Surrounded - Joseph Herscher (part 2 of 2)

Part two with Joe Herscher from Rainmaker Platoon, moving from firefights and improvised humor to the hard road of leaving war, finding sobriety, and building a life that serves others. What sounds like a short story is a life time of change and cultivated rehabilitation, and a story about healing.

• remembering Savage and the chaos of May 12th 
• field versus garrison Marines
• life in the hooch, gym time, and a drink from the river
• IED sweeps, Oliver North sightings, up‑armor saves 
• sniper media anger and shifting to OP missions 
• coming home to silence and heavy drinking 
• meds without support
• relapse, rehab, and choosing sobriety 
• The 2 J's: Jessica and Jesus
• staying connected and helping Marines who struggle

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:36

This is part two of our interview with Joe Hersher from Rainmaker Platoon.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Thankfully he liked me anyway, but he didn't like the leilong. What happened to Gunny Murray? Where's he at?

SPEAKER_02 0:50

He is still in California. Uh he was working with uh veterans in like a wounded warrior kind of thing. Not for wounded warrior, but like for some something, an organization like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

That's awesome. Yeah, yeah. He was he was a maniac, he knew every single weapon system. I mean, I'd pick his brain about stuff all the time. He's unreal.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Yeah. Yeah, he was great. It's funny because he did not know anything about the toe. And uh he would never admit that. He would never admit that. But he would he would talk like he knew something about the toe, and I'd be like, no, no, no, Gunny, that's not that's not correct. And he would get really pissed off anytime I'd correct him.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

But uh but it is wire guided, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Damn, man. That was a good one. I hadn't heard that one before. No, at least I don't remember it. I didn't know that at all. Yeah, yeah, that was unpleasant.

Remembering Savage And May 12

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, and then from there, you know, I remember um just small skirmishes here and there throughout um I the the uh savage day. That was that was a rough one. For everybody I know a lot of people talked about that one, but I was um well you do you remember the date on that one? May 12th. May 12th, yeah. And I was on the Mark 19. I was like rear vehicles, um, rear security. And so I hadn't even come around the corner yet, and when that hit, and then we eventually drove around the corner and I was ready to rock, seeing looking for people running through fields or anything. But um, yeah, that was that was chaos that day. And um, I remember the vehicle being, I believe it had slid down into like mud too, into this embankment. And uh the vehicle was stuck down there, everybody was piling out, and yeah, Regelsberger got hurt pretty bad that day, too. He did, yeah, very much so. And then um that one hit hard. I I was I was really good friends with Savage. Um, you know, we'd we'd party a few times and uh a lot of times. And um and he's just he's such a funny guy, he's awesome, just straight Tennessee boy, and uh straight Southern same, you know, like McLeod type mentality too with that uh that toying. And then uh, but he was just I mean, he's such a good guy and genuinely cared. And you know, he was like I said, he was a savage on the gun, too. He was the first to fire almost every time we got in a firefight. He was ready to rock. And uh yeah, that one hit hard. I had just taken a picture of him too, like the day a few days before that, and um yeah, I still have that up on my on my thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Yeah, he's an interesting fella in that uh when you met him before that, before Ramadi, he was no nobody would have been like, here's our exemplary marine, right? He was never he was never the biggest, he was never the fastest, he wasn't he his field day inspection failed most of the time, his uniform definitely didn't always look the best, right? Like I can say I can say a million bad bad marine things, right? But they're stupid things, they're things that don't matter.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

All garrison shit, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Yeah, right. Yeah, they're think they're things that don't matter. But when it comes to when it comes to heart, he definitely had that when he and you're right, like just super friendly. Uh never a time that I when he was around that I ever felt like we we could have talked for hours about all kinds of stupid shit.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah, he's just a funny dude, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and you have so many of those that just just in combat whipped it on. I mean, that's what we trained for, right? That's what we yeah, that's what that's what we do, and they just yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

It has to be really hard for leadership. I you know, I never I never think about this kind of stuff, but I'm gonna start asking them like, how do you walk that line between keeping a field marine and keeping a garrison marine? Because like some of your garrison marines shit themselves and are worthless once you get over there, yeah. And you need these field marines, but the field marines are fucking terrible for good order and discipline. So how do you keep the crime from not spreading?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Right, absolutely. I'd love to know that the answer because I'm you know, I was on the latter end of that, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

No, weapons company had its sure fair share of uh field marines, that is for sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Absolutely, yeah, yeah. I don't remember like you know, going back to Okinawa, I don't remember wearing clothes very much in the barracks.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

There's about 10 people in 81s that almost never wore clothes. Yeah, I I know two of them are on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Pretty much just always walk around drunk and naked in the barracks.

unknown 5:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

Good times. Um it's the best way to be, Nyland. You just don't you just don't understand the uh the particulars of being in 81s, yeah, and the freedom.

