From Brownsville to Detective First Grade: Harold Thomas on Racism, Survival & the NYPD

What happens when a young Black man from Brownsville, Brooklyn, who was arrested at 16, grows up to become one of the NYPD’s most accomplished detectives?

In this powerful episode of Corey’s Corner, retired NYPD Detective First Grade Harold Thomas shares his extraordinary journey from the streets of Brownsville, Bedford-Stuyvesant, and East New York to serving nearly 30 years in the New York City Police Department.

Thomas opens up about growing up without a father, surviving the streets, experiencing racism inside and outside the department, and fighting to earn a place in the NYPD after an investigator tried to block his career before it even began.

He discusses his rapid rise through the ranks, service in elite investigative units and federal task forces, and the life-changing 2011 shooting that left him hospitalized for two months and in rehabilitation for three years.

This is a raw and unfiltered conversation about race, policing, survival, accountability, and what has—and hasn’t—changed in America over the last four decades.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Wants a cop, let it knock, yeah. I forgot that we just celebrate my death instead of condemning it. Corey Peggy.

SPEAKER_05 0:11

Pull up a seat, you're now in Corey's Corner, where right conversations matter. I'm your host, Corey Pegiz, and I always keep it right, not real. Today's guest is a man whose life story reads like a movie script. Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, he grew up in Brownsville, Bedford Stuyvesant, in East New York, raised by a strong single mother who instilled in him the values of hard work and determination. As a young black man growing up in his 60s and 70s, he experienced firsthand the challenges of poverty, policing, and surviving on some of Brooklyn's toughest streets. At just 16 years old, he was falsely arrested for a crime he said he didn't commit. Yet despite the obstacle placed in front of him, including discrimination and efforts to keep him off the police force, he refused to quit. After winning his fight to enter the NYPD in 1984, he built an extraordinary career rising through the ranks to Detective First Grade, which is the highest designation for detective in the NYPD, serving in elite investigative units and federal task force, and becoming one of the department's most accomplished detectives of all time. Please join me in welcoming retired NYPD Detective First Grade H.T. Harold Thomas, aka my brother. My brother. Oh yeah. The most anticipated interviews, man. Everybody asked me when you bring your H on. When you bring your H on.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Yo, it's an honor to be here. It's an honor to be here, man. You done made it when you make it to Corey's Corner.

SPEAKER_05 1:50

This episode of Corey's Corner is brought to you by Vodkeela. Vod Kila is the world's first premium blend, Vokin Tequila, infused into one smooth, unforgettable spirit. Whether you're celebrating success or unwinding after a long week, choose the spirit that's we find in the game. Visit vodka.net for more. And always drink responsibly. Shout out to Corrupt Mob MC, a brotherhood built on loyalty, respect, and community. More than the motorcycle club. Respect them all. Yo, H, let's get into it, baby. Like I said, one of the most anticipated interviews. I've been waiting. You know, you down in the Thomasville Palace. I can't get you out of there. I was gonna send some snipers to come and snatch you up until you call me and say, yo, I'm coming to New York, bro. I gotta get on the corner. Let's get it. You grew up in Brownsville, Bedford Stuyvesant and East New York during the 60s, 70s, 80s. Paint a picture for us of what life was like for a young black boy growing up in Brooklyn during that era.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Well, uh, for me, with um no father in the home, uh, it was it was tough. I watched my mother struggle. I had two older sisters. Um you know, luckily for me, they were beautiful. So all the older guys, you know, they took care, you know, they took care of me because they wanted to get with my sisters. So they would be like, yo, little shorty rock is cool, you know, and they let me come hang with them. So I grew up accustomed to hanging with the older guys. And um, you know, as far as male figures, they they raised me. The streets raised me, you know. Um my mother instilled in me, you know, uh values and um, you know, belief in God and you know, the love, she gave me the love that only a mother can can give you in the nurturing. But the streets, the streets really raised me.

SPEAKER_05 3:45

Wow. Similar stories. Your mother raised three children on her own after divorcing your father when you were just three years old. Yes. What are the biggest lessons she taught you that still guide you in life today?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Wow, it's so much, man. And and and my mom's been gone for about 24 years, you know. Um, you know, she she taught me everything, man. Like it's just i I really can't even put my finger on one lesson, you know what I mean? Um but she taught me how to not give up and not to be a quitter and to follow through. That's what happened with me trying to begin my journey in NYPD. My mother, you know, she would tell me and my older sisters, I'm not gonna be able to afford for you to go to college. So she said, You're gonna get a high school diploma or GD, and you're gonna get one of these city exams. So she would get the chief paper. You you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. The old heads know what that is in New York. That was like a civil service newspaper and it had every civil service exam coming out, and uh, you know, it would give you your list numbers, and you know, you know, if you passed or whatever. That that that was the information um hub for civil service exam. And she would, you know, she would come and hand us that paper and circle, like, yo, this you're gonna take the test for, you know, um sanitation.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

Sanitation.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

You're gonna take the test for bus driver, uh, bus driver, court officer, you know, and me being who I was, and I had a lot of negative experience with the police, especially later on in my in my life. But I had one good experience that that, you know, sometimes it only takes one good thing to not make you sour on something, you know, even though that thing kicks you in the ass a lot. So I had this one good experience with the police department. I'm gonna get to that real quick. And um, so I decided that I'm gonna take the police exam. I took court officers, I took some others, but I said I'm gonna take the police exam because I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't an angel. I was I was carrying guns since I was like 13. My first gun was a pin gun, you know, Shadow Luke 22. Uh-huh. You know, but um I said I might as well take this exam and, you know, at least I don't have to worry about, you know, sneaking carrying a gun and worried about getting locked up. I want to backtrack to the story that, you know, with the positive uh influence on me with NYPD because everything else was all bad.

SPEAKER_05 6:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

But I remember I was about six or seven years old, I lived 1599 Prospect between Ralph and Buffalo, like some things you never forget. Was that Prospect Plaza? Uh no. Uh it was uh of apartment buildings, and we had alleyways, you run through the alleyways, and on the corner was a building called the Court Building. And that's where Kzar, the leader of the Tamahawks, and all of them. And down the block at Kingsboro was the uh um the hugger and the jolly stompers, and you know, we had we had gang, you know, gangs back then, and um they were like gang gangs anyway. But anyway, I remember one day we were coming home and we're walking up the stairs, and this is I would say the late 60s. I was born in 63, so it might have been 69 or 70, because I was about seven. And, you know, at that time, heroin was crazy, you know. Right, you know, I grew up seeing, you know, not and the the guy you call the claw, because you know, they from shooting up so much they had the big, the big hand and the open, the open uh, you know, wounds and everything. And I remember we walking up the stairs and two junkies come running down the stairs, and they like, oh excuse me, excuse me. You know, they got shopping bags. And they they rushed by us, and my sister said, Oh, mommy, we we got one of those, you know, and paid it on mine. We were on the second floor. By the time we got to our apartment, our door was ajar, it was cracked open.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

And this was like a couple of days before Thanksgiving. And uh um, we go in the house, they ran shacked the house, took everything. They the refrigerator was open, they took the turkey, they took all the food out the refrigerator. My mother so upset because one thing about her, she was, you know, she wanted to, she did the best she can to make sure that we had great holidays.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

So she's crying, she calls 911, two white Irish police officers showed up, and I never forget their face. And back then, you had to be over six feet tall to be a cop.

SPEAKER_05 8:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

So these big guys, blonde, blonde uh hair, blue eyes, they come in stone faced, okay, ma'am. They flip open their memo books and they're taking their report. You know, and she's like screaming and crying, okay, yo, they took the food, my babies, I'm you know, I'm not gonna be able to have a Thanksgiving for them, and she's just so upset. And these cops took the report and left. I thought nothing of it. I'm like, it I in my mind's like, oh, they don't care, they don't give a fuck.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

You know, my mother's upset, she don't know what to do. About 30, 45 minutes later, we hear the police knocking on the door. You know that police lock knock. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

My mother goes open the door. These same two tall white Irish cops had shopping bags in each of their hands. And they came, stone faced, and they just sat, sat the bags down and said, Here you go, man. You know, this is for your kids for Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Or something to that effect.

