A View from the Arches of Death - Will Nackers (part 2 of 2)

Part 2 with Will Nackers about getting wounded in Ramadi, being evacuated across continents alone, and returning stateside to a system that offered questionable medicine with no follow-up. Humor in the hooch, shifting tactics, near-miss stories, and the weight of legacy close a deep story from this Marine.

• abrupt battlefield evac with no debrief
• wet-to-dry dressings, painful debridement, no PT
• rejoining the platoon
• hooch humor, Xbox, stale brownies
• mortar strikes, tarp roofs, sandstorms, heat
• designated marksman mindset
• javelins, high-back Humvees, adaptation
• breaching plans and Army EOD takeover
• leadership lessons from Sgt Conde
• recognition, reunions, and carrying legacy

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:36

This is part two of our interview with Will Nackers from Mobile Assault 23. Yeah, uh just to pick your brain a little. I mean, that's it's like a week of time. Did you get a chance to talk to anybody, or were you just like literally sitting there by yourself in a rack, like staring at the ceiling, waiting for time to pass?

Missing Stories And Survivor Accounts

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah, exactly that. Like, I don't remember talking to anyone. Um, just the nurses coming in and changing my bandages. Like, that was really it. Um, I do know, yeah, finally getting to the east coast, that's when I think I took my first pain med um because the pain was starting to set in a little bit. But yeah, I don't remember talking to anyone, and I think that was the hard part for me because I was taken away so abruptly and not getting a chance to talk to the guys afterwards. And then even when I got thrown back in the platoon, right? Like, no one's gonna talk about what we had just gone through and you know whose story was what. But that's kind of you know, more towards the end of this thing. But what I appreciate now is hearing everyone's stories and putting the whole picture together and that that 20-year reunion being you know so important that I went to you as well. Um, just hearing things that I never heard about because you know, that day that I got wounded and we got taken off, um, you know, they had other Humvees had pulled out to play to hold security while we attended to Sergeant Connie and get me out of there. Um what that was one of the things that they had told me was as they were waiting, um can't think of his name right now, but he was away from the Humvee and he looked back and realized there was the IED, like the secondary IED, waiting for us, and he saw it buried next to the Humvee, and he told the Marine to get back in and drive to a different location. And as soon as he got in and closed the door, that thing detonated. Um, and he's literally saved that guy's life by just yelling at him, telling him to get back in the Humvee. And a few other things happened. Um, obviously, after I was taken off and um they had to get back to base. So yeah, I didn't I didn't hear you know any of those stories. Um, I didn't get debriefed, even the the horrible you know, mental health stuff that they gave you guys towards the end of your deployment. Like I didn't get any of that. Um it was literally rips from the combat field back into America, and then once I was deemed stable enough from Camp Halton, they're just like go home. I'm like, okay. So going back home for a couple weeks, um, probably not a good idea either.

The Secondary IED And A Life Saved

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Right. Because so you that you you're you're saying that after you had gotten better and were discharged from the hospital, they they said to go home on like a post like for lack of a better word, a post-deployment leave block.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Exactly, like two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Because my parents did fly out, they met me at the hospital in Camp Hamilton. Um, because they were there for whatever random general came to the hospital bed and he pinned on the purple heart um while I'm laying in bed in the hospital, like super unimpersonable, like no idea who this general was. Obviously, that was just his job, right? Any Marine that comes back, they're gonna you know give him purple heart or whatever, but what a shitty job that guy had to do. Um, but yeah, so they did that. My parents were there, and then they're like, Yeah, go home two weeks, come back. Um because I had such a gaping hole in my leg, I had to do, I don't know, you know, being in the medical field now, I don't know if this was the correct thing or just the the military being the military is using me as an experiment, but um I was instructed to do a wet to dry dressing twice a day. So you put a wet dressing on of gauze over the wound, it dries out, you rip that dry dressing off with the uh the theory of it's gonna grow back um new skin every time you rip it off, basically like a scab, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

What? No, that's not appropriate. Yeah. Jesus. Uh yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Uh that for a month, and I mean the wound got smaller, right? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I bet it did. But I think that was just like naturally healing itself, uh, whether I did that or not.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

You were what, 19, 20?

SPEAKER_02 5:32

19.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, it's just the you're an extremely fit 19-year-old, and so you healed in spite of the bullshit that they that they told you to do. Jesus, man, that's terrible. I I continue. I'm sorry. Uh fuck.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Um, but yeah, so I did that for a month. Um and then got sent back to Camp Helden with the wounded platoon, and we were just hanging out until the rest of you guys got back.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Uh yeah, like what did the what did the wounded platoon like what's like was there uh was there a normal day or like did you have responsibilities being being back like that?

