The Modern Idol Nobody's Talking about

Jake Doberenz grew up in the church, armed with theology, certainty, and the confidence of a teenager who believed he had everything figured out. But college humbled him — and God rebuilt him.
In this powerful conversation, Jake shares how pride, control, and intellectualism became idols in his life, and how God used mentors, Scripture, and unexpected experiences to reshape his faith. We talk about:
• The difference between knowing God and walking with God
• Why modern idols are often invisible — like productivity, success, and efficiency
• How Christians complicate the simple message of Jesus
• Why men must learn to lead spiritually without fitting neatly into any camp
• What it means to follow Jesus’ messier, more demanding third way
• How hope becomes a weapon for discouraged men
This episode will challenge you, convict you, and call you deeper into an uncompromised life with Jesus.

Smashing Idols: Stories & Reflections on Following Jesus | Jake Doberenz | Substack

Want to be a guest on The Valiant Forge Podcast? Send Mark Osborne a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/17432638464878159623a121d

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What if the biggest idol in your life isn't money, fame, or success, but the belief that you already know everything? My guest today, Jake Dobarans, grew up in the church armed with theology, certainty, and the confidence of a fifteen year old who thought he had it all figured out. But college shattered that illusion, and God rebuilt him into a man who discovered the difference between knowing about God and walking with him. In this episode, we talk about modern idols, the trap of efficiency, the danger of Christian arrogance, and why Jesus calls us into a messier, more demanding third way. If you've ever felt torn between camps, pressured to pick a side, or frustrated by your own pride, this conversation is for you.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Welcome to the Valiant Forge Podcast, where we help men overcome life's battles, show up better in the world, and become a valiant warrior for God. This is a place where we share practical strategies that will equip you on life's journey to help you become the man God has called you to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Explain that quote to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Well, yeah, I mean, when it when it comes to my my testimony, my story, I don't have the testimony of before Jesus, I was on drugs and doing this and sinning all crazy. I don't have that kind of testimony. What I do have the testimony is I was raised in the church, was always in the church, the doors were open, I was in the church and all of that. But that doesn't mean there was a there wasn't a before time in a way. There was a not so great time. And so growing up, um, I I got real into this Jesus thing, got real passionate about everything. My my dad owned a Christian bookstore. Um, his name was also Mark, and uh he he owned this Christian bookstore, so you got all this access to to material that told you, hey, by the way, you're right, and everybody else in the world is wrong about everything. And here's exactly how to interpret everything. So convenient, so nice. Um, so I learned, well, what I thought I learned was I learned how to interpret everything, and I mean everybody else is wrong. So yeah, I I thought I knew everything um growing up, and that led to a spirit of divisiveness, of anger, of um definitely not loving your enemy, things like that of that nature, because you know, I was 15. I was like, well, good thing I I got everything figured out. I'm good, I'm anything else here, you know. Because every 15-year-old absolutely brilliant, just super smart.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yes, yep. Yeah. Yeah, and I could imagine a 15-year-old who has been downloaded a whole bunch of theology from the Bible, like just a normal 15-year-old adolescent feels like they know everything and they got it all figured out. I've I've raised two daughters, so I've gone through that twice. Where dad, you don't know. You don't know what the other kids are like, you don't know what's going on. Like, I've been through this, and now I'm going through it a little bit with my granddaughter, who's 13. She's just just turned 14, actually, and she's like, Oh, she calls me a pop-pop. She said, Pop pop, you don't know because kids in school are different than when you grow up. I'm like, Yeah, that's what I heard from your mom. So, yeah. So, what what helped you grow up?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