SPEAKER_04 9:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

And my mother, because she was so, she started crying and thanking them. She dropped to her knees, and she was, you know, because she was, like I said, very religious. Praise God, praise the Lord, thank you, Jesus. And she's thanking them, you know, and they left out. And that right there superseded all the bad things that ever happened to me, you know, with the police.

SPEAKER_05 9:46

Well, you'd say the streets raised you. Looking back, how much did that shape the man you became, for better or worse?

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Well, growing up in Brownsville, Beth and Steverson, and Crown Heights, you had to make a choice. You was going to either gonna be a wolf or you was gonna be a sheep. You know, my mother, you know, did her best to keep me good. My mother was born and raised in Atlanta. And, you know, she was so country from the 30s, 40s, 50s. And it was crazy because everything revolved around the boy, the man. You know, I was the boy, you know, even though I was the youngest, I was the boy, like mentality. Yeah, my sisters were taught to get up and make my plate. You know what I mean? And we be at a party, you know. I'm four years younger than my older sister, you know, a year and change younger than the other. And by 11:30, 12 o'clock, they had to go home. But I could stay.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

You know what I mean? Because and that right there, with her mentality of, you know, well, he's a boy, is different. I was able to stay out and be in the streets. Um, she she she raised me to do the right thing. She she taught me the difference between right and wrong, good and bad. You know, but once I was out there, I did things I'm not proud of, but I did things because I wouldn't even say I was a follower. You know, because my mother made made made made me work. It was the way at the time. Right. I worked at McDonald's on Linden and Drew in East New York.

SPEAKER_05 11:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Every Friday they come from across the street in the pink houses, throw shots on across the counter. You know what time it is. Yeah. Stick the place up. You know, I got wise. I said, you know what? Let me put some of this money in my pocket before they come. You know what I'm saying? You know.

SPEAKER_05 11:31

I love it. Look, at 16 years old, you were arrested for armed robbery.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

I was arrested for armed robbery, yes.

SPEAKER_05 11:37

The crime you said you didn't commit.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

No, this time I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_05 11:41

All right, well, how did that experience affect your view of the criminal justice school?

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Okay, well, I was on my um way to 42nd Street, to the deuce, as we call it. Go to the movies. We all had on sheepskins. Back then they was killing you for sheepskin, quarterfield coats. Yeah. I was wearing gold when they was killing you for the silver medallion with the Jesus piece with the ruby red in it. You know, one of my boys had a uh a phony 45. And I didn't know he had it on him. It was four of us. So we on a train and we would get the Hoyt and Skimmerhorn. Um, a guy that we knew from the neighborhood started messing with one of my boys, and the one that had the phony gun. And they got into a fight. Of course, the transit cops come, plain clothes come. And I never forget this. And this is what this is this this incident also shaped me to be the cop that I was. It was three white guys, one black guy. So now they they they break up the fight. So now the guy that started with my friend, he's got some warrant or something, whatever. So now he don't want to get locked. He's like, oh, they, you know, they were jumping me, you know, blah, blah, blah. So the transit cops locked up my friend, and when they tossed him, he had the phony gun. But you could tell it was a phony gun. So now we're under the impression that he's gonna get a summons. So we're hanging around, waiting. I must have hung around for about 25-30 minutes. Next thing you know it, they over in the huddle. They come over and they tell us all, the other, me and my other two friends, put your hands behind your back, they cuffed us up. So now they bring us into the transit station. We were at Hoyt and Skimmerhorn, and I'm like, you know, I was just waiting for him to get his summons. Like, what's going on, you know? And I told him, I said, I had a pocket with, you know, full of money, which was maybe $80, $90, which was a light lot back then. I'm like, I work at McDonald's. Like, you know, I work. I don't know, I ain't robbing nobody, you know. And um I remember the black cop came over to me. He's like, don't worry about it. Like, this is gonna get thrown out. You know, um, so don't worry about it. But I'm like, well then if it's gonna get thrown out, why? Let me go now. Let me go now, right? Right. So we wound up spending four days locked up, you know, because this is, you know, I spent two nights in the 7-7 precinct, right? A couple of nights in Central Booking, right? I think from Central Booking, they brought us to the 7-7. And I remember going in there and guys were like, yo, give me a match, you know, they were writing their name on the, you know, on the ceiling and whatnot. And I said to myself, I'm not writing my name. I don't want nobody to know I was here. You know what I mean? I said, I, you know, and I said to myself, I'll bring somebody back here before I ever come back here again. Right.

SPEAKER_05 14:29

Holly, let me ask you, did you ever imagine then that you would one day become a member of the NYPD after that?

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Nah, because at that time I'm 16.

SPEAKER_05 14:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

And and, you know, like I said, I I said, I'll bring somebody here before I do that. And so we get to court, and it just tell you what, you know, how these transit cops were really flaking people back then. You know, they look at the paperwork, blah, blah, blah. And it went from armed robbery to a disorderly conduct, and they made my mother pay a $25 fine. But I spent four days in the bookings, you know. And then, you know, but the crazy part about it is I remember when I I became a cop uh in July 1984. And I remember, it might have been my first caller or whatever, but I remember I had to transport my prisoner, and they said, yo, take drop him off at the 7-7. And I had never been there since I was there. Right. You know, and they told me to drop him in whatever cell it was, it was the same cell that I was in. You know, I'm 21 now. This was when I was 16. So five years earlier, I was in the same. And when I dropped him off, I just bust out laughing. And the guy looked at me like he was crazy. But in my mind, I'm saying, I said that I would never get brought back here again. I'll bring somebody before I get brought here again.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

That's crazy. You know, you scored high in the 90s on the police exam, and you was ready to join the NYPD, but a racist investigator spent more than a year trying to block your career. How did you stay focused instead of giving up?

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Uh my mother, thank God, um, she made sure we got the best education we could. So back in my days when I was in public school, they started the busing. So, you know, she was like, no, you're not gonna go to the school.

SPEAKER_05 16:20

Brown versus board.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Yeah, right. She made me go to, I went to um PS 130 and off Ocean Parkway, you know, I went to school with mostly white kids.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

I went to Dipman's Junior High School.

SPEAKER_05 16:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

It was mostly white. And I was sharp. So by the time I was in the in the sixth grade, I had a 12th grade reading level. But I was also rebellious. So by the time it was time to go to high school, now I'm telling my mom, nah, I'm not, I'm going with my boys is. I'm like, I'm I'm going to boys and girls high school. You know. But the good thing was I had got that education early. So now when I took the P the PD test, you know, uh, and it's funny the things you remember, it was the exam 1175. I wind up with a score of 3929. And I I took the police test because back then you could take it if you were like, I think it was 16 or 17 or not, but you had to be 20 to be appointed.

SPEAKER_05 17:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

So I took the test at at I think 17. And what the one thing it made me realize was that there's a lot of dumbass fucking cops. You know what I'm saying? Like, because how the hell you don't score like it's not rocket.

SPEAKER_05 17:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

In the high 90s, it it was made back then it was mainly common sense.

SPEAKER_05 17:40

Right. And um So this guy kept you off the job.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

No, this guy looked at I I would go to the 105, and I'm from Brooklyn. And in my back in my days, we never even went to Queens. And if you went to Queens, I mean you made it. Like, yo, you don't have yard. You might even have a backyard, you got grass, you know what I'm saying? Like, you made it. You in Queens. So I didn't even know how to get to Queens. But let me correct myself. I did used to go to Queens with with my boys because we thought everybody in Queens was soft. We would go to the peppermint lounge on Springfield and Murdoch.

