Episode 17: The People Behind the Medals

In this episode of the Spink Insider Podcast, Head of Medals Marcus Budgen returns alongside medal specialist Robert Wilde-Evans for a thoughtful and personal conversation about how they both found their way into the world of military medals.

Together they discuss the honour and privilege of working with objects that represent the lives, service, and sacrifices of men and women across history. Each medal carries a story, and uncovering those stories offers a powerful connection to the past. 

This episode is a warm and fascinating look at the people behind the medals, and the remarkable stories these small objects can tell.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Spink Insider, the podcast where history is valued. I'm Robert Wilde Evans of the Medals and Special Commissions Department here at Spink, and I'm joined today by Marcus Budgeon, also of the same department. Welcome Marcus.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hello again.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Our chat today, we th we thought it wouldn't necessarily be on a particular theme, but it's good to explore basically a few key questions that a lot of our medal clients uh tend to ask us. And I in in the course of the chat I think we're going to cover such questions as how did we end up here at Spink? Um, do we collect medals ourselves? Uh what are our favourite medals that we've encountered during our careers here? And generally sort of why do we do what we do?

SPEAKER_02 1:01

It's a great and um, you know, you know, how on earth do you end up doing this sort of thing? So um, you know, we've both been here quite a long time now, and we're not too cynical about the subject, I hope. Um, but it's really, you know, these are questions which we get asked kind of every day of the week, um whether it's on the telephone or someone walks through the door with a bag of medals and they say, Gosh, you know what, you know, the the first question is, you know, how do you get into this so young? Um, which I think you'll share. And then also sort of, you know, how and why, and you know, it's it's a really interesting place. Everyone in all the different specialist departments, I think, has their own kind of niche where they've fallen into it one way or another, and there's no sort of set route. Um, so again, you know, uh what's your journey to SPING?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah, um, so that's a great place to start, really. And I suppose for me, I've always been interested in military history since I was probably about five or six years old. Um I grew up in South Wales um and spent a lot of time when I was young with my grandparents, um, because my parents both worked, and so grandparents would, you know, collect me after school and all that sort of thing. And my both my grandparents lived in Africa during much of their adult lives. And in fact, my grandfather was born in East Africa, as was British East Africa, in fact, in 1917, so during the First World War. Uh the reason being that his uh his father, indeed his parents, had met out in British East Africa during the First World War. My great grandfather was a an army officer out there, and my great grandmother was a nurse, and I'm going to return to one of these medals I have in front of me on that topic in a little while. Uh my grandmother had travelled to Africa herself during the Second World War. In nineteen forty-four, she decided that she was going to go and teach in a school in Africa. And so you know, it's amazing thinking about it. This young lady got on a ship during the Second World War, on a transport, and sailed out to East Africa, you know, I and and decided to make a new life for herself, to totally off her own back. And so after the Second World War, my grandparents met and got married, and my father was born out there in 1957, and uh then they came back to this country in 1960. And so growing up, I spent a lot of time with my grandparents, and they uh would um they would tell me lots of stories about what life was like, and it sort of captivated me, really, and I would see lots of you know old black and white photographs of them and you know out in the out in the countryside and on their farm and then I started to sort of ask more questions, right? You know, what grandad, what what did you do during the war?

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Uh and he then showed me his own medals. Um you know, he was an army officer, he was a a captain in the King's African Rifles, and afterwards in the Kenya police during the uh the Mao Mau period in the 1950s, um a pretty a pretty horrible time. He obviously didn't talk as much about that as he did about his his war experiences. Um and um and I sort of really I started asking what medal is that? Why did you get that medal? Where did you have to go to finding the story behind them? Yeah. And it sort of developed from there, really, and and he he was very happy to talk to me and took me to lots of regimental museums. And uh one of my sort of earliest memories is going to the South Wales Borderers Museum in Brecon. Yeah. Famous, of course, for the you know well, it's a famous regiment with the Zulu War connection, of course. And uh he he would fondly remind me of sort of going round sort of hand in hand and pointing out all these medals, probably as a sort of seven-year-old, and some old curator who's sort of an ex-colonel or something like that, um remarking and you know, astonished that this little boy would know so much about medals. Um and so so yeah, and it went from there and developed into, you know, playing with model soldiers, being bought films, famous war films for sort of Christmas and birthday presents, you know, Zulu and Waterloo and all those kinds of things. And it sort of developed from there really and and um and so I history was always my favourite subject at school. Uh I then was lucky to uh do a degree, an undergraduate degree in war studies at the University of Kent in Canterbury, uh which I thoroughly loved, then moved up to London, then got a job at the Guards Museum at Wellington Barracks, which was my sort of introduction to the proper kind of study of military history in a getting to herball though and see things on a day-to-day kind of place and a wider context and talk to people about medals and military history. Um from there I went to the National Army Museum at Chelsea. Uh after that I went to Apsley House to to the Wellington Collection, um, which is where I ended up meeting my wife, uh which is a rather charming story that may be told at some other some other time. And um then after a little divergence into the world of of uh shoemaking, which again I I may come back to at some future point, um I uh I found myself at Spink, and I believe that was in fact through meeting you.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

