Constant Combat

The Path From The Dark Side - Joshua Alderette (part 1 of 2)

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Josh Alderette gives a candid oral history: a young lance corporal is yanked from his team and dropped into 81s as a TOW gunner, right after losing a friend. The early Ramadi period shows how expectations fractured early. They were sold stabilization... then hit with IED craters, night missions, and gear failures under stress. 
What lingers isn’t only violence; it’s the culture that kept people from seeking care.

• transfer from MAP 2 to 81s and leadership pushback
• March AFB spin-up, open-bolt lessons, early blasts
• stigma around getting medical care, undocumented wounds
• April 4–6 turning point
• friendly fire on Nova, gear failures, light loadouts
• killing time through gallows humor, pranks, and cards
• chasing adrenaline after war, a hotel incident... and recovery
• TOW employment in Ramadi

If you like what you've heard. This is a multi part episode. Make sure you listen to the rest of the story.


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Transfer To 81s And Fallout

SPEAKER_02

Josh, I was uh the PSC Lance corporal on uh our 2004 deployment to Ramadi. Um I was with I started with uh map two and then I got transferred over to 81's what were we section two?

SPEAKER_00

Sledge memory.

SPEAKER_02

Yep. Yeah, yeah. So that's uh where I was. I was a toe gunner, I guess if that's what we needed to also clarify. Although toe is what it really should have been.

SPEAKER_00

No, it was uh it was it was great to have you brought over. And uh I was telling Nylon uh when I said that you said that you were willing to do it, that I have a very, very vivid memory of uh him coming over to me and pulling me aside and basically being like, make sure you keep you you you watch over my boy here. Don't let him get caught up in the stupidity of 81s. And so pretty good.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I it was I'll be honest, it was uh for me when I got transferred, that fucking sucked. And it was an emotional for me, it was it was hard to admit, like it was fucking emotional because we had just gone through like Morris had just died, we had just done three fucking days of like the terribly shit I've ever done in my life, and then to be taken away from the guys that I did it with to get moved over. And it's not to say that 81s weren't good, but it was like this fucking bond, and then all of a sudden it was like, well, we don't well, I mean, not that that's taken into consideration with anything in the military, but it's like, yeah, no, now you're getting moved because of what your job is. And I was like, and I, you know, I was I was 18 when we when we got there. So it's not like I was I had no my frontal cortex was still being developed. So I had no way of like trying to like justify like this is actually, you know, this is kind of a good thing because you're uh in a unique position that you're actually being moved because of what you know and what how you were able to kind of do things. And instead, I was looking at it more as like a native kind of thing, like, well, fuck, now I'm moving over here, these fucking guys that I don't know. And honestly, I I made some like fantastic trends when I was in 81. So it's like, you know, it was like uh it wasn't all bad, but in that moment, goddamn, I was oh, I was not the first couple of weeks. I was uh I was upset.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so on the back end, and I I think I don't know if I even let on at the time, but I threw a fit on your behalf in the company office, uh, in our the whatever that little COC that they had built with the maps and the radios and everything. Because they pulled me over and they're like, Look, we're taking somebody from your platoon, uh, preferably a tow gunner, and we're gonna move them over to 81s. And they're like, We want already. And I was like, Nope, can't fucking have him. He's in my truck, he's staying in my truck. And they're and they're going back and forth with me, like, well, then who else? And I was like, We have a lot of NCOs, and we don't need that many NCOs. What I do need is a good gunner, and he's a good fucking gunner, and he's already been there, and I need him to stay there. And and they're like, Well, then who do you suggest? And I was like, We have extra NCOs. Again, you can take Metroca. Why can't you take Metroca? And it wasn't that I was against Metroca, but I was like, this is a perfect person who has experience. Matroca's a good gunner, he's a solid NCO. And they were like, Well, 81s doesn't need more NCOs, that might actually be a problem. And I was like, Okay, then can you take a machine gunner? I have other machine gun NCOs. And they're like, Well, we kind of want to move a tow system over to 81s so that way they have the optics and the and the capability. And I was like, I don't give a fuck. You can take anybody you want, you're not taking Aldredy. And it was a constant back and forth. And finally, uh Gunny Murarki stepped up and he's like, You don't get a choice. And I was like, Okay, Gunny, I guess that's it. And I like it was just like I knew he was gonna pick me up and chokeslam me any minute because I was getting a little bit belligerent. And I was like, you know, this is I was like very close to him, and I was like, these, you know, this is fucking bullshit. Like, we've already gone through all these fights together, we've already had like he, I I have him exactly where I want him. Like he is the perfect person for this position. And they're like, Yeah, that's why we're taking him.

SPEAKER_02

See, and that's where like I didn't know that, and that's the way I probably shouldn't have because I mean, if you look at like special forces too, like they they don't take like with for your argument is they take it, you're a high-level NCO because they want you. If you're gonna go somewhere, they want you to be able to be like this. I have the authority to go with it. Like an NCO in that portion would have made sense because then they're going, he's a corporal, so he knows what he's doing. He's been around for a while, he can operate on his own, he doesn't need a lot of fucking instruction. And then instead you're like, now we're gonna take this pivot, we're gonna take Lance Corporal at this time. 18-year-old Lance Corporal, and we're gonna take him, we're gonna move him over here. By the way, it's because we think you're good.

Spin-Up, Training Mishaps, And NDs

SPEAKER_01

And and I I don't remember how I broke the news to you, but I do remember what you did when I told you because I walked back over I walked back over the hooch and I was like, pack your shit, you're moving to 81s, and you threw your helmet across the squad bay. Like it, and you were like, fuck you, fuck this. And I was like, You'd be mad if you want, you're going. And I immediately turned around and walked over and went and found Blake. And I said, and that's when I said what exactly what he just said. I was like, you need to take care of him. I was like, This is this is personal to me. I need you to take care of him.

SPEAKER_02

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I was uh I was uh I was I was pretty angry. But it's funny is I had this thought of like Gunny Maroc grow up boys going, no, you're not fucking doing that. And then you're going, yeah, okay, you know what? I'm gonna lose everything you say. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's what I so I am curious just to rewind just a tiny bit since we just talked about your platoon shift, but you did start with map too. I don't remember exactly when you got to weapons company. When did you come in the first group of people, like August, September? No, September?

