When Faith Breaks: Grief, Loss & Holding Onto God | James Moffitt

What happens when your faith is tested by the kind of loss most people hope they'll never face?

Mark sits down with James Moffitt, host of Father's Refuge, to talk about grief, suffering, masculinity, fatherhood, and what it means to keep holding onto God after losing two children.

James shares the devastating story of losing his daughter after a long cancer battle, losing his son years later, wrestling with anger toward God, and learning how grief reshaped his understanding of faith, leadership, and emotional strength. 

This is not a conversation filled with easy answers.

It's a raw, honest look at what happens when tragedy shakes the foundation of your faith.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Losing a child and surviving grief
 • Can tragedy destroy your faith?
 • Christian masculinity and emotional intelligence
 • Why grieving men need refuge, not performance
 • Faith during suffering and unanswered questions
 • Leadership, family, and healing after loss
 • Creating safe spaces where men can open up

If you're navigating grief, questioning your faith, or looking for honest conversations about Christian manhood, suffering, and spiritual resilience, this conversation is for you.

Connect with James

https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/fathers-refuge/id1833471265
https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/abcs-of-parenting-adult-children/id1693026736
https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/liberty-and-gun-rights-podcast/id1826362229

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

We talk we talk about faith, believing in God. But did you have a moment where is there really a God? And and how did you how did you come to terms with that?

SPEAKER_01 0:10

If I were to sit here and say it didn't affect my faith, I'd be lying because it did. It it it rattled our cages, you know.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

You wouldn't be human if it didn't.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Right, exactly. Uh well there, you know, I talked to my pastor, and you know, one of the things he told me, you know, five or six years after the fact, he said, one of the things that I admire uh about you is that you didn't allow it to destroy your faith.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Welcome to the Valiant Forge Podcast, where we help men overcome life of doubt, show up better in the world, and become a valiant force of God. This is a place to look at practical credits that help you on life's journey to help you become a man of God's colour. Are you ready to overcome the doubt and fulfill your property by beauty? If so, let's go.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Welcome back to the Valiant Forge Podcast. Today I had a conversation with James Moffat. He is the host of three different podcasts. One is called ABCs of Adult Parenting, another one is called The Father's Refuge, and a third one called Liberty and Gun Rights. We have a really deep conversation around all three podcasts, but we really get into grief and loss. The Father's Refuge is a podcast that he runs that was birthed out of the loss of two children. Yes. James has lost two children of his own. And we really get into the weeds on dealing with grief and loss from a faith perspective. And it's it's really powerful. James James is a very open guy. Like after we've did this interview, him and I have become very good friends. We we talk on a daily basis almost now. So, you know, we even started another podcast, but you know, maybe I'll get into that at the end of the episode or I'll link it in the show notes. But yeah, it's a really great conversation, but it's we really get deep into loss and grief and ways to deal deal with that from a faith perspective. If you're trying to learn how you can walk through suffering without walking alone, this conversation is for you. Here's my conversation with James Moff. James, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Hey, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

So is this your first or second guest or interview now that you've done where you're on another podcast?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah, I think it's I think it's the second one.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Nice. I know you I know you've been podcasting for a long time, but it's a little different being on the other side of the mic.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yes. Yes, it is. It's I don't know, it's it's different, uh, but it's kind of it's kind of freeing in in that I don't have to I don't have to orchestrate anything or come up with questions or all of the post-production stuff. So so it makes it a little more fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

So do you have you have two podcasts or three? Three. Three. And what are they?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Three is enough. One is so far. Yeah. I started out with ABC's The Parenting Adult Children podcast. Uh, and it's a uh it's a in support of my parenting adult children Facebook group, which is a private support group for parents on Facebook. And uh we started out in 2015, back when our kids were two of our children were still teenagers, a boy and a girl, and they were giving us a run for our money, and I desperately didn't want to wind up in prison or get a boyfriend or anything. And so I told my wife, I said, Hey, you know, we were on Facebook and social media, and I said, Hey, let's start a Facebook support group for our parents to see if anybody else is dealing with this stuff. And uh lo and behold, yes, there are. And uh we started out with 10 members, and I think today we have like 1.4,000 members. And uh I also have a subreddit on Reddit called uh Parenting Adult Children, and that's just kind of blown up, taking a life of its own. And uh so the podcast is there to provide uh encouragement and support for parents of adult children. And then I have uh Liberty and Gun Rights, which is a Second Amendment gun safety, gun education sort of um podcast that that's kind of part of my life. I've been doing that for a long time. And uh then recently after having a doctor on uh my parenting podcast, we talked off-air about uh you know my losing two children and and uh Jessica Ann back in 2001 and my son Jeremy in uh 2025. And she was like, you know, James, you have a lot to share, and you really ought to you ought to crank up a podcast for that. And I'd already had Father's Refuge, which is my third podcast, in mind, and I'd always wanted to breathe some life into that, and I just never could get it off the ground, uh virtue, not not virtually speaking, but in real life, you know, support groups or whatever. Um, and so I thought, well, this is perfect, you know, podcasts will be perfect for that, and so it's it's like two months old, and I've already gotten 500 downloads as of today for Buzz Sprout. Yeah, I was like, I got that email from Buzzsprout, I was like, what? Because I don't think I had but I don't know, 125 downloads. Uh, because it's so new, right? And um, so anyway, um, yeah, I've gotten I've had close to 20 episodes on that so far. Had some really good episodes and and uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

