Ross K. Nichols - STV: 16

Marc sits down with Ross K. Nichols—local resident, author, and Old Testament scholar—for a fascinating conversation about the ancient world and the modern Middle East. Ross shares stories from his many study tours to Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, explaining what draws people to explore the lands of the Bible and how travel there often challenges common perceptions. Marc and Ross discuss history, faith, cultural connections, and the surprising hospitality of the region, offering listeners a glimpse into the places where biblical history unfolded.

Check out Ross K. Nichols' YouTube Channel!  [YouTube]

Transcript

Marc Charbonnet 0:00

Hello everyone, this is Marc Charbonnet and welcome to Steve the Ville. I have a wonderful guest today, a little different than what we've had before, because this man is an Old Testament scholar and he has chores that go to Israel. And I didn't even know this man. I met him through Steph, who handles our podcast, and I'm so delighted. He's also Toby's father. So he is the father of six children, and they live in the Felicianas, and I'm just so happy to have you here. Hi, Ross.

Ross K. Nichols 0:34

Marc, it is a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. And you just kind of gave my resume because uh I'm known as the dad of Seth and Toby and Zach and Ty and Callie and Emily. And uh I like that.

Marc Charbonnet 0:50

Well, I know three of your children, and they're all wonderful. Um so I'm very personally interested in the way you give tours. So you bring people to Israel.

Ross K. Nichols 1:02

I do.

Marc Charbonnet 1:03

How many people would go on a say you you mentioned you were going to do a trip to Egypt, Jordan, and Israel. Right. And it's a 23-day adventure. Beautiful. That sounds fantastic. What does something like that cost?

Ross K. Nichols 1:17

I think the price, I would have to look. We have a website, but the price tell us what your website is. It's the pro the website for the tour is tanaktours.com. Spell that. T-A-N-A-K-H-T-O-R-U-S.com. And you say, well, what is Tanakh Tours? So Tanakh is the Hebrew name for the Old Testament. And so, but the tours generally, just a ballpark. It's generally going to cost about 3,350. And so this time we're doing Egypt and Jordan, and you can package that with Israel, sort of an extension. Some people just choose to do the Israel tour. But it's fantastic. I hope you come with me.

Marc Charbonnet 2:04

I would love, well, maybe not this time, but I definitely want to. I've always Israel is someplace I've been interested in. Egypt, yes, too. Well, the whole Middle East, you know.

Ross K. Nichols 2:13

Yeah.

Marc Charbonnet 2:13

But relieve some worries. You know, when I lived in New York, it was so funny. People in New Orleans would say, oh, but it's so dangerous. And I would think, Chow, you walk down Napoleon Avenue. If you can walk down Napoleon Avenue, you can walk anywhere in Manhattan. And then I have a lot of Jewish clients in New York, and they were running over there like they were just going to the grocery store. And they didn't have concern. So tell me how that how that actually works, especially with the news being so.

Ross K. Nichols 2:44

It's a good point. It's a good point. And it is the single biggest factor that keeps a person who wants to go from actually traveling to the Middle East. I've been for nearly 20 times. I think it's a maybe this would be my 20th trip. And I've never had any problems in any way, but we're also pretty smart about it. Like you mentioned, New York. There are probably areas in New York that you might not want to go if you're not familiar. Same thing goes with the Middle East. I have friends that are Arab Christians. I have Palestinian friends. I have Jewish friends. And the Middle East is so great in a lot of ways that people just don't see because of the media. Now that's not to say that there aren't problems. And currently the situation in the Middle East is a little bit concerning. It's in a better place now than it was, obviously, in you know, in the throes of October 7th a couple of years ago. Things are good now, and we also stay in contact. We have security people on the ground. We know the right people. We stay in touch. Israel is totally safe. I've never had any problems. Same with Jordan. I love to go to Jordan and they love tourists. So that's one of the things I wish people knew more about was the fact that whether a person is Jewish or they're Muslim or they're Christian, they live in the Middle East, they're all there and they function together, but so much of the bad gets highlighted, you know, and that's really tragic because it hurts us.

Marc Charbonnet 4:23

So have you been to Petra?

Ross K. Nichols 4:25

I have been to Petra.

Marc Charbonnet 4:26

Is it just awesome?

