the corpses, they would get money for the corpses and sell them to an anatomy students because you couldn't have um you couldn't do anatomy or anything other than a corpse, anything other than a corpse. Yeah, obviously we added. But the the supply of corpses was from executed criminals. That was the only legitimate supply of corpses to um schools of medicine, universities teaching medicine and anatomy to students, um, was these executed corpse uh corpses. Um and of course, you know, they just didn't have enough of them, even though there were lots of people being executed in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Um so it they had these what you know, body snatchers, they're often known as, in the time they were known as resurrection men, who then would kind of basically you know keep an eye out for burials, and then they would wait until everybody'd gone home after the after the funeral, hang around at night and hoike the corpse out, and then take it to the to the anatomy schools. So two of the most um prestigious anatomy schools were in Glasgow and Edinburgh, and therefore mort safes are quite a common thing in those cities and in the sort of hinterlands of those cities, but you know, there was no anatomy school, there was no medical school in Wales. So you don't expect body snatching to be a thing in Wales because the whole point of taking them out of the grave once they've been buried was that they were fresh. And the whole point of the mortsafe was to make it impossible to get to the body while it was still fresh enough to use. Um, I know, and after a couple of weeks, the body would have gone beyond the point at which it was safe to use for the anatomists, so that they'd be interested in it. So, why the hell this mortsafe appeared over this grave in an out-of-the-way hilltop churchyard in South Wales? I have absolutely no idea. It's it's really intrigued me. Really, really intrigued me. And Tom, Tom was suggesting maybe it's just decorative. Well, okay, it might be just decorative, but I've never seen anything like that either, you know. And as you know, I do like mooching around a graveyard, and I've mooched around many, um, and I've never seen anything like it. So it was just like a hooped. Um, if you can imagine, you know, like the hoops around a barrel.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Okay, the iron hoop hoops around a barrel. It was a bit like that. So it's just like there's a, you know, the the sort of hoops are going over the grave, and there was a kind of central kind of spine to it. So like almost like a spine with ribs coming out, you know. So it's just basically this sort of curved, hooped cage put over the the length of the grave so that you can't you can't get into it essentially. But yeah, I've never seen anything like it at all in Wales before. So whether it is a genuine mortar safe, if I saw it in Scotland, I'd think straight away or mortsafe. Um, but uh I can't see the need for them in Wales because we didn't have anywhere you could safely and quickly, you know, sell a body to. So it's very strange.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

And the grave itself, they weren't the the names there weren't any names of particular notoriety or um, you know, any sort of particular established family whereby the bodies would have been. I don't know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

No, this is the thing. So the gravestone itself was very, very worn. Yeah, you couldn't read it. And I could only make out the fact that it was the grave of a woman because it had the word uh guray on there. So it was the inscription was in Welsh.

SPEAKER_02 49:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

Um and the word gri was on there, which means wife. So it was the the grave of the wife of somebody or other. So that's or so now my head is going now, my my little mind is going, ooh, ooh, what were they worried about? Ooh, ooh, ooh. Maybe they thought she was a vampire, maybe they thought maybe they were trying to keep her in rather than people out.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

I mean, forgive me if it's uh uh a crass question, but were people often buried with artifacts or with uh sort of jewelry or riches or anything, you know, uh from their estate, and they and this person was uh from a well-known wealthy estate, and therefore they wanted to make it.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