So can you can you walk me through what it was like a little bit to lose two children? I think maybe tell the story of how that came about.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Well, uh August the 5th of 2001 is when my daughter Jessica passed away, and we went through a 14-month treatment journey at MUSC Children's Hospital in downtown Charleston, South Carolina. And uh she had a baseball-sized tumor uh in her head, and part of it was wrapped around her brainstem. So when when they did emergency surgery back in uh 2001, uh 2000, it was at the end of 2000, I guess, whatever 14 months is, right? Um the surgeons came out and gave us no hope. They said we were able to get a lot of it out, but because part of it's wrapped around her brain stem, you know, it's pretty much a death sentence. That's not what they said, but they basically gave her no hope and said if she lasted 12 months, uh that we would be very lucky. And so she lasted 14 months, and she uh was 10 years old, and she would have been 11 years old on September the 11th when the World Trade Center came down. Well, she passed away on August the 5th. So when September 11th rolls around, it has a dual meaning for us. Um it's something I wouldn't w wish on my worst enemy. Uh watching your one of your children uh get progressively worse and you know, dealing with the you know, six stages of grief and and anger and denial and anxiety and uh bargaining with God and all these things. Um at the outset we had a lot of hope. You know, we we our hope was was that Jesus would heal her on this side of heaven, right? And and we desperately clung to the fact that Jessica belonged to us. And the realization over a period of time came to me that probably to my wife too, that our children don't belong to us, they belong to God, right? They're they are with us for a season, right? And God blesses us with the the privilege and the honor uh to to to raise those children, right? And um that was a hard thing for me to swallow when I came to the realization that she's not mine, she doesn't belong to me, she belongs to God, and it's it's God's whatever God's will is to do with her life is God's will, not my will, right? And so uh if you listen to you probably haven't listened to any of the uh episodes on Father's Refuge yet, but uh one of the episodes is called Crazy Man uh on the side of the road or something like that. And I I spent a lot of time uh with a beer in one hand and a fist in the air, you know, with the other, right uh angry with God and asking him why he was taking her, that if anybody needed to die, it would be me because I was the worm and she wasn't, and all of these things. And um there was a um we had a parent support group that we went to at MUSC. I forget what it was called, but uh parents with children that were, you know, uh going through the uh treatment journey were with us, and uh of course after she passed away, we couldn't go to that support group anymore. I guess we could have, but I don't think any of the parents would have wanted us there, right? Because we'd have been a kind of a stark reminder of what option B might be for them, right? Yeah. So so there's a song that Casting Crowns came out with, I think back in 2017 or something like that. It's called Praise You in the Storm. Yeah. And if you're familiar with that song, it talks about the st a storm, right? Right. And and I, in my mind's eye, in my uh spirit, I kind of latched onto that song. And I kind of latched on to the symbolism of the storm and and related it, related it, related it to what we were going through. And in initially, when she first got sick and she started her treatments, um the storm was far off. We were on the beach, the storm was far off, it was a thunderstorm, lots of lightning, lots of thunder, blah, blah, blah. And so we knew it was there, we saw it coming, and um it got as time went on, it got closer and closer, right? And it got to the point where we were like right in the middle of it, you know, driving rain, wind, lightning, looking for God and all of that. Why me, Lord?

SPEAKER_04 11:17

You know, um so yeah, it was uh it was uh pretty deep.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

I guess you could say uh if anything in my life shook my like the foundation of my faith, that was it. Right. Hear you hear people all around us in the world, you know, when you you watch NBC Nightly News, you watch uh any kind of news station, there's all this shootings and and uh people dying all around the world and people dying of hunger, of malaria, all different types of things that affect mankind, right? And you hear people all the time go, well, if there's a God, why does he allow that to happen?

