Albania: The Unknown Border Between East and West - Episode 20

In this episode of the Spink Insider Podcast, Giuseppe Razza and Fernando Martínezexplore the remarkable world of Albanian postal history and hidden stories carried across one of Europe’s most complex frontiers.

Far beyond stamps as objects, this conversation examines what postal history can reveal about empires, conflict, economics, and power. Through rare and extraordinary material, we trace Albania’s position between East and West and discuss how letters, covers, and forgotten postal routes can sometimes preserve details that official history has overlooked.

From unique discoveries and legendary rarities to the personalities behind decades of research, this is a fascinating discussion about history told through paper, ink, and survival across dangerous borders.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, welcome to Spink Insider, the podcast where history is valued. I'm Fernando Martinez in charge of consignments for the Americas for SPIC. And we have here today with us uh Giuseppe Razza, a very talented person. Uh he is an engineering graduated in engineer with full honors. He has worked for major institutions in the world and in Italy, including the Central European Initiative, the European Bank for Development and Reconstruction, the United Nations, the World Bank, the European Commission, and he has also worked uh for the Council of for the Presidency of Council of Ministers of Italy, the Ministry of Transport, if I'm correct, right? Transport, yes. And the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as well. Yes. We will start with the first question. So, what would you say about Albania for someone who does not know anything about the postal history and the history of this country?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Albania is a very fascinating country. So I felt in love with this country for the first time in 1992. And it's very fascinating because there are still the time was very, very a lot of things that was unknown, so secret, so to be explored, to be fun. But still now there are many, many, many things to be discovered, and this is very fascinating. I didn't find anything.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

But you found that there was min uh big room to make room to find out discoveries, yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

At the time I was not okay, my my father was a philatelist so mainly devoted to the Italian collection. But when I started to understand Albania and I met the first philatelist Albanian philatelist, I was immediately in love with all the things that I have to discover. I was I must say at the beginning I was very confused because it's so complicated and so many, many foreign occupation, fightings, rebellions, different also inside the same Albania and different historical periods. So it was very difficult to understand the development of the history of Albania.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Indeed, the research is is huge. We have, for example, here with us one of your books. You you brought six volumes, very thick volumes, I would say like each maybe three centimeters thick almost. Yes. And uh you treat from the early period from the 1700. Yes. I mean, all related to modern history, even earlier, up to the period of the communism, correct? Yes, exactly. And and for that, such a huge research, uh I guess that you needed also some help in Albania.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Which were those Unfortunately not very much, because as they told you at the beginning, uh it was really a black hole. So my research started abroad. You have also to take into consideration that for example, uh until until the establishment of the first alphabet and the first of the Albanian alphabet and also the independence was in 1912. So before the main dokuments and the main information about Albania was dun by foreigners. Usually it was the trajders or the diplomats of the religious missions that was operating in the country. That was was writing letters and saw was kommunikating, was transferring information about the country. So all this dokumentation was a part within the international archives like archives of Venice or the Ottoman Arkivs in Istanbul or in the Vatikan in the Pope. But others, very few are on the market. But the market was not in the Albanian market because Albania was very close during the Commons period, and the people had not the possibility to communicate to travel abroad and so and so was very isolated. So the first part, my first understanding I found abroad. Was there was the collector inside Albania, but only after the independence I found the pieces and so. But the information before that period I found abroad.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

I think that after commenting this, we can explain that there were different periods of dominion. Yes. From the period you are starting, it was the Ottoman period. Yes. And you can maybe explain a little about all those periods and how you indeed found that information also abroad, because the correspondent which originated from some of those local places went abroad. Yes. So the first period was Albania, then you explain us.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yes, this this is very interesting, as I told you, especially for the relation. In fact, my my research, my activity, that is 35 years now of research, started exactly uh uh considering the historical period of Albania. And I tried to be to order all this information within my books. So that means in the 16th century until uh the end of the Republic of Venice, that uh has a strong influence on the Adriatic Sea during the time that was the end of the 18th century. So, for example, I briefly illustrate my job was so for any period, for example, this is the second volume that was after the Republic of Venice. I described the history, all the main events. Then I started to describe the maps in order to find the routes that were followed by the communication, the main places that was, and also how the foreigners saw Albania. The books, so all the documents that I collected, all the ancient books of the traveler. There was British travellers very famous, also French travellers that went in Albania during this very far period. They wrote some books, and so it was difficult to find. Also on the market there was few of them, so very rare books. And then after this, I started to write the postal history. And also the seals that was because the stamps was not existing and said the main documents regarding this, and then I show the letters. So for any period I analyze in the in the in the order matter. So you have yes, all the roles. Of research. So the period was until 1912, Albania was under Ottomans. Okay. And Ottomans were fighting against the European powers. So all the and this Albania was a border between East and West.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