Home Too Soon And A Purple Heart

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Uh there was zero accountability. I think we just had to check in in the morning.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

That was it.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Um that's yeah, that was because that was great for everybody's morale, too. I mean, that's just sounds awful.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

I'm talking about yeah, in my head, I'm rolling through like this is the worst mental health uh situation I can imagine. But we've mentioned this before you know on this podcast, but in conversation as well. It was so early in the war that no one knew what to do yet. And so we were the first that had really hit heavy, not the first, but we were in the early version of where all the Marines were getting hurt, so they didn't know what to do with anybody. I don't know if it's any better now, but it it certainly wasn't good then.

unknown 7:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

It sounds like a wrestling. Sounds awful.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah. I was confused, right? Because the first thing I was told was, hey, you're you're good. Like you're not coming, or you're not going home. Um and so yeah, I was like, why am I at home? They said I was supposed to stay there, and then obviously I never went back, but right.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Well, I imagine what you're describing it, there's no way that wound would have healed appropriately had they sent you back to Romadi. Like you certainly couldn't have done wound dressing, you'd end up with some who knows what the fuck bacteria you would have got, and you would have been you would have never healed.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I even obviously once they I took the month to recover that, they sewed it up, and then I still had to you know rehab after that.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

So I was gonna say, how much did they send you to physical therapy and all that?

“Wet To Dry” And Bad Medicine

SPEAKER_02 8:08

No. Um, once they did the month of you know healing it out, then they finally you know sewed it up. And I don't know what two guys were doing this um in the hospital, but it was you know, I was awake, they allegedly used local anesthetic, you know, around the wound, and for whatever reason that stuff like latochine does not work on me. And so I was feeling everything. And what they were doing was burning off the dead stuff, and then they would sew it up as they went. But I was like, hey guys, like I can still feel this. And so they would give me a little more or whatever. I'm like, yeah, nope, still feel it. And so they basically just burned off my skin, sewed it up while I was awake the whole time. And then after that, it was just a matter of you know getting strength back in that leg because it had been so long since I've since I've done anything, and I remember that being like the weakest I've ever been as far as like squatting and all that.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

But yeah. So in general, did they have any follow-up for you? Did you see anybody six, eight weeks out, or did they just release you back and like good luck, we'll we'll see if you have a problem?

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Uh repeat that last thing you said.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Uh I just said, was there any kind of follow-up after that medically at all? Did you have like a six, eight-week follow-up? Did they nothing, or did they just release you back? And like if you have a problem, we'll see eventually.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

No, they just released me back. Um, as soon as you guys got back, I literally got thrown back into the platoon. And I remember like within a couple days, we were already going on you know, long hikes with all of our gear and stuff. So yeah, there was zero. Like I was just going to the gym on my own, like just trying to get the my leg stronger.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

And did you end up with any residual deficits? Or are you you good now? I mean, I know you have a very physically active job now, so do you have any issues?

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Um, I still have the pretty much as a a little hole there. Um, you can see the scar in my knee, but other than my left leg will get a little numb if I'm like running for a long period of time or something like that. But yeah, nothing other, nothing too crazy.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, that's I mean, of all the things that's not terrible, but that still sucks.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Right. So just just just for clarity, I mean, so they you had about, I mean, early, I mean, this is July 1 that this would have happened, right? So we didn't get back until the end of September. So we're talking like three months of you basically needing to figure it all out yourself once you know, less than two weeks or so of transition from Iraq back to the naval hospital hospital.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Man, that's crazy. Were you able to go ahead?

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Other than like the initial them telling me I have to do the wet to dry dressings and then the surgery of sewing it back together, that was pretty much the extent of you know me going to the hospital or seeing anyone. I think they probably gave you antibiotics too, but I mean I mean sure they did.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, I can't imagine they didn't, or at least while you were in the hospital, they probably gave you some stuff.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah, I think I remember taking these pills twice a day or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Were you able to contact your parents on your between Iraq and the seeing them at the naval hospital, or was that the first time that you guys linked up?

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah, I don't remember the first time I was able to like phone call home. If it was in Camp Hellington or sometime between uh Baghdad and uh Germany.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Uh that's right.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

I was I always said they knew about it because they had to fly from you know Wisconsin to California.