SPEAKER_03 12:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Why does God allow rape and incest to happen? Why does God allow school shootings to happen? Why does God allow this or that, right? And uh and so I I was there, right? I'm like, why why are you doing this? Why me? Why her? And uh uh it it could very easily have destroyed our faith and who God was, right? And it and if I were to sit here and say it didn't affect my faith, I'd be lying because it did. It it it rattled our cages, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

You wouldn't you wouldn't be human if it didn't.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Right, exactly. Uh well there, you know, I talked to my pastor, and you know, one of the things he told me, you know, five or six years after the fact, he said, one of the things that I admire uh about you is that you didn't allow it to destroy your faith. I just kind of received it and said, Okay. But anyway.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Yeah, you you actually answered a lot of the questions that I had for you around that.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Which is, you know, how you struggled with your faith during that time. Did you have a moment where you're we talk we talk about faith, believing in God, but did you have a moment where is there really a God? And and how did you how did you come to terms with that?

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Um I don't think I ever doubted that there was a God. I got saved when I was 18 years old, back in 79 or 80. And so I had a pretty strong foundation of who's who God's identity is and and is in my life, right? That's not to say I'm a perfect Christian or that I've got it all figured out. Uh and I think that I think we all go through the a period of sanctification from the time that we're born again until the time that we come face to face with our Creator, right? Uh, but but hopefully we are being slowly but surely made into his image. And and so thankfully, I did have a pretty firm foundation, right? And I had a a I spent I've spent a lot of time studying the Bible, studying the you know, Greek, Hebrew, and Latin languages, and and you know, I've I've been blessed to go to churches and preach the word and and spent ten years in street ministry, and have, you know, I spent 45 days in a street rescue mission in Houston, Texas when I was in my early 20s. God had to kind of get us get my attention back then, which he did. And uh because of that, I wound up doing street ministry for 10 years, and so uh yeah, I think I don't I don't I don't think I don't think I ever questioned that there was a God.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

That's awesome. You you are the epitome of the wise man who built this house upon the rock. Because you talked about the strip the firm foundation, and you've gone through stuff that many people wouldn't be able to handle. I mean, honestly, I've never lost a child, and the thought just seeing one of my kids sick tears me up. The thought of losing a child it it would definitely shake my faith. Like I'm I'm firm enough now that I w I wouldn't doubt that God was in the storm, but I I can't imagine I I know the song Praise You in This Storm. I I know all the Bible stories, the Shunammite woman after her son died, it is well, having that that strong faith. It's one thing to hear the stories, but it's another thing to walk through it. And you you've had the loss of two children, correct?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yes.

unknown 16:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yeah, I just I just lost a 38-year-old son uh in uh the end of uh January this year. And he and I were not real close, which in some ways is kind of a blessing, but he was my first uh child that was born uh uh in my during my first marriage. Uh we were in Houston, Texas, and and uh but anyway, uh, he passed away.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Has has your view of God changed throughout the years after seeing the loss and then coming through it since your early days of street ministry and stuff?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

I think that what has happened is is that my my uh perspective and my vision of who God is has changed a little bit. Maybe I would say that it's matured some, right? Uh and and I guess I would say that um I have a a keener understanding of uh the um um what's the word? Omnipresence or omniscience. Yeah, uh uh of that. I think I have a sharper view of that. Uh uh and uh do I ever question or or wonder? Do I have questions? Yeah, when I get to heaven, I got all kinds of questions. Right? Um I'm gonna ask Jesus to if I can pull up a seat and ask him some questions, and I'm sure he'll let me. And I'm sure he I'm sure he already knows what those questions are. Yeah. But but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

Yeah, and I I know I know you know the verse, all things work together for good. Through this, you started a podcast, you're helping other parents deal with the loss of grief. So you feel like that's kind of a a sense of purpose for you now?

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Oh absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, loss and loss and gr you know, the circle of life is is birth and death, right? Uh somebody told me not long ago that we don't ever get out of this alive. You know, we're all gonna we're all gonna come to the end of our chapter, right? And hopefully, uh, prayerfully it'll be the beginning of eternity, you know, uh in heaven, right? Uh and you know, um I would say that that I, you know, sometimes wonder about that. You know the fun finality of death, you know, the end of the mortal being and the beginning of the spiritual being in heaven. And it's like I mean, you may know somebody, but I don't know anybody that's died and gone to heaven and come back and said, Oh, this is a real thing, right? And you know, but would that mean that we would believe them? Would we believe in heaven that much more? Uh I don't know. We're kind of fickle in some ways. So, but anyway.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

You think did grief challenge your sense of masculinity in any way as a man when you were going through the grief and the loss and the struggle?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Um, it it helped me to recognize uh uh the importance of emotional intelligence. You know, uh men um men are not uh super emotional people, right? Right. We tend to suppress uh painful emotions, right? And I was I'm a child of the 70s and 80s, and you know, back then uh men were told that men don't cry. Uh my father told me, Don't cry, men don't cry. You know, if you want to cry, I'll give you something to cry about. You know, what it didn't make a whole lot of sense.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

But anyway so many times.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Oh yeah. And you like you, you you you make of who make yourself of who you you like pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you can become who you want to be. It's like it's like you're in the you're the master of your own universe, and if you if you want to be a good person and you want to do positive things in life, then that's gonna be uh because of what you do, you know. And and sadly enough, that's not true. Um or not necessarily, I wouldn't why do I say sadly enough? I mean, that's not reality. Uh but um no, it didn't it didn't challenge my masculinity, but it highlighted um the um weak the weakness of the male species, right? As far as emotional intelligence and you know handling uh your emotions uh constructively, uh maturely. So it makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

What what did you learn through that? Is it okay to cry? Is it okay to share your emotions with your wife or you know a a friend?