And that is Excuse me if I interrupt. That is something that we have discussed before. That it was really a border between two kind of civilizations, the Eastern and the Western Civilizations.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

But it was the unknown as well. It was the secret border. Okay, were coming with a famous border that was like Semlin, that is very famous also for the for the collector of postalisy, no? And the border between Serbia, where this is the actual Serbia within the Austrian Empire mainly and the Ottoman Empire. This was the famous border was Hungarian, Bulgar Romanian, so also Russian, okay, and also this border with Serbia. But Albania was very far, very little, and so very dangerous. So the passage through this country was very rare, very difficult, very secret. So finding this documentation and so is extremely difficult. But you have also to know that in these small countries were open also because there were traffic, especially secret traffic, you know, also criminal traffics, but also secret traffic, also for for goods and so and these things. But for this it was trader and it was open in consulates. So for example, the Austrian consulate, the French consulate, the Dutch consulate, and so and so. And this consulate uh was acting as postal offices. They handled mail. Yes. Yes. And there were also the couriers, there were Ottoman couriers, Venetian couriers, and so and so. So is not is not only very fascinating in terms of Albania, is most is most important, very rare for the others, for the Venetians, for the Italians, for the Austrians, for the British, for the French, for the Germans, and so that was there and was playing a role, and was uh was was in this very dangerous border between East and West civilization, and it was unknown. Okay, here you can show uh how the Ottoman Albania was at the beginning, so from the 16th century until the end of the uh Ottoman Empire in 1912. So Albania, Ottoman Albania was divided in four villages, as you said. This is the north, Kosovo, Shkotra, and uh this is the south, this is Vila de Ianinga, and this is the east, the villag of Manastia. As you can see, there was a great Albania, and this was uh the uh the so-called uh Venetian Albania or Austrian Albania or French Albania, it was Montanian coast that was not under the Ottoman Empire, but was of the different uh foreign administration that was taking this land. Then in 1912, when 1913, 1912, 1913, 1914, uh this was what was happening in Albania. So the Ottoman Empire was collapsing, and here you can see uh the the Ismail Chemal that who declared independence of Albania arrived here in Blora and has the control only of this territory. So this was the first independent Albania. Then the same here when it was coming here was why? Because the Ottoman Empire was collapsing, the Serbia was taking all this former territory in the central Albania in the North Albania, the Montenegrin was attacking this territory in the north, was occupying this territory of Albania, the Greeks was taking all this territory in the south, and so, and this is why was a lot of different administration in different places of Albania that was former under the Ottoman Empire. But also in the coast was operating the offices of Austria, Austria and 11th, and also of Italy that was Italy 11th. So immediately in this map you can understand all the different administration that was operated in the same place that it was in Albania, originating very extraordinary story for postal history and also Latinism.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Now that we are talking about the difficult communications, for example, uh there is one item in your collection which uh is related to the piracy activity in the Mediterranean. Could you please tell us something about this item which we have here with us?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Yes, this is very nice because uh, for example, uh the main I must say the main my main interest that is also the interest in my point of view that this is my personal consideration that the future of postal history, uh the future also of Philatelia and postal history is the con the story. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Until now was mainly related to Excuse me, the story and the history, what what they can tell us, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:53

What they can tell us. That is not only the seal, the stamps, and so what is written inside. Exactly. Okay. So my strong efforts is to read all the letters and to translate in English. In all the languages. In all the languages. No, I translate it in English. So because they said it is the most common in the uh language all over the world.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

What a minute that you will have to read so many different languages. Yes, yes. You will even have to deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

