Your Job Is Your Mission Field | Faith at Work with Tom Peterson

How do you live out your faith at work without becoming "that guy" in the office?

In this episode of The Valiant Forge Podcast, Mark Osborne sits down with Tom Peterson for a relaxed, honest conversation about one of the greatest mission fields many Christians overlook—the workplace.

Together they discuss how to represent Christ in everyday situations, navigate difficult bosses and coworkers, extend grace when you fail, and discover that your greatest witness often comes through your character rather than your words.

Whether you work in an office, a factory, on a construction site, or run your own business, you'll be encouraged to see your job as more than a paycheck—it may be where God has called you to faithfully serve Him.

In this episode:

•  Why your workplace is your mission field 
•  Sharing your faith without being preachy 
•  Leading with character instead of arguments 
•  Dealing with difficult coworkers and bosses 
•  Giving yourself grace after failure 
•  Finding purpose in everyday work 
•  Biblical principles for Christian men in the workplace 

Connect with Tom Peterson

Home - Tom C. Petersen

https://substack.com/@repentingofwork

Want to be a guest on The Valiant Forge Podcast? Send Mark Osborne a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/17432638464878159623a121d

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_02 0:00

It's not like you're going into work during lunchtime, standing up on a lunch table and waving your Bible.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

I mean, you could. I mean, that's an option. Uh never worked for me. Um who am I kidding? I never I never did that. And I think my friend Scott Warren really captures this really well. He talks about there there are restrictions about what you can say about Christ in the workplace. You know, or organizations um have tight controls, there are restrictions, but there's no restriction on acting like Jesus in the workplace.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Sometimes you'll be the only Bible that people will ever read. Yeah. So have you had an instance where you're living out who you're the gifts of Christ, the the gifts, kindness, peace, pace. And have you had a time where people see this in you and they come up to you and like, why are you like this? Why are you different than me?

SPEAKER_03 0:50

How do you never had that? No. That sounds nice. I should I should experience that. And I'm reading this thing about love. I was just talking about you know 1 Corinthians 13. And she's like, and and what do I call it? Do I call it a chapter or verse? Or what do I? And she said, I I know you know this stuff because you're a Christian. And it just caught me completely off guard. It is really interesting that you you impact people even when you don't realize it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Welcome to the Valiant Forge podcast, where we help men overcome life's battles, grow up better in the world, and become a valiant warrior for God. This is a place where we share practical strategies that will equip you on life's journey to help you become the man God has called you to be. Are you ready to overcome your doubt and fulfill your purpose just like Gideon? If so, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Today's conversation is a fun one. Um, it's a little different than our normal Valiant Forge conversation. Uh Tom Peterson is a man who is passionate about helping people find Jesus in the workplace and how to shine the light of Jesus in the workplace, and we have a great conversation about that. What's cool about Tom is he's on Podmatch, which is a platform where I find a lot of my guests. If you've ever noticed, if you are interested, if you are a podcaster and you're interested in interviewing people, I leave a link in almost every show that I do for Podmat. And you can click that link and join that platform yourself. It's a great platform if you're interested in podcasting. That is the place to go, I'm telling you, because they give insights, lessons, everything. Enough about PodMatch. But, anyways, Tom Peterson is from Podmatch, but he also lives close to the state that I live in, and he has friends in the town that I live in. So as we were messaging, we decided to meet up because he was gonna come and meet his friends here in Elgin. We had a burger together before we recorded the podcast, got to know each other, and if you listen to this podcast and you can just kind of see how we're sort of bantering and having a lot of fun. Tom is a great guy, by the way, great sense of humor. So I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation. But, you know, we we laugh, we joke a lot, we talk about our workplaces, we we share some stories about our workplaces, but what we really tackle is a conversation that I think is really important, that a lot of Christian men deal with, and that's how to shine the love of Jesus in the workplace without being too open and too, you know, without getting in trouble and still doing our jobs diligently. So I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation. Here's my conversation with Tom Peterson. Tom, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Mark, thanks so much.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

I'm looking forward to the conversation. Me too. This is cool because the first pod match person I've interviewed live.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

And and you you went for the went for the stars. So congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Awesome. So tell me about yourself.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Um my name is Tom Peterson. I'm a uh uh former utility communications guy. I have a real heart for the topic of faith in the workplace. I think uh faith is a uh challenging place uh to uh to to live out in the workplace.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Work is a challenging place.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Work is a challenging place to live out your faith in the work in the workplace, and uh and so that's the kind of stuff I like to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

So, what is utility communications?

