From Match-Worn Shirts to World Cup History | Inside Sports Memorabilia - Episode 21

From the earliest days of the FIFA World Cup to some of the most infamous moments in modern football history, sporting objects always leave something behind. 

In this episode, we step inside the world of sports memorabilia with special guest David Convery from Budds, exploring how moments in sport are transformed into collectable history.

What makes something “match-worn” so significant? Why do collectors place such value on the physical traces of the game? And how do certain objects come to define entire eras of sporting memory?

From early international tournaments to iconic World Cup moments that still resonate today, this conversation looks at the emotional and historical weight carried by the objects that survive the game.

Find out how sport becomes legacy, and how legacy becomes collectable🏆⚽

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Welcome to Spink Insider, the podcast where history is valued. My name's Tom Fell in the stamp department, and I'm here with David Converry from Buds here today. Welcome, David.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Thank you very much, Tom. Nice to see you. Thank you for inviting me along to your podcast.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Thank you very much. Yeah, nice to have you here. So tell us a bit about what it is you're interested in, what you've brought with you today, your background, what got you there. I'd love to know.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Sure. Well, I I like you come from an old established auction house. I was I started at Christie's in Glasgow in 1988, July 1988, and uh went along as a porter. And they're looking for a it was a two-month job, looking for summer cover, um just to sort of you know see them through the summer months. And uh my very first auction at Christie's was a golf auction, so we're taken in there, so uh obviously behind the block out and uh don't give anything out, or if you do make sure that it's checked back in again, you know the process of auctioneer. Um and uh you know from that point I never knew about auctions, I never came from a background of auctions when I joined Chrissy's just a part-time summer job, and then my sort of my interest was piqued. So, why is this golf ball worth £5,000 and that golf ball's worth £100? So I said asking the questions of why, and obviously finding out one was a feather filled golf ball. Now, feather filled golf balls, as we know, are pig skin and turn dite signed out, and there's horses here, there's all sorts in there, yeah, handmade, very expensive things, or you know, the gutty balls, which were later sort of thing. So and at that point the golf market was massive. You know, the Japanese and the Americans were going head to head, places were unbelievable. You know, in those days, afterwards, they'd take the golf auction to wherever the open was, so St. Andrews or Burkdale, or you know, they'd follow the open. And so Christie Sillaby's Bonham's as well at the time, they took the a tent there as well.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

So I think a good time to be in the business.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Do you know honestly? Oh, especially you know, those it's just a whole sort of time away watching the golf, doing an auction as a porter. It's a fantastic time and getting paid to watch the golf wasn't too bad. Um and so we'd established at that point Christie's had an established tennis auction, golf auction, uh cricket reserves part of their calendar, and traditional sports, you know, Badminton and summer sports and the country sports, etc. And in fact, in Glasgow was um the family of an ex-footballer came into valuation day and he brought in an FE Cup winner's medal, some international caps and Scotland shirts. He was a Scotland International player for Arsenal. And you know, we just couldn't value him because we didn't know that there was the market existed for these things.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

And um so you know, the the value came down, the jewelry came down and the the the medal on the scales. We can't value the scrap, you know. This is an FA Cup. So ultimately we went to the boss at the time, uh MD and said, Listen, can we uh we have a cricket golf, can we have a football sale? Not quite a Christie Sting football, you know, not really the sort of sport we're looking for. Not Razumatazic. You know, in a sense, you know, and not quite obviously the the the class that we're looking for. So ultimately, you know, we had the first football sale in Glasgow in 1989, made £50,000, but we get so much editorial, I mean masses and masses of it.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Is that that was the sort of the genesis of the market at that point? That's when it all started, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

So that was the first. I mean, things that were valuing then for 20, 30 pounds that were making hundreds and hundreds at the time, you know, back then. And you know, then we got to know in that sense, all these collectors started coming out, they would work and giving advice, which were fantastic, you know, the mentors back in the day. So a year later, say we'll throw some money at it, we'll do a bit more marketing, and ultimately, so the f for the first sale making 50 grand, the best one at Chrissy's was 3.4 million sort of thing. So that's a jump from there. And Chrissy's Glasgow closed as an auction house. I was shipped down to South Kent, about 10 wonderful years down in South Kent, and the the market just bloomed from there. So yeah. So that's the sort of story of, and then obviously I've been on from there to do my own auction house, uh, and then joined Buds a couple of years ago. Um and here I am head of sporting at Buds Auction.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