It's difficult also because it's written in ancient uh script. Yes, uh scripture and so it's very it's very difficult to translate. But after years, now I have uh a good attitude to understand immediately what is written. That was not difficult, not easy at the beginning, but now it's easy for me. This this, for example, letter for the Pirates. I opened the letters because uh side, okay, it was very important. Nice letter because it was transported by the Venetian courier that were connecting Istanbul to Venetia through Qataro. Okay, so crossing all the Balkans, arriving in Qatar, that is actually in Montenegro, going to Scothor, right in Montenegro nowadays, going to the with the ships and arriving in Venice. But when I read what was inside, it was very so. The story was the story of a French boat that was trading, and also during the period in which the Ottoman was fighting with all the European powers, because you you you know that the Ottomans was close to invade all the all Europe during that time, arrived until Vienna, where there was a famous battles they lost, but progressively they were conquering a lot of territory in Europe. So there was a lot of activity on the Adriatic Sea, mainly British, English, English, English boats and French boats and Italian boats, of course. And they were attacked by the Pirates. The Pirates were Albanian Pirates. The most dangerous pirates was the Albanian Pirates. Not only in the Adriatic Sea, but in all the Mediterranean area. They were attacking ships in Tunisia, in Algeria, in Greece, in Malta in Cyprus. They were absolutely very afraid of it. Absolutely, because they were cutting the heads and so was killing everybody, massacring everybody there and so. And this is the history: because this is a French boat that is arriving immediately after an English ships were attacked, and all the crew was uh massacred. He said, Okay, I arrive here. I issued a flag, and despite the issue of the flag, the pirates shoot to he used that flag just to let them know that.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

No, no, I'm impissed. I'm impissed. He was a trader, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

But the shoot uh they didn't care. Fortunately, it the shoot doesn't uh go over the projectiles weren't uh very close to them. Very close. And then he immediately sent uh a small boat with the with the pirates or yes, no no no the the French to the Pirates to say we are French, we are French, no, we are not English, no? And so and then okay, the Pirates started the discussion because they were massacring all the English uh ships, and it was before the English ships, and for this he was writing to the to the to the consular to the ambassador, no, okay. I negotiated, I paid a bribe. I gave to pay them? Yes, to pay them. He gave uh a lot of uh this material that they have. We are a peace. But so I saw what they did with this poor british kreju and saw there and I started the protest. I assume that also the with the with the Sultan. Because the Sultan also has a very position. Said okay, these are Pirats. Nothing to do with the reality, they were using the Pirates. They have agreement with the Pirates to attack also the foreign ships. So the story for example of this lettre is very important also from the historical point of view, also for the period. And it's a part of the British story, of the French story, of the Adriatic story, not only the Ottoman story, not only of the Albanian story. And this is very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

And indeed, we will have this item also on sale in our upcoming auction on the 1st of June, Albania. Yes. The treasure of the Eagles is the title of the collection. Yes. The double-head eagle is the symbol of Albania.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yes, the symbol, and also the meaning, because in Albania, Albania in Albanian is a is the country of the Eagles. Of the Eagles. And the Eagles are also very famous. The double-headed eagles is was also the symbol of the national hero. It was the first star fighting Scandalbag. As his symbol was the double-headed eagle, and the flag of the actual flag of Albania is with double-headed eagle that was representing the national hero and the first fightings for the independent s autonomy from the Ottoman Empire. Skanderbeg is is not very much known, but was really the strong the strongest defender from also the two civilisation because uh West and East, Muslims and Christian Christianity. So for example, uh there was a famous battle. Say he with only 15,000 people he fight against the Ottoman forces, military forces, it was more than 100,000-150,000 people and he would win because he had during the time the similar tactics of the Marines. Destroying and escaping. Yes, yes. And the Ottomans never won with against him. Despite the Ottoman Empire was very strong, and the Albanians the army, the Albanian army under Skanderberg was very thousands of people, but the strategy of the partisans, right? The small attacks here and there. So it's very fascinating. So about this. Albania is in exactly in the front of Italy. If the Ottomans during that time won against Skandabe immediately crossed the sea and invade all the south of Italy. South Absolutely, because during the time was Italy was uh okay, it was the different kingdoms and so on, but uh but was uh also very dangerous. In the south was the King of Kingdom of Naples that was under the Spanish, was the Papa States, was under Duke and so but this invasion was very dangerous and so so he saved this and the Ottomans went on the on the land arriving, reaching in the 17th century Vienna.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