SPEAKER_02

No, I came like almost individually. I think there was only two of us that came from SOI. So I uh right before Christmas is when I got there. So Christmas is right before we went on Christmas leave. And then um when Sponny I two of you picked me up from SOI is the first, I can't remember it was you and Corporal Fuck, what's his name? Shorter Mexican dude, not Miranda. No, it wasn't Metroca. I can't remember. I can't remember his name. Anyways, the two of you picked me up, and when the two of you picked me up, you're like, oh yeah, by the way, go ahead and tell your family that you're leaving in February and you're going to Iraq. I was like, oh, um, okay.

SPEAKER_01

I don't remember that, but that sounds very accurate.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so yeah, it was the two of you picked me up, and like I was like, I just like walked off of like parade deck with like graduating from SOI and like, yeah, you're going, so come on, pack your ship, let's go.

SPEAKER_01

Nice. Because I think at that point we had not broke out into mobile assault platoons. We were just about to after the Christmas leave. And so if you're saying Mexican corporal, it was probably either Pacheco or Best one. Yeah, that's I because me and Pacheco were told we were picking up a couple people. I did not remember that being you, and that's really fucking funny.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, I I think there were it was just literally I because I think when um when my class graduated, there was only like maybe 15 of us going to 2-4, and everybody else was going to somewhere in somewhere in the stumps. I think it was from yeah, wherever they were going. And so it was like it was weird because they're like, Oh yeah, that just you 10 are gonna go, and everybody else was going somewhere else. And I was like, um, all right, well, I don't know how any of this shit works.

SPEAKER_01

It's interesting. That's very that's very telling in that we were so below TO, but they were still tanking up other units rather than 2-4. I just don't think anybody thought Ramadi was gonna be what it was. And so that's just just I mean, you talking about ratios, that's that's also very telling that we weren't because right after that, once we deployed, every soi graduating class was was sent to Fifth Marines, basically.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so we we didn't get well. I mean, think about like before we left. What were they telling us we're gonna do Sasto operations and they're gonna be you're gonna be doing fucking footballs and you're just gonna be kind of hanging out and letting them rebuild their shit and like it was like, yeah, okay, that worked for like a month. Yeah. And then everything took a giant shit.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So that means that means you were there for the whole March Air Force Base spin-up. And you don't remember that. Oh, I've got some fun.

SPEAKER_02

I've got some fun stories about that one. So that's why I was asking that you do. Yeah, so that's when uh so I shot the number two dude. Do you remember that? Yes, yeah, and so and it wasn't on purpose. So I was actually so I got in trouble for that the first ND because I had no idea how a fucking machine gun works or how a fucking open bolt, like they go over it in SOI, and it's like, I have no idea how a fucking open bolt works. So if you keep the fucking belt on and you ride the bolt forward, guess what fucking comes out with it? The fucking firing pin. So it's gonna go off, and that's how they work. I had no idea. So that was the first one. But the second one that I got in trouble for was not an ND. I was trying to fire a fucking burst of that dude, and apparently just the one that I fired, the one round that came out killed the number two guy. And I was like, and I got in trouble for it again. And I was like, I know I was actually trying to shoot at that guy. So, but it was hard to argue with Gunny at that time. He just grabbed me. I don't remember, he grabbed me up, he threw me down and goes, What the fuck is wrong with you? And I'm like, and he gets me down behind a 240. He's like, Oh no, this fucking thing, and he's yelling at me and he goes, What's your MOS? I'm like, I'm gonna I'm like you know, 18-year-old kid, I'm like, oh two, oh three thirty, I'm oh three fifty-two. And he's like, Well, regardless, he's gonna work and he was I mean, it was true too, all right. And then eventually I got caught up on everything, but yeah, he I do remember he fucking lit me up, and I was just thinking my mind, I was not actually trying to fire, I was not an ND man. Nobody wanted to fucking hear that.

SPEAKER_01

So, other than March Air Force Base, do you remember any other training that we did before? I remember a range that we did, but I think it was before Christmas, so I think you missed that.

SPEAKER_02

No, we did a tow range, though. We did a tow range. I remember that. Remember March? Uh I don't know if we did anything else. I remember the British dudes were there and they were talking about satellite patrols and that kind of shit, but I don't remember I don't remember any other training outside of that. Oh, wait, we did a uh a mount course too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, did we did we actually go to a mountaintown or are you just talking about the one we did in the backyard? No, we did uh we went to Mounttown. We were doing a live fire at Mounttown. So I remember that too. I just couldn't remember what exact dates it was.

TBIs, BAS Stigma, And Silent Injuries

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So I I mean, don't ask me the dates either, man. I there's a point in some of the deployment where I don't remember a lot. And it was uh, I mean, as you guys are all very familiar with how many blasts I went through. A little bit of TBI, and especially the last one, I don't remember like a month. Like I probably should not have been on the line, and I probably should have gone straight to BAS right after that one. But yeah, what do we do instead? Um what am I? I also was scared I was gonna get in trouble for going to BAS, like for being like, hey, I got fucked up over here. My my shore, I feel like my shoulder's been torn, but then I want to get in trouble because I was like, oh, I'm you know, I'm boot still essentially. And I was 18, 19 years old. So then I'm like, I'm gonna get in trouble, and they're gonna think that there's something wrong with me. And it's like, well, I mean, technically there was. Like that's what it that's what it was there for, but then I also didn't want to look like a fucking huge pussy. So I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna deal with it. And yeah, for better or worse, here I am.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's a it's definitely a chronic culture in the infantry of like you never go to duck unless something's hanging off of you that you can't patch up on your own or something, you know, something weird. Like you can't get out of bed, you're truly near dead.

SPEAKER_00

Well, even then you're still a malingerer.