I I mean, I some people are surprised by this, but it was it was college, it was education. You would in th you would think maybe that would like reinforce some of my beliefs or something because I was learning things, but I I I came from a public school where I was the Christian missionary to the public school. I was the guy trying to convince everybody. Then I went to a Christian school and learned that, well, there are really smart Christians who have different beliefs on things. And there are really smart people who are telling me, yeah, maybe you should look at it this way. Um, and I wish they were being really mean about it. Like that would have been a little nicer, you know, at least for me, if they were like, you know, the the kind of the cliche, even though it's a Christian school, the cliche college professor trying to like, you know, ruin your faith or something. But they were actually nice about it. And they just said, yeah, no, there's this perspective, but you could also look over here too, and here's some information. And so it actually humbled me. Um, being the uh the the the literally the freshman on campus, being the new guy who who wasn't who's so clearly not the smartest guy in the room, eventually humbled me. And I kind of got to for the first time have like an actual faith um in Jesus. It wasn't just intellectual assent, you know, it wasn't just I knew all the right things to say and the things that to do to do, it was an actual relationship. Once I kind of got um torn out of me this this desire, this this thinking that I knew everything, I could finally say, okay, if it's not all about the facts and the figures and the Bible trivia, what is this thing about? Um, and so I really felt like I got to finally experience because there were some gracious mentors and professors who were like, I've seen this before, you know, at this point, 18-year-olds coming on campus thinking they're the big man on campus. Nope. Um, and they graciously pointed me towards a better way. Uh, and through church connections or through mentors and things like that, I was able to learn. I actually don't know everything, and in that process, um, kind of get in more into that relational side of faith.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah. So was there a point when you're you felt like your faith was unraveling and did God rebuild you in s in a way?

SPEAKER_02 6:42

I I think so. I think you know it happened uh a lot in so you know, I I did my bachelor's in biblical studies, then I did my master's of theological studies. Like I was still nerding out about this stuff. I was still on that intellectual path for sure, but you just get exposed to to different ideas and just different lines of thinking. And then you you you understand church history. It's like, wait a second, the things that I thought everybody just believed are some of them are kind of new things on the block in the in the Christian grand scheme of things. Um, and and so yeah, along that whole process, uh things unravel and there is some rebuilding there, you know. Uh there's a there's a term we sometimes use, uh deconstruction. I've never really kind of owned that word, but you'll hear a lot of people, especially my age, talk about that deconstruction. Uh maybe I went through that, but I feel like a lot of it has been reconstruction since then. You know, we're we're smashing the idols, but now we gotta kind of rearrange the room. What do we do now that we smashed all the idols and you know the pedestals are empty, kind of thing, to use an extended metaphor.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

So can you talk about the difference between the knowledge of God and the relationship of God? Kind of on a practical sense, but how how that fit into your journey?

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Yeah, I mean, knowing is important. Uh, we need belief. Um, that's obviously that's a part of the program here. Uh, in fact, if if you read a lot of Paul's letters, it starts with theology and then moves into um practice. Uh, you know, it's orthodoxy and then orthopraxy, as is sometimes put. Um, there's a rhythm there. That's how you start with knowledge, but then it has to it has to mean something. Um and so it's not like it's not like they're opposing forces. It's just you they you need them both hand in hand. You need them both together. Uh the the knowledge is great, the thinking is great, but if that doesn't do anything, we've lost the plot. Like what are we doing here? Um, you know, I I I researched from my master's thesis um some of this these metaphors in the New Testament about uh children and and growing up, you know, speaking of growing up and things like that. Uh Paul likes this, Jesus uses the metaphor of children, but they use it a little differently than how Paul does. Um and and there's this there's this consistent theme of you need to grow up, you need to grow up. Um, and I for a while I thought, oh, that means you got to get smarter, you know. That's that's what growing up means. You know more. And that's again, it's not not a part of the system, but in in as we see this as growing up, and if you think it look at the culture, growing up means you get with the program. You in the Roman society, you adopt the Roman values, the Roman standards, and things like that. Obviously, the Christians are not using it with the in Roman values in mind, but the whole idea of growing up, of not being a baby anymore, of being adult, of having the solid food, the whole idea is no, you've now adopted the character that we want, that the Christian community wants, that Jesus wants you to have. Um, so yeah, they're not opposed, there's just one needs to kind of flow from the other. From knowledge, our character, our behavior, our relationship flows. That's supposed to be the design, and when we miss one of those pieces, we get in trouble. We do.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah. So looking back, are there any truths that became simpler after you developed the relationship rather than more of the knowledge? Because you surrendered more of something that became truer to you than the knowledge of it.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the big one that comes to mind is my relationship with with scripture as a thing, as an influence in my life, because there's one view that reads scripture as a proof text. We gotta prove an argument, we gotta figure out the why. Um, and again, there's there's a place for that. I'm obviously a fan of of study and dwelling in the word and things like that, but often the unintended result for me was scripture became how to hit somebody else over the head with it, you know, like how to how to prove them wrong, how to do that. And then I realized, whoa, wait a second, it's actually talking to me. Like I had something to say to me about how I live my life 2,000, whatever, thousand years later. Um, I think that was a very, very significant shift for me. I mean, I literally did read the Bible as homework. I mean, it was a Bible major. Uh, so there was still some of that in college, but beginning to see this isn't just a fun book, this isn't just the Iliad, this isn't just Dante's Inferno, this is something a little different going on here. It's asking me, it's demanding something of me. And so to begin to see that God is trying to speak to um these big questions of the universe of how we should behave and and be and how this all fits together. Um, those are some really important questions, more than just uh, you know, God trying to tell tell us about um, oh, this little thing happened here, or I really want you to care about this one tiny verse that you see. Um, you know, that's like the most important verse that appears there once. There's a bigger picture, there's a bigger plan here, there's a story that we're entering into. So that was a huge shift for me.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah. So how can someone who knows a lot of the Bible and has a lot of the theology share the gospel in a simple way without giving too much theology and not sounding like they know it all? Because the gospel of Christ is simple, right? And we're supposed to share that truth with love, not with arrogance. And I'm not saying you were arrogant, but sometimes I was. And I I I've met people along the way who know a lot of Bible, and they they can sometimes come off a little arrogant. So, how can a person who has that issue share the gospel of Christ in a loving, truthful way that it would reach someone?