It was. I think it was one of these strange things, you know, everyone here kind of seems to follow a slightly circuitous route, but they make it in the end, you know, the right people kind of find the right fit. And um yes, back to your shoes, I think, is a good point to go back to. Anyone who attends the uh you know the drinks parties, you know, can can you know gaze in amazement at the quality of Robert's shoes. Um the evidence of his time um on German Street um is is evidenced by his uh you know, not just his fine medal collection, but his very fine shoe collection as well. So admire their face in the in the polishing exactly. It's uh everyone has their own sort of way into it, and that's you know, I think it's it's one of those things that once you explain that to people and say, well, you know, yes, it's a lifelong passion, and you know, you followed obviously that route of of the the museum kind of uh trajectory, but actually I think a lot of people um that maybe do work experience here in other departments or end up as full specialists find that actually having the opportunity to handle these um you know amazing objects that we do get to to play with and handle on a day-to-day basis, um, you know, is much more fulfilling and there's much more opportunity to do it in an auction house in that commercial setting. Um, but also the lovely thing that we do have here in the department is we're kind of always wearing several hats, and that's what people kind of I find I'm asked quite a lot is uh you know, yes, you do sell these things at auction, but it's also having that understanding to stand back and say, well, you know, we need to look at this for a for a family's perspective, for a museum's perspective. And again, you know, you and I both spend a lot of time not just selling medals and preparing them for auction, but advising um military museums, schools, families, regiments about their collections to understand them, understand the historical importance and where they sit. Um and again, that's where the sort of you know, I think we are so lucky um to to get to do that on a day-to-day basis. And again, it's where the long history of, you know, uh the name of Spink obviously goes back into the into the 17th century, but the world of medals is quite a it's quite a new hobby, it's quite a young hobby, it's not as young as as banknotes, obviously, um, but it it only really goes back into the 19th century. Um so I know our colleagues from the stamp department have talked about you know the world of philatelics and how that's developed, but um, you know, I find the the development of medal collecting as a you know proper accepted subject is is quite interesting the way that it, you know, if you look at catalogues, uh sale catalogues, you know, the numismatic circulars which go you know nicely back into the 19th century, there's always a few kind of military medals tapped on at the end with no real interest paid to them. Um and so it did take a bit of time before they were really appreciated and studied by proper collectors. Um that early time is really interesting, you know, from Waterloo, you know, the soon as guys came off the field, they were going into the market, weren't they? I think that's quite an interesting sort of subject, which you know, if we trace from, you know, 1815 forward, in the 1820s you were starting to see these medals appear on the market, which is quite a sort of it's quite an unusual thing, and I think that's where my personal interest and yours, you know, probably stems from is yes, it's it is a coin at the end of the day. This is a this is a coin with a lovely colourful ribbon on it, but you know, you've got the historical and political context of the effigy of of the monarch, the campaign depicted on the back, and often, you know, the classical depiction of some of these campaigns and the uh the forces that are involved, are then also kind of um uh interspersed with that social history that really gets us excited because you know we're very lucky that we do get to handle, you know, military general services, QSAs, um, you know, all these lovely campaign medals, but you get the story of the man or the woman behind the medal coming into it as well, which I I find really kind of that's what excites me, you know, that's what gets gets me going about the the subject anyway.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Oh, totally. And I think we're going to come onto that in a little bit more detail shortly. And and what I also find interesting, you're talking about the um earlier sales and the um the sort of listings of things for sale, is just how trends have changed over time, in that you know, you look at some of the the um the early you know 1890s numismatic circulars, and you might see a listing for a military general service medal, and it will just have you know private so-and-so of ex regiment of foot, then the next listing below will be Ditto and Ditto and all the rest of it. And there's no biographical information, there's no desire to share any of that individual's story.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

And we've found that, haven't we, with kind of old collections that come our way from sometimes from the nineteen forties and fifties, where collectors were just wanting an example of type. Yeah. They didn't care what the individual did. They just wanted an example of a Waterloo medal, an example of a Queen South Africa medal, an example of a Baltic medal, and they crossed that off the list, and then it was on to the next one.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Yeah, I think that's the development of the hobby from it being more of a gap-filling exercise, much like building a stamp collection, perhaps, and collecting all the denominations of a particular reign or a particular country, um, to actually being, you know, the story of the individuals. So again, you look at those old famous collections, and yeah, somebody might have collected the 88th foot, but they were just looking to get, you know, as many classes to the MGS they could, good examples in the best condition, whereas now, you know, yes, we obviously still grade the medals and it's still a really important part of the subject for their kind of intrinsic beauty. Um, you know, if you've got a lovely, crisp medal that's clearly, you know, been looked after but not been polished or not been knocked around, that's great. But you know, if you've got a cavalry a medal to a cavalryman and it's in mint condition, you think, well, what happened? Because why didn't this guy end up wearing it and you know uh knocking it about? Um, because it would have been worn obviously on a daily basis if they'd have stayed in, sort of thing. So that's you know, that's really where it it it sort of uh diverges, and you know, John Hayward, you know, who I was very lucky to get to spend a couple of years with, um obviously now sadly departed, was really the the doyen of the field in the sort of sixties, seventies, eighties. Um and you can still go and buy the medal roles that he produced, which really built on the you know the story of the man. He really saw that and saw the opportunity there to make this a more interesting subject because again, you know, I may have a cabinet or a drill a drawer full of QSAs at home, and yes, I want to represent all the clasps that the particular regimen I collect were there, but you know, if you came and looked at them, I wouldn't be saying, Oh, and this is a five clasp and it's got these the combination. I'd be saying, well, this was you know, Captain Snooks, for example, who was wounded on this day, and you know, that's when one of his brother, you know, brother officers won a Victoria Cross or something like that. That's more what we're interested in now. And actually, and this is uh a little booklet which we were passed at um the Orders and Medals Research Society annual convention last year. Um so this is a very recent um acquisition for the department, uh, and it wasn't very expensive, thankfully. Um, but this is actually the first 11 editions of the Medal Circular, which was published from November 1896, because before that, the um, you know, as I said, the medals were covered in the numismatic circular, um, but just at the end. Um, but this is really groundbreaking because actually, not only have you got you know actual sketches um and rubbings of the medals, but actually you've got some examples of research being covered, which was you know, this is fifty plus years ahead of its time. Um, and again, kind of our USP today is that we're gonna go the extra mile when we write something up. If there's a story to be told, we're gonna go off down that ferret hole and find it. But you know, the department was still doing it back in the back in the 19th century, which is really interesting to see.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah, yeah, totally. Um I think it's uh you know it's a fascinating historical record of the development of metals and metal collecting. Um But let's let's go back a little bit, um, if we may, digress maybe very slightly. Um tell me how you ended up at Spink and your background and why you like metals so much, because I think you started or you wanted to go into some sort of science-related profession. Am I going to be?

