Why Men Struggle With Intimacy With God

In this conversation with Pastor Phil Tague, we dig into what it means to move from airbrushed Christianity to covenant faith. We talk about why so many men struggle with intimacy with God, how surrender unlocks spiritual strength, and why leading your family spiritually starts with simply going first.
Phil shares his story of burnout, sabbatical, healing from church hurt, and how God rebuilt his identity from the inside out. We also explore David’s cave of Adullam and what it means for modern men who feel discouraged, disheartened, or stuck.
If you’re a man who wants to grow in spiritual leadership, renew your mind, and become the man God designed you to be, this episode will hit home.
Connect with Phil:
Ransom Church - Setting Captives Free!

Home | Philltague

Want to be a guest on The Valiant Forge Podcast? Send Mark Osborne a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/17432638464878159623a121d
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The Valiant Forge - YouTube

00:00 – Grace That Changes Everything
03:00 – Growing Up Around Church but Missing the Heart
07:30 – Redefining Intimacy With God
10:50 – Men, Independence, and the Lone‑Wolf Lie
12:40 – Surrendering Control and Trusting God
13:50 – Jesus Be the Centerfold: The Story Behind the Book
15:00 – Airbrushed Christianity vs Covenant Faith
18:00 – Leading Your Family Spiritually by Going First
21:00 – The Power of a Father’s Transformation
26:30 – Healing From Church Hurt
33:40 – Sabbatical, Stillness, and Renewal
40:30 – David’s Cave: A Message to Discouraged Men
42:34 – Where to Connect With Phil + His Book
44:04 – Final Takeaway, Valiant Mondays, and the Outro

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

When you hear the word surrender, you think it means to give up but us as Christian men know that surrendering means giving it all to Jesus. And we love to say, Lord, I've surrendered my life to you. But do we truly mean it? Have we really given Jesus our heart? My guest today had that moment where God questioned him. Question he had to face is one that every man runs into at some point. What do you do when you realize you've been following Jesus with your behavior, but not with your heart?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Welcome to the Valiant Force Podcast, where we help men overcome life's battles, show up better in the world, and become a valiant warrior for God. This is a place to look for practical creditors that help equip you on life's journey to help you become the man of God's colour. Are you ready to overcome the doubt and fulfill your purpose just by doing it? If so, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Welcome back to the Valiant Forge. Today I'm joined by Phil Teg. He's an author, leader, and pastor of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls, Sioux Falls, South Dakota. We have a great conversation about covenant faith intimacy, which is a word that men sometimes kind of try to avoid because it's not it's not a manly word, but intimacy with God is something that a lot of men avoid, but that we need. We talk a lot about that. We talk about a concept called airbrush Christianity, which leads me to the book that Phil wrote called Jesus be the centerfold. Now you hear the word centerfold and you think about pornography and Playboy magazines and all that kind of thing. And while Phil did deal with porn addiction and overcame it, the book isn't necessarily about that. It's about choosing covenant faith over airbrushed Christianity. He uses his exposure to pornography as a metaphor for how many believers settle for an edited airbrushed version of Jesus. The book calls men back to a faith that is honest and surrendered, not about performance or convenience. This conversation is deep, needed, and honest. Let's get into it. Phil, welcome to the podcast. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm looking forward to our conversation. So tell me something about yourself. Like how did your faith journey start and what brought you where you are right now?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Uh so my story is a faith story mixed with an adoption story. So I I am one of four adopted kids. Uh don't know anything about my birth family, but adopted into a uh Christian family, church attending family. Um, and so that was always part of my life. Um, and uh my life has been a journey of trying to figure out what it means to walk with Jesus. So um I like I think probably so many people, I was in that um, you know, in a family that was like trying to do the right thing, trying to follow, and my dad in particular, uh trying to be a godly man, and so much of that um presented itself as um strictness, legalism, those types of things. So um, you know, I I was always longing to follow God, wrestling with does that what is does following God mean following a list of rules? Um, and then, you know, so I I spent most of my you know childhood and growing up uh trying to follow the rules and then sort of rebelling and then repenting and trying to follow the rules and then sort of rebelling, and and there was always this tug of war, and there was always this sense in me that there's gotta be more to this thing called faith than just this trying to follow all the rules. Uh I long I had had knowledge of God and longed for a relationship that I heard about but just didn't understand. Um, and that was most of my journey um until after my senior year of high school when I uh ex felt a call to ministry that I did not want. Um I was uh I had plans for my life, you know. Uh the scripture says the Lord knows the plans he has for me. Well I had plans for me too. And uh they were not the same. And um it's usually how it works. Yeah, but I wanted I wanted to obey. Uh so I ended up going to to college to study for ministry, and also um I I was I was studying for ministry and wrestling with my faith at the same time. Uh, and after a year of studying for ministry, I just kind of ran from my calling. Um, spent spent uh a short amount of time really rebelling, really um basically the list I knew I wasn't supposed to do. That was what I did, and uh found myself really lost, really miserable. Um and uh knowing what I was doing wasn't the answer, but knowing I needed more of God than I had ever experienced. Um, and I had a moment in you know, a miserable moment when I woke up in my room after a late night party, didn't remember how I got home, and just felt like the Holy Spirit asked me why I thought the answer to hypoc the hypocrisy of the world was my own hypocrisy. And uh it was kind of this moment where I went, I've followed Jesus in my head, I've never surrendered. And from that moment, surrender's been kind of a big uh theme of my life story.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Wow. So you you said your story is finding the real Jesus. Yeah. So I'm that I'm assuming that was your turning point where you recognize the difference between religion and relationship.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Absolutely. It was um you know, I life has now in the in the 20-some years since then, life has been so far from perfect. I mess up so many times, but there's a difference in how you uh do everything from walk with God, mess up, repent, turn, you know, like all the things that are part of just living life in a broken world uh are all different on the on the other side of that relational dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah, can you can you explain that difference?