What's interesting for me is well, I have a similar story coming into um the world of auctions in that I literally started as a porter as well in a general sale down in Cornwall, just you know, hulking things around as you do. And I loved the people you met and the the realization that people were interested in really weird and wonderful things that you'd never think people would be interested in. Um and that that was the hook for me. And then I came to Spink and and and decided to get involved in in stamps, but also autographs, historical documents, that kind of thing, which are quite established markets and they have quite a for the most part, with some outliers, uh quite an established sort of client base. Um how did it work with sports memorabilia um collectors? Were they people you would expect to be collectors? Um, were they already collecting? Do they have the typical collector mindset in the same way a stamp collector might say, you know, I need numbers one to ten of this particular year or whatever. Does it work in the same way or is it yes, pretty much the same.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Um, you know, the so the collectors, I guess the sporting collectors, they'll be program collectors, autograph collectors, shirt collectors, um, cap collectors, metal collectors, reference book collectors, and like I'm guessing like the stamp guys and everybody else, they'll have a spreadsheet. So they want every home programme from that season. So they've got obviously they're missing one, so they're trolling those days not much internet business, but it was always sort of getting around your um catalogues, getting catalogues sent to them and trying to find and lots of swaps as well, you know, to ensure it happens in the stamp market as well. So same sort of thing. So we had a broad range of collectors, and they only sort of focused on one thing, you it be it sharps, meadows, caps, whatever they were collecting. So they wanted to fill in and then obviously with the advent of the first football auction in 89, and of course, then the other rooms, Christy, uh sorry um Borhams and Phillips at the time, they all sort of jumped on it as well. So more stuff came onto the market, so these guys were filling in their sort of the gaps quicker than normal, because obviously there's more stuff, people were saying stuff was actually worth a value. Because of course footballers didn't think of anything of the memorabilia. You know, the the shirts here in the table will be discussed later, I'm sure. But at the time, you know, the footballers have thought that these shirts could be worth tens of thousands of pounds. That probably never crossed their mind, sort of thing. So and of course, the footballers back in those days, you know, it wasn't about money. We weren't paid gazillion pounds a week to play football. You know, they get sort of sixteen pounds an extra quid for the winter and bring your own boots type thing. So, you know, so it goes back and th th this they were taken back after the game. Uh the kitmen didn't sort of staple them up back home and stuck in the the washing machine and put in the kit bag and you know, eventually brought out many years later, um having a sort of a grand value sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Yeah, interesting. So the do you think the collectors were already there when yeah, in 1989 you brought out your first football auction? They were already sort of naturally collecting as as people do analyzed it that there was then a market.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

There was there, just you know, they certainly were there because you know, the first sale we'd the room was uh you know buzzing with with these sort of you know the the collectors, and I said, you know, a firm majority came mentors for us. Obviously we didn't know the market that well, but they were saying, you know, this is a rare program because this is a rare medal because you know if you didn't do your internet, didn't do your research at that particular time, but you can always ring up, you know, I'm sure you get a couple of clients you can ring up and say, Listen, I've got this rare stamp. Yeah, sure. Can you give me an idea, give me a steer towards it? So yeah, plenty of those guys, and uh you know, they're still there today, some of them most sadly have have passed away, but but ultimately you know expanded my knowledge of the field and in terms of the valuation side as well. And uh, you know, but most things you know, you you put something up, you speculate what it's worth, but ultimately two guys want it, two bidders want it. You know, I remember um one of the first golf sales we had it was uh uh a rake iron. So it was it was banned by that journey quite quickly after it was invented in 1905, I think. Put it on 80 quid, 80 on 20. The classic estimate, you know, the auctioneer's estimate made 55,000. Now the vendors in the audience thinking, what's going on? But ultimately there was two collectors who didn't have it, knew it existed, you know, and came onto the market. And you know, it was the classic two buybids, you know, but which we love as an auctioneer. So, you know, Japanese wanted it, he'd a buybid, his client was in the audience, the American wanted buybid as well, and eventually £55,000 later. And the vendors thinking, Well, what's going on? What's that sort of thing?

SPEAKER_03 8:50

So that's the amazing thing, isn't it? We talk about markets, but sometimes they're as small as two people who just have this weird, wonderful interest and a pure desire to own a particular thing, and you can have amazing, exciting results on the day.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

I'm sure you'll and I think as an auctioneer, you know, we've seen many of those, and uh you know, it's ultimately it's people want it. They've got the money to pay for it, you know, they'll certainly do. I mean, one recently actually it was uh in '92, United, Man United were we were demolishing parts of the ground, and there was benches, yeah, the old-fashioned benches, and uh there was four seaters and two seaters, and we'd a two-seater come into auction. Nice thing, United, the biggest club in terms of collecting his bill at the moment, eight to twelve hundred quid, fifty grand later sort of thing. So it's two people wanted it for the man cave, and they went on and on. Of course, the thing is in those days, obviously, you know, we used serum as well as our own sort of uh online platform, but uh they were bidding online against each other, so even before the auction had s started, it was up to fifty forty thousand pounds at the time. So uh so it's amazing to see, and uh you know that sort of takes a bit of mystery away from that if you can pre-bid beforehand, but I guess obviously the vendors want to see the stuff going through it making.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

I think it's exciting for the bidder as well if they can engage lock horns before the the sale. Uh it's exciting for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Well, you know, the thing is, yeah, we know who's registered for the auction, you know your clients, and you know you know yeah, you thought you might be show of hand. And I'm sure that most people, the vent the buyers know who's bidding against them sort of thing. So and uh you know, they might go, my turn, they're gonna go the extra bid. It's uh auction fear. We love it, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

