Make it Make SENDs #6: From SEND Crisis to System Reform: Lorraine Petersen OBE on What Must Change

Keywords

education, SEND, inclusion, teacher burnout, mental health, school leadership, education reform, SEND crisis, education crisis, teacher wellbeing, child mental health, safeguarding, policy, school improvement, inclusive practice

Summary

In this episode of Make it Make SENDs, I sit down with Lorraine Petersen OBE — former CEO of nasen, headteacher, and one of the most respected voices in SEND and inclusive education.

We explore the current state of education and ask the big question: are we facing a SEND crisis… or an education system that isn’t built to support everyone?

Lorraine shares her journey through education, offering deep insight into the pressures schools are facing today — from rising SEND demand and stretched resources to teacher burnout and the growing mental health needs of both staff and students.

This conversation goes beyond the headlines, unpacking what’s really happening in schools right now, and more importantly, what needs to change. Lorraine speaks with clarity and honesty about how we can build a system that is more inclusive, humane, and sustainable — for both young people and the adults supporting them.

If you’re a teacher, leader, SENDCO or parent trying to navigate the complexity of modern education, this episode will leave you thinking differently about what’s possible.

Key Takeaways

•  “We don’t just have a SEND crisis — we have a system that isn’t designed for everyone.” 
•  “You cannot separate inclusion from the wellbeing of teachers.” 
•  “If we want better outcomes for children, we must first support the adults in the system.” 

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Because education doesn’t end at the classroom door — and neither does the conversation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Hello and welcome back to the Make It Make Sense podcast with me, Dan. Today I am joined by Lorraine Peterson, someone who has spent years supporting children and young people with S End and their families. Now I'm not trying to make Lorraine sound old, however, we do we do talk. Sorry if I've done that, Lorraine. I do apologise. Maybe I'm just maybe digging a beat there. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

That's all right. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Are you okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I'm very well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, looking forward to it. Yeah, it's lovely to see your face after all this uh back and forth over email. Yeah, uh, so thanks, thanks for being here. I just want to sort of just put this into context what it is. Uh I'm a music teacher in a secondary school in the north of England, and I have two lovely children, one of which is autistic, and it's is this is a bit of a journey for me to improve uh as a dad, um as a sen parent and an educator, and then hopefully that experience, that journey of me doing that will help other people who are perhaps either teachers or artistic parents of artistic artistic children or or S End children or whatever that might be. And and obviously your expertise is very valued and your opinion is very valued. So, on that, can you start by sort of taking us back to the beginning? What first drew you into education and tell us a little bit about your journey, because it's uh I don't want to say checkered, because that means bad, doesn't it? It's very lengthy. I don't know why. It's lengthy, it's very lengthy, yes. It's not checkered past, it's a lengthy one, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Okay, so I I wanted to be a teacher probably from about the age of five when I used to play schools with my sister, and she was always the pupil, and I was always the teacher. Um, so it it was there from the from the very beginning, really. Um so I went into back in those days college and did a teaching certificate. Um, so didn't get my degree to start off with, um, and started teaching at the back end of the 1970s, which is a long, long time ago now. Um, and I then um went on and and got my B ed um in service in at Birmingham University while I was teaching. Um, and I did, I was uh my first sort of post was I suppose a literacy co- English coordinator, it was in those days. But very quickly I realized that my passion was for supporting those youngsters who were had got additional needs. To be fair, back in those days we didn't have labels. I can think about children who were probably would be um, you know, dyscalculic now or autistic now, but actually we didn't have a label, we just worked with them and and did what we could. So I did 25 years in teaching. I was a headteacher in two schools for the last 10 years of my educational life and all the time working actually in schools in the West Midlands, in fairly deprived areas, with lots of youngsters that just needed lots of support and help. And to be fair, one of the great things about teaching back then was there was no offsteads, there was no national curriculum, and yes, there were bad things about that, but actually you had a lot more freedom to be able to do what you needed to do to support those youngsters. Anyway, at the end of 25 years, I um went to work for Nathan. I'd been a trustee of Nathan, the National Association for Special Educational Needs, for a number of years, and I uh applied and was successful in becoming their first chief executive. So, up until the time when I got there, Nathan had been run literally by people who were working. There was two or three office admin people, but actually the whole organization was being run mainly by head teachers. Um, and it was it was at that point that you know, sort of when we Ofsted was coming on board, we got national curriculum, and and life was getting a bit tougher in schools. Um, and so the organization decided to uh appoint a chief exec. And I I just thought, you know, this is quite a nice career move for me. I'd had two headships, I was in, I mean, I was in primary education, so um, you know, and I'd I'd I'd progressed very quickly really. But um, so that this seemed to be the next stage of of my career. So I went and worked for Nason for 10 years, and during that time I was very, very lucky in that it was at the point where um well it started to sort of at the back end of a Labour government when we had national strategies and lots of things coming out education-wise, and then um in uh 2010, I think it was, yeah, we got the coalition government, so the Conservative Lim Debs Coalition. And to be fair, we were pretty sure SEN was not going to be on an agenda. It had been high on an agenda for many, many years, and then we got um the 2011 Green Paper. Um, and so I was very heavily involved at that time with the DFE when that green paper uh was out through the consultation of that and then through the um development of the Children and Families Act. Um, prior to that, I'd also been very heavily involved with QCA in terms of the development of P levels, which have now gone, but that the sort of levels for children with special needs, and I'd also been part of what was then called the TDA, the training and development um organisation, um, looking at Senko, role of Senko, and the Senko regulations and the setting up actually of the Senko Award. So, you know, I feel I I am very privileged to have been able to do all of that, and I did I worked both nationally and internationally, which was fantastic. But then um 2011, 12, I can't remember when, but um, I my my husband was taking early retirement, and I just thought now's the time to, you know, maybe set up a consultancy. Um, my husband was an accountant, so he was going to be able to do the business side of things. And so, you know, for the last 10, 11 years, that's what we've been doing, running um an educational consultancy and working, you know, with schools, with local authorities, with mats, with individual Sencos, doing all things to do with send and um uh safeguarding and mental more recently mental health and well-being. So very varied, really love what I do. And although way past retirement age, I I just you know, I I don't work full-time now, but I do love doing what I do, and I'm passionate about supporting, you know, anybody that's working with these kids because it's it's hard. And whether you're a parent um or whether you're a teacher or whether you're a supports member of staff, you know, it's tough. So I think that's probably me in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Just just on because obviously I've done a bit of research, so I know a lot I know a little bit about you, Lorraine, but just some of the things that you've sought on there, sorry, some of the sort of things that you've talked about there just just raised a few things that I just wanted to sort of ask you about. So the first one is like when you mentioned the no labels thing. So back in the 70s, 80s, do you feel that that's is that it was it better then? Was it is there anything that was worse then? Is it better now now we've got more legislation? And we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute, but what did I think?

