JON CHU - Identity, being yourself and the biggest cygnet ever in Swan Lake!

The incredible Jon Chu has shared a whole wealth of wisdom with us in this episode!! From starting dance at 19, to landing an iconic role in Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake, Jon talks us through his career, inspires us to be ourselves and discusses hyper mobility at depth!

Jon's insta: https://www.instagram.com/jonchubodywork9/

Surprise, surprise - A Chorus Line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW5BTwE8jds&list=RDPW5BTwE8jds&start_radio=1

Swan Lake finale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13_D0djH3jc

Thankyou for listening!

Find all the songs mentioned in our spotify playlists!

https://open.spotify.com/user/31t7e7ibcbntq6ziwbonzbra7ape?si=L0XQuZlnTYq8_ybkvlliaQ

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dancetothispodcast/?hl=en

Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dancetothispod

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi everyone and welcome back to Dance This Podcast with me, Joe Francesca, and me, Jessica Faye, the podcast where you can find great songs to dance to.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Whoop whoop.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

We're still in London and it is boiling. Can't even tell you. We tried to lirk on, still not working. We've got the fans out.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Bother listeners. No, that's too loud, Jessica. You can crop that if that was a bit definite. I'm sorry. Sorry, Tom. I like it. Okay. I like it.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Today we have got John Chu. He is incredible.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Like, have you spoken about him on the podcast before? Or is it just made you all the time, I think? I've heard the same story about like five million times, but I will let Zoe tell it.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Just one bit. Basically, he's amazing. You have an injured shoulder and he'll poke your knee and it will feel better. Like he just knows the body inside out. He's a dance rehab person now. Dance rehab person. Sorry, it's too warm for my brain to be working. Um, what's the right word? Sports massage therapist and injury rehab work. There we go. Um what's the right word? All to do with the body. Yeah, rehab was the right word. Definitely all to do with the body, um, how you move it, how it works from the inside. So I'm really excited to hear what John has to tell us. He's also been a professional dancer, of course. Um, he taught me at uni as well. So can't wait to get into all of it. But first of all, what's our West End question this time?

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Our West End question this time is favourite musical soundtrack.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Ooh! Do you want to go first? Do you have a definite?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

I have many. I have many. I have two. I think if I had to pin it down to one, it would be in the heights.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Oh, that's one of my two as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I mean, banger, banger, banger, banger, banger. Banger, banger. I feel like there's probably there's maybe that one song that I skip and it's just a sad one because it's just it's like bam, bam, bam, and then it just gets to like a really sad song. And I'm like, no, I'm not in that vibe. But otherwise, it's like a no-skip soundtrack. Yeah, it's so good. Oh god. So good for choreography. Like, yeah. I mean, it's Lim, Mama Miranda.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

You can't beat him, you can't beat him. I beat him, guys. And it's so, like you say, dancy, Latino, all the beats, like the songs are so clever, yeah. That they feel good. Like, that's one of mine. My other one is so feeling that right now, blackout, black out. It's so odd. Um uh six is my other one. Yeah, just pop concert vibes, absolute bangers all the way through. Like I said, I love every single one of them. I love how each one is like their character, their story, and then the one at the end.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I like the fact that they're based off like a pop diva.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So clever again, another clever one.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

It's good. An honorable mention for me as well would be another soundtrack written by the writers of six Why am I so single?

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Oh, yeah, you love it.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Underrated soundtrack. Like, yeah, I actually listened to the soundtrack, it was listening to the soundtrack that made me want to go and see that show. Because yeah, there's one song on that, eight dates, that I think was got played a lot on TikTok, and then I started listening to like the sample soundtrack that they'd like released. We only had about four songs on, and I was like, okay, I need to see this, like it's so good. But that's another soundtrack where it's like even the slow ones I don't skip, like it's banger, banger, banger, it's great.

SPEAKER_03 3:16

Love it, love that. Very, very I don't need to listen to that. Yeah you played it to me, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's like party tracks.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah. Or it last honourable mention.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

New Doveloads.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Great Gatsby. Oh, yeah, great soundtrack.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Good one, really good one.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

I mean, there's so many, isn't there? I think with that one, there's just like a good mix of like fun songs and really gorgeous ballads as well.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Nice, definitely some good. I could talk about this the other day. I know you could, but we've got to get on with the episode. So welcome, welcome to enjoy the episode with John Chu. It's hot, guys.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Welcome, John, to the podcast.

SPEAKER_07 3:58

Hey, thank you for having me. Thank you very much. This is wonderful. Yay!

SPEAKER_03 4:02

I'm so excited. John was a lecturer at my uni. That's how we know each other. Many moons ago.

SPEAKER_07 4:06

Many moons ago.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

No, no, we'll just push past that part. Tell everyone what you do in the industry now.

SPEAKER_07 4:14

Uh well, um, I treat people. I basically my job is to fix people. So uh um I treat uh not just dancers but sort of everybody, and and I specialized through dance. I ended up specializing in sort of bendy people and all of the stuff that goes that becomes associated with people who are bendy, who are sort of hypermobile, etc. Yeah. Um, because people who have that, who have it quite comprehensively, tend to get lots of other things, and it gets really complicated and hard to understand your body and stuff. And of course, you don't notice because in the field of dance, everything's hard to understand about your body, so it it seems like it's normal. Um, but it turns out that a lot of it isn't normal, and so uh so I do my best to try and help people figure that out. Um, and yeah, so that's that's pretty much it, really. So um, but yeah, fundamentally uh I massage people and I do a bit of exercise with them.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Love it. Oh, I just remember your uni. I mean, I've said this, we've just said it on the intro, I've said it a million times, you'll have a shoulder injury and John will poke your knee and it'll feel better. You're like a whiz with the body now.

SPEAKER_07 5:17

I was always like, how? No, you are it was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

And you'd think we'd be like, John, help my child. It's so good having you there.

SPEAKER_07 5:26

Actually, I thought you you you guys just said things like that to sort of like sidetrack the the lectures would go off on a tangent a lot of us. No, she was great, she was great at the others though.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Like, get John talking about this, and then I'm joking, it wasn't like that. So let's take it from the top. What's your first memory of movement martial arts?

SPEAKER_07 5:52

It was, yeah, yeah. So uh so I started martial arts when I was seven. Um so uh, you know, not as not as young as some people start dancing, but but young enough for me. And um uh so I started off with uh you know, when you're seven, you go with whatever you can get hold of, right? So um so I started off with uh um jujitsu, but not every today it's Brazilian jujitsu, everything, and it wasn't that, it was traditional Japanese um jujitsu. So um by about sort of nine-ish, I was fully weapons trained. Um, and uh yeah, basically crippled with this knowledge of basic every time somebody did something or thing, you know, as a boy, you know, things get physical. I was fundamentally crippled because all I knew how to do was break bones and dislocate things and and then use weapons on people, none of which was appropriate on the playground. So basically, I just had to let people clobber me because I didn't feel I could retaliate so quickly.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Like that. You're really good.

SPEAKER_07 6:54

So fundamentally I became really good at doing forms, which led to learning movement and choreography, which I think kind of set me on the path.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Helped and LinkedIn. Oh nice. So what age were you when you actually started dancing then from that?

SPEAKER_07 7:07

I was 19, Zoe. I was a late starter, so I had to fast track everything and and dig deep to try and figure stuff out. Yeah, um, but that's also part of the reason that I quit when I quit, because I didn't have that conditioning that you have when you actually study dance during your formative years. So I'd done martial arts through my formative years, different thing. Um, you know, they don't have to turn out and all that stuff, you know, they can, but they don't always, and certainly not to the same extent. And yeah, so um uh it was good though, uh, because uh I think um as a boy it's easier, sorry, but it is easier to start later. Um, especially if you can move if you're coordinated and fairly flexible, which I was, um, then uh people are kind of yeah, we need more boys, come on in.

SPEAKER_05 7:53

Come on and do it.

SPEAKER_07 7:54

Uh um so I was lucky, but I started um I don't know, do you need to know this? Uh uh.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

Yes, this is great. Yes, what you started at.