Field Marines Versus Garrison Marines

SPEAKER_01 5:58

You know, it's just true freedom. Yeah, no, yeah. Um in between there, me and I, you know, every day we we pretty much had you know small skirmishes, not every day, but uh quite a bit. Small skirmishes and um getting hit with ID. We got hit with so many IDs, and then we were doing those ID sweeps so the truck wouldn't get that, which means go get hit with an ID so we don't. Yeah. So much fun. And then um, yeah, and doing uh day task school, you know, Oliver hauling all Oliver North around a few times. And um, that was good times. And coming back and just getting swell, you know. I remember uh I was always in the gym. So we'd come back and your adrenaline's just going so hard. Um, and you you just jacked up, even when you don't get in a firefight, you know, anytime you cross that line, you're ready to rock. You see that sign? Complacency kills every time you look at a thing and you're just you're ready, you're in the mode, and you get back in adrenaline, it's just full tilt, and you go to the gym and just and get swallow. Um there may have been some illicit substances running around, allegedly. Um some some uh yeah, some enhancement. And um, but so supplements from GNC.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Supplement exactly. We we we got some GNC supplements. So um, and I remember I can remember going to combat outposts, and uh, you know, a lot of us were were huge at that point too, and uh going to combat outposts, and everybody's you know, they're hiking around, they're humping around. Everybody's sucked up eating. I was eating like five MREs a day, like 20,000 calories. It uh what I remember rolling up and it was like slow motion, like cue the scene. We'd come out of the Humvees, then we'd step out slow motion to like the foot hitting the sand. And we're huge, no neck. I remember just like coming out huge. I've been working traps for eight days. So how do these guys keep getting bigger? Uh so ridiculous. And uh yeah, and then watching movies. Uh, we got a lot of movies from the movie guy. And um yeah, and then just always keeping ackles out of the bathroom. It was like he didn't care. In fact, he was always in the jack shack, and so we we like we in fact, one time we we took pepper spray. Um, somebody had pepper spray, and we hit the toilet seat over there with it, and we knew he was gonna go in there, and and Hodges and I didn't, and he went back in there and he was doing his business, and we were ooh, ooh, ow, but he he didn't get off the toilet, he just he still finished. I can't disguise the scene. I'm like, it didn't do anything, and then he took a shower and it was like burning more because the hot water hit like we had hot water that day. And then I remember um we hit we hit a few people with the pepper spray. Like, you know, if we ever got hot water, somebody'd be in there, like, oh my god, thank God we get to go shower in the hot water, and Hodges and I go in there and spray pepper spray, and it would just like be airborne at that point with the steam, but just absolute terrible human beings. Like my only solace is this hot shower and we have pepper spray.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

I I don't think was there any hooch where anybody like ever actually used the bathroom as a bathroom? I don't think we I don't think anybody was allowed to, right? Like it was a jack shack in every hooch, and there was a different sign in every hooch, like what you had to do. Some had a sign out, some had a sign that said occupied, like there was all kinds of shit. There was always something.

Barracks Culture And Coping Humor

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Absolutely, yeah. And I'd go in and I'd I'd go like I'd get bored and I'd go like hooch to hooch and just say hi to everybody. And uh yeah, I could remember it was always different. I'd like, let me see the let me see what's going on back here. Yeah, and I remember I was right in the back because I was right by the bathroom. So, and then I had all of it, it was ridiculous. So I'd have to unload every the truck every night, unload the mark off of there, take all the ammo out. So I had all those ammo cans, and I had like a little nest of 40 mic mic and then all the other ammo that was in our home. Nice, and uh yeah, so I could creep out, nobody'd see me, and I'd screw with people in there, and then I'd creep back into my rack. Evil. Um, and then we I remember we built the um built a little smoke shack out back that was pretty sweet. Had that set up and we'd throw knives back there. That was good times. And then my mom was on uh WGN and she called in one time and then she was like a recurring person. It was like this marine mom update she was doing. Really? Yeah, and she's on WGN. So they she they asked the listeners to like send in things to our address. So they were like sending beef jerky and books. She's like, they really want books, they want to read books. So like, did you realize we're like a marine infantry unit, right? Like we want movies, DVDs. So all of the people like, and they're awesome. Thank you so much, everybody that sent that sent books. But um, we had hundreds of books.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Yeah, I was just asking about that. I was like, like, I remember like a ton of care packages being like just books.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Yeah, I remember huge boxes of books, and there'd be like a note from like, this is from some church, and I just thought it was some random church. I didn't realize it was your mom out there. We were the most literate in the Marine Corps. That's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yeah, it was awesome. It was, and I I read quite a few books, but you know, we're I obviously uh we don't have a lot of time to read books. Right. In fact, I remember Staff Sergeant Cook coming and Sergeant Garcia, like, okay, dude, what's fucking going on with all these books? Some of them were like addressed to you. And I was like, he's like, you gotta build a book rack. And I was like, I don't know how to build a book rack. He's like, you figured out. I was like, okay, I'll build a book rack. So I had to like build a book rack in that side room on the one. This full of books no one ever read. Hopefully, you know, fifth marines that took over got a lot of use out of them.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