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Yeah, I think Yeah, I think it's better now because there is legislation that sits around, you know, get getting young people what they need. Um I think that that we didn't have labels and that that wasn't probably good enough. Autism was just starting to sort of come in, dyslexia we we sort of had, but it was much more difficult to get a diagnosis. Um and and to be fair, parents knew very little about these things. There wasn't the internet, you know. I was I was teaching in the days when it was chalk and blackboards, you know. As I in fact, as I left my my final headship, we just put projectors in all the classrooms. So, you know, a lot of my teaching career was with technology, really. So people weren't as aware, and now I think everybody is much more aware. I think we are much better identifying, we know a lot more. I think the downside is we might know too much, and so therefore, you know, there there is that if I'm not sure I'll I'll I'll go on Google, I'll go on whatever, and sometimes you don't always get, you know, the right answer or or the appropriate answer, let's say.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

So there's a lot of self-diagnosis, isn't there, I think. And and I know Yes. But you're right, but then I think I've spoken to me, quite a few sent calls on on the podcast, and they're sort of I think it was the um I spoke to the chair of the speech and language um National Speech and Language Authority.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah, the Royal College.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

It might have been, yeah. Um she and she was sort of saying that we we uh there needs to be more rigour within how uh people are uh discussing and sharing good practice because it's it's she she was sort of saying that it there's there's not enough re not not enough research, but not enough research within the classroom if that makes sense. It should be a designated professional, whether it be with children with autism or speech and language needs or whatever that might be. There should be better training and not just like you said, all this information about self-diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Yeah, and I think that the trouble is, Dan, that um what happens is you know, as a parent, you want the very best for your child, and you will go down whatever route that is to get whatever it is you feel, and that might be a label, it might be a diet, whatever it is, or getting an education, health and care plan. But actually, in the classroom, it's not about that piece of paper or that diagnosis or that label, it's about what does that youngster need to be able to access education, and that's what's missing. I think we've got, you know, we've got a lot more children now that have got that, whether it's autism, ADHD, dyslexia, whatever it is, but that doesn't change what happens in the classroom if the teacher and the teeth the sports staff have not been trained to meet that youngster's needs. And and I'm sure, as you know, you know, if you've got one child with autism, you've got one child with autism. You could have six children with autism, and they're all very different, and they all need something different. So it's that bit that's you know, the the diagnosis is great, but actually what's missing is the really good training for the staff in school to be able to real sort of understand what is it that that particular youngster needs and what am I going to do to adapt my teaching to make that happen?

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yeah, absolutely. Um I think sort of so obviously you've you've been a you've been a teacher, head teacher, CEO of NASA. Now, obviously, like you said, you're running your own consultancy. How's that sort of journey then shaped the way that you think about education today? Now I know obviously you said there's been a lot of changes, but where we're at now, I feel like we're at a bit of a precipice, if that makes sense. We're still waiting on this white paper, there's newest government. But I I was expecting big things with regards to education, but it feels like the sort of same old, same old, especially after yesterday's budget, where it was not there wasn't as much in there. Just the fact that nothing at all, really. Yeah, it was SEM provision is going to be centrally centrally funded, which in effect could affect uh funding for per pupil. So I just want to know sort of what how's that how's what your journey shape the way that you think about education?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yeah. I mean, I I think my biggest issue, I suppose, if that's the right right word, is that I started teaching at the back end of the 1970s in what I call the 20th century education system with 20th century children and young people. We've now got we've still got what I believe is a 20th century education system working with 21st century children and young people and the technology that goes alongside that, and yet we still expect every child to sit in front of a teacher every day, and that's how they're attending. Um, you know, during COVID, we know there were youngsters who were, you know, did really, really well at home because that was far better for them than having to come into a school. But we've gone back to, you know, 100% attendance, and it attendance is about still very much about exams and you know getting getting to age expected. And and that's what it was like even when I went to school, and and we're not the system isn't changing to meet the needs of some of our youngsters. And we've just had the outcome of the curriculum assessment review, which I had hoped was going to have a bit more joyfulness in it about how are we going to adapt our teaching for some of our youngsters, and actually it hasn't, you know, with the things that the government have said they're gonna do, it's not gonna make any difference. And the big one for me is, and yeah, if you're in a secondary school, it's the accountability measures of eight GCSEs, and yet we know there are some youngsters that maybe could do six really well, but will fail eight because they just can't do that, or they could do really well in you know a lot more um uh practical or creative or vocational subjects, but they've got to do maths, yeah, double maths, double English, triple science, and and what's left is like very limited for some of these young people. And and that that's the bit that does upset me now is that our education system has not kept up with the needs of our youngsters.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Absolutely. No, I I totally agree, and and like it seems that everything it's it's built on fear, I think. There's just no there's no as no one's willing to go, let's just rip this up and start again. Or let's really, really think about the the key stakeholders that are that are coming to school every day. Let's ask them what they think. What what is it that you would do? And I think you're right, I'm a I'm a music teacher, and um we do we do uh like a tech award, so it's vocational music, and I'm often sort of that residual mark the grades that I get at the end are always brilliant because I get a lot of the kids, like you said, that that aren't very good at maths or English, but they'll do outstanding in my subject because that's what they can do, and like I said, there's no sort of specialised or there's no way of going down a route of things that you enjoy doing, because like you said, everyone's forced down this avenue.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Yeah, and they'll end up going hopefully going into music and doing DJing or you know, stuff on TikTok or whatever it might be, but school is not giving them the opportunity to do that. You know, if you ask those sort of kids, they want to be vloggers, bloggers, you know, but where's that on the curriculum? No, you know, it's it's it's not there. And I think if we could teach English and maths through some of those things for those youngsters that need it, they would actually understand that there's the certain aspects of maths and English they've got to know.

unknown 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

But when, you know, when it sits out there and it's about Shakespeare and you know, whatever, it has no meaning whatsoever to those youngsters whose brains are wired differently in terms of what they, you know, what their interests are. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Um from sort of your perspective then, what are I mean, I know you talked about this the state of of education and the way that it's built, but what are the what are the biggest national issues that you think because you've been you've done it all pretty much, you've done all the jobs. So so you've seen all of the you've seen the the changes, you've done all the different jobs. So like sort of what are the what are the biggest national education issues that you can see right?

