Strength Looks Nothing Like You Think | Dr. Matt Kutz

Dr. Matt Kutz brings a powerful and practical look at biblical masculinity, contextual intelligence, and what it means for Christian men to lead with clarity, wisdom, and strength. From the unforgettable “Vulcan Death Grip” story to the R4 Model (Recognize, Reorder, Respond, Reflect), Matt shows how understanding the context of a moment can transform the way we respond to our wives, children, coworkers, and the world around us.
If you’ve ever felt confused, discouraged, or unsure how to lead well, this conversation will give you tools you can use immediately. Matt’s insights on identity, discernment, and the Holy Spirit’s role in helping men see clearly are worth replaying more than once.
And don’t miss his powerful answer to the Cave of Adullam question — one of the strongest responses ever given on this podcast.

matthewkutz.com

Want to be a guest on The Valiant Forge Podcast? Send Mark Osborne a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/17432638464878159623a121d

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

A lot of men won't say it out loud, but they feel it every day. I don't know what to do. With their marriage, with their kids, with the pressure they're carrying. Romans twelve two tells us there's a different way, a renewed mind that can actually discern the will of God. Today I'm joined by Dr. Matt Hoos, a professor, an author, a leadership expert, and a man who's walked through cancer with a clarity that most men never find. He's going to teach us contextual intelligence. The men of Ishikar had the skill of knowing what to do because they understood the things. And God downloaded a framework to Dr. Matt Hood that helps men and people of all walks of life learn how to discern what is going on in their life to help them figure out the processes and things that they need to do to move forward. And somewhere in this interview, you're going to hear a Vulcan death group story that perfectly shows what happens when a man reacts instead of responds. So, if you're tired of guessing your way through life, stay with us. This one's going to help you step into the kind of strength that builds mighty men. And I'll tell you at the end how to join a brotherhood that does exactly that.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Welcome to the Valiant Forge Podcast, where we help men overcome life's battles, show up better in the world, and become a valiant warrior for God. This is a place where we share practical strategies that will equip you on life's journey to help you become the man God has called you to be. Are you ready to overcome your doubt and fulfill your purpose just like Gideon? If so, let's go.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Thank you very much, Mark. Appreciate it. Happy to have you on. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yeah, it's been it's a it's been a journey for me too. So every time I talk about it, I pinch myself as well. So it's an exciting topic.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Yeah. But before we get into that, uh tell me about your your journey, your your faith journey, what brought you to where you are today?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah, so I'm a pastor's kid. So I start with the traditional, you know, pastor's kid vibe, except I never really was the stereotypical pastor's kid. I've always liked it, you know, kind of a thing. So I grew up in the church. I was baptized at 10 years old, um, always engaged in the church. Church was was always a big part of my life. And and I think I think what's important about that is the men who I grew up around, I respected. You know, they weren't weren't these stuffy old, you know, you think of these idea, you think of this quintessential, you know, dorky church guy, but not so much. I mean, the the guys that I grew up with, you know, we would go whitewater rafting and they were outdoorsmen and they liked boxing and in different the sporting events and all these kinds of things. So I grew up, you know, in in that environment and just always thought uh everything was cool. They lived by what they, you know, what they said there. I never found any, you know, the hypocrisy or anything like that. So grew up in that environment, always felt safe and secure. And then when I, you know, became of age and got older and moved away to college and all that, I might just found my faith uh deepening. I just immediately found, you know, some I mean, it's I know now that it was the Lord. Back then, I don't know that I would have said that so much, but the Lord was just always there. Um, my friends were believers, and I just I've been very, very blessed and fortunate, you know, not to get caught up in that wrong crowd, so to speak. I always made sure my friends, at least something my parents were adamant about, that you know, you choose good friends, and and I was blessed to be able to do that. So through all of that, I mean that's kind of um maybe not an exciting story, but a boring story, but I've heard it said by many people. I'd I'd rather have a boring story because it's it's a good testimony as well. But you know, all the things that you go through and you come back and and all those kinds of things. And I mean, I'm not saying I was perfect because I certainly wasn't and still am not, but um, but I'm intentional and I've always been intentional about my faith and and you know, engaged in the church for me, uh, and I know it's different for other other guys and stuff like that, but for me, a huge part of this faith walk requires uh that you be not just attend church, but be engaged as a contributing member of a local church. And so that was something even when I was married, young married, you know, we've been married 32 years now, and you know, even as a young married couple, my wife and I just I remember we made a commitment to each other. You know, we'll always well we won't just be pew sitters, you know, whatever uh faith community we find ourselves in, you know, as long as they preach Jesus and believe the infallibility of of the scriptures, then you know, we're gonna engage and we're gonna be active participating members, and that has been a huge part of our uh formation.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

That's that's very cool. So I know you you struggled with uh ca cancer at one point in your life. Can you tell how being so strong in your faith helped you through that?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

I can't imagine getting through it without faith. I mean, it was, I mean, I I I've met a lot of guys um, you know, because of that experience. And and it's a battle that I'm still battling, to be quite honest with you. But um, and and the men that come to me and and ask about, you know, I don't know how are you handling this so well, kind of a thing. And and A, I always kind of chuckle, I don't know that I am, but uh, but I do know this. Um, I'm gonna be okay no matter what happens, and either way, and and a lot of men find um hope and in the example that I give, and and I mean this with all of my heart, and and you know, it can only be grace where I can even say this, but I'm always reminded of the story in the Old Testament of the three Hebrew children, you know, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abindigo. And we all look at that and think of that as a Sunday school story kind of a thing, but it's amazing how often those Sunday school stories come back as adults when life really gets difficult and how much they they undergird your faith. And for me, I was just, you know, meditating on that, on that story and rereading it. And and I remember, you know, when they were talking to the king, uh, they told the king, they said, Listen, he's about to throw them in the fiery furnace. And he's they said to him, They said, Listen, our God is able to save us. We know that we have no doubt, you know, and and they go through the whole thing, but there's absolute confidence that our God is able to save us and he will save us. And then there's a pause, and then they say, But even if he doesn't, we still will trust him and he's still our God, you know, and and that's kind of the posture I had to adopt. I know God can deliver me, I know God can heal me. I believe that he will, but even if he doesn't, that doesn't change the fact that he is still my God and my king, and and I think that's that's uh important. And that attitude has been what's helped me through. I know he's going to heal me, I know he's gonna deliver me, but even if he doesn't, it doesn't change what I believe or what I think.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