Wounded Platoon And No Plan

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Well, they reach out. Um, I just wasn't we've talked before about how you know we would try to, if you got hurt, you try to let your parent know if you could. That way they didn't because they didn't usually get all the information correct in the first place. Unfortunately, my parents got a phone call. I didn't know that they were gonna call them from when I got hurt, and so the way that it was described to them, I was hurt a little bit worse than I actually was, and so that was a stressful time for them.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

So yeah, I think that's probably what happened to me too.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Not that I remember so So you said so the the we get back, and I mean we have uh we weren't back for very long and then we went on post-deployment leave ourselves. Did you go on a a second round of post-deployment leave when everybody else did too?

SPEAKER_02 13:07

No, I didn't I didn't. Um I remember you guys got back, you went on your leave, and then you know came back to work essentially.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

That's fair. It sounds like you might be going you get you get stuck on duty Do you get stuck on duty every other day? Because that's what I would imagine.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Yeah, but they didn't have us do anything. Like uh who who was it that lost his eye pretty early on?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Warth? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Warth. Like I remember him being there and a couple other guys, but yeah, at that time it really wasn't me. I guess there was a lot of wounded at that point that probably would have been sent back.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah, I mean there's a handful of there's a handful of people I can think of just off, you know, early days from weapons company, even like Warth, Holm, Hurley, uh Cohen from My Platoon. Regelsberger. Well, Regelsberger stayed in the hospital quite a long time, but oh wait, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Yeah, he was really hurt. You're right.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Yep. Huh. Well, let's get you off of the uh terrible reliving all of your medical trauma. Uh thank you for sharing all that, because that's you honestly, now that I'm thinking about it, you're the first person we've talked to that was evaced off the battlefield, and I don't think I knew all the steps. I mean, I kind of did. I knew you'd fly to Baghdad, you fly to Germany, but I didn't I don't know. In my head, I envisioned there would be more communication, and I don't know why I thought that. I should know that the Marine Corps never does that.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah, and I don't I don't know that they knew what they were doing. It's like, you know, like a couple of the guys who did get wounded, uh, I mean, Sergeant Gandhi initially being shot in the shoulder. I mean, he just hung out with us the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

And finally he got to the point where you know he couldn't lift his arm anymore and he had to take a break, but and then I have no idea where Cummings went. I don't even think he put them back down and then ended up coming back.

Surgery Awake And DIY Rehab

SPEAKER_00 15:15

So Yeah, I don't have any idea. Yeah, that's that's crazy. I mean, the only other person we talked to who had anything, and definitely not even close to the same, but Fuente has got some kind of thing in his in his eye and got evaced and then came back. And his story's crazy too. No one helped him or talked him through anything, and he fucking basically hitchhiked a ride back to Ramadi on his own. Uh so there was no like no organization or communication either.

unknown 15:44

No.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Well, let's try some happier times. Do you remember anything about uh about good times with your platoon while you were deployed over there? Anything you guys were doing around the hooch or anything else?

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Uh no, we were always messing around, right? Like because laughter, as we know, being in a stressful field, is definitely one of the best things you can do. And we're always messing around, you know, picking on whoever. Um, thank goodness we had a cox in our platoon because he was always a character jokes or you know, stealing stuff from other platoons or the army. Um acquiring things, right? Like TVs and Xboxes or whoever, whatever it was. Um I remember playing Xbox a lot, just hanging out in the hooches or whatever. Umnie challenges. Um, I think this is after Cummings got shot. But he tried, you know, eating more brownies than the other guy. Like whoever whoever got sent brownies for a care package were like, hey, instead of everyone, you know, sharing these, why doesn't someone just try to eat the whole thing on their own?

SPEAKER_03 17:06

That's a true course. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

Yeah, I forget who his challenger was, but eventually they were spawning it all.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, yeah. And since we didn't have any kind of fucking decent food ever, eating that kind of net like heavy ass sugar load, I'm sure you threw up anyway.

unknown 17:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Well, I I remember I got baked goods quite a few times from my grandma. And unless somebody else had a better packaging system, by the time they got to us, they were so goddamn stale because they were got, you know, they would get re-baked every time they were outside, you know, it they're being sent over in uncontrolled environments, and so right. They were so freaking stale, delicious, stale.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

But yeah, don't television this, but somehow he got banana chocolate or chocolate covered bananas, and they were like intact. And I definitely stole a lot of those things, but he wasn't looking.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Because coming coming from Wisconsin, I had a really bad sweet too.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Those chocolate covered bananas were the best thing in her body that I ever ate, I think. That's all I remember.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

That's fucking hilarious. Did you have somebody sending you a lot of precare packages?