SPEAKER_02 15:58

You're correct. I uh where it all went wrong for me was um uh an interview at uh Southampton University Medical School, uh, which I failed to come up with the correct answers uh to get onto the course that I had originally planned to go and do was to go and read medicine and go down that uh go down that rabbit hole. Um but uh medal collecting had always been a little bit like you, something which had um been my passion. You know, I love playing sport and all those things you do as a as a young boy. Um but local history and then medals was something which was introduced uh and really sort of uh encouraged by my grandmother and my father. So my you know, my family have been in the same sort of hamlet uh in an in the corner of of Surrey, but on the corner with uh West Sussex and and Kent for um five hundred years plus, and so actually the year before Spink was founded, one of my relatives, Thomas Budgeon, uh built uh the windmill at Outwood in 1665, um, and it's still the oldest working windmill in England, which is a great little family factoid. Um, and obviously the year before Spink was founded and the year before the Great Fire, and they said that you could see the Great Fire of London uh from from the windmill because it's only 30 odd miles as the crow flies to London. And so on the the Hamlet War Memorial, there's 12 names, uh, and one of those names is Harry Budgeon, um, who was killed uh as a private soldier with the 7th Battalion, uh the Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment uh on the Somme in 1916. So every year um, you know, on Remembrance Sunday we would go and see the laying of Rees, and I'd always see the name and always be sort of intrigued as to, you know, I was just surrounded by this sort of local family history. And um, you know, as a as a young eight or ten-year-old, as the story goes, we were on the uh the south coast at the air uh the airborne show at Eastbourne in a really good um sort of uh air show, and um a stool was selling coins and medals, and as a as an eight or ten-year-old, um I called for for two pounds of my pocket money uh ahead of time and purchased a um a miniature 1939 to 45 star. So that's really where it all went wrong for me. Um and then every Christmas um I would be uh you know, the first thing on my Christmas list would be a copy of uh of the Medal Yearbook. Um so our friends at Token Publishing will be pleased to hear that, and you know, maybe that could be quoted next year in the in in the next year's edition, who knows? Um and so uh I was always aware of Spink and because they've uh historically had the back cover of of that that catalogue for 30, 40 years. Um, and so every year you'd get it, and obviously at that age I wasn't able to um um maybe purchase items from such a noble house as Spink. Um but you know, as time went on you were aware of them and made a few small purchases as a as a teenager. Um and then while I was at university, I was sort of not quite sure whether I was going to go into the lab, so I did, you know, it's a long way around me saying I ended up doing biochemistry um at the University of Leeds, which was a you know a fantastic place to go and explore and you know learn about the history going on there. Um, but I was always collecting and buying and selling medals uh all the way through my university years, through you know, local auctions, via you know, the online marketplaces um that we all know and use. Um and you know, so one rainy day um I was meant to be finishing off my dissertation and I kept finding that the medal yearbook kept rising to the top of my cell biology um textbooks uh and packages would keep coming through the post. Um and so I thought, well, why not see if um you know they offer internships? And so um I out of the blue emailed um emailed the medal department because they were the first uh email address on the back of the yearbook, and um I I did my uh week's sort of internship and uh the rest is history. So I came back and joined uh the special commissions department initially, um, but always with a view that uh the medal department was something I would you know would love to you know get the opportunity to work in and and get to handle these uh these treasures. And um, you know, that's 11 and just over 11 years ago now. So um, you know, very lucky to you know have spent time with you know with John Haywood um and then you know to work under David Erskine Hill, who's you know obviously been in you know been in the trade for you know longer than you and I have been around. Um and then when he um went on to the Ashcroft Collection um to take up um take up the post um that I am still still in now and just very much enjoying the the opportunities that we get on a day-to-day basis. Is it's just you know, we we've we don't really work uh you know, we've never really worked a day in our lives, is the feeling I have, you know, every day there's something different. Um, you know, we have that pretty regularly, don't we? We do.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

And I th that's definitely, you know, the the m the bonus or the the the main uh feature or wonderful feature of working here is that every day is different. You never know what's going to walk through the door, who is going to you know telephone you, uh what email is going to pop into your inbox and what is going to happen, you know, from on on a set day, you know, from from 9 a.m. till 5 30 p.m. Literally anything could happen. Yeah. And it's it's a great i it it's wonderful to be able to um experience that and and do a job that you you want to do and that you have a background in, and you can really apply yourself with your skills and knowledge such as they are, to do something really valuable and worthwhile with your with your career.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Yeah, and I think I think all of us in the department, and that's something that we've Had passed down to us with you know the generations, you know, we're very lucky that since the department gained that their own independence, and they're obviously dealers in the early 20th century and you know formed and put together some of the most famous metal collections on earth, you know, Patiala collection put together by Spink. And you know, there was always that opportunity to really if you look at the old catalogues uh of who was buying things, the department were buying all the best things for their best clients over the years. And since um we've sort of transitioned into uh not just being dealers but being auctioneers since 1983, um I think we've we've covered sort of 116 auctions in that period, you know, in the just over a decade, uh, you know, I've been here, there's been 35,000 lots, you know, pass across the rostrum, um, you know, for for something like you know, 25 million, I think, in hammer um in those in that time. Um you know, it's been it's that it's that opportunity to tell the story that's that's untold um as well. So I think that that really does make it interesting. Um and then also the you know the special commissions business is something which you know we both um spend time uh doing. And you know, I think the the sort of historical heritage of the company uh and the department is something which is which is really unique. So, you know, why don't you uh give us a a short precept because we could talk for five hours alone on the history of the special commissions department? Why not give us a bit of a uh a rundown of of of what that is?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Yeah, totally. Um and in fact, you know, like as you said, you know, you started off in special commissions, and I didn't quite start off in special commissions. I spent the sort of grand tale of a week in the stamp department, then a year in banknotes, then special commissions, and then when that sort of morphed into special commissions and medals, I I have we know well we both have the the wonderful opportunity to do both sides of of medal work at Spink. And special commissions essentially means that we are manufacturers of things for people. And it's so in addition to the to the auction side of things, um we we manufacture orders, decorations and medals for comp um countries literally across the globe. And we have a long and distinguished career of doing so that I believe really sort of reached its sort of height in the what do what do you say, sort of nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Yeah, you know, when you know lots of Commonwealth countries were gaining, or you know, ex you know, now Commonwealth countries are gaining independence, and yeah, Spink um was called in alongside generally Delaro and the raw mint, you know, Delarue doing the banknotes, the mint doing the coins, and then Spink the auls and decorations.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Exactly. And you know, we've that's a wonderful thing to be to be able to go into our archive. And sadly it's not as complete as it as it could be, because of course the Spink in its previous premises was badly damaged by German bombs during the Second World War. Um so a lot of a lot of times we receive inquiries about, you know, did you make X, Y, and Z uh for Poland or for wherever? And you say, well, we probably did, but I'm afraid we can't give you any details because it was all lost due to enemy action. Um But the things that are still in existence in the archive are wonderful to read through and to see, for example, one of our remaining pattern books um from the late 19th, early twentieth century, which has rubbings for you know the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Force Cross, dated 1919. And you think, wow, that's that's really, really interesting. And also, of course, a lot of the foreign material that we've made over the years, um the all the orders, decorations, and medals of Omar we we made when now when was it that that was all sort of redone? Was that in the seventies?