It was a very um modest gravestone, so they were much bigger, more ostentatious gravestones in the graveyard. It's one of the least ostentatious, actually, it was just a very plain headstone. So that you know, they couldn't have been a very wealthy family, and in general, um, Christian burials don't have grave goods anyway. I mean, now we might put a few keepsakes in a coffin or whatever, like photographs or something like that. But you, you know, or maybe there might be a wedding ring there. But no, you wouldn't expect you you didn't tend to have people robbing graves to to steal from the dead. You want them the the dead had to be stolen, stolen themselves. And in fact, grave robbers themselves, the the resurrection men, they would be very careful to just take the body, so they'd even leave the shroud because or or any kind of nightwear or you know uh clothing that the that the um the dead person was wearing, because you there was no law preventing the theft of a body, but there is a law preventing the theft of clothing. They could be convicted for stealing the shroud because that had a value. Um but the body doesn't have a financial value. So there's not not actually any that they weren't necessarily obviously they were breaking the law, but um they couldn't be done for for theft because you know theft was a hanging offence in itself, if it was over the if the goods were over a certain value.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Could it not be something as and again, we're not gonna get the part, we're not gonna know this, but something as mundane as during the time of the death of this woman, grave robbing was was quite a kind of you know um an established activity, and therefore this particular family wanted to make sure they prevented it and just put a cage there.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah, I mean, who knows? Who uh who knows? And we can't even tell. I can't even tell the age of the grave because it's all worn off, you know. So if it if it is a a mort safe, I would expect it to be earlier than the 1830s, because that's when they passed a law to legalize um, you know, that you could anatomize paupers and that kind of thing, then people who died in poor houses and um weren't weren't claimed by their families. Um so it it sort of took the market away from the grave robbers, and so these mortsafes and things died out. But it was a proper you know, the whole thing was a real kind of fear in areas where there were schools of anatomy. So, like I said, Glasgow, Edinburgh, London, um, there were lots of attempts there to kind of you know outwit the grave robbers and prevent and even had things like cemetery guns with tripwires. So that if you were wandering around in a cemetery in the middle of the night, you you could get shot by this automatic, you know, like cemetery gun kind of thing. Yeah, it's fascinating history, the history of grave robbing. But yeah, to so to see something like that in this really out-of-the-way place, just I was really intrigued. And you know, if only I could identify the name of the person on the grave, then you'd have something to go on, wouldn't you? You know, but it's all worn away, unfortunately. There we are. Anyway, so that was a rather macabre cultural moment of the week, but that's me or a bucket.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

Yeah, and I think you should uh I think you should dig deeper to find out why.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Quite literally.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

Quite literally, excuse the metaphor, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

So what's your cultural moment, my darling?

SPEAKER_00 54:04

So mine uh also takes place in Wales. Uh we Mike and I took my parents away this weekend just gone. Um, and they haven't been away for quite a while, and we couldn't have chosen a better weekend where that was just so Mediterranean. And we took them to Pembrokeshire. A very dear friend of ours, Karen, has a house um just up from Newgale Beach. I know you will know this really well, in um just uh north west of Hereford West, on the St David's Road, uh in a little place called Roach. So we went and stayed there for four nights. Beautiful house, really lovely, lovely, lovely time. And one of the things I'd wanted to do for a while and kept promising my mum, because my mum paints, is we'll go to Knapp Fisher's gallery. So the artist John Knapp Fisher, are you familiar with John Napisher? I'm not actually, no. So Knapp Fisher is uh he passed in 2015, I believe. Uh born in he's a Londoner, born in 1931. Uh but uh very inspired by the works of Cuffin Williams. Yeah. I think a sort of contemporary to Graham Sutherland. So very inspired. Uh came down uh to uh Wales in the 60s, fell in love with Pembrokeshire. And uh in 1967 he opened his uh studio and his gallery, which is a tiny one-level uh workers' cottage on the St David's Peninsula in a place called Croix Gorge. It's a Trivigan Cottage. Uh it's a Havford West address, but it's quite a way up from Havford West Um on the way to St David's, and it's this tiny little I think they've gone back quite far now, him and his partner, and it's obviously got you know doors leading to wherever, and there's but from the front of it is this tiny little yellow cottage, and this was his studio and his home. And a lot of his original works are still there. Yeah, all I can say is it's very if you know Cuffin Williams, it's very uh we've got a couple of his prints here. So you'll have these wonderful sort of dramatic paintings of the Pembrokeshire coastline, and perhaps a lone white cottage on a hill. Or you'll have um obviously inspired by Temby or um Solva. You'll have small roads leading down to the coast, and you'll have the harbour in the distance and the white cottages, and perhaps one singular figure. Um I love them. I found them really, really um evocative and very much of that area. Lots of paintings of the you know, as you go north in Pembrokeshire and you go you've got the Priscilla's uh in the east, and then you've got as you're going up to Woody Peter, Cardigan up there, you've got the sort of mountain range there, and lots of paintings of those vistas and sort of seas and stormy weather and very dark skies. Um and it was lovely to go there, and his partner Jill uh still runs it, and it's quite interesting because it's it's incredibly well. The cottage is a you know, it's an old workman's cottage. It's very near uh the sloop. And the sloop is a pub just down in the harbour, just down the road from the gallery, and there's uh remnants of an old brick factory. So you've got all the workers' cottages there, which would have worked there in the 19th century, creating bricks. So it's it obviously it was like a tiny little industrial area on the coast. But Jill has the sort of poshest of London accents, but it's uh uh just very of the earth now. You know, I I bought uh I bought a book there uh uh for my friend and um just sort of held up the the twin tune. She's like marvellous, this'll get the asparagus. I'm eating asparagus tonight, this'll get me loads of asparagus, slightly sort of eccentric but wonderful and so welcoming. And got her spaniel ziggy stardust there. But lots of his original work, and there's some wonderful things where he's there was one print which we loved, quite expensive, where he'd obviously come to the end of an art book, you know, with a spiral down through the centre. And he just drew this beautiful landscape of the seashore, and it went the entire page, so the spiral is in the middle of the painting. Oh, yeah. And it's being framed and on the wall there, and yeah, just really lovely. I've always been a a real admirer of his work. So we took my mum there because she she paints quite similarly to him. A lot of watercolours, um, and some acrylics, but uh yeah, it was lovely. Really, I would urge anybody who's in that area who's into art to go to his uh galleries in colour.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Oh I'll have to check him out. I've never heard of him.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Tiny again? John Knapp Fisher. K-N-A-P P Fisher.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Oh, I love it. Londoner. He opened his gallery there in 67.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Right. It's from away, as they say.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