So the actual, you know, the the product, let's call it, the thing that people are collecting. I'm interested to know what people do with them. Um because I I know very well uh I get asked it all the time with with stamps, like, well, but you you know, you spent £10,000 on a stamp. What do you do with it? It's does it go on the wall or whatever? And of course, stamp collectors have a very um specific way of collecting. They'll mount up in albums and write up very fastidiously, and they will go on a shelf and they'll get them out and look at them and and enjoy them in that moment, but it's quite a personal experience. Um generally a collector will will get it out every weekend, look over his collection, think, Oh, I need to add this, I need to add that. And he loves what he has in the private privacy in his of his own home. Flip side of that is that people also exhibit stamp collections on a on a very large public scale. But still they're always presented on album pages. So it that's that's the way it's done. What do people do with this material?

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Well, uh the varies. I mean, the the majority of the collectors, you know, the shot collectors will obviously will do have them framed and put in obviously in their wall, or they may donate them to the local club. Um the programme collectors, uh I guess like stamp collectors, they get into sort of the the the specialist plastic sleeves, you dig into sort of your date order into the album, into that season. Um and you know, they'll they'll be bound sometimes, they'll bind up the the programmes as well, certainly the early the pre-war stuff, the second world war, obviously thinner paper, easier to bind. So uh and I d you know, I suppose like the private collectors, I mean, unless they I know some collectors just go into the garage and stay there, they've ticked off the spreadsheet that they've got what they wanted. It's been looked after, it's been preserved correctly, but is into the garage and they'll bring it out sporadically from time to time to have a look. Um so it's a real mixed bag, actually. It depends, I said you because we have obviously the the the the categories of collectors, you know, metal shirts, badges, etcetera, etc. So it depends how visual they want it to be and how what they show off as well.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

So some of the items you mentioned are quite big, like a you know, a bench. Yes. Um I guess you get some collectors who want to build uh you know, a like a man cave or a fun room in which to exhibit all these things, uh which must be a nice side to the to the hobby that you can if you want to exhibit and and show off, you can do.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

I think it's a sort of it's a new thing that the man cave certainly the last ten years this you know in in the home. And yeah, absolutely. So what's better than a nice sort of frame shirt, obviously very colourful, you know, especially if it's match worn or someone we know, Ronaldo, Messi, you know, Pelle, Maradona, for example. So you know, if you can get one of those that's with the proper provenance, etc., you know, then that's a sort of prior place. And meadows obviously are quite small, but obviously very precious. That's the sort of thing that everybody wants. Um and then of course posters are a great thing now. That's a new thing, posters, sporting posters. You know, it's a great um, you know, the underground did a fantastic poster display for window, and we talked about tennis earlier on, which are fantastic. I'd love to own one, but it's super super expensive. You know, I they come on the market, you know, one day. But uh, you know, having two children, you know, it's difficult these days to buy memorabilia as well.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