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Well, I mean, that's a phenomenal question. Um it goes into what I just mentioned a little bit. I I mentioned God's story. I think a mistake that a lot of people make with sharing the gospel is we make it about individuals. It's about what you gotta do. You gotta go with the program. I'm not saying that, again, it's another one of these cases of that's not not a part of it, it's just not the whole picture. Um, there is a story of God, there's something God's doing in the world that, quite frankly, God's gonna do, whether you go with the program or not. And I think it's beautiful to talk about the story of God, God's relationship with humanity, even when humanity has not made the best of choices by any stretch of the imagination. And and then sending Jesus as as the climax of this story to say, hey, I care about humanity so much, I want to hang out with you guys. And yeah, I'm gonna experience what you experience, the same pain, the suffering, all that stuff. Um, you know, Jesus experienced this human life. Like, I like to focus on that because that's just a cool story. That's a cool story, right? And I haven't demanded you do anything yet as I tell that story. Um, and and and I guess I I wouldn't demand, that's not the language I would use at all, but I would say that God is inviting all of us to be a part of this story. There, we're in a building project here, once you as one of the workers here, we're doing this cool thing, building um, I'm gonna be careful with the language here. Building the kingdom of God on earth, ultimately, the kingdom will be fulfilled, not kind of on this existence in this in this life, but there's there we're doing things on earth. Every time the church gathers and displays the fruit of the spirit, there's a little bit of that kingdom, there's a little bit of heaven on earth, literally. Uh, and we're a part of this project and things. So uh you know, I'm a storyteller, I'm I'm a novelist and a playwright too, and so maybe I'm just um you know, funny enough, I'm I'm leaning more into that right brain thinking. Um despite that being that intellectual growing up, I realized, oh, actually, you know, stories and emotion, that's actually how people kind of communicate a lot of the time. Yeah, precisely. Um, so leading into that, um, without using some of those, you know,$20 words, whatever dollar amount rights, you know, yeah, propitiation. Whoa, what's going on there? You know, no. Um, that just makes you sound smart and makes it seem like you're trying to prove something over on somebody. Um, I just say, hey, here's the story. Come on in. We're doing some cool stuff.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Amen. Yeah. So you're to you were talking about how us humans have have done wrong by a numerous amount. So let's get let's get into the smashing idols things for a little bit here. So what what would you call an idol?