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Yeah, I mean I I would probably you know say like you can you know, like if you compare it to a marriage, which is a uh an analogy that all the time the scripture God uses, you know, you can you can do marriage as a uh a contract, you know, like I'll keep up my part, you keep up your part, as long as things are going a certain way, I'm in on this, but when they don't go that way, I'm done. And um if I'm gonna follow all these rules of marriage, I expect it to feel a certain way. All of those things can be the dynamic of your relationship, or you can put r uh, you know, look at your marriage as a covenant, which is why on those marriage documents people have to choose civil or religious. Um and uh when when you choose religious, what you're saying is I want God to be the center of this thing. I'm actually making a covenant before God on behalf of my spouse that I'm gonna love them for better or worse, for richer or poor. And and uh that looks completely different. So, you know, um there are there's a whole list of things I do in my marriage to um keep my wife, um, you know, do the things that she loves, honor her, uh, do the things she doesn't like to do that she wants, you know, like all the, but I don't do them going, if I don't do this, I'm in trouble with my wife. I do them because over 24, almost 25 years of marriage, my my relationship of love has so deepened with her that I want to do the things that bring her joy and and that make her happy, and I don't want to do any of the things that hurt her. And I just think that faith is the same way. We can approach faith as a civil contract and go, you do my your part, you I do my part, and you'll never find all that God has for us. That everything God has for us is far that we read about scripture and we're like, I want that. That is relationship-based, it's covenant-based language.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me of you know, Paul and James. They have this sort of a contrast. Faith. Paul says you're not saved by your works, but James says faith without works is dead. Right. And you know that us as Christian men, we know this, but there may be somebody out there who's listening and doesn't quite understand that contrast.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Yeah, and it sounds like a contrast, but it's it's really or even a contradiction. Right exactly. But it's it's really not, it's a continuation. It's uh when you are saved by grace through faith, when you understand what Jesus actually did for you, why would you not want to give your all in that relationship? And that's what James is saying. James is saying, if you say that, you know, like uh Joby Martin wrote a book called Run Over by the Grace Train. Um in that book. Love that guy, by the way. Yeah, he's amazing, right? Uh in that book, uh, he talks about uh, you know, if you if you walk into church and and uh you tell me, sorry I'm late, I was hit by a train, I'm gonna call you on that because when you when you're hit by a train, it changes everything about everything. And he describes grace that way. When you're hit by grace, like to to say I've experienced the grace of God and to come in and live a completely unchanged life makes no sense because grace changes everything about everything.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yeah, I love that. So for men like you, you know, grew up in church around church, but you felt disconnected from God, how can uh man take that first step, you know, in discovering relationship with Christ?