SPEAKER_00 18:30

I I think that the well the first one is that the education system has not updated itself for modern youngsters, shall I say? I think that we're not equipping our teachers to meet the demands of the complexity of need we're now seeing in schools. Um we're seeing a lot more sort of you know neurodiverse youngsters who, you know, they they have a multiple diagnosis of autism and ADHD, or you know, the that overlappingness. And I think we've we've we've got some really old-fashioned terminology that now does not fit. We have the four broad areas of need, which actually what do they really mean? Um and and so for I mean, I think recruitment and retention of teachers is is a huge issue, but then training of teachers I think is is massive. And then the other the other bit for me that I think has changed absolutely significantly and and has got to be pulled back is that schools are now expected not just to be education but they're also health and social care. And so teachers and school leaders spend an awful lot of time dealing with social issues, things that come in from outside, or deal, you know, you're having to deal with medical needs of students because there isn't you haven't got a school nurse, or there's nobody who's, you know, and and what then upsets me is that is the education budget is actually being used to top up health and social care. Yeah, and I see that so much in special schools, especially because the needs of some of those youngsters around health and social care is huge, but all that's being provided out of their education budget, and I think that you know, we I I understand that health and social care are in crisis as well, but I think if schools were just left to be education and you just could get on with educating, I think that would make a massive difference.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

No, I I agree. I've I've once upon a time I was ahead of year, and I I just remember that was sort of I think I I've changed roles three or four years ago, I think. And even then it was just the amount like even just doing an uh an early help or just trying to get any sort of whether it be cams or anything like that, any sort of extra support, it would just get always battered back to school, and it's it's so difficult, especially. I mean, we have quite a rigorous pastoral system, but even that's sort of that's that's that's dwindling because they're just not able to replace staff that leave. It's just it's like you said, it's dying on its feet. Um so like look thinking about sort of the headlines, like uh especially recently, it's it's all about it's attendance, and and in in briefings at school, it's always is we need to drive attendance. What are you doing about attendance?

SPEAKER_01 21:28

What what what what do you want us to do? Grab him out of bed and bring him in.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

So it's like it's attendance dropping, behaviour worsening, school leaders sort of burning out. What's what's what do you think what do you think that is, what's really happening underneath these headlines? Because it's all leaked.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Absolutely, and I think that there's and this isn't a blame of parents, so don't don't take that as that. But I don't I think parents I think parents have lost trust in the education system. I think they felt they were let down during COVID. That wasn't our fault, I know, but you know, the government let us down, I suppose. I think that they they don't they don't think that mainstream schools are able to meet need. And so they want to go for um specialist school, or that the the election to home educate is now getting much more, much bigger. Um and I I I think again parents have lost that trust in in education, and um, you know, they are not supporting schools, if you like, with some of the basic stuff. And we've got children who are coming into school and reception, you know, they're not toilet trained, they haven't, they haven't learned to speak because they've been on a device since they could hold the phone in their hands. Um, and and I just think it's it's you know, there's a whole big environmental thing, I suppose, which seems to have escalated since COVID. Um and I I think the attendance bit, I'm not sure what the government thinks schools can do any more of, because I know schools are working flat out, you know. We've we've now got in most schools, you've got an attendance officer or you know, a family liaison officer who is out there on the doorsteps. But as you say, you can't go and drag them in. Um, you know, and and I think you I mean the other bit is that the issues around mental health and anxiety and you know not wanting to come into school because it's too big, it's too noisy, it's too loud, it's you know, all of those things. So I think there's a whole raft of things that have you know go into it, but I really do believe that schools are doing everything they possibly can in terms of attendance.

unknown 23:52

I I totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Um With without having without having to ask you to fix the whole problem, use it on your with your wise head. What what what what is it is there anything that you see good practice is because I know obviously you're a you're a consultant, you you're in you're in and out of schools, all around all over the place. So is there any good practice that you've seen? How what what is it that we could do to fix or to help fix?