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Yeah, so an idol to me is anything we focus on um and and prioritize, and most people would agree with that part. And then I kind of add this second part that so that we can have some kind of control. Because when I was growing up, and I would hear a sermon or two, and and I do actually remember a Bible class about this. It's like a middle school Bible class where there was one kid in the youth group who um would stay up really late Saturday nights playing video games, and so this was called an idol. Video games were his idol because he was so tired on Sunday mornings. Um, and and I'm not suggesting that what he did was wise or smart, and he could have been an idol in his life, but when we look at biblically, when we ask our question with the question, why in the world would an Israelite go after an idol? What is appealing about that at all? Because why why do they want a gold statue? What's the deal? Right, and and I think the deal is that we want control. The idols promise us something. So a true idol in your life promises you something, and you really want that promise. So you're gonna prioritize, you're gonna hold on to this idol, even you know, when it might replace God. Or, you know, a lot of us, a lot of good, honest Christians, just try to sneak that right next to God, you know. We don't want to play favorites, or this that's what we say, right? We'll just have this and God, um, because I think a lot of us don't fully believe that God can do everything that is promised. Um God is a generalist, as I sometimes say. Um, whereas you know, in ancient times, the other gods, this guy was in charge of the storm, this guy helped you have babies. Um, for some reason, just in our human mind, we want to go to the specialist, right? And I mean, if we went to the doctor, if we had a nose problem, we'd want to go to a nose doctor, you know, um, or something like that. And it's the same kind of thing with idols. We don't have faith that God can do it all, and and and everybody else promises something that seems a little easier, seems a little more direct, where God doesn't really do direct half the time, not really his MO.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah. I know you mentioned video games, and it really your your time, because that's what video games do, is they suck your time away. I've I've been there, been there. I've smashed that idol a few times. I may have to do it again, but so you mentioned video games. What are some other modern idols that people could have?

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah, well, a lot of idols are not something you could touch and poke and prod or even bow down to. Um I I think there are forces uh in our culture that we become slaves to. Uh, and and one of these that I've been on, I've been ranting about, if you will, for a while, is is greed, is money. Um you know, we had we had a great episode of my podcast, Christianity Without Compromise, where m Mick Weinhold came on and talked about um how like paying off a mortgage wasn't idle for him because he just wanted the safety net of not having more debt. And so his whole thing became I gotta pay off my mortgage, I gotta pay off my mortgage, which there's nothing inherently wrong with the mortgage, but it became because I want the safety that more money brings me. I want that safety ultimately, so that's how we get in trouble there. So, so money, greed, things like that um are the root of all kinds of evil, to quote Paul. That is a big one that a lot of us say, I'm just gonna sneak that right next to God, but ultimately becomes about control and safety. Because you know what? Absolutely, if I had a lot of money, I don't think, I mean, who knows, but I don't think I would buy a private jet, I don't think I would buy a mansion, but I would sure like I would love to have that like level of comfortability. There would, you know, there would be a lot less anxiety about where's the next meal if something happens to my car again, because I have terrible luck with cars, you know, stuff like that. So greed is one of those. Um related, but a little different that I rant about a lot as well, um, is efficiency, optimization, productivity. Yeah, this is something again, you can't poke and prod it, but it becomes the ultimate value. And and I tell the story a lot about uh this experiment at Princeton Theological Seminary where these seminarians, priests, pastors, they were gonna preach on um the the sermon or the parable of the good Samaritan, which as we know is about helping somebody in need. And so for this experiment, they told them, they set it up where they said, Oh, I'm sorry, you're not you showed up at this building. It's actually that building across town, or across the campus, I mean, and by the way, you're late. And on this route that they knew they had to take, they put like a guy that looked like he was kind of homeless or he was crying out. Need or something like that. There's something there. And so these were trained ministers of God that had just prepared a sermon on the Good Samaritan. And it's it was something like 10% of them actually stopped to talk to this person to see what they needed to help them out to actually practice literally practice what they were going to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

That's what they were preaching for.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah. Um, and and there's a lot of different things we can take from that story, but one of those is we get so focused on the goal. We got to go the most efficient route, the most direct route. I already mentioned God doesn't do direct. It's like, hey, how about we instead of go around here, how about we cross through the Red Sea? There's a thought, you know. Or with the story of Lazarus, uh, Jesus could have snapped his fingers, uh, you know, or healed gone quicker and healed Lazarus when he was just sick. But then there was this whole, well, I'm gonna actually chill out here, and it ended up being four days, and now he dies. Like, God does not choose the paths that make sense to us. Efficiency is not always uh something that matches and jives with the gospel. So that's one. I don't know, you want to go more?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Like there's there's several different ones, but you convicted me with the you you convicted me with the efficiency because I'm a I'm a systems and routine kind of guy. Yeah, I've learned that's the best systems, like the yeah, I I was not a disciplined person for most of my life. And then I had this come to Jesus moment where my fitness was in trouble and I had to have a mild heart attack. I'm not gonna go too much into it, but the way that I gained discipline through that got me down the self-development path, the productivity path. And I learned to develop systems. So I wake up at a certain time every morning, and I I certain time every I have alarms that go off on my phone so I can be productive and optimize my time.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

And sometimes I forget about God in all of that. So man, that that really convicted me.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Yeah, you know, it's not it's not bad to be productive or to optimize, but I always ask myself quite this question like, uh, who am I ignoring? If I if my mind is so focused on XYZ goal, what am I missing at? Do I not see the person in need? Did I forget about God today? Did I, you know, ignore my spouse? Whatever it is, that's what we have to ask ourselves. That's when that becomes that idol, when it takes us away and becomes too much of a priority.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yeah. So what's what's one idol you've personally had to confront and tear down?