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah, well, I mean for me it had to be um there were there was some I like I I don't want to sound disrespectful to my father at all. I think my fat my father was you know, he's past, uh, but he was a awesome guy. Loved him, he loved me. I knew I was loved, uh, but that legalistic side of things, I I always found myself comparing God my heavenly father to God my earthly father. And so I would relate to him the same way. And so one of the things that I needed to do first was realize that God my heavenly father was the standard of relationship, and the degree to which my earthly father fell short was his problem, not God, not a God problem. Um, and so once I got that kind of right-sized, um, because there there is, I think, among men in particular, uh a fear of being uh in relationship, a fear of being intimate. Um, in fact, I think even the intimacy language in scripture sometimes scares men away, you know, we're like, I'm a dude, I'm not, you know. Yeah. But but I also think intimacy is is uh poorly defined. So uh in my book, I talk about intimacy as being um intimacy is any situation where you're fully known and still chosen, right? Yeah. So in my marriage, my in uh the older I get, the worse I look that you know, like gravity and time and and my wife still chooses me, that increases our intimacy. And when I choose her, it increases our intimacy. And and uh so for me, I had to become okay with intimacy. I had to, I had to understand that. And I think for guys, it's also hard to admit that we can't do it ourselves. We're in such an individualistic culture and society. Yeah, and that our teacher, our culture teaches us that, yeah, that lone wolf mentality. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, do it yourself, don't depend on anybody. We don't know how to depend on our neighbors, we don't know how to depend on our friends. We're always willing, guys are always willing to offer help, never willing to ask for it. Um, and those things are antithetical to faith, which is completely built on dependence. Yes. Um, and so I think uh becoming okay with not being okay is a hard thing for guys, and I think that's that was the first step for me. Um, I I think I was so sensitive to it because I did run my own way, I did do my own thing, and I found myself miserable. Um, I've also had seasons in my faith where uh even in following, I've chased the things I wanted to chase and kind of invited God along on the journey. And I've even achieved a lot of the things that I thought would, you know, people the world tells you will make you happy. And when you get to those places and you find that you're they don't satisfy, uh you've got to find a different answer. And so it was in a moment of vulnerability like that where I was miserable and God just said, What if you actually trusted me? What if you actually admitted you need me? What if you actually went all in? Uh and it takes that kind of that kind of surrender, that kind of ability to admit you need him to turn that corner.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Yeah. So let's talk about your book for a second, because what struck out to me was the title.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

You know, growing up in the mid-80s, the word centerfold had a different connotation to it. Absolutely. Yeah, so your book's title is Jesus be the centerfold. Yes. So what does it what does that phrase mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 13:09

So, you know, in a if you're if you're looking at the cover, the title is Jesus be the centerfold, but the last part of that word is scratched out, so that it's uh trying to also allude to the idea that he's either going to be a centerfold in your life or he's gonna be the center of your life. You know? Uh there's that picture. And the subtitle is choosing covenant faith over airbrushed Christianity. So I was exposed to pornography at nine years old. Uh I tell my story in the book of that. It's not a book about pornography, it's not a book about pornography addiction. Uh, it's actually a book about covenant. And uh I so I was exposed to pornography at nine years old, uh, friend down the street. Um, dad had a box of magazines, and it got its hooks in me. And somewhere along the line, like I even got to the point where I was studying for ministry and wrestling with pornography addiction. And somewhere along the line, here unfortunately you're not alone in that journey. No.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

There are many men out there.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

There's that duplicity is just real for us. Uh, yeah, but somewhere along the line, I realized, man, this there's a part of this that's about lust, and certainly that's a real issue. But I think the bigger issue is uh a desire for intimacy without the cost of intimacy. It's it's it's a desire for control. So I pornography I realized pornography is like I I wanted relationship, I wanted intimacy. I just didn't want to count the cost of what relationship and intimacy took. And so I settled for an airbrush version of that. And that became for me, and in my book is a metaphor for how we go through our Christian faith. How often do we swipe, you know, right on the scriptures we like and swipe left on the scriptures we don't like? How often do we do we airbrush the the picture of who Jesus is? So we read about the John 3.16, Jesus, God so loved the world, he sent his son. Uh if we confess, you know, like he he's gonna save me, but we we ign reject the part of the picture that says if anyone wants to follow me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. And so we or we we read a standard God lays out in scripture and we go, well, that's that's old testament, or or that's antiquated, or that's not true anymore. And we move the line so that the the savior of the world is palatable to us, and he can serve as savior, but we never let him be Lord. And and so we do really enter into when I talk about this this contractual obligation where as long as the God that I created in my head is behaving the way I want, I'm fine. But then when he doesn't behave the way I want, I question him. And there's a whole generation of Christians who are going through their faith, um, following a Jesus of their own making, questioning him when he fails them on promises they made to themselves, and then wondering why they have faith issues. Yeah. And that's kind of what the book is about.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah. Yeah, I like what you said when you said, you know, we have these scriptures that we swipe right on and swipe left on. Because when you ask someone, you know, what's your favorite scripture? It's always around, it's usually Jeremiah 29.11 or Romans 8.28, which are great scriptures.