Ross K. Nichols 4:27

Not only is it awesome, uh, you know, if you watch any good movies with Harrison Ford, that was one of the reasons I wanted to go. And I I have to tell you, I'm a little bit of a nerd. So I had this the theme song playing, you know, you got it. I didn't do it loud because I didn't want everybody to know, but I had to play it when I walked through the what they call the seek. It's breathtaking.

Marc Charbonnet 4:53

And does it just come upon it?

Ross K. Nichols 4:55

Oh, it's so beautiful. You walk through this long, it's the walls are higher than you can see, and then you come around a winding turn, and then there it is. And it's everything that you imagined, and you get to spend time there. And uh when we bring the tours there, you can obviously do a little bit extra. You can rent a donkey or a camel. Fantastic. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Marc Charbonnet 5:19

Now, are those tombs? What are those actually?

Ross K. Nichols 5:22

Those buildings there are different buildings in the area. The one that's so famous of the red rock, you know, that you see in Harrison Ford movie, that is considered to be a treasury. And so the Nabataean culture that was there, there's quite a bit on them that people might be interested in looking up. But there are tombs. There are various things that you see as you walk through, and it's a lot bigger than what you think because an entire culture lived there. So yeah, we have tombs, there are various different buildings, and they're all carved into the rock.

Marc Charbonnet 5:59

So those only facades.

Ross K. Nichols 6:01

They that's right. That you can go, well, you can't go in because they don't want tourists running in and out of them, but archaeology has it gone on and they've excavated everything, and they're they're just not open to the public. So you and I, when we visit, we get to look at the outside and take the cool pictures, and it's it's really fun. The first time I went there, I what I didn't know what to expect, other than I was I knew I would be excited to see what I had only seen on the screen. But um there are people there, the the uh Bedouin who lead the tour groups through. It's a fascinating culture, so it's fun.

Marc Charbonnet 6:43

That does sound so tell me, I people hate when you say favorites, but you've been 20 times. What is, in your opinion, just like a must-see situation?

Ross K. Nichols 6:54

Again, because it's my field, I prefer to go to the archaeology sites. No one can go to, first of all, let's say no one can really go to Israel or Jordan and not go to the Dead Sea. They have fantastic spas, and some people that's what they go for. They want to see the landscape, they want to experience the the Dead Sea, but for me, it's the archaeology. I prefer to go to biblical sites that are even currently being excavated. Biblical Shiloh, if you've your listeners have grown up in church, they probably say Shiloh.

Marc Charbonnet 7:32

Yes.

Ross K. Nichols 7:32

Um but Shiloh is fantastic. The Ark of the Covenant, the tabernacle, according to the biblical text, was there for 369 years. And the professor or the teacher who is leading the archaeology there is a friend of mine, Dr. Scott Stripling. And they found some really incredible things there. So I like Biblical Shiloh. Of course, Jerusalem, you know, you you have to go to Jerusalem, the old city, and while you're there, there are fantastic sites. We get, we bring people up on the Temple Mount where the temples in the biblical period and post-biblical period stood. And uh, so that's cool. You know, you get to see the famous dome of the rock. You can't go in if you're not Muslim, but they work it out, you know. They they really work it out.

Marc Charbonnet 8:25

You know, it's funny because of where it sits, it does not look as large as it probably is.

Ross K. Nichols 8:30

It's pretty large, yeah. And once you get up there, the temple mount itself is massive, and you don't expect that. I I think a lot of people we see it on the news.

Marc Charbonnet 8:43

Yeah, and the perspective is off because of that. That's right.

Ross K. Nichols 8:46

It's huge. So that's one of the reasons that I like to go. Even the Sea of Galilee. I think growing up as a child in church and you hear the stories in Sunday school about uh Jesus would get on a boat with his disciples, and they would go from this place to that place, and you think it's gotta take, you know, how long would it take when you get on the Sea of Galilee, and we take people on not only on the Sea of Galilee, but we do a sunset cruise on a boat, you get on a boat, the whole tour gets on together, and you can go from literally from town to town. You know, you can go from Capernaum to Tiberius, and it there's something about that, Marc, that really I as I like to say, it brings the Bible to life. It's it comes off the page, or you might say it puts you in the page. So either way, I I guess it's hard to pick a favorite, but if I had to sort of generalize, it's the feet on the ground seeing the places where these events took place. That's what really gets me.