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Yeah, I was a uh PR guy, communications uh director for a couple different electric utilities, um uh working in uh Iowa, uh Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, and uh uh long career there uh working for uh the kinds of organizations that provide the electricity you use, the natural gas you use. So spent a lot of time uh in corporate setting uh trying to survive in that kind of uh dog eat dog world.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

I see. What what kind of PR do you have to do for an electric company?

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Everything from explaining why your rates are going up to how to help you use less of our product to why we have to build a transmission line through your front yard.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

I see. So you've had to really learn how to try to smooth people over that you're raising their prices.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Sometimes you have to try to communicate in a way that uh uh try to convince them a position that they may not have when you start the conversation. So that's a challenge.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Yeah. So was it kind of like sales?

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Uh a little bit, yeah. Um but at the same time, I I always liked working in the utility industry because it's such an important product. Uh, the very fact that we're recording this is uh as a result of uh somebody providing the electricity so that could be done. So uh there's a sense of purpose to that to that work.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Awesome. So where did how did you come to the place of like, I have to find humor in this and figure out how to share my faith while I'm doing this?

SPEAKER_03 6:11

Yeah, I um my journey started at a time when I was really uh kind of at the bottom of my career. I was really struggling with the work that I was doing. Um, the company I was working for was not the same as the company I joined 15 years earlier. And so I processed that by writing about it. Uh journalist by training, and I always felt like there should be a role for my faith here. This is a struggle. Uh, there should be a role for my faith. So I I process it by writing about it. And uh, and the and the more I wrote, the the more interest I got from individuals. I had a column with uh uh uh cbn.com where I wrote about this kind of stuff. And uh because because again, I just felt like it's really important and it's really challenging. I think the workplace it disincents people of faith to live out their faith.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

There's a lot in the workplace that um tells you to keep quiet about your faith, tells you that you should be focused on the work, not uh you know, extracurriculars like your faith. That you need to be focused on um what's good for the team, what's good for the organization, as opposed to what's good for God. And and and culture is just different, you know. Uh, blessed are the meek, doesn't make it in a lot of corporate statements, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

And and so I I think people have faith, you know, struggle with that. At the same time, though, I think that the workplace is an incredible field of opportunity for sharing our faith. Because you're working elbow to elbow with a lot of folks who who may not have a faith background, they may not know who Jesus is. And so it's a wonderful opportunity for each of us to uh share that with people you wouldn't who wouldn't otherwise have exposure to that. But given those two factors, it it's it's important to do, but it's hard to do. I I think that it's important to give yourself grace. And so I think that's where the humor comes in. This is important, God values work, we see that throughout scripture. Um, but at the same time, it it's easy for us to sort of beat ourselves up. I didn't do as good a job. I blew up in that meeting, I I didn't didn't really show the love of Christ when I yelled at my coworker. And so it's easy to give yourself uh a bad reputation, just be angry at yourself and just keep that downward spiral. My word of encouragement is don't do that. Uh give yourself grace, find humor in it, um, and and be assured that you're you'll never do it as badly as I've done it. So feel good about that.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Yeah, I was recently having a conversation with a friend of mine. He said, you know, we were talking about what how do where do men struggle the most? And he's he's really on fire for God right now. So every answer that he gives is spiritual, which is not not bad, not wrong, right? But there was a practical side of things. So when I ask him that question, he's like, I think men struggle to die into themselves.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

My response is we have to go to work every day, we have to deal with things outside of life. And I agree, you should die to yourself and let your spirit man rise up. Right. But how do you do that in a workplace? You have to go and do your tasks. Well, you use yourself to do these daily tasks. You're using yourself, and I'm sure you're letting the Holy Spirit lead as you're talking to these people in the utility PR thing, whatever you're doing, I have to program stuff on my machines at work. I am not completely dying to myself because if I did, I wouldn't know what codes to put in to make a machine do what I want it to do. Right. So, how does a person in the workplace die to themselves and still live out what they need to live out to live life?

