Constant Combat

Courage From The Messy Middle Ground - Reagan Hodges (part 2 of 3)

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Part 2 for Reagan Hodges with some gunfight stories and some memories of how the body keeps score. We also dig into what real combat leadership looks like, how grief shows up at strange times, and a little post traumatic growth.
 
• an RPK gunner at close range
• hypervigilance 
• trust-based leadership
• pride in the platoon and the rage behind disrespecting the fallen 
• faith and a grandmother’s war-time mindset 
• losing friends
• the sniper rooftop deaths and why rumors fill information gaps 
• mixed feelings about war stories becoming public through a book 
• coming home, wanting to redeploy
• veteran suicide prevention work and speaking bluntly with love 
• post-traumatic growth and challenging guilt for missing the fight 


If you like what you've heard, this is a multi part episode. Make sure you listen to the rest of the story. 


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Part Two Setup And Context

SPEAKER_01

This is part two of our interview with Regan Hodges of Rainmaker Platoon. Yeah, the story was that there was, you know, some contact out in a out in a field, and you guys had to do basically an L-shaped movement to contact, and you guys were running through, and there's a story in the book about you taking out a guy and uh Hersher was there as well.

Adrenaline Aftermath And Nightmares

SPEAKER_00

Are you talking about um the guy that would in the machine gun nest that was correct? Yeah. That's go ahead. No, no, yeah. I mean, it was your story. I was just kind of kind of priming. Kind of like the way I felt when I realized what I was looking at, the remains of gang on that windshield. That situation. That's one of those moments like I don't even I can't tell you how I even feel about like. So basically we shot, we we were we were fighting, running and gunning during the day. We end up we're chasing some some guys down. We made it to a house, we end up going to it had a third story. And we get up there, we're elevated now, we're looking out, we're trying to find out, you know, um, where these people are, and there's a I don't know how maybe 200 yards, there's a berm, 150 yards, something like that. There's a berm, probably about three foot high. Because you know how they would dig the old irrigation ditches. Yes. That's and so they would have like the dirt from that was was was all laid out. So they were using that as a um, like if you're on the ground, they could low crawl, but but you know, going where they want to go, and you wouldn't be able to see them. They didn't know have a clue we were on the um third floor. So we lighten light and dude up. There were two of them we lit up. Um so after, you know, if we call in, I know that the rest of the company's gonna start heading toward towards us. And oh, I think we might have waited for them before we started sweeping the um the field. So we get there, Hersher was was behind me, and right behind him was was Captain Weiler, I believe. But he was probably, he was a little distance, but not too far. I mean, everybody was pretty tight. And um, as we're walking up, I see this, I'm on point, like I'm way out in the front. Um, and this guy's, I see this guy, but we had shot him, we had located him on the ground now. Um, there were two of them we were looking for. So I end up making contact with the with one guy, and he's his body's still making these weird movements, and I'm like, I know what's happening here. He's gonna lay there, and when I get up on him, he's gonna throw a grenade at me. Because we had heard stories about them doing that. Right. So I have my I'm phyxiated on him. I leave I actually turned back and told, I told um Captain Wilder, I said, I'm gonna put another one in. And he goes, No, he told me not to. I said, All right, you're not gonna, you know, you listen to the man, right? So I'm I'm walking up. Instead of having my peripheral vision out looking everywhere, I'm just deadlocked on this guy. And I'm walking up and I'm I'm ready to go, you know. Um on that walk out of the blue, I just hear a barrage of gunfire that is so it started off. The dude was 10 feet away from me, and by the time it ended up, by the time I got done shooting, I was touching him. You know. Um I can remember seeing the whites of this dude's eyes, and I remember he had an RPK, it was on a bipod. And when it was over with, we counted all the rounds. It was 29 spent casings. Yeah, the brass was right there, and he had missed me every single time. And he's the one who started shooting first, and I just remember you don't have a situation like that. If you think at all, you're a dead man. If I would have hit the ground, pretty much everybody hit the ground, which is the smart thing to do. I I just took off at him. And was you shooting? I know the first, I probably know telling how many times I missed him, but I know I let him up about six times, and right at the end, Leilong comes from my right hand man, Leilong comes up from nowhere. Boom, boom, boom, and just starts. He let he let into him as well. Um it was the craziest situation. I'm I'm I promise you, by the time I got done shooting, I was I was touching him. And um I just remember the smoke coming from his barrel. And at one point I couldn't even see him because of the smoke coming off his his barrel. Um and I remember the way that I felt immediately after that happened. Like my adrenaline was so out of control. I just remember feeling like beat, red flush in my face. I remember patting myself down, thinking, how, and I'm like, I don't know how to feel at this time. And then Hersher comes up and goes, Holy shit, he missed you every time. And he was laughing and joking about it. But I was still like, oh, and like, what in the hell just happened? You know? And um that was when, like I said, Captain Waller was behind me. And um, that's when he almost got shot. That's when um he hit the ground, and uh some of the rounds being shot at me ended up because he was directly behind me, I'm pretty sure. They ended up hitting and exploding and shrapnel hitting him in the face from it. And um, and then um the which which ended up being one of the the biggest one of it was a proud moment for me years after the fact, because um in the book, Captain Wiler, this is the guy that was I was about to, you know, we were not liking each other so much before that deployment because of all the trouble I was getting into. And um, and he ended up mentioning in the book, he's like, you know, if it wasn't he he credited me for saving his life. And um, like to me, and he's a general now. Yeah. And um that's like a big I'm proud of that, you know. I'm proud of that situation for sure. Yeah, but uh people were like, how did you do it? He's like, you know, I don't know how much skill was involved in that. I think it was a shitload of good luck. I think the worst shot in the history of war was in front of me, and he didn't know how to react. And all I could do was shit my pants and run at him and start shooting. And um, and I ended up killing him. And I thank God for that, you know. Um it just reminds me before I went on that deployment, uh, my mom's mom, my grandma, she's like super, super religious, uber religious. And um, she was always me and her, we always made like she would talk smack to me, I would talk smack back to her. And she was a tough grandma. Like I remember her getting on the phone with me and and telling me, oh, actually, I was actually, it was when I came home, I seen her before that deployment. She had she was reading off these Bible scriptures to me, and she's like, you know what? You do not go over there and be weak. And she was pointing out to me in the Bible where God, you know, and was all about war, not all about war, but parts in the Bible that describe war and how you have to basically handle you. She goes, you go there, and you like she was giving me a freaking chesty puller speech, like nobody's business. And she's like, you know, um, if God, he decides when you're gonna die, when you're not, you don't be afraid of anything. And I was thinking, my gosh, he might have been right, because there's no excuse to why I should have lived through that. I mean, 29 times from the longest he distance was 10 was like 10 feet away. Yeah. Um, how do you the only thing I can think of is that he's seen he's seen me creeping up the whole time. But what he also probably seen was people behind me. And he's probably thinking, oh shit, I've like he knows his one way or the other, even if he kills me, his days are over. He knows that. I can only assume that he was so nervous about that, he couldn't get a beat on me because I didn't go left and right. I just went straight at him because that was the shortest distance. I was like, I'm either gonna shoot him or I'm gonna tackle this son of a bitch, but something's gonna happen, you know. And um I guess going back to that story my my my grandma had to, I was like, wow. I mean, it was just a crazy. Like I had even to this day, like if I have a bad dream about that, it's not about, you know, people that I've killed or anything. I always thought, you know, um, what it would be like to if you are you gonna feel bad about killing somebody in war? You get and the feeling that I always took with me is um that you're not. Like I wouldn't feel bad about that. And uh I was 100% right. I didn't give a shit about killing them people. Um, it was the goal. It was the it that's what we had trained for. Um, that's what it was it was meant to be, I guess. I don't know. But um that is a I just remember afterwards, and I had a video camera, the Captain Harry, and I started filming immediately after that. And I just remember my adrenaline shaking like it was crazy. I I can't, I'll never experience that feeling again, especially that adrenaline rush, because it was a lot of like anxiety. Like if I have a dream about something now, it's about that. And I wake up with anxiety from that. And that's not even like that. It was a good situation. I come out best case scenario. And that has like given me more anxiety about anything else ever in my life. I mean, but I mean, I'm good, but it's like wow, what a lucky bastard I am, you know.