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Well, I th I I mean one of the things that I re I do strongly believe, and I know again there's this there is evidence and it doesn't always prove this, but I just think our schools are just too big and too busy now. And and you know, we could do with smaller class sizes, we need uh a bit primary school it's not so bad because the the youngsters are in one classroom for the majority of the time. But I think in secondary school, you know, you you don't have that same opportunity to get to know the pupils to really understand them. You know, in a lot of schools they might see you once a fortnight for a 40-50 minute lesson, and you've got I don't know how many kids you know to see, and everything is about getting through the curriculum, you know, it's it's the third week into this this term, and we've we still haven't got to fractions, or we still and and you know it's it's just really the you don't have chance as a teacher, I don't believe, to just be and get to know the children and the young people that you're working with. You're on a you're on a treadmill to get through a curriculum, to get them through the assessments, to get the grades that you need. They're on that pathway to GCSE, or you know, in primary school, they're on the pathway to get them to secondary school. Um so I you know I would want to see a change in in that, which is why, you know, I I it does upset me that this curriculum isn't going to really change that much. Um, because I think it's too big and it's too overloaded. From a good practice point of view, and and this is one of the things that the government are you know sort of um saying should be happening, is that in mainstream schools being more inclusive, which I I think is fantastic, I think the new Ofsted framework with inclusion as part of that is gonna be hopefully a bonus. Um, because I think that will then get those schools that are just saying we can't meet need and and you know they get brilliant results, but actually they haven't got that wide breadth of pupils. So I think that's that's gonna help. And I think we've got to look at you know, how can we set up these resource provisions or SEN bases or hubs or whatever we call them to be able to support those youngsters that can't have their needs met in the mainstream classroom, who need maybe a quieter environment or a um you know a different place to go. The other thing that I do really believe, and this is I have seen it work really, really well, although some schools have have made it work and they've pulled back, is that I think year seven should be a primary model. So I think that pupils, as they when they transition to secondary school in that first year, while they're getting to know staff, they're getting to know the building, should have a primary model for at least the the core subjects, and then maybe go to P or go to music to a specialist. But I think I personally think, especially for the youngsters with SEM, that would be uh that would help so much more at transition because that is a still a huge problem, I think. It's so different going from primary to secondary.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Yeah, I would agree. We we do we to the our year sevens now, the they're sort of they they don't stay in the same classroom, but they stay pretty much in the form group or to all the different lessons up until Christmas and then they'll then they do get assetted um and put into bands. But then we also have like a nurture group who will stay together all the way through year seven. So it's sort of yeah, it does sort of work, but it's it's like you said, I mean, just for the context, my my school's was built in the early 80s for 700 students, and we've currently got 920 of them. Yeah. So like the the the the corridors are so it's just yeah so thin and there's so many kids in there, it's it's it's ridiculous. And we're having to expand from next year. Yep. So we're having to obviously hopefully that'll make it a little bit easier because we're building on top, but like I said, there's just the class sizes are huge, it's it's mad. But just quite on um so I don't know, just with regards to sort of the the white paper and and like you talked about S C and D, children with additional needs. So, what what do you think about because obviously I all I hear at the minute is send crisis, send crisis, where it actually it's an education crisis. So on that one, I want to know your thoughts on that. And then the second thing I wanted to ask you really was obviously you're working close with schools all over the country. What sort of patterns are you seeing around you with regards to demand for S C and D support? Anything that you want to add on EHC plans and sort of the pressure on mainstream teachers because I know obviously you mentioned about inclusion, but it needs to be done properly that because that again, like I said, we're on a bit of a precipice. There's an opportunity here to go, right? Okay, let's really make schools inclusive and let's do it properly, or are we just gonna go down the bottom of the tick box?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yeah, I yeah, and I I agree with you. I think it is an education crisis, not a send crisis. I think there's that it it goes much deeper than that. I think the school's white paper, in terms of the schools bit, um I really don't know what's gonna come out of that bit. I mean, there'll be changes to curriculum because that's come from the curriculum assessment review. I mean, this the send reforms, um, we we were all well, we were hoping that we'd have had them by now and we would be in consultation process. So um, whatever comes out of it, there will have to be a consultation, and obviously it'll take time to get through if legislation's got to change, then that will take time as well. But I think that it's it's really difficult because unless we we we've got to put the the foundations in first, which we've which is about training. So we've got to train our teachers coming in, so through initial teacher education, our ECTs, um they you know that they have changed the ITT program, put more send in there, but uh ECTs are telling me it's not enough. You know, we get into a classroom and we've got all these kids and we haven't got a clue what to do with them. Um, and it's all very well sort of teaching how to adapt to lesson, but actually it's much, much more than that in in in terms of you know what we need to do. Um, I think there's a personally, I think there's a big piece of work about school leaders having more training about SEND and inclusion because an awful lot of leaders still leave everything to the Senko. And you know, it it is everybody's responsibility. The Senko is just there as the strategic lead for it, so I think there's a big piece of work around school leaders and and and training. Um going round, I mean what what we I am seeing as I go round, and I I am I'm primary practitioner, so I see more primary, I suppose, than secondary. But what we are seeing is children coming into reception who are not school ready. We'll let it put it like that. But the expectation is that they get to they do nursery, they've done reception, and then they're ready to sit down on a chair with a pencil in year one and and start national curriculum. Um, and I had my big hope for the curriculum review was that key stage one would just become an extension of early years foundation stage. So by sort of the middle of year two, they were starting to get ready for year three. Because I think there's there's so much basic stuff that is just not covered, or these youngsters take a lot longer to for it to go into their brains, that you know, they're always gonna be constantly behind their peers in terms of send because they start so much further back than you know, so yeah. I've got I've got Senko's who's saying, you know, we've got a five-year-old who's actually in developmentally age two. Well, you don't make those three years up, you know, if you suddenly got uh that you're expected to sit on a chair and and you know write and all the rest of it. It's they still need play, they still need lots and lots of social uh interaction, etc. etc. So um, you know, and I know there are schools now that are actually doing that sort of continuous provision through key stage one because that's what they believe um you know these children need. Um and and you know, I the government wants it to be early intervention, they want it to be early identification, and I think we've got to involve more um of our private sector preschool providers, if you like. You know, every parent now, if a working parent is entitled to 30 hours of free childcare from nine months, so these are children who are in those early years provisions or with a child mind or whatever from nine months. So we ought to be able to impact on that very early education. Um, but there's still a, I believe, a disconnect between those uh those private early years providers and the education system, and I think there's got to be um more of that. Um and and I I think that we've just got to get it it is training training, it's it is about making sure that anybody who's working with these children um has has got the knowledge and the skills they need to meet their needs. The other bit that is I think is pressing, and I think this probably goes back to the person you talked to from speech and language therapy, is we just don't have the support services that we now we used to have. So, you know, I back in back in the day when I, you know, was was a Senco, my local authority had a full CEN team. So you would ring them up and you know, you'd say, I've got this child, can you come out and look? And the following day, somebody would be there. They they might not have been an educational psychologist, but they'd be somebody that had got some expertise in something, and they'd be there and they'd do an observation and they'd say, try this, try that, you know. We haven't got any of that anymore. So, as you said, you know, you want CAMs, you want a speech and language therapist, you need a an ed psych. It it is just one, it's expensive because you have to pay for it now, and two, it is, you know, it is that they're like hens teeth in terms of trying to get hold of them. And you know, that most of them that are available are just doing statutory work. So they're just doing the work towards um EHC needs assessments.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Yeah, I mean we we had um just sorry, just just because it's just I get I just need to get it out. So we we had uh uh my daughter's EHC review um last week, and she at the moment gets eight hours across the entire year with a speech and language therapy. You know, I say that very loosely, because she gets she receives absolutely zero therapy, so that's four hours contact time, and four hours of her eight hours that she gets with assault person is used for writing the report. So she doesn't actually receive any sort of therapy, it's batted again, it's batted back to primary school teachers to help my little girl with it with the speech, but then she's also got PDA, so she she doesn't present very easily to someone who is new. So they just said to my wife, Well, we'll just discharge her then because what do you want us to do? Well, hang on a minute, she she she's got quite a high level of speech and language needs. Can we have some therapy, please, speech and language therapist? Of which they said there's no scope to do that. So where does that leave school? Because we we sort of said, Well, no, you can't you can't just take away provision if she's doing well, the reason she's doing well is for that pr provision. But if you can't access or get her to engage, that doesn't mean that you give up.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Like it's not mad. But then if it's written in the plan, it's a statutory obligation of the local authority, exactly. And and schools, schools are getting beaten up for not providing what's written in the plan, but actually they don't have the skills to be able to provide what's in the plan because it could needs to come from a professional, and uh, you know, another professional. It's a bit like you know, I often think, you know, as a primary teacher, you know, you have to teach everything. But and and yes, I used to teach music, but I certainly wouldn't be able to teach GCSE music, you know what I mean? I'm not qualified or trained to do that, and we're expecting support staff often, so our teaching assistants, to deliver speech and language programmes that they've never ever had any specialist training to do.

unknown 37:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

And you know, if the government are going to bring this inclusion agenda at, you know, to the forefront, there's got to be resource in there that that is bringing in those paraprofessionals, if that's the right word, to support our educational professionals. Um, because you know, that's not what we train to do.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