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Yeah, seventies and early eighties. Obviously, the Colonel Tinson's book is the sort of go-to reference, and obviously you've got a mix of you know, the the usual suspects, shall we say, of the London manufacturers, but the weight of it was carried by the workshops of Spink. Um and yeah, it's it's a great sort of tradition. You know, there's a story of in the 1980s of one of our um actually passed down by um you know Anthony Spink, who was, you know, a lovely the last member of the Spink family to to work in the business. It was a non-executive director until his passing, um, sadly a few years ago. But again, a lovely man, and he tells you know fabulous stories of one day coming into the office, I think after a a long lunch, um, as was as was De Rigaur of the of that era, um, to find um that they'd been looking all over London for him to see where he was, because there were five monarchs all sat around waiting for him. But apparently they'd all you know they'd been given a a pot of tea and they were all sw swapping notes and having a jolly old time. And um, you know, that that was uh that was a real big part of the business. Um, you know, it's um it's one of those lovely old traditional relationships we have with a lot of these um the royal households, uh armed forces, but also um British and worldwide institutions, and um, you know, it's the the quality um of craftsmanship often now in in much smaller quantities than in it you know in in days gone when they were turning out you know 10,000 medals for a particular police force or a an air force which was being formed um somewhere across the globe. Now it's those really high quality, small production um in a you know small workshop where it's all done by hand. You know, that people that want the very, very best, whether they are one-off diamond set um orders, whether they're uh you know the the highest grade or collar chains um to be to be issued by a a monarch or or head of state, um, we still remain the kind of go-to place um globally for that for that work.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah. Which is and it's wonderful, again, to see these sorts of things that are or that we can produce. And I suppose an example of the quality is that you know it's it's so easy now and with modern technology for sort of CAD cam and and everything to be done in sort of almost you know 3D printing and all that sort of thing. But you know, we make a point of not going down that road. You know, all the dies for our orders, decorations, and medals are still cut by hand. And of course, that takes a lot longer. It's it's a lot more expensive, yeah. But conversely, the quality is unmatched. A computer cannot compete Yeah, with an artisan.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

Um I think that really again that sort of mirrors in, you know, when you look at, you know, our metal catalogues, for example, they're the thing that, you know, above all with our department, it's the thing that we look at at the end of the year and say, are these the finest catalogues on the market? Because if they're not, we're doing something wrong. And it's the same with our special commissions business. We'd much rather do smaller quantities uh of the very finest quality. And again, I think that is kind of um again confirmed that we we are still keeping those traditions going by you know, we're very proud obviously this year to have our um our royal warrant, um, the transfer of our monarch's royal warrant from from the late queen to to his majesty. Um again, continuing, you know, over a hundred and we're now 128 years continually holding uh the sovereign's um you know, the sovereign's royal warrant as medalists. Um the stamp department also have the the philatelic um royal warrants, so it's something that we're very proud of and something that we're proud of not being the ones to drop the ball on. Um but it it's something that we still um take very seriously and and have a great um you know have a great deal of of pleasure keeping that relationship um going in this country.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

And keeping it current. And I don't know of another auction house that has this sort of dual role. I don't think so, no.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

I think it's something which maybe a few uh houses over the years have had, but but not not for this period of time, no, you know, no way. Again, the same with the the late Duke of Edinburgh. You know, we were one of um I believe it was eleven um various companies which were his original grantees, um, and at his passing, um I think nine or ten still remained, and we were one of those. So that again that's a really um long, you know, happy, healthy relationship of providing the services that we do, um, and and kind of being recognised, something we're very proud of. Obviously, we carry it on all of our, you know, you can see I'm I've looking at a couple of old Spink um display boxes which a few a few treasures are housed in, and obviously they they carry they carry the the the ciphers of of previous monarchs, so something we're very, very proud of um here. But um so we we've covered a little bit of of how we both ended up here. Uh it's always a security route, so everyone's got a story. Um and sometimes you get the the airport version and sometimes you get the scenic route as we've just taken. Um but the question is what do you collect? You know, so do you collect? We've both we've both said yes, we haven't no commented just yet. Um but but yeah, so what do you collect?

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah, well, that's a it is a very good question. Um I I would love to collect a lot more than I do. Um that's and I but I'm sure most collectors could say that. So I essentially have um one main theme and a couple of sub themes. And indeed I think most collectors probably do something along those lines. So as I mentioned earlier, my family used to live in East Africa, and so uh when I was properly starting to think about medal collecting, I realised that that would be a really good theme to go to go to. So I enjoy collecting medals for the East African campaigns, uh generally for the Great War in East Africa, rather than uh pre-Great War tends to tends to be quite sort of um hotly collected and quite expensive, to be honest. Um, and post-Great War tends to be quite difficult to research. Quite.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

So you're trying to hit that hot spot of you know opportunities to acquire, but also research and you know, have enough because the worst thing is um, and again we do hear this sometimes is you ask uh conversely, we'll ask someone about what do they collect, and they say, Oh well, I I collect men who were served in B Company, 3rd Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment, who were killed in action on the 6th of August 1918, who also hailed from Edinburgh. They say, Oh, that's fascinating, sir. How did you how many in your collection? All I haven't found any just yet. So you have to be able to buy things. That is that's something that we also impress upon people, have a theme, but have a theme that you can really you know get your teeth into and and develop over time. So sorry, I've got I've gone off on one now. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

So tell us more about the Great War in East Africa. So the Great War in East Africa. So um, first of all, family medals are the sort of centre point of my collection, and of course, those will those will never be sold in my lifetime. Um I haven't bought all my family medals uh with me um today, but I think that may well be the subject of a future podcast. Um so I will just very briefly talk about one of my family medals, which is this uh actually not East Africa but South Africa, this um Queen South Africa medal for of course the Second Anglo-Bore War. And uh it is it was awarded to my great great grandfather and it is named a Captain L. R. Evans Railway Pioneer Regiment. And so he was living in South Africa, um he was a mining engineer uh and very much involved with gold mines and diamond mining and that kind of thing. Um he'd originally trained in India, moved to South Africa, and then when the Boer War happened, he of course signed up to do his bit, and because he had experience of engineering, uh the railway pioneer regiment essentially their job was to uh maintain the the railways, the armoured trains, you know, repair bridges, uh fill in culverts, you know, repair sort of if the Boers try to blow up railway lines.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Um in talking Africa and campaigning, you know, you look at things like you know the Abyssinia campaign, a little bit, you know, little bit early, 40 years earlier than than than the book Anglo-Boar war, th the railway angle is something which is so intrinsic to that campaign because obviously we're talking about such long distances. These guys in in units like that with skills of building railways, is a damn dangerous job because you've got to think about you know the sort of tip and run, this is where the commando tactics that you know Churchill then employed in the Second World War, you know, with the formation of SOE, the the actual commandos, you know, that came from the Boar War spelt with a K at the start, you know. You see though you see those units. So, you know, your great grandfather was obviously you know faced up against that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yeah, yeah, very much so. Um and then yes, the family moved to East Africa, and um I said I will show the family medals relating to that at some at some future point. But I have one um single British war medal. It is um part of a broken group, so there are other medals to this recipient, but uh this medal is named to a a nursing sister, um and her name was Lily Mer Merriweather and Lily Merriweather served alongside my great grandmother in Nairobi uh during the First World War in in basically the British sort of military hospital there. And I know that for certain because I have a a family photograph album annotated underneath each photograph, and there is one photograph of three ladies uh in the grounds of the hospital in sort of 1915, and my great-grandmother is in the middle, and uh Nurse Merriweather is standing on her left.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