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Right. And I think my friend Scott Warren really captures this really well. He talks about there there are restrictions about what you can say about Christ in the workplace. You know, or organizations um have tight controls, there are restrictions, but there's no restriction on acting like Jesus in the workplace. And I just think that is such a foundational and such an important concept for us as people of faith to keep in mind. There's no restriction about being graceful to a coworker, uh being kind, uh being encouraging, uh talking about how your own life is in a better place as a result of your faith. You know, that that's all that's all good and continue to do that. And I think that's where it you you allow the love of Christ to come through what you do, that you don't have to stop doing the technical things that you know how to do in your job, but you do them in a way that uh shines a light so that people say, Wow, whatever, whatever Mark's got going on, I'm kind of curious. I'd like to know more about that. I'm gonna ask him about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Right. So it's just thinking of a little bit of humor. It's not like you're going into work during lunchtime, standing up on a lunch table and waving your Bible.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

I mean, you could. I mean, that's an option. Uh never worked for me. Um who am I kidding? I never I never did that. No, I I just think it's much more about acting in ways that are um that demonstrate a sense of love and compassion. Um I'm in a season of life now where I'm trying to do scripture memory. And so one of the one of the pieces of scripture, uh Colossians 3, 12 through 13, that God's really placed in my heart is um uh having uh putting on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, patience, because those are not natural states for Tom. I don't maybe maybe they are for Mark, but they're not for Tom.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

I don't think they're natural for anybody, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Right. And and so because we've been chosen by God, as the scripture says, holy and beloved, then we should have the power to be able to do that. And if you try to do it on your own strength, chances are good that's not gonna work. When I try to be patient on my own strength, I I'm I'm usually impatient. But when you turn to the spirit, say, I need that help, uh, because the person I'm sitting across from right now is is really struggling in life. And I think that there's a message uh that has changed my life that could change their life, help me to figure out a way to share that in a way that that impacts them in a positive way, all the while you're trying to do your job. So I think that's where the interesting challenge for for uh men, especially in the workplace, um where we we feel that tension. And like I said, it's it's easy to get discouraged when that's the kind of tension you're feeling.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

So again, find the humor in it, you know, recognize that you uh trying to do things on your own will, your own strength, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're not being successful. Yeah, okay, laugh it off and and get up and and uh allow the spirit to work on it on you.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

So, what are some of the things you talk about in your book? What are just some key elements?

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Um, uh co-workers. Uh uh apparently you're supposed to get along with them, you know. So that's that's a challenge. Um the bosses, you know, the whole authority thing, you know, we struggle with that. Um uh business travel. I I find business travel to be a really interesting one because it's that weird combination of I'm somewhere where nobody knows me, so I have less accountability, so I could get away with stuff that I couldn't do in my hometown. And yet at the same time, uh you've got an opportunity to to minister to a whole bunch of strangers by the way you act, by the way you respond to difficult situations. Uh, because business travel is pretty darn stressful these days. So uh again, what an interesting opportunity to to demonstrate Christ in in the uh in the airplane fuselage.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Yeah, I love the way you're you're talking about it. It's basically your example is how you live. I've I've there's a common Christian ease face phrase that says, sometimes you'll be the only Bible that people will ever read. Yeah. So have you had an instance where you're living out who you're the gifts of Christ, the the gifts, kindness, peace, pace. And have you had a time where people see this in you and they come up to you and like, why are you like this? Why are you different than me?