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have the story of um me being the know it all. That is, of course, uh an idol I had to tear down the the need to always be right. And I mean, you can ask my wife, and she'll still tell you that maybe I'm working on that, working on the humility thing still a little bit. Um, but yeah, that's that was definitely a big one that I had to face. Um, because I really don't like being wrong. Um, when somebody says a fact that I'm like, I I feel like that's not even correct. Could be whatever. Oh, so and so actor is so I'm human, exactly. I'm like, I gotta get the Google out because I'm pretty sure you were wrong. The actor was not in that movie, was in a different one, you know, whatever it is. So still one I'm always facing. Um, but I think the biggest one, honestly, for me, even though it didn't feature as much in that story, but it is related, is is a success because I find myself still wanting to kind of have a name for myself to kind of uh I want to do something big in the world, uh something I struggled with a long time. You know, I got those degrees in Bible and theology, um, and for a long time I really resisted like a call to local church ministry. And I'll be honest with you, it was because I was like, I don't know, that just seems so limiting. Just a couple hundred people at a church, maybe, you know, maybe a little bit more, depending on the size. Like, like, I don't know. I feel like I'm kind of like better than that, you know. Um, and so having to wrestle with that. And and now, though I'm not the full-time minister, now I preach at a church that has like um 15 people on a on a like a good Sunday. I go out and drive two hours, at least once a month, sometimes twice, and go preach for this little church in the middle of nowhere's Oklahoma. And um 15 on a good day, most of the time it's like 10 people, and they're all like over 75, and and most of them sleep during my sermon. It's great. Uh so talk about humility, talk about smashing the idols when it comes to my influences. But hey, you know, I still catch myself checking my I I did I just did this today, I'll be honest with you, Mark. Like checking my downloads on my podcast, refreshing that page. What if somebody listened in the last five minutes? I gotta know, you know, I I'm still working on that, but I have come leaps and bound for sure. Um and and realized like when it comes to you know internet notoriety or whatever, you might be aware, like saying the most like egregious crazy things is a great way to go viral. Yeah, um, and and I've had to really face that, like, I that's not gonna be me. I have to consciously make choices of I I could say this and I could probably get a lot of people clapping, but I'm I'm not gonna say that. Yeah, I I I gotta stick with my principles here. I'm not gonna compromise. Um, and so that is a constant battle. That's something to remember about idols. It's not one and done. Not really.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

I mean, maybe it was maybe it is for some people, but it probably wasn't that strong of an idol to begin with, but uh, you know, constant battle, constant battle.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah. I mean, if you think of the story of Gideon, he went down and tore down an idol to get on his path to fulfilling what God called him to do. But then at the end of his life, he kind of went back a little bit. You know, it's we all we all struggle. I'm actually going through a series right now in my church of nine men in the Bible who, when you really look at the full picture, they could have been a failure, but God used them in mighty ways. You know, Gideon's one of them, and David and Moses, and there's a there's a list. But yeah, it's it's so easy. I I myself, like, I'm identifying with a lot of what you're saying. Like, you know, where were I don't know when people will be listening to this podcast, but recently Charlie Kirk was assassinated, and I saw all these people on YouTube talking about Charlie Cook, and I think it's fantastic. He's a great man, and he needs to be honored. But I had this, I have a small YouTube channel. I don't got a lot of followers, but I was like, man, if I go on there, I'm a I have a YouTube channel for Christian men. If I go on there and say something about Charlie Kirk, this was my mindset, this is why I didn't do it. The algorithm's gonna push it out to more people, and the more people can follow the podcast. I didn't want to do that because I had that mindset. Like, yeah, am I gonna go on there and say something because God's telling me to say something or I feel led to say something, or am I gonna just go on there to try to promote me? The idol is myself. Yeah, you know, so I didn't do it. I didn't do it, and I you know, there's still time to do it, but I'm just it's just not what I feel led to do.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