SPEAKER_07 8:02

I started at uni. Um basically I I took uh took a year out, went to music college for a year because I thought I had to be really good at music, because I went to university to study music. And uh um because Asian, in case you hadn't noticed. So uh so my parents weren't really okay with me doing the arts, you know. It's it's a stereotype, but it's so true. Um, you know, if if if you're if you're if you have Chinese parents, then if you're not training to be uh a doctor, a lawyer, or an accountant, then basically you're a useless child. Uh and um I wasn't trained to be any of those things, but music was acceptable. Music was kind of, you know, music's reputable, you know, you can be a musician and that's okay. Um, so I did took a year out, went to guitar college, uh, went uh went went to uni, um, uh discovered it wasn't quite what I thought it was gonna be. It was a brilliant course, but it wasn't what I thought it was gonna be. Um so they had me, you know, playing playing electric guitar with power drills and all sorts of weirdo things, which was brilliant. Um but the the entire course was based on John Cage uh and John Cage's teaching. And of course, John Cage was the partner of Merce Cunningham, so all of the chance operations and stuff from dance, which if you're into contemporary dance, which not everybody is, but but if you're into that, um, was really really shaped the scene from the 50s onwards. Um all the concepts behind that were embedded in my music course. But the thing that made it for me was that I was out running in the winter, so my first term uh in my first year, and I was out running every day trying to stay fit and all that sort of stuff, and it was getting colder and colder. And this is West Yorkshire. So um uh, and it was beautiful. We're on a uh a Henry Moore sculpture park, Breton Hall, for anybody that's interested, uh it used to be part of the University of Leeds, and um it's it doesn't exist anymore. It's it's it's all derelict now, which is a shame because it was back in the day it was Breton Hall, Dartington College of Arts, um, and uh also Middlesex University. Though they were the three sort of like seminal places, yeah. Um anyway, so I was running every day, uh um, sort of in the mornings, and it was getting colder and colder. And I remember running in the snow, I had like the squirrels running next to me, keeping me company. And and every day I would finish the run by running past the dance studio, and I would see all of these quite attractive looking, scantily clad people in a very warm studio, wearing not very much, looking like they're having a great time. And I was running past them in the snow, kind of going, I want to be in there. So I crashed it. I crashed it, and and I was lucky enough that my very first teacher there, um, who whose class I crashed was a lovely lady called Janet Smith. And if if anybody um knows sort of like people, she she went on to she had Janet Smith and dances back in the day, and then she she was she she um she was in charge of Dundee rep and then she would she became the head of the Northern Sch uh Northern School of Contemporary Dance and stuff. But back then I was lucky enough that she was just another teacher, uh uh just another lecturer there. Um, and um so she took a shine to me and invited me to come back, so I did. Um and then as luck would have it, in my my second year, my entire faculty quit. So my course, my music course was all over the shop. So I was so for a bit of structure, I did the entire dance course um unofficially. So my as far as my parents were concerned, I was still on the music degree, but I was doing dance and then um exchange as well. So so I so I I went out to Canada um in my second year, studied in Canada as well with all of these um former dancers from the Martha Graham Company, and um so I got my Martha Graham, you know, my Graham technique pretty good out there. Wow, um and then I still contemporary dance friends of contemporary dance graduated with a music degree technically. Um I won an award for best attendance on the dance degree, but but I wasn't actually a dancer.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Imagine being an actual student on that course.

SPEAKER_07 11:58

Oh, yeah, it was quite funny. I mean, it was kind of a joke award, but everybody was like, Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 12:04

I do every day.

SPEAKER_07 12:06

Um and uh yeah, and then and then after that I went to um uh ballet school because the one thing that I couldn't do um was uh was ballet. Uh I had a bit of ballet and and I chased the ballet teacher there, Graziella Kaplan, who her favourite thing, right, was she used to make me get up in front of everybody and do changement in front of everybody by myself, um, every class and just point and laugh. Because she found it so funny, because I was overcrossing and doing because I had no idea what I was doing, my feet were flapping about and no idea. Uh yeah, but but she kept doing it. So I actually paid for private lessons with her for more abuse because I because I thought actually I'm not good at this, I need this. Um, and then so um, so same thing. Then I went to ballet school after that and um had a place on the one year at uh because I'd I'd done a three years already, getting old and you know, running out of money. So I had a one year at the place, um, so London School of Contemporary Dance, um commonly known as the place, um, for for their postgraduate. And then uh um I spent that summer after I graduated trying to earn money, it was eight grand, and I was self-funding, and I was like, I've got one summer to earn eight grand. How am I gonna do this? So I did loads of dance jobs. There was fortunately lots of places, lots of people were hiring, there were lots of gigs, and I I remember doing one job. Um there was a hundred of us wearing black and white and and and doing moving in slow motion across London, as you do. Um, and uh, and of course, after doing a day of that, you know, and it was a full week of that, but every day we were like pub, pub, let's just get to the pub. Slow mo to the pubs.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

Yeah, slow-mo to the pub, and just like need a drink this way, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 13:52

But you know, it's London. People walking past like not caring, and then the other ones that do care are like, thank you. Um so uh so anyway, so I I ended up with a bunch of people that I really liked. We used to go to the pub, uh we went to the pub quite regularly, and um, and I said to them, I don't guys, I need your advice because because I I've got a place within one year, it's post-grad, I can't afford it. What am I gonna do? And they all said, go to Rombert. And I was like, um, Rombert School of Uh Ballet and Contemporary Dance, for anybody that's listening and doesn't know it. Uh so it's it's actually the oldest ballet school in the country. It's older, it predates the the royal. Um and I said, you know, you must be joking, you know. I'd love uh I want to go because I want the ballet, but um, because it's the one thing I can't do, and you can't fake it. You can either do ballet or you can't, you know, and everybody and all the bit better pay jobs, you know, three minimum three years ballet training and stuff, you know, like how am I gonna get that? Um but it's ballet school, I can't go to ballet school. Uh and uh they were like, we all went, and every single person that I was in the pub with had been to Rhombe. And I was like, Oh, well, I like you guys, and your street dancers, and your jazz dancers, and your and and you all went to Romba. I was like, huh.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Maybe I can't.

SPEAKER_07 15:07

Maybe I can, yeah, but I still can't afford it. And they were like, no, no, no, it's it's university subsidized. I was like, what? They were like, yeah, yeah, it's it's part, it's it's it's it's it's um it's validated by Brunel University. So it the fees are only £1,000 a year a year.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

I was like, get sign me up.

SPEAKER_07 15:28

So I called them up and they were like, You're in luck, it's the last week of the term, come and do an audition with uh it's just a ballet class, come and join in a ballet class, and then and then we'll see. I was like, Great. So I I turned up and honestly, it was it was one of these, another one of these moments that just shaped me because I walked in and you know, you get there a bit early, unlike today. So I was late coming here for anybody to see. I'm late to everything. But uh but uh but yeah, so I got there early and everybody was so nice and they were really young because you could go you could start uh Rombear at 16 at that point, and I was like 22 or something, 20, 21, 22. Um, and uh and I and they were really nice. They came in, it was a first year ballet class that I was joining. They came in, one guy came in and said, Hey, how you doing? Uh nice to meet you, did about 17 million pirouettes and then went out for a fag and a coffee. And uh and I was like okay, and then another guy came in and said, Hey, how you doing? All right, I'm so and so and I like you. Uh and um I'll say his name actually Stu because he went on to be known as as Flexi Stu, who's who's an amazing uh um locker lock in pop-in judge, actually. So he was at Rombear as well. And uh, but yeah, so so anyway, Flexi Stu came in, and uh Stu will remember this. He is like, Hey, hey, hey, uh boom, box splits, front, front, out again, out for out for a out for a fag. You know, and I was like, where the hell am I?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

What am I doing? What is this? I think you need to like come up with some kind of greeting like any more.

SPEAKER_07 16:54

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I was like, I don't know if I'm in the right place, I don't know if I'm on the right planet. Um, and you know, and and and I just spent the last three years at Bretton Hall justifying the the fact that you don't need to do the splits to be a good dancer. And then here I was, and I was like, maybe I do okay, yeah, maybe I do. Um and then um, so anyway, we did the class, and uh I won't name the name, but he was a very prominent teacher um and head of the Chiquetti Society at the time. Might give it away. Um anyway, so he came in and he had a reputation for not being very nice, and I didn't realise that. So he came in and he took the class and then he kept pulling me out in front of everybody, making me demonstrate exercises in front of everybody, and saying to everybody in the room, look at him, he is rubbish, but he's putting in more effort than all of you. Uh I'm disgusted with you all, uh, so making an example of me to make everybody feel bad by how bad I was. Um, and uh and this is where like the beatings I'd taken, the the the the the the sort of beatings to my ego at Bretton Hall, yeah, it's fine. I was like, water off a dark specs, fine.

SPEAKER_06 18:02

Spurge on it.

SPEAKER_07 18:02

Yeah, not a problem actually, you know, sort of like I'm I'm here to work. I'm here to work, don't care. Yeah, exactly. You know, which is kind of a good professional lesson. Um, but so um so anyway, so so went through that. We came to the end of the class and I did the the protocol thing, you know, you go up to the teacher afterwards and you say hi, uh, thank you for class. And I said, Um, listen, I've got uh I've been offered a place on a one-year uh London contemporary, I've already done a degree. Is there any chance I could do a one year here rather than the full three years? And he literally looked me up and down, laughed in my face, and walked off. And I was like, I need to be here. If that's the difference in standard, that if London Contemporary is willing to give me a place on their one-year postgrad, and this place won't even give me a chance to do part of their undergrad. It wasn't even an undergrad at the time, it's like a C Tech or something. Um I was like, Well, if that's the difference, it's I need to be here. So um so I went there.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 19:00

Yeah, amazing. So that was that was how I got started. Yeah, yeah. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Also, your song for this one surprise, surprise, not styl black.