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Is it okay to cry? I think that's it's a I think that's a natural release that God placed within us.

unknown 21:40

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

I'm being facetious when I'm asking these questions.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Sure. It's a it's a certainly a pressure valve that that we all need, men included. Uh uh I think the female species is a little more in tune with uh their emotions and and and are more uh They demonstrate those emotions much more uh visibly than we do. Like, you know, if I'm gonna cry, I'm not necessarily gonna do it in front of my wife. I'm gonna go for a walk, right? Or I'm gonna get in the car and go for a drive. Or, you know, as I walked through the aftermath of Jessica's passing, you know, I'd be driving down the road and a song would come on, you know, that I knew she liked. There were triggers that caused me to cry, right? And and those were fast and furious in the beginning, right? Twenty-four years later, like I couldn't have had this conversation back in 2005 or 2010 even, you know, only because there's been such a long period of time uh am I able to sit here dry eyed talking about this stuff, right?

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Yeah, it it so would you say the saying that time heals all wounds is accurate?

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Um there's a lot of wisdom to that. And I think that when people tell you to get over it, you don't ever get over grief. You don't ever get over losing a loved one because you love them, they're part of your who you are, they're part of your heart, your mind, your soul, your spirit. And so what time does is it allows you to adapt. It allows you to adapt uh to those triggers and those things that that trigger raw emotion, right? And it helps you to kind of compartmentalize, which is what us guys are good at. Helps us to compartmentalize um that box of stuff, you know, the emotions and the triggers and all of that. We kind of close the lid on it and set it over in a corner. We know it's there, we know it's not going away, and the a trigger will come along, you know, at five o'clock in the evening when you're driving home, that's gonna pop the lid on that thing, right? And at that point you'll have to deal with it, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Um and um so with the name Father's Refuge, do you think grieving men need refuge more than they need advice?

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Uh I think men need a safe place to to listen and hear stories about this. And I think that they need a they need a safe place where they can um share their own story. Right. I think I think you know, I like the word refuge because it's a it's a uh kind of like a a strong tower or a or a fortress that they can come into, right? And and feel free to um explore those emotions and come to grips with them, come to the reality of come to grips with the reality that they're in, wherever they're at in their journey.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Yeah. Have you seen have you seen anything change with m I know you've just started this podcast, but have you like had people reach out to you and say, Thank you for doing this, you've helped me in this area or that area. No, not yet. Not yet. No. So obviously that'll help gain traction.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah. Yeah. I I'm hoping that I can get some engagement. Um But you you know uh all about SEO and engagement and and all of that, all that stuff background that we've we fuss about and fiddle with and try to to uh game the system so that we can get our work the message out and get people to listen to all of our all of the episode and not just the first five minutes or five first fifty seconds, you know. But right. That's the goal, that's the hope.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

Yeah. Throughout your time as a as a Christian, not just on the podcast, but I'm assuming, you know, you've been in men's groups or stuff like that, you've gone to church most of your life. Have you seen a a space where men can open up and have you seen anything happen where a man has this space to to not hold back anymore and just be able to open up and share his heart with other brothers? Have you seen happen?

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, uh, you know, the church we go to right now, they have life groups. And uh uh the pastor has one on Wednesday morning at I don't know, seven o'clock in the morning, early, where men can come and have uh, you know, a sausage biscuit and a coffee or orange juice or whatever, and they sit in a circle and he'll start it out and we'll go around the circle and people will we'll talk about what's going on in their lives, you know, prayer requests, struggles, you know, what have you. And and uh I think that's important, you know. And I know the women have the same thing, you know, they have a support group as well.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Yeah, it's it's a lot easier for women to open up than it is for men. Right. Like I lead a men's group at my church, and I've noticed if I have a group of twenty, I'm gonna get very few to speak. But if I have a group of five and I can just go around the table asking questions, if I get one man to open up, it seems to open up the floodgates.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

That's what I believe will will happen with your podcast. Once it starts to do that. How how have you go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