So amen. So going going through that, what did you learn about strength, weakness, or surrender that you wish more men would understand?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

You know, uh, that's a that's a great question. Yeah. The answer, you know, the answer could be multiple multiple things there, but you know, what I learned about strength is that I don't have any. You know, and and I don't mean that that, okay, I, you know, scripture obviously know in our weakness he is made strong. You know, we know that he must increase. John said, he must increase, I must decrease. Uh Zechariah talks about, you know, it's not by might, by power, um, but by the spirit, you know, by the spirit of the Lord. And uh, and all of those things are true. And that's what you find out in journeys like this, because there have been days and are days when I'm like, honey, I can't do this. This is this is too much. This is have this side effect, that side effect, this news, you know, this is this is crushing. And uh, and that's when you have to stand and say, you know, it's it's it's not by might and it's not by power. You know, you could put anything you want in there. Let's not by medicine, it's not by willpower, it's not by therapy, and all that stuff, but it's by my spirit. And strength, I have found out, is the same as surrender. And and you have to lean into your strength by leaning into your surrender. And in your surrender is where your strength is. And um, you know, I hate to say this way, but you could argue with me about that if you want to, but you'd be wrong. You know, it's just the it's just the way it is, and that's really what I learned because, you know, it's funny, I would have I would have answered that, or at least I hope I would have answered that, you know, 10 years ago when I thought and everything was perfect, you know, and and the little difficulties we had financially or with our kids at the time, or whatever, you know, what we thought was a giant then, so to speak. You know, I my wife and I uh now divide our life stories between, you know, pre-cancer, post-cancer kinds of things. But we remember the story um in Samuel 17 where where David is facing Goliath. Of course, everybody knows another Sunday school story that people often refer to. What's interesting about that is as David was facing Goliath, his giant, he said, the reason, you know, one of the reasons he cited is because I'm gonna, I'm gonna take your head and feel your feel feed your carcass to the to the birds of the airs and to the wild animals here. And and David said the reason why he knew he was gonna do that was because of the lions and the bears. He goes, I've defeated the lion, I've defeated the bear, and just like them, you know. And my wife and I talk all the time. We actually created a list after we found out our diagnosis of all these other things in our lives that we thought were these big moments of testing, you know, where it turns out they were just lions and bears, and the real giant was still ahead of us, and now we're facing a real giant and all those other things that we thought were giants back then because we didn't nothing to compare them to. We realized we're just lions and bears. And um, so we did, and I would encourage your listeners to, if you're facing something uh that you think is beyond you, then you need to sit down and really consider um your lions and your bears. Go back and count every time in your past where you thought it was over, where you thought this could be it. You thought, oh, there was no way out of this, Lord can't deliver me from this. And we did. We went back all the time. We thought about, remember that time when we couldn't pay our mortgage, you know, when we were newlyweds or whatever, and I lost my job and you couldn't find work. And you know, we thought we were done. And then years later, remember when the baby was sick and we didn't know what to do. And remember the time when we tried to sell our house and we couldn't sell our house, and we needed a car and couldn't get, you know, all those things, you know. It's like those were all lions and bears. And because of all those moments, we really uh could stand in this moment and also say, just like all those other times, you're gonna fall, just like everything else. So I think you know, we called our lion and our bear list. It's about it's a it's a legal pad, uh a handwritten legal pad, and currently it's a bullet point list, and currently about three pages deep into a bullet point list on a yellow legal pad of of all the times that uh the lions and bears that we faced and and overcome by God's grace.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

So that's awesome. I I love that idea. Like I have some journals where I've gone through some trials and had the same thing. I just I like the idea of doing it, and especially doing it with your wife. Yeah, sitting down together. Let's talk about the trials we've gone through. So when we face another one, we just this weekend had something come up that it's like, okay, well, we've been through this before. Right. You know, it's it's a it's a church situation I'm not gonna get into, but we've been through a few, we've been going to church together for over 40 years, and we've seen a lot of changes and a lot of trials come up, and just like you said, we just can always go back to that.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Yeah. So so what brought you to being an author?