So and another item maybe I think that there is an item in your collection during the French period of Dominion, they they took part of the land of Albania. It was the Ottoman uh possessions on one side, which was most of the country, and there was also another part, I think it's the Lyrian coast, exactly, which was occupied by the Napoleonic uh France. And and there is one letter, explain us this letter from sent searching for help from the French.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yes. Just just just uh a brief uh short uh so frame about uh the period. So na Napoleon uh uh in his development of the empire conquested it Italy, okay, and uh the Republic of Venice collapsed. All the territory that was under Venice pass in under France, French Empire. And this territory was also the Ariatis Sea. As you said correctly, there were two Albania. One Albania was under the Ottomans, the other Albania that is the actual Montenegrin coast bordering, was called Albania because there was a lot of Albania that were also escaping and so but was under firstly was under French, when French lost became under when Venetia lost became under France, when Napoleonic Finnish becomes under Austria. So this second Albania called Albania, that is this Montenegrin coast and Dubrovnik, was before called Venetian Albania, then French Albania, then Austrian Albania. So this second letter is during the Napoleonic period, and during that period, as I told you before, the French the best ally of France was the Albanian lords that was fighting to be against the Ottomans inside the Ottoman Empire to become independent and to strengthen their power. And this fighting the French knows this, and also the Pope and so also the Vatican, also the Papa States, and also the other great powers of the Austrian Empire, and tried to be ali to make an agreement with the French troops in order to fight better with because they were very, very strong soldiers. We will talk if we have time about the very famous soldiers of the Ottoman Empire that established Egypt, for example, was an Albanian fighters that become the first governor of Egypt. The modern Egypt was funded by an Albanian that's Met Ali Pasha, also Syria, and so also these other countries, because it was strong fighters. So, in this letter is very nice because Napoleon made an agreement with the Albanians to help them to fight against the Ottomans in Bosnia, that was another Balkan countries, and this two Pasha, uh two lords, uh Albanian lords in the in the Ottoman Albania that was writing together, and so was also the seal in this letter, was asking help because the brother that was fighting against the Ottoman troops was surrounded by the Ottoman troops and needs help about the French detachment that was in the Adriatic Kost to say oh please make help them to to be back home and so and also to give some military support to them, and so because we are dying for you for France, no? For the France interests. Of course, there was also their own interest, but uh it's very interesting also from the historical period. Because before this I was not aware that about the fightings of Albanians with the French in Bosnia, that connection the connections and so from those lords which were in the Ottoman Empire. And also, this is this is the the the most difficult also part of my research because they were writing in Arabs, no, in the in the Ottoman language. So I'm I'm not okay. I know many languages, but not the Ottoman ancient language. So I need help to with friends that are also uh Turkish, that knows the ancient Turkish language. So to translate the letters by the letter. When they they gave me the text, it was very I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Excited. And this shows how kaleidoscopic can be the kaleidoscopic the country of Albania because it has involvement of so many different administrations, countries, and this is what it makes it so fascinating. Now if you would choose an item for its rarity, I mean I I'm sure there must be several unique pieces in your collection, but what would it be one of those chosen gems for you? We we know that there is excuse me, there is a very important stamp. We can we can talk about it later, but in terms of postal history, for example.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Okay. It's a very difficult question because it's uh like uh okay, is the unicity that the uniqueness uh so that uh make uh the love and the passion of these items. So I honestly I'm as I told you before, I'm I'm not uh I'm not uh so interested in the possession, no? But I'm very interested in the knowledge. So for me, for example, the discovering of the history is my great passion. But also the discovering and the study of the postal history and the items for me is very important. And there are many of these, you know. The the the most important that will be I'm very honoured and pleased that Spink will expose the is the is the two piastre value uh that was uh which is yeah, the most the rarest item actually of Albania. The rarest uh items is really a gem. In my point of view, the problem in the past is because Albania is unknown countries, but uh for example, like there are the famous uh Mauritius uh stamps or other stamps, is uh the unique uniqueness and the unis um is really a unique item should be one of the most important in the world collection, not only in Albanian collection.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Because there are there are just two examples issued.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yes. Two officially issued. Two officially? Because also this yes, please. Also the story of this is very interesting, no? I made an article trying to explain the story how this postal system was established because it was a difficult period and so. Unfortunately, we have not a map here. But you have there were a lot of occupation during the when the independence of Albania was declared. The story that is very fascinating how it was declared independence.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