unknown 16:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

My favorite scripture, which is and in a lot of ways they mean what they say.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

But if you read Jeremiah 29.11, but you don't read Jeremiah 29, 1 through 10, right. Uh you're you're gonna you're gonna misinterpret that thing. And and if you're listening right now uh and you're not familiar with either of those verses, I'd encourage you to get a Bible and look them up. But if you're if you know Jeremiah 29, 11, I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, to prosper you and not harm you, and go, yes, God's gonna give me stuff, but we don't we read it separate from the context where he's like, hey, you're in you're in slavery right now. You're like in bad, you're in a bad way. And I know it stinks right now, but I'm still with you in the hard. That's what that's really all about. And uh, so yeah, we we just do that with so many areas of our faith. We we take the parts that work for us, we reject the parts that don't, we keep God at arm's length, and then we wonder why faith seems empty and shallow and why God doesn't seem to be there for us. And we go, why why if God is so good, why is life so hard? And and you're then you're like, but he told us it would be hard. He said, In this world you will have trouble. Yeah. I've overcome the world. Uh, and so we end up holding God. Part of the problem is that we're trying to we're trying to take the eternal promises God made to us and apply them to earthly life, but earthly life is for him and it's for his purposes and it's for his kingdom, and then there's eternity to come, but we keep getting mad at God for not making earth feel like heaven.

unknown 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah. One of my favorite scriptures, which is actually it's beautiful poetically, but it's kind of hard to digest when you really break break it down. It's love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, strength, and mind. And the second is like unto it, love thy neighbor as thyself. Beautiful. Super poetic. Jesus said, Those are the greatest two commandments, but it's really hard to live out sometimes. Yeah. You know, you go back to what you were talking about before, where we break the rules all the time, but when we live under grace, you know, God can help us through that.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Well, and I really believe the that first command, the the Shema, the love of the Lord your God, your heart, soul, mind, strength, actually makes the second command, love your neighbor as yourself possible. Correct. Until I love God with all that I am, I won't have the He won't, it won't even be in me. His spirit, I won't have the capacity to love my neighbor as myself. And so imagine how dangerous it is when we love a false version of God falsely, and then wonder why we can't love the people around us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

So how how can men lead their families towards covenant faith, not a convenience faith?

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Um, I mean, I think the short answer is go first. Uh so I meet with guys all the time, and they are, you know, they want to step into that role of being the spiritual leader of their home, but they've slacked on it for so long that they feel like, how can I like I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know scripture very well, my wife knows so much more. She's always been the faithful one, you know what I mean? And so they go, how do I lead, how do I ever get to that point? It just feels like a daunting task. And and I remind guys all the time, this isn't about destination, this is about direction. Yeah. Um, are you pointed towards Jesus? Are you seeking him? So, what I would say to a lot of guys is leading your family spiritually isn't about being the most knowledgeable. It's not about being the one furthest down the road. It's about your family's looking to you to set the tone of your home. What are you modeling for them? And so all it takes to lead your family spiritually is to go first, to pursue God with all you are. Does your family, when they look at your life, see someone hungry for righteousness? When your family looks at you, do they catch you uh, you know, up early in prayer, in the word? It it doesn't mean you know all the things, but do can they are you modeling the fervorency of chasing after God? If you do that, you that is being the spiritual leader of your home.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Right. I like to tell guys excuse me for a second. I like to tell guys to just show up. Yeah. It sounds simple, but showing up doesn't mean just being there. Right. It means to actually be present, you know, show up, like you're saying in the Bible. When your child comes to you and asks for uh advice on something, are you leading them through biblical direction or just worldly advice? That shows your kids everything. My my father, so my story, my father got saved when I was 14. So I saw two different contrasts in my father. I saw the father who would kind of just, you know, he had that cowboy up mentality, just own up and do what you need to do, and then right after he got saved, he was diving into the word of God and he started reading his Bible, and then his advice totally shifted within a year. And I like that's why I'm a Christ follower now, because I saw it in my father.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Yeah. Yeah, it makes such a big difference. I I don't know the the act, you know, the exact statistics, but I know that um the for children who stay faithful to church, stay faithful to the faith. You know, if mom was the only one who took him to church, it's like under 10%. And if dad is the one who takes him to church, it's like over 70%. Uh it just has a massive uh impact for some uh I mean, I'd call it God. God's design, but when when a man takes spiritual uh responsibility and ownership of his own faith and of saying to his children, This is this is what I believe. And you know, as it says in Joshua, choose this day whom you will serve, but as for me and my house, we're gonna serve the Lord. Uh, when that choice is made by the Father, it has a profound impact. And it's not because the father had all the biblical answers, it's because the father modeled what it meant to to seek wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Amen. Um, let's let's go back, let's switch gears for a little bit. Let's talk about your your love your life as a pastor.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