SPEAKER_01

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, well, I well, even I got like, I can't remember. I was taking a shower and I must have gotten whatever the fuck, the water in my mouth. I got so fucking sick. And I was, I was like just a fucking human sprinkler. And by like the second day, that's when I was like, hey, uh, hey doc, I think something's wrong. And he fucking looks at me and he goes, Holy shit. So they take me straight to BAS and they give me a shitload of fluid and a bunch of anti-nause and all this other shit, and like and antibiotics and shit. I'm like, oh, okay, well, that that was warranted. Yeah, but to fucking die of dysentery.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, such a common story where people are have something legit going on. And then you have the flip side where people have nothing going on and then go to BAS and you're like, what the fuck, man? You're ruining it for everybody else because everybody else who has actual real shit like you're talking about end up skipping it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, like one of the blasts I couldn't lift my arm at all. And I I like I was worried that somebody was gonna catch me, and so like when I would carry my gear out, I would hold it low because I couldn't lift my arm all the way up. And I didn't want to get in trouble for not being able to like lift things. And like I was so fucking worried that I it took like probably two or three months before I could actually move it again. And I was like, oh good, it doesn't hurt as bad. Now I can do this, and like now I pay for it because the shoulder just pops all the time, it's never in place, like it's not as strong as it used to be. Like it's yeah, it's been fantastic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That even translated to purple hearts, too, because there were plenty of guys who didn't want to get written up for purple hearts, because at the time there was a policy that if you got one, fine, you stayed. If you got two, it was recommended that you leave, and three, you didn't have a choice. And there were plenty of dudes who earned two or three purple hearts, but never went to BAS and refused. So they had wounds that were never documented.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's part of the yeah, like that. I mean the the last one that that got me, that one, that one really fucked me up. And I probably should have, like I said, I probably shouldn't have been on the line for at least a couple of weeks or a couple of I should have had it released in white duty or something. Like I there's no way I can I don't know how you guys didn't like how my speech wasn't slurred or how I wasn't acting like a fucking weirdo or more of a weirdo. Like well, I'll be honest.

SPEAKER_00

I'll be honest, I was I was I was heavily cut concussed during a lot of that also. And so, you know, how do you identify a drunk man when you're drunk, also? You know is he slurring or am I slurring?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, right. Or is it my my hearing slurred?

SPEAKER_00

Which uh uh which which which one are you talking about that was the big one? Do you remember well enough?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was the end of the it was towards the end, and it was in the middle of the night, and it was the one that it was the Jersey barrier that went off. Oh I do, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that one. Yeah, that one, well, that one knocked me unconscious, and so this is one of the one of the good stories is it went off and I just apparently went limp. And uh, I think it was Wade was sitting in the in the the the VC spot and he fucking or no, he was sitting in the back and grabs my leg, he starts shaking me, and I fucking come to and the first thing I tell him was like, what are you doing? Touch my fucking leg, you fag. He goes, Oh, okay, yeah, he's good.

SPEAKER_01

That seems to be your MO because the first IED we caught was uh was in March. It was March 18th in the middle of the night. Also, it was uh what was it called? St. Patrick's Day. Well, it had just it had just rolled over.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, do you remember why? Because I said it's St.

First Big Blasts And Safety Gear

SPEAKER_01

Patrick's Day and I can't die on St. Patrick's Day. Yes. Yeah, you fuckers try to get me on my day is what I did. Yep. But I remember again, they they this is a little early, so they were burying them a little too deep, but that was a fucking ginormous blast that's that engulfed our vehicle. And the only way I knew you were okay is because you were up there, fuck, fuck, fuck you, fuck everybody. And like you were just yelling, and I was like, Oh, this is good. Yeah, but he's alive.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he's alive and he's angry, and I was looking for something. There was nothing to shoot. So I was like, all right, well, nobody around. It was in the middle of the night. I didn't realize how big that one was. I I always thought it was like one of the, it was just a like a soda can I inside of a telephone. I had no idea it was that big.

SPEAKER_01

It ended up leaving a pretty big blast crater in the ground. We drove maybe a hundred yards past it. And uh the only reason why I know is because my dumbass got out. We didn't, you know, we didn't know what we were doing at the time. It was early in the deployment. I got out and I ran back because I thought we were gonna catch somebody. I don't know who we thought we were gonna catch, but I linked up with Staff Sergeant Coleman in the middle of the road, and I we linked up literally right next to the blast crater, and it was huge. And then we went, me, him, and harden, and I think I think Groves, if I remember correctly, and we went right around the corner, and there was a couple of guys loading rice bags at a shop, and we were like, What did you see? They didn't speak any English, of course. And and yeah, they yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was completely worthless. Well, cool, man. Um other than blacks, do you remember? Uh oh, go ahead, please.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I was gonna say you what's funny about that one too is the well, first off, I apparently have been quite vocal to put that. But uh that one was funny is when we got to when we pulled into um what was it, the camp? Oh no, common outpost. Yeah, they they sent us over to the battalion surgeon, and the battalion surgeons checking me out, and I had like concrete and scrap metal here. And he goes, Did you have glasses on? And I started laughing, he's like, Did you have like safety glasses on? I started laughing like, yeah, it's gay, dude. And he goes, Well, you were one lucky motherfucker because everything went around your eye just like you were wearing uh safety glasses, and I was like, Oh, well, I'm still not gonna wear them. And then I eventually picked up wear them, but yeah, it was pretty funny because I just looked at it, I was like, I don't wear any glasses. What's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_01

I was wearing safety glasses and it still peppered the fuck out of my face and and and blew the glasses off my face, so it didn't matter.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so it's a good thing I wasn't wearing any. It would have got blown off my face.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, did we get those oakleys before we went over or while we were over there? Like I forgot all until you said that about the safety glasses, all of a sudden I remember that we we got so we did not.

SPEAKER_01

We got the oakleys mid-deployment. What we got issued prior was the Wiley X's, and the Wiley X's had the uh pop-out lenses, which everybody thought were super cool because you could have a clear lens for night and a smoked lens for daytime. For daytime, yeah. The downside of the pop-out lenses is when the fucking IEDs went off, the lenses popped out.

SPEAKER_02

I was gonna say they pop out.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that's that's what happened. I was wearing those YLXs and the fucking lenses went two different directions. And the frames were like right in front of me. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. All right. So you had a question. What was your person?

SPEAKER_01

No, no, no. I I it wasn't much. I was just gonna say, other than blasts, you uh what else do you remember from the early part of that deployment?

