Grafted In: A Man’s Call to Reconcile

When God lifts the weight off a man’s shoulders, He often hands him a mission.
In this episode, Steven “Wade” Cunningham shares the moment everything changed for him — a physical, undeniable sense of belonging — and how that encounter led him into decades of studying the relationship between Christians and Jews.

This conversation goes far deeper than a testimony. Wade and I explore the Jewish roots of our faith, the history that fractured our spiritual family, and the misconceptions that have shaped Christian thinking for centuries. We talk about the “blood guilt” verse, the role of Rome in the crucifixion, and why reconciliation isn’t optional for Christian men who want to walk in truth, courage, and humility.

If you’ve ever felt like something was missing in your understanding of Scripture…
If you’ve ever wondered how Christianity and Judaism truly connect…
If you want to grow into the man God has called you to be…

This episode will challenge you, stretch you, and strengthen your faith.

Topics We Cover:  
• Wade’s powerful conversion moment (“the weight lifted”)
• The Jewish foundations of the Christian faith
• Why the Old Testament is essential for Christian men
• How one verse fueled centuries of misunderstanding
• The early church’s struggle with Gentile believers (Acts 15)
• What reconciliation looks like today
• Why Christian men must lead with truth and courage

About Wade: 
Steven “Wade” Cunningham is an author, pastor, and lifelong student of Scripture whose work focuses on healing the relationship between Christians and Jews. His book, The Affirmation of Reconciliation Between Jews and Christians, calls believers to confront history with honesty, humility, and courage.

The Affirmation of Reconciliation Between Jews and Christians

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

But at that moment, um it all clicked. You know, it it all just clicked, you know. And the only the only way I can describe, you know, really what happened, Mark, was um a a physical sensation of weight coming off of me, you know. That's how that's the only way I can describe it. It was really like um, it was really just felt that way. Like it just felt like I was lifted, like this weight was lifted. I was lighter, you know.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Welcome to the Valiant Force Podcast, where we help men overcome life doubt, show up better in the world, and become a valiant force. This is a place to get a practical practice that put life starting to help. Are you ready to overcome the doubt and fulfill your process like you? Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Mark Osborne, the host of the podcast. Today I'm joined by Stephen Wade Cunningham. He's an author and a pastor who has spent decades studying the relationship between Jews and Christians. We start with the moment God lifted the weight off of his shoulders, but we don't stay there. This is a very deep conversation about the Jewish roots of our faith, the history that's divided our spiritual family, and why Christian men today have a responsibility to pursue truth, courage, and reconciliation. Let's get into it. Steve, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

Thank you, Mark. I go by Wade, by the way, my middle name.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

I was about to ask you that. Do you prefer to be called Wade or Steve?

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Yeah, whenever uh somebody calls me Steve, and I always think they must be a telemarketer, you know. So Wade is Is Wade like a nickname or is that your middle name? No, it's my middle name, and I've I just have always gone by my middle name ever since, you know, since I was little. Um and I don't know if it's a Texas thing or or what that is, but um yeah, ever since I was little, I've always been gone by my middle name.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

So tell me tell me about yourself. I know you've gone to seminary and you've done a lot of theological studies.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