I was gonna I was gonna say uh with regards to that dynamic, I think that I think men uh um they kind of wall off that kind of stuff. They kind of bury it and they keep it uh enclosed. Uh uh. Nobody wants to admit that they're weak. Nobody wants to admit from a man's perspective. Nobody wants to admit that they they're struggling with emotions, you know. Nobody wants to admit that they, you know, in their in their quiet space or their quiet time, or, you know, uh, hey, I'm in the storm and it makes me cry, it makes me angry, it makes me cuss God, it makes me drink beer or jack and coke, or you know, act out in ways that are not healthy or not seen as uh Christ-like, right? Kind of embarrassing, you know, but um I think that uh inviting people to uh to I want to s I don't want to really say church, to be honest with you. I want to say that that when you invite men into a a safe place, right, whether that be church or something else, it doesn't really, you know, the the building is just a building, but the community you want to build is um amongst men, believers or non-believers, right? And so, and so you want to provide a a safe place, safe refuge, safe community to where they feel comfortable, where they don't feel threatened, where they feel uh that they have the opportunity to hear other people tell their life stories and their struggles, and that that alone will encourage them to open up some.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Yeah. What does leadership look like now for you compared to who you were before your loss and who you are now? Is it any different?

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Um, I would say that, you know, I sp I spent 10 years in street ministry, uh, and I um you know spent some time with uh well yeah, street ministry. Uh when I was younger in my 20s and 30s, I was more active in frontline uh active uh ministry. And uh I guess after Jessica passed away, uh, we went through a grieving period and went through a time of healing. Uh and I would say that uh thinking about leadership, uh I think the most I think the most important leadership role or position that a man has is his family. Right? That's our that's our that's our number one role, and that's our number one calling. And if we can't lead our family, uh if we can't be the type of father that our children desperately need in this world, then everything else we do on the outside of the family is kind of silly, right? It's really kind of devalued in my eyes, right? And that that that doesn't that doesn't mean to say that that a man uh that has a leadership role out in the community can't be effective in that. Uh but I think that I think that our our effect effectiveness and our strength in that ministry through God is also rooted in in, I think the roots go back to our family, right? I think that's where that's where our uh faith and our you know building blocks for our kids to teach them the faith, uh the faith that we have in God and who God is and why it's important, why is church important, why is prayer important. What does the word of God really say about this, that, and another? Uh why is it important that dad uh treat mom with respect and and be in ministry to her, right? And to be her leader and her covering. That makes sense, right? And so, and so my leadership in my family after Jessica passed away, uh, was probably, you know, I was in the storm and and I probably didn't pay as much of attention to that role as I should have.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

And uh so what did it look like you and your wife going through that grief together? Were you her support system and she yours?

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Actually no. Because we didn't really we didn't know anything about grief or loss or how to handle it. And back in 2001, nobody encouraged us to go see a grief counselor, nobody encouraged us to get you know therapists for our children or anything like that. So so we just kind of dealt with it, you know, the best way we knew how. Right? And just kind of sitting there watching this stuff swirl around us, you know, wondering where was our family gonna go, you know, what we were gonna look like on the other side. And I in retrospect, you know, hindsight's 2020, we can look back and see where uh losing Jessica really affected my other children, you know, and and uh still affects them to this day in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

Let's let's shift gears for us for a little bit and talk about your other podcast, parenting adult children. Sorry. No, you're parenting adult children. Yeah, so when I when I first heard about parenting adult children, I was a little confused. Right because I I as a as a 48-year-old man, I was an adult child. That's kind of how this whole thing started. I was immature as a man and I was in my late 40s. And I don't know if that's exactly what you're talking about, but I see a lot of adult children who need parenting.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

We call them manchilds. Yeah. A man child. Um, so uh in 2015, my wife and I had two children that were still teenagers, and they were giving me a run for my money, and I was like, you know, I was doing everything I could to not kill them and wind up in prison with a boyfriend, right? And um I told my wife, I said, I wonder if there are other parents dealing with this crap. And so I said, let's we're on well, I was already on Facebook, and I said, let's just start a Facebook support group, you know, for you know, I think it's called Tough Love. It's kind of it's it's its title and its mission uh has kind of shifted a little bit over the last 10 years. But um, yeah, uh it's uh parenting adult children is for parents for encouragement and support of parents that that have children that are the ages of 18 to 30. You know, before 18, they're teenagers. You got preteens, you got teenagers. At that point, you're still the parent, right? But once they turn 18 and become an adult, your parent-child relationship is supposed to change. You're supposed to be the mentor. You know, you can still provide financial support. They can still live at home, if they're going to college, not going to college, get a job. And there's like 60 topics that we actually cover. There's all kinds of topics that we cover, and uh what that that swirl around uh the job of raising adult children. And uh the biggest role we have is with adult children is being a mentor and being a support system and uh somebody that can listen instead of dictate. And uh, you know, failure to launch. Uh I'm trying to think of some of the topics that we talk about. Uh boundaries is a big one, self-care is a big one. Uh and so the podcast speaks to parents as well, and and speaks to the importance of parents taking care of their emotional, uh, spiritual, mental, physical self, right? So that so that they, you know, you can't you can't give people water if your cup's empty, right? Right. So it's so it's very important, especially for moms. Moms are typically the primary caregivers, right? I can talk for an hour about this, so stop me at any point.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