I ended up reading a lot.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, me too. I did. Yeah, there's quite a few good ones in there. It was nice of them. That was awesome.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

We wanted beef jerky and chew and the adult-sized wipes to wipe ourselves down.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. After sandstorms. That was wild, the sandstorm day. When it was raining mud, that was that was unreal. I've never seen that in my life.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

I I have very for whatever reason, that's one of the also one of the things that I randomly think about just it rain straight up raining mud. That was just that was wild. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

It's also funny to me because I grew up in a desert, so that's normal to me. And like it's it's weird what you consider normal.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm used to like lake effect rain and snow, and you know, then it's gone. And if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes. Yeah.

unknown 13:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Um, yeah, and then you know, uh throughout the last I I we really grew so tight, we were already so tight with everybody, right? But you're you're with each other all day, every day in this small hoot. And um man, you you grew some really, really tight bonds. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Do you keep in touch with many, many people from from that time?

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah, quite a few. Yeah, um Accles. So I'm I live in Michigan now. And uh Accles lives in Michigan. He'll come up to Mackin Island. I work on Mackinac Island and uh he'll come up and see me and hang out a little bit. Um, I see Hodges quite a bit. Uh Doc and Tres, I've seen quite a few times. Um, yeah, Rudy's all always around. He's moving around quite a bit. Yeah, um, but I've gone to California and seen him a few times. And uh yeah, yeah, I've seen quite a few guys. Um saw a few other people in Texas. I lived in for a winter, I lived in Texas. That was one of my last winters, um last drinking winters living in Texas. Actually, I was living at Hodges' house, and I remember I I was sober for a little bit. And you know, when I when we when we got done when we left, might be jumping ahead, but um man, I I remember getting out and couldn't sleep at all, having night tears, and they put me on like Depa coat, which is an anti-symptotic, and uh, you know, and then um 200 milligrams of Zoloft. So I was like wired, which I don't need at all. I literally wake up like this, just like amped. And um, and then uh I couldn't sleep, so then it was like ambient for sleep, and then of course I'd hoard those and take like three at a time and see like babies crawling on the ceiling. And um, and I remember my last, my last uh, yeah, and I was drinking and I was gonna keep living it. Reagan's in Houston, and um I drank his booze. I found some vodka, he had taken everything out of the house, and I found some underneath the counter. I was like, ha ha, jackpot. And um, I remember him like throwing me up against the wall by the neck. He's like, do it again, I'll strangle you. Like, okay. I think that was like the last time I drink.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

So it's a good way to go out, I suppose. I mean, at least it was somebody showing you that they gave a fuck.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Yeah, a hundred percent. Absolutely. Yeah, and I so I still keep in contact with uh quite a few people, just here and there send some texts and um uh Gar Garcia, sorry, Garcia Flex. Um Man, it was so good to see everybody at the at the reunion too. That was unreal.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

It was good, man. It was good seeing you there. It was uh it was weirdly emotional, at least for me. I don't know how it was for you.

Skirmishes, IEDs, And Oliver North

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Oh, absolutely. I yeah, like I said, emotions are running high. I this a lot of those guys, you know, were still repairing, still, you know, getting better. They were in the hospital or they were had gotten evapped, and I hadn't seen him since then.

SPEAKER_04 16:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

So and then I got out pretty quick after too, and uh I was you know just an idiot and uh moved um but to see everybody was awesome. So I hadn't seen those guys in forever.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

So it was it was so good. Good for the soul.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Yeah. When uh so you only did the four years? Yep. And when did you get out?