Yeah, I I grew up in uh Texas. I grew up in Houston, Texas. That's where I was born. And um in, you know, when I was younger, much younger, I would say, you know, like even like toddler age, two, three years old, uh even up to four. Um my my family, we went to church quite a lot. I don't really remember it because I was so young. But uh then something happened at our church, some kind of church split. I'm not quite sure all the details of what happened, but um, we just quit going. And really, uh, you know, I grew up in a home that was uh, you know, for the most part, um we weren't, you know, uh um antagonistic to religion. We were Christian nominally. I guess I, you know, how I would describe it, you know, like maybe Christian in name only. Uh we we might go to church once or twice a year, uh, maybe at Easter, you know, around the Christmas, but but it really wasn't an active part, you know, of our family, you know, or my life really growing up. And um and then um things began things changed really when I when I turned 17. My sister had recent recently um come to faith in Christ. And then my mom also, because of that, she had rededicated herself to her uh faith uh that she had. Um so both my mom and my sister were you know actively you know going to church at this time. And I I was a teenage um young man. I mean, I was 17, and uh, you know, church was not number one on my list of things to do. You know, I I had to drink beer and smoke things and you know, chase girls and do all the things that you know teenage guys do. Yeah. So that was my life, you know, and that was what was important to me. But um, you know, my my mom and my sister, they they were praying for me, they were going to Bible study, and they were having people pray for me. Um, and I just, you know, everywhere I went, I just was um, I wouldn't say confronted, but there was something about Jesus Christ that kept coming up. You know, I don't know whether it was uh a book or a a song or someone I met or someone I talked to. It just seemed like it kept coming up, you know, like uh something it was just after me. And um, so my mom during this time too, she would uh sit down with me, you know, and she would try to explain, you know, the scriptures and the gospel. And uh, you know, Mark, I I just to this day I really don't remember it. I don't have any memory memory of it, you know. Interesting. Yeah, and she uh on numerous occasions, you know, she would sit down with me and open the Bible and talk to me and you know, read scriptures to me and lay out the gospel message. And, you know, I'd be like, Well, yeah, can I have the keys? I gotta go to a kick party. So um, you know, this went on for a while, and um finally, you know, uh my mom and my sister asked me if I wanted to go talk to the youth pastor of the church. And I was like, All right, I'll go. I yeah, just to get them off my back, you know. I mean, so uh I agreed that that I would go and talk to the youth pastor. And um so I did, you know, and he laid out really the same thing my mom had been trying to tell me. Uh and really that uh I've been kind of like things have been attracting me towards uh the message of Jesus. For some reason, I can't explain what it was. All these different things were happening. Um, so he said, you know, this is really the good news. That's what the gospel is, you know. Um the gospel means good news. And the good news is that um through Christ we can have forgiveness of our sins and hope of eternal life uh because of his resurrection. And um the light just came on, and he said, This is an open invitation for anyone, anybody that wants to truly repent and really put your faith in Christ and be baptized. This is available to everyone. And um, so he asked me, is is this something that you would want? Would you want to receive this gift? You know, and I said, Well, yeah, you know, of course. Uh why why wouldn't I? So um, so we prayed together, and um and it was everything my mom had been telling me, but I wasn't hearing, you know, that's the thing. It was everything that my sister had been telling me, but just didn't want to pay attention to it, you know. But at that moment, um it all clicked, you know, it it all just clicked, you know. And the only the only way I can describe, you know, really what happened, Mark, was um a a physical sensation of weight coming off of me, you know. That's how that's the only way I can describe it. It was really like um it was really just felt that way, like it just felt like I was lifted, like this weight was lifted. I was lighter, you know. Um and I also had that deep deep inner knowing, I I call it, uh just a real deep inner sense that uh not only uh does God exist, you know, he's not a distant out there, he is intimately related to me, and I belong to him now. That's the feeling I have that um that um I was his that that the God of the universe is real and he can be experienced. And I just felt that just wave of acceptance, wave of belonging, you know, like a belonging to um I don't know how to describe it, you know. Really, I'm I mean, I'm trying to put this in words, but at some level it's it's uh you can't I can't quite describe it. It's just uh a deep inner assurance that God is real and that I belong to him, you know.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

You're not the first person that I've heard tell ex describe it like this, where they can't really explain. They just know, and you're also not the first person I've heard say they just felt, and myself as well. I was 14 when I gave my life to the Lord, and I felt a weight just lift off of me, the exact same experience, and there is that that that sense of belonging and all of a sudden I don't know if I experienced it when I was a 14-year-old boy, but as I got a little bit older, there was a sense of a greater purpose.

SPEAKER_05 9:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Rather, rather than just I'm living my life to to chase women and drink and you know have a good time. Life was about so much more. That's the experience. And I think that's what you're trying to describe. Am I correct?