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Yeah, my mom and dad definitely sent me a lot. Um I know my dad would send me you know the good stuff, like the cigarettes. Um my mom tried sending the chocolates, like you said, by the time they usually got there, it was just a pile of games. That was just unedible.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Well, not uneditable, just yeah, I was gonna say it's more of a challenge.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Well, yeah, yeah. Like it was it got that bad, like this doesn't even taste good.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah, I told you like the the tough times of being a Romani, right? Like we had what uh canvases for a roof or tarps. And I don't think anyone ever realizes that. Like we were just sleeping underneath a tarp while we're constantly getting mortared and you know being shot at by rockets. And I know one of the nights I was just dreaming, and in my dream, um, I'm in a house and this house starts exploding, and I wake up and obviously we're being hit by mortars or rockets, and one of those mortars hit right outside the wall next to my my head. And you know, we went outside and looked at it, and it completely destroyed the air conditioning. Um like luckily you just hit outside the wall, right? If it would have been three feet in, like it would have landed right on me.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

So yeah, you guys being the being the last hooch on the the line, you got hit by four or five that hit right against the wall.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah, exactly. I mean, think about that. Yeah, we were the unfortunate ones at the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

I mean, a couple people got hit multiple times, but I feel like you guys had a few. You had one that actually hit a truck and then you had multiple times hit the wall.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Yeah. Yeah. No, so it's just dreaming.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

What'd you guys play on what'd you guys play on Xbox? I don't remember you. See, what's funny is you guys all say you had an Xbox. I don't remember you having an Xbox.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Oh, maybe we kept it a secret though.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Uh I think it was just Halo.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Nice. No, what I do remember is coming over every night for I don't know, like a week, and we watched that there was a sci-fi series called Firefly back then. Some goofy ass show. And I I remember everybody was like, there was like 20 of us glued to a tiny ass laptop screen, and we were all as close as possible, and you could barely hear it, but we were still all like laughing our ass off watching this stupid space western. Yeah, who was it was a crazy gunny we had always yelling at us for being like complacent and you talk about your your platoon commander?

SPEAKER_02 21:38

No, I was like weapons company gunny.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Oh, Gunny Maraki?

Parents, Calls, And Mixed Messages

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Yeah. I remember one of those days you were getting mortared and walking back from the jaw hall, and I was just continuing to walk back to the jaw hall or back to the hooch. And I got yelled at. He's like, why didn't you run to the the bunker and take shelter? I was like, uh no reason, gunny, like just you know, don't care or whatever. And I got lit up for that. And I I guess you know, being in his eyes, like he doesn't want to lose breeze for no stupid reason. Just me not understanding that at the point at the time. Um and another time he yelled at me because I was walking back to the jaw hall. And there was a aluminum can in the road and I walked by it and he saw me. He's like, hey Maureen, why don't you pick up that can?

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Uh like I'm not reasoning, guy. And he's like, that's integrity.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Like, make sure you pick that can up, like, knowing obviously maybe he thought I wasn't gonna pick it up because no one was around, but I guess that was my first lesson of you know integrity and him telling me about that aluminum can sitting there.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

I mean, while we did police call hurricane point, probably more than we should have, that whole fucking city was covered in trash. You were probably desensitized by that point.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Yeah, that's your right.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Uh that's crazy, man. And so I don't I'm trying to remember when you came to the unit. Were you were you late to us, or did you come right after Okinawa, like in August?

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah, I was one of the brand new guys. So I was boot camp, school of infantry. I got to 2-4, and we deployed what, a month after that?

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah. Wow. So then you so then you got to stick around for the next deployments, the next two. So you did three deployments probably.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Yeah, we did. Okinawa, and then we went back to uh Iraq to marijuana.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Barwana, I need the gym.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Did you just do the one tour too, or did you stay in longer than that?

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Yeah, I did my four years. I had gone in with the idea of you know doing 20 and retiring. Um after that second Iraq deployment and never having deal dealt with the emotions of everything. It was never about us dying. It was about I don't want to see another Maria get hurt.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

So I think that pretty much forced me out.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah.

unknown 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

I mean obviously I did four years and got out too. And uh that's uh that's definitely a sentiment shared by a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Were you saying something about Easy Street?

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Obviously, Easy Street was Yeah, Easy Street was you know April 6th. Um there's a street named Easy Street in CB Valley, California. And every time I go by that that street name, like it triggers me a little bit, and it takes me a second to be like Easy Street, like why why is Easy Street triggering me? It's like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yeah, it's strange how your uh your brain makes connections sometimes and for really no reason. For me, it's uh a lot of times it's uh those smells, especially especially when uh we go out to Vegas in the summer and it's and that open sewer hot smell. Yeah, that's uh brings me back to uh memories. Oh yeah. But uh I was gonna ask you know, after after April, then the big battles, you know, you were you kind of jumped straight to July. There during that in-between time, there was a lot of uh you know, as we said before, it's you know, day taskable, night taskable, QRFs and and whatnot. But uh we did a lot of runs out to different bases and stuff like that. Do you have any any memories of uh hitting any of the bases around and any of the specific missions of escorting anybody?