Yeah, I I was gonna say I would imagine boundaries. You know, I am an a I am a an adult parent. I have two grown daughters and actually have three grandchildren now. Oh what? And when my my so I got married really young. I was 19 when I got married. My young youngest granddaughter was born when I was forty-two. So I had them call me Pop because I didn't want to be called grandpa at the age of forty-two. It just didn't seem to fit. But my wife and I really struggled in the very beginning with not being the helicopter grandparents, I guess you will.

unknown 37:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

We were giving my my daughter and son-in-law all this advice, and we were we just being honest, we actually parented them more than mentored them. It it took some time to for us to figure that out that through a lot of counseling and you know, discussions with our pastor and our mentors, right? It took time to back off. So I'd imagine boundaries is probably one of the hugest issues. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah, it's a it is it comes up quite a bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

So what how does uh how do you how does a Christian parent an adult child?

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Well, the the I guess the difference in a a uh secular parent versus a faith-based parent is that that you lean upon your relationship with Christ and you you do a lot of praying, you know, and you you uh try to exhibit the freedom of the spirit when you're dealing with your children, right? Uh and you um I guess the hardest thing for parents to do is to let their children live their lives, right? Life is a magnificent teacher, right? We can we can we can tell our children about all our screw-ups, we can be transparent until you know we're purple in the face. And and there's nothing wrong with being transparent with your children and say, hey, look, this is what dad did when he was 23 years old, and this is the mistake I made. This is how it affected my life, affected my life. And if I had not done that, then things would have been better and different for me. But, you know, I thought my parents were idiots and out of touch, you know. And uh I I I think I was about 25 or 26 when I came to the realization that my parents weren't blithering idiots, that they they weren't out of touch, and that that the things that they'd been telling me all those years, there was some truth to that, you know. And yeah, times change, you know, uh people change, uh uh our cultures change to a certain degree, right? Uh things are different now than they were in the 1980s, you know, obviously. Uh, but the core, core beliefs, uh our core beliefs in who God is and our faith in him and how we are to act individually as well as how we are to act towards our family uh is pretty much the same. Hasn't really changed that much.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

Why does it take us so long to figure that out? Because we're thick-headed. Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Yeah, we're thick-headed and stubborn.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

My dad was giving me so much solid advice that I was like, he didn't know what he was talking about. Sure. And about the same time, 26, 27, I should have listened to my dad. He knew what he was talking about.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

And it and as parents, we don't, we want, we want our children to have a better life. Right. We don't want our kids to make the same stupid mistakes we made. And we want to, we want to to throw up uh roadblocks and say, don't go around that barrier and do what I did, because if you do, you see the you see the wreck on the other side of that roadblock. That was me. This is you know one of the most important things, my parents weren't parents of of faith either, but one of the things my parents taught me as a as a child and as a young adult was think before you act. Think before you act. Well, why is that? Why do we need to think? Well, because your actions sometimes come with lifelong consequences. Right. Yeah. Right? Sometimes the consequences are small and manageable, right? And only last a small period of time or a season. And you in in like I said earlier, life is a magnificent teacher, right? Yeah. Your parents can teach you a whole volume of stuff, but you know, our kids, and we don't, and parents don't really want to come to grips with this, but our kids need to learn some lessons you have to learn the hard way, right? You can you can read a book and you can learn about theory and you can learn about processes and you can learn about other people's mistakes, but until you it it doesn't become reality and real to you until you're in those shoes. Yep. Faced with it and going, Oh crap, I seem to remember something about this. And I think that's a and it I think that afflicts all of us, you know.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

Yeah. Well we're we're starting to bump up against time a little bit.

unknown 42:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

There's a question I ask every man that comes on the podcast. In 1 Samuel 22, David ran to the cave of Adulum. And I've read this once, you know, since you have a podcast called The Father's Refuge. The Cave of Adulum for David was a place of refuge. So when David was in that cave, the men of the kingdom became disgruntled, disheartened, discouraged. They came to David while he was in the cave. David inspired and led these men, and eventually they became his mighty men as he took over Judah and then Israel became king of Israel. Modern day, you got a group of disgruntled, disheartened, discouraged men, maybe grieving men, in front of you, looking for direction, guidance, leadership. What would you say to them? Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 43:15