SPEAKER_04 9:54

Yeah, you know, I couldn't have said it better. Uh, I mean, that that is exactly it. Um, but I also uh have realized, I mean, that I was 17, you were 14. And, you know, people often say, well, how many problems could you have had as a 17-year-old? You know, I mean, you didn't, I didn't have a mortgage, I didn't have a wife and kid, you know. But I had the real problems of a 17-year-old young man that were real to me. And so uh that's what's so interesting is um it doesn't matter when you come to faith in Christ or how much weight you bring, you know, He is there to lift that weight and burden off of you. And that that's what I realized is that that is available for everyone. Everyone. That's available for everyone. But like you were saying, it doesn't stop there. I felt this sense of belonging, I felt this sense of acceptance and just overwhelming love, you know. But I also knew I was supposed to grow into a bigger purpose, and that this was just the start of something, not the hammock to lay in, you know, so to speak. So I knew that there would be a uh maturing, like there would be a progress that I would be going through, you know, and then as I've as I've progressed in my uh understanding of my faith, I realized that that is what discipleship is. You know, that that uh you know uh faith in Christ is ultimately means that you're his follower, you know, that his teachings uh are not just plaques on a wall. Uh they're there are principles and commands that we take seriously and try to put into into action in our personal lives, but in our world as well. And you know, um we're called to be salt and light, right? Um uh light shines in the darkness, salt preserves from decay. So um this is who we are, and this is who God calls us to be, you know, as followers of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Amen. So going back to the the sense of purpose, I know I know your your passion now is bringing together Jews and Christians. You know, recon reconciling that, reconciling that. So when you when you you had a trip to Israel, is that what kind of ignited that in you?

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Uh uh it was something that definitely threw fuel on the fire. But I would say it, you know, uh it was always there because um, you know, from the time I came to faith in Christ, uh, one of the things uh also that changed about me was that I had a deep hunger for scripture. I just couldn't put it down. You know, I just couldn't stop reading the scriptures, you know. And so, you know, the the the Old Testament stories, you know, of uh all the people in the Old Testament, Abraham, who we're all tied to ultimately, Abraham, you know, the father of faith, King David, you know, Jesus himself, Moses, you know, all these people that I read about, you know, were all Jews. I mean, uh, so I always kind of had that sense of like, you know, Daniel, the story of Daniel is one of my favorite biblical characters, you know, the story of Daniel, you know, and the lion's den, and they're they're taken off the captivity, and he has this vision of the son of man. And then in the midst of all these kingdoms and world conflict, there stands this at the center of it all, the son of man, you know, and of course Jesus refers to himself as the son of man. So I guess I just realized how much of our New Testament is tied into the Old Testament, you know, that they're so intimately related and connected that honestly, if you didn't have the Old Testament and just started reading the New Testament, I think it really wouldn't make a lot of sense, you know, because it it comes out of Judaism. Jesus himself was a first century rabbi, you know. Uh all the apostles were Jews, the Virgin Mary, uh Jesus' own mother, a Jewish mother. So um that was already kind of uh the theological foundation that I came from, you know, and that was already the theological um garden that was growing in my life, so to speak, from from the scriptures. And even the New Testament is written by Jews for the most part, almost all of it, except for Luke and X. Um, but when I actually was able to go to Israel in college and travel and actually go to Jerusalem and then, you know, visit uh all the different places in Israel, um, all those places that I read about became real. You know, there were real places in real history. These were real people that lived and walked the earth just like you and me. Uh, and then I also uh found out something very interesting um that there's never been an archaeological discovery that contradicts the Bible. Quite the opposite. And so that's all going on in the land of Israel as well. So I guess all of that together, Mark, it kind of put within me a passion to understand our relationship with with to the Jewish people. Because, you know, uh oftentimes we think of ourselves as Christians. Well, I'm a Christian. Well, um, Christianity is a branch of Judaism. I mean, if you if you really want to get technical about it, Judaism is the largest religion in the world, of which Christianity is a branch. Um, so um I had a real passion to understand that the fund, the most fundamental of all religious relationships, you know. And so uh even after college, after you know, getting a bachelor's degree in communications from the University of Texas, uh, I I've got I've got a one-year Bible certificate, attended Dimmer Seminary, and I've remained a lifelong learner, even though I had a long career uh in the private sector, working in home health and hospice, I've had a long uh lifelong um time of learning, studying this issue, trying to understand um what is the proper understanding of a Christian to a relationship with the Jewish people, and what is the proper relationship with of Christianity and Judaism? And um how do we get that right? And how to understand the troubled and in uh history that is uh, you know, good, bad, and ugly. You know, let's just call it what it is, you know. And and and any reconciliation has to reconcile history, you know, Mark. So anyway, that's kind of a long answer to that question of yours, but I think all those things together kind of uh uh drove my passion for this topic.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

I gotcha. So you asked a couple of questions in your explanation. Could you answer some of those questions? Uh yes. Well, go ahead. Which ones? Um, you know, what what do Christians and Jews how do how do we reconcile Christianity and Judaism? And what what do Christians uh misunderstand? What are some misconceptions that we have about Judaism that you know we need to reconcile?