SPEAKER_03

I know that strikes true for me too, man. Like my uh if there's negative feelings from the deployment, it's not further any of the shooting that I did. Yeah, but it's like it's it's the it's the intensity of the time, and it gives it and my anxiety is just through the like I'm very anxious and I can't figure out how to get myself back down because then I'm like on that super hyper vigilance phase. But it's but it's but it's never it's never a it's it's it yours is a little bit more specific than even mine of of like it's just sometimes just running the gauntlet of uh of Route Michigan. I've I guess I have some just the feeling like I'll have a dream about just just just not not even having an ID pop off, but then I'll wake up out of that and I might as well just get out of bed because I ain't going back to sleep.

SPEAKER_00

That so I'm it's funny you say that. I can tell you so many times where I've had that exact dream, and I'll wake up at you know, four or five in the morning, and and you wake up because you're living that experience again. And in the moment of your dream, you don't realize you're gonna live, you know. You just and so I'll wake up and my body's intense. Like I'm squeezing every muscle, and I get up, and my heart's about 103, you know, beats per minute. And it's like I ain't going back to sleep. I'll just go to the gym. I'll get up, drive, go to the gym, come back. And um, it's pretty wild, you know. It's um, I never I just never felt bad about doing the job, you know. I I never was worried. I would I'm not gonna lie and say that. Um I did think, I think everybody over there, once, once the shit started really hitting the fan, they think about dying one time or another, like, oh my God, like I could die. You think about that. I pushed that out of my head. I didn't care about dying as much as I was afraid of like the selfish part of me was like, you know, if you die, you're like a part of me was like, yeah, I'm meant to die on a battlefield, you know. That's just part of my personality, part of the way I think. Um but but the selfish part of me was like, I don't want to go home with no legs. I don't want to go home with one with no eyes. I don't want to lose an arm. Like I was more selfishly worried about just getting fucked up and living than I was dying. You know, it's a weird way to think, but but that's the truth.

SPEAKER_03

No, I have very, very vivid recollections of that exactly what you're talking about, Reagan. Like, like that, that deal making process. You know, at first it was like, it was like, ah, I'm not gonna be okay if I lose my hand. Then that's that's a bridge too far. And then eventually it's like, well, I'll I'll come back as long as I'm a quadruplegic, you know. And then eventually you just get to a point where it's like, ah, fuck it all. As long as I don't embarrass myself, you know, like it's kind of uh again, kind of that selfish, like, I just don't want to go out like a bitch.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And and I want to make sure that I'm I'm doing it for the, you know, like I want to make sure that I've this was mission accomplishment and my boys are coming home. Because I think we were we were all in positions of of where we where we were in charge of people, and that was you know, making sure they came home was the most important thing that that was for me. Yep. And uh, you know, the and fuck fuck all for me. I don't give a shit, you know.

SPEAKER_00

I just my mentality was like, I mean, you obviously should seek cover when you can. It's just a smart thing to do to stay alive to kill more bad guys. Um, but in those tight situations, I just my best defense I felt for me and my team was just a badass offense. Like, like I'm a lot quicker to shoot than I than I am running, you know. So pray run, you know, I'm a predator out here. But I just we advanced forward, you know, and um well there's no one to run in that situation, anyways.

SPEAKER_03

That's our doctrine, though. You know, like fire fire superiority, you know, like like let's you know, like you don't need a perfect plan, just start shooting.

SPEAKER_01

And there's no place you could there's no place you could hide Captain Wyler. He was too no, no, he's an animal, dude. There's no place you have to have a whole building to hide it. Exactly. Oh, yeah, exactly. Huge men.