SPEAKER_02

So they remember we were just kind of I was still under the impression that we were just going to be kind of hanging out, right? And it was I think it was in the beginning we were just kind of driving around figuring out what the fuck we were doing. I still remember when the was it the was it the army that was on the other side of the Euphrates? And we were doing we were still running split um uh split platoon. So we were we had some dismounts down on the river and they started taking fire from the, I think from the army guys. And we rushed back. And it was on oh, it wasn't on what was the route that went right along the uh the Euphrates, the Rio. Nova Nova. Nova, yes. We were fucking flying down Nova with blacked out and uh he's going, ludicrous speed, and we're driving like fast as shit down and I was like, this is the like some of them just to get there and to find out it was like the the army is the one that was shooting at the dismounts because they just saw them in the in the grass, and they're like, Man, well, we're gonna shoot when we get there. And they're like, Yeah, don't don't shoot back.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that was the one where the Bradleys were shooting across, or the sorry, the strikers, those were strikers at that time, were shooting across the river uh at our guys. And uh as we're pulling up, because Richie was in our section, he started throwing Mark 19 back their direction. And that was what made them stop firing was that the Mark 19 was hitting on the striker armor. Yeah, and that was that was the only thing that like later on the after actions was that that was why they knew to stop firing, and we knew to stop firing because they threw up a red star at that point. And it's like, well, we don't know who the fuck's firing at us. I just know it's loud.

Early Ops, Friendly Fire Scare On Nova

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Loud and big, not that it really matters when it's flying past you or what fucking size it is, right? No, I that's I mean, in the beginning that it just seemed like it was kind of like, eh, maybe there's gonna be an ID here or there. It's not gonna get like super, it's not gonna turn into what it turned into. And then and then it did. Yeah. So I just remember that. I remember like a lot of like guard, like trying to figure out what the the rotation was gonna be, like what you're you're doing nights, you're doing days, you're night, night guard, your day guard, all that kind of. That's all I kind of remember, and I remember getting there, like I remember the area beautification too when we got there. Tell me about that. The the the delightful uh euphemistic term that the fucking military likes to put onto things, the area beautification, which means get the fuck out there and clear everything out. And even uh we're gonna paint rocks in the rain. So how about that? So the area beautification, I guess maybe remember we they when we first got there, the hoochas all had a bunch of like trees and shit in front of them. And they wanted to be able to park the trucks in front of the in front of the hoochas that way it was just quick for us to be able to get in and out. And so when we got there, there was like um there's some giant fucking palm tree. And so we were trying to tear it out, which is super easy whenever you take an axe to a uh palm tree because of the way they're designed. And then we were trying to like pull it out with a truck, and like I think eventually we got it out, but it was like it was one of those things where it was like, holy shit, palm trees suck.

SPEAKER_01

They've been there for so long for a reason.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the the that's why they thrive in the desert for a reason.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, I remember uh that's that's pretty much it. We just and then kind of I remember we also were like minimally, minimally armed, I would say. Like we didn't have a lot of didn't have a lot of ammo, we didn't have the toes of the time. We didn't have really when we I think maybe we had like two AT4s, nobody had grenades, splash bands were not a thing. Nope. Uh and it was like just kind of all right, well, and it was a hot as shit by then too. So it was like we hadn't even gotten to the the the enjoyable 120-degree weather yet. So it was just kind of yeah, it was just kind of like, all right, well, we're hanging out here, go to the town hall, eat, uh, work out and come back and go go on new patrol. That was pretty much pretty much it until what was it, April 3rd.

SPEAKER_01

So I mean, the depending on what you're referencing, uh, April 4th was the patrol night patrol we went out on where Morris got hit and he died the morning of the fifth. And that I feel like that really made it. I mean, I personally I felt like getting blown up by a giant IED made it a little bit more real, but uh that definitely sealed the deal when we had one of our own get taken down. And then the sit the sixth was the first official day of the Battle of Vermonty.

SPEAKER_02

So I well, I always got confused whether it was the third or the fourth that he got hit. So glad to know that now is the fourth, and then he but there was the the by the time we got back to the hooch, it was already well like three or four in the morning. But then that's when Staff Sergeant Coleman came out and let us know that he because he he died on the way to Germany, didn't he? Or did he did he die? Like they don't really know.

SPEAKER_01

I never heard for sure. The way it was relayed to me is just that he did not make it through the flight. That was it. I don't know if that was the flight to Baghdad or from Baghdad. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Or was it even the flight from like Pombot Outpost? Because what you know, I yeah, that's what I meant. Um that whole that really that night really fucked me up. Uh that uh that one that one's really stuck with me for a long time. Like I've it fucked with me. And I um a lot of therapy and counseling and a lot of uh a little bit of uh slight inner um led to a little bit of a slight misunderstanding with a SWAT team. Oh no.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, oh my so yeah, well, because that that night before he got hit, we went to uh oh shit, we went and got like good show at the what was it the fuck was the it was called Junction City at the time Junction City, but then it didn't get changed to like the pamper Mati is what it was called after we left. But yeah, the big red one was there, the first infantry division.

Area “Beautification” And Light Loadouts

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So I got an interesting story about that too. But that night we went there, and I remember he I think he called staff sergeant Coleman sergeant or some shit like that, and we were all giving him a fucking hard time, and he was doing push-ups, and I I kicked him when he was down. And you know, I didn't know at the time that was gonna be the pretty much the last time I'd ever talked to him. But he also like when after we got hit, he was the first person to come up to me and asked me how it was doing, like when we got back to Combat Outpost. And I remember kind of being an asshole to him. And you know, him and Newmeyer, they were kind of kind of weird, I guess would be the nice way of putting it. Like they were unique, right? They had like kind of their own little way of doing things, and they were kind of you know, and I and I but I've always felt guilty since then, like man had no idea. And then, but I remember when we got to the combat outpost, I think it was Rudy had his hand like inside of him, and I remember looking at him going, oh shit, because there was like there was not a lot of him, and I uh I think somebody was telling me it was like basically trying to massage his heart to keep him alive. And then uh it was they were using blue light, which was weird to me, instead of using like well, I mean, I guess they're using white light, or like why not use white light? They already fucking know that we're we're there, the hilo's coming in, so just use fucking white light, like and I get it too, because if they're you know sniper or looking at like mortar fire, they're gonna know exactly where you're at with the white light. But what uh but I just remember seeing like the blue light, you can't really see a lot of blood under blue light, and like just seeing them like trying to all the corn and working on them. And I think at that point too, the surgeon might have even been there in the back of the home V when they were taking when they were gonna know how to the L Z, but I remember that, yeah, that fucked with me. Still fucks with me.