So yeah, yeah, yeah. You mentioned provenance briefly just then. Um that's something everyone always wants to know about any kind of collectible. How do you prove that it's the right thing? Uh is there provenance available? I mean, in stamps alone, I know you have to be so careful on on the minutiae of detail that could be forged or improved. Um provenance goes a long way if you can trace these things back to prestigious collections even as early as the early 1900s, and in autographs, it's it's even harder. I mean, we all know that especially with the recent film, I think what was it called? Um Can You Ever Forgive Me? The famous forger who literally put the thing over the um put a piece of paper over the TV and traced um autographs out. Um is it a similar minefield in in this world and and what can you do to to know that you've got the right things?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Completely. Yeah, especially now in the modern the modern market, yes. I mean you know, the amount of items that we see, you know, Messi must have played 5,000 matches, the amount of shots that he's matched for, and Pelly must have played a million matches, Maradona. So and a sense that like you so we start obviously the vendor's the most important part of the the equation here. You know, if it comes from a player fantastic, then obviously the problems is pretty much unbroken. He's obviously played the match, if he didn't exchange charts at the end of the game, then obviously he's taken it back and it's been his kit bag. So, you know, um that's come from the the direct source. So, you know, over the years my the two record charts. So we had in two in 1970 Pelly won the the World Cup the third time. So um 2002 I got a phone call from chap called Rosato, the Italian number eight from 1970. Your daughter was getting married, and the only thing he had was the Pelly's World Cup shirt sort of thing. So I thought, right, okay, so and uh and that makes sense. You played the game, obviously we'd footage at the end of the match where you see the number eight Italian player going into the scrum and coming out with a yellow shirt. So pretty much, you know, in a sense, photo matching that shirt to that game with that particular player. And um so you could go over to to London, we met him there, and of course it was it was that number ten um rope, the correct make, the correct design, uh etc etc, and uh made 147,000, so had a fantastic wedding for his daughter. But as it turns out, doing the research that you not many people know, but Brazil wore two different shirts that day, so they wore a fleta in the first half, okay, different manufacturer, and wrote the second half, yeah, different number style, different number set, um and ultimately you know we had uh Mario's a gal who was the manager of the team at that time, sold his collection to do us many years ago. He had the first half shirt, so it turns out so that made 55,000. So 55,000 for the first half, 147 for the second half, and he wasn't allowed to get the cup bare chested, so he had to wear another shirt. So we believe that the physio's got that shirt. So those days were so with those information we know about, so obviously these are things you can track back.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Um but you know, if it's not come from a a family or a player's family, then it's just you know, let's see, after nearly 40 years, you get an idea, material, numbers, labels, things you don't give out, and you know, readily just you keep it yourself, as especially as you'll know that. Yeah. Things that you look out for, perforation, like you obviously, things of that. Um and then just little nuances that you know of. And then these days, of course, with the internet, you can pretty much there's images of everything, so you can try. I mean, you hope for example the the the Shelton shirt there, you've got at your side, when the way the badge is placed on the the pinstripes, you can pretty much match it to the millimeter, you know, and the verticals and stuff. So that's a great help. Obviously, the England shirts here are very different, and as is the West Germany shirt. But I can tell at 100 feet that these are genuine shirts from that particular period, sort of thing. But the modern stuff, yeah. I mean, if the internet's awash with with the the fake stuff, and again, you know, we go down to the the greats Bernaldo, both of them, Messi, you know, David Beckham, for example, is a classic one as well. You know, David played for United, he played for PSG, Inter Milan, obviously. So, you know, matchworn, it's matchworn, it's matchworn. And you know, uh the players have preferences, long sleeve, short sleeve as well. So all these things you pick up on as you go through your experience. So uh but it's like you, it's a minefield, so you have to be you know spot on. If you're not you try to be as as close as you can. Because obviously I as I I want to say everything is matchworn, because that that's a magic phrase, you know, match worn, then people put confidence in you. But you know, we built a fantastic reputation of trying to sell the most you know bespoke items and of course genuine items as well. We get it wrong, of course we do, but we put we'll hold our hands up and we'll bring it back and you know make the the vendor whole again, there's no question that or the buyer, as I say. But very, very difficult, very hard, especially with the modern stuff, but uh we keep chipping away at it.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

What about condition? I mean, shirts, you were talking about game-worn shirts. Do people ever get funny about have they been washed or things like that? I mean, is it is it more covers it to have an unwashed garment? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

So a collector won't literally, you know, match worn, blood, sweat, and tears if possible. Um if they can get one with blood staining, all the better sort of thing. So look, it was up until in fact funny, so Teddy Butcher, the England captain, um, the famous game against Sweden where he was obviously wearing the headband, but the shirt was covered, red white shirt, covered in blood. At that point, you know, if he felt if it went no more, you know, got to change that. You can't, you know, that's not fun. But that shirt was sold at auction many years later. Um, so the sort of blood rule now you can't change it. That's why these days, of course, you'll have multiple shirts. You sometimes it'll be you know, shorts too short, too long. If it's ripped torn, it needs to be changed. So you go off to the side and bring on another shirt sort of thing for you. Where, you know, for example, these shirts here, there's only ever two manufactured for the final. Um, why don't you talk to us about these shirts? Well, like yeah, let me give me some so what we brought along. So this is you know, as a Scotsman talking about England won the World Cup, but yeah, you know, it's it's what we do. We'll not errand. No, no, at all. For the board. So these are two. So this is uh a match worn. So this is 1966 World Cup final, England v. West Jamie at Wembley in front of the Queen. She's wearing, of course, a wonderful sort of yellow outfit, sitting there watching football. England win the World Cup 4-2, Jeff Hurst scoring the hat trick, of course, that day. Um Bobby Moore number six lifting the World Cup. So this is this is so these are two different types of this is a match worn Laura Emmerich number nine swap. So at the end of the game, he swapped his shirt. Um so this is his match shirt from that day. So this worn in the final, and uh and next up, Martin Peters, so number sixteen, those are the squad numbers. So he was number sixteen for the final and for the tournament as well. Again at West Ham, he scored that afternoon, but this is his spare shirt, so not his match. So this is the this is the other one. I was gonna say it looks remarkably unworn, though. So these are the two signs of the coin. So two genuine shirts produced for the 66 final, but one match won and one against match issued or match spare example there. So that's those two. And again, you know, the badges you'll see, you obviously they're all sort of period correct, you know, the squares, the stitching, the number, the way the number stitching, the badges, the straight-dead chairs and England badges isn't it as well, sort of thing. So uh so these are those shirts, and then to you if I you are is the the hand of God shirt, so the infamous 1986. And of course, there's a photograph of that particular there. So that's that afternoon, yeah. And that's obviously Maradona and Pelly when Maradona scored the goal with his arm before scoring the wonder goal just a couple of minutes after. So that's the shirt actually Peter wore that afternoon in Mexico. Um so it has been laundered, I have to say, so you know it doesn't have the Mexico sweat on it. But uh but collectors, yes, if they can get it as unwashed, you know, worn with all the mud stains as possible, then this place, let's have that sort of thing. So and that's the way they do it. So yeah, and you know, funny enough, I was asked late years ago to do a programme to find the shirts of 66, you know, the you've got to have some players swap. Some didn't. And Bobby Charlton swapped his with the the gym counterpart to get back to Germany and through the bin. And uh so he said, What's it worth? You know, it's as many he's got probably a couple hundred grand, something. So he went chop white at the time. So we found we found nine of nine England shirts, we two we didn't find. Jackie Charlton's we couldn't locate, and Bobby Moore. So somewhere out there there's a number five, a number six red England shirt somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