Absolutely, absolutely totally agree. Because that look like we love our my little girl's she has a one-to-one full-time in school, and she's brilliant with her. Like my my little girl absolutely loves her. She's always saying, Oh, can I go and show her this? Can I go and show her this? Like when she's anything she's got anything new or whatever, she's really excited to see her the next day. And that's through just getting to know my daughter, and through hard work and to to to then lay on, right? Well, you let's just buy it back to you, you you can deliver a full speech and language program.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Like, that's not fair at all.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Um well, we're talking about now sort of like adult mental health, teacher burnout. So sort of what what what do you think? I think burnout and I think teet teacher burnout and and especially uh currently there's quite a lot of staff off in my school, yeah, just through overworked, stressed, why why do you think that's hit sort of crisis level? I think I think the job do you see it a lot in primary school? Because obviously I'm I'm secondary school, I see it a lot in just my own school.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Absolut staff absence in in all schools is very, very high. Um and uh in special school it's also very high, and obviously in special schools it's it has far more impact because you know, though the the staff are there to support very complex needs, and if one of those staff is off, that can have a huge impact on you know what what's going on. Um, but I think uh again, I think it was it was happening before pre-COVID, you know, staff absence was getting higher. I think post-COVID staff have got more anxiety, they've got more stress worries. I think there's a lot more um going on in terms of you know their their outside school lives, you know, people are uh you know financially there's a crisis, I think, you know, people having to cope a lot more. But I I think the job is some I I personally think the job is now untenable in terms of what is expected of you know a an average class teacher because it it you know you might be really brilliant. I mean, yeah, yeah, you're really brilliant at music, but actually you're not just teaching music on a day-to-day basis, you are having to do a whole host of other things, as well as supporting you know, children that are not maybe musical or or you know, you having to adapt your lessons or whatever. Um and it I I just think it's it's just become a real challenge for people. Um, and and I was the always the first to say to anybody I met going to teaching it's the best job in the world, but I I'm not sure I would say that to anybody now, because I just think that the pressure that is put on people, um, and and that the more you do, the more's expected of you. So that you know, and yeah, I was with some um somebody from a very, very small school earlier this week, um, and there's only there was five staff in this very small village school in Oxfordshire, and the primary, and uh, you know, every member of staff has got like three curriculum areas, um, and you know, that they they also take responsibility for safeguardian and send, and and you just think, how do you do the day job when you've got all of that as well? And and then somebody goes off sick, so you can't get your PPA cover, and it's it just all sort of implodes, really. So I think staff mental health is is massive. Lots of schools are doing lots of things to support, you know, as best they can. Um, but and and and a lot of those rely on everybody being in in school so that people can get their time, you know, that that they're they're entitled to. Um and I think they're you know, they're they're I don't want to sound negative about this, but I do think that once upon a time teaching was a vocation. You went in it because you you loved to do that job. I think it's just become more of a job for some people nowadays, and I think it's much harder then. If it's a vocation, you go over and above. And I would say 90% of our staff do do that, but I think there's probably m more coming in now as a job, and they don't you know they don't last as long. So they they come in and maybe do five years and then they go off and do something else.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Yeah, I think I've I've I've noticed sort of and I'm not I'm absolutely not saying that this is a bad thing whatsoever, but younger staff members are really good at saying, no, I'm I'm I'm not that's not what part of my job description or I'm not willing to do that, or this is in the this is in the handbook, or this is in the policy, like good on you, fair enough. Do you know what I mean? Like I back in the when I first started it, I was yeah, yeah, whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd I'd hit a place where I was like, I'm I think I'm doing a little bit too much here. Um so yeah, you're right. But look, that's I think like you said, mental adults' mental health, teachers and leaders, that's got to be shaping sort of what's happening in the classroom. Because obviously, as a as a leader, as a teacher, you're the one that sets the atmosphere, the the vibe, whatever you want to call it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

And and I mean absolutely, and also our young people are very perceptive, so they know if somebody's coming in on a bad day and they will take advantage of that. So, you know, you it it is, you know, it's it's the the tough bit is you've got to go in there and be 100% of the time, let your guard down for anything like you know, a lesson, and you you that's when you'll see behaviour and challenges and all the rest of it. Um so it's it and you know, I think that you know, youngsters that they know more about the world, they're more street wise, they're more savvy. Um, and that they also know their rights. You can't do this, you can't do that, you can't take my phone off me. You know, that they are also much more um, you know, I'm sure you, but you know, teachers were like gods when we were at school, you know. You didn't and and if you got into trouble, you certainly didn't tell your parent because you'd get in trouble again at night, you know. But now the parents up at school before you've had a chance to talk to the parents.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

So we're living in a different ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

But we're we're living in a different world, and um, you know, we're not preparing, I don't think, our staff to be able to deal with that. Um, I think the other thing, Dan, is that you know we've seen an awful lot big reduction in staffing in schools, so you know, in terms, especially in terms of um additional support staff, and also because of the rise in the numbers of children with special needs, a lot of those that would have been, if you like, general teaching assistants who would be there to support teachers are now having to support individual pupils, either on a one-to-one or small group basis. So there, you know, there isn't enough staff in school to really be able to meet the needs of these youngsters. And you know, with the if we if you I mean if you set it's it's it's probably not quite so bad. Um, but you know, if you've got multi you know you you have um pupils from you know at all ability, mixed ability, you know, trying then to adapt and adjust your teaching and what you're giving them, and you know, it's it is a lot of work. Um you know, and and yeah, I I look back and I sort of think, well, actually, it is probably easier now because you can go on OCUP Academy and you can go on YouTube and you can pull down this and that, but you've still got to adapt it. You can't do one size fits all. So um, you know, you're still doing a lot of work outside of of your general classroom teaching.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

With that in mind, and again, I'm I'm not asking you to fix the whole system. What would you change first with regards to teacher workload and what is expected of them?

SPEAKER_00 46:42

I think, well, I'll go back to training. I think you know better training initially is is really really important. And I yeah, I do think that teachers need to, and PPA time is great, and you know, everybody you know should get that, and that's that should be sacrosanct and not used. But I think that you know people should also get time to do the other aspects of their jobs, and and you know, I know schools that do that, they will give, you know, if the I don't know, the Senko is having to do um as uh EHC needs assessment, then they'll get the time to do that, or you know, if they're planning for for writing a policy or whatever, but that is becoming increasingly difficult. So having enough staff to be able to release stuff to do some of that sort of uh let's say, you know, extra teaching work or duty type stuff, I think it would be really, really helpful. Um, there's been a lot of stuff around recently that you know, secondary schools have maybe got two bigger leadership teams and there's you know too many assistant head teachers, but actually, if they're doing their jobs properly, that should be taking some of the burden off the teaching staff, you know. So again, it's just looking at how schools are being run. The other thing that I do I you know, I I've I do think we've got to get better at, and I'm not saying we're not because some are brilliant, but we've got lots and lots of multi-academy trusts now, we've got very few standalone schools, you know, most schools belong to a trust, and in some of those trusts, they have become really, really inclusive and supportive of the whole group of schools. What we've seen some mats is you've got a very expensive top tier in terms of you know, the sort of senior, senior leaders who are disconnected from the you know, the Joe Slopes, Joe Sophie in the classroom. And I think you know, mats have got to get better at providing some of that specialism in the same way the local authority used to. So I know mats that have actually appointed their own educational psychologist, you know, mats that have actually got a speech and language therapist, um, you know, mats who that have actually got a um an inclusion manager or a sen manager who then supports all of the senko's across the mats. Often in smaller mats, I have to say, because obviously it's a lot easier, and also mats that are closer together, because again, some of them are spread all over the country. But yeah, mats took over really from local authorities. So I think that you know that that there's got to be a better a bigger place for them in in all of this as well.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

That's interesting to say that, yeah, because it's it's it I don't know. I mean, we've just come into a mat. Um I don't know if I I don't really want to to talk about in that month, but it it you are right, it just like some of it like four tiers of m senior management above the hair teacher, and they're not getting paid peanuts. And like in ours, we we have things like there's an IT levy, so everybody pays a certain amount much for each a certain amount from each school, and then you you either bid or it whenever it's your turn to get new IT equipment, then that's that's fine. But like you said, if there was like a send levy, where right we can all pay into this bucket, and then that's gonna get us either, like you said, speech-language therapist, or um someone who understands more complex needs, or whatever whatever that might be. I think that's a great idea. I've not actually not read that.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

And I think if you've got a special school in your mat, you've got lots of expertise there, but you've got to put in the resource to enable them to do outreach. Because that's the other thing, we've got lots of expertise in our schools, but we need that expertise in the schools, not doing outreach, and yet they will be brilliant at doing outreach as well. So I think you know, again, we've got to resource the schools appropriately for us to be able to go and support each other because there's there's expertise everywhere, but most people sit in their silo in their school and don't get a chance to actually share that.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

So to going from that's a really good point, actually, but so moving from sort of adults to to to the young people that we serve so so obviously anxiety, emotional dysregulation, behaviour uh linked to sort of unmet needs, what I again you're you're around the country, what what do you see as sort of the root causes of that?