SPEAKER_01

I did not remember that you went into the surgical suite with us because it was me and Harden that went in for sure, and I knew other people went in, but I did not remember it was you. And yes, that was a site that definitely sticks with you. He was he was a very open. That's the easiest way to put it. That RPG did a lot of damage.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, I mean, we I mean, between the two of us being a medical field, I've seen plenty of trauma now, and it's like trauma's trauma, but fuck man, when you see like when you see it, it's like fuck. Sometimes sometimes I don't work a lot of trauma now too, but still sometimes fucks with me. I'm like, Yeah, is this the is this this is the world that I chose to live in?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, very much so. Very much so. You know, it's you were talking a little about uh feeling guilty later and uh and the SWAT team. I'm curious what uh what what you meant by that.

April 4–6: Morris, Grief, And Ramadi Ignites

SPEAKER_02

So well, first the the interesting story that I had about the the big red one there is when I got out when I got out of the uh when I got out of the marines, um, I went into the reserves and one of the guys that I went into the army reserve, well army national guard, but one of the guys I met, he because the army's all about fucking patches and all their fucking wards and shit. Like it's annoying as fuck, but they all have like anybody that had um combat experience, they'll wear one of the patches on. So I was talking about where I was at, and this guy goes, You were a Marine? I go, well, actually, it was two guys. One was uh he was a Bradley gunner that was at Junction City, and he goes, Dude, you guys are fucked up. I'm like, Yeah, no shit. I was there. I said then I met another guy, he was with um oh shit. Who's the artillery battalion that was at uh I think they were at uh I don't know who uh uh what was it? 311 311 or something like that. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, you're right, yeah. And they would come out and they would every once in a while they would come out and they would support us too. And he was another one that was like, Jesus fucking Christ, you were there. I was like, right in the middle of it, bro. So my light disagreement with the uh the SWAT team was well, basically I'd been drinking a lot, and I never really addressed uh the issues that I was having. And then um I guess the the shortest, easiest way to say is that I was gonna uh kill myself. And then the um the woman I was married to at the time essentially wrestled. We got into this like wrestling match, she was able to get the gun out of my hand, and by that time we were in a hotel, and the hotel was like, what the fuck is going on? Police showed up, and then I uh I still didn't want to be on this side of the ground. So then I took a bunch of pills and locked myself in a bathroom, and then after about an hour when the pills didn't do shit, I was like, Well, fuck. And then I uh came out and like just watched it. I guess part of it was because they they heard about all the the combat experience and shit. I was like, this was like Rambo shit too. Come out of the bathroom and there's just fucking like I think there was like four guns pointing at me, and I'm like, ah, we can put those down. I'm here now, yeah. That's one good.

SPEAKER_00

So you drew first blood.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there was there was none of that. No, I wasn't doing none of that. Which is probably better because I mean, you know, I'm bamboo.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm glad you're here, man. That's I'm glad that it sounds our conversation earlier. It's you got your sounds like you have your feet under you now.

SPEAKER_02

So very I do now, yeah. It was, but it, you know, it was one of those things where like I I think I was like almost like a heroin addict where they're kind of like trying to chase the dragon from what we were doing that first time. Like it's it's terrible. I'm sure you guys can relate to like the adrenaline rush from like a firefight is nothing like you'll ever experience ever in your life again. And so then I was like, when I when I got out, I got out and I probably should have stayed in, but then I went into like the reserves and I was like, it's not the same, and you don't do the same, you're still looking for the that same kind of like uh rush that never really comes. And then when you get out, then they're like, all right, just be normal. Like, oh, right, yeah, okay, that's gonna be super easy. Let me just go back from all this terrible shit I did and just be fucking normal now. Yeah. So and that was one of the things like I need to do, except like you're not there anymore. And then, like, when we were talking about like the different um perspectives that people had, it's like that's pretty much like cognital cognitive behavioral therapy is basically you're going in and you're writing what you saw, and then you sit down, you're talking to a therapist, and they're like, Well, you know, the like giving you a different perspective. Like, like one of the good ones was, you know, we were giving Morris a hard time. Was that any different than what we would have done any other day? Right. No, it wasn't. And it was exactly what we would have done, and it's what we would have kept on doing, even if he would have lived, right? If he wouldn't have got hit that night, we still would have been, still would have been fucking with him, we still would have been giving him a hard time, we still would have been doing everything that we were. And and it's like well, and then look at it from other people's perspective too. Like, was that what do you think he would have thought? And it's like, he would have just thought that we were just doing the same fucking thing that we've been doing, like, so and that's kind of like uh that's why when I was thinking about this, I was like, hmm, it's gonna be interesting to talk about a lot of this stuff. So yeah. Anyway, so yeah, that was my uh that was my minor disagreement, a little disagreement with the SWAT teams, though.