Marc Charbonnet 9:56

Let me ask you something, and a lot of people probably don't even know this, they aren't aware of it, but there was just by happenstance an ancient tomb with estuaries, isn't that what they're called? Estuaries, yeah, yeah. Um and it's like Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Andrew. And it's caused quite an uproar, I believe. How long has that been around? Like seven or eight years?

Ross K. Nichols 10:21

I tell you, it was discovered in the 80s. What you're talking about is the Talpiote tomb. The Talpiote tomb happens to be a tomb that was discovered by chance. And as a lot of archaeology, it's like under a sidewalk, right? Yeah, in a neighborhood, actually. And what we find is that not just that tomb, but other tombs and other archaeological discoveries are found when people are building roads or digging the basin. You get ready to build an apartment complex. So, if I'm not mistaken, the Taupio tomb was in 1980 during one of these projects, and and this tomb was discovered. As soon as a tomb is discovered, all construction has to stop. You imagine that Jerusalem and the surrounding areas, it's built on and built on and built all these layers of uh habitation, you're gonna find stuff like this. So, but you're right about the names. Now, what's fascinating about the familiarity of the names, if you only had a Mary, if you only had a uh Josie, you know, just a few different names, you might say, Well, those are common names, you know, but it's the cluster of the names which makes people really say, wow.

Marc Charbonnet 11:50

And then there was an estuary found outside that they have now just pretty much ruled that it was once there and it was somebody's yeah, and it was claimed to be, and I think it was at auction.

Ross K. Nichols 12:04

Um You you've done some research here, Marc.

Marc Charbonnet 12:07

I I read all sorts of things.

Ross K. Nichols 12:08

I tell you that it's interesting because you several years ago there was a an ossuary, and but and if your listeners don't know what an ossuary is, let me just tell them because they may.

Marc Charbonnet 12:20

Explain that because that's interesting.

Ross K. Nichols 12:21

The there's a very narrow window, burial practices change over time and among different people. The Jewish people used the ossuary for a very tight window, uh, if I'm not mistaken, say uh no more than a hundred BC to 70 AD. And the way it works is if you pass away, your body would be placed in a tomb and it would go through the normal process of decomposition. And then the family would go back into the tomb after a certain period of time when it was just bones. Then they would take those bones and put them in a limestone box called an ossuary. And these boxes, so people can imagine, it's wide enough to accommodate the average size human skull and long enough to accommodate the longest bone in your leg. And so the bones would be broken up and placed into this ossuary, a lid would be placed on it, and then you slide that on a shelf. And so uh that's when you mentioned ossuary, it just hit me, hey, Marc knows this, but maybe others don't. But this particular tomb you're talking about, the names really gave people pause because they said, Whoa, wait a minute, what tomb is this? And then there have been theories. Another ossuary showed up on the antiquities market that seemed to suggest that it was James, the brother of Jesus. And a lot of Christians, particularly among Catholics, might not know that Jesus had a brother.

Marc Charbonnet 14:07

Yeah.

Ross K. Nichols 14:07

But, you know, he actually had several brothers, as the Gospel of Mark chapter six tells us. But James, of biblical James fame.

Marc Charbonnet 14:15

That's St. James.

Ross K. Nichols 14:17

Yeah, that's right. People confuse their Jameses, if that's the right way to make it plural. But uh, but this particular box, there was a big hullabaloo. You know what this is, where people argue and debate, well, it's not that James. And the tomb couldn't possibly be that Jesus, you know, that Jesus family. But the evidence seems to make people say, hey, wait a minute. My good friend Dr. James Tabor has written um a couple of books on this. One is called The Jesus Discovery. And uh maybe some of your listeners will.

Marc Charbonnet 14:53

It's really fascinating. It kind of it's a it's a tight rope because it's so fascinating, but at the same end of the stick, it kind of shatters your faith sometimes. Not your faith, but yeah, you question things.

Ross K. Nichols 15:07

Yeah. And I know not everyone would agree with this, but I I like things that challenge my presuppositions and my assumptions going in. I'm an investigator, I'm a historian at heart. And even when my faith is challenged, and it has been, you can imagine, over 40 years of doing this work, you know, I come across things that that really make me.

Marc Charbonnet 15:35

And you're a Southern Baptist.