SPEAKER_03 14:32

How do you how do you never had that? No. That sounds nice. I should I should experience that sometimes. No, uh and it's really interesting that you you impact people even when you don't realize it.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

I had a coworker and and she and I were were friends, but we were competitors. We both reported to the same boss, and so there was this strange dance we would do of cooperation and yet uh competition. And and I and I struggled sometimes to live out my faith in such a way that demonstrated it. But I was so moved one time when she uh came up to me and said, I'm I'm I have to speak at a wedding this weekend, and I'm reading this thing about love. Well, she's talking about you know first Corinthians 13, and she's like, and and what do I call it? Do I call it a chapter or verse, or what do I? And she said, I I know you know this stuff because you're a Christian. And it just caught me completely off guard is that she she did see something that I didn't think was there. I thought I was doing a good job of hiding it because it's the workplace, you know. Uh I'm I'm struggling to talk about my faith at work, but yet at the same time, she sees that. And so I think we again have to give ourselves grace that we have impacts that we don't always know that we have.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

And uh you don't get to see everything that's happening from your limited vantage point. So um trust God, He's working, and be obedient to what He's called us to do and how He's called us to act. Again, I wish I had a hundred stories like that for you, Mark. It's embarrassing how rare they are, but I I again we just have to give ourselves grace. Right. God is working in spite of ourselves sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah, I have I have a similar story. Again, there's not a lot. There was I so I I mentioned to you when we were talking earlier that I've worked at 13 different companies. I wasn't always bold in my faith, and even now I share my faith with the company I'm at. And when I when I started there, they ask you what are your hobbies. And at the time that I started there, I was a worship leader. I'm like, well, I worship lead a church. Right. So that was like right away, I shine the light on myself, or Jesus shine the light on me. That's better. Um, but there was a company previous to that that I wasn't open about who I am. I didn't shy away from it, but I just didn't proclaim it. Right. And I had been there probably about a six months, two, eight months. And blue-collar workforce, you know, it's a little more aggressive with the language most of the time. And a guy came up to me, he's like, I noticed you don't swear. Why is that? I'm like, Well, I'm a Christian. And just the fact that he noticed that I don't swear in a in a place where a vulgar language language is common was enough for him to ask the question, and it led to a conversation. Now I don't know if he got saved through that or anything, but at least planted a seed. Right. So is that what you talk about in your book?

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Oh, yeah. Uh, because I think uh again, I think there are so many ways to act in ways that that shine the light of Christ um that we may not recognize, as especially if we're uh depending on how long you've been a Christian, some of those things may be sort of second nature and you you you take sometimes take them for granted. Um and sometimes again, we tend to worry too much about the one time I I did let slip with an expletive in a meeting, and I'm afraid that's all people will remember.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Um again, give give yourself some grace. You're you're only human. Uh let the spirit continue to work on you uh and work on other people through you. And I I I I I think that's just a it's a powerful opportunity. Um, yeah, it's daunting uh because the workplace has so many restrictions, some of them are real, some of them are self-imposed, because you know, our our work is our salary, our work is our insurance, our our work is our identity in some cases. And so our natural tendency is not to brush up against that, right? We don't want to do anything that threatens that. And so I think that's where the tension comes is is what's what really is more important to you? Uh is is it your faith? Is it your belief in Jesus Christ and and and God, or is it the the security that comes with you know the job that you're in right now? Um I I and that answer is different for every person at every moment at every time. So how you navigate that is really important. But my message over and over is just give yourself grace. It it it is funny when you stop and think about it because you've got this eternal salvation, it's gonna last long after your workplace, long after that organization uh stops being an organization. So um in a lot of ways, this is all silly, you know. Yeah don't don't take it too seriously such that you um uh hurt your witness uh because you've taken it too seriously.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

For sure. I'm gonna ask you to go a little deeper because you've said it numerous times, and I'm I'm sure you say it a lot in your book. In in the in the secular world, it's the we would say don't beat yourself up. Yeah. But you keep saying give yourself grace. Yeah. So what does that look like spiritually and practically?