So well, I always say sometimes cold takes are better than hot takes, like let the spirit work, yeah, not our egos, so it's good.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah. So um you've said the vision, a church centered completely on Jesus sounds simple, but it's hard to live out when the world keeps pulling us, pick a keeps pulling us to pick a side. Yeah. Explain that.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

I mean, here's the thing, like I I am a proponent of Christian unity. You might have noticed there's not a lot of that. There's a lot of division, fun fact, in the world, um with Christians. With Christians, let alone anybody. Um and I there are a lot of there are you know, there are billions of Christians in the world um who are going a lot of them are gonna be compelled by Jesus. We we share that, and that's beautiful and good that we love Jesus and are a fan of his way of life, but then the problems ensue when we decide, well, this version of his way of life, or we're gonna add these things that are probably imported from our own cultural culture and biases, you know. If it makes you feel good to add this stuff to Christianity, you might need to pause and step back and say, is that really what you're supposed to add there? Um, that makes it much more complicated. Uh, it makes it hard. And sometimes I use the metaphor when I'm talking about smashing idols and things, is like you literally have boxes cluttered up in a room. There are all these distractions, there are things cluttered that you cannot see Jesus over there, and it is a process. I mean, I I I don't know if you've ever like had a garage sale or decided to do some spring cleaning or something. You know, you look at something, you're like, I might, I haven't used this in three years, but like I might maybe I don't want to sell it, I want to give it away. It's the same thing with our theological break. Uh well, I really like this thing, but then we are just keeping clutter, and it becomes harder to focus on Jesus. Like Jesus is is simple, like um, I mean, there we have four we have four gospels, there's a lot of repetition there in the grand scheme of things. Like, Jesus' message is is actually not too long and complicated and crazy. You there's some recurring themes here. It it's simple, but we make it complicated because we got our pet whatevers that we add in the way and get distracted.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Yeah, I mean, the gospel, we can distill it down to exactly what he was what he told them when they asked him what the greatest commandment was.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, strength, and mind, and the second is like unto it, love thy neighbor as thyself. That sums up the gospel in ever in all of it, but yeah, we make it too complicated. We want to talk about predestination, and you know, there's so many different theologies that that we tend to wrangle over those words sometimes because I I think it's our pride. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Yeah. I mean, hey, I have opinions, and you know what? If we if you and I like look through all our theology, I 100% I know we'd have some disagreements, maybe some big ones, even, you know. But I it's just you can't let that stop you, you can't let that distract you from exactly what you said. Love God, love others. It's great.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah, simple. You said Jesus calls us into a messier, more demanding third way. What does that look like in everyday discipleship?

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Yeah, well, here's the thing. Um, any group that claims like you we are the exclusive path, we are the the right way to do Jesus, to do whatever. Um, I gotta look at them with extreme suspicion. Um, there is a possibility, there is a possibility that they happen to hit a lot of the boxes that they're doing a pretty good job here. Um, but anytime we sell our souls to whatever group, whatever club, whatever political party, whatever, you know, we can we can be associated with those groups, but always got to keep a little bit of a distance because they're never really gonna capture Jesus. Because no group can. It's just not a thing that can be done, is to capture Jesus. Because although we mentioned like the messages is really simple, Jesus is is a complex, God is mysterious, God moves mysterious ways. Like there's gonna be some questions we're gonna have. I got my list in heaven. I don't know about you, I got my list of God. I need some answers on this subject and then this one too. Like, I have those. Um, for sure. But we we have to not sign up, you know, full if full-fledged for whatever group, for whatever party, for whatever association, club, I don't care. Um, gotta take what they say with a grain of salt, check in the scriptures, check in pack with Jesus, and things like that. So I don't always love the the the term third way, um, but it's something that some people use as just a because it's not really the third way. Um, it's not even always the middle. Uh, it's not like that all truth happens to only be found in the middle. Um, but it's something on a different plane. Jesus is always gonna be on a different plane, always gonna surprise us, always gonna throw us for a curveball. Nobody that says, Oh, I actually have it all figured out, like I did when I was 15. They're lying, or they're they're misguided, at least. Let's be a little more charitable. They're they're missing something, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Yeah, so how can men lead spiritually when they no longer feat fit neatly into one camp?