SPEAKER_04 18:09

Well, I think, you know, I I I talk about that quite a bit in in the book, you know, and and I kind of trace the history of the of the Jewish-Christian relationship. Um and it's evolved over time in different historical epochs depending on the power structure of uh who was in power at the time. But I'd say two of the uh biggest um misconceptions that historically, two of the biggest misconceptions I think that Christians have had that have been detrimental, I think, to a mutually respectful relationship between Jews and Christians. The first I would say would be um the idea of the blood libel, the blood guilt, the idea that Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus, that Jews were the Christ killers. Um and uh and that has been something that has been uh been true historically. It's not something that's just come up recently and people talk about. I trace how that that theology, that thought, had become mainstream for a long time in Christian history. And then is that not accurate? Well, it's I mean I know the Romans did the killing, but the Jews Well, yeah, it it's a quote from uh Matthew uh 27, 25, I believe is the reference. Um where um in in the passion scene where uh the leaders of the time that were calling for Jesus Christ, Jesus' crucifixion say his blood be upon us and upon our children, right? So that's the one verse that was used throughout history to justify at first, it became a reason to um justify why bad things were happening to Jews, you know, why the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple, why the Jews were dispersed. Well, uh in early Christian fathers, in some of the early Christian writings, uh not all, but some, uh there was this idea that um this was God's punishment for the Jewish people for uh for the crucifixion of Jesus. So all you know, all these things that are happening are God's punishment. And so it began to be be mainstreamed that this verse uh was used really throughout history to then not just justify why bad things were happening to Jews, but then to even justify doing bad things to Jews. And this is what my book traces, and it traces the history, and again, it's 2,000 years of history, Mark, you know, trying to uh be honest about it, but not get bogged down into it. Um but this is the real honest history. So um the misconception that I try to confront is that uh that is a verse in the New Testament, but it certainly wasn't speaking for all Jews at that time, much less all Jews for all time throughout all history. I mean, after all, uh that can't be possible. Right. Because Jesus' apostles were Jews, his mother was a Jew, all of his early followers were Jews, all the writers of the New Testament were Jews. The people that took the gospel to the entire world were Jews. So to take that one verse and then to to broad brush all Jews for all time as being responsible for the guilt of uh the death of Jesus is uh tragic, historically has had tragic. Consequences. Um, so how how do we look at that and how do we do it as Christians? Well, the way that I dealt with it is to look at it historically. Is that historically accurate to say that? Well, the the Jewish people at the time didn't even have the um punishment of execution available to them. It wasn't lawful for them to execute. Only Rome had the power to execute. So if you looked at who is ultimately responsible for executing Jesus Christ, it is the Romans. Yes. Because they gave the order, right?

unknown 22:46

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

Pontius Pilate gave the order when he washed. Maybe he did it for uh political reasons. I'm sure he probably did. There were probably a lot of reasons he did it, but ultimately responsibility for execution falls on the Romans. Okay, that's number one. Number two, to say that all Jews for all time are responsible and bear the guilt of the crucifixion of Jesus is theologically incoherent. Because even uh the Old Testament scriptures point to a sacrificial system, a atoning for sin with blood. Um the Isaiah 53 talks about that the Messiah would come, but he would be, how would we recognize him? He'll be rejected by his own, he will be pierced for our transgressions, he will be crushed for our iniquities. The crucifixion of Jesus was not a surprise to God. Right. He is what he was baptized by John the Baptist in the in the River Jordan, and and what does he say? Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. This is theological symbolism of a sacrifice for the sins of the world. So that means that the redemptive plan of God was that Christ would suffer for the sins of mankind and it was laid at the foundation of the world, it says. So that's kind of how um I address that issue and how I've come to address that issue more. Does does that make sense? Yeah.

unknown 24:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

So how how do we reconcile that? Like, I know after a lot of the Jews rejected Jesus after he was slain, the twelve, which were Jews, they a lot of them were commissioned to reach the Gentiles, which is us. You know, that that's and Paul mostly reached Gentiles, am I correct? I'm not as good with theology as you are, so no, I I think that is correct.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