SPEAKER_06 19:10

Not styl black.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

I thought you were singing that then. I was like, I'll think that before.

SPEAKER_06 19:15

I love that you know styl black.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

When I had surprise, surprise, I was like, surprise. No, it's not that one. Greg Burge, Burge.

SPEAKER_07 19:22

Yeah, Greg, Greg Burge.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

Um Greg Burge to play a little bit. A chorus line.

SPEAKER_07 19:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

A musical classic.

SPEAKER_07 19:30

Yeah. From the movie. From the movie, yeah, yeah. Um, so this was the reason I that this was this was kind of seminal for me was because um because of the movie. I'd never seen a chorus line um live uh at that point. And it was just one of those things that I saw, and it was the first time I saw somebody dancing, and I I felt myself going, I wish I could do that. Wow. And and uh and it kind of set the bar. And Greg Burge, it's not it's not a great song when you listen to it. And I listened to it, I was like, yeah, but if you're gonna listen to the song, watch the video, like the the clip from the movie, because the dancing is phenomenal. And uh in the instrument, in the dance break, when he takes a break, it's the most ridiculous thing because he has the most beautiful, like he floats when he does jettes, and and he's doing doing you know, his uh jetes, it's sort of you know, sort of like uh you know guy going round, and he does this, he's the only person I've seen. Um actually not now, but but at the time, he was the only person I'd seen who did this thing where he did um uh uh four pirouettes. But he changed his spot every time.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

To the side, to the side, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 20:44

So so he he knew he was going to chain it to to to sort of uh coupegelettes, big ones, where he'd float going that way. So we started facing camera and he went spot, spot, spot, spot, up go.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 20:59

Clean. And I was like, that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Yes, we'll have to find it.

SPEAKER_07 21:04

That's pretty much low, but we'll watch that inspiration, definitely. Exactly. So so I mean, yeah, it was just yeah, just one of those things. So so it it set the bar for athleticism, which as a male, I needed to see. Yes, because uh yeah, exactly, because because uh, you know, sort of like before I could engage with flavour and taste and movement and sort of really juicy movement, I needed something that spoke to me and and and because I was used to more dynamic movement and kind of looking blokey. Uh athletic movement, even though you know he's wearing tights and you know he's quite a scrawny guy, and I didn't look at him and go, hey, I want to look like you. I went to be fair, I want to look like Leroy from fame, and and looking back now, he was pretty camp. I had no idea at the time, but but you know, he was stacked. Yeah, um, but but yeah, so that was that was the thing. It was it set the bar for what I um felt I wanted to do and wanted to be.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

The turning point then. So, what was it that drew you into this as a career? Was there a defining moment or did it happen? Yes. Come on, tell us.

SPEAKER_07 22:10

Yeah, yeah. Um, okay, and stop me, by the way, jump in anytime. Like, uh, I I'm I'm just talking here, but um, I'm just talking here. Um, so the turning point for me, um, this is a track nobody will have heard um because it's it's Downside Up by Peter Gabriel.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

Let's have a little flavour.

SPEAKER_07 22:30

Yeah, you might want to skip ahead till um I can't yeah. So that is on the soundtrack. It's it's a Peter Gabriel track, and uh um uh it had uh uh Elizabeth Fraser singing on it as well. She's got a beautiful voice. Um it was from a show that I was in, it's my first professional gig. Um, like it wasn't my first professional gig, really, because I've done professional gigs going to Rombear um to get into Rombeer um to try and earn the money. But um basically um at the end of my second year, um, and I I'd been a bit bad because I ran out of money again. Um, so uh so you know self-funding's hard um because you know, if especially you've done a degree, nobody wants to give you any money. Yeah, um, I already had a loan and stuff. Um so so basically I ran out of money uh in the second year, and I was offered a scholarship at Millennium Dance, like the musical theatre school. So I was like gone. And I had one of my best friends was there. I was like, I'll take it, you know. It's like uh so I did my second year there, and it was brilliant. Uh the first time I did tap classes, acting classes, you know, sort of like you know, proper mathematics, jazz, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, exactly. And all under one roof, and I realized how much fun it is and how much how much nicer you are to yourself when you don't just do one thing all day. Because if if you just do ballet all day, if you have a bad class, you're having a bad day. Whereas if you're if you if you're doing a a bunch of stuff in the day, you have a bad ballet class, my ballet class wasn't great. Onto jazz, onto tap. Yeah, exactly. Um, and I realized I was terrible at tap. It's great, yeah. It's good to know. Got to know your place, right? Stay in your length. Um, but anyway, so end of my second year, I decided I was gonna go back to Romburgh because the one thing that I missed was the ballet, because the ballet at Romber was second to none, and um, and uh that's what I went there for originally. That's the one thing I wanted. So, anyway, so yeah, there was a bit of upset there because I went back and I was like, I'm really sorry, I'm gonna have to go. And and I was like, right, I'm back to square one. How do I afford the fees? I need I need a job. And then uh my dear friend, that the late great Adele Thompson, who's another one of these unsung heroes of dance, she was uh rehearsal director of um uh Saddle's Wells Youth Dance when I was in Saddle's Wells Youth Dance. Not very youthful, but but you know, you're allowed you're allowed to you know no, you're allowed to it turns out you're allowed to be a in a youth dance company up until the age of 26.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Wow. So I exercised that. Yeah. That's a full advantage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 25:10

I wasn't the oldest one there. It was close. Um but anyway, so uh I I um uh she was the rehearsal uh uh rehearsal director for the for that company when I was there, and then um she ended up being the cat dance captain at the Millennium Dome, what is now known as the O2, because this was the year 1999-2000. Um, and so uh so that was that was my second year 1999-2000. So I was do I did satisf uh I did national youth and all these sort of stuff in in that year, and then year 2000, Millennium Dome opens up because it was originally a celebratory building to celebrate the millennium, the the the dorning. And so there was a performance happening all year round in there, and Adele was uh the dance captain for that show, and three people had become pregnant, and they thought they'd better replace them with somebody that was less likely to become pregnant, so they brought me in.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Any reason is good enough.

SPEAKER_07 26:08

Yeah, it was great, you know. It's one of those things where you know, I was lucky enough, they were like, we need a guy who's good with a stick, and she's like, I know a guy who's good with a stick and he can dance. I was like, Great, yeah, bring him in. So, so uh, so so they brought me in. Um and uh, you know, I was like, uh I was like, I need to earn money, and they were like, right, we've got a job, um, but you've got to do it till the end of the calendar year. And I was like, ooh. So I went back to uh Ross McKim, who was then the the the head of uh the the the you know the the director of the rumbe school and I said Ross, thank you very much for letting me uh first of all, thank you very much for letting me come back because you know I left and most people wouldn't do that, but you know, we had a good relationship. And I said, Is it possible that I could miss the first term of my final year? And he was like, uh, I'm not very happy about that, but yeah, all right then. Uh I was like, uh, because because I I I made the case, I needed the fees.

SPEAKER_06 27:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:07

Um, so so I started work that summer and I worked through till till uh till the end of December. Um and it was this this was this song was in there, and this was one of those points in the show where you've had all the big dramatic stuff happen, and then there's a quiet moment, and then and then there's a point where two it's like a Starcross lovers moment, sort of you've got the two characters, a boy and a girl, Sky Boy, and the girl whose name I can't remember. Um so uh and they uh they're they're from opposing sides and they've been at war, and then and then and then in the story they kind of get back together, and it's beautiful because they fly, they literally fly. Because they were they were on the rig with movers, so so they were harnessed up, and um, so they you could adjust in real time how high they were and where they were flying to. So completely three. And they had they had a mic, they had a mic in so they could talk to the rigging guys and say, take me left, take me up, take me down, so they could literally fly anywhere they were, and they would do the most beautiful duet. And this was a point where we got to take a breather and look up and just watch them just having a moment of just an intimate moment amongst all this chaos. It was a huge show, like 50 people on stage in the round, in the center of the O2. We had um yeah, you know, fifth 15,000 capacity for 15,000 people to watch, and we were doing 12 shows a week. Um, so 12. 12 shows a week every week. It was it was full on.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

Um and this is your first like welcome to the industry. Welcome to the industry.