It's from away, and he settled him but just fell in love with Pembroke.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

He's come from away, I'll see.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

Um, but really evocative of that area, that white he really captures the wildness of the land.

SPEAKER_01 59:24

Yeah, Pembrokeshire's lovely, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Yeah, it's beautiful, and we had a beautiful week. Weekend, long weekend. It was absolutely beautiful. The weather was just the sunset. Yeah. You forget because uh like you, we've both got a family down there. You've your uh husband's family is down there, and mum Michael's from there. Um so we go there a lot all through the year, and many a time you're there and it's pissing down, isn't it? Oh yeah, usually, and bloody windy. And windy. But you forget when it's sunny there, there's so much sky there. Yeah. I know that sounds mad, but it's just so much space. Yeah. And the weather is so important in places like that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean, that's the place I went to on the weekend, my you know, I was like, oh my god, this is heaven, this is paradise, and then thinking, yeah, actually, if it was raining, it wouldn't be so great. It'd be very bleak. So it's the weather, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

But uh, if you're down in Pembrokeshire, North Pembrokeshire, uh, and you're going to St David's on the way, stop off at Kroyskor. It's literally a crossroads, it's a one-horse town. Go and see John Abfisher's gallery, and then afterwards, just literally opposite the cottage, down the lane, go down to the sloop for a wonderful fish and chip lunch on the harbour.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Oh god, that sounds perfect!

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

That does sound absolutely perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

Oh, lovely. That was our that was one of our days last weekend.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:50

Very nice. And that wouldn't be so bad as good. That would be so good as good.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:54

That's so good. It's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

So good, it's even better.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

And it's I'm thinking how eclectic we are, you know. We've had a shit horror by Ken Russell, who I think is probably a bit of a misogynist. We've got a dreadful and yet hugely successful reality franchise that is all about women and yet kind of negates women and shows them in the worst light.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

We've had a what period would you call it? Victorian? For my more safe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

Or potentially Regency, maybe? Late 80s.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:28

Regency uh contraption to stop grave theft. Mm-hmm. And then we've got an art gallery and a pub lunch. Lovely. I mean, we're giving it all, yeah. We uh it's something for all tastes. All tastes, I think. Yes, yeah. Come one, come all. Come one, come all. It's a big court. Try it on. Lovely to see you, my love.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Lovely to see you as well, and I shall see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

Next time when we'll have another whose court is that jacket, old friends. Newcomers.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:03

Hello.