SPEAKER_00 51:39

I think I think our young people today uh lack resilience. Um I I I you know I'm not sure why that is, but I don't and I don't remember ever being taught to be resilient, but then I was allowed to go off on my own during the summer holidays, and you know, nobody worried about me. I didn't have a phone. If I came back for my tea, then all was good, you know. And if I fell off my bike, then I just picked myself up, and you know, so I think we've that that you know they are probably maybe more wrapped in cotton wool than they used to be, and I understand that from a parent point of view because life's tough out there, you don't want your kids wandering the streets because there's a lot of people out there you wouldn't want them mixing with. But what that has meant is that I I don't think our youngsters are as independent as they used to be, they're not as resilient as they used to be, they don't bounce back. Um, and because of that, they actually then find if they're in a situation where somebody say no or somebody is you know telling them off, if you like, they actually can't deal with it because maybe that hasn't happened at home, or if it does happen to home, that then you know they they get you know whatever a reward rather than uh you know a sanction, if you like. And that's not blaming parents again, but I just think it's that world that we we're living in. I I also think that I'm I'm a real this is one of my bê noirs, I suppose, because of my age, but I do think that social media and the use of devices has got a big part to play in um where our young people are at the moment in terms of I don't believe that a brain, their brain is actually was wired to to do all of that constant stuff that they're doing. I worry about some of the games and some of the online stuff that they do because I think it's it's very negative, and you know, when we look at behaviour and some of the things that some of our youngsters are doing, I just think it's coming from that. I think you know, TikTok and some of the influences that are on there, so I don't think any of that has helped. Um and and our very young children are just sat in front of devices for too long because it's you know it's it's what they want, and and that's how they're growing up, and you know, and parents are on devices a lot as well, so yeah, what you it's what you are what what what they are, innit?

SPEAKER_02 54:14

But and it's also like you like you're saying, if you if you want to flip that on its head, it's it's looking at the curriculum, that is what their future holds, their future is going to be they may not have to write ever again's future.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

And you know, one of again, one of my soapboxes is you know, if you've got a child in year one who does not have the dexterity to be able to write, then why are we making them write? Why don't we just give them a keyboard and teach them to touch type? Because that's all they'll do in the world of work. You know, even in a you go in a restaurant nowadays, they don't write down your order, they put it onto an iPad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

You don't even have a way to just get yourself a QR cord, put it on your phone, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 54:55

That's right, yeah. Yeah, you know, I think that that's the 21st century bit that we haven't caught up with. You know, we still expect everybody to be able to write in nice cursive handwriting, and um, you know, and we still do we, you know, we're still doing exams written.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Um well then that would that alleviate some of the problems? Would that mean that they don't have to be? Would because I th maybe they're resilient in other ways. I don't know, maybe because we're expecting them to do writing and to and to read books that they have to hold. That is bec that is the reason why that they don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Yeah, but and I I think you might be right, Dan, because we're asking them to do stuff that's not part of their world, you know. Again, I I I know it's a long time ago, but you know, what every single weekend I would go to our local library with my parents because that's what you did. But nowadays, you know, you might go to play football or you might go swimming, but you will also spend quite a lot of time on a device, either playing games or you know, watching videos or YouTube or whatever. So that's why we need an education system, and I'm not saying you know, spend all day playing games, but we've got to get these youngsters to understand that it is important that they can read and then they can do maths, but they need to do it because it's what they're gonna do in the future. Um, you know, they need to do it, and I I I'll just do a little anecdote because this always it's been it's resonated with me for years. I was doing some work in a secondary school a few years ago now, and I was I was working with some pupils, and there was a young lady, she was in year nine, um, and she'd never learnt to read, she just was really struggling, and you know, everything was an issue because of you know, the textbooks, the worksheets, everything she'd got to read. And she said to me, But I don't I don't need to read, she says, I want to be a hairdresser. And I just sort of said to her, Look, you know, you know, I have to go and have my hair coloured. I want to know you can read the instructions on the back of that tube so I don't go green. And it was like a light bulb. She suddenly realised that there were certain aspects of hairdressing that she needed to have reading. But, you know, why aren't we giving her, you know, magazines about hairdressing or giving her instructions to read or making it purposeful for what she's gonna do, as opposed to reading Shakespeare or I don't know what the books are nowadays, but do you know what I mean? And which has absolutely no meaning to them whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 57:36

Um totally under I totally get that. Yeah, it's it's it's a tightrope, innit? It's it's it's a strange one. So just just sort of coming coming away from that then. Obviously, I need I've got to mention it, Lorraine, obviously. Um I don't know if you if you sing about it or not, I don't know, but obviously in 2009 you got yourself an OBE. A DHS. Yeah, for services to education. Yeah. So we've got we've got to have a little sing and dance about that.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

Okay, we'll we'll have a little dance.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

So I just want to sort of look at because it just something that you mentioned at the start is because obviously I I talk to a lot of people on this podcast about send reform and um education reform and what what they want to do. But I want to know is because obviously you mentioned you've been you've led nason and and now you're working across the UK UK. And are we anywhere close to inclusion? That's the first thing. And second, how you said you were involved with the DFE, DFE, and uh at changing legislation in the past. Is that an easy job to do, or is that is there a lot of red tape to get through? Is that a difficult thing to do? Is that why it's so hard to change anything? Because there's so many obstacles to get to.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Yeah. Um I mean, I when I was working with Nathan, lots of people used to say to me, Oh, you need to go into politics, you need to, you know, you can make a change and and all the rest of it. And when I was in in education, when I was a head teacher, you know, the DFE were up here. They were like gods, you know, they're they're you they're your bosses, really, if you're you know in education. And and I remember going to my very first meeting in London at the DFE, big round table, thinking, oh, you know, little old me here. And you you realise, um, and I'm sorry anybody who's listening from government, but you realise that actually very, very few parliamentarians, let's say, whether they're civil servants or ministers, have any more knowledge about education than the fact they went to school.