You you pastor a ransom church is the name of it.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Yeah. So my wife and I um, you know, we we pastored a couple of places out of college, but in uh around 2007, 2008, we felt this call to plant a church and and really wrestle with that and uh and felt this call to plant a church that was um not just satisfied with you know Sunday attendance and check boxes for salvation, but like wanted to walk with people holistically through life and teach them what it meant to truly seek after God in all things. And and uh so we started Ransom Church in uh March of 2009. Um, and uh with uh with another couple, the two of us uh co-founded the the church and have been leading it ever since and um have just been blessed to watch God uh lead a lot of people to Christ, but also see a lot of people hearts change. We started a church planting network in 2018, uh 2019 that is now training church planters and has trained um I I want to say close to 40 church planters at this point. Wow. And uh sending sending them out partnering with other uh dis areas of our denomination, districts in our denomination, and and just training up planters all over the country to uh just make sure the gospel gets out there.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Yeah. So at your church, you you emphasize freedom in Christ, I'm sure, right? So how do you do yeah, go ahead. How do you help people understand that freedom doesn't mean passivity, it just deeper obedience?

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Uh yeah, so our the name of our church wasn't like just some name that we picked. We we prayed about it. Uh my wife and I prayed about it, and and in kind of a divine moment over a week and came to the same conclusion. Um, God gave us one phrase, I want you to set captives free. And we we wrestled with what does that actually mean? You know, what what does what is he asking us to? And very quickly, it was, you know, this is more than just about, you know, salvation's not the finish line, it's the starting line. Um, but we want to see people experience holiness of life and and change. And so uh out of that what came a wrestling match with God. What what do you want us to actually do? And our core values are that we want to help people learn to worship free of inhibition. We gotta we gotta help people figure out how to connect with God in a real and meaningful way. Uh, we want to help people live more and more free of sin, know that um God wants to continue to uh to use the biblical word sanctify you or set you apart, uh, that you can you can actually grow. It's not just like pray to be saved and then circle the wagons. You can actually like grow in your faith, push back darkness in this world, um, and then teach people how to serve free of themselves. There's for some reason there's a light switch that turns on in people's faith when they start to do things that they don't benefit from that are that are about king the kingdom and about helping about other people find the kingdom. And so our kind of our mantra is that we want people to worship free, live free, serve free so you can be set free to be who God made you to be. Um and so we're we're constantly talking to people about their role in the body of Christ, their spiritual responsibility as a priesthood of believers, uh, for the places and the spaces they live, uh, and then what it means to uh be set free to actually find your God-given identity and go, God made me this way on purpose for his purposes, and I'm living for his purposes. Uh, that's what we're trying to help uh form in people's lives.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Yeah. So, like you were talking about earlier, where you grew up in a legalistic home. I was in a church for a long time that was very legalistic. Like if I if one of my daughters had a school event and I missed church for that, I would get reprimanded. Like, oh, you gotta be in church because you forsake not the fellowship of the gathering of the body. You know, I would hear stuff like that all the time. So I I got church hurt. So how do you how do you how what does healing look like and restoration look like for someone who's been church hurt?

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Well, I mean, I think it starts with um identifying where the hurt came from. Um church hurt, um you know, I we always tell our people God works God's uh primary mode of working when we're off track is conviction, not guilt or shame. Right. And there's a massive difference. And so when I do something that I know is displeasing to the Lord, conviction is that feeling I have where I'm like, I love him, I hate that I hurt him, I don't want to do that again, right? And that's a really healthy uh relationship with God. Um guilt and shame uh is a tool of the enemy and is usually wielded upon us by some often well-meaning humans, right? So I think remembering that I don't have church hurt, I have church people hurt. I don't have church hurt, I don't have kingdom hurt, I don't have God hurt. I, you know, leading my church through COVID, uh, we were we were fairly, I mean, we're a pretty big church, but we were fair, we were really quite large uh before COVID. And, you know, COVID was a time for pastors where you're leading and you can't do anything right. You know, every every decision you make is wrong for someone. People are leaving every week and telling you how terrible you are and all this. And I I ended up going on sabbatical in 2021, and I was I was done with people with church. I was done with people, I was done with I now my faith in God was not shaken. But I was just done with I I couldn't understand church people. Why are church people so terrible? Well, I mean, they were hurting, and hurting people hurt people, it's what they do. And so God took me through a healing journey where He helped me realize he was not the source of any of my pain, and he was always faithful, and the problem was I had wrapped my identity up in the wrong things. Uh, so often uh church hurt comes from um feeling like we need to maintain a certain status in the eyes of church people, and we don't. Church people are just you know, other people who are desperately in need of a savior doing their best to try to figure out, and they're imperfect and they're they're a mess. And uh so I I would just say to anybody who has church hurt, you don't actually have church hurt, you have Christian hurt, you have church people hurt, you have sinner hurt, like uh another sinner who's trying to do the right thing hurt you in their attempt to do the right thing, and that is not right, it's absolutely wrong, but it's not the issue, it's not the church, the issue is not faith, the issue is that we expect Christians to be perfect and they're not.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yeah, I love that frame. Church hurt has become such a buzzword lately. And I've I've never actually heard it frame like that, where you're your people hurt. And I knew that when I came out of that that place where I was at, where it was very legalistic and all that. So um, now that you're leading a church and a family, how do those two callings sharpen each other?