SPEAKER_01 16:45

I got out in uh September and left immediately and moved to Minnesota. And um, I at that point I was a disaster, and I was doing drywall and I I was uh drinking just heavily every day and taking the meds on top of it. So I left there and went back to Illinois and uh trying to go back to school and worked at a chemical plant for a little bit, and I was in and out of AA and trying to get off my meds and um met my wife in college, and uh she she saved me pretty much. I always say the two J's saved me, Jessica and Jesus. Yeah, oh my gosh, she's she was amazing. So she when we first met in school, she's like, Oh, this guy's awesome, man. He like he parties, he's so much fun. He's like, he's a great guy. And then I would have a flask in school. I like kept a flask on me. She's like, he's so much fun. Like, oh wait, he has a problem. Yeah, you know, about two weeks in. And um, and then I remember I went to the hospital and she sat with me for like two, we'd only been dating for a little bit. She sat with me in the hospital for like two weeks, and um I detoxed off meds, off everything, and then they had me on low doses of stuff. Eventually I just quit taking everything, um, quit drinking. I've been in and out of AA and I relapsed a few times. Um, three or four rehabs. That was good times. Actually, one in Michigan, that's a fun story. Um, you after two weeks, you could go out in town. And uh, and this is in the winter. I I I work for seven months and I take five off. So in it was in the winter. And at after two weeks, you go out in town. Well, I went out in town and there's like this cool snowboard shop. I was like, oh, it's sick. You know, and I snowboard and skateboard and serve. And uh walked back by and I was like, oh, there's a liquor store next to it. That's odd. And I go back around and I go back in. Is it open? Let's see if it's open. Oh, it is open. And I remember I bought like four half pints and I had cowboy boots on, and I work with horses, so I thought it was cool. And I put the four half pints on each side of my cowboy boots, and I walked back into uh to rehab and they checked me. They're like, okay, he's clear. Come back in and I hide them in the little, I have like a little vent. I took the screws off and I hit them in there, and then uh New Year's I got hammered. And I remember I think I'm pretty sure I was wrestling with somebody and they're like, he smells like peppermint schnapps. They're like, you can stay, uh, but you know, you gotta clean like no, I'm out of here. And I've I left rehab then. Pulling, I was in Marquette, Michigan, and pulling my sea bag through like three feet of snow. Like, yeah. Uh, but I got better.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

So um that's the that's the that's the important part. I mean, it's not the relapse, it's just that you get back, you get back on it. And that's the that's the hard part, and that's the important part. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

And I feel like you told me you've been sober 14 years, some crazy amount of shit, right?

Adrenaline, Lifting, And Hooch Life

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, February uh 20th will be 14 years. So congrats, man. That's amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's it was a it's been it's been incredible. Also, if anybody um, you know, if anybody's still struggling, please reach out. Man, I've I love talking to people. I've had quite a few people reach out um from the battalion and like hey man, I I I saw your sober on Facebook or Ever. Um any tips, any help? And I'm man, I I have all the tips. I I can help you. Um yeah, it was it was a long hard row. Uh long hard road. So yeah. Um man, I just all the guys that that we were with, just it was an incredible group of of magnificent bastards. And um, I just uh I want to help everybody that I can because I I genuinely love all you guys. Um it was awesome. It was the time of my life.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

So I definitely don't want to drill down on the uh recovery part of it too much, but I do want to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind about that part of things.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

When you were first getting out and you sought medical help, what made you see a doctor in the first place to get on the meds just from not being able to sleep?

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Um from yeah, I was having night tears um a bunch, and I I would wake up and just like screaming. And I don't know why or what, or yeah. Um, and just different things that we saw when we were we were in, and um and yeah, it was just it was rough, and I had a few panic attacks, and I didn't think those were real. I'd always said people panic have a panic attack. I'm like, dude, suck it up, you're fine, that's not real. I was like, oh no, that's a real thing. Um and uh yeah, I and then obviously to mass that into sleep, I was drinking and I'm like, man, I I need to get on some medication. And the Marine Corps originally put me on the medication. Um so and at you know, as you know, at that time there there was no counseling. There's you know, we watched that that uh video on how to assimilate back into society and like do all the things. All right, you're gonna go. Have a good day.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Yeah, well, that was gonna be my next question was what was the follow up?

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah. But um, so it and yeah, the the doc literally uh I remember uh going into BAS and uh he just gave me a bunch of meds and said, you know, go about your way, this will this will fix you. And didn't say to come back in or check back up or anything, and it was just like uh and that was the fix at the time, I think.

unknown 22:27

You know.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

there was no there was no counseling there was no no one to talk to about it right I mean we were the first ones that had been in that heavy of combat in a very long yeah so just uh just a point of like clarification uh like timeline so when did when did two four go back to the Oki tour because you would have if you got out in September or wait did you get out in September of oh five or September of September of oh five yeah because then did they were you like left behind? I was left behind yep yep oh okay yeah so um yeah and I just kind of hang hung out in California waiting to uh get out and uh were you just part of the rear element or were you with Regimental? I was part of the I was with Regimental at the time. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Yep. So that probably didn't help anything either. I mean if everybody was gone then I mean every everybody was gone I was literally on my own.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