unknown 59:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

So these people are dictating dictating, if that's the right word, policy and procedure uh uh around you know what should be happening without really having the knowledge and and again the knowledge and the skills to be able to do that, which is why they do, you know, they do use people like Nathan and other organisations. But you know, at the end of the day, whatever whatever goes through in a consultation, what they want will come out the other end. And it's usually got obviously finance is a massive one, you know, in terms of the budget is not as big as we'd like it to be. But I also think that they they use data to say what they want the data to say, not what you know you or I might look at data in terms of at that at that very local level, you know. So so yes, I think you know it is hard working in any government department because you're still tied because you've got party politics, you've got the finance, you know, the treasuries, what we whichever department, you know, the treasury is God, and and you know, that it always has to go back through the treasury. But then you've also you're working with the Department for Health, you're working with the Department for Social Care. Um, and then they might actually look like they're working together at that level, but that doesn't always necessarily translate, you know, four, five, six, seven layers further down. Um and and it, I mean, my I personally think education should be taken out of government altogether, and partly because you know, you could have a different party in charge every five years. Well, how are you supposed to develop a major thing like health or education in a five-year window? You know, we're we're 18 months into this parliament. Um, you know, we had that budget yesterday, didn't really go anywhere or do an awful lot for anybody. And you know, in another 18 months' time, we'll be looking at preparing for the next election, and and and we need that a much longer term vision. And I think looking back over my time, the best bit for education, and this isn't about party politics at all, was actually I can't remember the dates now, but when Labour were in for 15 years, and it wasn't that they were, you know, maybe any better, but they were there for 15 years. They came into power to do, they did answer them. Because you know, they they they were able to. But you know, usually what happens is a new government comes in, everything that was done beforehand gets thrown out the window, and we start all over again. That's not helpful either. So you know, I think that it in some ways we could do without education being anything to do with government, but that's not going to happen in my lifetime. So um I can't remember what it was you said to start off with. I can't remember what you think.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

It was I said, are we any are we anywhere close to inclusion?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

Oh yeah. Um, I think that at the end of all of this and the crisis and all the rest of it, I still think, given that I have worked internationally as well, we still have a really good system for those youngsters that have got additional needs. I think that, you know, we we we do our very best for them and we uh you know do what we can under the circumstances. I think we are much better at inclusion, I'm gonna say in primary schools because they can. It's it is easier in primary schools. I think that the accountability on special schools is what holds us back at secondary. Because I think you know, you've got head teachers, heads of school, mat leaders, who all they see is that bottom line progress eight, attainment eight. And so if they they if they are being asked to take a child who is never going to get eight GCSEs, they'll be saying we can't meet need. And and that's when I think the inclusion agenda is is not it's it's there's too much debate between accountability and the the inclusion agenda. But I do think we are far, far better than we used to be, and I think teachers are getting much better at being able to adapt and meet need, but I think there's still a way to go, and part of that is because the complexity of the need has increased so significantly, and we are, you know, we are seeing pupils, children in our mainstream schools that five years ago would have gone to special school, no doubt about it. But unfortunately, our special schools just can't, you know, they haven't got the the places.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

So it let's just uh you you talked about being on that round table in the DFE, say next week or over Christmas or whatever, you background that round table and you have the chance to speak directly to these policymakers, so thinking about send proform send reforms, early intervention, what what would you want to put in place now?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

What could what Okay, so I would want much greater working relationships between settings, so that's early years providers, primary schools, secondary schools, post-16, special schools, alternative provisions, you know, working much more together locally so that we get that expertise. I'd want to see a massive training program that is for everybody, not just the initial teacher trainer. I would want to see there being some sort teachers won't like this, but some sort of mandatory um amount of training that teachers have to do as part of performance management. Um and and again, have time to do that, but be given that. And I think I would also want to serve. A bit of a shake up in the education system, so it is actually geared up to meet the needs of our 21st century children and young people. Not much to ask.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:15

So on that, so you've talked to, I know reading some of your stuff that and on your website and stuff, you talk about sort of early intervention being so what would a truly preventative system look like and how might that work in your eyes?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

It's gonna it would take a long time to get there, I've got to say, it's not gonna happen overnight. But I think that if we are getting these the you know a lot of these youngsters into early years providers earlier, I think that we need and and we're starting to see family hubs or family centres where they could, you know, there can be triage where health visitors are much more involved, where you know we've got early years practitioners involved. So they are identifying these youngsters at two and three. And you know, again, we've we've had years of oh, we can't we can't identify them, we can't label them until they're seven or eight or whatever. You know, as a parent, I'm sure you saw differences in in your little one from a very early age. So we might not want to diagnose or label, but actually we can start identifying and putting in the strategies to support. Um, so it to me it's about everybody working together, but then having those opportunities for families, for parents preschool to be able to get the support as well, so that when they do come into school, they've already had some of that support. Um, and and you know, in school we can then work with what we've got coming in and and you know move that on.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:53

Love that, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

Um, just one last one before we sort of start talking about leaders and and improving. What how can I want to sort of uh because obviously we're gonna get a lot of teachers listening, how can mainstream schools become more confident and empowered in supporting diverse needs if that makes it because uh like you said it inclusion, inclusion, inclusion. How are we gonna do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:17

Yeah, I I think it's about looking at your cohorts coming in. So again, uh from a from a primary point of view, what's what's coming in in September next year, from a secondary point of view, I believe we should already still have started on transition. I know you don't know exactly who you're gonna get, but in most instances, parents will get first choice or maybe second choice, so we can start sort of do doing that transition and and you know, offering, I don't know, science days or music days for year six pupils to come to your school and you know, actually start to get used to that in the same way, you know, preschool and schools working together, so that it it we don't have the anxiety, we don't have the the worry and the stress, and teachers get to know their future generations, if you like. So it's not, you know, it doesn't all happen on September the 1st when you you know we're all off to a we should be having that continuous flow of building those relationships, getting to know our families, getting to know parents, and that should go right the way through the whole system. Whereas I I think at the moment it's all a bit preschool, primary, secondary, post-16, and you know, it's it's it's not joined up, and somewhere in between all of that, you've got special and proves and alternative provisions, and you know, we we need to see a much smoother system that goes all the way through and follows that that young person with the support.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:59

I like that. Again, it's like you're saying it it's c it's a collaborative effort, isn't it? And you are yeah, it is it's it's it is very much fragmented, and there's uh there's often there's times in sort of year seven we've had no data whatsoever. No and and that's appalling.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

I mean, you know, primary schools should be passing on absolutely everything to you, you know, and I I would you know I'd I just find it appalling that that's still happening, especially for them your most vulnerable youngsters, because you need to have that information to start delivering on day one. It's no good getting it at October half term. We with you know, most of those youngsters have been suspended by them because you know you haven't known what you needed to know. So there's got to be much a much sort of more um you know joined upness of um and and of course you know that fragmentation is not helped by all the different academy chains and then those schools that are still maintained, and you've got the independent sector who you know again have got lots of expertise, so it's um yeah, it's all a bit disparate.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

I would agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:09

So just listening who feel uh a little bit exhausted or perhaps a little bit overwhelmed, overwhelmed, I'm sorry, what practical, realistic steps can sort of help them to improve their practice without sort of burning out because we all want to get better.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

