Why “Special Needs Ministry” Isn’t Enough with Rebecca Wall

E17—Is your family welcome at church? If Sunday mornings leave you more exhausted than encouraged, you’re not alone. Rebecca Wall, Executive Director of With Ministries, joins Amy Julia Becker to explore why so many disability families are leaving church—and the small, practical changes that can create real belonging. Find (or help build) a community where people with disabilities aren’t just accommodated, but welcomed.

Ask Me Anything: Record (or email) your question for our upcoming Ask Me Anything episode: amyjuliabecker.com/qr/

00:00 Creating Welcoming Church Communities
04:43 Models of Disability Ministry
07:31 The Role of Church Size in Inclusion
10:28 Separate Programming: When and Why?
13:35 Transitioning to Integration
16:21 Finding the Right Church for Families
19:42 The Heart of Belonging in Churches

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

• With Ministries: withministries.org
• Barriers to Belonging: The Church Experiences of Families of Children with Disabilities | Erik Carter 

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WATCH this conversation on YouTube: Amy Julia Becker on YouTube

SUBSCRIBE to Amy Julia's Substack: amyjuliabecker.substack.com

JOIN the conversation on Instagram: @amyjuliabecker

LISTEN to more episodes: amyjuliabecker.com/shows/

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ABOUT OUR GUEST:

As Executive Director of With Ministries, Rebecca has spent more than a decade at the intersection of education and parachurch ministry, equipping leaders to transform their churches into places where every person is known, valued, and truly belongs. Through her vision and catalytic leadership, she has helped congregations across the country move from surface-level inclusion to authentic belonging, reflecting beauty and wholeness. Rebecca’s work continues to inspire a movement toward churches that don’t just welcome but flourish, through the participation of every member of the community.

@withministriesorg (instagram), withministries.org (website), With Ministries (FB)

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Take the Next Step is produced in collaboration with Hope Heals. Hope Heals creates sacred spaces of belonging and belovedness for families affected by disabilities to experience sustaining hope in the context of inclusive, intentional, inter-ability communities. Find out more about our resources, gatherings, and inter-ability communities at hopeheals.com. Follow on Instagram @hopeheals.

Transcript

Note: This transcript is autogenerated and does contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

Amy Julia Becker (00:06)
I'm Amy Julia Becker and this is Take the Next Step, a podcast for families experiencing disability. We've teamed up with our friends at Hope Heals to bring you weekly conversations with fellow parents, therapists, and disability advocates about practical ways to cultivate a thriving future for the whole family. Here at Take the Next Step, we see your family as a gift to our society and to your local community. Your family matters. Your child matters.

We need you among us. Research shows that families affected by disability care deeply about a life of faith, both for parents and for children. Research also shows that most families affected by disability have decreased involvement in a faith community. If you are one of these families, this conversation is for you. Today, I'm talking with Rebecca Wall, executive director of With Ministries.

with ministries equips leaders to transform their churches into places where every person is known, valued, and truly belongs. And if you are coming from a faith community that is not a church, we also really welcome you into this conversation about how to find and help create faith communities of true belonging. For everyone here, I hope you will find some practical steps to take and some encouragement, some personal encouragement for your family from this conversation today.

Rebecca Wall, thank you so much for being here today.

Rebecca Wall (01:39)
So excited.

Amy Julia Becker (01:41)
So you have worked with hundreds of churches to help facilitate congregations that welcome and fully include people with disabilities. you know, I would love to just start by hearing about a church where this is happening, even if it's not a perfect scenario. Could you just describe something like that for us?

Rebecca Wall (01:59)
Absolutely. I think a lot of the churches we work with right now, I'm so thrilled that they're doing something. And those small steps toward inclusion are really important. But over the last two years, we've worked with the church in San Antonio that really has worked on the culture of their church. They've prioritized conversations congregational-wide, ⁓ staff-wide to really make this a priority and at the forefront of planning and thinking and...

the best accessible things they can do so that all people can worship together. So that has been huge and beautiful to see the commitment there. And then also they've adjusted their spaces so that children with disabilities can worship next to children. And it was small changes that they made in those spaces, like covering the lights or adding extra seating or providing supports. But now it's facilitating opportunities for peers to be with peers.