We'd have to be there for morning formation and then in the afternoon formation and then you just do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Yeah that's not good.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Not at all.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Yeah and I I and in fact I tried to I tried to go uh see a counselor I I talked to BS I tried to see a counselor and there was no one to talk to I they I didn't yeah it wasn't until I got out that I actually saw a doctor and um and sought counseling and and that helped immensely so um yeah I and I you know it's implemented a lot more now um but yeah it was rough in fact I think next year um next winter we're gonna be in California working with uh Veteran Surf Alliance I'm gonna try to volunteer with them and and do some stuff there's a few different surf I surf all winter pretty much um and uh yeah and there's a few different ones in California so that's awesome yeah that's good man yeah that that I'm I really hope I don't know that much about how they have things set up now but I know when we got out the very minimal amount of support that there was was not enough and then for people like I know the three of us are in this category where due to the timing of how we got out we were just left to our own devices and very in a lot of ways isolated and having to do it by ourselves. I mean Nylon and I stayed real close and stuff like that and we stayed in contact but it's it's you know when you're you know 20 247 by yourself and then you know you get your your little hits help I mean it helps keep your feet underneath you but uh that first uh 18 months man I was honest absolutely let's just say I have stories exactly one uh uh people discount it but it's the the culture of drinking in the Marine Corps is is literally everywhere I mean like what what do you give people at that time yeah yeah what do you give people for going away you give them a bottle of whiskey or you give them a a beer mug or you you know like there's always there's and then what do you do to celebrate a promotion?

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Everybody gets drunk and gets the shit kicked out of them. Absolutely what do you do to celebrate your birthday? Same exact thing what do you do to celebrate waking up on a Monday same thing right birthdays right yeah exactly it's it's and there's it's mostly not like it's not like oh we're gonna have a drink and then we'll we'll be done like we're all gonna have a glass of wine and read a book right like right yeah no no no no it's it's mostly you're drinking all the way through right all the way to excess and it it does not lead to good coping mechanisms in any way.

Care Packages, Books, And Sandstorms

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Absolutely not yeah yeah it's like let's just go have a bottle what here's one bottle well I mean you know and not to use Okinawa's example but because that's the worst example of all of it but what were they serving you liquor in it was bowls like the bowl right yeah it was a it was a punch bowl like it's not it's not a cup like here's a bowl of liquor for you yeah it was the mo right the motor yeah four four friends and and and four straws and see you know you have to try and finish it as fast as you can yeah exactly yeah unreal well we'll drag it back to the deployment for a minute is there anything else you can remember that you want to want to talk about I can always pick your brain but I'm just curious if there's anything else that stands out funny not funny serious firefight whatever um something about what some of the guys uh what's that something about what some of the guys um oh yeah well uh I used to love um also running around naked in the hooch while everybody was watching movies in the dark that's uh bring that back up and no I'm just kidding and uh no one else liked it it was weird I couldn't figure it out uh no I just you know you try to m boost morale I you know I I can remember uh vividly um getting hit with an RPG um our truck got hit with an well it hit the tire but it was uh like a training practice round and it had it it was shot right at us like RPG we're still in the back of the Humvee we were moving to contact and uh fell down boom hit the street boom hit our tire and uh I don't think I don't know if it even popped but we looked and it was like a training practice round and we're like and we just you start dying laughing like what an idiot um and I just I can remember so vividly like and I that's kind of my coping mechanism too is um laughing at everything but I can remember vividly just like the camaraderie and just laughing you know like the way to get through it you know how do we get through this uh how do we push through this 17 hour firefight you know like um and we just like almost almost get blown up almost get shot or get shot and just laugh about it and uh you know everybody copes differently um and I I just remembered you know pretty vividly that those were that was my coping mechanism yeah everybody had some super dark humor like I I remember numerous times of people singing in the middle of firefights dancing in the middle of firefights throwing shit at somebody right like somebody shooting and they're like throwing jolly ranchers at them or something like just just crazy shit like no sane person would ever do that but it was the way to get through it man the humor made it worth it absolutely yeah I I can remember uh I I only got to throw a frag once um we got somebody threw a grenade like down the street or down this alley um and we were out in the middle of a pretty busy street in in town and frag went off we all got down frag went off nobody was hit and uh I said can I throw a frag back and obviously everyone's ears are ringing nobody can hear anything I look around and I'm looking at starting to go see he didn't say anything I just pull a frag and throw it over the wall where it just got the frag just came from and uh by who am I here I didn't hear anything else so I assume I won but I don't know nice but yeah I can remember you know and we're all laughing um and I and it wasn't to make light of of combat in the situation you know it was just that's how we got through a lot of times yeah it's funny it's uh it's listed as one of the mature coping mechanisms is to make humor out of a serious situation I I don't know if that's true but uh but it's but it's listed that way yeah I am the quintessence of maturity do you remember much about how things sort of changed from the beginning from the April firefights and then moving through the summer and going towards the the end like July August um yeah absolutely I can remember um you know we got I remember getting up armored and we were stoked we went and got those vehicles um from Fallujah if I remember correctly um and we drove in there and and the Israeli army didn't want them I believe is what it was we had some of those too that was that was interesting too you could still see like the outline of some of those stars man we're like grinding off stars of David absolutely not wild and so uh yeah we got a few of those vehicles and I was stoked I didn't care I was like they don't want these things are sick and I remember I I first got uh we were on a fastback and then I had the Mark 19 on that and uh I still didn't have armor up top though there was still I didn't have a plate up front I didn't have a plate in the back or anything or sides and I was still just right up front exposed to the world and then I remember I got that front plate and I was so stoked. And we took small arms fire that day like I that day or the the day after I got that plate and uh it sounds cooler if you say it was that day.