That's that's another chapter. They declared independence in 1912. But the period following that independence was very complicated. Very complicated. Because probably they realized it was they didn't control yet the whole country. And they saw it was a weak country. And they had all that kind of invasions: the Serbians, the Montenegrins the Montenegrins, the foreign powers, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:20

It was Yes, because the Ottoman Empire was collapsing. And so and Albania during the time was included in four Vilayets that was like counties. Yeah, the Vilayets had the counties in the Ottoman rules. The Albanian territory was included in four counties, four that was called Vilayets of the north of Kosovo, of Monastic that is actually Macedonia, and the Yanina that is actually in Greece appears. Macedonia, yeah. And was collapsing. When it was collapsing, it was the great powers that won the Albanian independence in the agreement, but was the Serbian that was taking all the territory from the north, the Montenegrin that was invading Albania, the Greeks that were coming, the Bulgarian and the Ottomans that were escaping, and there was the Albanians that said no, we want our territory, our independence. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Austria helped this Ismail Chemal, that was a former had a very important position in the Ottoman Empire but was Albanian origin. The Minister of Foreign Affairs gave him gave him a boat and he started from Trieste with a boat. He arrived in the south and he has to to come in in Flora to declare the independence with the agreement of Austria, Italy and so on the great powers. But he found the Greeks that was attacking as a blockade in Flora. He went back in duras. But he can stay only in the central Albania, but he can stay only two days because the Serbia was arriving and to konquest it. So he went by by land with horses in the middle of sludge in November, so four days for 80 kilometers and so he stayed. So, but the territory that he had was a small territory. And to issue the stamps, it's not a typography and so nothing was a disaster. So, what they did they found at the end the decision was they found the former Ottoman stamps within the postal offices, and they ordered simply a seal to overprint the stamps. So when the minister came there and said, okay, they counted the different values. And the two Piasta was only two left by the Ottomans in the office of Lohra. And the overprint. These two stamps. These two stamps, and the official gazette, when they published what are the first issues of Ottoman of uh independent Albania, that was the provisional government of Laura, officially was declared. Yeah, it was reported that only something. One is incomplete because he has one. One is incomplete was cutted by the minister. And he said my uncle didn't tell us why it was cutted, probably because it was or he cut it personally because he cut it the corner probably because it was a sample or a specimen. But he said it probably is a specimen in order that not as not to be reproduced and so and so and so, and the other is entire. But both are cancelled by the overprint of the double-headed eagle for the Galate. And they are cancelled by a seal, one in El Basan and one in. And this can be considered the most important item of the most important item because it's the unique entire.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Yeah, just to issue this really.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Yes. Yes, it's it's a gem, a war gem, not only Albanian gem. So it's a fantastic discovery. And also there are others and so that I saw that you have taken some of them here that are that I like very much. So despite that there so also still research has to be done about this issue. There are still different positions about this issue, but are unique, for example, as you Are you talking about the partisan stamps? The partisan stamps so that uh and also the the, for example, the Dibero occupation by the Albanians and so.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Yeah, it's it's very fascinating that it's the the history in that period, because it was a very short period when the Italians signed the Armistice in September 1943. Then the partisans controlled the territory for for a very short period.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

It was a very short period, only a few short period, and also maybe two months maximum yes. But there is a lot of discussion about this issue because uh the problem is that it's not official, but of course, the partisans were not official, was why the control of the clandestine forces, no? And always many times I have also, for example, my grandmother was a partisan against the fascists in Italy. In Italy. And uh and as a gift, I have a lot of communication that she had during this uh was were all unofficial. And of course they needed also to have a postal system to establish communication. Establish a postal system communication. And when they they they take in a territory, you know, they have the full control of the territory, they try to establish the postal system, also officially, no? Some of them. Some of them could be communication that was unofficial, simply writing a letter with the messages and so.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