That's a that's a tough question.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

I would um try to find a way to encourage them and find a way to get them to go back to their roots. If that makes sense. I think I think we we're as as men, I think, um I think we're faced with all different types of storms and sizes of storms and intensity of storms. storms and I think I think that as we uh live in those storms we we uh come we become super sensitive to how those storms are actually affecting us right emotionally physically mentally psychologically and and we get we get uh how do you say it um one dimensional instead of three dimensional right we lose we kind of lose lose sight of uh the the the beginning the beginner and the author and finisher of our faith right we being men we like to solve problems right that's how we're wired so while we're in those storms we're looking for ways to solve the storm right to either move the storm out of the way or to help us to walk through the storm and unscathed or without a lot of damage you know whatever whatever our makeup looks like with regards to those storms and I think that I think that a leader will will um kind of help snap those people out of those storms and and and shift their focus where it needs to be the focus the focus doesn't need to be on the storms and the the problems within the focus needs to be on the author and finisher of our faith and who who is God in our lives and what's what's his purpose for our life right and I got to I've got to you know we'll do this on another episode maybe but I have a a story about how God got my attention and I told you I spent I spent 45 days in a a uh street rescue mission and I had my go save go to heaven salvation card I had accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I knew where I was going to go when I died and and so when God got my attention and I wound up at the the the salvation army or the no star of hope mission I kept asking him what why why am I here? Why why me? Because I I already know who you are I know that you died on the cross for my sins and I knew that I needed to ask you for forgiveness of my sin and turn away from my wicked ways you know and and the quick answer which is quite deep actually was well James it's not what you have done it's what you haven't done. And he said I I've I have I have saved you because I have a purpose for your life. Your name is written in the Lamb's book of life because of what I did at the cross and and because of that you can't live your life according to your will but you need to live your life according to my will. And so that's what a leader does is he he helps men to see what God's purpose for their lives is. Right? And which of course obviously you know the first purpose if you're if you're married and you got kids the first purpose for your life is to be a godly man and a godly husband and leader in your family.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

Yeah love that answer I c I I wish we had a little bit more time because now I want to go I want to hear more about that story.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