Yeah, I I mean the first thing I'd like to say, Dan, to anybody listening is you know, nobody gets up in the morning and thinks I'm going into school today to do a bad job. Nobody. So, you know, I you know there are I don't know how many teachers out there, you know, doing their best for our youngsters and getting in at seven o'clock in the morning and you know, staying till eight o'clock at night or whatever. So I can't, I'm not gonna say do work harder because that's not the answer. I think the first thing I would say is make sure you've got good well um life balance, you know, work life balance, because you know, if you've got a family, you know, they need you just as much as the youngsters in school. But I think it for me it is about relationships, it's about making sure that you know those pupils as well as you possibly can. Not just your S E N or your vulnerals, but all of them, so that when you have a youngster in front of you who maybe is looking a little bit more anxious than normal or is not coping with whatever you're giving them, you know, because of the relationship you've got with those youngsters that something's wrong. And you know, in the same way that if we saw a bruise for such on somebody, it might be a safeguarding concern. If you see somebody that is upset or is being, you know, sort of more challenging, or they are telling you something, they are communicating to you that something's not right, and if you know that child well, you'll you'll see it and you'll observe it and you'll know what to do about it. And I think that's for me, it's building those relationships. Um, you know, it doesn't matter how good a teacher you are in terms of you know your practice and and you know, you can be an all-singing, all dancing teacher, but if you don't actually understand and know your pupils, it's it isn't gonna work.

unknown 1:13:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:26

No, I totally agree. So what what about moving from teachers? What about sort of leaders and SENCOR's SLT members' heads? What could they do differently or just foster sort of a supportive or maybe an emotionally literate school? Because I know that's obviously something that you talk a lot about.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

But I think again, it's about knowing your pupils, you know. I mean, I I always it was easy again, you know, primary school is easier, I know, but within the first week of the of the autumn term, I knew every child's name. And I had like 350. So as a head, I knew every single child, and I tried to get to know the families as well as I could. Um, again, primary school's parents turn up at the door so you can have that relationship. But I think, you know, getting to know the background, getting to know that youngster. Um, and I just think that, you know, it it it is about education, it is about obviously delivering the teaching and learning, but it is also about you know, tea teaching is a relationship-based profession, and that's that's the bit that we mustn't lose sight of.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:36

No, yeah, I I know it, yeah, I totally agree. That's that's that is my favourite part. I'm quite lucky. I always say I'd probably get sacked if I was a math teacher, but just because I'm sort of on the periphery a little bit. Obviously, I'm I'm accountable for results and things like that, but I'm I'm I'm a one-man band in excuse the pun in uh in my school, so I'm the only music teacher. So I I I do value and I do spend a lot of time getting to know the kids, and that's my that's my favourite part of the job, I think, is it's it's doing music, but also figuring out what makes people tick and trying to lead someone a little bit better than when I sort of found them if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:15

Yeah, but I think that is easier anyway in creative subjects because whether it's PE or art or drama or music or whatever, because some of our pupils can shine in those subjects.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:29

Yeah, I'd I've struggled to build a relationship with you through algebra on that. I don't know how I'd like to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:33

Yeah, exactly. You know, and especially you know, at least you know, children could well, young people understand why they're learning music or why they're doing art. It is very difficult to try and explain why you need to know about quadratic equations, because in the whole of my life I've never used a quadratic equation in my life. So you know I would agree, I would agree, and I think that's you know, that's the bottom line, isn't it? We've got to make education purposeful for our young people, they've got to see why they've got to do it because there's a lot of stuff that's being taught in schools that actually will never have any place in their lives in the future.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:14

Absolutely not. Uh right, just quickly wrapping up then, just some just a few little questions for you, uh Lorraine. Okay, so looking back on your career, what you're most proud of.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

Um well, I'm I'm I'm just proud that I've been in education for 40 odd years now. I'm glad I'm not here to very very proud of the fact that I got my OBE, which you know is is was just magical. Um, and the fact that I'm still doing it because I am so passionate about it that I can't let go. And you know, I I I I just can't. I just need that's something, you know, even if I wasn't doing any of this sort of you know work, I'm still a governor in a special school, I'm a trustee of a mat. Um, you know, it's it's it's what I've lived and breathed all of my life. Um, and I am, you know, I've loved every minute of it. There's very little, there's a been one or two bits that I didn't enjoy very much, but most of it I've loved. Um, and I will carry on doing what I can to, you know, fight for um teachers, for support staff, and for our kids as well, because I just think, you know, education is so important in in whatever that looks like for future.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:32

No, I totally agree. And you're just getting to know, you know, that your passion shines through Lorraine. Thank you for your time. Just quickly, what what gives you hope right now then, despite the challenges sort of about the future and of education as a whole going forward?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:47

What gives me hope, Dan, is whenever I go into any school, it is that daily pursuance of just doing the right thing for children. You know, the majority of our teachers go into school every single day to make lives better for our pupils. And and you know, that might be, you know, that actually we've got teachers who are going out and buying food for families because not that they should, but you know, or just making somebody smile or just giving somebody a treat. You know, I just think that our teachers are passionate, the majority of them, and they want to make a difference to our our youngsters' lives, and and that is that gives me hope because they're still out there and they're still doing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:34

But the teachers, come on, yeah, absolutely, and the teaching assistants, yeah, and the sorry, and the TAs, and the admin staff, and the and the caterers and everything else. Um, site staff. So we're just just wrapping up then. Thank you I really appreciate your time, Lorraine. I honestly I've read a lot about you, and and you've you have been recognized, and and I hope you do feel recognised. Yeah, and recognising you. Um but yeah, you you've you've done a lot and and it's it's been great to speak to you. You are very insightful and obviously very passionate. Uh, just quickly, work and listeners, find your work, your training, consultancy, resources, anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:12

Yeah, well, if you just um if you just Google Lorraine Peterson Education Consultant, you'll get to my website, there's a contact form on there, um, and just contact me. And you know, if somebody wants me to go into school and do some work, I can do that. Um, or if they just want to send me an email because they've got something that they want to share with me, absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:33

And what's that email address?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:35

Um www.lpec.org.uk. I'm looking at my husband because he does all of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:47

Oh, thank you, Dan.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:50

Okay. Thanks, Dan, that's great. Good to meet you.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:31

So that that's a really it's an important conversation that and there were moments there that probably felt very familiar for a lot of parents and teachers listening, and some that were really hopeful too, and I d I don't know, I just I feel like there's too few people like Lorraine. There's a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of good people in in this education system, uh, but I think there's there's not many like Lorraine. Um I think it's clear we've still got a long way to go with SEND support. And I think just from experience with my little girl There's quite a lot of there's so much that schools are expected to do with even fewer resources now than they've had in the past. And I just think we need more people like Lorraine shouting about it than us because there's so much pressure and just things to deal with for people who deal with S E N D. I know it's it's everybody's everybody's responsibility but there just seems to be a real lack of I don't know, a team around these children because at my look like my little girl's school they they're doing they go above and beyond, but it shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be the f the We're lucky in that sense because they do so much for her without the funding that they probably should have. So yeah. But it's conversations like this that are such a big part of making change happen and we need to do it more. So if you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe to the podcast. Don't forget get yourself over to detentiondiaries.com, join the blog and the community. Thank you very much for listening. Have a lovely, lovely day. I'll see you in the next episode. Bye bye.