And this was before the period of liberation in 1944, the only territory which was really controlled by the partisans to an extent of having a postal system or to have also a kind of a government, yeah. Yes, yes, controlled by them.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Yes. Two covers, you mean it's a few. Printed matter on the paper. But uh with the seal of uh Berat that the official seal of the postal office.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

That the stamps were overprinted with the start of printed with the stamp.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

And with the initials in which Yes that that means uh freedom for the people. Freedom for the people. Yes. And this is uh the the the the four symbols and it was overprinted with the stamps with the seals that they found in Berat. It was the seal that were used for the registration of the letters.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

So they they overprint the stamps with this star in red in the initials, and they they used the cancellation of Berat. Cancellation that they found from 1915 to cancel the stamps on the letters, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:11

For this, for example, of course, there are not official documentation. Some somebody argued about the this the stamps, but there are there are witnesses about this. There's a gentleman that was reported that was working there during the exact during the period that was also confirming that was some partisan to take the control of the postal office. He also mentioned also the stamps that were overprinted. This was interviewed also by Robert Ballauri, that was the man that has found this items. I have the honor that he left me this items. And my point of view is are part of the history. This is a really great rarity. It is also mentioned in different publications, official publication, international by many books, by books of John Phipps and the books of specialist books about.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

And yeah, so we see that you cover such a long period in history, but very active in certain periods, right? See, very active in certain periods. Because then when uh Albania gained independence, and apart from all that foreign occupations, then it was the moment for the first world war as well. The countries struggled again, they had again also European powers there, etc.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Yes, we we have we have uh I'm we have also to leave some surprise for for the people that are interested in so because we cannot tell all the issues. But there are many, many very interesting uh items uh that are also during also also before the independence after the independence, uh because after the independence point, then as I as I said also before, there was different occupation, invasion, that they established their own office, military office, then started this the First World War, then after the First World War also was many different changes, then we arrived in the Second World War. So it's so rich of also mixed rankings, mixed uh postal administration that were acting together. So as I told you before, also before the independence, for example, uh another items that we will see for the first time, it's also unique, is the services, the consular service of of Austrian Consular Service in Skodra that was opened in 1820. But there were mixed services despite so for this because they have the the consular service, as you said here. We have one item here indeed. Indeed. Okay, that is these are only only two existing pieces, but this is the only one that is also with the also the seal with the seal of Castellas 2. The story is the is this one. They established the consular post office in 1820, as reported by Mueller and the Austrian post office. They were using a Turkish service with the horses to transport this letter because you have no means no means to go. And so they have to transport this letter going outside the Ottoman Empire, entering in the Austrian in the Austrian Albania, as I said before, that it was Montenegrin Coast. And there were established some Lazarettos, disinfection points, because the most dangerous things during this period in Europe was the plug. The plug was always coming from the Ottomans, so from these things, no. And in order to accelerate the procedures, instead of opening the disinfection points at Lazareto, like in Venice in Trieste in the arrival uh places for this letter, they opened close to the border in Albania. This is also as it told you before, east and west. So they established immediately there the disinfection point and said we are protecting because this is a very dangerous border where the plug can carry. Yes, the spread. And so it was open in very, very small, very small uh uh disinfection point in Castellas.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

And this is the only one with uh covered with dark cover, so it's not very clear, but uh but we can we can see in the in the dark sports is the fumigation because of the fumes they use to eliminate those.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