I don't really know where all that came from I just kind of launched into it call it the Holy Spirit Yeah I'd love to I'd love to tell the story about my 45 days at the Starvo mission for sure that was a wake up call. Go ahead we got a few minutes well I mean you know I I uh I wound up I wound up I'll keep try to keep this short but I I wound up under a bridge in Houston Texas Houston Texas is the third largest city in the United States uh but what caused me to wind up under that bridge with three plastic bags of belongings as a 20 year old 22 year old whatever uh I was working as a security officer at a mall make a long story short I lost my I lost my job at the security uh company at the mall I was actually s sleeping in the security office which I got in trouble for when they found that out they were like yeah you can't do that I lost a girlfriend that I was madly in love with uh her name was Mary Gingrich and uh I her nickname was Miss Piggy and so that was a you know a crush that you know I was crushed when I lost her you know anyway uh so yeah I wound up under a bridge with three plastic bags and a a Christian who owned a a coffee distribution center a little tiny warehouse close to that bridge he saw me and he pulled over and started talking to me he befriended me was nice to me I told him my story I wasn't an alcoholic I wasn't a drug addict I wasn't on the streets because of addiction and he was like well I know this place you know called Star of Hope Mission and would you like to you know I would like to help you and would you like that would you like to come with me on the rest of my coffee route today and I'll take you back to the warehouse. He had a little cot I could sleep on I mowed grass to make money blah blah blah so he took me to the Star of Hope Mission and dropped me off and he had talked to the director of Star of Hope Mission and uh he took me to in front of the Star of Hope Mission and dropped me off with my three plastic bags and I had a pocket full of cash that I had earned and I saw these street people laying in front of the Star of Hope mission on cardboard boxes stinky smelly cursing just you know drunk whatever strung out on drugs and the the first the first thing I told God was I'm better than this I puffed out my little you know middle income white boy uh chest and said you know I'm better than this and so there was a hotel right across the street I forget the name of it anyway it was like a nightly you know it's you know horrible place but it looked like the Taj Mahal next to Star Vote Mission right and so I went over there and I wasted all my money on like one seven or eight days of staying at the hotel and I wound up on a piece of cardboard in front of the Starvo Mission with these these street people that that I felt like I was better right and so uh they the director came out and I finally went in actually I went in I finally went in swallowed my pride went in and uh went to tour the trustees or whoever the the the people that were running the Starvoat mission and said hey my name's James Moffat and and the one of the guys looked up and says we thought you got dropped off like five or six days ago we were wondering what happened to you and I told him and anyway so I I wound up you know um helping you know with feeding the homeless and and I you know they you have to you actually have to uh listen to uh the gospel message before every meal and they have churches that would come in and preach the gospel and they'd sing songs and then they had counselors that would talk to the men right yeah and and uh at some point during that 45 days I asked one of the counselors you know you know I asked God why me Lord why what of what what is it what is it that I've done to deserve this right and in the still quiet voice uh the Holy Spirit I guess uh told me it's not what you've done it's what you haven't done you know you're not an addict you know you're not an alcoholic you're not a drug addict you're not wife beater or you know I wasn't a I wasn't in and out of jail or anything like that my what was my sin why was I there because I was proud it was a sin of pride and when he when he when I learned that my that my name was written in the Lamb's book of life and that God had a had a holy purpose for my life and that included living according to his purpose I was like that was like an epiphany I was like wow are you kidding me really there's more to this than my little salvation card and uh yeah there's a lot more to it way more so anyway I wound up befriending uh one of the one of the uh Johnny Barton was his name he was uh you know I was in my 20s he was in his 40s late 30s he had just gotten out of seminary from uh the hills of Tennessee or whatever we wound up being a roommate at one point and I got involved in street ministry for about 10 years and and uh yeah god god and even to this day I still have a heart for homeless people wow that's awesome yeah yeah we don't have time to get into it but I've I've also been through street ministry and still have a heart for homeless people as well yeah I I appreciate that story I wish we would have led with that's fine no no I have I have I have many stories I'm full of stories after sixty four years I have full stories you d you don't show your age I've I figured you a bit younger well there's an eight year old boy that's been trapped inside my body that every time I look in the mirror he's like dude what's going on here I'm like I don't know here I am here we are yeah yeah I'll have to have you on again if you got so many stories to share for sure we'll have a we'll have another conversation I just just through this conversation we've had so far I know a lot of men are going to be encouraged by it so where where can guys connect with you I know they got your your podcast which we've mentioned uh the best way to get a hold of me would be uh my email address which is james dot moffatmo f f I t at pm.me it's james.moffat at pm dot me yeah and guys guys go listen to james' podcast i I've listened to one or two episodes of the uh adult parenting and jame had James has a lot of insights to share and I know you'll be blessed by his podcast and get the word out for the Father's Refuge Cot the Father's Refuge podcast because I know there are many men out there who are dealing with grief that are scared to open up and I do believe this podcast will help you with that. James thank you very much go ahead one of the things real quick one of the things about father's refuge it's its purpose is sort of morphing a little bit its primary purpose is for is for dads and fathers that are dealing with the treatment journey of their children but but when you talk about loss and grief loss can be loss of a job a career you know it can be loss of a relationship it can be like divorce or separation or you know fill in the blank there's a blank there what is loss you know and so so I want to be inclusive of those other issues in life that causes loss and grief.

SPEAKER_03 55:11

Awesome James thank you very much for coming on thanks for having forward to having you on again okay all right God bless you if this conversation spoke to something you're carrying grief loss pain questions you feel like you haven't been able to say out loud know this you are not walking alone you have other people in your corner God is with you everywhere God is omnipotent we mentioned that in the episode everywhere you go everywhere you look God is right there with you you are not alone and if you feel like you're alone something that I've heard in uh psychological psychology podcasts which I listened to a few of those grief demands a witness and if you're are dealing with grief and loss and you haven't gotten it out you need someone to talk to reach out reach out to a family member reach out to a mentor or find somebody in your church and if you're a man and you're struggling with something and you don't have feel like you have anybody you can talk to there are ways you can engage with me. If you're on YouTube you can comment below I think if you go to my channel my email is in there on the channel if not you can find me there are ways to find me. If you go onto one of the podcast platforms the audio podcast there is a send a text which sends me a fan mail that only I see. If you want to have a conversation we'll we can go back and forth and I can give you uh easier way to direct contact me and we can have a deep conversation about it. I'm I'm here for you. I've never started this podcast to do this for me. I'm doing this to help others so I wax on about that long enough but if you need someone don't hesitate to reach out because it's very important to share what you're going through with others. Now if this episode encouraged you please share it with another man. If you got something out of this and you feel like so far, you know I'm I'm pushing close to a hundred episodes at this point. I would really love it if you've listened to one episode of this podcast and it gave you value. If you go to Apple and leave a five star review it would really help the podcast grow and I don't want it to grow for my benefit. I want to reach as many men as I can I want to see lives change through the conversations that we're having. So I'd appreciate any kind of help I also have a community you can join which will be in the description I am starting to add stuff into the classroom this past week I added a workout program you can do in there and there you can have any kind of conversation you would like to it's an open forum and it's wholly free. With that oh and last thing I'm gonna have all three of James podcasts in the show description go follow his podcast so with that stay strong stay valiant keep forging your path and be blessed