So um so um so that every collecting area has these sort of fable items, doesn't it? Yeah, it should exist somewhere, but where is it? Indeed.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Well, I mean certainly it was certainly worn, but where are they now, sort of thing?

SPEAKER_03 22:39

That's always a these are really emotive items, of course, as well. I mean, if if you were, you know, I suppose going back to the 60s, unlikely to be present um or you could have been present still at the game, or maybe your family members have rich histories and memories of of some of these games or are close to some of the players. Do you ever find that the collectors are are you know particularly moved when they acquire some of these things?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Oh completely. Because I mean I'll never play football at the top level. I mean I I played football as a goalkeeper back in the day, but never of any any note of any level to get into you know a a a team. But and same nostalgia plays a big part in collecting these days, you know. These are especially you know the 66, you know, the World Cup. It's in it's in Wembley in front of Her Majesty the Queen, England won four to Hatrick, you know. So people, you know, there's a hundred thousand tickets issued, hundred thousand programmes. So today, obviously the anniversary is coming up sixty years of winning the World Cup. So at the moment, my inbox is in dated with I've got a ticket stub from the game and a program from the game. Sure. Suddenly not huge amounts of money now, so yeah. So but you know, people can afford to buy these, you know. There's 11 shirts for that. That's all there is, you know, 11 mat shirts, 11 spare shirts. Yeah, so you know, a mat shirt, well Jeff sold for £90,000 a couple of years ago again. That was a record price at the particular time. Um, you know, what's is Bobbies is out there, what's that worth a couple of million pounds now, sort of thing? So uh so you know they are sought after, they really are, you know, for that. But that's that's nostalgia side of the business. They'll never play a World Cup final, yeah. But if you own a part of it, you know, the ball or you know, a cap that was given at the time or the match shirt that maybe.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

I'm I'm a Sheffield Wednesday fan and I I'm not I'm not entirely convinced that if you gave me uh you know even just a signed Barry Bannon t-shirt, I wouldn't break down into tears. Because it means a lot to people, doesn't it? Yeah. Um and that for me, in what I do selling stamps and and and also autographs, uh the most compelling moment is when you you get the acquisition in front of of the person. It means a huge amount to them. For for whatever reason, it could be nostalgia. I mean, on on my side, it could be someone collects a British colony because their family member were were involved in the administration of the country or something. They might have even lived there when they were younger. And presenting them with the piece, the artifact from the time, is a it's a real moment for them. True. Um and I'm sure you get a similar thing.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

But I was just gonna say, yeah, I mean you must get the wish list, you know, your clients saying up to I'm after, I need this. You do you have anyone that can sort me out? Sort of things. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And to sort of find it, track it down, you know, it's your own sort of personal goal as well. And I'm sure you'll, you know, uh your little little sort of book of clients that you can sort of call upon from time to time, I'm sure, as well.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Yes, definitely, yeah. And people share their, you know, they probably call the same thing, wants lists uh with you all the time. Um, you know, this is what I have, this is what I need. Um but sometimes it's more sort of um qualitative than it is quantitative, uh, in that they're looking for something they can't quite put their finger on that is gonna put them in a particular place. Sure. So it's not it's not uh a particularly identified stamp, it might be an envelope that's addressed to an important person of the time or the area or from someone important, uh, but they're interested in in the whole sort of cultural milieu. Um I imagine it's a similar thing with this, that you might get a collector who's obsessed with the 66 World Cup final, or you know, maybe you're a particular pet player and you can present them with something they didn't really know even existed. And it's uh it's an exciting moment for them.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

There's lots of that, absolutely. You know, because you know, we only see the the top end either the shirts, but you know, there'll be as you say programmes, ticket stubs, there'll be the coupons for the tickets, there'll be posters presented at the time, all the supplements that were, you know, after winning the World Cup, you know, just silly things that small runs, small issues, um, but they're out there. And you know, I'm sure I don't know everything I've ever done for the 66 World Cup. When it appears in front of me, you think, Oh, what do you know that's something new and you know exactly who's I know who's to maybe looking for something like that sort of thing. So absolutely. So I can't go any further forward without asking about Sheffield Wednesday what your thoughts on it are. You know, I'd be full of a football fan, so uh what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 27:03