So again, that's the sort of magic of collecting, isn't it? The sort of you know, a simple single British war medal can have so much story behind it. And again, we all get great pleasure of buying these things, and you know, the hunt is still on for that. That group, you know, sometimes when you buy a group, you know you've done absolutely everything. But with Nurse Merriweather, obviously the hunt goes on, and you'll always be sort of keeping eyes open for her victory medal, hoping that it it it might surface. Um, and again, that that's you know, the nursing service in East Africa obviously, malaria rife. Um I don't know the casualty rates for for that campaign, but I'm sure it's a bit like the Burma campaign of the Second World War when the attrition rate, you know, yes, it might have been sort of 200% over a you know a couple of year period, but the actual casualty by enemy contact is is a tiny fraction of of those who suffered. So, you know, ladies like her were in the thick of it, and um, you know, obviously it was good matchmaking because obviously she is how your uh grand grandmother met your grandfather.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

A great yeah, great sort of great grandfather classic story of being literally wounded in action fighting against Von Leto Vorbeck's Schutztrupper in the in the bush. And uh then yeah, wounded in action, went to hospital and was nursed by the lady who he fell in love with and they were married, and then my grandfather came along in 1917. Yeah. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

So that's the sort of that's the sort of um yeah, classic thing of you know just a yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Slightly cliched, but it did actually It did happen, exactly. Yeah. And then sort of finally to sort of round off my collecting interests um briefly.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

So my one of my other great loves is the Napoleonic Wars, as most people will know from previous series and and the long and the excellent uh, you know, and you know uh the best researched write-ups I think that that go out um are you know, most of you will know Robert's production and uh something here to illustrate that, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

You're very kind. Um and I don't I don't really know why, but again, when I was very young, I think I watched the film Waterloo, you know, with Rod Steiger as Napoleon and Christopher Plummer as the Duke of Wellington, and when you know they the there were there was no CGI, you know, there were tens of thousands of extras playing you know the British, French and Prussian uh also rather the Allied French and Prussian uh armies. And I it really captivated me how warfare was fought in the early nineteenth century, and of course, across the globe as well. It wasn't just in Europe, it was in America, in you know, Java, i in in sort of Spain, Portugal, the Mediterranean, all over the place. And so this has still remains one of my great passions, and I'm again very fortunate with what I do here in that I get to handle some amazing Napoleonic medals and research and write them up to to go in our catalogue. But I can't afford to collect too many of them. Very few of us can be. They are expensive, but I have one in my collection, and it is this very, very nice uh military general service medal with three clasps for three peninsula battles, uh or rather two sieges in a battle. So we have Fuidad Rodrigo in eighteen eleven, Badahov in eighteen twelve, and Salamanca in eighteen twelve. And this was awarded to an officer called John Lorraine White, who was a Lieutenant in the thirtieth Regiment of Foot, the Cambridges. And I was very lucky, you know, the stars aligned a couple of years ago and I was able to make the purchase. Because again, there's a fascinating story to tell about uh Lieutenant White, and in fact he is also missing a medal, so he also fought at the Battle of Waterloo as a captain in the fourteenth Foot. So I hope one day that I will be able to find that medal. But basically there's I bought it because it's a it's such an evocative thing with three really interesting clasps, uh and there's lots of story to tell about him as well. He he actually died as late as eighteen seventy-nine. Oh well, so was I think was about ninety years of age, uh and a really amazing longevity for that period. And in fact, died as one of the military knights of Windsor. So was living in Windsor Castle.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Yeah, so again, another sort of uh rank which sort of remains to this day in a lovely sort of uh tradition. So tell us, you know, for those who don't know the about the Knights of Windsor, who are they and you know, where does he fit into this then?

SPEAKER_00 41:22

So uh essentially the the military knights are all retired army officers. I well I believe there are now um I think possibly the odd RAF officer and Royal Marine officer here here and there as well. They used to be Naval Knights of Windsor, and in fact I think we sold an NGSM to a naval knight a few years ago, which again I enjoyed researching and writing up. But the military knights, all retired sort of relatively senior officers. I think you have to be a Lieutenant Colonel as a minimum, although I might I might be slightly wrong on that now. Um but they they are given a a place to live in Windsor Castle, a nice little cottage, um, on the understanding that they must um attend all the church services uh in the chapel at at Windsor Castle. They must help with guided tours of the castle as well, show so short show tour groups round and parade for special occasions such as the annual Garter service, which some of our viewers may well have seen on um you know on YouTube and all that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Yeah, absolutely. I think um one of our former colleagues is is is now happily residing there, isn't he? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Indeed, Charles Webb, uh who used to do sort of a combination, I think, of our jobs. Um was an ex uh or retired army officer, Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, I believe, and then was given the call. Would you like to do this job? And um and yes, occasionally still invites us round for lunch and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

So no, it's a lovely sort of um you know tradition. Again, with you know things like laying in state and things like that, they're obviously out, very prominent, um, very um uh attractive uniforms uh and headdress uh that they wear as well. So they are uh highly recognisable to anybody visiting, you know, or or watching sort of big state occasions, they are very much at the front and centre. So White um would also have have been there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

And that's a wonderful, again, little bit of history that you're holding in your hand. Not just someone who has marched through Spain and Portugal, stood on the field at Waterloo on the 18th of June 1815, but then went on to, well, live in Windsor Castle and undoubtedly have some connection with you know he would have seen Queen Victoria on a regular basis. And you're just connecting all that history together in one simple medal. And that uh again, I I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Yeah. I think when you sort of explain that to to people, people say, Oh, it's it's very strange you're you know, you're you're you're collecting dead people's medals which is something that uh that people do say, you know, why Do you do this? It's a sort of fascination, I think, for people on outs on the outside of the circle. But once you actually understand a little bit the sort of motivations and the sort of history, you know, it's totally natural, you know. Your connections to East Africa, your you know, your deep interests in in the Napoleonic wars. Uh, you know, why wouldn't you collect? Because it it tells a story, and also these are often the only objects beyond things like census records of these people. These are the living uh it exist, you know, the fact that they existed. Yeah and without um medal collectors, you know, we are you know, collector is a bit is a bit of a dirty word, I think, in in some circles, but we are the custodians of this history and you know deeply care about the individuals and looking after their objects, yeah. Um researching them, telling their stories, writing articles, displaying them, sharing the subject, and hopefully, you know, maybe the people watching this will will will, you know, I'm sure they'll get a flavour of our our passion for their for their services and sacrifices along the way.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