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Yeah, so you know, well, yeah, great question. Something, one, I mean, to be honest with you, I've all just always wanted to. And again, this goes back to again, you know, my childhood and things like that, being raised by a pastor who who I respected, uh, and who also I looked up to as a leader, you know, and watching what he did. You know, I don't know that I would say my dad was an avid reader, but he re he all he would recommend you need to read this book, you need to read that book. And and so I did. And those kinds of things shaped me early on. And I remember, I remember thinking when I was, I don't know, 14, 15, somewhere in there, 16 maybe, around around that age, thinking, um, I want to be someone someday whose dad says to their son, you need to read this book. So I kind of carried that in my heart for years. And um, and I tried to write stuff when I was younger, but it just fell because I really didn't have anything to say. I was just writing for the sake of writing. And and for me, it was a very interesting process of I was actually teaching um an adult Sunday school class on the um on the tribe of Issachar. And we were talking about um, you know, change, and we were going over the story in Chronicles where Dave this uh God was tearing the kingdom away from Saul, about to give it to David, and and it was going on in Hebron, and so I'm studying the significance, the symbolism of all that stuff, and learning all kinds of things. And so I'm teaching this to this class. It was about change and leadership, was the theme of this Sunday school class. And and you read through there in 1 Chronicles 12, you go all through all the way down to verse 32, and it goes through each of the tribes and what they brought to David at Hebron to to help the transition from one kingdom to another kingdom, and and all the metaphor and and that that could mean, you know, the whole transition thing. And it said that the tribe of Issachar had they brought 200,000 of their right, their their brethren, and they understood the times and knew what Israel ought to do. And one of the students in the class just just kind of, hey, what what so what does it look like to know the times and and know what to do, kind of a thing? And and um, we hadn't really talked about it, and it was just one of these organic conversations that happen in an adult Sunday school class that you always kind of hope will happen, you know, kind of a thing. And um, and so I said, Well, I don't know, it's it's kind of this um, I would call it a a contextual intelligence kind of a thing. And and uh, and that just you know, they they had they understood the context and they uh uh you know responded intelligently or correctly in the context that they were in. They discerned the times and knew what to do. And we broke it down to this, I always call it a two-step process. Step one, accurately discern the times, the context, and two, then respond intelligently to that uh discerning diagnosis, you know, whatever that whatever you decided. And and it's I found that the easy part was discerning the times. It's easy to look around you and and say, okay, this is bad, or this is good, you know, or whatever, or and and we we we can do that kind of relatively easy, but the hard part then is the second step in that, okay, this is bad. Okay, well, what do you do now that you recognize you're in this situation, or this is a good place, a healthy place, a safe place, an unsafe place, you know, whatever, whatever you discern about the context that you're in, how do you respond appropriately? And so we were talking about that, and those were kind of examples I used, and and I said it's kind of like a I would say, I guess, a contextual intelligence, and and that just boom, I mean, my spirit and my heart just embraced that thought. Even the students in the room are like, oh, okay, I I can see that, I can visualize that. Now, put that on the shelf for a minute because at the exact same time that I'm teaching this adult Sunday school class, I'm also finishing up the final touches on my uh PhD dissertation. And I happen to be my dissertation was about the leadership behaviors that people demonstrate throughout the course of their life, especially when change or transition comes to them. They get a promotion, they get a demotion, they move from one town to a new town, you know, they go from being just mom and dad to having now uh twins or whatever, and and the dramatic changes happening around them. Um, what leadership behaviors do they use through all of the different changes and transitions of life? Are there are there things that stick with them? And so that's what I was studying. And I had a list of several things from the research that I conducted that people did, and I was having a very, very, very difficult time trying to categorize all the different behaviors that people did. And and when I said it then in the Sunday school class, I immediately knew this is what I was going to call the behaviors that I had such a hard time identifying as kind of a core group. And so that's what I did. I went back, I talked to my dissertation chair, and I said, We have all this beh behaviors that people do. Uh, we knew there was something meaningful about behaviors, but we didn't know what to call them as a collective group. So I said, you know what? I'm gonna call them contextual intelligence. And even she was like, Okay, I like it. Yeah, that sounds good. Let's let's move forward with that. So I did. So I called this group of behaviors, contextual intelligence, wrote my dissertation, finished it up, put it away, didn't think about it. Again, graduated, got my degree, and and I was already a professor, but that got me a promotion to uh associate professor, and I just went on with my job. It's about uh year or two after that. I was um interviewing, or anyways, I'll skip all that. Year or two after that, I'm in a new position now, a new faculty role. And my dean is like, uh, Matt, you have to start publishing some research here, um, or you're not gonna get promoted. You're not, you're not gonna be able to stay here at the university, you know, unless you start publishing some research. So I'm like, okay, I I I've got some, and you know, I was just doing my job and teaching and and working on some other side projects with some other faculty, but not really doing anything that was my own line of research. And I got this out, I got my dissertation out, and I said, you know what, there's a lot of things here. I wrote an article on contextual intelligence based on these 12 behaviors, sent it into a journal, and went back to life, you know, and started doing other research on sports medicine stuff, which is where my area of expertise is in. I teach in athletic training. And um, so I was doing that and let that paper out there. It got accepted for publication, was published, great. I'm working away, doing other things. Two years later, I'm at a third faculty job now, back home in Ohio, which is where home is for me. And I'm sitting there now. I published, you know, a ton, and but mostly in the exercise physiology space, which is, you know, the healthcare sports medicine space. And but I had this one article on this contextual intelligence, right? So I'm sitting in my office, my phone rings out of the blue, and uh it's uh it's a uh executive director of a uh global business service division within this huge multinational Fortune 50 company. And