And then they had an adult service already going for people with disabilities to worship on Sunday mornings, but they are now shifting that time to where there are weeks that they are going into a broader community for worship and they've made changes in that worship service to make that possible. But then there are some Sundays they're still worshiping just as their community, but to see them intentionally taking steps toward what we call withness, with ministries, that being with one another, ⁓ it's been really beautiful.

to watch those just small changes really lead to transformation.

Amy Julia Becker (03:30)
What do you think like accounted for those small changes? Obviously there was some desire on the part of their leadership, families, like where did the desire for change come from and how much kind of outside help and guidance did they need?

Rebecca Wall (03:47)
Yeah, I think a lot of times it's really asking and advocating in their church, which I know is exhausting to do. And we want the church to be the people to move toward first. But a lot of times it's been families or for a lack of failure on the church's end that they realize, gosh, we are not prepared. And so we're gonna reach out to an organization that will help us get prepared.

So this church worked closely with us for a little over a year and implemented our educational framework and went through our training and made the necessary steps and changes. But I think the heart of that church was so ready and so willing and so intentional that that is 70 % of the battle ⁓ is that willingness to make changes as opposed to working really hard to create something separate. And so it's been really beautiful.

to watch that whole congregation make the effort and they were just ready. And I think a lot of that is just honestly dependent on the Holy Spirit and eyes being opened. And so a lot of times families have a part to play in that, is great, but also hard.

Amy Julia Becker (05:02)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, and that's part of what we want to talk about here today is, yes, there's a role for families to play, but also trying to minimize the sense of families being responsible for their churches becoming places of belonging, but instead being willing participants in what often is a transition that needs to happen within a church. And so let's move to that. There are different models of what people call disability ministry.

and different ways those might function. And I thought you would be the perfect person to describe those models for us. And then if you can do that, I'll then maybe follow up with a few questions about it.

Rebecca Wall (05:41)
So there are, I'd say four primary models that we see out there. The one I'm seeing the most would be called kind of a specialized or separate disability ministry that is a separate space for kids. It's designed for kids with disabilities or adults with disabilities at a place to go on Sunday. so supports are in there, trained volunteers are in there, and it's a time dedicated to just people with disabilities. There is

integrated, an integrated model which at With Ministries we really work with churches on, but it is creating spaces where everyone can be together. So making changes in your main congregation, in your main worship services, small groups, children's ministry, youth ministry, but to focus on full inclusion so that people are side by side. And usually you'll hear churches say they have a buddy system.

And that is where integration really can happen, is when you have the necessary support, either from an adult or the youth staff or kids staff or the community that is going to make that accessibility possible. There is also kind of a hybrid model where churches, and I see this a lot in the large churches that have space, but there might be separate spaces for people with disabilities to go if that is a need.

that they also really prioritize integration first. so, seeing churches really move toward integration and if that's not possible for a day, a week, a month, a season of someone's life, if it is better for them to find a separate space, that that's possible in that church. And so, there's kind of a choice there, which is a great.

a great option. And then the last one would be reverse inclusion. So that's where the child or the teen or the adult with disability is in a separate space, but you are bringing their neurotypical peers in to be alongside of them on Sunday mornings. And so we have seen, we've seen that happen. really does help foster relationships, but again, it kind of keeps the individual with disability separate from the rest of the body.

Amy Julia Becker (07:53)
That's really helpful. ⁓ And it's interesting. I have so many questions from what you just said. One is just, ⁓ do you see a difference in terms of size of churches in terms of what works and what doesn't? Or is that really not ⁓ relevant to these different models?

Rebecca Wall (08:15)
I I would say I see kind of churches bending a certain way based on their size. I think smaller churches typically are in smaller buildings, which means there's less options for rooms, which means they're forced to do integration from the gate. the church I go to, like there is not an option to have a separate room. And so we are figuring it out the best that we can. And so I'd say smaller churches are usually just naturally doing integration.

from the gate because there's no other option. Larger churches, I think, are going to see more families ⁓ and they might feel like creating a separate space for the dozens of kids or the dozens of teens is the best option. So I would definitely say I see churches bending a certain way, but I am seeing a lot of churches really move toward hybrid that maybe did have a separate space. They are really starting to in toward

know, toward integration and toward inclusion.