Um, you know, the apostle Paul is called the Apostle to the Gentiles. Right. That's his name, you know, that's his title. Um so yeah, initially the uh the Church of Jesus Christ was Jewish in nature, but increasingly became Gentile in composition. Um so I so the question you're asking the early church asked, and they were Jews who were asking it, what do we do about all these Gentiles that are coming to faith now? And that very issue is addressed and discussed in detail in Acts chapter 15. And Acts chapter 15 addresses that very question that you just asked. Uh, what do we do about this? This we're Jews, and you know, we're Jews, we believe in Jesus as the Messiah, we're we're we're spreading his message. Our fellow Jews are rejecting us and rejecting the message. But all these Gentiles are coming to faith and receiving the Holy Spirit. What do we do about this? Right? So it was an issue, and it was an issue at the very beginning of the church. So um go to Acts chapter 15, and what do they do? Well, they all get together in Jerusalem. Paul, Peter, James, the brother, the brother of Jesus, who's the uh leader of the Jerusalem church, they all get together to decide um what to do because there was a controversy, because some of the Jewish believers at the time were insistent that these new Gentile believers not only had to get circumcised, but they had to submit to the complete law of Moses. In essence, become Jewish. Right? So so here's the question What happens to Gentiles that believe in Jesus now, the Messiah? Do they have to become Jews? That was the question that was on the table. And Acts chapter 15 talks about it in detail. All the apostles get together because there's a big division. Some are saying, no, no, these people have come to faith as Gentiles, they receive the Holy Spirit, they are part of the kingdom of God just like us. We're not gonna impose the yoke of Judaism on them, you know. So there were people that were saying that. There were Jewish Christians that were saying, no, you got to get circumcised, and you now have to follow all the Mosaic law. So the apostles get together, pray about it, and they seek, it says they seek the Holy Spirit. They seek what the Lord's will is on this issue. So what do they decide? What do they conclude? Well, it's recorded for us in Acts chapter 15. That's great. We can just go read it. You know, we don't have to guess, we can just go read it. Um, and what they say is that um you are uh you are uh part of the kingdom just like us. You do not have to be circumcised, you don't have to follow the law of Moses. Um but you have to abstain from certain behavior that would violate community guidelines, like um, you know, food sacrifice to idols, which you know seems kind of you know ancient and weird to us. Like we don't really deal with that kind of an issue. But there was also the uh the mandate of sexual purity, living a sexually pure life, you know. So there were certain um moral guidelines, I guess, laid upon these new believers, but they sure weren't circumcised and they sure weren't brought in to the Mosaic covenant, and they sure weren't Jews. But they also didn't say that the old covenant is gone. They said, you know, they confirmed that there is a new relationship open to humanity, including Gentiles. And these are Jews, by the way, saying this. Right. Okay. These are Jews, by the way, saying this. And that uh if you're a Jew and you come to faith in Christ, you're still a Jew. You don't become un Jewish. But if you come to faith in Christ, you're a Christian. You are a member of the kingdom of God through a new covenant in his blood, through a new covenant that Jeremiah talks about in Jeremiah 31. So the whole idea of a new covenant is originated in the Olga. Um, so that's what Acts chapter 15 lays out, and I think that's great advice for us today. And um and I'm glad that it is laid out so clearly because it can get confusing, you know. Uh how does God have these two ways? What is the deal with his covenant with the Jewish people? And now there's a new covenant. Does that mean, doesn't the new mean it got rid of the old? Isn't the new better than the old? You know, so there's all these kind of questions I think that come up that I've had, I know I've had in my life throughout my life as a Christian. And I've tried to bring some clarity to those issues in this book.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

That's that's fantastic. And I do know Paul wrote a whole chapter, I think it's Romans 19, I could be wrong, where he wrote to his Jewish brothers saying that he'd rather lose his own soul. He'd Paul would rather give up his salvation if the Jews were all saved.