Delighted to have been bought. Yeah. Um that's a huge relief. Yes. It was uh if you followed it at all closely, um you'll know that the sub the club and the supporters have been royally messed over, to put it politely, um, over the summer and it's been a pretty torturous season, uh especially after the playoff uh the previous season. I don't know if you followed that. Yeah, no, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

A good friend of mine's uh is a blade sort of thing, so he's uh Oh right. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

So uh indeed, yes. Um Yeah, so it's been hard, but uh I think uh to paraphrase an old political movement, the only way is up.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

It's funny because obviously I'm a two si a two-team city as well, I'm a Glaswegian, so I you know I've got sort of my team, my city as well. But the thing is that can you imagine the goldish return though when it starts to happen? It'll happen again for Chef O'Wesley, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

I mean um you know you'll be there. From my part, um they've just changed the badge actually from what has been called I mean it's funny the the lexicon that's used because they call uh the badge we've just come from the retro badge, which was actually the sort of original badge. And now we're talking about going back to the old badge, which was the new badge in the sort of eighties. So we all get sort of muddled up on how to refer to these things, but it's got a really nice what we're probably now called like retro 80s feel to it. It's like a minimalist drawn owl with SWFC underneath it. And I, you know, symbolically I want that shirt because it's the first shirt under the new ownership and potentially you know the first shirt of a hopefully a bright new future. You've got a new client, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

You pass me your details. But that's the thing. So you know, that's that's the memory from that. So obviously the badge is changing. So I mean, if you go do the run, you know, go through back up to championship and then into the Premier League again, you know, that's the sort of the the story, you know, the glory of the cup coming back again. And of course the red and whites go the other way even better, sort of thing. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

I do actually own a a a piece of sort of Sheffield Wednesday memory that is not a shirt. I've got a few shirts, but um during the period over the summer where um obviously we were in a kind of deadlock with our previous owner, indeed Le Ponchen Siri, uh the club and the supporters trust were were encouraging the fans to um boycott games to not spend a penny in the ground and so on. Uh and to raise money, they also produced these black and gold scarves that everyone wore and waved around the head um that read black and gold until it's sold. Um and I've got one of those, I'm quite proud of it. There you go. Um I'll keep holding.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

That's that that's another sort of factor in collecting, you know, these little sort of things that change people want sort of you know, a bit of that action type thing, so you know and you know, things like you're back to Munich, you know, the the United team that sadly died in Munich the air disaster. So, you know, the things like even before they were at the reception and and you know at the mayor's and they were sending home postcards, things like that, you know, obviously not the stamps, but in terms of the actual signatures going back, I know that one of the the last things they actually signed as a team that evening made sort of ten or fifteen thousand pounds. So, you know, it's all to do with that part, that that moment in history that can never be repeated again. Sadly for a sad end for you know eight of the players that died at uh that you know in that disaster. But it's still a very collecting, big collecting market because of what happened there.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

So I think um what about forwards to the present day then? Obviously we've got a World Cup coming up in America, uh and I'm sure you know it's the same in stamps, there's so much produced now around uh I mean the the Royal Mail in this country produced huge amounts of comerative issues that in themselves aren't worth a huge amount of money, but there are the odd you know, error and variety here and there that might be worth some in the future, who knows? But for a collector in the modern day of of football memorabilia, what what is there out there? Is there stuff that you can be picking up now, stuff to be looking for?

SPEAKER_00 31:12

It's a question you're asked all the time, but I guess you know it's the the unusual things. I mean, there's obviously we've got Canada, we've got America, we've got Mexico. So there'll be posters produced for each of the sort of host venue cities.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