SPEAKER_05 18:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

I I had, you know, the little cute little yellow girl I was messing with, this girl named Inez, you know, we would go out there, mess around, and we thought everybody from Queens was so soft, when we leave there, we would go to the 40s, the 40 project, not the ones in far Rockaway. Right. We go to the and we would we would play dice. Uh-huh. And if we won, we won. If we lost, we stick them up.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

And then we go back to Brooklyn, you know. So that's all I knew about Queens. So but I had to wind up taking two buses, two trains, go to the 105 precinct. That's what the investigator was. Yes, they were, they were on the second floor back then. And I had a white Irish investigator, his last name was Jax. And uh, I think it was Stephen Jax. And this guy took one look at me, and he just did not like me. I had, I'm not gonna lie, I had two gold teeth. You know, I had an H and a, you know, a friend, you know, you know how we were back then. Yeah, but we looked like we jumped over uh Eric B and Rock Him album cover. I used to have a two-finger ring, you know. Shout out to my man Eric B. Right. Eric B, what up, E? Yo. So this guy took a look at me, but I baffled him because I was very articulate. And that's what got me as far as I got in the PD. You know, I knew how to turn it on, turn it off.

SPEAKER_05 19:47

You remember that moment when he told you, I don't want me on my job. I don't want you on my job.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

So this guy would do everything he could to try to get me to punch him in the face because he wanted to collar me.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

And one day, sitting in the 105, he had liquor on his breath, and he told me, he looked me in my face, and he said, like, why don't you just quit? Like, he said, I don't want you on my job. That right there rubbed me so, you know, it rubbed me the wrong way that he said, I don't want you on my job. Right. Like, like he was the NYP. Like he, you know. You know, you you could have just said, yo, I don't want your black ass on the fucking white job. You know what I'm saying? And and I said, Well, sir, I I I did everything that I was supposed to do. I I passed the exam. I, you know, I'm I'm meeting all the requirements. You know, he would just get mad because I would, I would, I would turn it on like a real, like a white boy. Like, well, sir, kill him with kindness.

SPEAKER_05 20:46

Kill him with kindness. He couldn't tell.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

And he would, you know, he would just give me the runaround. One time I go up there, you know, when we fill out the two packs of all that information, yeah. He would always make me wait about two weeks before I'd come to, you know, he'd tell me to come give it to him. So one night, I guess he was doing four to twelves, he told me to bring the packs. I brought the packs, he looked at him, and I guess he was so happy he finally caught something. He came back, threw them at me, right? And he says, on this one, you you left it blank. I said, Oh, sir, I said, um, that's a silly mistake on my part. But as you can see in the other booklet, I have the information. I said, if you will allow me, I'll fill it, you know, I will fill it out now if I can use one of these typewriters. Right. You know, because the information is right here. It's just, I left it out on this book.

SPEAKER_05 21:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

He's like, no, do it right, come back and see me in two weeks. You know, he just did shit like that.

SPEAKER_05 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

You know.

SPEAKER_05 21:45

So how did so you appealed in 1984? You appealed.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

It was so bad back then that the Guardians was making a big deal, and they started a unit called a re recruitment retention unit.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

And that was filled with Mostly black, blacks, you know, black investigators or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 22:04

And that's why I had Jeffrey Hobb.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Right. Their job. My man. Yeah, yeah. Their job was to help us to get past the white board. You know, why didn't you just make them the investigators? You know what I'm saying? So I had uh a sergeant, a black sergeant, that took a liking to me. And he, you know, he would call my investigator, and it was so crazy back then. This is this man is a sergeant, and this white investigator would be disrespectful to him. You know, like it was the the disrespect was so, the racism was so crazy. And I'm straying, but I remember one time the um the sergeant, all right, he's in the office and he the guy's almost in tears. He told me, he said, you know what, Roger Abel was the president of the Guardians Association. Roger Abel, God bless you. God bless his soul.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

God bless you.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

You know, but in my opinion.

SPEAKER_05 23:05

He was weak.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

He didn't, you know. If you had a nice ass and you was a cute, he go all out for you. And and and and and and this sergeant was so upset, the guy had like tears in the eyes. He said, listen, he said, I went to him and I told him, listen, this kid is gonna make, he's gonna make it. Like he's a sharp, articulate kid. Like, you know, and you know, he is who we want.

SPEAKER_05 23:33

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

And he says, Roger told him, looked at him, you know, because he looked at me, and he told him, Man, why do you keep wasting your time with that guy? Like, yo, you know, yo, like, you know, just go to somebody else. Like, look at him. And the guy said, you know what? He said, that's our problem. We complain about white people stereotyping us. And here we go, we do it, we we do it to each other, you know. And um, so this investigator just kept messing me around to after about a year, he made me miss three classes. He made me miss July 1983, he made me miss January 1984, right? Because I yeah, because I turned 20 in April of 83. So he made me miss July 83, January 84, and a mini class in April of 84.

SPEAKER_04 24:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

And now, he says, I got him. He said, because they have a year to do your case. So either they gotta shit or get off the pot. So he called him up, he said, listen, it's a year. Either you're gonna qualify him or disqualify him. You know? And my investigator said, Alright, I'm disqualifying, right? And he said, he told me, he says, listen, you know. His name was Harvey White. You know, this is my first hook, I didn't even know it. He said, Listen, I want you to go to headquarters, police headquarters, one police platform, such and such day. He said, because you're not he's supposed to send you a notification for the review board. He said, but I'm I'm 100% sure he's gonna throw yours in the garbage. You know? And I wrote the date down. You know, it was um beginning of July, and I went before the board, you know, and I got there, and I never forget it was deputy, no, it was it was chief Aaron Rosenthal, he was a three-star chief of CCRB. It was a deputy commissioner, a Jewish lady named Helen Tanzars, and another guy. And um they were looking at my investigator's paperwork, his DD5s. I didn't know what they were at the time. And they're laughing at his paperwork. They look at he's this guy's an idiot. Like, you know, then look, he writes this here, and then he contradicts himself here, you know. So they're interviewing me, and I'm yes, ma'am, no ma'am, da da da. And after about 15 minutes, they said, all right, listen, you're gonna go into the class in two weeks. April, I mean July 16th, class. And I remember I was so, I just got up. I said, I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna make y'all proud. I'm not right, you know, I'm I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna show y'all y'all made the right decision.

SPEAKER_05 26:10

You know and look at this. Three decades later, you made not only made them proud, you made your family and a bunch of other cops that look up to you, including myself, proud. Now, HT, I know you watch Corey's Corner. We're at the spitfire around. I'm gonna ask you ten rapid fire questions. There'll be one word answers, yes or no. Try not to expand too much. You ready? Okay. You ready?

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Yeah, ready.

SPEAKER_05 26:39

Brownsville bed style, East New York. Brownsville. Best lesson your mother ever taught you. Don't give up. Detective show retirement badge. Uh I wanted to hear this answer.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Retirement.

SPEAKER_05 26:56

Yeah, that you're in the Thomasville mansion out there. Yeah, it is looking good out there.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

I haven't carried a shield since the day I retired. I got a dupe like everybody else.

SPEAKER_05 27:05

I don't even carry a shield.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

And I carry, I carry a shield every day. I had two shields, my police officer shield that I had for four years, and my detective shield that I carried for 26 years almost after that. And I carry it every day. You know.

SPEAKER_05 27:24

Toughest assignment of your career?

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Uh toughest assignment? I really didn't have any tough to me, honestly.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

Not even them shootouts?

SPEAKER_02 27:35

I mean, I mean that wasn't an assignment. I wasn't, you know, hey, you're gonna go have a shootout. Not that.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

But that was as an undercover or an investigator? Uh undercover. Undercover.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 27:46

Okay. Most important quality of a leader.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

To me, uh most the most important quality of a leader is when he shows you that, how can I put this? He won't ask you to do anything that he wouldn't do.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

Leave from the front. Right. Biggest misconception about police officers?

SPEAKER_02 28:05

That they have common sense.

SPEAKER_05 28:07

What does success mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Retiring and living a good life.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

One thing you change about the NYPD tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

How they still treat African Americans, minorities. Because the sad thing about it is what I went through 41, 42, 43 years ago, they're still doing it today. They find different ways to do it, but it's still the same concept. They're still doing it. And the sad part is when I came on, we were happy to see a black sergeant. Now you've got an abundance of black supervisors, we've had black chief of departments, we've had black commissioners, and nothing's changed. They still fuck us around. It's still the same.