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Oh well, that's what I'm always trying to figure out. Um here's the thing. Uh, you know, we have we have several prophets in scripture. Let me tell you something about prophets. Not popular, not popular most of the time. Didn't like them. Like we even have these stories of kings being like, okay, I need some more prophets here because that guy says, he always tells me the I don't want to hear. Who else who else will tickle my ears here? Um, and I think so. A good analogy here is men as leaders, we have to be prophets, and and that means um it. I mean, these prophets hung out in places of power, they were in places of influence, they didn't run off and and become Amish in the woods or something all the time. Some of them did some weird stuff and some wilderness wandering, indeed. But um, a lot of times they were in places of influence and power, but they didn't let those places influence them, they were the influencers, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Uh, and and to be a prophet means you need to be willing, and this is not easy, especially as somebody like me that kind of wants people to like me and stuff. You have to be willing to say the hard things in love. Um, like we're not being mean for meanness's sake, but we're not called to just say everything that people want us to say. Um, and again, prophets are not pop not popular. Uh, Gideon, our favorite idol smasher here. Um, the next day the town people were quite angry that all their idols were smashed. Nobody likes their idols to be smashed. Um, but that is where we are called. We are called to speak up no matter what, no matter the consequences sometimes. And that's tough. Um, you know, at a different, you know, mostly speaking, in in America, we maybe haven't had really big consequences for speaking up about certain things, but that's not always guaranteed. There's not a guarantee there that everything will be consequence free. Yeah, there are plenty of other parts in the world where, oh boy, there are consequences if you don't tickle the ears of who's never.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, you know, we mentioned earlier Charlie Kirk. He was a man who spoke up and he suffered a consequence, but he's in heaven rejoicing now. But yeah, I totally agree with you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you've said whether producing podcasts or writing books, my goal is simple to help people pursue a deeper, uncompromised life with Jesus. Explain that.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Yeah, you know, um again, back to that word simple. Maybe I overused that word, because there is a sense in which it is simple, and then another sense in which, like, okay, but to unpack that, you quickly realize, well, maybe that's not so easy. But, you know, for a long time I had so many different like parts of my life. Um, in fact, what I didn't explain is when I was a kid, um, I wanted to be the Christian version of insert pretty much whatever job. I was gonna be a biologist, gonna be a lawyer, I was gonna be a politician, uh anything like uh an academic. I was just gonna insert the word Christian in front of it. I I wanted to be everything because I thought I knew everything and then I wanted to be everything. Well, you can't actually hold every single job. That's something I unfortunately learned later in life. I had to I had to pick something. Um but I am still a person who has multiple things that I get up to and do podcasts and books and you know creativity and crazy stuff. I I I have multiple parts of me. Um but what I have found what I have a way that I've kind of regulated all that chaos essentially is to center my identity in Christ and say, whatever I'm up to here, if I'm focused on glorifying God, well you know loving God, loving others, those two commands Jesus gave us, we're doing all right here. Um there isn't anything truly in our lives as Christians, it doesn't just apply to me, it applies to everybody. There's no area that like God doesn't care about or doesn't touch, you know. Um, you're paying your taxes, God's there. You're paying the bill at the restaurant, God's there. You know, you're playing basketball with your kids, God's there. Like all of this is an area of our life that God has some opinions on, has something to say. And so I want us to center all of that on just the uncompromised truth of Jesus. Um, because you strip away the boxes and the idol. Jesus is really amazing, truly amazing. He says some things that uh we don't all, you know, we don't always like at first, and there's something weird about Jesus where it's like, you said that, and it sounds crazy, but then I thought about it and realized that actually literally makes so much more sense. That is a way better way to live society. Um, we see stuff like that all the time. And um, I just want other people to experience that too, you know?

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yeah. So I know you have a Substack, you have a podcast, and you also write you write books, but you write children's books as well.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Yeah, I do. I have a couple Super Jake books. You do your homework, yeah. Um that's my my passion project or something. They're not faith-based, but they are um little middle grade, middle school novels that I would say have an influence of Christian values and things. I'm writing to little boys. You know, we're on a podcast that's primarily for men. Um I'm writing to young boys and saying, hey, listen, don't let society define you. There are some other things that need to be defining and shaping you. So yeah, it is a superhero that shoots ice cream out of his hands, but it's a pretty deep theological work somehow, without having to come to Jesus, say the sinner's prayer at the end kind of thing. There's none of that, but there's definitely those values in there.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Um, have you gotten feedback from any of that?