There'll be sort of various programmes or itineraries that they can start collecting those. Obviously, there'll be you know the big sponsors, you know, McDonald's, Coca-Cola, etc., will produce various sort of you know, the the mascots is always a good thing to get as well. Um so yeah, it's just it's the unusual thing, yeah. We say try and focus on that. Or, you know, if you're looking at the bigger picture, you know, who's gonna be the star of the World Cup this year? You know, use that name, who's that player out of the 48 clubs, the first time we have 48 teams playing who one, two, three, four, or five of these players are going to be superstars, you know, join the big clubs after the summer. So you can pinpoint those and maybe get a match shirt if you can, or you know, there'll be you know time to go there. So each club will have maybe see 40 shirts. There'll be sort of obviously the national colours, there'll be a swap, there'll be the the obviously the the the second charts, there'll be the OE shirts or the third charts. So if they can get a copy of that shirt, you know, it'll be amazing to have. If this person goes on to be superstar, you know, someone said to me years ago, chap called Wayne Rennie, number 18, played for Everton. Exactly, you'll do something later on. And they they uh they'd promptly you know they manage to sort of get some number 18 blue Everton charts running in the back. And you know, make a small fortune these days, you know, wanting to do what he did um with Man United as well. Same with someone called Beckham, you know, he did alright, you know, these guys. So you try to pinpoint uh you know, my advice to them is try and pinpoint who these superstars are going to be. And uh you know, if you go out to America or Mexico or Canada, just keep quirky things. There'll be things that each of the the cities will produce in small numbers as giveaway for fans, as a sort of freebies, so people go back with you know packs of stuff, press packs as well. So yeah, look out for that. And again, you know, just generally, you know, football in general or sport in general, just try and pick out the next superstar. Yeah, you know. I mean at the moment obviously, you know, the football market is by far the most sort of you know, in terms of the value, the biggest sort of money spinner in terms of auction you know, revenue for the year with certainly with buds. Um before it was golf, now it's certainly football, it's a worldwide sport. You know, we are seeing a huge increase in the Middle East market as well as the Farish market, of course. This year, obviously, with the American coming into it now as well. So uh you know, we are tailoring our sales towards that sort of early evening auction to coincide with American time zones, that type of thing as well. Um and you're hoping that they grow a whole new branch of of of the business over there. So uh you know America's this time, a couple of years' time of course it'll be the Middle East the host of the other one sort of thing. So uh so you're all taking advantage of those and trying to you know, the traditional memorabilia, I think we spoke about before, the the autographs, they sort of you know there's not a huge marketplace for that now. It tends to be you know, charts and the caps, the meadows, that's the thing that they're sort of focusing on now. Yeah, stuff that's certainly more visual and you know can be sort of you know hung in the man cave as we discussed before. So yeah, sure. Pretty interesting. Thank you. Yeah. And I was just before we talk about World Cup list, I'm just gonna show you I've got the front here, yes. Let's talk you through. So of course 1930 was the first ever World Cup, um, as we know, and uh on the front of me here we have uh uh winners, runners up, and a third place medal. So gold, silver and bronze it was then. Uh, Nike, she uh adorns the front of each of these medals. Obviously, the goddess of victory, and on the reverse, each obviously is inscribed with uh the player's name and obviously the tournament 1930. Uh the executives were given this wonderful enameled badge. That is the uh the poster for the 1930 World Cup. Each year, obviously, they do each four-year cycle. They'll of course do the World Cup poster, they'll be designed beautifully. There's the mascot, as you mentioned here. Um, so that's I I love that. It's one of the sort of one of my favourite things in the auction, this enameled badge and the poster itself. Yeah, very you know, very much that type. Uh, and then moving on, 1950, and I had another World Cup winner's medal and 54. So there's a sort of small look into uh Well, they are small, aren't they?

SPEAKER_03 35:29

They're notably quite small compared to today's thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

This is a pinnacle. I mean, you know, in terms in terms of of of medals, these this are the pinnacle. This is what every player wants to want to win the World Cup and receive a World Cup winners' medal, you know, 18 carat gold, you know, in a beautiful presented box. Um and you know, auction-wise, you know, you know, the highest value at the moment I think is 240,000 for a Pelly medal. We have a 58 med Pelly paid in the 50th final youngest chap ever to play in the final the World Cup. That medal's coming up for auction in a few weeks' time. Um so you know, hope to beat that that record price for that.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

Presumably medals in particular must come up through the family by descent, as opposed to the the shirts that are swapped. Presumably, medals are kept by the players and families. Absolutely. I know. Yeah, you wouldn't the provenance is easier.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

But those days, of course, only eleven struck for the players. I mean, yes, it was committee was given one later on, but ultimately in those days no subs. So if you know you can finish the main, how many men you finish the match with, but no subs until much later on. And of course, today there's given this thing 30 or medals struck each particular you know, for the backroom staff as well, for the manager. In those days, just a player's got a particular medal. Um and yes, they tend to be family things, and obviously these have been so many years ago and they come round again type thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

But that's a football player, that's a pinnacle. That's what you're after, the World Cup winners medal. You know, that's and there's not many players who have can see their World Cup winners.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

And is that something we know, you know, do we know where they they all are? Have they all come up to the market? No, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

No, no, no, they've only touched the scratch the surface. I mean I so I mean a few of the uh the the sort of more modern ones that come onto the market, you know, it's 1966, that sort of thing. So but no, you know, um they're talking back in the day, so say 1930. Yeah, the street there. I mean, to get a gold silver and bronze is uh is kind of sort of rare thing.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

Uh how many are known sort of available from the nineteen thirties?

SPEAKER_00 37:23

There's three are there, that's as much as I can tell you, sort of thing. So and uh and you know funny enough, the Americans, the USA were third, so they were given a bronze, so you know obviously they're open to represent this time around in in their home uh World Cup. So uh so yeah, it's uh that's what that's that's what everyone's after as a player, as a memorabilia special as well. That's that's that's the the pinnacle sort of thing, so a World Cup winners medal with Provenance, of course, the great thing, yeah, the great word that Provenance, the family, and just so yeah, no, it's uh it's been a pleasure. It's a real uh enjoy doing it, it's a real passion, and uh you're finding those hidden treasures, like you you you know what you're looking for, the few things out there they're still searching for, and ultimately hopefully they'll turn up one day and uh you know and get them under the block or find them a better home, sort of thing. So people put them on to you know, exhibit them or certainly uh in the public domain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Thanks so much for showing me. They're really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

I'm excited to show them to you, and uh it's uh they'll do very well for us in the upcoming months. Mm-hmm. And j just I mean not for recording, but I seen some amazing Olympic stamp collections. Yeah, I mean, are they valuable?