Combat Leadership And Trust

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. That's I I like to speaking of Dobbs, I like to I gotta give him his props too, man. He is he was a I don't want to give him too much props. He'll get a big hit. No, he won't. He's a great guy. But uh I think he was perfect as far as the platoon commander goes, at least for me. Um, he let me do my thing, so to speak, as long as it made sense. Um, probably get away with a little more than others. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that way. Other people have said that to me as well. But um I he was just hey, we put you guys, certain guys, in these positions. Did we trust you to handle your business? Go handle it. Yeah, he didn't put handcuffs on us. We we did the did our best to do the right thing. We weren't out there shooting people that didn't deserve to be killed. We weren't doing anything like that to begin with. Um but he um he let us do our thing. And I I love and value that more than I can even put in words, you know. Like my kid, Lieutenant Dobb, came out and visited, visited me and my son that went to the Naval Academy. We had dinner with him, we ate with him, he came out and met. And I tell my kid, like I said, like I tell him stuff about Lieutenant Dobb because he wants to know about leadership and about being a lieutenant. And his dream is become like a you know, a great leader. I'm like, and I would just, as he's older now, like I mean, he's got a hold of me and said, hey, guess what we're learning about in um in the Naval Camera? We're learning about like the Battle of Ramadi. We're learning about these. I'm like, holy crap. Like my kids are my kids ask me, well, how do I know these names? I'm like, because you've been to their graves. Bolding? Like he goes, that's right. He remembers all like I've been they've been hearing these names since they were seven, eight years old, old enough to tell about. And now they're reading about it in in books, they're seeing it, and they've been to their graves. It's it's really like a it's kind of a crazy moment. Um yeah, but I tell him you want to my example is like you need to be a leader. If you go to the M tree, you need to be a leader like Lieutenant Dobb. You know? Um, other than that. I know that guy hated me at one time. I don't think he does anymore because we talk on the phone. Yeah, we communicate, you know, and um, but um, I know he at one time he probably wanted to choke the living shit out of me. He might still want to, but you know, it is joke you out of love.

SPEAKER_01

Out of love, love jokes. Well, other than keeping you out of jail, you remember any uh specific instances of his leadership? Any specific stories? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00

I just I just know that um he was the kind that didn't speak up until he had to, until he needed to. And when he did, you listened. Um, because you trusted in him. If you don't trust in a leader, it doesn't matter if they speak or not, you're not gonna hear the words coming out of his mouth. You'd rather not hear anything from. Um, but when he said something like you, you believed him, you trusted him. And he led by example like that dude wasn't afraid to kill somebody. He wasn't afraid to whoop some ass, you know? Yeah. Um he was he was about it, so you gotta respect that. Even the same with Sergeant Major, like love him or hate him, he was about it. He would go out there and fight, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um went from two ends of the spectrum. We went from wanting to beat the shit out of each other. I mean, straight up during that MJP to I love the guy now. Like I see him now, I love him. You know, he even came up to me at one of our reunions and gave me a coin and apologized to me for all that. I'm like, man, that's water under the bridge. That's part of our story. You know what I mean? Like, nothing in my life has ever been normal. Like, I wouldn't know how to even react if it was. So that's just the way it goes, you know.

SPEAKER_03

So I got a question for you, man. Like, so you you you're um, as you said before, you you had a a prior enlistment before all of this, so you had a lot of perspectives. So not only did you have age, but you were also you've done the Marine Corps once. And so did you have any specific thoughts of how we split up 81s and how there was Rainmaker and Sledgehammer. And did you have any? Were you just focused on your guys? And so it wasn't even a thought that we were in the other hooch and we were running our own missions. Um, no, dude.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I was over there a lot.

SPEAKER_03

No, I no, I know, I know, but I I just mean like anyways, go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00

No, um, you know, it was kind of interesting to me. I was thinking, we're in a big platoon, you know. Um, I was like, how are we gonna do this? Like, are we gonna break this down? Are we gonna go as one like massive platoon that it it would be too much, honestly? How many people do we have? 70, 60 something?

SPEAKER_03

68 is a perfect TO. I think we were just short of that. So short of that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, so we're in the 60s range. Yeah, so they're they broke us down. Um, like I said, with with me getting into the trouble that I got into before I went over there, I wasn't sure what they were gonna do with me. Um, I'm glad that they let me, you know, go go there and be the team leader and and stuff like that, because I feel like that's where I've I would have not done good listening to you know, I don't want to sound that way, but I wouldn't have listened. There's like it's funny you just read that. The only team you could have put me in that I would have said, dude, I'm not running this shit is Garcia's. You know. Any other body else, I would have just, sorry, bro, this is the way it's gonna be, you know. Um I you know, I just think that everything lined up like it should have, you know, in the long run. And then things that didn't line up at first, they made we made adjustments and we corrected it and moved forward with it. I think it went, I mean, look, we went through hell, and majority of us came home great. Um, that is a blessing in disguise. I mean, look, there's a lot of people that went to Iraq. There's a lot of people that even seen combat in Iraq. There are very few people that seen the combat that have the combat experience that we had. I'd say 95% of the people that went to that entire war did not have the experience that we had. We went through the grinder, dude. And um to think about what they did when we left. How many people, how many teams did they, how many units did they bring in to do what we were doing by ourselves? Right. Yeah, three additional.

SPEAKER_01

So it was three four pieces. Yeah.