SPEAKER_02 42:38

I mean, I got it. I I my book has is in the library of a couple Christian schools and things like that. That's where I've heard a lot of the feedback. Um, apparently it's enjoyable. Like, will you know it remains to be seen, kind of the level of impact, even if I ever do get to see that. Um, but that that writing project is it is it also really is a part of me that it's it's I want to tell this story. I don't want to market it well, I want to be a good steward of my resources and my time. But um I I self-published that because and maybe this is a little prideful of me, but I was like, I didn't want anybody else telling me how to make it better, which would you typically be telling me how to sell it better and stuff. And I was like, I have a story to tell. I I don't need to sell bajillion copies. Um, you know, I get enough to buy myself maybe one or two meals a month, then it's great. Uh some months are better than others, you never know.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

So yeah, it's fun. Well, I think you're doing big things. Whether you whether you feel like that's happening or not. I can tell that you if you're not at this very moment, you're gonna end up touching a lot of lives. I love what you're doing. I think you're leaving a great legacy, you know, and you're reaching children. You're reaching people of your age, and you're reaching people of my age. Because I listen to your podcast. I love your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

So there's a question I ask every man that comes on the podcast. It's around David in the cave of Adulum, 1 Samuel 22. It was after he slew Goliath. He ran to the cave because Saul was chasing him, wanted to kill him. While he was in that cave, there were men in the kingdom who were disgruntled, disheartened, discouraged. They came to David in the cave, and they eventually helped David become king. While they were in that cave, David inspired them to go out and get a cup from the will of Bethlehem. So he inspired those men. They ended up becoming David's mighty men. Modern day, you have a group of men in front of you, disgruntled, disheartened, discouraged, looking for direction, leadership. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_02 45:04

I would say that. I mean, it kind of sounds cheesy like a line in a movie, but it's like hope is the best weapon that we have. I think hope is a underutilized um, I'll say resource of Christians. Um because it's weird because we kind of know the end of the story already. Um, we've kind of seen the last page, we've already peaked at the end of the book here. Um, and so it's like we know it's all gonna work out. Um, and so we should have hope and we should live into that. And when there is despair, when there is distraction, when there is alternate paths that somebody's saying, Hey, come down over here, go down this way. We have hope that says, No, the way of God is the way that actually ends in in glory, in honor, in beauty, and so we need to stick to the path because we have hope thanks to knowing the end of the story, thanks to Jesus coming as a human, suffering, um like us, and then ultimately dying on the cross, defeating death. Um, we know the end of the story. We we've we've won, and so we need to live into that truth.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

I love that. So, where can guys connect with you? I know you have a Substack, you have your podcast. Say the name of your podcast again.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Yeah, Christianity Without Compromise. And then my newsletter is called Smashing Idols. Um, so they're kind of they're two Ps in a pod, but technically different brands. But really, all that is found on Substack. That's kind of my favorite place to hang out. It's pretty cool these days. It's just Jake Dobrands.substack.com. My first name. Um, and that's your podcast on Substack. I I do actually host my podcast on Substack and post it there and all that. So it's just a very convenient way when I um publish an episode, it also sends out as an email. So people get it in their their favorite podcast player and they get in their email. Kind of a two for one. Um, so I really enjoy that part of it too. And it's a great community there, actually. It's kind of a weird alternate community that's very different than anywhere social in social media land.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Yeah, I I follow it a little bit. It's just I sometimes get bombarded with stuff.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah. Too much to keep track of. Can't be for sure.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

I enjoyed having you on the podcast. If you ever have a topic you want to discuss, hit me up and we'll we'll set up another interview.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Okay, great. Yeah, I really enjoyed being on here too.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yeah, thank you very much for coming on.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Yeah, of course. Any time.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Okay, God bless you.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

God bless you.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

If there's one thing I hope you carry away from today's conversation, it's this. Idols don't always look like statues. Most of the time they look like control, certainty, efficiency, or even our own desire to be impressive. And the way of Jesus, the real way, is simpler, slower, and far more relational than the versions we build for ourselves. Before you go, let me give you a preview of next week's episode. I sat down with Alex San Filippo, the founder of Podmatch, and he shared a story I promise you won't forget. A story of hitting rock bottom, losing everything, and then walking into a church where in his words he felt like Jesus was hugging him. It will speak directly to any man who feels defeated, overwhelmed, or unsure of his next step. So make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss it. If you got value out of this episode, please share it with another brother who needs it, and join us as we continue forging men who choose the harder, better way of Jesus. Stay strong, stay valiant, keep forging your path, and be blessed.