SPEAKER_04 31:40

That's exactly right. That's exactly what he said. Now that's a big thing to say, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:46

But you're right. That is exactly what he said. And in and you're right also, um, that was it's in the book of Romans. But um it's actually three chapters in the book of Romans. Romans is actually 15 chapters long. Yeah. Uh so uh Romans chapter 9, 10, and 11. We're talking three chapters of the book of Romans. That's 20% of the whole book, you know, uh, is all about Israel and the Jewish people and what's the deal? And like you said, he said, I wish that I were cut off from Christ and accursed. I would rather that be true that all my brethren come to faith. Uh, he says that in Romans 9 through 11. He also says in uh Romans 9 that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Yeah. And he's not saying that about us. He's saying that about the Jewish people, and he's speaking specifically about the uh calling and gift that God made to the Jewish people through Abraham, and that's the gift and calling he said that is irrevocable. In other words, God doesn't change his mind and does not break promise ever. Even if we are faithless, he remains faithful. So uh Paul says that um in Romans 11 that it is actually the Jewish rejection of Jesus that opened up the new covenant to be available for the entire world. Uh he explains it this way: He says, their rejection led to your salvation. And he and then in Romans 11, he gives an analogy. He said, Because of their unbelief, they were broken off. He gives the analogy of a tree, an olive tree growing. And he said, Because of their unbelief, God broke them off to make space for you. You're a wild branch from another tree that doesn't belong, but God crafted you into his tree, to his story. And later, after the fullness of Gentiles has come in, he is able to graft those natural branches back in, which he will do. Yeah. And he says that the mystery is that we as Gentiles were disobedient, but now we're obedient. The Jews were obedient, but then became disobedient. So that, and what's the outcome? In Romans chapter 11, it says, so that God can have mercy on everybody. And in the end, he says that all Israel will be saved. That's what the Apostle Paul says in Romans chapter 11. After talking about this issue for three chapters in the book of Romans, the most detailed theological treatise we have of the Christian faith in the New Testament. Um, because a lot of the um you know, a lot of the epistles were written to specific churches that were having problems, and they were written to address specific problems. Romans is one of those universal books that's written for the entire church, and if you read it, it lays out the gospel in detail, right? It's a full, complete layout. Well, 20% of that book deals with what about Israel? What about the Jews? And that's the whole deal. The whole deal is that God in his mystery has made salvation available to all, including Gentiles now, and that ultimately, in the end, all Israel will be saved. So that's kind of my understanding. I know that's a bit controversial. Some people may not agree with me on that, but I feel quite strong in my position, and I feel it's biblically uh quite strong. So somebody would have to explain to me how God made a covenant with Abraham and how now we're part of it, but the Jewish people who we originally made it to aren't. And show me some uh solid biblical evidence that that's the case, because I can't find any.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Yeah, I I don't think it's controversial. I mean, maybe it is, but that's how I believe as well, and that's how I've always believed, that's how I've always read it. Yeah. And in the end, God's people are gonna be saved. That's right. Because of his mercy, because it is he's a just God. He keeps his promises.

SPEAKER_04 36:45

He keeps his promises. Yeah. And um, you know, um, so um, you know, that that was one of the one of the um things you talked about was the Matthew quote about his blood be upon us. The other one is kind of like it, but not quite the same. I think it's this idea that has in history it's been true, and maybe some Christians have it today. The idea that um the Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people or the promised people, that that now has transferred to us as Christians or the church, that the church has now somehow some has now somehow become uh the new Israel. You know what I mean? Like the church has replaced Israel as the as the chosen people. Um so it's kind of related to that other issue, but not quite the same. Um and I think um that's another misconception, but you and I have already talked about it, you know, that uh we have been kind of grafted into Israel's story, you know, and so a proper understanding is not replacement, it's graciously inclusion, I guess is how I would phrase it. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Yes, yes. So how do how does a Gentile like myself, I I because I'm a Christian and I have the love of God, I don't have any animosity or don't treat anybody any differently. Do you think that there are Christians who treat Jews differently because of the misconceptions? And and how do we how do we fix that?

SPEAKER_04 38:25

Well, I know it's historically been true, so it must be true. You know, although uh the other thing too, I mean, I have to say is that uh that it's been true at at different times in different epochs of history. Uh you know, when when Christianity was a the official religion of the Roman Empire, that was a much different relationship between Judaism and Christianity versus uh modern day, you know. Um but um so that so that you know that relationship definitely has changed and evolved over time. Um but so I'm sorry, your question again?

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Uh you know, I I don't know if there's so I know there's like stuff going on in Israel right now with Palestine and Israel and a lot of Christians were saying that we shouldn't protect or help Israel. They were kind of coming against us Israel. So I you know, and I think that goes back to the misconceptions you talked about. How do how do we reconcile that? How do we deal with that as Gentiles? How do we how are we supposed to treat the Jewish people?