Hooche Life, Humor, And Xbox

SPEAKER_02 26:12

That's what sounds shame. Like I really don't remember anything between April and July. Um few recollections of the army shooting at us um with abroads and like actually shooting at us with like the tank. Um yeah, other than that, it was really I think kind of run-of-the-mill stuff. Um actually didn't come to mind being an O351, an anti-tank assaultman, right? Like that was my MOS, that's what I got trained to do. And part of that is you get the small rocket, you get the javelin missile, and you get C4. Well, going through training with C4 was like that was one of the funnest times I've had because essentially in the end of the class, the instructor was like, I taught you a few different skills, but you can do whatever you want with C4. Like, your mind is your imagination. It's like, oh, this is great, like we can take C4 and do whatever we want. Like, we were we were preachers, right? You know, if you look all the way back to World War II, Vietnam, those were the guys that were clearing Constantino Wire, they were the ones with the torches, uh the flamethrowers. But now, you know, back in 2004, we're you know, small town Iraq, you know, there really wasn't much work for creatures. So um, and it was unfortunate by time I got wounded instead of home. You know, I didn't get to use a javelin at all. Um and then I remember hearing back from those guys, I think I called them a few times, but like, yeah, we've we finally fired a javelin, and I get one of the people IDs, and like, oh man, like so bummed I wasn't there to get to shoot that. But then you fast forward to like Ukraine and we're giving them out for free. Um kind of disheartening, but anyways, we were we were meant to be preachers, right? And remember we had shotguns with um special shells to preach doors and all this stuff, and we did do quite a few you know raids in the night, you know. I remember Intel, you know, giving us names or whatever, and we haven't go to those houses and try and find them, and realizing pretty quickly that Intel is really not smart at all. Um but one of the nights, they're like, all right, this is this is the night, like we need to there's a gate we have to get through, we're gonna breach it. Like I was gonna be the one with the C4. We're gonna go up, reach the gate, you know, and then go into the house. And then, like, right before we're about to step off, they're like, take the C4 away. They're like, nah, you're not doing this. Um, we got army in EOD that's gonna do it. Like, you gotta be kidding me. Like, all this training, all this workup, finally get to do my job, and you just punted it off to the army.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Fucking cock blocked by the army.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Right. Which was probably the smarter choice.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Well, I I am curious, how were you gonna do it?

SPEAKER_02 29:30

How was I gonna breach the gate?

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah, yeah. What were you gonna use? You need a whole block of C4, we're gonna wrap it in deck cord, what were you gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Oh, yeah, it was a C4 deck cord. I was gonna strap it to the gate and walk away.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Nice. Did you have a whole block of C4 or did you had you cut it down?

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Uh I think they just gave me a box.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

I probably I was probably gonna use the whole box.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

And possibly why they decided to be like, you know what? You know what, we're gonna. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

And uh I think it that was probably the same night that that's the house we put to. Like they reached the gate, we go in, and like in, you know, there's nothing. Just obviously the mail in the house and has no idea what's going on, no weapons. So there was definitely a lot of that you know in between that point.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Yeah, it seemed like there was a time somewhere there in the middle, and I don't know the exact time frame, but they were paying for tips, right? And people were just snitching on their neighbors that they didn't like. Yeah, exactly. And we'd go and fuck up some of their shit, and they'd, you know. Which ended up being stupid because then we would pay the homeowner for anything we broke. And so really, like, they're trying to punish their neighbor, and we ended up giving them free money.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

So those doors we I mean, we were giving a lot of money for way, way more than that door was worth.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Yeah.

Mortars, Tarps, And Near Misses

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Like a couple a couple hundred dollars for the thing. It was like the equivalent of like a couple thousand dollars. But anyway. What do you remember of uh some of the early early transitions? So, you know, we got we got over there and uh we didn't have a whole lot of our own stuff tactics and and whatnot. Do you have any memories of uh how any of that shifted, how you guys deployed yourselves differently as you uh had your engagements?