Pride Loss And A Chow Hall Clash

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So got a lot of pride in that. But that's something nobody understands except the magnificent bastards. Nobody really understands that but us. You know, I mean, yeah. I remember just having a sense of pride in that. I remember almost, you know, when we had our snipers get killed on that roof. Um I it wasn't long after that that um going into the chow hall at I thought it was Blue Diamond, but Apple's corrected me. The old red bear, and he's like, no, that was um Junction City, JC. We we went in for it, it was a morning chow. We were taking some some prisoners back to the was that the breakfast in bed over there, and we would take them, and we were gonna go in there. We've been out all night, you know. We had, I believe it was walk-ins or somebody, had blood all over them. Um, we were really dirty. There was a bunch of shit going on. We were out doing missions, and so we went there to drop them off, and we were gonna eat chow in the morning. Maybe it was the afternoon, I can't remember how. But I just remembered this sergeant major like trying to jump our ass, like, you ain't coming in here to eat. He was an army sergeant major. And um, I said, What do you mean? We're not coming in here to eat. We are coming. He's like, You don't have a cover on. I said, I don't have one, I didn't bring one. He goes, You don't have a cover, you know. Say and he made, anyways, he made the comment about maybe if you guys had a little more discipline, those snipers on That roof would still be here. I lost my shit. Like you ever get so mad you have tears in your eyes? You're not crying because you're being a little bitch. You're crying because you want to lose your mind. Well, I ended up getting in his face for I told him straight up. I said, You make a comment like that again, I'm gonna beat your ass. I got in his face. Um, and I was talking to him like he was nothing. And I I promise you, I was waiting for him to say something so I could put my hands on him. He he never did. Like he showed up real quick. He probably was like, This dude's like I was losing it. Like, and that's a perfect time to lose it. Like, that's the last thing you can tell somebody in that situation. And then um after however long it went by, Lieutenant Dog comes around the corner and he's like, Hodges, go eat. So I just went to and I couldn't even eat. I was so mad. All I want to do is go out there and fight that guy. But that's yeah, those are your brothers, man. Like, I have pride. Even the guys that I thought were I didn't really like that much going on that deployment with, you know. Yeah, goose bags in my platoon. I love those guys more than anything now.

SPEAKER_03

Like, well, I appreciate that. You still now you love me now, buddy. I absolutely love you.

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna probably call both you guys nerds, but that wasn't because I was hating them. It was like because those two dudes are a lot smarter than me. So I'm gonna talk shit and call them nerds. I don't care. You know, that's just how I was, man.

SPEAKER_03

No, I know I'm just messing with.

SPEAKER_00

But um, that was a crazy situation. And once again, Lieutenant Dobb had my back, you know. Uh 100%. And I had heard from somebody else that that Sergeant Major had called our command and Sergeant Major Booker, who we hadn't really made up yet, but we were we were working together, good. We hadn't talked about all the shit that went on. But um, he ended up, I heard this, I don't know if it's true or not, but he's heard he ended up having my back and telling that Sergeant Major, tell me where you're at, and I'll come over there and kick your ass myself, you know. So, like stuff like that, when when you know people are having your back, there's no better feeling, man. That's just the way I felt about all the guys over there. That's why I love and respect all the dudes that have been on my team. Like I said, the T Bow, the Anchors, the Calderon, all of them. Like, I got so much love for those guys, and they probably at one time, I know for a fact that they thought I hated them because I have a funny story. On our reunion, when we got back, our first reunion, 10-year reunion, hadn't seen most of those guys since since then, you know. I was sitting at a table to eat with Tebow. Tebow's wife was there, and I believe somebody else came up, and Tebow's just sitting there smiling. I'm like, dude, what are you acting so corny for? You know, he was smiling. He goes, he goes, you're talking to us like you're talking to me like I'm like a normal human. I go, what are you talking about? He goes, like, you're not even talking shit. Like we're laughing and joking. I go, well, why does that surprise you? He goes, because you never did before. I'm like, what do you mean? And he was breaking it down to me. And I'm like, because all I did was mess with those guys. Like, like, I mean, it was fun for me, but I'm like getting a different perspective now. I'm like, you really thought that? He goes, I just thought you didn't like none of this. I'm like, dude, I love you guys. And so it's, and I just really thought, I was like, God, man, maybe, nah, I don't think it's the way it should have been, you know. Screw it. But um, that was like that opened my eyes, just that conversation. I was like, I really gotta do more to let these guys know how much I love and respect them, especially when I look back on the situation and think, man, they were so young. Yeah, they were so young, you know. Um, nothing but love for them, dude.

Faith Family And Fallen Brothers

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I've I've got nothing, nothing bad to say about any of the commands that I ever interfaced with. I unfortunately did not interface with very many of the line company commanders, so I don't have nothing to say for them. And maybe they hate all their commanders. I have no idea. But as far as weapons company goes, and then the headquarters guys, even the Motor T officers and stuff like that were all fantastic, which I I I don't know. I don't know that I would have said that back in garrison, but when we deployed, everybody was was great and and super super good to work with. And then the same thing, like you were saying, like some of the guys, the junior guys that were, you know, you you weren't sure what they were gonna do. Everybody really stood up, man. They absolutely stood up. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So you started to talk a little about your uh your grandmother giving you a motivational speech. And I'm curious, did you did you find yourself religious or did you have a good luck charm or anything?

SPEAKER_00

I was always faithful. Always I'm a God believer from day one. I mean, no, I look back at now. And I think that gave me a lot of the courage that I had to be is you know, to to overcome a lot of fears, I'd put it that way. To be able to do I I just felt like I just honestly felt like that's what I was there for. Like that's that was what my life had. I mean, since I was eight years old, I knew I was gonna be a Marine, and I knew specifically Marine, because I had both of my grandfathers were in the Marine Corps, one of them was in the Marine Corps and the Army. And I asked them, at a young age, six, seven, you know, which one was harder? And the one that was my grandpa that was in both branches said the Marine Corps. And I just made my mind up, that's what I'm gonna do. Like I didn't want to be a pro-football player, I didn't want to be a pro-baseball player. I wanted to be a freaking grunt Marine. That's all I wanted to do. I just felt like everything was just lined up that way for me. That's what that's what my interests were. My personality kind of just is that way. And um, she gave me this. Um, my grandma gave me the um, it was a she made a copy of all these Bible verses that were about, you know, war and standing up and in cheer and doing your thing and send me, you know. Um and um I had it with me and I have it to this day. I still have it to this day. It was it with me in Iraq, and I would look at that when you think you're, you know, you look at it and it just motivates the hell out of you. I still have it to this day. So like I said, I just felt like in the way she explained it, she's like, when it's your time, it's your time. You don't think about that, you just go. I believed it. I believed it wholeheartedly. I think for me, if you didn't believe in that, where do you get any faith from? I don't know. But that's just personal on my end. I don't care where anybody else gets it, I know where I get it. Uh it definitely helped me. I think it made me uh a lot braver than I would have would have been without it.