SPEAKER_04 39:45

Well, I think, you know, again, uh I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for all Christians, but uh I can only um kind of speak to the conclusions I've come to. And um, you know, the the the first I would say is that um, you know, to to recognize that to support the Jewish people, to affirm and what my book talks about is three pillars, you know, of that we we have to uh have a relationship built on mutual respect, but that respect has to rest on something. So um I think what we could make a distinction that honoring the Jewish people and what connects us to the Jewish people doesn't mean that we have to agree with every political decision that is made by the Israeli government, which is secular and not religious in nature. Just like you and me, Mark, are Americans. I'm an American, you're an American. I don't agree with everything our government does. I don't agree with every decision our government makes. I don't even know anything about your politics. You don't know anything about my politics. But um being an American means I can support Americans, I can support what's good for America and want America to succeed. Um, but it doesn't mean that I agree with every decision that is made by the American government, um, which is secular and certainly doesn't speak for God in any way. Right. So I think that that's a distinction that's important, at least for me, to make, is that the Israeli government isn't Judaism. The Israeli government isn't the Jewish people. Um, the Israeli government is representing what's best for the nation of Israel as a secular government. Um sometimes I think what they I support what they do, and sometimes I don't. Um, and I think that's okay. I don't think that anybody should be forced into thinking they have to support 100% any secular government. That would be nonsensical, wouldn't it? Right, right. Yeah. But as a Christian, to affirm that the Jewish people are God's chosen people, that he has had a unique covenant relationship with them throughout history, and that there is a redemptive purpose for that relationship that included the uh human genealogy of Jesus Christ Himself, who came from the Jews, and that we are profoundly connected to that in a spiritual way, and that we are cousins and we have a family bond through Abraham, we can affirm all that as Christians. And we should affirm all of that as Christians. But we can definitely make a distinction between that and the secular Israeli government that has its own agenda that may not be always ours or even America's. Um so that's kind of how I've come to terms with that question. It's not an easy one, Mark, but I think it's it's also very, you know, it's also a really important question, you know. Um does that help at all? Or does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that was a great answer. We could probably talk about this all night because I I I I really love this kind of stuff. But we're bumping up against time a little bit. Other times banging on our door. Yes. There's a there's a question I ask every man that comes on the podcast.

SPEAKER_05 43:38

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

1 Samuel 22, David was in the cave of Dulam, running away from Saul. While he was in that cave, men of the kingdom were disgruntled, disheartened, discouraged. They came to David. David inspired, led these men. They ended up becoming David's mighty man when David became king, first over Judah, and then Over Israel. Modern day, you got a bunch of disgruntled, disheartened, discouraged men in front of you looking for guidance, leadership, direction, inspiration, whatever. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_04 44:15

I would say first and foremost is personally draw strength from God alone. Um and we can only lead is uh strong, you know, we can only be as good of leaders as we have strength to lead. And um we're all flawed, weak, and uh, you know, we all fail. So if we're trusting in our own strength and our own abilities and our own wisdom, we will fail. Um, so what I would encourage everyone to do is to um, and I have to do this myself, and I'm not uh I'm getting better at, I guess I would say, as I've gotten older, is um I really put a high priority on prayer. Um prayer is where power comes from. Uh prayer is prayer is the ability to communicate with the Almighty creator of the universe as a child to a father. I mean, let that sink in. I'm a grandfather. I'm a father of three now, I'm a grandpa. My little granddaughter's three. I love her more than my own life. When there's nothing I wouldn't do for her, she wants to hop up on my lap. I just would do anything for her. She's got my attention no matter what. Well, the God of the universe is available to us on a much more profound level than that. His care for us eclipses any human care that you could have for any of your own children. His love for you is so beyond that that you can't imagine. And he invites us to speak with him and talk with him at any moment, at any time, to get wisdom, to get power, to help with troubles, to just cry out when we're discouraged. And that renewing power that we need as men to stand up, step up, and be more and lead, whether it's in our family, our community, if we are not tapped into the power of God, we have nothing.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

We have nothing. But with Him, miracles happen. You know, miracles happen.