And if we didn't do it, then these people would be forgotten forever. Yeah. Um and then finally for me, um a very recent purchase, actually. So this is a Victorian volunteer long service medal awarded to a private a private pike, as a matter of fact, um of the Inns of Court Rifle Volunteers. And I said I I purchased this very recently, so I haven't actually done very much research into him yet, but I wanted to mention him because this is another one of my sub themes. And the reason that I bought this medal to the Inns of Court Rifle Volunteers is I spent a few years myself until recently as an army reservist, or sort of uh the TA in sort of old money, um in the current iteration of the unit, the Inns of Court and City Yeomanry. Uh and so again, some of our listeners and viewers may know that I was an army reservist for a little while. I started off in the honourable artillery company over in the city, and then transferred to the Inns of Court and City Yeomanry. And so whilst in both those units I've again really engaged with their regimental histories, and especially because they're both volunteer units, they are almost exclusively s sort of staffed by people who had, you know, another job around their military lives. And so um basically the Inns of Court rifle volunteers that became the Inns of Court OTC that became the Inns of Court Regiment that became the Inns of Court and City Yeomanry always had a connection with the legal world because they are still to this day based at Lincoln's Inn, which is about a ten minute walk from our office here. And indeed, Private Pike was a barrister at at Lincoln's Inn, so a classic example of a young man joined the unit in at the age of twenty-nine and uh was a barrister in his full-time job, but then wanted to do his bit as a rifle volunteer with the inns of court. And so um so there aren't too many medals named to the unit in existence, so I'm not expecting my sub theme to increase dramatically, but again, it has a personal connection to me, which is why I like it.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Well we like them, yeah. And again, that's the thing, it might be you know, people do share their interests with us about why they collect certain things. You sometimes see something in a sale make a fabulous price, and you think, oh what what what motivated that person? Maybe they're not the usual suspect who might purchase a particular item, and you ask yourself, well, you know, why? Oh, well, you know, he was from my village, or you know, he went to my school. Um, you know, even very obscure things, you know, he was a you know, he he was a keen uh botanist, or you know, perhaps he was a twitcher and a great ornithologist, something like that, um, that that really sort of interests uh interest folks. So that's um yeah, it's it's um these military medals and the campaigns of these individuals, you know, you can have, you know, like we've seen, a sort of career army officer who whose soldiering was his job and was always going to be his job to you know guys like you know you and I who have day you know full-time day jobs and then like you do, you know, you go off when you have your spare time and you you know you you do your bit um and you you give your time. So that's you know it's a lovely thing that people can still continue that and see the current units. You know, we're very lucky with the the British Army and you know uh the squadrons, even of the you know, the Royal Air Force and the old Royal Flying Corps, that the traditions follow through, and whether it's uniforms, whether it's particular strange things that that you do at your dinner, you know, the the regimental dinners that have passed down, and so you know, you can imagine him um parading on whether it's Remembrance Day, whether it's you know the Lord Mayor show, whatever it is, they they follow through and those traditions still mean something today. Um and that's what really I think yeah, that's what gets us going.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Yeah, totally. But enough about me. So I think it's gotta be over to you now, and you know, what what do you collect and and why?

SPEAKER_02 49:19

So like you, I will I'm very lucky to have a few um not as many as I'd like, but family medals in the collection. And you know, I think all of us, if you have the opportunity to acquire family medals, you buy them and you sort of forget about the cost and worry about that later. Um so again, um in the sort of 1930s, 40s, uh lots of our family medals unfortunately were were sold. Um, and again, this is something we come upon for families, is is getting medals back to families. Whenever there's a a direct link that can be re-established, that is one of the most pleasurable things you can do is to have a family who want to get the medals back. Um, and so um I'm these are one of my sort of most treasured possessions. Um, this is the um distinguished service order pair uh awarded to Brigadier General William Thomas Budgeon. So William and Thomas are both um family names. Um, you know, William obviously um was was one of the chaps who built our built the windmill um and Thomas also follows through. Um and he ended up uh winning his Distinguished Service Order for the Third uh Anglo Burmese War and uh commanded the Royal Artillery sort of flotillas going up and down uh the Irrawaddy River and so got his uh DSO just at the end of 1886, so one of the earliest um DSOs, um and you know, we were able to acquire these back um about ten years ago now. Um and the second they appeared on the front cover uh of a another auction house, um I I we couldn't we couldn't get you know wait for the sale to happen and and acquire them back. Um and you know, you talk about sub themes. Um he after his career with the artillery went like so many uh long-served officers did to India and was actually the military commander for Bombay District in the uh late 1880s, early eighteen nineties, and was uh very prominent in the formation, again talking about volunteer units of a unit called the Bombay Volunteer Artillery. And so one of my sub themes is the Bombay Volunteer Artillery because um my ancestor was was very prominent in getting them officially raised, officially recognised, getting them some old guns that they could use should they need them. Um thankfully they were were not required in that era. They did go and serve um i in East Africa um with the sort of uh the mixed Indian volunteer maxim uh maxim companies um combined with you know the Calcutta, Calcutta uh artillery as well. Um so Bombay Volunteer Artillery is something which again I'm quite fond of, and you know, like you have your um volunteer long service, I have a few uh Indian volunteer long service medals to chaps who served in in the regiment which he he founded. Um so you know, any family member that we can trace, obviously it's just magical to buy them back. Um but as I mentioned, Harry Budgeon, um, you know, from you know who was our relative killed on the Somme in the Great War, um, you know, researching the regiment that he served in, uh, that was the Queen's uh Royal West So Regiment. And so they have the um the honour of being the the second oldest line regiment in the British Army. The second of foot, I think. Second of foot, the old second foot, so only the Royal Scots are older. Um and uh the regiment was founded in 1661 and came as part of uh Catherine of Brigante's uh dowry, effectively, um when the the territory of Tangier uh came as part of that, and so they were raised uh actually on Putney Heath. So on Putney Heath, in amongst all the woods, uh for the the tricentenary, a a lovely large um sandstone sort of monument was raised, and it's still there at the point that they were raised. Um and they became you know originally as the Tangier Regiment and were sent over there to go and garrison um the possession until it was eventually abandoned. Um but the they they have the sort of the honour of being the second oldest uh regiment in the British Army and um existed until 1959 with with various amalgamations of the obviously old county regiments. Um so the Queen's regiment from uh you know the Napoleonic era to amalgamation and beyond is is um what I spend my evenings and weekends researching and and trying to buy medals to. Um so they they obviously um they weren't at the Battle of Waterloo, there was just one staff officer there who served uh served on the staff, so no Waterloo medals, but they were at um they served quite widely in the Napoleonic Wars and uh received about 150 military general service medals uh all told. So quite quite difficult to get hold of and quite expensive when they do surface. Um but talking about sort of local interest, um I've got just uh again a simple, humble uh Great War pair, um, and we talk about volunteers and you've spoken about uh Lincoln's Inn. Um this is the pair um of a chap named Captain Wilbur Chaplin Sharp. And um Captain Sharp um went by uh his stage name was Carol Wilbur, and uh of all things he was born in Washington DC in 1865. Um so an American by birth, and uh he was a relatively well-known um stage actor and um playwright, effectively, and actually lived on Lincoln's Inn. And um he performed all over the world on on the West End at Broadway, um, and when the war broke out, he produced a couple of plays uh about the dastardly Germans, which were being performed up until sort of the middle of 1915. Um and um he actually was commissioned uh into the into the Queen's Regiment uh in August of 1914, like so many went off and volunteered. Um and he joined the 11th Battalion, which were the Lambeth Battalion, so that's a battalion I'm particularly interested in because there is a uh a really interesting privately published battalion history which has uh you know day-by-day accounts of what was happening, the characters that were involved, gallantry awards, the list of all of those who served, things like that, which don't exist for a lot of First World War um, you know, n Kitchener battalions, the the the service and the the volunteer battalions. Um but Captain Sharp uh went over to France um in his 50s uh in May 1916 uh and was wounded by a shell fragment um on the 7th of July 1916. Um he he did suffer some difficulties. Um probably uh you know, his career on the stage, you know, he he didn't mind a drink or two, and so he was actually court-martialed for drunkenness on the march. Oh god. Um, because it it so happened that um he was he was effectively too drunk to march. So he was put upon a horse, uh strapped to a horse by his by by a couple of his comrades, and that was then discovered he was he was pulled up and court-martialed. Um but uh having been he was dismissed in the field um actually appealed this and made such a good account of you know his age and his service that he was reinstated. Um and so you know, for a simple uh British war pair, you've got a founding officer of the 11th Battalion, and it's just um again the research goes on and on, there's photographs of him and all sorts of things. So um that's a you know a lovely little story.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Yeah, what a story.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