um, and I don't know what I'm doing at all. You know, I answer the phone, this guy's like, this is who I am. I was like, okay, and and uh I found out later his division alone um generated$16 billion in revenue for the greater for the bigger company. So he's just his little his little corner division with six people and all generated 16 billion dollars of revenue. So, anyways, he he read my article. Long story short, he read my article and he heard about it. It at the Stanford University Man of the Year Gala event that their CEO was winning, and it was somebody mentioned it, and he literally wrote it on his napkin. Uh, Googled it when he got back to his hotel room, and my article was at the top of the list. So he read it and he said, This is this is the best thing I've ever read about leadership. Again, try to make a long story short. Um, come come around to it. He tracks me down. He goes, Listen, I read your article, my team read your article. This idea contextual intelligence idea is something that we've never heard of, never considered before. But these behaviors, there's 12 behaviors that you're classifying as this type of contextual intelligence. We think this is this is just neat stuff. Would you please come come to our uh corporate headquarters and just you know give us a couple hours of your time so we can talk about it? We've never heard this, pick your brain, we can ask you questions, maybe we can both learn something from this and you know, might help us, might help you, blah, blah, blah. So I agreed to do that. And so I went down there and it turned out to be one of these things that only God, you know, truly, truly only God. And um, and so we did, and I did, and and at the end of that meeting, they were mesmerized by this concept of contextual intelligence. I even explained to them, you know, it came from me from what I know as a as a you know, a story in the Bible about this certain tribe in Israel, had this skill set. This is just my contemporary spin idea on that skill set, supported by the research and the evidence that shows, you know, this is what these behaviors are. You know, if you do these 12 things and you actually are discerning the times and knowing what to do if you practice these 12 things. And so we've gone through all that. They loved it, they had no trouble with it. They well, I found this out too huge, which the world doesn't care where a good idea comes from if it generates revenue for them. They had no trouble whatsoever with it being based in a Bible story, it did not lack, it did not undermine its credibility in their mind one bit. I was actually kind of nervous about saying this. I was like, I don't know, these people might think I'm crazy if I start talking about Bible stories. You know, they didn't care at all. Um so, anyway, that's just a little side note. Um, but that said, I developed a relationship with this company. They hired me to come back and do some training and coaching with some of their team members and all that. And and after my second meeting with them, the the gentleman who reached out to me initially was like, Do you have a book on this? Well, you need to write a book on this. And and no, I don't. Well, you need to, kind of a thing, you know. And and he said, um, he actually said to me, he's very kind. He actually said to me after the first meeting, he's walking me out to my car, and he says, Um, you have no idea what you're doing, do you? And I and I and I knew what he meant because I didn't, and I said, No, sir, I don't, you know, that was a crucial, you know, decision to make because most men are gonna be like, oh no, no, I know what I'm doing, and and this is I've got a plan or whatever. And I didn't. I just was gonna just this is what I gave you everything I got, you know, which I think they appreciate in line because I came down there thinking this was just a one-off. Hey, they liked an idea that I wrote about in my research paper, you know, six years ago or whatever. And okay, I can talk about my research to anybody, you know, and and so, but he says to me, he goes, You have no idea what you're doing, do you? And I said, No, sir. He goes, Listen, your this idea um uh can change your life. He goes, you can either benefit from it or get screwed. And that's exactly what he said to me. And by get screwed, he meant, um, we're moving forward with this idea. You can either benefit from it as your intellectual property, or no one's gonna ever hear your name or what you did, and it's gonna be uh, you know, XYZ's idea and model, because we're gonna move forward with it as a thing. He goes, I'm gonna give you two weeks. Two weeks. At the end of two weeks, we're moving forward with it. If if uh I'll call you back in two weeks, and if you've got, you know, he said, go back, get an attorney, file the intellectual property, protection, copyrights, all those kinds of things, and then, you know, then it's yours, and then we have to pay you for it. Otherwise, we're moving forward with it. And uh, I hope you believe me. You can believe me or don't believe me, kind of thing. So we I came home, told my wife about it, and we call an attorney the next day. A friend of mine happened to be an attorney, she helped me out, so we got our ducks in a row, and then he called me two weeks later, and I said, Yep, I got the the intellectual property. Here's the whatever copyright notice and numbers, and it's it's mine, so you can't use it, you know, without my permission. He's like, Good, that's what we wanted. Um, so let's move forward. So that's when they brought me back. We did some coaching and training, and then he says, Hey, you need to write a book on this, and um, and also an assessment, a profile assessment that measures how frequently people uh employ these 12 behaviors, and then we can help determine, you know, companies and individuals' success based on how frequently they do these 12, basically how much like the tribe of Issacar they are, you know, kind of a thing. And so I developed the instrument for that. I wrote the book on that. It's a whole nother story in and of itself. I wrote it literally in like four days. Um, I pulled different articles, parts of my dissertation, basically hodgepodge together a pathetic, pitiful, tiny little book of like 60 pages, you know, one of these little just homemade things. Uh, self-published it myself, um, you know, with the with the just the the Kinkos, you know, coil binding, you know, um Ibiko printer thing that that I'd use in the we use in the church to make, you know, Sunday school lessons and workbooks for people at the church, you know. That's what I did. And um they bought like 600 of them right off the bat, kind of a thing. And and from there it gradually grew and it was X in a long story, but um, it ended up winning Leadership Book of the Year um you know for innovation and cutting edge perspective in 2013. And then uh so from there, you know, that's kind of what happened. So then a publisher picked it up, and now I've written eight books now since then. And some of those textbooks, I got into the textbook space, so I've written a few textbooks on management and leadership, really all revolving around kind of the the sports medicine healthcare kind of theme. Yeah, so that's how I got into writing, and and it just kind of was forced upon me, so to speak. I see.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Are are you still in sports medicine today? Oh, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