SPEAKER_01

This is a good segue, and I'm uh I'm interested to hear your part of it since uh he was in your platoon. What uh what do you remember of when Savage passed?

SPEAKER_00

You know? That was probably the first I remember crying. Um I just I had a s I had a special little, I don't know. I had so much respect for Savage when he was the one that said, I'll if you're drive if you're gonna ride, I'll drive with you. I'll be your driver. You know, we because that's in the beginning of the point when everybody was flying over. I wanted to go, I wanted to be on the ground. I wanted, and and Savage was the one that stood up and said, Yeah, I'll do it. I had such respect for that dude. Um yeah, I tried really hard not to break down um when when people, certain people died, but that one I couldn't. Because you know, you can't you can't dwell on shit. But we came back that day when we had some doctors. I just remember sitting back of the hood crying and hiding my face from everybody else. Um I didn't want nobody to see me acting like that, you know. But um I have I have the best relationship with his mom to this day. Um mama Savage, I love she's a mama to me. Um we still talk and we always will. Um I'm in the cr in all that madness, um, I'm blessed to have that relationship with her. You know what I'm saying? That's good, man. I'll never take it for granted. I'll always love her. Um, I talk smack to her, she talks smack back, it's perfect, you know.

unknown

It's good.

SPEAKER_00

I just, you know, some of the worst things that I felt in that deployment was just, you know, like when home got hit. I remember feeling the way I did, you know, when home got hit and early got hit. Um, do you remember what days that was?

SPEAKER_03

That would have been like March 28th-ish.

SPEAKER_00

It was the day that Hersher and them, I think Nyland saved their ass, pulled up when they were stranded in the middle of the road in the harbor that they had wrecked it, remember? And it was Gunny Mararkey had pulled up, and they were out there by themselves.

SPEAKER_01

So interestingly, Hersher told me that story. I do not remember that. But we might remember.

Sniper Roof Mystery And Telling Truth

SPEAKER_00

Um I just remember on that day we were out driving around looking for some shit, I guess. Um, and when that IED went off, um and it I don't know how Hurley lived through it. I thought he was gonna bleed to death. There was so much blood, and then home. You know, home was a youngster. Uh and and home got hit, and you already feel bad because you know he's messed up. So you feel bad in a way, but you don't have time to even acknowledge it. Now, you know, he gets hit. Uh my first reaction is I get pissed off because I want to go find who did it and mow him down. Um started yelling for his mom. He started screaming, Mama, out of just shock, I guess. Right. And like that, like that to me is what, oh man, it hit me in a way. Like it hit me kind of the same way that it hit me when the dang situation. And I just remember it probably looked like the meanest thing in the world to do at the time. And it probably did it for selfish reasons. Half of the reason was definitely selfish. I couldn't handle hearing him say that no more. Mama, mama. Not that it was a weak thing to do or anything like that. That's a young, what, 19, 20-year-old kid, however old he was. That's a big freaking deal. And it got him. He got he got right, he got hit pretty good. Yeah. And I just remember grabbing him and putting my hand over his mouth and telling him, shut the fuck up. Do not say that. And a part of me was because I didn't want to hear it, it was bothering me. I didn't want whoever set that idea, hearing it, getting satisfaction from it. Right. You know, um, that was another thing that that was a bad situation, you know, just hearing him scream, mama, and then going back to the truck. And um, and all these dudes I used to be like real assholes to, I don't even realizing, like, they they might have like, I don't know if they looked up to me, but they had a different kind of respect, I think, just because I had been around a little longer. And and Holmes like, Hodges, how am I gonna how am I doing? How am I gonna do? And I just remember looking at him, and dude, he had his body was just saturated with strap milk. And there I looked in the back of the Humvee, dude, there was so much blood in there. And I just remember telling him, You're gonna be fine, dude. You're gonna be fine, you're so tough. And he was just like having a conversation, but trying to keep it together at the same time. And it's like, holy crap, holy crap, you know. And then um, I remember when we got, we didn't see him after that. And when we got home, seeing old H-Baum standing there, Hurley, um, and he he looked completely different. I mean, it it did a number on him. Um, but it was so good seeing him, you know. Um, those are two situations, like I said, hearing Holm scream for his mom like that. Like I said, that there's some things that just hit you different than others. And that was one of them, you know. I know when um when um Walker got killed, no, it it hit me hard. I mean, Walker was my friend from 1996, you know. He he was my boot. I would take him to the e-club and say, hey, I'm probably gonna get in a fight tonight if more than one person jumps in to have my back. And he would, you know, he had these big old big ass ears and shaved head, and we would I would make fun of that dude. I have to believe that some of the reason he was tough is because of the hazing that I put him through. Because we weren't in the same platoon. We weren't in the same platoon, we were in the same company, but I live with him and another guy from heavy guns or whatever platoon he was in. And um I was just an abuser to boots, but he he took it well. He was one of those guys that took it, and you're like, this guy's gonna be he's gonna be good. He's gonna be good because you have a certain respect for him. Um, so losing him, that was a tough deal. I mean, anytime we lost somebody from golf company, because I had known those guys, it was a tough deal, you know. Um losing anybody's tough, you know. Um but um hearing the news, like I said, about about a lot of the guys that you've known even prior to that enlistment, passing away or getting killed like that on the same battlefield, it's it's tough, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Well, making uh making a transition, anything stand out through the summer? Anything off offhand? I know you said you don't remember dates very well. I can jog your memory for some events if you want, but otherwise, if nothing really stands out.

SPEAKER_00

Dog my memory here. Let's let's let's see some jog me.