Um and the final group um I will show you is again um it has a link back to Spink because this is a group of uh General Sir Edward Owen Fisher Hamilton, who actually was uh he was knighted, so he's the recipient of a KCB. Um he was actually the colonel of the regiment during the Great War, so from 1914 to 1920. Um so in those, you know, you see those classic photographs of the regular battalions going off in early 1914. Um he is actually there in a sort of tropical suit uh with a little hat on, uh serving uh and sending those men off, and sadly so many of those officers did not return, but he was a he was a mainstay, and what I thought I would uh why I thought I would show this group, and it's one of my absolute favourites, is because it basically represents the regiment in the the middle and latter part with the latter part of the 19th century. So the the thing that makes this group very special is um it has both the numbered um so the second regiment of foot as we as we discussed, um, so it actually has a uh a unique Afghanistan medal. So the regiment did not serve in Afghanistan, but he was um serving as as an ADC for the Battle of Kandahar, uh so as a young as a young lieutenant, so he received uh this you know this is the only Afghanistan medal issued to the regiment. Wow. Um named him as a lieutenant, 1st Battalion, 2nd Foot. Um, and then a couple of years later, um, like my relative did, went off to the third Anglo uh Anglo Burmese War, so served uh in battalion battalion strength out there, um, but then was detached um to serve in the Hazara campaign of 1891 and uh in Waziristan in 1894 and 1895. Um so he had a really interesting career. Um by the end of his career, he'd been mentioned in dispatches no less than 14 times and is written up um by Winston Churchill actually in um his his account of the uh the Tirror campaign. Oh yes, that's a very famous account. Really famous and and the the thing again, it's all these special sort of side stories. He was in the the night action at Billot um with the East Kent Regiment when they earned a number of Victoria Crosses, and so Churchill talks about riding back up to the uh the sort of besieged man at Billot uh and coming across Hamilton uh who presented him with his cap which had several bullet holes in it, but thankfully none of them had had caught his head, which were which were pretty fortuitous. Uh, and then he went on to uh command um a battalion and then a brigade um during the uh the Anglo-Boar War. So um it's just one of my absolute favourite groups, and um you know we talk about these things coming around, you know, here, you know, generationally. Um the last time this appeared actually was here at Spink in 1983, uh was acquired by a great collector friend of mine in uh in Australia, and um over several visits to Australia he obviously felt I would be a worthy custodian because again he's had them in his collection for decades, and um you know it was an absolute um treat to be able to uh acquire them and be the custodian for his story. Um so it's uh it's it's a lovely sort of grand slam group for the regiment.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely wonderful, and you know, that represents all those multi-clasp medals. Yeah, it just is an amazing record of his life and military career. Again, that's that's why we do it. Exactly. Yeah, it's as with all these things, it's isn't it such a privilege to to be able to have them and to remember these people and tell their stories.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:48

Yeah, and to share, you know, it's all about sharing. This is you know, if you sit down with any collector, this is the the lovely thing about our hobby. You can sit down with a you know, you can, you know, let's say we have a number of people waiting outside. If you have a few collectors, you can say, Oh well, this this this individual uh he collects this and this lady who's here also collects that. Put them together and you can leave them for an hour and know that there's not going to be there's not gonna be fisticuffs and they're gonna get on just fine, and they'll end up they'll end up being best friends because it's the sh sharing of the hobby. Yeah, I think that uh gets people.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

And I think this is probably a good point to sort of round off with. Again, a question that we're often asked. What's the one favourite medal that you have handled here at Spink in your in your time? Uh I can think of I can think of mine.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

Oh if you can think of yours, you've you've you've clearly prepared much deeper than I have for the for um No Robert, go on, let us let us go with yours.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

So it's quite a recent one. Uh and um I think we we sold it at auction last, if I'm right, last year, I think July 2024, if I recall correctly. And the st I love telling this story because it's it's just got everything going for it. And so I was sort of sitting at my desk one day and the telephone rang, and it was our receptionist who said, Um, there's a lady here with a bag of coins and medals, and so would you mind coming down to look at the medals, please? And so one of my colleagues from the coin department came down and I went down, and together we saw this classic little old lady who'd come in off the street, no appointment, but had a and had a Tesco's carrier bag full of coins and medals, all jumbled up. And so we you took her through to our consulting rooms and my colleague from Coins looked at the coins and I looked at the medals and you know tipped the bag out onto the table, sifting through the contents, and there were some standard, you know, not to be disparaging, but some very standard Great War campaign medals and you say, Okay, that's forty, fifty pounds, that's seventy eight uh seventy, ninety pounds, that kind of thing. But at the bottom of the pile were two little brown paper envelopes. And that's a good start. And that is a good start, because you wonder what is inside. So I opened the first one and it was an Indian mutiny medal with a clasp for luck now. And it was named around the age to a Lieutenant in the Royal Artillery. I thought, okay, well that's good. That's good. That's better than all the other things I've looked at so far. So I said, okay, that's going to be probably a few hundred pounds when I do the research, not a problem. Then I opened the second envelope, and in it was a Waterloo medal. Really nice condition. It's original ring, no ribboned, but everything's correct. Then I looked at the name round the edge and it said, um Lieutenant Colonel Goodwin Colquitt, first foot guards. I remember it well now. I thought, okay, this is this could be seriously good. And so I asked her to wait whilst I took the medal upstairs to go and check in some books and very quickly realized that Goodwin Colquitt was a very well known officer within the Grenadier Guards, or indeed as the first foot guards became it, for the Battle of Waterloo. And in fact, um he's well known for essentially during the battle when the French cavalry was uh was doing its carrying out its massed attacks against the Allied infantry and all these infantry battalions had formed square to repulse the French cavalry charges. At one point a shell, a French shell, sort of sailed over the ridge and landed sort of s sort of fair and square splat in the mud in the centre of Goodwin Colquit's square. And I managed to find an original diary extract from another officer who was there at the time to say that basically without further thought, Colonel Colquitt picked up the shell as if it were a cricket ball and hurled it outside of the square where it then exploded without doing harm to him or any of his men. And you think, wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:09