I teach now I teach in the Doctor of Athletic Training program at Florida International University, and uh and I it was great as I teach exclusively doctoral pro uh doctoral students, which is a a whole nother thing, which is a ton of fun. And uh, but the program I teach in is an athletic training program, but the content I teach is leadership, critical thinking, decision making, kind of advanced practice skills uh for clinical decision makers. So I get to teach leadership-related content, but it's within the um domain of of sports medicine. Fortunately for me, leadership um is leadership and it translates well into many other. I use a lot of it in my church uh training and development that I serve as an elder in the church that I attend on the board of elders. I do a lot of the um training and equipping of of the of the adults and leadership and things like that. So it translates everywhere, and I've been able to use it in the corporate setting as well.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

That's very cool. So can you give me a few since this is a a podcast for Christian men, how your contextual intelligence would apply for a Christian man that's struggling in let's say he wants to lead his family better, and he's struggling in that area. How could that contextual intelligence apply to them?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Yeah, so two things. One, I I like to describe it or think of it as discernment, you know, and I believe the scriptures tell us, you know, we have discernment is available to us. In fact, Paul tells Timothy, you know, if you ask for wisdom, God will be faithful to give that wisdom. So I think first and foremost, it starts with asking for wisdom and not assuming you already know. I think a lot of the times that we get in trouble as men, and I've raised two boys, adults now, and have grandchildren, and they're married and they're living their dream and doing their life, and I'm so proud of them. But um, it wasn't always easy. And I think these times growing up, the tension between your spouse, the tension you have with your kids, we tend to approach it as men with, oh, I know the answer, I know what to do. And the the reality is we're all learning as we go, you know, and and we've got to be honest about our uh lack of discernment and lack of wisdom in certain areas. So uh instead of making excuses for that, which I think a lot of men do, and I don't believe they do it because they're full of pride or arrogance, I believe they do it just because it's it's an innocent type of pride. If I I don't know if there's such a thing, but an innocent type of pride and arrogance. They don't even know they're really doing it. But I think we need to start with knowing that there's a better way, you know. And I go back to tons of scriptures, his thoughts are not our thoughts, his ways are not um our ways, he sees what we don't see, things like that. We've got to acknowledge that. So that's the first place it starts. The first place contextual intelligence starts is in recognizing your need for contextual intelligence. You know, I need this discernment, I need this wisdom. But then once that happens, life still goes on, you know. So I still need to interact, I still need to intervene, I still need to help how I can. And so I teach certain things. One of the things that I teach is called the the R4 model. And this is just a way to recognize the environment that you're in and respond appropriately to that environment. The four Rs is a cyclical process that stands for recognize, um, respond, reorder, respond, and reflect. And so recognize is step one. Um, what do you need to recognize? Well, you need to recognize one, what I just said. There's there's information here or details here that you are not yet privy to. So you have to recognize that. There are things that I don't know about this situation, and uh, and the things that I think I know about the situation is basically just assumptions that I'm making. So you've got a question, so you recognize that. The second thing you recognize is you are recognizing the the what I call the subtle or nuanced shifts in the environment. And I think of uh my teenage boys, when my boys were teenagers, you know, I would we would have an it well called an altercation. We we would have an altercation over some particular issue, and I would respond a certain way, and then let's say three weeks later, we would respond again over the same altercation. Uh, and we have an altercation over the same thing. And what I begin to realize, or how this would apply there, is you've got to recognize that the second altercation is not the same as the first altercation. We're only looking at very superficial cues. We're actually completely bombarded and subject to what psychologists call confirmation bias. We're looking for things to validate what we already think we know. And that prevents us from seeing what's actually happening. So recognition requires, okay, recognizing I don't see everything, and then it's then starting to look for more than just what's obvious or more than what you've seen before. So I refer to that as recognizing the subtle or nuanced shifts of in why is this situation different than the last one? What attitude is there, is there something else that's contributing that I wasn't aware of before, or that is there now that wasn't there before, etc. So you're looking for these subtle or nuanced shifts. Once you recognize those, then we have to immediately reorder uh the metrics of success for that particular situation. So an example would be um the metric of success. Let's say I was just keep with the same example, I suppose, of you're dealing with your teenage uh son or daughter, and and the metric of success is um, you know, let's just stop screaming and yelling and exit the room peacefully and calm without upsetting your mother. You know, that's the that's the metric of success. And then during the altercation or or the process, and it could be, you know, a long period of time, it doesn't have to be in an instant, you find out or you recognize something that you didn't before. Oh, I didn't read last time um there wasn't uh a breakup involved, you know. But this time uh the behavior uh showing itself because uh the breakup, you know, a bad breakup with your boyfriend or girlfriend or something like that, or or you failed an exam, or if they're an athlete, maybe it's a Saturday morning and and they just lost the the the rival game, football game Friday night or whatever, and your son or you know was on the team. And and but there's there's always something different. You need to recognize that. And what's fascinating is when you recognize that difference, that difference means the metric of success has changed. So let's just go with the um this argument this time. You're you're having this altercation, you think it's it's the same as last time, but now you recognize in the middle of it that oh, they're not they're not reacting to me or mom or whatever, they're reacting because of their hearts broken because of this breakup. Right. Okay. So all of a sudden, because of that reality, the metrics of success have to change. They they have to. I mean, the the rules of human physics, the the physics of human relationships says that when when the situation when you recognize something different in a situation, the outcome is always affected. And it's called the Hawthorne effect. It's actually a real scientific uh effect. When somebody knows they're being observed, they never behave in the way that they normally would. So just a true phenomenon. This is what's happening. You've now recognized something you didn't before, and now the outcome has to change, it has to be different. And so a contextually intelligent person recognizes oh, this isn't about the the offense, the bad attitude, the disobedience, the the chippiness, you know, whatever it was. It's not about this, it was about the breakup, isn't it? So now the metric of success has changed. Instead of let's just end peacefully and not upset your mother, the successful outcome has changed. The metric of success has changed. Now it's like my son is hurting. Yes, we're gonna deal with the the behavior that that you know that was problematic, but we're also need to know, he needs to know he's still lovable, he needs to know that he's not a loser, you know, whatever it might be. So that enters into the metric of success where maybe it wasn't a factor last time. So you recognize, then you reorder those metrics of success, and then you have to respond. So now that I know that, I'm responsible to adjust my behavior accordingly. It would go something like this wait a second, son, hold on. I know you're upset, I'm upset, we're gonna deal with this. Could this possibly have anything to do with, you know, Darlene dumping you last weekend, you know, or something like that. And then we go through this conversation and we recognize something, and now I have to respond. And then we change our tactic. That's what respond means. It's like, wait a second, son, you need to know. I know that we're having this issue, but listen, I love you. You're gonna be fine. We've all had breakups before, we've all had broken hearts before, blah, blah, blah. And you're not a loser or whatever it is, you respond appropriately. And we're gonna deal with this thing, but we're gonna deal with it later because now this new thing showed itself. And then the fourth step is reflect. Reflect on okay, did it work? Um, how well were you at recognizing? How long did it take? Were you blinded by rage for too long before you recognize it? How could you recognize more quickly sooner next time? And so recognize, reorder, respond, and reflect. And that's how um I recommend we approach, quite frankly, almost all the situations in life where we find ourselves in. And that also works with our bosses and our employers when things are going wrong in the boardroom or in the the conference room, whatever it might be, recognize, reorder, respond, and reflect, um, I think can lead to some significant um insight and some appropriate responding. Again, I think we as Christian men have an advantage in this because we have the added benefit of the Holy Spirit's eyes. Whereas, you know, someone who doesn't hold to you know a biblical worldview uh could also benefit from it, and they have, but it's harder for them because they don't have that added benefit of the Holy Spirit. And I think as Christian men, that's why I think, especially for Christian men, and women too, by the way, but you know, the idea, the first step in that contextual intelligence is recognizing we need help seeing more clearly and more accurately. And so when we make that prayer, we make that admission, I think the Holy Spirit, just like scripture says, will be faithful to supply what we need in that moment. So you've got to believe that first and foremost. And then when we do, I think it it's easier for us because of that reality.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I I was sitting here kind of mentally writing them down, and I'm gonna go back and listen to this because I could use that for a lot of things. Yeah, me too. Yeah, as you were saying, I was like, wow, this applies in so many different areas. Yeah. I mean, you know, we we were using the example of uh children, but obviously sometimes there are things going on with our wife, and we can be having an altercation with our wife. And if we don't look at the full context, and I I love that.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 41:32

I I heard you tell yeah, I heard you tell a story about a Vulcan death trip. Yeah, could you could you tell that story?