Ross K. Nichols 15:36

I grew up Southern Baptist. Um I I'm not really a Baptist anymore. I don't think a lot of my Baptist, I have Baptist friends that are very faithful and they adhere to the Baptist doctrine. Like I said, I'm more of a historian now. Doesn't mean that I don't have faith, but I like to say that my faith has been informed over a 40-year journey. So I've been exposed to various other faiths. Judaism, um, I've read the Quran, I've studied, not not studied it, but I've read it just to become familiar. Of course, I spend most of my time in the biblical text with a focus on the Hebrew Bible. So that's kind of my if I I don't know that I have a specialty, but if I had to claim one, it would be the uh, excuse me, the the Hebrew Bible. So that's that's where my main field is. I love the Dead Sea Scrolls. By the way, now that I just said Dead Sea Scrolls, probably if I had to pick a favorite, it's an old question you ask. It might be Qumran. Qumran is to me Is that a city or an area? It's the name of a site, Kirbet Qumran. Qumran is located on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea. And in the winter of 1946 or 47, Bedouin Shepherds, as the story goes, uh, different versions, either chasing a goat that had wandered off, or maybe throwing rocks trying to get it in the hole in the cave that they saw. They hear a crash. A clink. Yeah. Well, they thought, well, maybe there's treasure in those hills. So they climb, two of the one of the boys goes the next day and climbs into the cave, and there he finds ten jars. In one of the jars, turns out to be, he didn't know what he had found, but it turns out there were ancient manuscripts that had been preserved. We now know that those manuscripts were um 2,000 plus years old. So I love Coom Run. I like ancient scrolls, that's what I think.

Marc Charbonnet 17:52

Isn't there discrepancies? Like the was that Andrew or was it James who was keeping those scrolls, I think?

Ross K. Nichols 18:02

Well, we don't know the exact keeper. We do know that the community, uh, a lot of people associate the ones who some say they produce the scrolls, some say they just maintain them at the location. But the scrolls themselves, it when it comes to discrepancies, and this gets in pretty deep, but I love to look at what we call textual criticism. So I grew up Southern Baptist. So the Southern Baptist, I grew up with a King James Bible. In fact, you that's what you use. You don't use this version or that version. This is the authorized version. Well, I just assumed that the Hebrew of the Old Testament and the Greek of the New Testament could be traced back to the whoever wrote it. Isaiah wrote Isaiah, and we just have inherited that. But since, particularly the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the study of other ancient translations, we do have variations. Like my Hebrew Bible that I carry around, um it is preserving a text that was produced in the year 1009 A.D. Well, that's a long time from the events that it describes. The thought that a lot of fundamentalists have is that if you find me an ancient text, it will match this precisely. And that's just not necessarily the case. Sometimes the differences are minor, but in other cases they there are some significant changes. Isaiah, the prophet Isaiah, 66 chapters in that book, it was discovered, a copy of the complete Isaiah was discovered in Cave 1.

Marc Charbonnet 19:52

I didn't know that. That's interesting.

Ross K. Nichols 19:54

And there are differences. Some of the differences are what we call orthographic spelling differences. Like, have you ever seen a modern business and it might say ye old barber shop? Well, we don't talk like that. But the message is you know, you know what it means. Some of the things are just spelling differences and some are textual variants. So but I like cumran. So if you ask me again, I'll say probably cumran.

Marc Charbonnet 20:21

Have you ever seen the uh fragment? It's a ankle and it has a nail through it, and it is the only with the thousands of crucifixions, the Romans love to crucify. And they would let the bodies rot and the dogs would eat them. So there wasn't a whole lot left of anything. But there's this one ankle with a nail in it.

Ross K. Nichols 20:47

That's right.

Marc Charbonnet 20:47

Where is that?

Ross K. Nichols 20:48

You know, I don't know exactly where the where it is. I don't know if it's in the Israel Museum. I am familiar with this though. And it's interesting because, especially for people who are familiar with parts of faith. For instance, I think I grew up thinking that Jesus was the only, he and the other two criminals that were crucified with him were the only crucified. But you just hit something a lot of people don't know. The Roman method of crucifixion, we have we know from Josephus and other early sources that thousands were crucified and they were placed in a prominent position so that you kind of warn the public if you mess up, this could be your absent.

Marc Charbonnet 21:35

Just like in Tudor England, the head's on the spikes on the bridge. It's very brutal thing.