SPEAKER_01

Well, as Blake said, I'm extremely glad you're here. Uh I knew you had gone through it. I had reached out a few times. I am very glad you're here now to especially to tell these stories. Uh your feeling is shared by a lot of people, including myself, of Yeah, me too. I I don't know what it was. I don't I can't I can't put my finger on it. There's a there's about seven different aspects of it that I was chasing after 2004, and it sounds like you were as well. The you never felt as alive as you ever felt before. Uh, I never found people that I liked as much as I liked those people for whatever reason. Even people who, you know, uh we we talked shit to each other, and you you would, you know, if you kicked me while I was doing push-ups, like I would still love you for it. Right. It's and I guarantee you that's how Morris feels too. Your story with Morris reminds me of my story, is the same with him the night that he died. He came to get me to play spades. We played spades a bunch, and he was my spades partner. He was all I was like a like an annoying little brother, is how I died.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And but like a like in a sweet way. Like he it wasn't like he was like, yeah, it was just kind of like almost like uh like mouth and babes kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah, he was a he was a good dude. And but he came to, I was in a smoke pit, I was talking to I don't know, Groves or Richie or somebody who was smoking with me, and he came out to get me for cards. And I don't remember what the fuck I said to him, but I was like, I am not, I I'm I'm busy right now, you know, like like almost chewing him away like an asshole. And he's like, Oh, come on, Sergeant. And I was like, and it said something like, you know, I'll be I'll be in there when I'm done fucking your mother or something like that. Like just straight up horrible shit. Well, it comes to find out his mom died on that same day, and he was like, Oh yeah, and so he goes, Oh, come on, Sergeant, you can't do that. Today's the day that my mom died. I was like, today's the day I can't talk about fucking your mother, and like I just kept I kept laying into him going on because that's what you do as a marine infantryman, and I kept fucking with him, and he's like, Come on, man, and then he did and I did eventually play cards with him, and and that was it. We played cards and we went to Junction City, and then then the rest is history. But I I have thought about that too. Like the last thing I talked to him about is fucking his mother, like I, you know, like his dead dead mother, his dead mother, yeah. Yes, yes. But it's you know, it's a it's a weird thing you don't know, right? And if he had lived through that RPB RPG blast, we would be fucking with him right now. Like it wouldn't be any different, right? You still would, because that's the way it goes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was just, I mean, that was an interesting experience too. Because like I remember when uh Stanford and Coleman told us and he came in. I remember like New Meyer just fucking clapped essentially. And he was like, I was standing right next to him, and I was like, and I I don't do tears and emotions very well. And I was like, oh man, you gotta fucking do something. I was like trying to like comfort him. I put my hand on his shoulder, but I felt super fucking awkward, and I'm like, uh and then I was, I mean, obviously I'm experiencing my own grief too at the same time, where I'm like, well, he wasn't my best friend, but yeah, and then yeah, I remember that happening and I'm going, oh shit. And then that's when we got I remember we got some whiskey that night. Yeah. We did. And uh well, and nobody was firing off of the uh guard post, so it worked out good that night. Yeah. Um, yeah, that was uh that was one of I think probably one of the more memorable, not so funny things, which I mean it's nice to hear too that it wasn't just me. All right, but not at all. Yeah. So yeah, I had no idea that his mom had died either. That's fucking terrible. And his poor his poor dad, you remember when we came home, his dad wanted to go to dinner? I I couldn't fucking do it. I left early. I couldn't, I couldn't stay there. I was like, I I gotta, I gotta go. I think me and Cohen left early. I was like, I I can't.

SPEAKER_01

This is I can't, man. I'm sorry. I'm not I'm not a fucking hero. A bunch of you guys went to that. I did not. I don't know what the hell I was doing, but I did not go to that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It was it was hard, it was hard to go to, and I was like, I gotta go. And Cohen was like, yeah, me too. It's like let's go together. I was like, perfect, let's leave.

Guilt, Therapy, And A SWAT Standoff

SPEAKER_00

So then right after that, it was oh go ahead, but I was just gonna say it's it's you saying that it just reminds me just how you know we we have a lot of expectations on ourselves looking back on it, but as a 40-year-old looking back and giving thinking about what we were asking these 20-year-olds to navigate. And I I have a lot of a lot of sympathy for for our former younger selves and the people that are doing it now currently. That's as you said, our prefrontal cortexes were not even fully developed and we're trying to navigate these exceptionally complex emotions.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think that's probably why they recruit the you know, like 18, 19 year old. You don't have you don't have a lot of the the forward thinking, you don't your cortex, it's easy to kind of just tell you to go do things and then you don't really think a lot about the long-term consequences. We're like now we're all in our 40s and we're going, hold on, you want me to do what? I have more questions about this before I just rush into something.

SPEAKER_00

No, I I understand the beginning part. The little part, the middle is getting hazy. What's the exit here? No, hold on. How are we gonna really no you and actually uh something that you said about kind of treating it almost like a heroin? I I quite literally when I got out, I I literally would say that I was an addict to the adrenaline. Like I was like, I when I actually stopped doing martial arts, I stopped putting myself in any kind of situation where I'd get my I could I could get my adrenaline up because it was I remember being like being a drug and being like, well, if I can't get if I can't, I I'm chasing the dragon of what it felt like to be over here, but at least I can get a little, a little taste of it, I get into this other bar fight, or if I pick on this other person or confront the guy that's yelling at me as I'm walking down the street in Vegas and he's just trying to sell me a CD. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Or if I do 120, if I do 120 on my motorcycle splitting lanes, that's gonna give me some fucking yeah, and so I I had to cut it all the way out.

SPEAKER_00

Now that I'm in my 40s, I've gone back to it, but that's just because I don't have the I don't have the I don't have the energy to see it through.

SPEAKER_02

It's a physiological response. Um you know, one thing that when you first hit me up is I I was telling you the story where you were you I can't remember what what fucking general came in, but they were did this whole big thing where they're like, we need to clean everything. It needs to look perfect, the barracks need to look good, the uh roads need to look great. And I was like, okay. And so, like, here we are, like, I probably just got fucking some firefight and we come back, and we're like, all right, now you gotta clean all this shit up. And it was kind of like I'm sure both of you have either read or watched um All is Quiet on the Western Front, where you're doing this stupid shit and you're on the front and you're like, what the fuck am I doing this for? But they came in and they gave us uh, I think they gave us like these really shitty socks and these fucking brown tidy whiteys. And I was like, I remember when we got them like, who the fuck is wearing this shit? Like these socks are crazy uncomfortable in this fucking tight, but you did and you put them on, and uh it was like you put them on and you had some summer sausage that you fucking shoved in there too. And I think it was Wade came over and kind of like moved your pawn trail, and you were like, you look like Stuart from Mad TV, and it was one of the funniest fucking things I've ever and like he kept on like trying to poke at you, and you kept on doing like this like Stuart thing where you're like pushing your leg against him. It was the one of the funniest fucking things I've ever seen. And I was like imperfect too, because he had these stupid tidy white eels on this giant fucking sausage thing, and like it was oh, it was fantastic. Like, those are the only good things that those socks and underwear ever did for us.

SPEAKER_00

You're welcome. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. I I just think because your rack was like at the front and it was you had a wall, and I would just remember him pulling it off and me going, what the fuck? And then it was just it was perfect.