SPEAKER_03 38:30

Yeah, they can be, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

You know, I seen I seen a one in Milan many years ago. Yeah, it looked unbelievably amazing. I thought, I wonder how value this it actually is.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

There are some really beautiful designs, um, but they're not the most valuable thing because there aren't many rarities basically. All this thing is driven by rarity. Yeah, yeah. Um and yeah, the first commemorative Olympic stamps probably in like the 1920s, 30s. And at that point the stamps were you know produced en masse.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Um and World Cup stamps, I mean I know the 66 did a did a version of them. I mean, are they any sort of value in those or I mean I don't do much the bit stamps? I mean I've seen I've seen plenty of such strips of them, but uh yeah, I don't sort of put much mind in them in terms of value.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

There isn't really no. I mean uh if you imagine 1966, England won't win the World Cup and the raw mail go into overdrive. Let's just produce as many stamps as we can and we'll sell them to every schoolboy and their dad in the country. And they did. Um and I I won't mention the name of my colleague, but he uh he was a stamp collector himself and um worked in stamps for many years. And when he you know, when he was younger, um he went out and bought a whole sheet of the 66 winners stamps, thinking they'd be worth hortune in in the future, and of course they're not because they were produced in their masses.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

No, yeah, yes, that's interesting. Yeah, I see lots of first day covers as well, you know, signed on the day of the final and things like that. Yeah, I mean they can be signed. I mean, obviously they were signed by the team, that makes a difference. But uh you know, just remember seeing that collection in Milan, I think it was amazing, they looked amazing, but what you know, I think you wanted big numbers for it. I thought I don't really see it sort of thing. So yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Yeah, I mean they're beautiful, but yeah, I mean most stunning to look at, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

But you know, sometimes it doesn't mean they're valuable sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

So yeah, so uh uh we're delighted to announce that uh we're gonna be having an auction together actually in November of this year. Yeah, indeed, yes. Um just after the World Cup. Presumably when when's the last um No, so July.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

July the nineteenth in the World Cup final.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

Um the nineteenth, I'm sure, yeah. And uh riding the coattails of the the World Cup in any case. Um so what can we look forward to in that?

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Well, you know what just all new for me, it's a collaboration. Obviously, you know, I knew I've known Spinks for a long time. Yeah. My Christie's days, obviously, you were based over at King Street, um there next to Christie's at the time. So uh so yeah, no, I uh you know, I think it's all happening. We're going for a sale late November. Yeah, we're gonna go for as much as we can. The high-end items also, uh, cricket, tennis, boxing, rugby. Of course, rugby at that time was the autumn test. So obviously focused on those as a sort of theme for the auction and fishing memorabilia as well, you know, but putting into the the Sphinx looking at obviously traditional auction house fishing's a big thing, fly fishing, fly reels, fly rods. So yeah, no, I I mean certainly we're all excited here at Buds to partner with Spinx for our maiden auction in uh in November. So yeah, yeah, it's exciting for us.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

It's always nice to bring new collectibles to our clients, and I think there's a lot of really natural crossover here uh in that you know we've got traditional collector base who like to, you know, really get granular with stuff and collect every program or whatever it is, or uh they want you were talking earlier about um the shirt worn in the first half, short shirt worn in the second half, uh the reserve shirt. So many facets to this that you can collect and and aim for completion.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

I think that's gonna be really appealing to a lot of our I'm just wondering if we can turn your stamp guys into F1 fiends, I think, as well. F1 European is that the natural natural progression.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

For stamp collector, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Yeah, it might be a bit far case, but still should be interesting. No, it's you know, we're all really looking forward to uh uh buds and uh you know it can't come quick enough for us and uh looking forward to the I mean obviously it'd be announced bigger in terms of what we're doing. I think the seal's gonna be here as well, I think here in your rooms here's a temptom row, so I'm looking at exciting and uh yeah, no, the sort of digging into the black book to see who we can uh bring along and see what we can tap into for the auction. So on. Yeah. And I'm guessing obviously we'll probably have similar clients who just collect different things.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

So uh so we'll probably it's it's a similar mindset basically, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Clect as a collector, absolutely. So uh yeah, you know, we can take it from there. But uh nope, looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Yeah, us too. Thank you so much for listening and watching wherever you get your podcasts. It's uh always a pleasure to bring these stories to you. Be sure to follow, like and subscribe and do comment as well. We like to read your comments and where can we learn more about buds?

SPEAKER_00 43:02

And same as the same as you on our socials, Instagram, Facebook, of course, www.budge.com. All the information is online. And uh look forward to and listen out for the announcement of our joint joint adventure.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

Yeah, great stuff, be really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

Thanks.