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Uh great question. I think it has to do with um uh not listening to the voice that's telling you that um behavior A should be interpreted as uh your identity is is is wrong or broken. Uh so that you cut loose in an expletive at a meeting uh and and so therefore by default you're a bad person. God can't use you. You're clearly weak and and uh uh incapable of of uh being used by the Holy Spirit. I think we we gotta sort of break that um mindset read the scripture where where uh grace is such a key part of Jesus' message and internalize that. You know, understand what that means, that there is forgiveness, that there is opportunity for uh redemption and retry and and uh uh repentance and trying again. And I think once you truly accept that, and that's a challenge because again, we're especially in the workplace, we're told you need to perform in a certain way, you need to meet a certain standard and such. And so it's so easy to fall into that trap of that's how I evaluate my performance, that's how I evaluate my own identity, is whether or not I meet that standard. But look at what grace really means in scripture, and then look at how you can apply that to your own your own workplace. Um I I I again, I think it has a lot to do with um individual mistakes do not a bad person make.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Right, right. Yeah, so I I'm I'm thinking of it more deeper. So like reading uh Paul talks about don't let grace abound so much. So you keep making the same mistake over and over and over again. At what point are you giving yourself so much grace that you're not getting better?

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Yeah, I think I think that's a a an issue, but I think in the workplace, at least my experience has been I I I I never gave myself too much grace. I was always way too self-critical because I felt like there was a standard of performance of perfection that I needed to achieve. And and and again, we're called to be holy as as Jesus is holy, we're called to we're called to perfection. But uh that doesn't mean that uh you can only uh um produce fruit once you've reached perfection, that we can be um uh fruitful for the kingdom on the way to perfection. And I think that's the piece where I had to kind of uh stop and learn what does that really mean? What does that really look like? And again, then it comes in my case, at least it comes down to how do I measure that? You know, if if I measure that because you know people have lined up with the water cooler to be baptized because I'm clearly such a powerful Christian, you know, that's a standard I have a hard time meeting. I I I've never met that full disclosure. Um, but if it's a case where somebody comes up to me and says, Man, I have had a really rough day, I'm in this situation, I don't know how to deal with this. You seem to be at peace in this situation. Uh what do you what would you tell me? That's evidence of the the spirit is at work, there's fruit being produced, and uh and you should celebrate that uh as opposed to beating yourself up.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah. Yeah. You you so the way when I read your profile, it talked about being in a job you don't you don't like. Yeah. And I when we talked at lunch, you said your first job you you didn't really like, right? But you liked your second job. And the term I hear a lot is I work at at a soul-sucking job. I don't know if you've heard that before.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Yeah, yeah. Once or twice, David. Yeah. I heard that. Never expressed it, of course.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

But yeah, so how does a a Christian man who feels like he's in a soul-sucking job deal with that? Obviously, give yourself grace. Right. But do you at some point feel like it's time do you when do you know it's time to move on? So work is your mission field, which we've talked about before. Right. Work is your mission field, and you've planted as much seeds as you can, and it's like not being fruitful anymore, then is it time to move on, or how do you how does a person know that?

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Yeah, it's in that's in chapter 22. Oh yeah. So go ahead and read that. I'm not gonna answer that because I'm gonna buy the book. No, no, of course. And and I actually do talk about that because you're right. It's this fork in the road. God, do you want me here? Because this feels like suffering. Um, I'm really not sure this is what you want, uh, versus um uh I'd I'd like to take another option because this is not this is not fun. I'm not enjoying this. And I think the only way you really come through that is prayer to discern what is God's will and to and to shake that mindset that uh God wants us to be comfortable. Because I don't I don't see that in scripture that God wants us to be comfortable. No, he wants us to be obedient, it's a narrow road. He wants us to be obedient, he wants us to grow. And it as you've probably experienced, I've certainly experienced, I grow best in situations which are hard, where I'm in over my head, where I feel like I can't do anything in my own power to solve this, that's when I grow most. And so that could be one of these situations, but at the same time, those could be signals, you're you're right, to say, you know, your your time here is done. It's we're ready for you to move on.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:42