Bonds That Last And Staying Connected

SPEAKER_02 31:34

And then yeah yeah but I remember taking small arms fire and we came back and I we were looking at the I was looking at everything taking everything off taking the mark off taking all the stuff out and uh I had one bullet hole that would have gone like right in my into my chest like right on my front plate and I was like oh dude yes thank you Lord thank you Jesus and um actually and that was the same time um you know a few people were getting sniped and uh there were some snipers in town with what I you know was our sniper rifle right I mean I I think one of them was that and uh that was the rumor we didn't know for sure right they had they had taken a DM rifle and a sniper rifle off of the team that got killed. And so yeah I mean it's definitely possible there was I mean there was that the you ever watch the American sniper movie Juba oh yeah all of the prevailing wisdom afterwards was that there wasn't really a juba that it was a bunch of different dudes with sniper rifles and that they just made up this myth that there was some super ninja Batman sniper who was sniping everybody. But uh we had recovered SVDs and uh dragonoff sniper rifles and other stuff from from other from dead bodies so it's not like there weren't other snipers. Yeah absolutely yeah and that was the whole that I forgot about that incident um getting fragged on the roof there and they took uh radio as the sniper rifle and pretty much all that gear up top yeah yeah uh that was June 21st so it was like kind of like right in the middle of the deployment and I I mean again I you guys probably did more with this than I did but uh I know some of the platoons helped take the bodies down and and some helped take them off to Alasada Air Base.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

It was a weird change in mission because we that was right in the middle of when we were ramping up stopping the racetrack patrols up and down Michigan and we started putting OPs everywhere and just watching large sectors of the city instead yeah absolutely yeah and and we were the QRF to that so they hadn't called in hadn't called in um no response and so we uh yeah we responded to that and I was on the marks I was like stuck on the truck and I remember they came up there and there was already I won't name the the news station but there was already a news station there um and you know the report had been that they called them before anyone and uh and and no one had warned us and uh they were already there filming so yep yeah I do they filmed everything before we had ever got there which is disgusting yeah yeah yeah not a surprise I don't think uh given the climate at the time but right um and uh yeah you know I on the I I really like um guard pump too I can remember on um being on guard and um this is side note weird but um I was up on the I was up on guard during the day and on the bridge and I'm looking under one of the bridges I think is Euphrates and I'm looking underneath there and um I see a guy uh this this dude giving another guy uh fallacious under the bridge um and so you know of course I needed to call that in so I have my binos and uh I'm looking down the thing and uh you know there's a bunch of infantry marines right now that are googling the word fallacious because they they don't know what that means. And uh yeah I got the binos and I'm looking I'm like is this is this real is it am I and so you know I'm like I gotta call this in. So I called in to you know command COC and the I don't remember what the call signs were and um and I think Muster you were in there quite a bit weren't you?

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Yeah that was yeah I was uh often on the radio and I and I call in I'm like uh yep whatever the call signs were I have a gentleman given another gentleman Felicio under the bridge and of course the response was always I hear everybody dying laughing and then they say uh keep an eye on it maintain radio silence and uh and then you know I I didn't call anything back but yeah he finished he he went to the fountain and he got some water I think he went to the Euphrates got some water and uh splashed his mouth out and it took off and um like this is that's the craziest thing I've ever seen and uh I went back to the hoochie I remember telling I was like telling everybody I was like dude you'll never believe this and I was like and you know it happened he drank some water splashed his mouth out and he took off and Ackles just out of nowhere goes oh my god he drank the water that is the most horrifying part of the story it really is 100 100 it's disgusting you know yeah the amount of shit in that water i i actually agree with Ackles in this case but you know it all runs down to the you know in their their sewer system their outhouses run out to the alley run down to the Euphrates eventually I mean it's oh my gosh oh remember those 110 degree days like going down alleys you splash through it it's all over the Humvee you're like it'd smell that all day yep I can't remember who I can't remember who it was uh but somebody we were I think we were at the police station or something like that.