SPEAKER_01

So the the next big bug hunt, which you guys all did like a lot of kicking down doors and stuff, was uh June 1st. Uh let's see, June 21st was those snipers getting killed. And I think if I remember correctly, and this will be me jogging your memory again, you guys were out there. Uh, and if anybody ever listens to this that's not one of our people that were in our battalion, which I don't know if there's anybody listening to this that's not in our battalion. But uh there's a lot of armchair quarterbacks about what happened to those snipers. But the rumor was always that they got poisoned or something because there was construction workers that worked in the base of that that building. And so they they weren't ambushed or anything like that. There was something else that had happened because there was no signs of a fight. But I think you were one of the ones that went up there and helped get the bodies down. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00

I I went up there, I did go to the roof, and I I do know I I think all the other bodies that we had they had come down, but I could sit there and describe exactly to a T where the radio guy was sitting. Yes. But his brains were on the back of that wall.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So somebody had shot him right there. I don't know anything about the poisoning or anything. I'm not even gonna pretend to know. Right, right. Same, me either. But but you know, I believe a lot of those guys were killed. One shot to the dome, and there was what two different, two different pistols or two different, yeah, two different pistols that did that according to the ammo that they found up there, the casings. Um it's a weird deal. I mean, for the I don't know. I just know that I went up there and I could tell where the radio man was at. I could you could see where everybody else was killed. Um it was a tough deal, man. That's why I took it so to heart when that sergeant major in the army had made those comments.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

I was I was yeah, what a real shitty thing to say, you know. Um real shitty. I remember, I don't know, it's crazy. This the whole story. There's like I said, some of the best days and worst days of my life were on that deployment. Um I remember what hearing them when the book was gonna come out after Greg Zerora had got a hold of me. I said, You heard that? Like, who told you that about me? You know, he knew the whole story about Sword Major Booker and me wanting to fight and all this stuff. And he's like, Yeah, you you were married and you got into a fight because somebody was yada yada. And I was like, You gotta be. I said, That's gonna be in the book. All the shit you can say about me, you're gonna put that in the book. It's kind of funny. So I remember having to tell my kids stories. Oh, but because my kids never knew I was married before, right? And I'm like, I'll bring some news to you. Um I was married before. They're like, What? I'm like, Yeah, you're gonna hear about it in this book. They're like, What book? And yeah, it was kind of funny. Um so, but them being old enough now to understand it all, and and they read the book and they go through it, and it's just like it's it's a it's a wake-up call. Like they're like, wow. Like I had told them some stuff, but you don't really, you can't tell them everything.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00

For one, I mean, think about it. And both of you guys will know, we could, we could all three, we could go into a bar and start telling, telling our stories and not even exaggerate a hair. And people are gonna say, that dude's full of shit, he's a liar. So I don't talk to people about like that. Like there's there are people that I can, I can, I can, I can, you know, especially if the book came out and they're like, they want to know. I'm like, yeah, I'll tell you this. Um, if if you're thinking bullshit, you can reference the book because it's public information. It's not like me right trying to say we did this and we did that. But the fact is, we did do this and we did do that. Right. You know, um all that stuff. Um it's kind of crazy. My my kids learned about it right now. And um I got to go speak at my kids um when he graduated from corporals course. Can you imagine back in the day somebody saying Hodges has been in has been voted to be a guest speaker as a son going through graduating corpus course? Every one of you would have said bullshit, and guess who else would have said it? Me.

SPEAKER_03

That's too funny.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, um it it's yeah, I mean, there's a lot of a lot of stuff. The book coming out, I had I'm I'm so glad it did come out. Um but part of it gives you like I had mixed feelings at first. I'm like, like there's a lot of stuff that these these parents are gonna read about their they knew their kids went over there and they knew they got killed fighting, and they didn't know the details like the book puts out. So I was like, man. Now I look at it like, man, I don't know if I like that or not. But then the other part of me is like, if you're gonna tell a story, tell a story.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and the only way you're gonna actually, it's hard to tell it if you don't put in all the stuff that's real. And and that dude kept it real. He damn sure did. Yep. Right in the book. And then there's there's a ton of stories that they didn't even make it to the book. You know why? Because the book would be 9,000 pages long. Yeah, yeah, no, he's if they really wanted to go into a whole detail about everybody's experience and everything like that. It would be a series and it'd take like a month to get through, you know. Um it's pretty crazy, you know.

SPEAKER_01

There's um well, it took him over two years to compile all the information, so yeah, it probably would be six books if he actually expanded it all the way out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and in the process of that, he lost his wife to cancer. Oh I didn't I didn't know about it. She was she was a proofreader, she was a big part of it. And it I talked to him a little bit about that, and we stayed in touch a little. Um, it was a tough, tough go around for him. So I give that guy the ultimate credit. And he did, he he knew things about me that I'm like, how did you hear that? And he had heard from somebody, cross-referenced with somebody. I'm like, dang. Yeah, so I feel like pretty good about you know the stuff that he put in there. He did his diligence in getting the research done. Yeah, um, I I never knew that the whole thing about us being the first people, you know, like kind of like the first time that in history that somebody had been sent out was sent out with me, the lioness. I'm like, yeah, who would have I would I would have never thought that in a million years. It's funny to me. Like it's funny to me. If I tell that story, nobody's gonna believe it. Me and Lieutenant Down were laughing, we're like, you gotta be shitting me. Yeah, that was the first time, you know. Um it's just a wild deal. Um, you know, I don't know.

Coming Home And Reenlist Decisions

SPEAKER_01

Well, let's let's bring it home, both literally and with the story. How'd it feel coming home, man?

SPEAKER_00

Well, when I first got home, you know, I I was gonna I you know I stayed afterwards and did the the um seat the seat with the um the next unit coming over. So everybody else came back. I stayed back. Didn't you guys stay back? Yes, yeah. So there was how many was there? There wasn't a lot. A couple from each platoon.

SPEAKER_01

It made three or four from each platoon, and I think it was just me and Mustard, right? Uh Garcia was with you.

SPEAKER_00

Garcia was with us. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Diaz Diaz was out there too, so was Reeves.