And so it it does, it takes discernment because it can be the same situation that is in fact intended to produce, you know, two very different outcomes, I think.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Are there certain scriptures you kept? I know you're in a place now where you're memorizing scripture. Let me know how that works out because I've struggled with that my whole life.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Well, here's another here's a trick for you. Um, one scripture a month, as opposed to I thought at one point I should be doing like a scripture a week or scripture a day. You know, that that will never work. You know, I need a I need a month's worth of and every morning during my Bible time pulling out that same scripture. That's how long it takes me. And maybe maybe I'm just a slow learner, but anyway. That that's my recommendation. Give yourself grace, man.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Not to brag, but I can rem I can memorize a scripture a day. Oh but then the next day I forget. I I actually did a whole 31 days on on YouTube in shorts of memorizing a scripture a day out of Proverbs, but I couldn't remember remember hardly any of them. I mean, I read Proverbs a lot, so there's a lot. And you know, being a podcaster for Christian men, there are they do tend to come back up, but yeah, I can memorize one a day.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

But that's it.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

The the to answer your question though, I mean one of the scriptures I find really uh valuable is is Colossians 3.23 about do all things as if you're working for God, not man. And I think that's all always a powerful reminder that it's it's so easy to think about your work as the task you're doing right now, the boss that's leaning over you saying, I need this done, or I need this redone, or or whatever, and feel like you're working for the supervisor, you're working for the organization, and and continually rethinking that, that the work we do is an expression of uh fruitfulness and productivity in honor of God, who equips us uh for tasks, he he prepares us, provides the resources, including our own stamina, ability, mental power, whatever whatever, and and that we're working for God. And when you continually see that, and again, that's one of those where you may have to memorize it and repeat it to yourself. Um, but I think that just that changes the whole shift of the way you view work. Uh so I found Colossians 3.23 to be a really, really impactful script.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

One one that I've always been told because I've this is me, me being vulnerable and giving myself some grace. I've always struggled with my bosses.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Is all authority over you is given to you by God. Yeah. I mean, that that's a hard one. I don't know exactly where the reference, but I know I'm pretty sure Paul said that. Yeah. Paul seemed to be the one that like stepped stepped on my toes the most.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Yeah. How how do you do that? How do you but you're dealing with a boss? I've I've had a few of them that I disagreed with numerous times. One, one in particular, I'm not gonna say his name, just in case. Yeah, how how do you how do you how do you show that person grace?

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Yeah, well, I again I I think it comes back to what are you working for? Are you working to to please that supervisor, or are you into truly seeing your work as an expression of your love and obedience to God? If you're working for God, then it's a little bit easier to um you know change that dynamic. Um but I think it I it does, it takes discernment. You you have to um uh recognize that this is the reaction you're having to a boss that's maybe unfair, maybe completely unjust and such. And um and and then how are you going to respond to that? And you know, like we talked about earlier, it's it's sort of that two paths thing. Is this another expression that yeah, you're not in a work situation that's good or productive or fruitful or where you should be? Or yeah, it's it's hard, it's difficult, but this is a time for you to demonstrate obedience, demonstrate humility, um, demonstrate submission um to this authority figure, let alone you know the greater authority figure that's God. So uh look at it as an opportunity to discern what God is trying to teach you in this situation, and then uh follow that, follow follow that direction that you're feeling as a result of your your prayer and discernment over the difficult situation. So I wish it was I wish it was an easy answer.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

No, it it isn't.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

But it yeah, but it and it's all about growth.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