SPEAKER_00

I tried to make it as awkward as possible. I found that to be uh that's uh You succeeded, sir. Thank you. I'm really good at it.

SPEAKER_02

Obviously, it's something that I it was a core memory that you re-drawed, but thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's too funny. No, I have a couple I have a couple memories of just the stupid antics that we would get up to in there. Um and so I risk a lot of cards, a lot of I remember us tasing each other a lot.

SPEAKER_02

So that was uh We started doing that even before we left. We were doing that at Pendleton on the basketball court. Groves had gotten some fucking stun gun, and he was like, Yeah, I'm gonna bring this with me. And so then we started, he started, he was like, Let me stun you. Like, okay. So then we're always fucking tasing each other, and it's like, and then who was it? Somebody took something like out of one of those like electric um fly swatters, and then they were using that, and that one fucking hurt. That was me. Yeah, yeah, that was you, yeah. Didn't it weld to the fucking table too? It was like, yeah, that was quite an arc, bro.

SPEAKER_01

I I had taken that was the flash module out of a disposable camera. And I oh, is it okay? And I would charge it up and I'd throw it to people and they'd catch it and it'd blast and shock them. It was great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Oh my god, do you remember when we were um it was we were at oh shoot, it was right before we pushed into we were still at Kuwait and we were doing um we're filling the bottles up with the uh the gas that comes off of the uh MREs. We're doing the bottles and we were like launching one, and one went off, and somebody was like, What the fuck is that? And he was like, uh, we should probably stop doing that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, that was oh my god, I'm gonna fuck up Staff Sergeant Walker. He's the guy staff sergeant that ended up getting killed. Uh, but he was Staff Sergeant Walker, and he he hit the deck because he thought they were getting water. And uh and he was like, What the hell are you doing? We're like, we're making waters out of water bottles with MRE heaters. Fucking quit it.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Well, I mean, yeah, well, I mean, think about it when we left too. Like, there were not a lot of guys that had any combat experience. Like, you might think about them like Staff Sergeant Coleman did, uh, Gunny Mararkey, McCabe. But really, that was kind of like it. It was like maybe five guys, maybe five, six guys that had ever. And but that's a company of what 115, 120 guys. So not a huge ratio. And so we don't fucking know anything. Like I I mean, I now I think about it like if I if that happened on my second, third, fourth, fifth, I probably would have done the same thing where we go, what the fuck are you doing? Right. Instead of, I don't know, I'm fucking 18, I'm bored, we haven't done shit. And guess what? I have matches and a lighter, and this fucking gas is flammable. So guess what I'm gonna do?

unknown

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Uh that's too funny. That's oh hilarious.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, what do you like?

Chasing Adrenaline After Combat

SPEAKER_01

I guess what are you what do you guys like remember most about it, or like what it what was like your guys' biggest kind of takeaway from from everything, or how did it you know affect you guys the I try not to make it too much about myself, but I'll tell you a story about you uh since we're since we're since we're interviewing you. Yeah. I remember how you got your your call sign, which was Jedi at the time. And we had gone to the industrial district uh where all of their had all those cars that they had been working on, and we found a taxi that had a couple of bullet holes in it. And we went over Yeah, you remember the story good.

SPEAKER_02

I know exactly where you're going with this one.

SPEAKER_01

That's great. So if I remember correctly, you had a little bit of martial arts experience, and we had been, you know, we had always messed around behind the hooch, like wrestling and doing hand-to-hand combat. Everybody was always getting into fights, and I thought that was good, actually, because I I feel like it made it to where putting hands on somebody didn't feel foreign to anybody because we were always doing it. But you showed a little exceptional skill that day because we called around every one of the shop owners. We went in there, they were like, Hey, who the fuck owns this taxi? This young dude comes out and and we're like, hey man, you own this taxi right here. And I don't remember who was speaking Arabic because we didn't have a translator. So I think somebody was reading off.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, we no, no, we did. It was Rocco.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, we did.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you remember I didn't remember having a track.

SPEAKER_01

I remember Rocco. I didn't remember having a translator.

SPEAKER_02

It was it was Rocco, and the kid was yeah, it was like a kid who was like maybe 14, 15 years old.

SPEAKER_01

And I'll I'll elaborate. Yeah, young dude, and there was bullet holes in it. And what was funny is we popped a bullet out of one of the magazines and put it in the bullet hole, and it was the perfect five five six hole, right? It was exact, it was American made hole. And I mean, probably, not that the Iraqis didn't have five five six, but it was likely that this taxi had been shot up, and this guy comes over all proud. Oh, yes, this is my taxi, and he's got his chest all out. And before I could even say anything, because I raised up my hand to like yell something, before I even did that, you blew right past me, grabbed that dude, put him in the arm bar, and bounced his head off the taxi about three times and took him to the ground. And you were like, Is this you, motherfucker? Is this you? And I was like, Oh, and from then on, you were known as Jedi.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was great. Yeah, he well, he is so I remember because Rocco was talking to him and I was standing there, and he was kind of like giving us shit and he was kind of laughing. Yeah, he was laughing at us, yeah. Yeah, he was laughing, and I went, fuck this guy. Because it was literally the next day after Morris got hit and went, fuck this guy. And he thinks it's fucking funny. I was like, I'll show you what's fucking funny, bitch. And I fucking walk up, and that's when I grabbed him. And I remember after I got him on the ground, he started like he was like losing his shit. And Rocco goes, Well, that's what you fucking get laughing at these guys. So is this your fucking tactic? And he goes, No, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But that was that yeah.

SPEAKER_01

He went from laughing to tears very, very fast, and all of a sudden changed his story. And we let it we end up letting him go. And but it was I I just remember you moved like lightning. I was I was like, Oh, well, I'm not involved in this interrogation anymore, sir. Good luck.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I the other thing I remember about that too is I remember it was it was still in the beginning when we had just gotten there. Like, you remember when we first pushed in the the army guys and the the advanced party, like they wouldn't go into the they wouldn't go into the market, like they just drove straight down fucking Michigan and then went straight to where they needed to. And so they weren't used to seeing a lot of Americans in the market. And I remember they were watching us, like pretty much the whole market was watching us, and then I fucking did that and felt like everybody went like, oh shit, we should not be watching this, we're gonna leave.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, it got real quiet, and and we've kept going shop to shop asking some questions, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I I remember that one too, and it kind of makes me laugh. And then I kind of like I feel bad sometimes. Oh, I don't feel that bad, but like think about like a kid was younger than a little bit younger than I was, and I probably would have done the same thing if I would have been so, but I also would have paid the price.