SPEAKER_05 28:49

Greatest accomplishment outside of policing.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Greatest accomplishment is my children.

SPEAKER_05 28:54

How do you want to be remembered? One word.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

One word, loyal.

SPEAKER_05 28:59

Thank you for participating in a spitfire round. I would say legendary. As you definitely a legend. Corey's corn is powered by Story to Tell Productions. If you're serious about starting a podcast or taking your production to the next level, this is the team you need. Reach out to Story to Tell Productions and get it done the right way. Before we move forward, let me take you somewhere for a second. Everything we talk about on the show, power, accountability, loyalty, redemption, it's just not a conversation for me. I lived it, I've earned it, I survived it. I walked the streets, I won the badge, I seen both sides of the law. Cavity weight of decisions that change people's lives. That's why I wrote Once a Cop to Shoot the Law, Two Worlds, One Man. It's the raw, unfiltered truth about the journey from the corners of the streets of Queens, New York to the high glass ceilings and floors of one police plaza and the NYPD. The pressure, the politics, the purpose, the course. And the documentary, a cops and robbers story, pulls the curtain back even further. No headlines, no soundbikes. Just a human story behind a uniform. Because behind every badge is a man, behind every rink is a story, and behind every story is a choice. Now we're from our sponsors.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

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SPEAKER_05 30:53

Let's get back to HT. You made third grade in just four years, which is pretty quick. Most people wait at least five, six years to even get out. Some people eight, nine, ten years.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Well, actually, back then it was almost unheard of. You know, I worked when I went to narcotics, I had just going on to a year of a job.

SPEAKER_05 31:16

Because my next line was a promotion that was virtually unheard of at the time. Back then, yes. Yes, back then. So what separated you from your peers and allowed you to advance so quickly?

SPEAKER_02 31:27

It wasn't just me, it was a group of us, they needed us. This was in uh early 1985. I actually went to narcotics as a temporary undercover.

SPEAKER_05 31:38

So this is right. The beginning of the crack era.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Right. I tell people, I came on a job 1984 BC, before crack.

SPEAKER_04 31:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Crack hit in 1985. Well, that's when I found out about it. And they needed us youngsters to be undercovers. And when we got picked up to be undercovers, I got recommended by my NSU lieutenant who I thought couldn't stand me because he never said a word to me.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

And he would always watch me and stare at me. And I thought, this man don't like me. One day, towards the end of NSU, he called me in the office. I want to talk to you. And I'm like, oh shit, what the fuck did I do? Like he finally got me. This dude, he don't talk to me, he don't like me. He just watched me, you know. And that's why I say, you know, people will fool you, man. You know, and I don't stereotype all white people. I've I've got some very, very good, close white friends. I got some white people that uh, so their heart is pure, like they don't see color, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

And this lieutenant, I'm thinking he don't like me because he don't talk, he just look, he hardly say anything to me. And he called me in the office, and I'm like, oh shit, they this is where they're gonna get me. They're gonna, you know, I'm I'm I'm gonna get terminated. You know what I mean? Right. And he told me, he says, listen, uh I got a friend who's a lieutenant in narcotics, and every year about this time, he asks me if I got anybody in my command, in my squads that I think would be good for this assignment. And he says, you're the only one that in here that I, you know, think would be good for this. I'm shocked. My jaw dropped. I'm like, wow, I didn't, I really didn't I didn't think he liked me. So I'm like, oh, I'll give it a try, sir. I won't, I won't embarrass you, I won't, I won't make you look bad.

SPEAKER_05 33:24

So you go over to narcotics.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Right, we go to narcotics because it's like almost like a 21 Jump Street thing going on. Like they need a we need young people to get these drugs because it's crazy. And um, when I got to narcotics, everybody there had 15 to 20 years on the job. And most of them were white shields. You had maybe one or two detectives here, whatever. So at that time, you had to have, if you had 15 years in a hook, you get the shield. But the average time to get the shield would be 20 years. As an undercover, we got what's called time and a half, investigative time. And it wasn't no, okay, you do this amount of time, you're gonna get your shill, whatever. You know, it's whenever they felt like it.

SPEAKER_05 34:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

And this was before the the the grade bill. I mean, not the the before the track, the 18-month bill, or whatever it is, where you go now, it's almost like a perfect attendance award. If you you could be the dumbest person in this unit, if you if you last there for 18 months, you've got you're gonna get your shield with everybody else. Um, so that was it was unheard of to get it, you know. I had over four and a half years on the job when I got my when I made 30. Well, that's good.

SPEAKER_05 34:34

I listen, it's super dope.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

But it sidetracked me though. It's all right. It is what it is. Because if if there was one rank of detective, I would have I would eventually move on and study for sergeant, lieutenant, you know. So it was almost like a curse because I got caught up with grade. It's all good.

SPEAKER_05 34:54

Listen, it it happens. Right. The bottom line is you did your time, your career, you home that taking care of your family, living a life. I retired.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

I retired with a chief's pensions. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 35:07

I was getting ready to say you didn't do too bad. Right. For those that don't know, in the NYPD, the detective's distinction is three different grades. Your first promotion is third grade, which is like, you know, cop detective. Second is second grade is equivalent to like a sergeant as far as pay is concerned, and third is like lieutenant pay, and you can make a whole bunch of money and make chief pensions. Okay. So that's how that works.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

What's crazy is you could get promoted the same day as a sergeant. But when you make second grade, that day you go straight to top sergeant's pay. That sergeant has to wait three years to get the top sergeant's pay. So now when you make you make first grade, and the guy standing next to you that made lieutenant, and they hated it, they hated us for that, he would have to go three years to get the top lieutenant's pay. That day, I was went, I went straight to top lieutenant's pay.

SPEAKER_05 36:01

So looking back, what was more satisfying? Earning your promotions or proving to those who doubted you that they was wrong? Both. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Both. I was voted most likely to not make it all probation. Hello. Hello, most likely not to succeed, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:19

So 2011. Let's get to 2011.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 36:22

What began as an attempted robbery in Miami turned into a life or death gun battle. Take us back to that day. If you can, walk us through the details from the moment you encountered the suspects to the moment you realize you've been shot.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Okay. Well, actually, they encountered me. I'm staying at what a place called the Zen Lov's lofts off Collins in like 13 in my.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

And this is you were coming from a club, was it's late night, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:51

It was early morning.

SPEAKER_05 36:52

Early morning.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Uh, my partner, we went out there to celebrate his wife's birthday. Innocent, strictly in, you know, me, a couple of uh of my my partners at the time I was assigned to the the FBI, NYP, the Joint Terrorist Task Force. Me being who I am and and you know, the things that I went through, I never went anywhere without bringing a gun. You know, I'm allowed to, so I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_05 37:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

You know, so we leave the club called M2 Mansion. I've always been into jewelry, you know, since I was uh a teenager. I know, I see a lot of old pictures. So I've always, you know, liked jewelry. So I had on nice jewelry, expensive watch, and these uh these guys were recidivist robbers, you know. And the guy followed me out. We were we were staying like maybe two blocks from the club. He followed us back, and then he waited, you know. And I just so happened to come out at like 6.37 in the morning, I wanted to go to the Cuban spot to get breakfast. So on the way back, him, he had called up a f uh his partner who was under house arrest, had an ankle mounted on, and they were running around there robbing up everybody in Miami. And they um they waited for me in the um courtyard of the area where we were staying. So when I walk up, I see like one guy sitting on a bench like he's asleep, and um the door closed faster and harder than it usually because I stayed here a few times. Right, and right away my antennas go off and I'm like, this is not good, you know? And uh as I I'm walking, I start playing like I'm drunk. And the guy gets off the bench and he's got like a big cowboy gun of 45, and he says something to the effect of, oh, you know what it is, you know what time it is. I got my Glock 9 uh my Glock 19 on my hip. And I got the magazine, I'm cheating. I got the magazine with the two extra shots, so I got like 18 shots. It was the Brownsville knucklehead in me. Instead of just giving it up and then waiting and then blasting them, you know. Right, right, right. I'm like, yo, I start playing like I'm drunk, and he's holding the gun down, so it's not really a media threat. So, and you know how they teach us to you know quick draw and tuck and you know.