Ross K. Nichols 21:40

But yeah, this particular ankle bone, um, Dr. James Tabor, the man that I mentioned who wrote, not only has he written the book on the Jesus Discovery, but he's talked a lot about this as well on various podcasts. And it it is interesting. To look at this. In fact, that example from history gave us more than we knew about crucifixion before it was discovered. Because if you notice, a lot of what a crucifix might show Jesus, for instance, on the cross with the nail but on the top of the foot. But we now know because of that discovery that they would place the feet left and right on either side of the vertical stake, and they would nail them in through the ankle bone. This is gruesome. It is gruesome.

Marc Charbonnet 22:38

But it's because the foot had so many bones it wouldn't have supported the body.

Ross K. Nichols 22:41

And it would have just pulled through. Exactly.

Marc Charbonnet 22:43

Same with the hand and the wrist.

Ross K. Nichols 22:44

And it was another way to be cruel because you would imagine, I can't even hardly imagine, but a person would try because their weight is pulling them down and they're suffocating. Not only does it be. That's the cause of death, it's suffocation. That's right. So they would try, you can imagine trying to get the weight, and what do you every move you make is going to be more and more painful. But yeah, that's this is an example you just bring up of how archaeology sheds light on our understanding. A lot of times people are influenced, we develop certain ideas and mental pictures based on art. And a lot of times that's from the Renaissance period. Some of our great artists, and they make these beautiful works, and they're just not historically accurate. But when you get a discovery that shows up, then you're able to make some connections that you might not have known. Like what, oh wow, they and the it like you said, it still has the nail through it, and the nail is even bent over. And I don't know. Maybe some have done a lot of studies on it. I would assume that you know that would keep you from pulling it out. Horrible.

Marc Charbonnet 24:02

It is really something else.

Ross K. Nichols 24:04

And it was a common form of very common, much more common than people think.

Marc Charbonnet 24:10

Capital punishment. It was just that was it.

Ross K. Nichols 24:13

And and like we said, they they would do this in the public in the presence of and and by the way, a lot of things that I've read suggest that they were naked. They weren't, you know, like we we have a certain modesty that's demanded of our artist. And so they would paint them with various clothes. You know, no one sees a crucifix that, you know, like this. But yeah, it's pretty, pretty bad. And you can imagine at the time in the first century, Rome was not a good group, you know, in terms of every group has good and bad. I don't mean to characterize, but we know from Josephus and and from the New Testament that it was it was pretty bad. Ultimate demand of obedience and anything less than that is met with swift death. A lot of people would say that Jesus was killed because he opposed in some way by making certain claims, things that just weren't acceptable.

Marc Charbonnet 25:20

You know what I always thought? I thought he went to the temple and he pissed everybody off, and that's why he was used just dragged before the tribunal.

Ross K. Nichols 25:27

Yeah. He certainly had a way of of uh making people not love him, particularly in position of leadership. It it's so fascinating to me because when you study, for instance, my field is the Hebrew Bible, Jeremiah is probably my favorite prophet. And Jeremiah lived 40 years before the destruction of the first temple in 586 BC by the Babylonians. Jesus lived 40 years before the destruction of the second temple by Titus in the year 70 A.D. And they mirror one another. And both of them, Jeremiah and Jesus, ran into trouble with the temple for similar reasons. You know, Jeremiah says that the temple would be destroyed because God's people weren't behaving properly. Jesus said the same thing, not one stone will be left on another. In fact, Jesus even quotes Jeremiah. You can't make the temple institute uh the uh organization, the machine of the temple, the priest, they didn't take kindly to that. Now, just for clarity, they didn't actually kill Jesus, they had the Romans do it. But he made the wrong crowd mad and say that.

Marc Charbonnet 26:47

He certainly did. Um, and died for our salvation. Um so uh how many people are going to go on your upcoming trip and when is it?

Ross K. Nichols 27:00

I hope that all your listeners just line up and yeah, that's why I'm asking.

Marc Charbonnet 27:05

I think that this this man is so interesting, and uh it's uh it's it's really a pleasure to talk to you. I can't imagine what a tour with you would be like. It must be wonderful.