Amy Julia Becker (09:16)
So to that point, ⁓ is there ever a place that you see as like really positive for separate programming? I'm thinking about things like a respite night for families that I a lot of churches do here in Connecticut anyway. Our daughter just participated in Night to Shine. have different.

thoughts on that. She loved it, would love to go back next week. I also talked to her next year. I also talked to her about it and she was like, yeah, I don't really understand why my typical friends weren't invited. So anyway, I'm just curious, is there ever a place for separate programming and what might that place be?

Rebecca Wall (09:51)
Yeah, I think there definitely is a time and place. think just like young moms like to gather and be together based on season of life and experience. Single people like to do events together. Aging adults like to do things together. I think there are a lot of people with disabilities that love to do things together. Just simply study God's word, ⁓ do Special Olympics, be at a social event together. I do think that's

from what my friends say, like a desire of theirs to have a community with other adults with disabilities, I just hope churches have more options for inclusion across the board so that there are many choices. And if an adult with disability chooses to go to a separate event, they still have the choice for women's Bible study. They still have the choice for the retreat. They still have the choice for...

the potluck. They still have the choice for the fall festival with the rest of the congregation instead of the choice being separate. So I definitely think there's a place, respite is a huge need for families and I think to have a safe place where parents feel comfortable taking their kids for a few hours meets a huge need. We just got researched back from a study with Baylor, our partner, and we

found that parent exhaustion is one of the top barriers for families to enter into the church space. And so that is Sundays, that is Fridays, but I think if you can meet that need, that barrier can slowly, slowly go away. But we were talking as a team yesterday, you know, about this research and what we're studying in the exhaustion. And my teammate that is a parent of a son with Down syndrome just said,

It's really hard. Like it's really hard to advocate everywhere. And the last place I want to show up where I'm supposed to be getting my soul fed and community being known and to have a chance to worship God, I in turn am having to fight and advocate and I leave more exhausted than I entered. And so a great way for a church to show, show that they care and they want to support families is for sure a tangible way like respite. So.

I definitely see separate opportunities great, but I really want more options out there than there currently are.

Amy Julia Becker (12:13)
Well, and tell me if I'm wrong. What I'm hearing you say is two things here. One is that for churches who are set up for this, and this might take some work, and we'll talk about that in a minute, to assume integration, like to assume that ⁓ young adults with disabilities are not just welcome, but belong in the Bible study or the social gathering or whatever, the worship service. And if there is a need for a separate space that is not

contrary to that assumption, but it is still like, let's base this on an assumption that we belong together. And then also I think that idea of like, sure, respite night is great, but like Sunday morning, if Sunday morning's a fight, then ⁓ a respite night is not gonna help. So again, concentrating on what would it mean for Sunday morning to be a time of ⁓ rest and peace for this family ⁓ and how can the whole church ⁓ be a part of that?

I guess let's talk about churches. What I've seen a lot of in larger churches is vibrant and like again, positive in many ways, separate programming for kids and adults with disabilities. And I think many of these programs actually are getting to a place where they're saying, wait a second, like the whole church is missing out on what we get to have here. Like in this community, we should be integrated. And yet going from

kind of a vibrant ministry over here to an integrated church also seems like a big hurdle, both in terms of like, kind of heart posture and programming decisions. So how would you get started if you wanted to move from a more separate model to a more integrated model?

Rebecca Wall (13:58)
Yeah, I, when I was thinking about this, there are just kind of five steps that I thought about. ⁓ One is something we always tell churches, build a team. It can't be one person's thing to champion and to own. It needs to be staff members, people with disabilities, family members of people with disabilities, key volunteers and experts. But to build a team, to just start evaluating what your church currently has, what's working, what could be better. And then

to look around the table and say, we're committed to this, like is a great first step. After that, I would say two conversations are imperative. One from the stage and within peer environments, just communicating this is a priority to our church and why. And we are gonna as a whole church move toward this. We're gonna as a whole youth group move toward this. We're gonna as a whole fourth grade class move toward this.

We're going to have conversations about that to prepare the body for the changes that are coming, the great changes that are coming. ⁓ The other conversation would be with the family, the child or the adult, maybe everyone in the same space, but to figure out what supports are needed to make the transition out of the separate space happen. Is that a social story that is needed? Is that designated seating? I know someone...

chronic illness that just needed a rocking chair instead of the hard pew. And so it's like, what is needed so that you can come into the sanctuary with us? it visual schedules? Do we change how everybody transitions? Like what is needed for this child, this teen, this adult, this family? So those are two conversations that I think need to be had. And then you've got to actually make changes to the current environments based on what you find out. And so if that's lowering the lights, lowering the volume.

figuring out different transitions like I kind of mentioned earlier, the movement will be small, but it has to be meaningful and intentional. And so you can't just think what's working now for your church and for the 300 kids you're serving can stay the same. There are gonna probably need to be changes and they're often very, very small. From my experience when working with churches, they are very small changes, but they're hugely important.