SPEAKER_04 39:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

So I'm playing like I'm drunk, and he's like getting frustrated, but he's got the gun down. So I see a palm tree. I said, I'm gonna get behind this tree and use the tree for cover, and then I could go at both of them.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

You know, all this police shit started going off in my mind. You know, he was getting frustrated. I don't know whether he just got tired of me, you know. But at the same time, I I pull my gun out and he raises up the gun and he hits me in my upper left eye. But it was a 45, it severed my femoral artery. And I tuck and I start blasting. I hit him like twice, and I'm and I got them lined up with his boy, he's got a gun in his hand, but he's downrange. So all my rounds is going in, going, going towards them. I knew I was hit as soon as he hit me. That thing spun me around.

SPEAKER_04 39:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

You know, I'm wobbling and I'm mad now. And I'm you know, as they ran out the fence, I'm shooting through the, you know, like you've got to be, you know, like you see on TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And fortunately, I was uh uh a couple of blocks from Jackson Memorial, and it was some cops sitting down the block.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

And like because I shot Collins up, you know, and then we they were shooting at me too. They came, my partners, them came out, Rob and Antoine, and everybody came out. And I was so messed up, I didn't even, and they were so messed up, they didn't even think to put a tourniquet on my leg. You know, I'm telling them, you know, giving them the description and everything. The cops came, they kicked my gun out of my hand, but it was open because I emptied it. Yeah, and uh got my ID, so now they start moving. Oh, he's he's one of us, you know. And uh they got me in the in the bus in the ambulance and um got me the grady. The doctor told me by the time I got there, I had a half a cup of blood left.

SPEAKER_05 40:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

And um, I've seen people die from this same injury.

SPEAKER_05 40:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

I I worked with a guy that accidentally shot himself cleaning his gun and he died before ESU could kick the door down his house. And what saved me was two things. I realized I wasn't scared to die because I I could feel the life running out of me.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

And I, you know, it's harder to breathe. You can't breathe without oxygen, you know. And I said to myself, well, my family's gonna be straight. My ex-wife, she's still on the insurance, she's gonna get over a million dollars. I know she's gonna take care of everybody.

SPEAKER_05 41:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

And I said to myself, I'm gonna go see my mom. And I just relaxed.

SPEAKER_05 41:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

That's what saved my life because if I would have been scared, I would have pumped that last little bit of blood. Right. Because when I got to the hospital, like I said, the doctor said I had half a cup of blood left. And this doctor was a doctor that was a uh he was a doctor in Vietnam.

SPEAKER_05 41:47

And he treated So he used to seeing all those types of wounds.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

And he he was off, but he happened to just stick around checking on some of his patients because you don't realize it at the time, but everybody gets shot in Miami. And Jackson Memorial is a is it's like you know, one of the best for that type of trauma. Right.

SPEAKER_05 42:07

So you get shot. This is all over the news in New York. This is all over the news. Police commissioner Ray Kelly at the time ordered you to be airlifted from Miami back to New York. Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Well, at that time, I was well liked.

SPEAKER_05 42:24

I was loved. Yeah, airlifted. Right. And I think they made it a line of duty. They made it a line of duty immediately because you took police action. Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

I stayed in the hospital by Amy for two months.

SPEAKER_05 42:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

And I had hot, you know, I had guards around the clock and everything. And um, when it was time for me to go, because I they excellent for trauma.

SPEAKER_05 42:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

But I caught Mercers, you know, it was it was bad.

SPEAKER_05 42:48

So you had to do you had to get back to New York. Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

They put me on a G5, my first time on a damn G5. The worst rider ever, you know, and brought me back. And but of course, as you know, in NYPD, we got haters. And the haters started, oh, he was out there bodyguarding somebody. He was out there doing this, he was doing that. And we had Camp Peasy was the chief of IAB, and he was a weasel.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

And he he sent teams down to find anything they can to fuck me.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

And I remember I was told that the chief of Miami PD, when they came to him and they asked him, like, we want to know, was he drunk? Was he, you know, and he said, yo, he said, Did you see that scene? He's like, these fucking guys is fucking career criminal. That's all they do is rob people over here. That guy's a hero. He said, I hope he was fucking drunk, so he didn't feel none of this shit. But you know me, I don't drink. Yeah, yeah. I'm a I'm a social drinker. You might you'll see me at a racket, as we call it. Yeah, I have one drink in my hand for the whole night.

SPEAKER_05 43:50

Let me show you this picture right here. Uh huh. You see this picture right here? Uh huh. Me and you in wheelchairs.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

In the wheelchairs and in the NYU.

SPEAKER_05 44:01

NYU Fisk Institute Rehab. So this is the time they fly you to New York. You eventually go to the Fisk rehab on 23rd in the west side on the east side. They don't, you know, they knock that building down. But uh I had the two back surgeries and end up doing rehab.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

You came here a couple of days after the tornado. After the um earthquake.

SPEAKER_05 44:20

Yes, I come into the house. They sent me, they said you're gonna do rehab. I go with. I'm running that place by then. Oh God. It was the craziest. I go in there. Oh and you see, they see the picture of me and you in wheelchairs, which you don't even imagine. When I get to the hospital, I'm like, put them in the room next to me. Yeah, you're like, yo, yo, see, you here? What you doing here? Let's go. You giving me all this stuff to eat, fool. You telling the nurses, that's my man, we good. And it was like, but let me know.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Give him the big room over there. But let me say this because you won't say it. That was a very, very trying time for you, for my guy, because he was hurt so bad that they thought he might suffer from paralysis. Paralysis. Paralysis. Yeah, yeah. And yo, and he would be in such pain at night. And my brother, you know, and not taking nothing from my brother would be crying in pain, man. And I'd talk to him, and he didn't know whether he was going to ever be able to walk again. Yeah. You know, and that was a line of duty from uh Juve.

SPEAKER_05 45:27

Yeah, from Juve.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Right.

SPEAKER_05 45:28

But what's crazy is we had the hospital going. The nurse was crazy. We was getting visitors 24 hours, and then I'm trying to tell the nurse, like, yo, you gotta understand. We cops, we got three tours. Yeah. Three tours. But listen, I'm glad we both made it out. Yes. And we're here to sit on Corey's corner. And I know you gotta catch a plane, so we're gonna run through this. It's so much to touch on, man. There's so many levels to.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

And you know, I want to, we we we we ain't gonna be able to touch on it now, but you know, you know, I want to get on these Uncle Tom cats, these these modern-day house Negroes.

SPEAKER_05 46:06

Oh, they're running around. You know what I'm saying? Let's after that shooting, it was so traumatic. Did you ever even like experience fear, PTSD? Did you have nightmares?

SPEAKER_02 46:17

They tell me that in my sleep, I used to be pulling, like I would live every night, I would relive it, you know, relive it. And they knew that it was the incident because I would be shooting, I would be pulling my fingers like I'm shooting. Wow. You know, it was tough, man, but uh it don't bother me. It don't bother me as much as when I see things about 9-11. Because I got there just before the second tower fell. I suffered from a lot of 9-11 injuries. I had prostate cancer, I had tumor, had to be removed. I had a lot of like Poma in my neck. And I'm lucky because I have a lot of friends that suffered really bad and passed away. And all they had to do was cut me and take something out. Yeah. You know, I'm not the same, but I'm Rodney Harrison.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Former police commissioner of the Suffolk County Police Department and former Chief of Department of the NYPD. Check out Corey's Corner on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

SPEAKER_05 47:14

2012. La Marina all summer. You're at La Marina. Yeah, shout out Fernando Mateo. Fernando Mateo! Missed that spot, man. Right. So you're leaving, you're leaving, and I think you get caught up in, they try to pull you over in the DWI checkpoint. No.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

All right, what happens is I'm at La Marina with my friends, and I'm recovering from being shot.