SPEAKER_07 28:36

Here we go. Yeah, exactly. Are you hurt? Get back on stage. Wow so yeah, and there's of course, you know, and and even just things like you've been spinning around, we had to do all this aerial sort of stuff as well. Um, not as much as the actual aerialists who were all like sort of like you know, retired ex-Olimpic gymnasts and stuff, and it was ridiculous. Um, that's also where I realized that I was really weak. Um got me training, which has set me up for the stuff later. Um, but but but so basically, uh there was this point where you sat there, and every show that point kind of reminded me while I was doing why I was doing the show, because it's really easy to get bogged down in the nuts and bolts of doing this show and it's so hard and like doing twelve. Yeah, that's right. And go again, and you know, so no matter how you're feeling, go again. And uh, and then the this point would always make me cry. Um, and it was just like I'm feeling it. Actually, this is I'm I'm feeling this. This is a this is worth doing because yeah, because you've got to if you you know, you know, when you're take a pause, yeah, and and remind yourself you're in this, you're really in this, and and and I think that's that's really important because it's not it's not uh it's not an exercise, it's not a an athletic thing, it's not a competition either. It's a piece, you know, and you've got to perform it, and to to really perform it, you've got to rip yourself out and put yourself in it and say, This is me. And if you're not doing that, you're kind of selling yourself and the piece short. And it's tiring, and you so you get to the point where I'm knackered, I don't know if I can do this, and you go, No, that's why I'm doing it, I can do this. Do it.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

That's lovely advice, yeah. For fully following your passions and doing it wholeheartedly and absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 30:20

And it is hard, and it's supposed to be hard, and the struggle to do that every single time, wow, that's what makes it real. And I think that it gets lost a lot, especially if you're focusing on technique this and how high your leg goes and all. And there were loads of loads of us that did that too, you know, lost the plot up a little bit. But the ones that could make you laugh, make you cry, really make you feel it. That you know, there was one lady I I toured with, uh naming no names, but but she was she was uh she she had she was very experienced. And I remember she took class one day, uh, it was a completely different gig, and she just she said, No, no, no, no, no, don't do your Arabest like this, do it like this. And she she didn't even take her leg above 45 degrees, and literally every person in the space burst into tears. It was just the most beautiful thing that we'd ever seen. And it was just like, what the hell is wrong with me? Why am I even crying? What's that about? But she could just do that because she was so there in what she was doing, and I think um that's a thing worth cultivating because you don't need to even be on stage to do that, you being present, wholly present, is something you can cultivate, you can practice anywhere in your life, and actually everyone benefits from you being fully present, yeah. Umada, especially nowadays, technology, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

Next section, I like to move it, move it. John, what is your favorite dance style? So you've already mentioned quite a few. I know.

SPEAKER_07 31:50

I have, yeah. Well, I'm old, you see, so you know, I've got I've got stuff, done stuff. Yeah, uh I used to joke actually that uh a friend of mine is quite extreme. Uh a lot of my friends were quite extreme, and I used to joke to them all the time that I'm actually a middle of the road person. I just hang out with you guys, so I end up in really extreme situations.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

It's not me. Yeah, it's not me.

SPEAKER_07 32:12

I'm just doing the best I can in this situation I never expected to be in, never really asked for, but here we are, let's do it. Yeah, um, so uh so yeah, uh so this is uh yeah, Dream 2 Entropy uh from Max Richter by Max Richter. Actually, frankly, sort of like any of the tracks from that album um uh give the vibe. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Starts off with a bit of silence.

SPEAKER_07 32:36

It does, it's quite quiet, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Oh, it would help if I turned the volume up, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_06 32:41

Oh yeah, that too. It is quite quiet.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

John, I'm going to guess your favourite style is contemporary.

SPEAKER_06 32:54

Yeah. How did you guess?

SPEAKER_02 32:58

If you just enjive or something like that's new.

SPEAKER_07 33:03

You know, the thing, by the time I started to really find my feet with with contemporary dance, um, it started to pull together lessons that had been in my face from day one, including Janet Smith in my very first classes, because she was she would include um bits of improvisation um to uh to to explore the way you wanted to move because she was inherently a creative, she was a choreographer, and and so she would she would let us do that. And I remember when she gave us license to move the way we wanted to, she would break off herself into this movement that made her, frankly, look certifiable. And and I remember thinking, why is she itching her head like that? Why she why she look you know, sort of like doing stuff and twitchy, twitching stuff and then moving and then and then twitching, you know. I'm like, why she what what the hell? What the hell? But that was the point. The point was she was giving us license for anything to go, yeah um, because that's what she wanted. She wanted us to have license to to do whatever was real to us and whatever we felt like in the moment, being in the moment again. And um, this music, the reason I like it is partly because it speaks to that, um, because it's a sound canvas, it's what we learned in the music degree side of it. I learned something. You were there for enough lessons to pick up some little bits. I caught that one, and uh, but it it's it's a sound canvas. So so basically it creates a mood, it creates a vibe, it creates a soundscape, and the rest is for you to fill in. And I like that.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Very contemporary way of thinking.

SPEAKER_07 34:35

I yeah, I like the being given a blank canvas, but uh a blank canvas that's colourful, that that that has colours within it you can tap into that you can feed off, or you can absolutely go against um and and and bring in your own colours as well, and you've got license to do so. And so the music there, it it creates an ambience, it creates a mood that um allows you to go all in and to do whatever you feel like doing over the top of it, because you can either go with it and and and sort of like uh uh accompany it, or you can counterpoint it and completely sort of go against it. Um you can blissfully ignore it, um, or you can can absolutely go all in with it and and immerse yourself in it. And I like having that freedom. And the difficult thing with something with a really strong beat is that um there are conventions suddenly in place when there's a beat, especially if it's a four or four beat, you know, sort of like you know, the you're either going with the beat or you're a bit off, actually. And it's like, no, I I meant to be off, and then suddenly you have to justify that, whereas this you don't have to justify anything, kind of like this. You can do anything, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

Oh, that is such an interesting and like different way of thinking to what I'm uh more practiced in now. I know you did bits of that, but I think you did more. You need both, you need both, yeah. You know, sort of you know, it's just a different way of thinking and moving and just letting your body move just how it wants. Very freestyle as in experimental, freestyle-based, totally, yeah. Ways of movement rather than oh, I need to do a pirouette here. And I think that it's just a different way of thinking and just allowing your body to move.

SPEAKER_07 36:15

But I I I think I think it's very hard not to feel lost doing that unless you've done the other one as well. You know, I think you've got to know how to hit your beat, hit your marks, um, sort of be really tight, tight, tight. Push the beat, don't push the beat, hang behind the beat, be on the beat, really sort of you know, nail it. Um and you've got to know how to do that in order to play with it. You've got, you know, in order to play with it well, you don't have to. You could inadvertently play with it brilliantly, but but I think it helps.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Yeah. Do you feel like your music background helped with that?

SPEAKER_07 36:48

Totally. I I I think I think um I I love I'm very grateful that that it was ex it was experimental, and so they encompassed everything, including, you know, jazz, the push and the pull. It's not just being on the beat and are you right or wrong? It's like how I know what's right, I know what's wrong. Now, how can I mess with that? How can I suffer that? And I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Yeah, definitely. Slightly different question here, still sticking with styles. Do you think now from your work now, are there any styles which incur slightly more injuries?

unknown 37:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

Great, next question.

SPEAKER_06 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 37:29

Um it's probably unfair to say to to to name and shame anyone's style. Um uh because I think actually within styles, it goes the style thing is is the big thing, and and it's not just in dance, it's in all uh disciplines where there are different styles. It's the same in martial arts, and it's like what what what style is best, what style's worst. It's actually down to the practitioners. Yeah, it's there are certain types of practitioners, and they tend to gravitate to certain styles, um, you know, because because it suits their per personality, but there's certain certain personalities and certain practitioners within dance who are more likely to get injured and are more likely to not do well being injured and and and uh to not to to struggle to engage with the process of returning from injury. Um, and the type of people that we're talking about, uh, for anybody that you know might be able to relate to this, is uh I keep doing this aside, like like somebody else on radio. Um the sort of people we're talking about are the sort of people who push hard, the go hard and go home people. Yeah, uh um, because that's cool as long as you know how to switch that off. But if you can't switch it off, if you're driven, driven, driven, let's go, let's go, let's go, just do it. And the sort of people where who find it hard to even take the time to slow things down, pick that apart, take that move that movement that I can't do it, uh, that I can't do, can I break that down to component parts, practice them, piece it back together again, and and and and then and then sort of build it up slowly? Or the sort of person who'll just bang their head against the wall until they break through until they've got it. Yeah, they're more likely to get injured and to to for it to be a bad one because not necessarily because it's a bad injury, but because it will become a bad one because they won't stop when they're supposed to stop.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Yes. Wise advice stop when you're injured.

SPEAKER_07 39:27

You'll get back quicker if you stop when you're supposed to stop and do the stuff you're supposed to do to let your body heal. I promise you, you'll shave weeks, if not months, possibly years, off your injury uh rehabilitation time.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

It's so hard, though, isn't it? To just be like, oh no, I need to rest, I need to take a pause and fix this and not just push through it'll work its way out.

SPEAKER_07 39:51

It is hard, and there's a lot of misinformation out there as well, which really doesn't help. There's a lot of like have-a-go heroes touting themselves as gurus. And there's a lot of people who should know better as well. There's a lot of people who, you know, sort of who are medical professionals or or health professionals who say things like, Oh, well, you when you uh this hurts, and I was like, Oh, well, just don't do that. It's like, well, I need to do it for my job. Oh well.

SPEAKER_05 40:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:12

Well, now what you're supposed to do. Yeah, you know, sort of that's terrible advice.

SPEAKER_03 40:15

Yeah, very true. So go and see someone like you.