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Um, well, you know, I mean, I I think that a lot of leaders, especially if, you know, well, I was gonna say if your church is growing, but I think this is true for pastors, if your church is growing or is not growing, we feel like the answer to that is more hours, more time. And what God has said to me, because I was I was like killing it at work, and I wasn't always as present as I wanted to be with my family. Um, what God has said to me, uh, number one, is uh sharing your faith as a calling. The ministry you have as an opportunity, uh, but you're you have a calling to share your faith and you have a calling to your family, and both of those supersede any job that you might have. Um, so he has really encouraged me. Number one, never forsake your calling to your family. Never see it as a lesser calling than your calling to the church. If anything, uh it's it's a you have a calling to your family, and you have a calling to meet, and you have an opportunity to live out that calling through full-time ministry. And that may not always be the case, but that's just a job. Your family's what you take with you. And uh, you can get another job, you can't get another family. Uh and uh so don't forsake that calling. Number two uh was just um, you know, when I when I quit pay playing the comparison game, if I'm if if my ministry is a car and I'm looking through the windshield at all the things I see God doing, life is really, really, you know, it's not perfect, but it's good. It's good.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Uh when I look in the rear view and I compare to where we were, or I look in the side view and I compare to the church down the street next to me that's a little bit bigger. Now I'm on I'm dissatisfied with what's going on, and now I feel like I gotta strive more. And so I've got to keep my my eyes forward at the church. And so uh what God has just continued to whisper to me is uh don't lead the church you had, and don't leave the church you want, lead the church you have. Um and when I'm satisfied with that, and when I'm uh and then the third, the third piece of that is coming out of my sabbatical, um, because I was playing the comparison game, because I was uh letting letting my identity get wrapped up in this church I was leading. Um I I felt you know personally wounded. I felt like I was failing because I wasn't thinking things weren't going as good as the church down the street, even though they were going better than a hundred churches down the street the other way, you know. Um, and uh and uh once I he he just said, quit chasing worldly success with your church, just chase me. The only success I want you to chase is obedience. And when I live in that state of mind, I can go to work and it can be really great and I don't take the credit, or I can go to work and it can be really hard, and I can lay my head on my pillow and go, was I obedient? And if I was, I can fall asleep with peace. And that when I live that way where with obedience is the thing I'm chasing, um there's I'm not bringing home to my family the baggage of feeling like I'm failing at work. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

So at my at my church right now, we're going through a series called Act Like a Men.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

And what I'm doing is going through men in the Bible who have failed and stepped up and act like a man, and God used them. The two people we just passed, uh, I'm leading towards a question eventually. But was David and Elijah, and I just did Elijah this past week. Elijah took refuge in a cave. You know, God led him to the cave. But you're you're talking about your sabbatical. David took refuge in the cave of a Duam. I'll get to that question in a minute. But before we get there, I want to ask you about your sabbatical. What did you do during that sabbatical? How did you seek God?