SPEAKER_02 31:28

I mean as far as like when we were there or like leading up to the well, so here's like an example that a lot of people said, like kind of like you were saying, it seemed run of the mill until about April happened, and then it seemed like a lot of people were like, oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

I probably need to do XYZ different. So for my example personally, I only carried six mags uh up until April 6th. And after that, I carried as many mags as I could physically carry on myself and get my hands on, and I had more loaded mags in the truck uh because six mags was not it strangely didn't last very long.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Yeah, I don't know if it was just me or but I never again I only had six mags with me.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Really?

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Um but I I think because I was given the ACOC, my specific mission was more of a sniper role, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah, you you felt like a designated marksman essentially.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yeah, so I think in my head I wasn't I'm not laying down suppressing fire by any means. And so even like the day that we took you know contact on the left and everyone was laying down suppressive fire, I was specifically looking for targets and not just you know firing off my weapon. So I think I had more discipline, I guess, in the sense of I'm not just gonna shoot it at random. I think he's there.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

I'm gonna have an actual target that I can see. I know Sledgehammer really focused on getting overwatch like hard. Like anytime that we had any kind of we knew we were gonna be anywhere for any period of time, we would make sure that we've got our ACOG up top. Was that the case for you guys too?

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Did you uh Yeah, that definitely was. And so whether I was you know disengaging in the initial assault and then trying to get you know somewhere up top quickly, and then using by that time, you know, Nick Kelly would have motived down with the Mark 19 or Pepper with the 50 cal.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

So did you g did you go on like with the same person most of the time? Did you have a a process or was it just whoever else was with you? You just ran up to the highest point you could.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Yeah, I don't specifically remember you know who it was, whether it was Vigil or um, you know, Sergeant Gondi a few times. Um but rolling back, you know, just you know, giving more props to Sergeant Connie and his leadership, you know, being a brand new Marine, I got meritoriously promoted in boot camp to PFC. I got meritoriously promoted to Lance Corporal at School of Infantry, and you know, I get to Sergeant Connie and Weapons Company, and we go for a hike, and basically he made me realize like, hey, you're nothing. Like you if you're not you know physically in shape, you're not motivating, you're your guys, you know, you're not a leader essentially, and he was the best at you know displaying that lead by example and all that stuff. So they had recently gone through training, whether it was him or a few other guys, you know, from map three, but they had that close combat uh quarters training. Um I don't know if he did that too.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

But they some of it came from Gunny Mararki, but I think with Condi specifically, because he came from security forces, he had gone through a few more advanced schools than than other people did.

Tactics, Breaching, And The Jobs Not Done

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Yeah, I think it might specifically him. But yeah, so he had all that knowledge and you know he trained us very well for just you know the muscle memory of things. And I think that was another reason why I think I didn't um waste a lot of my ammo a lot of times just because you know, even like a tactical reload, right? Like making sure you always have more rounds in the chamber when you can. Um I remember thinking in my head, I'm like, if I did need more you know, magazines, like I'm supposed to reload these things from the ammo can in my magazine, like that's gonna take forever. Um so I try to keep it I guess the shooting to a minimum to make sure I knew cold shooting that. And I forget how many guys or I think we all did we put the five tracer rounds at the top. So when we were doing night missions, um we knew like where you were shooting at.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

I had mags loaded specifically like that, yeah. Yeah, and not not all of my mags were that way, because you know, I mean the the old adage was tracers work both ways. They show everybody where you are and show them where you're shooting.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah, yeah. I had a sp I had a very I had a I had my own count of how I had mine. And so I like to have three at the end. So I had a reminder that I was running out. I know Gunny was always honest that you should know what your count is, but I I didn't count. And I just needed when I saw tracers coming out.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

I feel like it what's funny is now this gets into like almost superstition because it seems like everybody had a different little thing. Because Randall had a thing where he was like every third round was a tracer or whatever. He had some other weird thing that he had in his mind, which I don't know. Anyway, it worked, didn't matter what it was, it worked for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

I also had one dedicated uh magazine completely filled with tracers, and I and I had that one because I got stuck one time trying to explain where I wanted everybody to shoot, and like for whatever reason, people would not listen to where I was, anyways, and so I was like, had and then I did use it a couple times. I was like, this one and watch the tracers there, shoot there, yep, so right.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

No, yeah, I think I just kept to the standard of put five at the top.

SPEAKER_03 37:31

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Um yeah, I was always very in my head focused about you know clearing rooms and you know being the designated marksman, but those were kind of my tactics that I was just focused on.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

It sounds like you spent most of the time as a dismount. Did you ever switch it up? You ever riding the gun or drive at all?