And then kind of the last thing, that transition I think is based on that child, that teen or that adult and their pace, what's gonna work for them. But the hope that eventually you get to a place where that teen or adult or child is next to their peers, worshiping God and studying God's word and being known and joining in the potluck, whatever that is that belonging ⁓ happens. And so I think there are people that...

could jump from the separate space and go straight into the integrated space with like very little preparation. And there are some people that might need to take it 10 minutes at a time over a couple of months. But I think you make those changes based on that person. So I'd say building a team, having the conversations that God have, making actual changes for that to be possible, and then going at the pace of the individual to introduce a new environment.

Amy Julia Becker (17:14)
Yeah, that's great. And so, I mean, this conversation has obviously been ⁓ in somewhat contrast to some other conversations I have on this podcast, not only for families, but also for church communities to be thinking about this. But I'm now thinking from the family perspective for families who have a child with a disability who are looking for a church, what should they be looking for if you are able if you've moved to a new area or if you've been someone who has had that sense of exhaustion and so just has not been in a church context for a really long time?

What are some things to look for?

Rebecca Wall (17:46)
That's a great question. I would say if it's on their website or you see presence on social media, that shows a certain level of commitment that that church has. Most churches that are serving individuals and families with disabilities aren't communicating anything online. So ⁓ there are probably churches in your area that are doing this. But if it is communicated online, that means that is a priority. And so...

We talk a lot about that with the equipped churches on how to do that online. But I would say look at the website and you could probably tell a lot. I would say if and when you meet with the church, ask about training or adults trained. Is disability talked about in that training? Is there, mean, I just, cause I'm overly cautious about all things. Like is there abuse prevention training, emergency training? Like how prepared are people in this church to welcome?

your child, teen or adult with disability, a willing heart, if you ask for something and they say, you know what, like we don't have that today, but we're willing to figure this out with you. Like that's, like I said, 70%, I believe of the battle is just, they willing to get to know you and willing to work with you? And I pray that's the case. I know a lot of wounding happens when willingness is not present. And then lastly, I would say communication. I think

Every person wants to know that their presence mattered. And so is that church following up with you afterwards to ask how it went to get some time to get to know you better, to continue working with you to make Sunday the best day that it can be for your family? I think if they communicate afterwards or the day of like. What is possible? And I think I had even on Sunday, a family showed up unexpectedly with their four year old with autism and. ⁓

She just was telling me everything and anything I could ever need to know so fast. And I just grabbed her by the shoulders and I said, we are so glad you're here. We've got this. We know how to love and make today great for your son. Thank you for the information. Go worship. I don't think I've ever been hugged so tight in a very long time because it was just the like, we've got you and we will follow up after today to see what we can do better for next week. But for today, we've got you. ⁓

And I just think so many families need to hear the willingness and the excitement and the follow up is huge. So I would look for that in churches. And I pray that you find it.

Amy Julia Becker (20:20)
Right, right, right, We're coming to a close. I have a couple things I want to say. One is just I want to ask one more question about at the beginning when we were talking about kind of the San Antonio church where things are working and then at the end when you just described the idea of a willing heart, like you mentioned at the beginning, a heart posture of the whole church where like if you're a pastor of a church or if you're a person in some sort of influence within a church,

Where does that heart come from?

Rebecca Wall (20:52)
That's a great question. think we are seeing a lot of favor when we get in front of pastors and that might be at the request of a church member or somebody that knows us. But I think when we get to cast the vision that with has of people being with one another and seeing our brothers and sisters with disabilities as equal image bearers and co-laborers for the gospel.

Like I think that vision just has been lacking in churches and it's either intentional or unintentional. Like we will never know, but I just think when you're faced with the research that is coming out, that one in two families are leaving the church and that faith is more important to families post diagnosis than it was pre diagnosis. And you have attendance declining after diagnosis. Like when pastors hear this, they care about people deeply.