Getting Out, Meds, And The Spiral

SPEAKER_03 37:09

And uh anyways they they were walking back to the truck and their leg went through one of those it was like had one of those cesspools had crusted over and so it looked like normal dirt and they went all the way up to their hip and it just stained their leg. It was just so disgusting never forgot that one I'm sure no no oh god so gross so coming into the the latter part you know get into July and stuff like that what do you remember of getting towards the end when we started having left seat right seats and stuff like that oh yeah yeah and um having left seat right seats and I like I said I was on you know I was always on the mark until the end so I missed a lot of kicking indoors and I was always just kind of sitting there on my mark waiting for something to happen.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Um and I remember with uh pretty uh before this I remember uh shooting up that hotel there was a bunch of guys in that hotel uh we had Bradley's on station and um do you remember the date on that?

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Do you have a date on I think it was August 18th but I'm not 100% sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

So that's what I'm thinking because I know it was like it was hot. Yep and uh it was really hot. We had and we had Bradley on station and um I it was on the mark and I remember putting like all cans of ammo in my Humvee into that everyone's going ceasefire ceasefire I'm still going um and uh yeah that was a wild day that was a pretty big one they everybody um dug into that hotel uh do you remember that at all?

SPEAKER_02 38:45

So potentially uh actually now I'm kind of I'm questioning so there's two times that that could have been we had uh OP Library which was uh when the battalion CEO was on the way to meet up with golf company who was already engaged out by OP uh library and they got into contact but uh map three and I think you guys went out because you and map three were out at the same time a lot because you're on similar similar schedules and you pushed forward and that was when uh there's a video of that Oliver North took of a of a Bradley literally just raking back and forth across two different floors of of a building and that could have been it or again on August 18th there was OP hotel that was uh they had attacked it with explosives and we came out as QRF and it was three different map platoons that were out at that time on different spots and we were trying to figure out how to get the I think it was Fox Company who was up on top of that OP we were trying to figure out how to get them down because they had they had put so many explosives it had blown out the stairs and the floor and we were like they're fucking stuck up there. Nobody was dead yeah they're all injured but nobody was dead and we're like trying to figure out how to get them down from the top and then we took contact from three buildings directly straight across it was like a setup thing when the QRF showed up they started shooting and there was Bradley there too at that time.

Rehab Relapse And The Turn Toward Sobriety

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Yeah yeah yeah we they were on station quite a bit um it was giving it mostly when things got real bad they were not they were not there all the time no no because we were like I said we were qrf and movement to contact so we were flying yeah and we're just you know always trying to get to somewhere as as quick as possible yeah but it was nice to see them every once in a while for sure so yeah from there I remember you know towards the um towards the end uh and I you know Sergeant Garcia talked about this too uh man I remember just we were ready you know like August September's hitting and and we're like okay we're we're we're ready to go and it was more like um preservation at that point like yep two five anytime you're ready we're ready to get out of here this has been like seven months of of hell and uh yeah we're ready to go and um but I can remember we still had some you know I I don't remember a lot of the missions um at the end there I remember a lot of night missions night QRF stuff and night casket will um really and hitting a bunch of things at night um and I remember weapons being dug in uh we always had reports of weapons being dug in places right weapons caches and and um especially in the cemeteries there's a few different cemetery ones where and we'd just set up an LPOP out there and be out there in the dark and uh seeing if they were digging in weapons actually that was my the only camel spider I saw um yeah we were uh we were waiting to see if they were dug in and I hear I have my uh you know we still had our PBS seven bravos right and um um which are terrible and then I do I keep trying to focus and I'm like focusing in on stuff I'm trying to get my get my sight and I I hear on my flak and doll is underneath me I hear again and I I'm like looking down I'm trying to focus so I look down at my flak and I'm focusing in I'm like ah whoa I hit the freaking thing down it's a camel spider on my flak jacket and I I hit him down into the to the Humvee and doll like shut the fuck up dude shut the fuck up and I somebody else in another truck's like dude shut up I was like yeah sorry so I can't tell him what it was I'm like sitting there quiet and then all of a sudden I hear you know like maybe two minutes later I hear oh we can't do camel spider and dolls they'll go shut the fuck up shut the fuck up yeah I probably blew that up we never found any weapons it was weird I don't know and it's funny those things look terrifying but they're completely harmless yeah they're just so giant and they move so weird the way they move they're so such a strange spider. Yeah unreal not a fan but yeah um and leaving you know we were all we were all pretty psyched I mean uh we were tired we were pretty torn up and uh but we were all we were all pretty excited to to get back and I can remember the elation and the and the excitement to just to leave that pretty specifically everybody's pretty amped so we got home and we had uh a block of leave do you remember much about getting home yeah absolutely went and saw the uh saw the family I remember getting back um and everybody you know everybody went to go see family and take off and uh we all said our goodbyes and I remember I was uh on the parade deck I probably should have known I had a problem at this point but I remember I was on the parade deck and they were they had a keg for us when we got back. Two kegs a bunch of people there were like woo yeah you're welcome back and I remember sitting on the parade deck by myself uh with my ex and we I just sat there just like are you ready to go and I'm like I'm just gonna finish this gag off and there was no one else there it was just me by this and then uh yeah I was there for another 45 minutes or so and then I was just like sit I sat there quiet and just sit like I couldn't talk I couldn't do anything. I just like you know like you've mentioned before on your like it's you it's so hard to talk to people about it. Um and and not that it was necessarily hard to talk about it's just how do you bring it up? What do you say? And the awkwardness of other people too when you bring it up. They have nothing to relate. Right. You know, so they just then they just get quiet and they're it was just even talking to family about it. You know, I went home and saw the fam and yeah, it was pretty quiet. And which is not like me. I'm um and it was rough coming back. Yeah. I mean I was so stoked to be back stateside and but yeah and I mean you guys have talked about that a lot just how hard it is you know you don't have anybody to talk to about it.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