SPEAKER_05 47:39

This is a club that was in the Washington Heights.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

I'm recovering from being shot.

SPEAKER_05 47:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

So they're trying to get me out the house. Because I've been out sick for almost a year, you know, and I've I've had numerous surgeries after being I I've probably had about 20, 25 surgeries.

SPEAKER_05 47:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

You know, I'm I'm recovering. So they come out, come on, come to La Morena. So I get to La Morena. I just bought a brand new white Cadillac Escalade of 2012. I parked on the sidewalk and I'm assigned to the Joint Terrorist Task Force. I have a pool plaque.

SPEAKER_05 48:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Not a pool plate. I have a, well, not a plaque. I have a pool plate.

SPEAKER_05 48:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Which usually is carried by executives, you know, or you have to be in a specialized unit. Right. It's an official parking plaque.

SPEAKER_05 48:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

And I put the plaque in the window. So now there for a few hours. I'm I'm my usual self. I'm not drinking. You know, I'm out there socializing, you know, with the chicks. La Morena was the shit. You know what I mean? Awesome. So as I'm walking to the car, my friends, you know, they're asking me about the new escalade I got. So I put the auto start on, right? And I showed them, I'm like, yo, go look at it. But there's a a white cop standing by my car, and he's looking, he looked at the plaque, and it's almost like he's like, I'm gonna see who the fuck has this plaque.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

You know. So I walk up to the car, I'm like, hey, how you doing? You know, and he's looking, and he look at me, he look at the plaque, and now his fucking head is spinning. Like, I got on jewelry, I'm looking like the I'm looking like a rapper, I'm looking like the rest of these. And he's like, he can't, he can't comprehend how the fuck I'm got my car parked on the sidewalk and I got a plaque. So he's and I'm like, can I help you? Like, you know, right. And he's like, oh, who are you? You know, and I take out my chill and ID, as I'd done for at that time 28 years, because I've been in plain clothes the majority of my 28 years. And believe me, my biggest fear in the streets, doing, you know, narcotics, central robbery, it wasn't the streets. It wasn't, I'm I'm I'm not scared of another black man. Right. My fear was to get shot by one of my co-workers because they see a black man. Right. I've seen it, right? And that's always been my biggest fear. So my pet peeve when I'm training people was to make sure that people knew. My I my shield and my ID card was like a stop sign. Like, yo, stop. You ain't gonna rough me up. You're not gonna beat me up. Stop, stop, stop, you know. So it was instinctively, I would always, you know, show my ID. So now somebody caught a picture. I'm standing there like this, showing this rookie my shill and ID. And now he's standing there and he he still can't comprehend. And another cop walks up, and as he's standing there, I'm thinking it's over.

SPEAKER_05 50:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

So I go under the seat and I get my gun because I didn't bring my gun into the club. And I put my gun in my waist, and now he's like, you know, uh, he don't know what to do. And now another cop comes up, and you know, it's always the John Wayne. Wait, what's what's going on? You know, they had just had a Big 13, a Big 85 with some guys, so they all riled up. So he goes, he's he's got a gun, he's got a plaque, you know, and I'm still showing them my ID. Right, you know. So now the guy comes and he says, give me your ID. And I I was trained by 50s, 60s, 70s cops. You don't never give. I heard the stories about how they would be on the Southern State Parkway and the white cops would take their shield and ID and throw it in the fucking grass, yeah, you know, and drive off because they're pissed. So I was taught never to give the ID. I'll display it for you. Right. You want me to take it out and show you the back?

SPEAKER_04 51:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

You know what I mean? So I'm like, here, I'm not giving you my ID. So the cowboy comes, and like I said, I'm still recovering from being shot. I can I can hardly walk. So now this guy's roughing me up, flipping me all around, and I'm trying not to get injured more than I already am. And my son comes up, he's pissed off. I'm telling him to chill out. He's upset, and rightfully so. Of course. Now they've they've rough, and I knew what was gonna happen. I'm begging him, please. I'm I'm laughing because they now they got me a cuff. I'm bleeding. I'm like, they're gonna be in trouble. Like, you know what I mean? Right. So I'm telling my son, like, yo, it's okay, chill. But he he he was upset, he wild out, they they beat, they beat him up, locked him up. So now, as I stated, the car's already running because I turned on the auto start to show my friends the car. So now they call the 13, everybody comes in, you know, and typical NYPD when they fuck up, instead of saying, you know what, we fucked up, let's let's dial this down and you know get this under control, they keep they start circling the wagons. So now people was coming up to the 13 and they see me bloody and they like, yo, you know who the fuck that is? Like, yo, what the what the fuck did y'all do? You know, like you know, a lieutenant that knew me came, he's like, yo, like, what the fuck is wrong with? Like, you know, so now the CO of the borough shows up. Fucking, uh what's his name that he died from COVID? Um Diaz? No, um Morris, Morris, Morris.

SPEAKER_05 53:17

Morris, yes, Morris.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Morris. Yeah so he comes up, and instead of getting control of this shit, you know, because I had a lieutenant came, and I'm, you know, first the sergeant comes, he's out of control. So I'm as a cop, I'm looking for a supervisor to come and calm this shit down. So now the lieutenant comes, I'm cuffed. He's out of control. The guy slaps me in the head, right? And I'm trying to tell him, like, yo, listen, Lou, like, get your guys under control. So now the the chief comes. Now, by now, by the time the chief comes, the word is spreading, like, yo, bro, like y'all gonna have a problem. Like, this dude. And instead of, you know, let's go back to the house and let's sort this out. Maybe I would have been, I would have been pissed, but yeah, let my son go. You know what I mean? Right. I'll deal with it, you know. Now they circle the wagon. So Morris comes and they goes, oh, well, he's coming out of the club, his car's running. Was he in, you know, he was in the car, according to the state penal code, we lock him off a DUI. But I never got in the car and the car was running because the auto started.

SPEAKER_04 54:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

You know, so now that the Manhattan DA's office fines, they refuse to prosecute. But they, you know, it's but like typical PD, instead of like, listen, let's walk this back. Oh, we're gonna charge him with uh resistant arrest and this all the content, da da da, all type of shit. They hit me with felonies. They hit my son with felonies. And um Jimmy Secreto was a two-star chief. He calls the guy Morris and said, listen, this guy don't drink.

SPEAKER_04 54:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Like, you got the wrong guy. Like, you know, uh in one hand, out the other, Phil Banks, you know, makes a call. And um every they called everybody except Espo. And Espo was pissed because he's like, yo, why the fuck wouldn't y'all call me for this shit?

SPEAKER_04 54:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

You know, I would have fucking took it, you know. So I wind up having to go back. I was uh I was suspended for like 22 days. You're supposed to be suspended for 30 days, but when Kelly found out that it was really bullshit, he made them put me back. And uh their way of squashing it was like, yo, you know, he got shot. You know, yo, let's he's gonna let's give let's get him three quarters real quick and get out of here. So one day, you know, they called me up, told me I gotta go down the left rack. They still got me on modified. I gotta go to left rack, I go see the surgeons, you know. I'm in there for like five minutes. They go, all right, you could go. I left out, and as quick as I got on the BQE, I'm getting a call. Oh, this is, you know, because on the way out, they're like, oh, enjoy your rest of your life. You know, it was like, yo, we just go through the format. Get them out of here. Right. So now I'm on a BQE, they call me, oh, you know, you uh you got approved for three quarters. But they what they figured was once this guy find out he's gonna be bringing home like almost $179,000 a year, tax-free, he'll just fucking say, fuck it and go. But y'all embarrass me. Y'all had me in the paper, hero detective arrested for DUI.