And they want people to meet Jesus and to be discipled. And I think when their eyes are opened to the reality for families with disabilities, I see that the heart change. I just think there has been such a lack of information for them. I think families haven't been at church because they've been so deeply wounded time and time again that they're not necessarily coming face to face with.

families impacted by disability. And so I think that I tell people all the time for families listening, like it takes an immense amount of risk for you to risk the wounding, risk for things not going well, ⁓ to risk being turned away, to risk, you know, a few months of Sundays being really hard. It's also going to take that equal amount of risk for these pastors and church leaders to do the work, to do the changes.

And it's worth it. But when both people risk and both people come to the table for the betterment of the entire church, like that's where the flourishing I see comes from. And that's where we can start changing those statistics, I believe.

Amy Julia Becker (22:57)
Thank you. And I share a belief that ⁓ we, the whole church actually becomes not only like a more fun and true, like welcoming environment for everyone, but ⁓ also a place that better reflects like who God is ⁓ when we are like fully integrated across these kind of ability lines that we have in our culture. And so it's not

I talk all the time about how if you're a good church goer who does not have a disability, you can think about including people with disabilities as like a good thing you can do to please God or something, as opposed to the like best thing you can do for yourself for completely self-centered motivations. know, like just like a true blessing for everyone involved that is not about charity. ⁓

or even about justice as much as I believe that it is like a just thing to have us all together, but there's just a ⁓ blessing available that most people don't know about. So I know we're at end of our time. I just want to repeat a few things you've said, just that sense of, and again, this is not just for families, but also for pastors and for lay people within churches that having a church with an assumption that people with disabilities and their families belong in our churches and belong in fully integrated ways,

but also being really willing to say we might have to take small steps to become a church where that is possible. There are resources for that. If you are a family looking for one of those churches to look on the website, see what there is that ask some questions and look for willing hearts. I think what you just said, this goes on both sides, that risk and reward and that sense of ⁓ looking people in the eyes, knowing them by name and

saying we want to walk with you. ⁓ It goes a long way for all of us and we can do that for each other. So thank you for the work that you do for just even the ⁓ language of witness. personally and our family are so grateful for that and I know that there are again hundreds of churches who are as well. ⁓ So yeah, we really appreciate you being here today. Is there any final thing you want to say to the families who are listening?

Rebecca Wall (25:14)
that's a great question. think just that I'm really hopeful. Like I am out there on the front lines meeting with these church leaders and these pastors and and change is happening and I am seeing it. And so if you have not been to church for a very long time, I will pray with you that you will find one. But I am hopeful for the movement that I'm seeing and the heart changes that are coming. And so there is hope for our churches to reflect the fullness of the kingdom of God more.

And I pray that is the case because of the work you're doing, Amy Julia, and the work that with us doing and so many other great people out there. But change is happening. So there's a lot of hope.

Amy Julia Becker (25:53)
I love that. Thank you, Rebecca.

Rebecca Wall (25:55)
Thanks

Amy Julia.

Amy Julia Becker (26:01)
Thanks so much for joining me here at Take the Next Step. This show is produced in partnership with our friends at Hope Heals, a nonprofit that creates sacred spaces of belonging and belovedness for families affected by disabilities to experience sustaining hope in the context of inter-ability communities. We are gathering your questions for an upcoming Ask Me Anything episode, which means we want to know what you are curious about. What are the questions that you have about

what it looks like to move towards a good future within your circumstances. What do you need to hear more about? What do you need us to discuss? We would love to hear from you. You can click the link in the show notes to record a question or to send it by email. We also have some great upcoming conversations for you. I will be talking next week with Emily Longino about behavior as communication and how we can better understand behavior as a means of communication.

I'm also going to be talking with Pam Harmon about spiritual direction for parents of kids with disabilities. I'm going be talking about hope and joy in the midst of disability and also the grief that can accompany disability for various reasons. As always, I am going to ask you to rate, review, follow this show, let other people know that it's out there, share the conversation with people who could benefit from it. And of course, please send suggestions my way.

The link to text me is in the show notes. You can always email me at amyjuliabeckerwriter at gmail.com. To conclude, I want to thank Jake Hansen for editing this podcast and Amber Beery, my assistant, for doing everything else to make sure it happens. Thank you for being here and for listening. I hope you leave this time with encouragement to start with delight, connect to community, and take the next small step toward a good future for your field.