SPEAKER_00

Brad, come up, Brad. Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Jason Reeves, too. Because okay, because Diaz Diaz and Reeves got hurt on the on that guard on that tower when the that mortar like broke his leg, peppered Reeves and blew me off the ladder on that, yeah, on the 12th or whatever. And so that's crazy. And I think were you the one that no, well, that was Reeves, never mind. Anyway, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00

What was we even talking about? You got me tripped up now. See, I told you. Wrapping it up and and heading home. Oh, yeah, yeah. So when we got home, like my whole plan, I had already talked to um Steph, I mean, um, first sergeant Mac about it. I was like, hey, when we get there, I'm gonna go on leave and I'm gonna go right back to Ramadi. I'm gonna go join 2-5. And he we agreed to it. We got home, and then that's when um who was it that got killed that stayed with them? Um Ryan. Ryan. When Ryan got killed, I gotta give props to first sergeant Mac because he's another guy. He had my back in situations that he shouldn't. I've done, you know, when I was a Lance Corporal slapping sergeant and slapping a corporal, and somebody would tell on me, and I'd have to go in there, and he'd just be like, Hodges. Like he like he understood, but he could have easily charged me. I mean, he never did. He had my back, you know. Um, and I got a lot of respect and love for that guy. But when we got back from that deployment and um I had talked to him again, I'm like, hey, what do I need to do to get My shit in line to go ahead and go over there again. He goes, You're not going. I said, but I want to go. He goes, You ain't going. And I was like, well, why? And the man almost broke down in tears explaining to me how Ryan had got killed. And he said, I cannot and will not allow anybody else that made it home from that deployment to go right back over there right now and die on that deployment. He goes, I couldn't live with myself. He's another guy that was very religious, and he he looked like a just a big old animal that can kill you with just by one hand. Yeah, he was a he was a monster. And um, but to see that soft side of him and almost break down and start crying, and he's like, tell me he's like, I just know. Like I'm wanting me to agree to it, but at the same time reassuring me, I'm not gonna let you. Like he wanted me to feel better about saying, Yeah, you're right, I don't want to go. But I did want to go, but he wasn't gonna let it happen. And I respect him for that and for the reasons, then he did it. You know, um, you know, um, big old, big old animal, first man. He walked in a room, people like, whoa.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you know. So did you end up going over on the Oki Tour then?

SPEAKER_00

On the one, so after that, I ended up going to wounded regiment, battalion. You know, it's funny after all the shit that I went through with um, this is another funny story that I went through with um Sergeant Major Booker before that deployment. You know, of course, you go to war with somebody and you you you respect them in a whole different way. Like I love the guy now. Um when we got back, this was the guy that was threatening to uh you know court-martial me. He was like, What are you gonna do now? I said, I want to reenlist. He's like, Let's go. He took me to the um career planner. At the time he was at at 2-4, like, you know how they they'll come and visit and set up the table. And we went over there, and it was a gunnery sergeant. I can't remember his name. Um, but he was a sergeant in my platoon when I was in 3-4 in weapons company. He's like, You gotta be shitting me. What is he? Yeah, he was like, You gotta be kidding me. He was like, they let you back in the Marine Corps. It's like even better. He wants me to re-enlist it with Sergeant Major Booker. You know, they were gonna have to send me the wounded resident battalion. And they said you could be on medical hold for up to three years right now, because um, everybody that's um coming back from the deployments right now, it's like a medical hold. And they said these it's taking forever to get through these. And, you know, you can't pick up rank, you can't really do anything, but stay there until they do their physical and all this stuff. And then, but they told me, you know, with your back injuries and stuff like that, um, you're gonna have to go get all this MRIs and stuff done. They're like, you probably stay, but you're gonna end up having to get out of the infantry. I was like, nah, I'm not. No. I mean, no, no disrespect to any other job, but that's that's all I knew. Um, I wasn't gonna be good at any other job they put me in. So I was like, then there's no point in it. You know, so I got out like a little after nine years. Okay. So don't regret any bit of it. Loved every second of it. The greatest friends I've ever met in the world were in those two enlistments. Um, they're the closest people that I've ever been to. And um everything was worth it for me. Every bit of it.

Suicide Prevention Work And Post-Traumatic Growth

SPEAKER_01

So nice, man. Yep. And if I remember correctly, and you yeah, I might be wrong. I might have to cut this out later, but you did some stuff with uh with veterans afterwards, right? You worked for a couple veterans organizations.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. When I got out of the of the Marines, um I had worked a couple jobs I was I was successful at, but I just it wasn't fulfilling like I wanted it to be, you know. And you get I get bored with shit easy, you know. Um two, three, four years into a job. I'm like, yeah, it's time for something else. Um, so I ended up getting picked up by the Wonder Warrior program um originally, and um, they introduced me to some people in different organizations, and um, you know, we had that big we had so many people come home from 2-4 commit suicide, like so many. And the story got out, and uh, for whatever reason, it it's a lot of people that were going through, I won't give names, we're going through a lot of serious hard times from our battalion, even guys that I very they knew me because of my antics and my loudness, but I kind of knew who they were, but I didn't know them as as well as they knew me. Um, they would reach out to me and they would say, Hey, I feel like you know, hurting myself or I feel like ending my life. And it's just weird how that happened because I was like, why would they call me? You know, but I just I don't know. It just worked out to that way where people would, I don't know, felt comfortable enough to talk to me about stuff like that. And I would shoot it to them straight, like no bullshit, straight. And um, but I did it with like in a hard way, but with love. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, like a best friend would say, Look, dude, you don't need to hear this, but you're being a little bitch right now. Or you might want to think about this, you know, you have to hear it from from that. And so it just opened up so many doors, and I ended up traveling around, you know, speaking at different suicide prevention and programs and raising money and stuff like that. And I did that for a while. I did it until COVID hit. And COVID took a lot of the nonprofits.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