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Absolutely, it's it's a fun story. So um well, what is fun now looking back on that? But so um what we're talking about there is is I was I was a kid. I honestly don't remember, I was 10, 11, 12, somewhere in that age. Um, probably closer to 12-ish, I would imagine. But uh I had a standing routine where I uh came home from work, uh work, sorry, came home from school, and uh I would drop my book bag right by the front door, you know, and then uh walk through the living room, into the kitchen, grab a snack, and eat that snack on the way out the back door of the kitchen into the backyard and to the alley. We had an alley where we grew up in in the city there, and and met all the neighborhood boys after school, and we would play baseball, football, but dodgeball, you know, whatever we were playing that day. And um, and so that was a pretty much a standing routine. And this particular day, I I would come home, drop my bag, was headed to the back, and my mom was waiting there at the door to greet me. And and um, well, not greet me, but to tell me that I couldn't play ball today. I couldn't go outside and play today because I I didn't do my morning chores before school. And both my myself, my brother, my two sisters, so there's four of us, we all had a list of chores we need to we needed to do every day before school. And it wasn't a long list, it was, you know, fold the towels, um, you know, put the dishes away, you know, little things. It didn't take more than five or ten minutes to do. But uh, I had neglected to do my chores before that. So I wasn't allowed to go play until I had finished my chores that I was supposed to do, and then an additional list of three or four disciplinary chores that weren't as as it convenient to do, like vacuum the floor, wash the dishes, instead of just put them away, you know, all that stuff. So I was gonna miss my opportunity that afternoon to to play with the boys. And and so uh, so I disrespected my mother. I I I I'd never had, I'd never, I mean, it wasn't like like uh what you see on TV, I don't think. I just got like, whatever, mom, come on, you're killing me, you know, kind of a thing. And and and uh the whatever mom um just irked my dad to no end. Now, this is funny because. Because almost every day of my life when I came home from school, my dad was still at work. You know, he wasn't home yet. And so, but for whatever reason, he was home early that day and he was in the kitchen around the corner and heard the whole interaction. And when I said, Whatever, mom, come on, you know, that's stupid. Um, or whatever it is that I said, he came running around the corner. Um, I don't know, the man's never moved that fast in his life. I mean, come running around the corner as fast as he could and uh applied the Vulcan death grip. Now, why this isn't why this is funny is because my dad um was a huge Star Trek fan. And he had the this was back in the VHS collection days, you know, but he had the VHS Star Trek collection, you know, uh the original 70, whatever the 70s was in the 70s, you know, Mr. Spock and James T. Kirk and the whole thing. Big Star Trek fan. We watched him all the time. In fact, I get nostalgic today watching him on like the old rerun TV shows. But uh, we watched all of them and he was a big fan, and it was a family thing where uh we would try to practice the Vulcan death grip. We just thought that was cool, you know. I was like, can I can I, you know, sleeper hole with the with the brachioplexus thing there? And so we it was a game. So we did it to him, he did it to us. We the siblings did it to each other, and and so he wasn't it wasn't an act of rage or anything like that. He came around the corner, he just applied the Vulcan death grip and he just nailed it the first time, you know, got with that that nerve right there in your neck, right there. He got it, and you know, my arms twitch in my neck, okay, dad, good one, good one, you know. But he walks me over, he's got me in the Vulcan death grip, so I'm not I'm not squirming too bad. Uh, he walks me over to the wall. He's calm, he's cool, he's collected, and uh, and he's got me there. I'm kind of pinned up against the wall. He gets down, nose, we're nose to nose. We're literally our nose is like two or three inches apart, we're nose to nose, and he looks at me and he says to me, Don't you ever talk to my wife like that again? And so I'm sitting there, or I'm standing there, and I Mark, I'm not kidding. Um, I I remember thinking, Who's your wife? You know, this kind of thing. I I never, never, never, never occurred to me in a million years that my mom and his wife were the same person. I mean, obviously I knew that, but I didn't never connect it. She was mom, right? She was only mom, always mom. I never knew her any other way than other than as mom. And here he he blows my mind by by talk by saying that this person is not just who I think she is. She's more than who I think she is. And and she has meaning in other people's lives beyond the meaning that she has in my life. And that, I mean, I remember my mind being like, wait a second, he's just I I could always talk to my mom that way. It's she's my mom. I talk to her that way all the time when you're not here, you know, kind of a thing. And uh, and he changed the rules on me because I realized for the first time she's my wife. And you can't, you may think you could talk to your mom that way, but you cannot talk to my wife that way. And bringing those ideas together kind of just blew my mind. And now, my dad being a funny guy, um, the whole statement he said was, Don't you ever talk to my wife like that again. If you do, we will kill you, and no one will know you're gone because we can make another one that looks just like you. So I that part I didn't get right away. It was years later, and then I kind of kind of that, oh, I'm like funny, dad, ha ha, kind of a thing. But uh so he said that, he let go, and he says, now go do your chores, you know, and stop the blip kind of a thing. And so so I did, and and that's what that's what happened. But I remember it was later on as I was rehearsing that memory, I remember thinking during my other chores and and all those kind of things when I was doing all my discipline extra chores now, that you know, if the situation happened the exact same way, and it was uh my grandpa who was in the house instead of my dad, he would have said, Don't talk to my daughter that way. If it was my uncle who was home, and and he would have said, Don't talk to my sister that way, you know, all of a sudden, this woman who I only ever related to what we call in in sign leadership terms, scientific leadership terms is a dyad, dyactic model, a one-way, you know, um, between two people back and forth, turned out to be this multifaceted person. She wasn't just mom, she was daughter, she was sister, she was wife, she was friend, you know, and all of a sudden, this all these things that we were just talking about. Listen, there's something that when you recognize a shift, what you're recognizing is one of these other identities are coming in that that you're not aware of. And so, back to our example with you know, your teenage son, for example, it's like you just think he's son and needs to respond, and this is what you're training him to do to be a man, and all these kind of things, but then you recognize, oh, he's also boyfriend. And I didn't realize boyfriend was as big a part of his identity as I should have at this age, you know, for example. And now the boyfriend identity is what's speaking to me here, not the brat kid that I've been raising for 14 years identity or 18 years identity or whatever. So that's what you're recognizing. And that's when I started having this epiphany. Of course, I was young, so I didn't realize it then. But um, as I grew, I remember thinking how cool that was, believe it or not. I want to, I mean, I remember when I got older, I want to wait till I can say that to my kids, you know. But but what was interesting about that is it actually began to shape and frame even who I would date later on in life and who I would consider. Because I remember thinking, whatever it is, my my wife will always be my wife before she's my children's mother. And and when my wife and I were dating and and got serious, I mean, we didn't there wasn't a conversation for the first date, but you know, when we started getting very serious and talking about marriage and all that kind of thing, I remember having this conversation with her. It's like, listen, you know, this was important to me. This is my mom and dad. I thought always had a model marriage, and I appreciated their marriage. I wanted a marriage like theirs. And this is what I know about my parents' marriage. As little as I did, I said, I always know that my dad and mom were husband and wife before they were mother and father. And I know that because my dad would say other things later on when we were older, like, um, listen, boy, me and your mom, we were a thing before you were a thing. And we're gonna be a thing when you're gone, moved out of this house. So let's be very clear here. You are just a passing phase in our life. You know, we love you and we will clothe you and shelter you and make sure you're educated and you know, all the stuff that we need to do and raise you in the fear and admonition of the Lord, which they did and all those things. But it was very clear to me from a teenager on that they were gonna do their job and then they were gonna get back to them, you know, and and them was always the thing. And uh, so I thought that was neat. And um, and so I my wife and I have have committed to try to do and be the same. But so that's kind of the Vulcan death story, and and the the the reason that's important is because for me, that was the very beginnings of of this idea of contextual intelligence, of and how this would apply to us today as men, especially as Christian men, I think we have a greater burden and responsibility to carry this load, is to recognize and understand that the people in your life, including your children and your spouse, your your coworkers, your neighbors, they they have more they have a greater depth of identity than what only you interact with them as. We are we're both too volatile temperaments in the house, two trumpers and I. So, so you know, we we argue like everybody else, maybe a little bit more loudly than some people, but we have a great marriage and we'll both tell you that without any question. And I think what's really helped is that idea of the Vulcan death grip model there's I recognize that my wife is also more than just my wife. We've made a commitment to each other that you will be number one, and so my role as wife will be what I spend my most of my time developing, and likewise, my role as husband is what I will spend most of my time and energy and effort developing. But that doesn't mean I'm not gonna develop my skills for my employer, my job, the things that the Lord wants me to do, and a father and all those other things, same with her. By recognizing those things, we give each other a lot more grace as well.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, I I love that story.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