SPEAKER_04 46:47

You know, if you read the the the book of Acts, you know, they were gathering and praying. All these miracles were happening, things were happening. Well, that's because people were praying, and God was answering those prayers, you know. He's like a father. I think he loves to just answer our prayers, but ask not, you receive not, you know. So that idea uh transformed my spiritual life, my prayer life, that if I'm capable of having that much love and compassion for my little granddaughter and would do anything she asks of me without hesitation.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

Uh how can I tap into that on a divine love mark? And what would that look like? And what kind of man would I be? Wow.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Man, love that answer. Probably one of my favorite of all time. I you're the first person who said pray. That's the whole thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:48

That's everything. Any problem you're having in life, you need to pray because you can't figure it out. And I don't mean you like I'm trying to insult you. Right, right, right. I'm 64. I've had all kinds of problems in my life. And you know, we could have a whole show on weights problems, you know. Uh, so I'm not the perfect person by any means. I've been through the fire and I've been through the trials, you know. Um, but we don't have the wisdom, the strength, the power to handle life. We do not. And it's the humble person that can admit that, that can start to tap into that power. And um, you know, God resists the proud. And just the act of getting on your knees and pray is an act of humility, is it not? I mean, yeah, that that is in and of itself is an act of humility. So uh I would just say whatever uh goal you have you think you can't achieve, whatever problem you have you can't fix, whatever obstacles in your way that you can't figure out, pray about and watch it go away and move on to the next one, and then move on to the next one, and then move on to the next one. Just keep getting these things out of my way. Don't go on the merry-go round. Same problem.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

I'm dealing with the same problem, I'm never getting over it, I'm never getting victim. Pray about it, get over it, go to the next level, get over that, go to the next level.

SPEAKER_05 49:26

It all happens in prayer. Love it. It's all about prayer.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

Awesome. Wade, where can uh guys connect with you? I know they can get your book from your website.

SPEAKER_04 49:41

Yeah, my website, and here's a copy of my book, Yeah. The affirmation of reconciliation between Jews and Christians. Um, the best play, the best place to reach me is uh Mark my website. And it's the affirmation of reconciliation.com. Again, that's theaffirmation of reconciliation.com. There's information about the book, there's information about me, a bio about my life. There's also a bibliography that you can go through and read all the different people that have influenced me, that I've studied, scholars, theologians, and uh on this issue. So go to the website. You can also connect with me, you can shoot me a message, you can join our community. Um, go to the website, the affirmation of reconciliation.com. And and Marcus, it's been such a joy and a privilege to be with you. I really appreciate the invite.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

Yeah, it was a pleasure having you on. And I I got a feeling we could have gone down many different trails. So maybe we'll have another conversation again pretty soon.

SPEAKER_04 50:49

I would love it. You know, anything that comes up, I'd love to talk to you. And um, like I said, uh I I'm super grateful for the opportunity. And it was a it's an honor to meet you, and I'm I'm glad to talk to you and your audience.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

You too. God bless you. God bless you. Take care. The same God who lifts weight off of a man's shoulders also calls him to pick up responsibility. Wade reminded us that reconciliation isn't abstract theology. It's the work of men who refuse to look away from truth, history, or the wounds in our spiritual family. If this episode starts something and you share with another man who needs to hear it, make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss what's coming next. I'd love to tell you what Value Monday is gonna be about, but I'm waiting on the Holy Spirit for that. I will tell you that next week's interview is going to be with a man named Eric Stevens. He has a very powerful testimony, and I think you're gonna love this one. It's about being rooted in Christ, and it's something that all of us men need to be is rooted in Christ. He's got a powerful testimony, and he's a great man. You're gonna you're gonna love this one. So make sure you're subscribed. If you're not subscribed, subscribe whatever platform you're listening on. If you're listening on a YouTube, please leave me a comment below. Let me know what you think of the episode. If you have any ideas, any guest ideas, anybody you'd like to see come on the podcast, anything you'd like me to address on a solo episode, all the things. And please, if you enjoy the show, just do me one favor. My birthday's coming up, so do this for my birthday. Go on Apple Podcast and leave me a rating and review. I'm not going to be the host that says leave me a five star review. I would love a five star review, but only put that on there if you mean it. But please, review the podcast because it just helps get this message out to other men. With that, stay strong, stay valiant, keep forwarding your path, and be blessed.