SPEAKER_07 40:19

Go and see somebody who works with dancers.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Yeah, good advice. Everyone listen to John.

SPEAKER_07 40:23

Yeah, definitely. Well, in this day and age, go to somebody, people are online now. It's much easier to see people now than it ever was in the past. So, yeah, find somebody online, drop them a DM and ask the questions.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

Perfect. Great advice. Next section is a quick fire round. Okay. No song attached to this. We haven't prepped you on this. It's a this or that question. Okay. So the first answer that comes to your mind I've got about six. Right then. Okay, do you want to go first?

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yep. Martial arts or dancing?

SPEAKER_07 40:57

Martial arts now.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

Oh, interesting. Swan Lake or the Nutcracker.

SPEAKER_07 41:02

Swan Lake.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

Lecture or practical?

SPEAKER_07 41:06

Oh, practical.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

70s disco or 80s bops.

SPEAKER_07 41:11

80s bops.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

Morning mobility or evening stretch?

SPEAKER_07 41:15

Morning mobility.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Interesting. Personal trainer or sports massage therapist. Hard one to end with.

SPEAKER_07 41:24

Sports massage therapist.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

And last question: if your life was a dance movie, what would the title be? Anything you like. Have a think about that.

SPEAKER_07 41:35

That would be the beginning of it. Sorry, I'm late.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

No, yours could be the sequel. I could be the sequel.

SPEAKER_07 41:44

That's actually what I want on my gravestone. Sorry, I'm late.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Oh, that sunball so brilliant at the same time. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Right, let's get brilliant.

SPEAKER_07 41:53

It has a chance of making people who knew me actually laugh.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Absolutely. Yeah, lighten it a bit a little bit. Um, so you said martial arts now.

SPEAKER_07 42:00

Yeah. Yeah. Now, now more than um, I think it's because uh um dance has become more of a minefield um because there's so many dance styles out there and so many people sort of doing certain things, so many things there's so many um so many things uh there's so many associations with dance now. Um and and with martial arts too, to to to be fair. Um, but I've found that um the framework of what I Tai Chi, which I do now because because old, um, you know, um uh that that that's what no, but I am uh so it's fine. I'm I'm okay, I'm okay. It's fine it's fine, it's fine. Have I mentioned it too much? I'm okay, I'm okay. It's fine, I'm okay, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 42:42

Oh no, it's fine. Um no the uh but yeah, so so using the framework of it is is a nice structure to have. Yeah. Because if you've got a structure, even if you decide that you don't need a structure today, you can throw the structure out of the window. Whereas if you come in without a structure and you suddenly find that you need something a bit more structured, you're a bit stuffed. Yeah. So you can always go back to that and have that.

SPEAKER_03 43:07

Yeah, yeah. That's right, yeah. Definitely. Uh Swan Lake over the nutcracker. Well We'll go on to that in a minute. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:16

Yeah, yeah, because I've I've got I've got a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Swan lake special to be, let's put it that way. Yeah, yeah. Um lectural practical, you went practical.

SPEAKER_07 43:24

I went practical because uh over the years, and this goes back to what I was saying in the intro, like uh I realized that actually I struggled with things for a reason. I just thought everybody was struggling with certain things. And um, but yeah, um when I finished um working at Kingston Uni, um, where where we met, um I hope you don't mind me saying that a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

No, no, I've said it before. Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_07 43:47

Yeah, my my the the the summer that I was leaving, I discovered I was dyslexic. Um and this is this is after 12 years in academia at the at the ripe old age of 43. And I was like, Oh now. Oh now would have helped me. Oh right. Yeah, that would have really helped before, you know, sort of uh and and uh and and uh and and so uh and now it's sort of uh I'm in the process of of being sort of uh um diagnosed with uh ADHD as well. Also would have would have would have helped before, you know. Um so really there's a reason I always gravitated to more practical things, even though I was fiercely academic because um I I I wanted to exercise it and I was always told to exercise it and I wanted to to be taken seriously by other people, so I I I wanted to, you know, so I can do it, and it but it took more work and I'm embracing the easier life because actually that's just who I am now and and I'm I'm like 50 now. I don't need to work that hard for other people or for myself, frankly. So so practical.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

Take the nice row.

SPEAKER_07 44:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Embrace embrace who and what you are, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:54

Yes, also great advice. Embrace who and what you are. Thanks. Love it. 80s bops, you went. That was a race. 80s bops.

SPEAKER_07 45:01

Yeah, I I I I remember the 80s, you know. I I I I wasn't really old enough to remember the 70s.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

No, we weren't implying that you were, by the way.

SPEAKER_07 45:10

No, but we were implying that you were. Yeah, I was there. But the 80s was, yeah. Yeah, the 80s. I remember the 80s and I remember it fondly. Um, you know, it wasn't perfect. You know, it's it's very glamorized nowadays with all the 80s revival stuff and the retro stuff, but yeah, there was a lot of stuff that came with it. But but yeah, but the 80s was my my thing.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

Morning mobility. Yeah I'm an evening stretch girl, but tell us why morning mobility is yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:36

I've reached a point in my life where things don't work in the morning because you wake up in the morning and you're kind of like, right, the toilet's over there. How am I gonna get there? No, yeah. So is this a visual representation of you? Yeah, yeah, that that's me. That's me, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

Visual watches is on in the morning, crawling to the bottom.

SPEAKER_07 45:53

I want to qualify this. I tried to get the hands to reach the lower back, but they wouldn't reach, I wouldn't stay there. They kept pinging back. So now that he's holding his bum.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

But we we know what you're doing there. Yeah, you've got a bit of an ache on the way to toilet in the morning.

SPEAKER_07 46:09

That that is me, shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, you know, as I'm waiting for my feet to return to function. Um, bit of a mobility. But also, um there's a lot of people who stretch unnecessarily. Um, and you're body aware, you're both body aware, so you'll know the difference, and you know what the difference is between good pain and not good pain and all that sort of stuff, because you know, through bitter experience, you've learned it, right? Um not everybody knows that.

SPEAKER_05 46:36

Yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_07 46:37

I've not thought for it. So when you start working with normal people, non dances, yeah. Um uh and you tell them to stretch, um, how much is too much? They don't know.

SPEAKER_05 46:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 46:50

Whereas if you give them mobility movements, they're more like exercises. And when you're doing the exercises, you go a bit further each time you rep it out, and then when you'll get to a point where you naturally reach your full mobility, you as in the end range, um, in terms of range of motion, so where you don't go a bit further. So, so you you're you're you'll pump you'll get into a lungy sort of like position with your back knee down, and then you'll you'll shift your front knee forwards and backwards, and then you'll go a bit further, and then you'll go a bit further, and you get to a point where you can't go any further, and you're done. There's a marker there. So, for for if I have to choose between dishing out mobility or dishing out stretching mobility, because you find your natural limitations quicker and it's functional. You I couldn't move there, and now I can done. They don't need more than that, yeah, and it just complicates things when you try and give them more.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

Yeah, so yeah. Oh, might try some tomorrow morning. We might need it after sleeping in this caravan. Yeah, maybe, yeah. We're gonna walk it out. That's gonna be us tomorrow.

SPEAKER_07 47:50

Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be raining, so so you know, I don't want to juice soon.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

Fingers crossed. Right, we've had the heat, we do not need the rain as well as it's a good thing. That's like a nice sound. Yeah, do with a nice little rain shower now. But anyway, one more uh personal trainer or sports massage, sports massage therapist. That's a tongue twister, that one. Yeah, it's a tongue twist.

SPEAKER_07 48:11

Yeah, I I I paused on this one and um full transparency, I I was I was genuinely thinking who has the better knowledge, and a sports massage therapist will have better uh musculoskeletal knowledge than a personal trainer. You have you have to, you have to. Even then, depending on the level that you've trained to, it's still not quite enough for you to be fully effective with depending on the people that you see. Both personal trainers and sports massage therapists, and I can say this with a fair degree of of uh authority because I'm both. Um uh anybody who's uh working in those professions, um, you will know that you find people who come up and you can't figure out what to do with them. No matter all the stuff, how brushed up you are and the stuff you know, you're like, what do I do with this person? I don't know. They can't do this, they can't do it. What do I do now? They they want to do this exercise, but I can't get them to do the exercise because they hurt here, they haven't got range of motion here, they they've got their weirdo thing, and I don't understand. Um it's not making sense according to the book. Yeah, and uh you do figure that out if you take it further, but it's more structured with massage therapists, whereas with personal trainers, it's kind of left to down to luck and which CPD courses you end up taking next. Um and um there is a gym culture to contend with that the personal trainers have to contend with, and the sports massage therapists don't have to contend with that. The gym culture is like push through, you know, load it, progressive overload, go, go, go, push harder, you know, add more weight to it, you know, like get rid of the pad, squat properly, uh, you know, sort of all that sort of stuff. And um, and there there is gym bro science involved, and there's less of that in sports massage, so it's not about the practitioners uh the the the practices being necessarily better, it's just that the massage therapists have an advantage.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

My favorite section, don't be moody, shake your booty um we do a little bit of a blooper reel and a little bit of a highlight reel, so we don't stay on the blooper too much. But is there something you found hard in the industry or you've struggled with?