And and again, you know, as you and I were talking about, it's it's so easy to look at a moment in time and say, boy, this this feels bad. This isn't well that that's not how God sees things, you know, he sees things in a much longer perspective than you or I do. He sees it from a very different and so it's just helpful to to take time to put yourself, well, what is God telling me here? Well, how does God see this? Because it's probably not how I see it.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah, and I I can attest, you know, you and I have been around a while. I look back at some of the times where I've had the most struggle, right? And I I see now where I wasn't learning through that time. During that time, I didn't see it, but if I look back, it's like, okay, I've I grew through that period. The time that I had to go and repent to that boss because he knew I was a Christian, he knew I was in church, but you know, I slammed my hammer down in front of him and said, This is stupid. I might not have used the word stupid. And, you know, I was being a bad witness, right? And I got convicted and I couldn't sleep that night, so I had to go in the next morning, bury my pride, which is so hard to do. Even after many years of being a Christian and giving myself grace, you have to bury your pride sometimes. Right. And you know, the bot the boss thanked me for that. Right. We'll we'll call him Jeff. Yeah. Jeff thanked me for apologizing. He's like, I understand, you know, we have disagreements. And what it did, it made a place for us to have conversation. Where when I would just say this is stupid, we should do it this way, he would then start asking me, Well, how do you feel about this? How do you think we should do it? And sometimes we do it my way, and sometimes we do it his way. You know, it it all depended, but it just took that place of burying your pride and being sorrowful and repentant, even to someone who isn't a Christian or you know, right.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Which is which is is sometimes the hardest because you you it's easy to inflate yourself. I'm a Christian, I I know, I know the rules. I read the rule book. I you know, I should act in a certain way. Well, I didn't. Now I have to go to you, a non-Christian, and and be humble and and uh uh break down my pride and confess to you that I didn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

And that that's really hard. I mean, let's you know, because we we are taught in the culture that you're you're never wrong, you know. Look out for number one, you know, focus on what's best for you, uh show strength, don't show weakness, because that's bad, you know. And so that's so so counter-cultural, exactly. But that's where we grow, yeah. And that's the part that I as much as I I keep looking for a loophole to so that I don't have to to grow through through pain and struggle, but time and again I see that that that's where I grow. Now, the nice part is uh the older I get, the more I've learned that you can kind of manufacture those situations with less pain if you put yourself in a position where I'm in over my head. God, I have to trust you on this. You know, we were talking earlier about volunteering for some things where this is way out of my comfort zone. This is not not the way I've been equipped through my education or my training experiences, and yet I feel a calling to do that. But I don't, I know that I don't have any of my own strengths to draw from in this situation. So I'm God, I'm really I'm really putting myself on my knees to say you gotta help me through this.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

And I think that's an that's that's a voluntary way to grow as opposed to the involuntary way where you have to go through struggle.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah, I think that's where I was trying to get you to go early about relying when you give yourself grace. Yeah. You have to rely on God. Absolutely. That's where the grace comes from.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yeah, let's let's shift gears a little bit. I appre I love your book. I think it's important for men to understand this because I I've been in that place myself, and I'm sure many men have struggled. But but what are you doing now?

SPEAKER_03 34:37

Um continuing to write. Again, I'm a I'm a journalist by training, and so um I I I love that as a process of learning about how to talk about the book, it's given me opportunities to uh support um ministries that are focused on work and faith. So two organizations that I've I've uh loved to be a part of. One is called Unconventional Business Network. Uh they're based in Kansas City, but they've got uh chapters in in Iowa and Kansas, Michigan. And again, they they have uh small groups to come together, uh men and women, um, to practice how do you how do you live out your faith at work? What does that look like? And uh I've been uh honored and humbled to be uh contributing to their daily devotions. So you can subscribe to their free devotions and um six times a month you'll get something from Tom. So that's that's a real bonus. Uh the other one.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Is there a website for that?

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Um I I think it's called Unconventional Business. Okay. Uh I don't remember if it's org or.com, but unconventional business. Uh the other one is Worklight, uh, which is worklight.org. Again, uh an organization focused on uh being Christ in the workplace. Um uh again, a great organization, chapters all over the country. Uh so uh look it up, see if there's a chapter in your area. Or again, you can subscribe to uh monthly newsletter, daily emails, uh reflections. So contributing to those types of um uh organizations, uh using my writing to do that is has been a real blessing.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Do you have another book in the works?