SPEAKER_04 56:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

You know, y'all fuck beat my son up. Yeah. You know, they went, they tried to, they tried to, they went to the grand jury and got no true bill. Because they don't, you know, they want to be able to hold out, yo, listen, we'll let your son go. Right. You know. But he went to the grand jury, no true bill. And now they're like, oh, you're gonna get three quarters. But you know how the job is. Oh, so yeah, you're gonna be getting all this money, and but hey, just sign these charges real quick. Right. You have to, I'm like, charges? Uh-huh. I want my fucking 22 days back.

SPEAKER_04 56:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

What the fuck do you mean? Oh, well, you know, it's gonna hold you up. You're gonna have to go to the trial room. You know how slow they are. I said, I'm getting the three-quarters.

SPEAKER_04 56:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Right?

SPEAKER_05 56:52

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

I said, I don't give a fuck. You know what this means? That'd be more 160s for me.

SPEAKER_05 56:57

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Yo, I was the first guy in history ever assigned to the FBI Joint Terrorist Task Force, suspended and wasn't transferred. You get modified, you get transferred.

SPEAKER_05 57:10

You get transferred, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

I'm suspended. I got a federal car in the driveway. Uh-huh. That's how much they fucking love me. You know what I mean? And so I stuck around. So I wind up, almost made it to 30 years. I went to the trial room, fucked them up. You know, they still didn't want to give me my days back, whatever. Then I got the three-quarters and left. Right. You know? And then three, three, four years later, I got another three-quarters for 9-11. Because it was more money in it.

SPEAKER_04 57:35

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

You know. So after you, like you did all this hero work. But but but let me say one other thing. The white rookies that did that shit that perjured themselves, they did nothing to them. And that was my thing. Like, yo, these guys perjured themselves. They went and testified at grand jury. Y'all supposed to lock them up. Right. You know? But the sad part about it is, I here I am with 28 years on the job, you know, with done everything that I did. Yeah. And they still chose to look out for the for these white rookies because they're white. Well, I'm glad you said one of those. Some people don't believe it. And they, you know, and you know what they were coming to me? I had Chiefs coming to me laughing, like, oh, you're going to get a lot of money, man. You're going to leave with a bonus. I'm like, I don't give a fuck about the money. I'm at a racket at Brusso's on the bay, and that's folks like, hey, what are you drinking? H because they're laughing because they know I don't drink.

SPEAKER_05 58:29

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 58:30

What do you got in there? You know? And they, oh, oh, you're going to get a lot of money. I'm like, they embarrass me, bro.

SPEAKER_05 58:36

Like, embarrass you, embarrass me. And then the city.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

Right. The city wound up paying a half a million dollars. Right. You know what I'm saying? But I never got a retraction in the paper. Uh-huh. You know? And still people to this day, oh, that's why you, you, you, you went out there acting up at La Marina.

SPEAKER_05 58:53

Well, good luck with getting a retraction from the newspaper. Right. That'll never happen. You know. You know, I know that. But we laughing all the way to the bank. So it is what it is. Uh-huh. You served nearly 30 years, including um elite units and federal task force. What are some of your proudest moments from your career?

SPEAKER_02 59:11

Quick story: my proudest moment. I'm new in narcotics. I'm assigned to BNNA, which was the Brooklyn North Narcotics area. We go out to uh East New York to do BB. I made a buy. I think it was like a three-piece. You know, I had the hand-in-hand, the guy that gave the money. Because then back then they thought, if I don't take the money, and you know, he gives you the drug, you know. So I give over the description of the subjects. They grab two, the last one is a lost subject. A few minutes later, they grab a guy, cuff him up. We find your lost subject, right? He was actually supposed to be the hand-in-hand. And back then, you know how the guys wear the uniform, you know, blue jeans, black bubble goose, black Tim's. Yeah, you know, everybody dressed alike. So now we do the drive-by. So for this is from a further view, I'm like, okay, yeah, positive. That's my guy. Because he dressed just like him, same height, same built. So now, to double, to, you know, to double check us, we get to the 7-5. I go into the squad and I look at him through the two-way mirror. And uh I look at him like, oh, that's not my guy. And I tell him, like, that's not my guy. I'm I'm I'm a rookie in narcotics, and I look up to all of these, these fucking guys got 15, 20 years. They they don't even talk to the motherfucking rookies, but they talk to me because I'm their bread and butter. I'm the one going out here, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

And I remember, I'm like, that's not my guy. And they came and they they they they they worked me over for about an hour. They came, yo, you know, you know, his whole family's fucked up. Like they all fucked up, they all sell drugs, and da-da-da-da. But that's not my guy.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

That's not the guy from the night. And I had to make a decision, right, at that early point in my career of what kind of cop I'm gonna be. Because this is gonna be the defining moment of how I'm gonna handle myself on this job. And I said to myself, what if today was the day that this guy said, you know what? I'm gonna stop selling drugs and I'm gonna do the right thing. And he just happened to be walking by, which he did, and he got snatched up. I said, and I remember how I got flaked by the transit cops and all the other shit that I went through. And I stuck with my guns. I'm like, no, they were so disappointed. They were disappointed because he was five hours over time. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:28

Yeah, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

And now I'm feeling bad. Like, I can't even look these guys in the eyes. I let them down.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

So I stuck to my guns. I'm not, I'm not gonna, you know, go do, I'm not gonna sign the affidavit. That's not the guy.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:42

That's not the guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

They had to let him go. And I had it took balls to do that, you know, because especially with a couple of years on the job. Right. So when you ask me what was my most defining moment, the next day we go out to do B and B. We go to the same, you know, we go to the same set. We go to this set, I do another buy, yo, here's my subject, blah, blah, blah. And I get on the radio, I said, oh, and why you out it, why you at it? You see the guy over there on the corner with the such and such, whatever he had on. I said, that's my lost subject from last night.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

They went and cuffed him up. Now, the shit reversed. These guys that I looked up to with 10, 15, 20 years old, they can't look me in my face.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:23

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:24

Because they tried their best to get me to flake the other guy the night before. And that right there, like I said, it was my defining moment because I said to myself, I was so glad I did the right thing. Because I said, How the hell would I have handled this the next day?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:39

And you would have sorted.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:40

Knowing that that's an innocent guy that we locked up last night. How are we gonna, you know, because I'm sure they would have tried to talk me in there, eh? Well, fuck it, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

You know what I mean? And out of all, I've made, I was assigned to the uh the the drug enforcement task force, the federal drug enforcement task force, I was assigned a major case, knock out, all type of shit, central robber. I've done cases where I've got big seizures, kilos of coke, hundreds of thousands of dollars. And but that right there was like the answer to your question, man. That was the defining moment.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:13

That was the dividing moment. If that 16-year-old kid from Brownsville, East New York, Bad Star, was sitting across from you, right here where I'm at right now, what advice would you give him about life, manhood, and overcoming adversity? Last question.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

I would tell him, listen to your OG. You know what I'm saying? I had my first partner on the job. I was like a father to me. Richie Wright, God rest his soul. He had a at that time, he had about 16, 17 years on the job. And he let he took me as a partner. And we would ride around Beth and Stives and we would eat one precinct. And he would tell me, you need to buy a couple of these lots over here on Fulton Street. And I'm like, what the fuck? I need a lot for. He's like, yo, hold on to it. All you gotta do is keep it clean, put a fence up around it, pay the tax every year.

unknown 1:04:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:06

How much is the taxes? Oh, about $300 a year. Fuck. He was like, yo, you kids, you just want to walk around with four or five hundred dollars in your pocket and you think you do with something. He said, You need to buy. And then in my day, they were selling the brown stones for a dollar. And he would tell me, yo, you need to buy some of these brown stones. What the fuck? I want this shit, this abandoned building. Oh, you you just you board up the windows, you keep the crackheads and the junkies out, and you pay the taxes. He said, Hold on to it. One day it's gonna be worth some money. Yo, if I had listened to this man, I'd be a multimillionaire.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:38