SPEAKER_07 50:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so uh is this tied to this track?

SPEAKER_03 50:28

Or is this still just I presume that's yeah, the next question is the peak of your career. So I presume that is for more of the peak of this.

SPEAKER_07 50:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so uh something I struggle with in my career, and I hope this one is useful to anybody who's out there dancing or is about to dance. Um it's identity. Um, and I was gonna save speak at the end for you know, but but I think we could speak it about it now because it kind of goes with it. Because I struggled with the background that I had and coming to dance late. I I did the late starter thing of trying to be better, I uh you know, trying to be the best one in the room to kind of compensate for being the worst one in the room, if that makes any sense. So I was the worst one at ballet, so I hit the ballet hard. Um, I was I was I was the the the the worst dancer in the classroom, so I paid more attention and I listened better than everybody in the in the class, you know. Sort of everybody else was was kind of saying, Oh, it's not cool to do, you know, too much and don't don't work too hard, so I pushed it, um, you know, sort of uh and um and so that's fine when you're training, but when you become a professional, that's not cool because a tryhard is is a problem as an artist. You can't be authentically artistic at a tryhard, um, because being authentic to yourself means relaxing into who and what you are, and if you're pushing it, trying to be something else or someone else and trying to be the best one in the room at that, um that's not gonna work. And and the thing that I struggled most with throughout my whole dance career actually was when I'm if I'm really honest about it, I was actually doing my best impression of being a dancer rather than just being a dancer.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

Oh interesting, yeah. And you need to stop that be you be you as a dancer, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:27

The best you can be by your own measures, not everybody else's measures. Choose the measures that that are meaningful to you, be they technical or artistic. Um you know, if you want to go with how many turns you do, sure. If you want to, you know, whatever. But find a measure of success. Know what that measure of success is, and then um and then uh and then go with that and be the best version of you that you can be, using that as your bar. Um don't try and be someone else, because not only will you never be as good as somebody else at being them, but you'll also artistically always be copying somebody. And that's never your voice. It's never your voice. And people always talk about how how do I find my voice? You've got it, but you've just got to let yourself speak it.

SPEAKER_03 53:19

This words of inspiration, John.

SPEAKER_07 53:22

I hope so. Because you know, I needed somebody to say that to me. Oh, but I don't know if I would have been ready to hear it. Yeah, it comes with it comes with being ready to hear it.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that was really good. That was really good. Um peak of your career. Sorry, I'm just like, wow, I don't know if it's the heat.

SPEAKER_04 53:42

I'm like, that was really taking me to a place.

SPEAKER_03 53:46

I'm like, wow. So the peak. The peak of your career. Is this the song? Right, we've got to pause this one. Yeah. This one, like the finale. Oh, this one's what I was trying to sing. I said, I think you're singing Harry Potter.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

No, I'm not, I'm not. It is Harry Potterish, to be fair. It's quite a bit. I was trying to sing it. I could see why she brought doing the Harry Potter thing in the middle. It wasn't.

SPEAKER_07 54:18

It's not, it's not a slur in your singing. It's just if they do still sound quite similar. I'm sure you're a perfectly good singer.

SPEAKER_03 54:23

She's a really good thing. So this is the peak of your career? Yeah. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_07 54:31

I th I for me it was. Um, I think in terms of measures, it was the the biggest show that I did. Um, I I did lots of smaller companies and sort of, you know, uh and I was freelancing throughout. And then this was my first world tour. Uh, it was Matthew Bourne Swan Lake. Um, and uh I was and still am, as far as I know, the biggest signet they've ever had on the show because I'm not signet sized. The other guys were like down here.

SPEAKER_05 54:56

No, really.

SPEAKER_07 54:57

And because I was stocky and and a bit muscular, they thought I looked short on stage or whatever it was, and they made me a signet too. And they probably realized they'd made a mistake when they stood me next to everybody else. But by then it was too late, you know. I had the job. Um, so uh yeah, but uh uh that was um that was an amazing job to do because it opened lots of doors, it led on to lots of other opportunities, and um uh, you know, there was recognition. There was for the first time you you you have fans, and it's like like you go to Japan and it's like Beatlemania, you know, people are like chanting. And it it after a while you realize, you know, you're still young enough not to realize at the time, but after a while you realize it's not for you, it's for for the persona that you're portraying on stage and it's the show. It's one like in your the swans, and it's like wow. Um and some of the people in in in the cast, you know, they had hardcore fans because they'd done several tours, and you know, they had like hardcore fans, but um, you know, but it it was crazy and it does go to your head. Uh it really does go to your head, you know. When people are waiting for you on street corners all night, and then you get mobbed every time you go outside. It goes to your head.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

Yeah, it goes to your head. And you'll find sitting up for a while.

SPEAKER_07 56:11

I was still getting fan mail when I was uh lecturing at Kingston and um Jason, uh who was uh head of department, um, so uh the the great Jason Piper for anybody uh who's interested and wants to look him up. He's easier to look up than me because my name's John Chu, so now all you see is John M. Chu, the director.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

So I'm just like I thought that was you the first time. I was like, is he gone into directing? Yeah, can you imagine?

SPEAKER_07 56:32

Yeah, doing all right now, thank you. Yeah, uh no, yeah. So so Jason was still getting fan mail then as well. Uh he had fans turning up at the uni. I don't know if you knew that. No, I knew about Swan Lake and that you two were involved with that, but I think he still had fans flying in and turning up at the uni trying to find him, and like I I had to protect him and sort of pretend that he'd gone out and jump with his martial arts still. Useless, useless, do you know what I mean? Sort of you know, so but yeah, so it was it was it was a thing. It's crazy. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 57:05

So um, how did you get that role?

SPEAKER_07 57:07

Um get that job. I was I was lucky. Uh I I was lucky, uh, a bunch of us that that I was I was lucky enough to be even doing my best impression of a dancer, I was I was lucky enough to be in with the crowd of people that get all the jobs. You know, there's a hardcore crowd of people that get all the gigs, you know, and you and when you do all the jobs, you see the familiar faces and hey, how you doing? Yeah, yeah. And there was a bunch of people that I was with, uh, so Lise Michael, Camelyn Hasakta, uh um uh Ruth Moss, uh um who else was there? Uh uh Fred Gehrig, bunch of people. Um the uh uh we um the the people I haven't named are gonna kill me now.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

Um so uh so anyway, so so we it was the same old faces doing gig after gig after gig.

SPEAKER_07 58:00

And then the Swan Lake audition came up, and a bunch of them, uh um Damien Damien Sturk, uh he was he he he'd been in in doing Swan Lake forever, and he was he was um in in uh the gig that I was doing at the time. And so he was like, Oh, Swan Lake's coming up, go do it. And um, and so we we all went for it, and um, and it was me and uh Cam. And I hope Cam, I hope you'll forgive me for uh saying this, a bit of insider gosse. Um, because you don't talk about these things publicly, but but but we both went for the job, and Cam is a significantly better dancer than me. He used to dance with uh Random, Wayne McGregor, like you, Richard Austin, you name it, he's danced with him. He was the most beautiful dancer, and I was just a jobbing dancer. I I I was kind of like in good shape, so so I looked apart and and I could move all right, and I was good enough to hang out with those guys, but I was always the worst dancer in the room. I was okay with that because we were being paid, you know, so it's fine. Um so you know, uh, and and you know, gig after gig, and yeah, it's fine. So um, so you know, I had years of I was very lucky, I was years of consistent work with almost no gaps because because you know it was that crowd. Um so we went for the went for the job, and I think they were just looking for someone who was hot girl fit because because they picked me instead of Cam. And it was it it was quite upsetting for Cam because everybody knew he was better than me. And and and you know, and and uh we knew it, I knew it, and uh, I got the gig. And the only thing I could think of was that I was looking quite buff at the time. That was that was it's a topless, it's a topless gig, Swanland.

SPEAKER_02 59:30

There we go.