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Uh um and the greater question would be does God have another book in the works? We'll see. Um, yeah, I'm at a point now where I'm I'm no longer uh working on a full-time basis. So talking about what that that current life uh season looks like. Uh so yeah, I have a Substack where I I kind of talk a little bit about uh what is life uh like post-workplace. So you can find uh his work in progress on Substack somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Awesome. I'll I'll have it in the show. I'll find it by then. I'll have it in the show notes. So now's your your here's your time to shine. I'm gonna ask you the question. There's a question I ask every man that comes on the podcast. 1 Samuel 22. David was in the cave of a doom, hiding from Saul. Okay. Hiding from Saul because Saul was jealous while he was in that cave. Men of the kingdom, it says in 1 Samuel 22, the men of the kingdom were disgruntled, disheartened, and distressed. They came to David while they were in that cave. Through their time with David, he led them to be the mighty men once David took over as king. Modern day, I know you do some public speaking. So, modern day, you got a group of men in front of you who are disgruntled, disheartened, and distressed. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 37:33

Yeah, buck buck up. I mean, nobody likes whiner. Come on, guys, get it, try, try harder. No, that's not a good thing. No, that works. I'm ready to go. I I love this question, Mark, because and and the and the answer I came up with is seven words. Okay. Seven, of course, holy number. Um, but it's God is working, people are watching, and it's always. So let me break that down a little bit. It was more than seven. And we talked about it. We talked about it a little bit. Um, so I mean, got God is working, and we don't always see that. And we and and so as a result of us not seeing it, it's easy to doubt it. But I think we've all can talk, can all think of times in our lives where we didn't think our prayers were being heard, we didn't think things were moving forward, and then lo and behold, the situation has changed.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

And so I think we have to remind ourselves that if you're disheartened, discouraged, disgruntled, that um is it because your perspective isn't God's perspective? Are you not seeing the way that God really is working? Because he is working always. And and helping and and reminding ourselves of that, especially if we can re remember times in our lives where we did see how the story ended, but we didn't feel like it was going to end well in the midst of the story. I think the more we reflect on that, the more we remember that, the more we can take uh confidence and encouragement that God is working and that things God will do all things, you know, all things will come together for good for those who love him. Um so that that's going on, and then our perspective may not always see it. But then the other piece to that is we again, we talked about this a little bit earlier, is that people are watching. Uh, people are looking to see not necessarily our witness when times are good, they're looking to see does our Christianity make a difference when times are bad? So when we're frustrated and and tired, that's the very time when we've got an opportunity to witness in a way that's impactful to the people around us. And so I again, when when those difficult times happen, when we're feeling dis distraught, it's so easy to get wrapped up in our own emotions and our own fears and our own concerns and and project forward that this is just not going to end well. And woe is me. And it may happen, as we talked about, sometimes that's when we grow best, but it's also important that we remember that God is still working, people are still watching, and that that's happening always. And I I think that if we if we take that seriously, then we can have much greater impact, produce much more fruit for the kingdom. So that's what I think.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Love that answer. It's in the top three.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

You gave it to me, so I don't thought that was rude. You gave me the answer key.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

It's good that you've memorized it. Tom, I appreciate you coming on. This has been great fun, Mark. Do you have any final words?

SPEAKER_03 40:37

Uh do better, uh, buck up. Uh no, no, wait, those are the ones that give yourself grace.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Amen. Amen. Tom, thank you very much for coming on. God bless you.

SPEAKER_03 40:46

Thanks, Mark.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Most of us won't preach a sermon at work tomorrow. Most of us won't lead someone to Jesus at the lunch table. But every one of us has the opportunity to reflect Christ at our workplace. In the way that we speak, in the things that we say, in the way that we act, how we respond, even the way we apologize when we get it wrong. Maybe that's where your mission field begins. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd appreciate it if you share it with someone. If you've been watching the podcast for a little while and you enjoy the content, I would greatly, greatly appreciate it if you subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you're listening to it on. If you're watching this on YouTube, I'd love to hear how you deal with working as a Christian in the workplace. Is it hard for you to share Jesus' love? Um how how do you deal with it? How do you handle it? And no, just let me know what you think. With that, stay strong, stay valiant, keep forging your path, and be blessed.