SPEAKER_02 37:52

No, because I think also being a 51, you know, being close to the javelin or having to use that if we needed to.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yeah. Um that being my other responsibility, so actually I'm curious, and you may be able to answer that, or maybe you may you may not remember, but so I was I was a tow gunner. We didn't have tow missiles when we first got there. We didn't get them until the seventh. So the firefight happened on the sixth, then all of a sudden on the seventh we got tow missiles. Did you guys start out with javelin missiles or did you get them afterwards?

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Yeah, I want to say we definitely got them once we were established in Ramadi. Like we definitely did not have them going into Ramadi.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Yeah, I think I remember them showing up and everyone was like so impressed. Like, this is a hundred thousand dollar missile, like you're not even gonna touch it.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

But yeah, we strapped it to the top of our homevees so they could be shot at.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Yep. Here's this$150,000,$200,000 uh site, and here's this$100,000 missile, please shoot at it. I think I remember somebody dropping a javelin unit off the bridge one time, too, and breaking the site. So we definitely uh did our damage of uh the javelin system.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

No, there's the the tough times of body, you know. Everyone, a lot of guys talk about being in the highbacks of Humbies, like the ones from original Desert Storm or whatever you want to call it. And originally going in with the mindset of, you know, we're gonna make friends with these people, you know. So we didn't really think too much about armor on the Humvees until we started getting hit by IEDs and like this isn't really fun.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

Yeah.

Ammo Discipline And Overwatch

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Um so yeah, just being in a high back with zero support around us on the sides, and just being the normal you know, sheath of a Humvee vehicle. And then at some point, you know, we put at least sandbags in the bottom of it to help absorb it a little bit, but yeah, just the just all that, like going into that Romati and nothing not really knowing what we were getting into, and them actually adapting quite well to our tactics and how we do things.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Yeah, uh the enemy was anything but stupid. They definitely watched.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah, for sure. Um I remember one of our night missions when we went out, uh, I think it was on a full moon. But I did have I don't remember the name of the NPG that I had, but it was just the the single one of one of the eyes. And we had Neil as our driver, and he was just that marine that you know no one liked. He was always a mess up, could never get his shit together. Um, whatever reason he was driving. Like, it's like what skill do we get this guy that he's not gonna kill us or himself? And I guess driving was the safest thing for him.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

I was gonna say, I don't know if that's the case, but that's uh yeah, I can see how that decision would be made.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Right. But anyway, so we're going out on this night mission and night mission, and um, I got my MVGs on and we leave the gate. And I really can't see anything with my MVGs. And so I take them off because it's a full moon, I'm like, oh maybe I'll see better with just the natural light. And again, like still can't see anything, just the reflection of the moon and the light. And so I'm like, if I can't see anything, like I know Neil can't see anything. And so I sit, I sat right behind him, and I was like, Neil, like, do you see anything? He's like, no, I'm like, are you serious? Like, you're just hauling, we're going like 55 down this road, and he can't see anything. And then shortly after that, we end up like missing the road and going into the median where there had been a previous IED detonation, and there was a huge divot in the road, and so we hit this thing. Luckily, we didn't flip the Humvee, or you know, no one got ejected. But he slams on the brakes. I remember Sergeant Connie ripped him out, threw him on the ground, was screaming at him. Uh the other guy jumped in and started driving. Yeah, like just like those things. Like if it wasn't the enemy killing us, it was you know us doing not so tactically smart decisions.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Yeah. We had a way.

unknown 42:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

So back kind of going back to some of the hooch life stuff. Uh, did you have did you have a couple people that you uh tended to try to play the Xbox with or try to go to the gym or chow with in particular?

SPEAKER_02 43:07

No, I remember like we were the new group, so it was me, Kelly, Gentile, um, Cummings, uh, Daniels. We were all the boots that came together. And so I think we just hung out. If we weren't being hazed by the senior Marines. Um, probably like Kelly was talking about, like, we probably just tried to hide as much as we could to stay away from the riffraff.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

But hazing's just another say way of saying I love you.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

It was nothing horrible. It was just the typical good stuff. Uh the famous picture I remember, you know, we all I think Cox made the death dealer's sign on the piece of wood.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

And we all had our shirts off and we took the bigger photo of that.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Uh I think which ensued into some type of wrestling match after. Um there was always a lot of those, right? Guys wanting to fight each other.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

You gotta get out that testosterone somehow, man.