But the gift that we we we gave to who will be the lucky person that will will take these items. So we have also the seals, original seals. Uh-huh. Yeah, we we have this item also for our auction on the first of June. Yes, but for example, uh in these items that is very interesting, you see the stamps of the consular, but then you see the tariff the the postmarks, yeah. The par the the tariff for disinfection, two croin uh yes, yeah. The cross that means is disinfected. The signs, because for the disinfection they were taken with uh with the iron and the letters and they put on on fire over the fire smoking, and you see clearly the pla the the place where it's taken by the iron and the place in the the the part of the letters where there is it and also this after this infection they applied this the seal uh works seal of Castellas Tua writing this has been disinfected on the day in 1943 and so things. And so this is a mixed franking mixed used Transp Turkish transport Austrian uh within the Ottoman Empire so and then taking the ships and so go to the final destination. But also in the Levant there are many many mixed used with the agreements uh using both post offices of Albania and foreign post offices to manage the same correspondence. Also during the before the First World War and also during the the the first world war were also a lot of mixed use of postal office of stamps of the different occupations so they were using for example in the nineteenth century stamps of in the same letter stamps of Turkish stamps with the post office Turkish post office seal then was going to the Austrian leven that was applying also their stamps for their the part of the their use of the of the transport with their seals and so are mixed rankings, mixed cancellation, mixed transport and so and so are very fascinating because again is involving not only but all the foreign powers, foreign countries and so and so of all occupations is everything fascinating and I see that you have invested also so much time for this research through these six volumes how such a busy person like you you are currently also a CEO of a company in Africa you are still involved with major institutions with ministers in Italy etc how do you find the time to do all this? I'm not uh I have a lot of I I have to confess something when I was uh um on the other side of the Atlantic and we were communicating sometimes you were even at 1.30 in the morning I remember several days still still active so you you have how how do you find the time I'm lucky man so because uh I love what I'm doing so I love my my work and I love also the this research and activities it's it's to be like a kids all the all the life no trying in trying to discover new things and so and this this is also a secret of happiness. At the beginning now I'm sleeping more but in the past I was not sleeping very much I was working 14-16 hours per day but working for me I was enjoying yeah the part the part of the working day related to this research was more the relaxing time. Relaxing time then you have also to consider that I was married very late so I was I was fully dedicated to work to my passions and after marriage of course I dedicated my time to to the family less time but also I'm I'm lucky also with with my family I have a wonderful family so all all females I have two daughters and one wife I always say to my wife I'm going to work to rest because working and dedicating my time I enjoying so staying the family is more I occupy more my time and so I have more to dedicate and so but I love to do it. So my attitude is really to be multitask also my my bo my work to to take into consideration many problems and so to the solution of many problems so I have one good things my point of view my behavior is to have the capacity to dedicate at the same time to follow multiple tasks tasks. In this case and for for me during the evening for example from 10 till two or three o'clock in the night dedicating to the to the research in the philatelic and the postalista is a good time and that they enjoy. I go to sleep well after this.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

And I think that the collectors are lucky to have this privilege yeah because it's something interesting sometimes it's even is it goes beyond the the wish of possessing an item it's just the discovery. That force which moves you to make that research you forget about the time if it was one two three hours you don't feel that you are just looking for the information you are looking for or trying to find out the key in that item.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Yes yes in fact you know you spinks also not know better than me and also you know better than me that many many times also the collector one jealous with the other competitors would like to take I'm not such kind. So I like very much to exchange the knowledge of the things and so I gave also to in the past I received and also I gave many presents also without also for for things that are that had value and so and so and because I like very much the people that are studying exchanging knowledge and so these things. This is why if I I'm a lucky person because I have more friends that than enemies is strong words because competitors that are jealous and so perhaps there are but I'm not such kind of And throughout through throughout over 25 no 35 years you have built that the best collection ever form of Albania in terms of postal history and stamps I think so I think so. Albania is a secret perhaps we will disk over some somebody that went to the archives in the world in the Otomark and so found some other secret things. That were mainly four big kollectors that were one is I told you before is Robert Balauri that was giving me the part of the collection after the independence the second one was Markus Gmeig that was a German collectors that also was collected in Albania German very good very nice that gave me part of this collection that was before the independence was very but also after the independence and the third the third also very good collectors they gave me was Kolgin especially for the third for the first years of the independence this nephew of the prink of the prince of the Merditas and the fourth was the nephew of the first minister of the Post and Communication of Albania who established the Albanian philately that was a Lefnosi and I have a good part but I've taken also was also Prenushi that was a famous Albanian philatelist saw in the in the beginning of 19th century that was also a trader, Philatelli trader that was established in Trieste my town he sold not the his collection to me but I bought to the the people that bought his collection part of his collection that was also very important so I was lucky for this but many many of the the the the other items I discovered by myself also in small shops when I was when I was working for the ABRD for example I was coming in London I was going small shops I see in Albanian item nobody was taking care but I saw immediately say Albania nobody was taking care of because during the time nobody knows where Albania is and also when I was in Brussels or in Paris and so I was also going to small shops to find and I found really some treasures unknown treasures I was lucky for this because I was the only one that was going. Indeed the treasure they have also the possibility because you have to take into consideration that I was facil uh for the Albanians now they are fantastic Albanian collectors also for for this period and also with a very good knowledge they have also very nice publication and very nice magazine that is the Collectionisti and so on. And they are also proud that I financed the establishment of this newspaper. So the first edition of this newspaper I I finance and made possible also with a contribution also I found the banks that gave the collection support support but I was lucky for this because during the time I was the only one. So I have two possibilities first to travel and the Albanians is not a possibility to travel around the world for my job and secondly the knowledge of the foreign languages the possibility to go also in the archives to study and so that's and to understand what was written in the ancient language that was difficult. It's still difficult for for for the Albanians no to go in the Istanbul archives they they have to know Turkish language but the ancient or when they are going to the archives of the Vaticans they have to know Italian language and read the ancient Italian language that are talking with Albanians so it's not easy no when you are foriness. Okay and to finish uh a last question maybe it's also related to the current times do you see parallels between political making decision in postal history and of course of course postal history is related to the administration is it's related to the public so to the public administration so in the the institutions are related to the political political decision and so for the evolution of political decision sometimes also we have the institution are represented also by philatelists and this is an advantage.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