Easy.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm talking 84, 85. Yeah, I remember being a lieutenant at two eight when they were selling up. So I would tell the young 16-year-old me, the young HT, listen to your OGs, listen to your elders. You know, because that that saying is true that wisdom is wasted on the old, youth is wasted on the young. I needed to fucking have this wisdom back then and listen. So I would tell myself, listen to your OGs, and I would tell myself, when you get on that job, even though I did well, I did exceptionally well. Yes, I would tell myself, study and go as high as you can. And you know me. See, I looked out for a lot of people. I looked out for everybody that I could. You looked out for me.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:25

Do you remember I was on the lieutenant's list? I remember that. Yeah. I was a sergeant in the 8-1 precinct.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:31

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:31

And they was they was hating on you. I had Alan Iverson court roles. I was walking with my Diddy Bob.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:37

And they were waiting for you. You had to go before the candidate review board. I had to go to the board. For the board. Review board. And hold on. And you came to the 8 1 to see me, and you was like, yo, see. Jimmy Lawrence told me to give you a message. That's my man.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

Nah, well, actually. He said you coming to the board. No, no, no. I gotta correct you. Actually. You found out that I was cool. I was tight with Jimmy Lawrence. Okay. Right? And you asked me, like, to put in a word for you. Okay. And I remember this. I went to his office.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:11

Jimmy Lawrence is three stars.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

But she was chief of personnel at the time. Yes. Right? And everybody thought that he was related to my ex-wife because her name was Isla Lawrence.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:20

I knew him since he was a lieutenant. He took a liking to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

And I remember going to his office and I knock on the door. I got on my street clothes and secretary. I'm like, uh, Chief Lawrence and yeah, who are you? Like, what do you want? I said, could you tell him that Detective Harold Thomas is here? I just want to speak with him. Oh, I because she looking at me like, you just uh look at you. You, you know, what do you want? What with the chief? So she goes in the back, she comes out, whole new attitude. Oh, detective, have a seat, and he'll be with you shortly. And I I went in, we kicked the, we kicked the breeze, and I said, No, listen, my boy Corey Pegis. Yeah, I heard it. That's what that was his first. He's like, I heard it. And this this guy was black.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

But we do it to ourselves sometimes. He's like, yeah, I heard it. And I remember, I said, Chief. I said, Yeah, I know he's brash. He keeps it real like me. I said, but he's sharp. He knows this job. And he'll make an excellent lieutenant. He sat there twiddling his fingers and he thought about it. And he says, Tell him to get a haircut. I'm like, okay. We shook hands. I'm like, I'll catch you later. Tell the wifey I said hi, blah, blah, blah. I'll tell my wife you said hi. And I left. And I remember that particular day, you had just got your hair braided. And you was bragging about, oh yeah, I got the young this guy used to have the crazy designs, all type of shit. You know, running around, one pants leg rolled up, like LL Cool J. And that's why I loved him, because this dude was me, but in the supervisor me version, like he made Sergeant, and he ain't changing for nobody. And I remember, I said, yo, look, I gotta I gotta see you. I want to talk to you face to face. And I had made up my mind. I said, I'm gonna tell you what the chief said. And if you ain't with it, I'm not gonna go out of my way to try to convince you to cut your hair. And I remember, I said, Corey, I said, I told the chief about you. I said, they ready for it. I said, but he told me to tell you one thing. That's when we met up. Because you just was showing me your hair. And I said, he said to cut your hair. And you did the Macaulay cork in the home alone. You was like, like, I just yo. And then I that was it. We dapped up and we left. And I remember maybe about an hour, two hours later, because you must have gone straight to a barber. Yeah, I was struggling. Right. You had me fucked up. Bro, I remember, yo, and listen, you had just got your hair braided. You probably, that design looked like you sat there for about three hours. Then you went straight to the barber.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:51

The most important thing you told me, the most important thing when you told me he cut his hair, you was like, yo, something to the fact that, yo, we need you as a lieutenant. Don't let, don't let your fucking braids. Right. Don't let this fucking braids you get in this promotion.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:07

And that's what fucked me up. I realized Jimmy Lawrence wanted to see how bad you wanted it. Yeah. And I went to go to the candidate boy.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:17

It's Esther Villo, Chief Esther Villa. Uh-huh. It's Jimmy King, remember, he never even smiled. I didn't even know he had teeth in his mouth, white guy. And Lawrence. And we know Lawrence had the decision.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:29

He's the one that's making the decision. Uh-huh. And I'll never forget when he walked to the room when I was sitting in the chair, you know, and he looked at me and he kind of nodded before he said anything. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:39

And I'm like, he wanted to see how bad you really wanted that shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:42

I was like, HT was right.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:45

Yeah. As soon as he sat down, he looked at me and was like, he didn't say nothing.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:49

He just shook his head and then he did his little question. He said, Tell him to get ahead. Well, I never forget that, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:54

Yo, bro, believe it or not. You've done that for a lot of people. I did it for Eddie Kaban.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:00

Yo. Man, this was a great conversation, man. I know you gotta jump out of here. Yeah. But um, is there anything you wanted to add before we wrap?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

I just want to say, man, those of y'all out here watching, man, don't let nobody tell you that you can't do this job. You know, I used to ride around when I was on patrol. I used to go to dice games. Yo, what's the bank? And I would hand out applications. Last story. I got so many, I got a million stories. I I'm I'm in the You be back. I'm in the 8-1 and the day tour, and the Mel guy comes in, and he's got a stack of applications for the next PD test. I didn't know back then you could go to any precinct and pick up an application. And I remember my racist PBA delegate, he grabbed that stack and he said, Oh, man, they don't need this shit here. Ain't nobody over here good enough, you know, for this job. And he took, you know, the room in the back of the desk of the 8-1. Oh, yeah. And he took that stack and he threw that shit in the room where these, you know, they store everything. And I just, I just was bold. And I remember I walked back there and I went in that room and I grabbed half of that stack and I said, I'ma find some people from this neighborhood that's good enough for this job.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:14

You know, because I always had to remind them, I grew up in this precinct.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:18

I lived on Quincy between Sumner and Lewis. I lived on Pulaski between Tompkins and True. We were gypsies because we were poor. We went wherever we had to eat and hot water. You know? And I remember I walked, I took that pile app, that application, and I got an RP, and I rolled around that day. I was breaking up dice games. Yo, you got a high school diploma? You got a you got a felony? Here, fill this out, take this test. And I remember, I'm gonna end it on this. Years later, I'm at the 8-4. I went to get gas. And I remember a rookie walking up to me, and I knew he was new, he had all new leather and everything. And he walked up to me. He was like, hey, you don't remember me? And I'm like, eh, you look familiar, whatever. He said, You used to be in the 8-1. Now I'm a detective. I'm, you know. And he says, You gave me the application. You told me to take this test. You said if you could do it, I could do it. Bro, I almost fucking cried, bro. You know, you know, those are the type of moments that made me keep doing what I'm doing. And, you know, I I would tell anybody, man, everybody, bro, like, yo, listen, you know, don't let nobody discourage you, don't let nobody stop you. You can do this, you can make a difference.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:26

HT, they try to keep you off the job. Instead, you spent nearly three decades making your mark. It's definitely a story worth telling. I'm telling you, I told you before you got a book in you. Just a matter of you telling me, yo, I need to get your aid out with it. Let's get it right. All right, publicists, I got them on deck. Thank you for joining us on Corey's Corner. Your story is much more than just policing. You know what I'm saying? It's about overcoming adversity, confronting discrimination, surviving some of the life's toughest challenges, being shot and surviving, and refusing to allow others to define your future. You, my brother from another mother. You already know where my heart stands with you and your family. I love you, my brother. Thanks again for pulling up on Corey's Corner.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:12

I love you too, brother. And I love you for being you and never changing, man.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:16

Never.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:17

For real.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:18

For our listeners, if you found value in today's episodes, make sure you follow, subscribe, and support. This has been another episode of Corey's Corner. Until next time, keep pushing, keep striving. And always remember it's not about where you start. It's always about where you finish. I'm Corey Peggeese, and I always keep it right, not real. Wants a cap, let it not get one thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:46

Once a cat.