They didn't get any money for that stuff no more. Yeah, so um, you know, I still went and I did a lot of speeches and stuff for like uh veterans events, and you know, there was like the guy, Exxon would hire me to come out and speak to. They had they were starting a branch of um with their HR that was specifically for their for their employees that had experienced combat and was dealing with PTSD and stuff like that. So I was able to to get involved with stuff like that and start, you know, start things like that for companies and programs that I would have never been able to do if I didn't have the experience that I have or them just being leaked that. You know, we had our camera crew come out from from California that come out. It's another funny story. When I found out that I was having problems sleeping, I it was like, I think I got a brain injury. I don't understand. I can't remember shit like this. Something's wrong. I need to get help. The VA was just not taking me serious, and in true form, I get a hold of a doctor and I said, Hey, dude, here's the deal. Doctor, I'm not gonna say his name. Um, and I threatened him. I said, I just don't feel like the VA is giving me any attention. So here's the deal. I left this on a voicemail, which I know he can explain that to anybody. But I didn't say, you know, when when you've had like the sergeant major in the army thing, when you've had enough, you don't think about consequences because you don't care. Right. Never been one to think a lot about consequences. I just did my I mean, I'll deal with it after the fact. But um, I said, here's the deal. And I had been reading all these reports about it linking, you know, head injuries and the same symptoms that I had linking to like Alzheimer's and and all this, you know, CTE and all that suicide stuff. And um, I don't know, I went through a little, I went through a hard batch of depression. It wasn't, it was mostly about the people we lost. It wasn't about nothing else, really. It was just about that. And um, I realized a lot of it was me bringing some of it on myself, kind of wallowing in it. I just felt like I needed to tell people they need to quit doing maybe what I was doing. You definitely need to get your help, but some of it's all between your ears, you know, um, or mainly between your ears. And I was putting that message out there, and um like I said, we got to start these different programs, and um, it just I was I feel like it's all worked out the way it should and I've been blessed. Even going through all the bullshit we went through, like that's just part of it. Like they think that was all meant. It was meant to be. Um, you hear people talking about the post-traumatic stress and all this, but I remember General Mass talking about it. I'm agreeing. Like, I think I experienced a lot of post-traumatic growth. Like, I'm like, shit, life ain't that bad right now. Nobody is, I'm having a bad day. I'm like, not one person has tried to kill me today. Yeah. I mean, they might have, but I didn't know about it, you know. Right, right. Like nobody, I didn't have a friend lose his life today. I didn't have, I didn't have an ID go off, you know. Um there's a lot to be gained from that experience. It's not just supposed to be all negative. It's not. Like I said, I'm you know, we have a lot of guys that we went on deployment with that didn't get to experience that. They trained these Marines that went on that deployment with us for four years, and we get bumped on our last deployment. So they say, screw this, I'm not gonna re-enlist. So they don't re-enlist, and then we end up going seeing the heaviest shit the Boar could produce. And and a lot of them, they have cried to me. They're like, I feel so guilty. I'm like, I understand why you feel that way. I would probably feel that way, but here's the reality if you don't think that your involvement or your Marine Corps time of your experience with us in that situation, look at all the guys, and I've there was two of them specifically. I pointed out directly. Let me tell you about this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. They went over there and they were successful at what they did. Do you want to know why? No, because you were their squad leader, you were their team leader, you were a hard ass to them. You put them through the shit, and they only responded by the way you trained them to respond. So you directly impacted those deployments, probably helped save their lives and kill enemy and save other Marines' lives just by you training them and have them under that. Don't feel like you missed the boat completely because you weren't there. Dude, you you impacted the platoon and these individuals significantly more than I mean, you're not gonna train anybody in two weeks how to go be a war vet. But you can train them over the course of time, and that's exactly what these guys have done. And they don't ever give themselves credit. And I think a lot needs to be said for those guys, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Um I've I've been very vocal about that.

SPEAKER_00

I have I'm I just remember a couple of them specifically come and guys you would not expect, and they just cried to me. I'm like, you know, I understand, but I'm like, you better stop that shit now. And call them a few choice words that only Marines call each other is an expression of love. A whole lot of love. If I didn't call you this right now, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, you wouldn't think I loved you, you know. But I think those guys need to, there's something needs to be said about those guys. The people that put in the work to these youngsters that went over there, and they might I wouldn't call it getting glory, but they get the glory. Um, and these other guys that just they feel like because they didn't experience the combat part of it, they didn't have an impact. That's that's that's a lie. They directly impacted it, you know. A hundred percent. And I'm grateful that all of those guys were in those positions that they needed to be in at that time because that helped every one of us, you, me, and everybody else.

SPEAKER_03

I've uh I've stayed close with my senior Marines, Mark Shott, Saunders. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely that and I've been very vocal with them of being like, I'm I came back because of the of you guys. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I had a lot of guys that when I was out giving, you know, and I still will on occasion, but it's just hard to do without the money coming in from, you know, ever since COVID, it's just that line of work has taken a hit, you know. Sure. Oh, because those businesses went out and they just don't have what it takes to start up again. But um, a lot of people that I would talk to, a good portion of them were guys like that. They were having legitimate issues struggling with depression because they felt like they just felt bad. I'm like, why do you feel bad about that? That wasn't in your hands. Because you know it, if somebody would have said, hey, if you just stay around for one more deployment, you guys are gonna go to Christian hole on the planet, and you're gonna be, they would have said, sign, where do I sign right now? They would have done it. Yep, but they had a bad taste in their mouth, and they're like, no, I'm not gonna do it. And every one of them regretted it. I'm like, you can't regret something like that, you know. You just can't regret something like that. So yeah, that was a lot. A lot of the people that I talked to were like that um in that same situation. I felt bad for them because I feel like honestly, if I was in the same position as them, I might be the same as them. I might be feeling that same way. You just you want to be in the fight. I remember it's it's so crazy. It's not even a normal way of thinking. When we first got there, and you'd hear the rounds going off out in town, and you know weapons company, weapons company got to go everywhere, fight everybody with every company. And I love that shit. Everywhere there was a battle in Ramadi, we've been there. Weapons company was there. Um, I got to take pride in that. We fought along every company. I can tell you everything about it, you know. Um, that's something else that I take pride in, but um I forgot the point I was trying to make once again. What was we saying?

Closing And Next Parts

SPEAKER_01

No, you're good, man. We're just kind of wrapping it up anyway. Actually, that's that's probably a good place to to cap it off. It's been a couple hours.

SPEAKER_03

If you like what you've heard, this is a multi part episode. Make sure you listen to the rest of the story.