So one of those weird things is is you can't talk to anybody else and you you there's no culture of talking to your other Marines about anything really right right what were you going to say Blake?

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Sorry I cut you off oh just no well just basically the same thing that it's just uh it I I realized and it took me a long time talking about it to realize that it's hard to talk about because you're still trying to figure out how to phrase it to yourself even like you it's not it's not an easy narrative to to bring up even if you had a like you knew what you wanted to say and what you wanted to convey it's still a heavy topic you know but back then you know a bunch of young idiots that you know I'll speak for myself you know barely graduated from high school you know it's not like I was some sort of like road scholar that was really good at you know writing prose and so uh I didn't and then and then a lot of times when you're talking with people too especially early on they would like jump on the wrong part of the story and you're like no stop like I you know what never mind you know like that's not like that's you you focused on the wrong part and didn't get I didn't get to tell you the funny part. Well then as you pointed out the the gallows humor also doesn't land as well. So it's like here's this really funny story. And then you know you get done with the story and you're laughing uproariously and you look at everybody else and they have like the the you know the most horror struck look on their face and it's like oh my God it's like no no it's funny it's funny no everybody died it was great you don't you guys are not getting it oh my god he he drank the water that was the punchline that was the no maybe maybe I told it wrong let me try I'll start on nope nope I don't need to hear it again I'm fine uh yeah no well I'm glad you've got you've uh there's there's there's quite a few of us and I'm glad that you're in that buck in that category too that has found a way to figure it out at least for yourself I know I mean I'm still on the journey myself of really you know what did what it all really means but you know I do have my head screwed on a lot straighter than I did you know every five years I think I get a little bit better with it. So glad to see that you're in that category now my friend.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Yeah that's so good to hear thank you so much I don't think it stops.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

I mean maybe I'm wrong but I don't think it stops. I think it's something where you kind of it comes up every once in a while and you gotta I don't know you gotta hit it with a bat or something. You gotta do something with it when it when it pops up right I don't I don't know and I think that's the same with with drinking right or with combat memories or how do you talk to somebody about Savage right that's I mean how how would you tell right they'd be like oh you're uh you're talking shit about this guy right like oh he was he's kind of a goofball and he's you know he's he's not the smartest guy it's like well how how do you tell him this story about your friend right it's always something you it put everything pops up and you just got to deal with it consistently and it's uh it sounds like you've gotten a much better way of dealing with it than most which is good that's really good.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Yeah thank you so much yeah I I take zero medications now I just eat right exercise is so key I you've talked about that before but it's so important for your mental stability for for everything. And um I drinking cut drinking out no medications whatsoever. And medications work great for somebody especially in the right doses and and see somebody about it and you know actually go back and do it right.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

And uh I was gonna say that's the important part is medication with the support that's 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

And um and then uh you know I like I said in the winter I I surf all winter and that's been like my saving craze I'm always in the water I'm always either working out or in the water or riding dirt bikes.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

So that's awesome dude well is there uh anything we left out anything you want to go through or this good place to put a pin in it.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Yeah absolutely thank you guys so much for this this is it it's been so much fun and um thank you guys for doing this podcast because that it it's so awesome to to relive this um it really is and be able to talk to people about it.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

We're really glad to have you we've been what's funny is when we started this we're like we really got to talk to Hersher at some point and like yeah I don't know if we're gonna get any tactical knowledge out of him it'll be pretty not looking to speak to General Hersher if you like what you heard make sure you subscribe for future episodes on your favorite podcast service