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Well, you know, I mean, a couple of things. So I did a bunch of research before my sabbatical of like, what are you supposed to do on a sabbatical? Because for some reason we've got this really unhealthy mentality that if we're gonna get that much paid time off, um, we should be doing something to sharpen ourselves, grow, you know, whatever. Uh and you feel like you got to write a report to my board. Um, and I did all this research and found articles of like, here's what you could do, here's what you could do. Uh, I found one article, I can't remember where the source was, but it was essentially like the whole point of sabbatical is don't. Like, don't. Uh, you know, we we live every week at 100 miles an hour, and then we slow down on the weekends to 70 miles an hour, and we don't know what zero feels like. Right. And so uh so much of what I did, I I I went to a my wife and I went to a retreat center um for pastors who are on sabbatical, um, and I was annoyed how much d open schedule we had just to be, because I was like, what are we learning? How are we growing? You know, uh I needed that space to just be. Um, it took me my entire sabbatical to figure out what it meant for him to be enough. And I think that uh, you know, it takes a long time. I mean, the reason sabbatical exists is because we don't sabbath well, right? Right. And so it it took a long, long time for me to uh get past the noise in my own head. And so I would say 80% of my sabbatical was figuring out how to be still and know that he is God, and the other 20% was sitting in that stillness and uh was worth every every moment of it. And and so, you know, coming back with a perspective, and I actually I just met with the staff yesterday. Uh she is uh her and her husband are uh both on staff and they're both finishing up a sabbatical. She comes back next week. Um, and the things she learned about herself, about how her childhood had um shaped her may change her role, you know, uh down the road. Uh, but even if it doesn't, she's not doing the job out of the same place. Uh she set down the job and if as she picks it up, she's doing it from a place of of health with nothing to prove. And uh that's really the best, like the most the healthiest way to sabbatical.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Wow. So now that you've gone through the sabbatical and now you're you're working again or while you're ministering again. Yeah. How do you how do you maintain that so you don't have to go through another long sabbatical?

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Well, so we actually look at sabbatical as preventative in our denomination. Our district in particular in our denomination, our district superintendent encourages churches to send their pastors on sabbatical every seven years. Oh. Period. Like just period. And I hadn't had one in you know 20 plus years. Uh so I took I took one, I took one that was too short, I didn't know what I was doing. I'm already looking forward to my next one. Um the the so often we treat sabbatical like uh an overhaul of our system, like, okay, we're about to the the engine's about to blow up. Um and I I always, you know, I just say things like Sabbath and sabbatical aren't about overhaul, they're about oil change. Um if you don't, if you don't have regular maintenance on your car, by the time you get to the problem, uh, it's expensive and sometimes not fixable. And we're trying to approach sabbatical from a standpoint of um why don't I maintain my soul instead of wait till it's about to crash and then hope I can save it, right? Uh hope I can do the do the work um to to save my ministry or whatever. Um and so yeah, I coming out of that, I I didn't come out of you know I would say don't go into your sabbatical if you're really hurting and you need a sabbatical and you're kind of broken, don't go into your sabbatical thinking it's gonna fix everything. What sabbatical did was give me enough time to identify the problem and orient myself the right direction. And a lot of the healing has been taking faithful steps from there, working differently, having accountability to keep me working the right way with the right mindset, not not you know, striving for success in the sense of the world, but striving for obedience. Um, and then um having my family hold me accountable to Sabbath well. I I actually um I've gone from a guy who didn't know how to take a day off to a guy that thrives on a day off, thrives on on time off, um is really good at setting down the cell phone, really good at setting down the computer, um, and just being with my family. Um I used to, if I sat around too long, I was wired to run, run, run. I'm an Enneagram three and I'm driven and I'm pretty, you know, and I was uh I feel I yeah, I didn't know how to I didn't know how to shut it off. Um and I would actually um rest would give me anxiety. I would have panic attacks. Um and I've had to learn how to once I learned how to be still and know that he is God, I've learned how to just be still in general. And uh so I really look forward now to I found things that I like to do, hobbies. Uh, you know, I found that I like uh maybe this will resonate with a lot of guys because I'm in ministry and the work is never done, you can excuse never to never stop doing it, you know, never take a break. Um, but I've learned that to find a hobby where there's a beginning and an end where I build something or I bake something or I smoke some meat or I do like something where there's a beginning and there's an end, and I go, it's done.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Right, and you have a finish. That's probably really yeah, really restorative for my soul. Wow. So now that we're gonna topic of sabbatical and you know, caves and refuge. Yeah. There's a question I ask every man that comes on the podcast. David, in 1 Samuel 22, after slaying Goliath, Saul Gagellus was gonna pursue him and kill him. So David ran to the cave of Aduam. While he was in that cave, men of the kingdom, disgruntled, disheartened, discouraged, came to David. David eventually became leader of these men, they were his mighty men. Modern day, you got a group of men in front of you who are disheartened, discouraged, disgruntled. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 40:25