Wow, yeah. I remember it, you know, I remember when you came up and there was glee on your face, so we could tell there was something good about to happen. And then yeah, no, when that discovery was made, that is the sort of the magic. I think that was serialised also in the end, um, in a set of was that not cigarette cards that we found later?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:26

Yes. So in um in 1915 to commemorate the centenary of the Battle of Waterloo, a set of, you know, Will's cigarette cards was planned but never published. The idea was that because we of course we were fighting the French in 1815, by 1915 we were their allies. Exactly. Um and so the proposed um set never went ahead. But facsimile copies exist, and one of the subjects chosen for those cigarette cards was Goodwill Goodwin Colquit's. act of courage in throwing the shell outside the square. So it all came together. But what was really kind of nice about it as well that this lady had no idea. It was almost it was an it was kind of an antiques roadshow moment, if I might, you know, use that sort of analogy. And she came in just wanting our opinion and expertise because I seemed to recall she said, well if they're not if they're not worth anything, I'll take them to the local car boot sale and get twenty quid for them or whatever. But she came into us and I was very lucky to be able to identify this medal, this recipient and that had been this medal had been languishing in a in a in the bottom of a Tesco's carrier bag for for probably decades, unloved, uncared for, unknown. And so we consigned the medals. I did the research, you know, did a probably a three or four page catalogue entry. I had the privilege then to stand on the rostrum on auction day and hammer that single Waterloo medal down for twenty thousand five hundred pounds.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:10

It's uh it was the perfect result and you know the vendor I think was you know she couldn't believe you know absolutely couldn't believe it. The medal went off to a fabulous, you know, the very best collection and is being cherished and treasured and continues to be researched and enjoyed. So it's that kind of you know it we try to make it happen as much as we can you know the sort of perfect collision of all of those different factors. And it you know a few times a year that that sort of thing just happens where someone someone walks in. I remember one it must be eight eight years ago at least now where a similar thing happened with a a totally unresearched South Africa 1877-79 um came in named to the you know 1st battalion 24th and you know you see that and you know if you've looked at enough Zulu war medals um your ears should prick up and if they don't you're you're doing something wrong. But thankfully you know a quick scan of the a casualty role and he was sadly killed in action at the Battle of Ishanloana. So again that was a medal which I think was destined for a an online marketplace and had been offered at a few hundred pounds and thankfully that was saved and the story was told and it made maybe made eight or ten thousand it was you know there's too many um there's too many great um you know happy stories of things either being discovered or great historical treasures um that we've been able to handle it's it's just you know I remember um I remember running halfway across the world to to Indonesia uh over a weekend to go and chase down a a very rare gold and diamond set um Thai collar chain um attributed um to the king of Egypt which we sold again must be must be nearly 10 years ago now um uh the opportunity to go and meet uh the the family of of a dam buster uh in Auckland New Zealand two or three years ago now again which bought at a record price um you know hosting uh the polar exhibition which we put on in 2019 and bringing together families collectors museums uh has been an absolute you know joy I think we've sold 14 Victoria crosses at auction in in my time here and every single one of them you know I'm not gonna I can't single out any one of them but you know Arthur Scarf's world record breaking RAF Victoria Cross uh was was absolutely remarkable um Bertram best Dunkley which Harry had a big hand in um several very good Indian mutiny VCs um you know the last one is always the sort of the most memorable um you know Sandy's Clark this summer um really memorable and other treasures you know um uh Lord Chetwood's Field Marshall's bat on um we sold uh the very gallant and unique um posthumous Goose Green MM to Gaz Bingley of two para uh again a very emotive story um and then it's just again the sort of funny places this takes you um you know we've chased you know you and I have been over to Ireland um we've been to you know I've uh you know had the the opportunity to go all across North America to all sorts of strange places uh chasing down medals uh to Australia New Zealand uh as I've said Indonesia um all across Austria you know we saw a fabulous collection of of uh miniature dress medals uh the Stefan Rath collection um which again record breaking and just uh such an opportunity so it's the people uh time and time again you know we we love the medals and it's the medals that hold the story but it's the people uh you know whether it's selling again we we sold a a lovely military cross uh from a chap uh who served in the Mercian regiment um who just left the army won an Afghan um military cross for Afghanistan uh had presented the FA Cup on Sunday um when Manchester City lifted the trophy and he was a Man City fan and um he then came in on the Monday and said look I've got a business I need to set up can will this help me and so I think it's helping real people and telling their stories is is just what what excites me and you know you never know what story you might be charged with next and there is a responsibility you do feel that responsibility to get to tell the story right to tell the story honestly um give both sides of it because we've all got we've all got faults we we all make you know make the same silly mistakes along the way and you see that through people's careers as well when you read up about them whether it's medical records or or whatever it is it's um it it's these these fabulous stories that that keep it going for me anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:03

So absolutely and I I think you know you've nailed it on the head there very nicely. I think that's a that's a wonderful place to end really but I I think what we do exemplifies our our motto really where history is valued. Yeah. It's it's not it's not just about the money, it's not just about the history it's we are historians, we you know we are a business there's no two ways about getting around that but it's it's valuing these things as historical objects and for their for their monetary worth. Yeah. And um yeah I mean I absolutely love it and I know you do too and um it's great fun working in the metal department. Marcus thank you so much for um for for this opportunity to to to chat about our mutual love of medals and military history, why we do what we do here at Spink and what makes us tick. For all of those of you watching and listening I hope you've enjoyed uh what we've had to say here um today. It's a great pleasure to to present this to you and uh well I look forward to I'm sure you will see us both again very soon. Thank you very much indeed.