That's a good story, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

Yes, but I also love the the frame behind it because you know you were saying how once we understand that about people, so even your co-workers, they're not just your co-workers. When you're going into the marketplace as a Christian man and you're trying to minister to people, yes, and you understand that that's more than just a guy who's fulfilling a role at your job, right? That that's a human being, it goes back to one of your R's is the responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

You are now responsible for their soul to be the light and the witness of Jesus Christ, especially as a Christian man, we have that responsibility. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

It's it's you know, it's it's I believe that's part of what the Holy Spirit does for us because it's the Holy Spirit that helps us recognize those things, right? So, um, and I I give this example when I do corporate talks all the time. And what this is fun for me. Sorry, I know I'm going, we're talking for an hour now. Um, this is fun for me because I don't get to have this contextual intelligence talk in a Christian context very often. Most of what I do is in a secular context, so I break it down for them in a secular context, but I use a very similar example. Listen, the guy in the hallway across from your office is not just the company's accountant. You might know him as the accountant, but he's also a father, a brother, a husband, a friend, uh a go-karter on the weekend, you know, whatever, whatever. I mean, he's also those things, and it's the Holy Spirit in us that helps us see those other things. I like to say, you know, my dad in that moment, well, the Vulcan death grip moment was he was acting as if the whole it was like a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. Listen, your your person you're talking to, they're not just the accountant. They're someone's husband, they're someone's brother, there's someone's father, someone's friend. And it might be one of those areas that they need a touch from me in. And you need to be open, responsive, and recognize enough, which means being attentive to the Holy Spirit enough to recognize these other things. And so it starts by simply asking the question that a lot of men don't do. Hey, Stan, the accountant, how's your wife? Where did you guys meet? How long have you been together? Hey, I didn't know your boy played soccer for the local club. I saw you at the club last week. My son plays on a different team. How long have you been a soccer dad? You know, whatever. I mean, right identifying people outside of the role that you know them in is a game changer. And that in and of itself is often enough to for them to let you in to be that light, that salt and light that we're called to be.

SPEAKER_03 56:54

Amen. Amen. I know we've been talking for a while, and I want to honor your time.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

And I'm actually looking forward to asking you this question because you you sort of went there in the beginning. I'm guessing you probably already did a study on it. So there's a question I ask every man that comes on the podcast, and it's around David in the cave of Adulum, 1 Samuel 22. That's when David went into the cave after killing Goliath when Saul was chasing him.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Men who were mentioned.