SPEAKER_07 59:31

You know, you need eye candy and signets are down the front. So they put me uh you know up front and centre, um, and also uh sorry to say it, um equal opportunities. They needed an Asian in the cast, so it was genuinely between me and Cam. Um so uh um they they only needed one, otherwise they totally would have picked pick Cam. And and and and the thing is Cam was in great shape too, so I don't know what happened there. I'm I'm I'm just assuming, but it definitely wasn't because I was a better doctor.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:01

It might have been incredible, exactly what no tried to boost you up the game.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:07

As a working professional, you will know that it's almost never the best person in the room who gets the gig for it's what they're looking for, and it's the person who's still standing by the end of the auditions, and it's usually the person who took direction best. It's usually the person who actually listened when they gave you a note, you took it, rather than trying to show off how good you can do stuff and how high your leg goes and stuff. So I was that guy, I wasn't the best in the room, but I took direction and I did my best to do the job. Yeah, so I was revival. You're like good at that. But yeah, so that was that was it. But yeah, so it's one like it was it was one of another one of those gigs we did. That that bit was right at the end, um, and it was near the end of the show, and it was another one of those shows where it's it's a big show, and you're thinking, right, I'm doing this, the the money's good, um, the the experience is amazing. I'm with a cast of 40 people. This is this is phenomenal. Um, but every night by this point, the whole cast is in tears. Uh, and you I don't know if you can see it, even now, I'm sure it's true. Um, you can't you can't probably can't see it because we're all moving and we're doing the swans and we're thrashing about and doing all this sort of stuff. But there's this point where you all run out at the end and you run out into two lines, you run across each other, and then one or two swans, it depends on the night and who remembers the cue. Um but one or two swans will do uh sort of a soda bask and then land in in a in a lunge, head back and lights out. And as you're doing that bit, as you're running out, I guarantee you that the vast majority of the cast, if not the entire cast, are crying floods as they're right every single time. It's that sort of a show, and um and again it was like before, it was that reminder of why you're doing it. It's like, yeah, here's my heart, have it. This is all I've got. If I don't dance tomorrow, I can give you everything. I've given you everything. I've I've done the best I can do, and I'm okay with that. Wow, and you've got to do that every night.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:11

Well, talking about advice, let's go on to not that you've haven't given us enough already. We've already we've had a good well, we're gonna push you for even more John. It's because I'm chatty, that's what it is. I love it. You've got one minute and one minute only. Right. The masterclass minute, 60 seconds. You've got enough. If you've got anything else to bring, any advice for aspiring professionals, people coming up in the industry. Okay. 60 seconds. Right. John choose, master class minute, go.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:42

Okay, so uh I was given some advice in the early on in my career, uh, and I thought it was really good advice. And and and this is advice to trust your gut. Um, trust your gut and look at the evidence because the advice was um you've got to know yourself who you are, you've got to know who you are on stage, and you've got to know who you are to other people, uh, and they're not the same thing. And I thought that mind-blowing, that's that's amazing advice. It was terrible advice. It was uh the the the the reason it's terrible advice is because now you're trying to be something for other people. Don't do that, be something for yourself. Uh if there's one thing that you take home from this, and I've tried to feed it into to to this whole conversation. Be yourself, don't do things for other people because now you're trying to adapt yourself to other people. Not only is it tiring, it means you're inconsistent and you're never fully authentic. Be yourself, be the best version of yourself that you can be, judging by your own standards, not other people's. And people, the people that love you will love you, and the people that don't love you, doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

Couldn't have been more perfect if you tried. Deserves a clap. John, that was incredible device. Advice, device, advice. Incredible advice. Incredible device, advice. Incredible advice.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:56

Incredible device.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:56

That was amazing. Beat you. I love that. Um, your song is this one that inspires you, or you hope inspires the next generation?

SPEAKER_06 1:04:05

I think this a bit of both. Bit of both.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:08

Um slowly. From once.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:14

Yeah, from once, the movie. Soundtrack.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

She's interested. She's interested in the show. No, I was like, I feel like I thought I'd knew it, but then I don't get it.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:27

If you haven't seen the movie, you've got to see the movie. It's a real budget movie, but it's one of those budget movies that really captured the moment, it really captured the zeitgeist. And um, I I my my wife is German, and I didn't know what the word zeitgeist meant until we, you know, sort of music. I've been saying it and I didn't realise, but it captured the mood, the the vibe, the moment. It was, you know, effectively trending. Um, but yeah, so um, but yeah, so uh Once is one of those movies, and uh Glenn Hansard from The Frames is they use his songs in the movie, and he's the lead guy in it. So the music is real, so that all the actors performed it, they they actually sung it for real. You know, I love movies like that. They don't make movies like that very often.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:07