SPEAKER_01

100% would have done the same thing if I was in his shoes, and I yeah, I'd have got my face bounced off the taxi too.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, it was interesting too, because that was the I think that was on the fifth, and so it was right before we got into the the sixth. And so, like, I was thinking, like, was that kind of like a catalyst? But there's no way because they had to have been what happened between that is that was fucking planned out.

SPEAKER_00

So it wasn't just from one, it wasn't just one guy going, oh yeah, we're angry because they that was more than just Ramadi, too. I mean, like it was way more than Maron Ramadi.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, Fallujah popped off at the same time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I I feel like we kind of got screwed with Ramadi because everybody was talking about Fallujah. I was like, well, hate assholes. They're all basically trained wearer in Romadi, and then they're trucking down into Fallujah and they're and so but Fallujah's getting all this press, and then here we are as one marine battalion in a city that's three, four, five times bigger than Fallujah ever will be, and yet here we are trying. Like, like I think about it. Like, there's no fucking way, like manpower-wise, or anything we could have done that was going to be able to control or have really any huge impact on.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, six months after six months after we left, they apparently the Marine Corps agreed with you because they said that it could not be controlled by one battalion and they split it into uh four parts technically. There was three Marine battalions and then the army carved out a piece.

Gallows Humor, Antics, And Coping

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, like I mean, well, if you think about it too, like just manpower wise and how big it is, like you can't you can't watch everything, and it's not we weren't we're not a fucking police force. We're we're we're there to fuck people up. That's what we were supposed to do, not police these fucking people. So yeah, I I just remember that, and then it's weird too. Like we you don't know. I I at least for me, since I was especially just a PFC like a corporal, like I wasn't getting fucking told anything about any of the other shit that's going on. And so then it's like all I know is just this world. Right. No, no idea what the fuck else is going on or what the big picture is or what the fuck we're supposed to be doing. It was just all right, well, we uh get ready because uh they're getting fucked up out there, and yes, you're on nights, but guess where you're gonna be going out.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, with you being on the back of the of the truck the entire time, being a toe gunner and everything, what what as the deployment progressed, do you what do you remember of like having any understanding of what was happening? Or was it quite literally as like I I have no idea what's going on, it's just day-to-day?

SPEAKER_02

A lot of it was day-to-day. I don't know if we really talk about like what the uh the overall plan was. It was just like we we hey, we're gonna go out and we're gonna do whatever sweep or whatever we're gonna be in a blocking position while the line companies are going through this section or whatever. I I don't know if I really got told that, but what I was what I fucking hated was that because I was the only tow gunner, I was stuck in the fucking turret the whole fucking time. And like nobody ever was like, hey, how do you learn how to use this shit? Like, how do I so that way I could at least get down? Not always being a motherfucking turret, but there I was, and you know, like, but no, I didn't really know a lot of what we what we would be doing. It'd be like, oh, or if we were going on a raid, it'd be like, well, you know, you get the raid brief, but it was like, why are we going on this raid? I don't know, because it's important, and then we'd go on a raid and it was usually an empty house or a family sleeping because the neighbor was pissed and wanted one of them out or something like that. But yeah, never really never really knew what we were doing.

SPEAKER_00

You feel like especially going over to the 81s, uh the the way to deploy 81s and the the mechanism of that in the battlefield is so tactically different. And then obviously we weren't even doing that when we were over there. Um but my question is do you think there since you were being brought over and we didn't have an officer? And so even from that strategic level of implement like implementing the tow gun, implementing you as a s as a thing, do you think you were used appropriately?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, probably. Uh was it staff sergeant staff sergeant cook, right? Was our uh platoon commander leader? Yeah, yeah. And he uh I mean he was he was nice and he didn't like treating me like shit or anything like that. But yeah, it's I think so, probably. I mean, because who's who's gonna take over the toe? Like you guys are gonna be like asking me to set up an 81, like I probably could, but would it be quick? No, would I be able to shoot it accurately? Probably not. I mean, I can drop something down the tube, no problem. But the the math and the trigonometry and the FTC, like I don't fucking know shit about that. Just like if you were like if I was to ask you, hey, hop up in this thing and get it cycled for me and bore sight it and make sure that uh the batteries are changed out and that it's you know that it's ready to ready to go. You've been like, fuck you talking about. So and I in that context, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I should have I should have said it better. What what my my my to say it a little bit better is the toe site is a massively powerful um tool on the battlefield for for for what we were trying to do. And uh I I remember and I I wish I could remember it well better to be able to read recount the story, but it would have been early on where you had to say a couple times of like, hey, I'm not in the right spot. Like like I can see way further than what you guys like don't put me on the corner here. Put put you know, I need to be back so I can see. I can I can see a more than a click, guys. You know, and um and that's what I meant by that that switch of like understanding tactically how to deploy something and understanding the capabilities of it. That if you don't really understand it, you don't, you know, you know, you use it as a hammer instead of the chisel that it's supposed to be type thing.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it worked out pretty good in the beginning because Jasper, I I was Jasper McCook was riding in that truck, and so I was able to kind of like be like do the more aggressive thing with like, no, this is not a good spot. I need you to move me. And then he started kind of picking up on it too, where he's like, hey, is this uh does this work or do we need to move? Like, now we need to move, or now this is this is fine, or whatever it happens to be. But then I also had shaky Jake is a driver, and he was uh he was a uh yeah, he was uh he was not a super competent dude, and if the bullets ever started flying, he got even less confident. So, and he would he would also he would uh he would be a little bit of a a pain in the ass too, where I'd be like, hey man, I I need you to move this. No, I'm not moving, like move the fucking truck so I can see, and he'd be like, Okay, well I'm gonna do it, but I don't think we're supposed to be here.

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, I don't if you like what you've heard. This is a multi part episode. Make sure you listen to the rest of the story.