And I think that you have also something representative about this for example the the consular mail or the mail from consul sent to their country because they were acting like kind of spies at the time providing information to the to the government in other European location or countries in western Western Europe.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Yes I made a research I made also publication for example that is interesting I think that also some items would be in the nice because I was also interested not only in the Albanian typical postal items no but also in the items relating to the history of the history of Albania. So items which mention Albania Albania but mention important information no and this I found for example my my uncle that was a Marquis so is Nobel Origins and so left me in very nice documents because it was from Naples and so from the regions for the exchange of letters between the consul of the King of Naples in Istanbul and during the period in which the consul during the time was giving information. Now we call spy but during the time we call consul okay because and during the time it was very interesting I made this this article that was funny because the the was telling the history of some important Albanians that was very important for the history of Europe because two of them as you told before one was Mehmet Ali Pasha that was the first governor of Egypt that was of Albanian origin and his son that was also from Albanian origin Ibrahim Pasha was the governor of Syria and they were agreeing together to attack and to take and to kill the the Sultan and to to take all the Ottoman Empire so to Albanian was the most dangerous for this for the Ottoman Empire and the Ottoman Empire make the agreements with the Russian that at the time was invading Besarabia that is actually Ukraine similar story of now was a big epidemic like now was the COVID was the big crisis energy energy crisis like now okay the world was very similar in in UK there was the oldest king king appointed like now so that is King Charles make the new record in terms of age as being pointed as king of UK also during that time was very a lot of similarities in Europe but in which Albania was playing a very important role also Russia was making the agreement in the in the Balkans with Serbia also to divide the territory and so and so and it was involving so this exchange of letter it was also very difficult to be read that very important was a letter that was different different letters. Yes was not crossing was not crossing Albania but was regarding Albania so was going transported by French couriers from Istanbul through the Balkans arriving in Semlin being disinfected and arriving in Vienna going back to Semlin which was part of Austria was disinfection very important in Serbia in Serbia was going to Vienna like all diplomatic courier from Vienna was all diplomatic courage distributed in this case was distributed to the king of Naples so was going again down crossing Italy arriving in Naples with all this information this was the the route was better than going to the ships because it was the pirates of Ulcin that was attacking the ships I think it's a fantastic way to finish the interview we started with the pirates we finished with the spies and yeah we thank you very much thanks a lot Giuseppe for your time for opening us the doors of the a little bit unknown history of or quite unknown history of Albania which is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Thank you everyone for for your attention thanks to you great pleasure great honor to be here thanks for us thank you very much Giuseppe thank you very much for your attention please like and subscribe and we would love to have your comments thank you see you next time