SPEAKER_03 57:28

Disheartened, disheartened, discouraged, disgruntled, were looking for leadership. They came to David in that cave. Yes, they helped David turn, become king. They were later David's mighty men.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 57:42

Modern day, you have a yeah, you do this all the time. So you have disgruntled, disheartened, discouraged men looking for leadership. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_01 57:52

So I would say lift up your heads, you know, honestly. You have to, you have to, you know what the other thing that David did, which is why I believe those men came to him, is they were what likely these men that came to him were the people who ran, you know, and were were fearful of Goliath at the beginning. And David, David said, you know, to them, uh, when when or to Goliath, after all the altercations, it says scripture says that David ran toward the battle. And and David was underqualified, physically outmatched, but yet he ran toward the battle. And I believe it's why those men ran towards David later on, was because they saw something in him that they wanted for themselves. So I would say if you're a man who um finds yourself fearful of running toward the battle, do it because someone else is watching you. If you're a man who's already one of those triple D, I call them the triple D men, you know, and then you need to find yourself a man who you can admire and follow and uh and find someone who's who's practicing life the way that you believe the way you want to practice it. If you can find that person, commit yourself to that person. And uh, and like David, he turned those men into his mighty men, and several of those men became giant slayers themselves. David had five, Goliath had five brothers or four brothers. There's five of them altogether. Uh they went out and they hunted down Goliath's other brothers. Scripture tells us that later on in Samuel. So, you know, they became giant slayers themselves. Some of them became like um lion-like heroes of Moab. Some of them jumped in a pit in a snowy day to fight a lion. I mean, but no, they stand in their in their bean field uh and defeated, uh stood against an entire troop of Philistine warriors to defend his bean field. I mean, these guys would not back down, they would not surrender, um, but they did so because they tied their heart to a person that they believed was better than they were. And and I believe with all of my heart, I practiced this. I I strongly encourage my sons to do the same. You need to find a man who you can respect and honor and and uh attach yourself to them, whether that's again a pastor, life coach, a small group leader, uh anybody. Um you, Mark. I mean, you're doing podcasts, you're doing things. I mean, those are the kind of men we need in our lives. And when we surround ourselves with other men with a like-minded purpose, I believe we will come out on the other side as the mighty men we want to be.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:40

Amen. That's going to be in the hall of fame of answers to that question. Okay. That's awesome. I love it. I love it. I'm glad we made this happen. I think that's a good question. I am too.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

I'm so sorry I was late. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:53

Yeah. Well, and I I missed you once too. So I'm glad we made us have my thoroughly enjoy this conversation. Um, where can Guy Connect with you?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

Uh, so the best place to reach out to me is through my website, uh Matthewcoots.com. So it's Matthew with two T's, M-A-T-T-H-E-W, and then Coots is spelled K-U-T-Z. So Matthew Coots.com. My email is there, the contact page there. Um, that's a great way to reach me.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

Are your are your books on your website as well?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

My books are on my website, yep. Articles that are on my website as well. So, yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:28

Awesome. Awesome. Matt, thank you very much for coming on. Thanks for becoming on for me. All right. God bless you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

God bless.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:38

What a conversation. Matt gave us so much to chew on today. Especially that reminder that if you want to become a mighty man, you need other men that you respect to follow. That's straight out of the cave of a dulum. Those men didn't become mighty alone. They became mighty because they gathered, they sharpened each other, and they followed a man worth following. And that's exactly why I created the cave of a dulum where mighty men are built. Right now it's just a raw cave, nothing polished. But the men who join early are the ones who help build it, and it's completely free to join. In the show notes below, I have a link to a community. It's in it's on the on the school platform. You can join. There are a couple questions to answer once you join. I've been talking about this for a few weeks, and now it's live. In the show notes below, there's a link to a community on the school platform that you can join. There's a pinned uh post at the very beginning where I'm asking you to introduce yourself and share some of the struggles you're you're going through. This, you know, all that will do is it will help me to know what kind of material to add to the group that can help you. And, you know, like I said, it's raw, it's not polished. I want to build it as we all grow together. I'm growing myself. And everyone that comments in that on that thread will respond back to you. Welcome you to the community. I'm looking forward. This is something that's been a vision for a long time is to grow a community of men that will grow together, because I've talked about this since the beginning. Iron Sharp is iron. So just click the link down below in the show notes. If you're on YouTube, it'll be in the show description. If you're listening on the podcast platform, it'll be in the show notes. I'm looking forward to seeing you in the cave. Now, before we wrap up, let me tell you what's coming next week. I sat down with Phil Tay. He's a pastor, a leader, and an author of a book called Jesus be the centerfold. Which, if you're from my era, that's a very interesting title. That's uh why I reached out to interview him because the title intrigued me. But it's really not really about what it seems like. But we do talk a lot about that. Phil brings a bold, honest look at what it means to put Christ at the center of everything. And I promise you, this conversation is going to challenge you in all the right ways. And if you didn't catch it, now starting every Monday, I'm dropping a solo episode. I've been feeling convicted about trying to God's been convicting me about giving more lessons to try to help analog, other than just the interviews. Now these are going to be short, 10-minute or so devotionals. I just did one last week, and if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. This Monday, I'm going if you've been hearing me talk about Romans 12.2. A few weeks ago, God gave me a revelation revelation, and around that verse, Romans 12.2, do not be conformed of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, which is in Christ Jesus. It is the basis for everything I'm going to be doing going forward. We talk about biblical masculinity. That is the foundation of it. And I will be talking about that on Monday. So if you're new to the podcast, subscribe. Let me know. If you're listening on YouTube, if you're watching or listening on YouTube, leave a comment in the show notes. Leave a comment in the comment section. Hello, I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear what you're going through. What this podcast has meant to you, you know, whatever. I'm looking for conversations with men who want to grow stronger in their faith. So on Podcast platforms. There is a link that says send a text here. That will send me a direct fan mail, and I'd love to conversate with you there. Or for sure, you know, we can talk in the community. It's totally free to join. As it grows, I'm going to be adding more things. There's going to be some maybe bi weekly meetings that we can do. There's a whole place in there where you can meet up and just talk to each other one on one. We're going to be doing stuff like that. So I'm done rambling. With that, stay strong, stay valiant, keep forging your path, and be blessed.