Javelins, High-Backs, And Adaptation

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Yeah, exactly. Keeping your skills up. No, they're definitely the sitting up on the like being on Haditha Dam and going up. The dam on the bridge, just overwatch on those nights. Like those are always for a reason interesting. Um, I don't think they're ever really dull. One time I was up there with Gentile and he said he had to take a shit, and I was like, Ah, go for it. And he obviously leans out over the railing to do it. He's like, Man, I forgot that you pee when you you know take a shit. So he essentially, you know, gets all over his pants. I was just laughing hysterically after he had told me that.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Uh it's funny, uh, those are the things that I miss. I don't know about you, but it's stupid shit like that. That's that's really funny.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

Yeah, I don't remember. Uh I do remember going to the gym a few times. Um being like it was just super hot in there and miserable. But I don't remember making that like a regular habit.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah, there were some dudes who went every day and some guys who gained weight even while we were over there and got bigger. And uh that that certainly wasn't me.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

But uh yeah, that was probably a more appropriate response to the cortisol buildup than the stress response.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Yeah, definitely definitely was a more mature response.

unknown 45:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

Um yeah, the the heat in general, I do remember driving and just feeling like we're in an oven. And it was like that that hot. And we did we had a couple what just come through um just complete blackout with the sand and the windstorm. So those were actually pretty interesting to go through.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Yeah, I remember the one that the windstorm came through and then it rained behind it, and so it was literally raining mud.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Yeah, and growing up in the desert, because I do grow up. I grew up in the desert. I remember making all my guys wear face masks and not breathe in the dirt. And I remember going to, I don't remember which platoon it was. I think it was map one, maybe. I don't really remember, but they didn't do that, they were all out running around in it like idiots and breathing in all that shit, and all of them got just ridiculously sick. They're all coughing up all kinds of green shit for a week. And I was like, Yeah, man, it's dirt. There's you're not supposed to breathe that in. Well, dude, we're getting on uh getting on a couple hours. You got any uh the other reflections you can think of?

Night Driving Blind And Close Calls

SPEAKER_02 47:08

Um no, I just want to point out the fact like I know you guys are doing this, and I think this is really great, and I appreciate you guys doing it. Um, but just the fact that it's been like what we went through didn't really get recognized. Actually, I have a new guy working for working for me right now, and my driver mentioned you know, I was in Ramadi or whatever, and he's like, and he was like, Yeah, you're in Ramadi. I was like, Yeah, you've heard of it. Um he's like, Yeah, of course. I was like, Oh, you probably heard about the time of you know Jocko Willings and him being there and all this stuff. And I was like, Yeah, I was there before you know all the cool guys showed up. And you know, we were there when you know, I think I would say the worst of it for sure. And you just you look at our statistics, right? And us to this day being the the company that lost the most Marines, had the most wounded since Vietnam. I think that says a lot. Um, not that we were incapable of you know the mission tactics at hand, but that's just the the difficulties we were dealing with and the changes of war that we were dealing with. Um and I can't think of you know a better group of guys that I have not seen since that point that point of just the leadership that I saw, um everyone helping each other out. And one of the things that still sticks in my head today is one of the times we were at you know the the police station, we started taking fire from one of the buildings, and it was as soon as we heard the shots, every single marine turns in that direction, goes in that direction, and is returning fire. And those are the things that you know you just can't really teach and you can't train. And I don't think you're gonna get a better group of guys for that time frame to have gone through all that. And hearing stories of some of these young Marines that are just getting out now or have gotten out, and the Marine Corps just seems so boring right now, and the lack of leadership. So I feel like the time frame that we went through is just it does need to be brought up, and you know, we should make sure this story gets out and people know about it. Um, because I'm super proud about it, and you know, everyone that we've served with and carrying on the legacy of those guys, and you know, Sergeant Connie, I'd definitely do that with him because he meant a lot to me and you know everyone that you know lost their lives. And again, that that 20-year reunion that we went to like that was very beneficial for me. And I wish I had gone to the 10-year one, but we'll definitely go to the 30-year one again, just you know, being with all you guys and hearing the stories, and again, still hearing different views that I haven't even heard about, you know, 20 years later. So yeah, I wanted to kind of leave with that. And again, thank you guys. Um, how'd you come up with constant combat? How did you name the podcast?

SPEAKER_00 50:04

That's that's a very good question. We threw around about 50 different ideas, and uh, we wanted something simple that would uh be lightly eye-catching, but also also be accurate. Uh, if you look at the statistics, there was a small skirmish almost every other day uh for somebody in weapons company. Uh as far as incoming fire coming in, there was incoming fire a minimum of three times a week, and most weeks it was four times a week. Uh, there was always somebody engaged from weapons company basically every single day. And so it seemed like the most uh appropriate title at the time.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

Yeah, I definitely can get behind that.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

I do remember the sign, the big sign that complacency kills.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

Yeah, yeah, picture right in front of the COC. I have a picture of that.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

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