Oh man, what a rich question.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Um I mean, I think learning from David, um, I think kind of some key lessons. Number one, I think he would tell him to take heart. You know, he was he was the anointed one. He knew he was the anointed one, and yet here he is hiding in a cave. Uh I think he would say, Tell God you're angry. Like, don't you don't have to pretend like this isn't hard. If you read the Psalms, David would man, how I wish he would fight my enemies, right? But but he always ended with, But I trust you. I see you, I trust you. Um I you know, I would say never um, you know, um, when you're being attacked by the souls of the world, never never use that to justify becoming one. Um, you know, you see plenty of times where David leads the men, they have opportunity to end Saul's life and he doesn't do it. He doesn't do it, you know. So don't compromise your integrity because you're frustrated. You know? Right. Um and uh I would say uh the kind of man you are in the cave is uh determines the kind of man you are when God gives you a kingdom. Right? Um so David's leadership was formed in that testing. And and I think we see that with anybody who um you know who un who undergoes testing, you you either in fact the big difference between uh David and Saul, uh, I mean if you think about it, Saul Saul was like arrogant and he was kind of a coward and he didn't trust God sometimes. David like committed adultery and murdered a dude and I'm not saying there's degrees, but that seems worse to me, right? Uh so why is he a man after God's own heart? Because uh when one man messed up, he had had the experience and and walked in the experience of repentance and the other guy made excuses, right? Yeah, and so be a man who walks in a spirit of repentance, not a spirit of excuses, um, and you'll have a Davitard. You'll you'll be much more inclined to have a David Tart.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Amen. I love that answer. So where where can guys connect with you? Where can they find your book? And if you want to, you know, if there's anybody listening in South Dakota, they're looking for a church.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Yeah, yeah. Uh I mean Ransom Church, we'd love to have you. Uh uh if you're in Sioux Falls area, if you're around Sioux Falls area, if you're even if you're close and you just need something to uh connect, you can uh watch at ransom.online. Um or you go to ransom.church and you can get our um our back you know messages and things like that. Um uh you can you can connect with me through that website. Uh you can connect with me on my website, filltag.com. Um if you if you go to that website, it's mostly dedicated to um this book and the launch of this book, but there is uh one of the values of going to that website, there's a study guide there. So if you want to go through it with a group group of guys uh and uh wrestle with the book, there's a free study guide there. Uh you can get buy the book on Amazon, uh Jesus be the centerfold, choosing covenant faith over airbrushed Christianity. Uh it's available uh Kindle, softcover hardcover. Um, and I am in the process of narrowing the narrating the Audible, and it will it should release on Audible on Good Friday or Black Friday. Um awesome.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Phil, thank you very much for coming on. It was a pleasure having you. I'm looking forward to having another conversation with you sometime later in the future.

unknown 43:59

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Great to be here. Amen. God bless you. Thanks. If there's one thing I want you to take away from this conversation, it's this. God isn't asking you to be perfect, He's asking you to be honest. Intimacy with God starts when you let yourself be fully known. And when you surrender. Now, if this episode encouraged you or you think that another man could use this message, please share it with them. And as I always say, subscribe to the podcast and whatever stream or platform you're listening to it on. If you're on YouTube, leave a thought in the comments below on your thoughts about surrendering everything to Jesus or your what do you think airbrushed Christianity means. Other reminders, I now am doing solo episodes every Monday that I'm calling Valiant Mondays. This Monday coming, I'm going to be talking about what it means to renew your mind. I'm doing a study right now on renewal and what that actually looks like. If you listened to last week's this this week's episode that just came out this past Monday, I got into a little bit of how all of a sudden, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while or watching this podcast for a while, all of a sudden I started changing everything around the frame of Romans 12, too. Do not conform to this world, but be renewed by the transforming of your mind. And in the next few weeks, on Mondays, Valiant Mondays, I'm going to be breaking that down. This coming week, I'm going to be breaking down the word renewal and how to really renew your mind. Something that I said on that last podcast that I want you to continue to think about and let me know what you think, because I think it's somewhat controversial. Where you are in your life right now, for the most part, despite mitigating circumstances, is a result of the decisions you've made that brought you to this point. If you get renewed by the transforming of your mind, you will make proper decisions that can help you live a better life and become the man you're supposed to be. But more on that Monday. For now, stay strong. Oh, one more thing. I did create a group, a community, that if you want to go deeper, you have questions. I'm going to be creating some challenges in there and asking some questions. I'm going to create an accountability group for things you're struggling with. I'm going to create a workout plant you can use a few times a week that will help you get on the path to becoming a better man. So there's going to be a link in the show notes. There also will be a link for Phil's website, his church website, and his book. And just pay attention to the show notes below if you're interested in any of these things. I will see you on Monday. Stay strong, stay valiant, keep forging your path, and be blessed.