Um and um the thing that I like about it is uh when I was teaching at Kingston, I needed a more structured approach. You know, it's that thing when you realize that that free-flowing is cool, but uh, it was actually something that Jason did. Jason annoyingly got better results than me from the classes consistently, and I was like, why? How is he how are the students remembering his stuff and then mine are going, what was it again? I can't remember. And you know what it was? He gave it a name. He would do the random steps and he'd say, Right, okay, uh, you know, uh uh Scoochie Mescoochie or something like that. And then you go, Scooch, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That one. And then instant click in, oh yeah, I remember that. It's that. I was like, he just made that up. That's not a technical term. That's not a technical term at all. You know, sort of but and um, and so I I started doing it. I was like, oh god, it works. Um I was like, okay, right, so so what better then what's better is is is actually the comfort blanket of having a clock an exercise that everybody knows that that thing that that that you do and it feels like coming home and that was my the song that I chose because in it there there was enough time and space to feel what you were doing and to get inside yourself and so so you could explore you know sort of what were you doing with your legs you know chamber the legs of like you know and um and and sort of uh you know just simple tondus really slow and then and then it would speed up and things like that and and uh you know holding positions and then and then just change working with timing working with placement rather than worrying about what the what's the next step what's the next step yeah and uh that was it it became really popular um for that reason and and I don't know if I I I I don't know if I ever did it with you because I phased it out eventually. I don't think it wasn't appropriate to some of the modules I ended up teaching and it kept changing around. So I apologise. No don't worry but it's it's also old school enough for because again there's there's the the beat is there's a rhythm to it but it's not a beat it's a rhythm and the rhythm's like a heartbeat it it it it can vary a bit because there's a sense of feel yeah so it encourages you to feel and I think all it's all about the feel for me uh um uh in classical terms it'll be you know sort of uh rubato or or you know sort of uh uh uh you know with feel they never tell you what the feel is but but but but they generally mean sort of slow it down a bit or speed it up a bit and you know um but con rubato is is is is um uh you know with more feel and and and and when you say to people dance it with feeling or like really feel this you'll notice that most people haven't been taught how to do it so they have a default thing they do which isn't very that that's no good either and I'd encourage anybody who's dancing question that what do you do when somebody says dance with feel do I just do I just do I just elongé a bit do I do it a bit bigger do I do I make it a bit more lyrical or do it do it do I do a do I do a face that was a beautiful face thanks done it many times but but but but you know if that's if that's it arguably it's not feel because feeling shouldn't be the same every time you know you fall in love it's never the same twice you know sort of you you you you you you you have a pet and and you know you you for for whatever reason you you lose that pet and and and then you love that pet you lose the pet you get another pet it's not the same you can love the pet just as much if not more than you love the other pet's not the same um you know sort of you've you you can do the a dance routine um the the same the same dance routine every time it's not the same so why should your feel or the feelings you put into it be the same every time no it's gonna make you look like a robot which is exactly what you're trying not to look like so so so explore that give yourself license to feel outside of performance pressure so that you've got something to dig deep into when you're in a performance pressure environment oh yeah nice I'm gonna steal that conrobato conrobato yeah I like it I like it give it some more practice that one yeah you'll look it up now and find out that I was wrong at all with your nose John with your nose we get what you mean oh John you have been incredible and so inspirational and knew you would be anything else you want to mention um no I think I think I've talked your ears off actually but but I have to say I love this and thank I'm I'm thank you so much for for take for giving me a platform to talk about this stuff because I don't I guess I do have something to say because I don't talk about dance very often only when I'm talking with dancers and even then it's more about them and I don't really talk about me. Yeah um and when you're talking people with people who aren't from dance there's a limit to what you can say you know because they're not really going to get it not really interested and it's a bit geeky frankly you know uh but but we're into it so it's okay. We're so into it here yeah so thank you for this because you know I I fix people now this is you know this is it. Oh oh one thing actually if I may go for it okay um for anybody who uh has weirdo things going on with their bodies um something to think about um so uh at at Kingston what one thing we used to do pretty much in in in uh uh the first week of your arriving if you had me um I will have um asked for a show of hands as to how many people get dizzy when they stand up and almost always there's a full show of hands in the room and then everybody goes oh what you too you too because nobody realizes because nobody talks about it nobody realizes that they're not the only one that feels that everybody feels that and um and I used to think in fact I used to know um because it is a thing um that that was largely due to something called uh um exercise induced bradycardia so bradycardia low blood pressure exercise induced because actually you've got low blood blood pressure because you're fit um not in spite of being fit so getting fitter won't help with this actually getting fit is what gave you the low blood pressure in the first place and um have I got time to talk about this yes go is that right okay oh thanks um so sweating now must must be must be important yeah um so for those of you that get dizzy when you stand up importantly not when you're exercising when you're exercising when you're dancing you're fine and then when you're just sitting around the house you get up too quickly and oh ooh you know that um so that is um because your blood vessels your veins your capillaries dilated they got wider um so that when you're pushing it your heart finds it easier to pump blood to the muscles that need it because because the the the bigger the tube it's it's it's like straws you know sort of like you know it's like a it's like a thin straw versus like a uh a bubble tea straw you can get a lot more through the bubble tea straw quickly same thing so your body adapts to that over time if it feels that your body is constantly needing that oxygenated blood and you need to just move and dance is really start stoppy you talk a bit you go again you you you assess you have some notes and you go again you you catch your breath you go again um and and so so uh so that happens a lot so your body gets really good at that um and then your heart does too if you've been doing it for long enough so the left ventricle of your heart expands so it can hold a greater volume of blood in so it can pump more blood out the left ventricle is the bit in the heart the the last chamber of the heart before it pushes the blood out of your your heart to the body. And so now per pump it's pumping a greater volume of blood down tubes that can handle a greater volume of blood. So now your heart rate doesn't have to go up so much for you to do stuff that is otherwise superhuman to other people. Cool when you're dancing when you're warmed up and you're good to go. Once you cool down however and your heart rate normalizes and the amount of blood that you're pumping around the body lessens the pressure in these val the the the tubes is now far lower than the average person's because actually your your normal persons would have smaller tubes so the pressure against the the walls is is that looks really wrong but but the the pressure against the the tubes um is is is significant whereas a bigger tube less pressure which is why you get these fluctuations in blood pressure and and and and you're more susceptible to to to to you know that that passing out or that dizziness. Yeah so well the the great Caroline Lofthouse Lofty shout out uh so um so we used to say uh it's getting hot now isn't it um so so we used to it's fine uh I like it um so but we used to say it's that so so just so you wouldn't worry about it many moons decades kilos later um uh I've realized it's not just that um because the number of people who are flexible as in not just long muscles but mobile joints bendy joints like hypermobile sort of double jointed if you're in a school playground the number of people in dance who are hypermobile or who have a degree of joint laxity huge so I think I'm gonna bastardize these stats now but I think that um uh for for for the general population of the of the of the world about 30% 30 something percent of of the the the the population of the world have some degree of joint laxity or hypermobility um and they may or may not know about it um in dance it jumps up to 90 something percent of people within dance have some sort of joint hyper so people how many times you see people with sway back knees you know sway back legs how many people can can go can go over splits how many people can can can go go past straight with their elbow do you know what I mean sort of you know all that sort of stuff how many people can can twist their spine further than average you know sort of how many you know all that sort of stuff um how many people have feet you know it's it's a thing the problem is that that if you're naturally like that it can get too much um so if you just have bendy bits that's cool you've just got to know how to manage those bits and make sure you don't go over your ankle um and we all know dancers uh who are beautifully spatially aware on stage and then when they cross the street they'll go over their ankle you know off stepping off the curb or they'll they'll they'll they'll you know what I mean like that someone of course you do exactly yeah yeah them they are prime candidates to have a think about what I'm about to say joint hypermobility if it's comprehensive it's not just about your joints it's um actual soft tissue laxity so it's actually a a difference in collagen fiber that's that's distributed throughout your body so that's not just your joints it's actually your skin it's uh it's it's it's actually sort of connective tissue sort of like a um sort of in in and around the uh the the the body oh hang on I've got one of these so much science I love it um yeah sorry about that uh it's tell me if it's too much okay um um so uh that means uh that that you can be more susceptible to all sorts of things um including uh um blood pressure um changes because you're more susceptible to blood pooling because even your veins and uh you know your blood vessels in general veins and capillaries etc are stretchy too and imagine a straw the straw analogy I was using before you've got thin straw you've got the bubble tea straw now imagine the straw is stretchy it's not going to work so well as a straw because it will pool a bit and then it might squirt up you know and stuff like that and so that's what happens with your veins and things so so sometimes uh you'll get people who who who whose uh extremities you'll get blood pooling in your lower legs and and and stuff like that and and then inconsistent blood pressure and they start feeling faint for no reason um they find it hard to predict their energy levels um that it can even affect their their their their responses to pain meds as well um so um if that sounds like it's you check out um HSD which is hyper hypermobility spectrum disorders and H uh EDS so I don't think for a moment there hypermobile Ellis Danoss syndrome um so uh just go for the acronyms and go on the NHS website um uh and this is this is my don't panic because it may not be you but just to be sure go go onto the uh NHS website and Google HSD or H E D S and they'll give you a rundown of those conditions and a list of symptoms at the bottom and and additional reading. Go for the symptoms and if you go that's me that's me that's me that's me that's me but go and speak to somebody who specializes in those conditions and get some advice on how to manage it because it could be that with a few simple management tools you could be doing a hundred percent better than you're currently doing because you're not fighting your body anymore. And because dance is so hard and you're fighting your body all the time everybody thinks the fight of your body is is real is normal and it is normal you're grinding all the more turnout go like push a bit harder jump a bit higher all that sort of stuff you're fighting your body all the time but some people are fighting even harder than they need to be without knowing it because they think everybody else is pushing that hard um oh and the other thing is final thing um if you do have uh hypermobility well not just joint laxity but hypermobility comprehensive um joint laxity that has a really really high correlation like 90 something percent correlation with increased levels of anxiety again something I wish people had told me so a lot of people in dance have anxiety you know and you know a lot of people get stage fright and all that sort of stuff and some people have made that had had that realization that that stage fright is on a biochemical level exactly the same biochemistry as excitement it's just that you've labeled it differently and so a lot of people who are a bit more anxious and have uh tend to be you know you could say glass half full glass glass half empty people but it's a similar thing it's a mindset thing um you know professional athletes you know sort of uh this is such a such a trope now but it's true professional athletes at the Olympics when you ask them you know this this this big pressure tomorrow's your day you've been training all year for it tomorrow's your race are you are you nervous? No I'm excited why it's the same thing it's the same feeling they interpret it a different differently they're framing it differently but if you're hypermobile you'll have a tendency to be a bit anxious as a default and there's a reason for it um and the reason is this just to reassure you that you're normal and there's nothing wrong with you it's because um you learned here we go just gonna dab my nose there we go right um so if you're hypermobile you will have learned at an early age that you can't hyperextend your knees or hyper extend your elbows or hyperextend your ankles because when you do and you're not paying attention it hurts you jar yourself you land wrong or you know sort of or or it it goes too far the other way and it and it leads to pain. And you've had it all your life so you learn from an early age that I need to take care not to do that. What does take care not to do that all day every day do put you on guard put you back yeah and so you're constantly on guard you're never fully relaxed ever which then it's not anxiety necessarily not in a clinical sense but it makes you more anxious because you're constantly worrying about this worrying about that and and it can lead to uh behavior that that errs on the side of being worried all the time being worried about this and it and then if if you're you know the rest is down to you your life your the the you know the triggers around you you may become a worrier um you may become a really anxious person or you may become somebody who you know so I'm fine really but I do get worried about this that and the other um you know um but it all comes down to your uh early management strategies that you adopted from young without necessarily thinking about it because you were too young to question it. I'd encourage you to question it because it doesn't have to be like that. If you now train yourself train to not hyperextend train that to be your new normal train with resistance train in different situations so that it becomes your thing. And now hyperextending feels I I get warning signs uh what you know sort of that doesn't feel right I don't like it anymore. Now you don't have to monitor it so closely you don't have to worry about it so closely you can trust yourself and then you can flow and then you can go. Because you we all love that moment in dance right well I used to and that's the thing I miss about dance when you quit dance that that's the one thing that sucks. That moment when you're flying when everything's working those rare moments when everything's working and and everything's working and you're just like oh oh this is great this is amazing and and usually something's not quite right something's grinding here I've got to think about push a bit harder there but sometimes you just fly it's very difficult to achieve that state and that's what we're all chasing. It's very difficult to achieve that state if you're constantly monitoring yourself actively half your mind is worrying about don't do this don't do that don't go there don't do the other and then part of your mind is also worrying about um being something that you're not yeah yeah yeah so in that sense I'm encouraging you to do the work to allow yourself because you can't force yourself to be yourself like you know if I force myself to be more John how am I going to do that? It's just gonna be weird. Yeah yeah but you've got to do the work in order to feel secure enough to allow yourself to be yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:27

Yes so do the work to end on I love it oh John full of inspiration I don't know about that of full of work inspiration yeah inspiration John oh thank you so much for coming on the podcast thank you for having me it's been it's been really nice everybody loves talking about themselves so you know that's that's it for this decade now so I'm gonna go back to talking about other people thank you so much for listening everyone oh guys what an inspirational human being no do you know what knowledgeable yeah inspirational and knowledgeable is oh yeah great I mean he was giving us his one minute of inspiration before the one minute I was like I'm not we have we're gonna have 20 minutes before I know I wanted to save it and I was like no it's so good it's such good advice and I just remember him from uni just like when I said about oh your shoulder and your knee like it's just like the knowledge of knowing like he just knew he taught me dance bodies which is why I always like remember him for that but it's just like the knowledge he had about the body but you can tell he's just got knowledge about everything like just loves dance as well but I really like when he was talking about like the feeling of dance and helping it come from within like lots of different avenues of it. Yeah very inspirational so hope you enjoyed it everywhere something a bit different yes and he's carrying on in London in the heat woo no we're loving it so thank you everyone and we'll see you next time bye