Ross K. Nichols 27:19

Well, just talking to you, I I can say I don't meet a lot of people who've done as much reading as you have. I'm impressed, no, really. But most of the tours we go for between 30 to 50. I'm not one of those that uh only wish I could feel more than one bus, but really it's intimate. You get you get a group of people, day one, you have let's say 40 people is is optimal. You load them on the bus. No one knows hardly anyone the first day, but over the course of the time where you Do you fly together? We people fly on their own. We've done it that way. What I find is that so many people, like you might say, well, I have delta miles, I don't want to reflect. So you just say, meet me in Jerusalem or meet me at Tel Aviv at at uh at Ben Gurion at the airport, and uh we'll get we'll pick you up there and we'll go from there. So what we do is we we generally bring, I'd say 30 to 40 is perfect, but if we had more, we could go up to 50. And uh in this case, just so people understand, some people might say, Well, I want to do Egypt, Jordan. I don't want to do Israel. Or they may say, I'd feel better just doing Israel. Maybe they've been to one or the other. So we have options. It's sort of a like a buffet. And um, so we're flying. Seth, I hope Seth will go with me. We'll fly into Cairo November the 4th, and what we'll do is we'll see all the cool stuff. We're even taking a Nile cruise. And once we take the Nile cruise, uh, you get to stop at various places. Of course, we'll see the pyramids, the beautiful new museum that they have in Cairo.

Marc Charbonnet 29:04

That's phenomenal. I haven't been there, but I've seen and read a lot about it.

Ross K. Nichols 29:07

Oh, I can't wait. Like I said, I've not been to Egypt, but then we fly from Cairo to Amman, and that tour, Egypt-Jordan, will start in Amman. We'll see, among other things, Petra. Uh, we'll obviously see the beautiful desert along the way and various other sites of interest, and then some will go home then, and then the other group will pick up in Israel. So people can, or like I said, they can fly into Israel and spend time with us there. But that's the goal. Now, right now, I think we're about halfway full. And again, people can look at the website and and say it again, the website. It's Tanakh Tours.

Marc Charbonnet 29:49

And how do you spell that?

Ross K. Nichols 29:50

T-A-N-A-K-H. Okay.com. And by the way, the itinerary's there. I should have had a printed copy so I could answer your questions better on the pricing. But um, but but to your point about the flights, it it works better. People because I I have some friends who say, well, I'm going to be in Europe, and you know, not everybody can do this, but some can, and they might want to go there first and then meet us in Jerusalem or wherever. So fun times. There are options.

Marc Charbonnet 30:24

And you all go at the perfect time.

Ross K. Nichols 30:27

We do. We do.

Marc Charbonnet 30:28

Which is in November? There are two good times in the tell everybody if they can't make this, they can know when to go.

Ross K. Nichols 30:35

That's right. And and some might want to go with their church, with their Baptist or Catholic or whoever. I just tell people if you've ever been interested in the Bible, go. I'd love you to go with me. But um, but it's it's usually around March, the first week of March. You back it up too much, like about this time of year, it's the rainy season and it's cold, a little bit cold. So you get into March. March is good, first couple of weeks, first few weeks. The summer, a lot of people think is too hot, but you'd be fine. Anyone who lives in Louisiana, I think, well, this is normal. What are you? And then uh, and then in the fall, usually I like to tell people you've got to break into November because if you're too early in October, you see a little bit of bad weather. And if you're too late, late November, plus you want to get home for Thanksgiving, right? So we try to time it from the first of November until right before Thanksgiving. So in this case, people will get home. If they did the whole tour with me, Marc, if you do the whole tour with me, you get home in time for Thanksgiving. Perfect. Perfect timing.

Marc Charbonnet 31:44

That's perfect. Well, Ross, I wish I had more time to talk to you, but I try to keep these things at a half an hour because it's just the way we program. That's right. Um maybe you'll come back and talk some more. I really have thoroughly enjoyed this, and I think the listeners are going to enjoy this. You know, we have such a well, your son Toby, who is a child actor, he's one of our one of our episodes, and then so many other people that are uniquely individual in this lovely little hamlet where we live. Um but thank you so much. It's just been an absolute pleasure. And remember, everyone, I have a tour called See the Ville. And it's excuse me, it's called The Ghost of Bite. See the Ville is the podcast. And um listen in for our upcoming uh podcast. You'll see them on Instagram, and it's just been a pleasure. Thank you, Ross.

Ross K. Nichols 32:38

Well, thank you, Marc. I appreciate you having me on, and uh I'd love to come back.

Marc Charbonnet 32:41

Uh look forward to it.