HVAC ADHD Vodcast Episode:15 || With Guest John Ellis || Mastering Indoor Air Quality

Episode 15 – Indoor Air Quality, HVAC Strategy & the Power of Testing with John Ellis

In this episode of the HVAC ADHD Vodcast, we sit down with John Ellis to explore one of the most important—and often misunderstood—topics in the HVAC industry: Indoor Air Quality (IAQ).

Jeremy and John dig into the intersection of HVAC, building science, and healthy indoor environments, highlighting why comfort, health, and safety must always take priority over simple efficiency metrics. John shares his approach to training contractors, emphasizing how a solutions-driven mindset and proper testing can transform the way HVAC professionals diagnose and solve indoor environmental problems.

Drawing from years of field experience and consulting work, John explains why many HVAC conversations miss the mark by focusing on equipment instead of outcomes. From thermal comfort and humidity control to ventilation and air mapping, he outlines the foundational principles that every contractor should understand when addressing IAQ challenges.

We dive deep into:
• Why HVAC, IAQ, and building science cannot be treated as separate disciplines
• The three pillars of indoor environmental quality: thermal comfort, humidity control, and ventilation
• Why testing and measurement must guide every IAQ solution
• How mapping indoor environments leads to smarter system design
• Training contractors to think like problem solvers—not equipment installers
• Pricing strategies that reflect the real value of HVAC expertise
• The importance of understanding customer priorities during consultations

John also discusses how the HVAC industry needs a broader shift toward data-driven diagnostics and solutions-based thinking, where testing replaces guesswork and system performance is verified rather than assumed.

Whether you're an HVAC contractor, IAQ specialist, energy auditor, or building performance professional, this episode offers practical insights into how testing, education, and clear communication can elevate both customer outcomes and industry standards.

John's Links:
Website: https://rectorseal.com/dustfree-lp

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/dust-free-lp-?trk=public_profile_topcard-current-company

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right. To start it out, just say your name and the company that you want to be represented by. We just use that for reference for the the producers and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Hey, my name is John Ellis with Dynamic Air Consulting.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Glad to be here. Perfect. All right. Hey everybody, welcome to the HEAC ADHD vodcast. I've got John Ellis here from Dynamic Comfort Consulting. And John's a pretty well-known guy in our industry. Him and I were just at the National Comfort Institute conference this past week. So I'm sure we'll have a couple little pointers to talk about from there. But for the most part, John is the overarching IAQ expert in our industry. So much of our conversation today, as I'm sure much of John's conversations do, is going to revolve around IAQ. Welcome, John. Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Awesome. Well, I really appreciate you uh having me here, and it's a pleasure to be here and always like to talk all things HVAC and IAQ. And uh just uh, hey, for context, HVAC, building science, and IAQ, indoor air quality are inseparable. And I like to think that they are the trifecta of us building and maintaining better environments.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Absolutely. I always say this the, you know, when I came into the industry, the big conversation in the home performance world was efficiency, right? That's what everybody wanted to talk about, and they wanted to talk about payback and all this other stuff. But the real conversation, I think, is the comfort, health, and safety, and then the efficiency. Yeah, those are all synergistic things, but if we give them the comfort and the health, then the efficiency should come along with that if they're doing it the right way. That's the way I've always looked at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Yeah, and you know what, to your point, Jeremy, I I when I go on on a consult, right? And uh whether it's uh a comfort or it's indoor air quality, I have some cards and they say safety, health, comfort, and efficiency. And on the back of the cards is a little description of what each of those categories are. And I and I give them to my customer during our conversation. I said, Hey, you know what? Can you have a look at these cards and you can can you place them down in the order that is most important to you and your family? So I can make your priority my priority and furthering the conversation. And almost always, like 95% of the time, they go down safety, health, comfort, and efficiency. Sometimes health and safety will be switched, especially if I'm doing an IAQ consult. But you know what? Our industry is so hyper focused on efficiency, and and yes, we need to be good stewards of our resources, and efficiency is important, but if that's not the main focus of your client, and you go in talking efficiency, efficiency, efficiency, you've lost them right out of the gate. So I like to get that out first. That way I can tailor my conversation and my focus to what the customer really wants.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

How often do you see where you go in to fix a IAQ problem and you end up solving some comfort issues that the customer was less worried about, but it gets solved as a default of what you're doing to fix their IAQ in their home? 100% of the time.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah. And uh I have six key principles, or I'll actually say uh called like foundational principles that I like to focus on first as we're going in and doing a consult, if you will. And and that would be thermal comfort. We are in the comfort business, are we not? We sell comfort every day uh in the HVAC world of things. But what a lot of HVAC contractors and the likes don't understand, that anybody who is compromised, thermal comfort can have a whole different meaning than just, hey, I want to feel good in my house. And really, and it's interesting too, people who are compromised can feel pressure differences within their home as well. So thermal comfort and then humidity control, either too much or the lack thereof, right? So we need to control humidity and then ventilation. Let's put the V back in HVAC, right? Ventilation is a very important strategy in both comfort and IAQ. Dilution can be the solution for some pollutions, right? And then as we move down the line, I'd like to look at filtration. Every piece of equipment that we look at should have some kind of filtration uh attached to it. And so, and then after filtration, I like to look at building pressures, and that is huge. As we as we do pressure mapping and moisture mapping and temperature mapping in and in through the house, you know, temperature and pressure are directly related. We we look at infiltration. You know, we want to keep inside in and outside out. So as we're looking at pressures and infiltration rates, you know, when we're doing load calculations in our business, one of the best numbers that we can plug in would be our infiltration rates. Uh, and the only way to do that would be to deploy a blower door and be able to get that number. And then last in that would be pollutant identification and source control. We can't fix what we don't know about. If there's pollutants in the space that are causing problems for our clients and we don't know what those pollutants are, we can't go after them. So if we can identify the pollutant, then hey, we got a pretty good idea where those pollutants may be coming from, whether it's things that we bring into the built space, if it's something that's behavioral, which is always the wild card, of course. And then is it something from outside coming in by way of infiltration? Uh so those are like six key principles. We should be using those in our everyday, day-to-day business in HVAC. And if we can get a handle on that, then we can start talking about other things outside of the realm of those six key principles.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Does that make sense? Absolutely. So you train contractors, right? That's your main, your main bread and butter, or what is tell tell us a little bit about your business model, your personal business model, how you make your money.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Well, sure. So I I've had the the privilege of teaching indoor air quality for Dyken Amana Goodman for the last six years. You know, they approached me and wanted to create a curriculum. And and when they did, I said, hey, I I am absolutely your guy, but I will not stand in front of a group of people or a classroom and and and sell products because that's what everybody else does. You know, products come later. You know, so I said it needs to be the nuts and bolts and science behind IAQ, and it's based on some simple principles building science, building forensics, and indoor air quality from a mechanical point of view. I built this curriculum for the HVAC industry. It's two days, 16 hours, very foundational. There are some topics that I I would like to take a deeper dive. I could spend a whole day on psychometrics. We could spend two or three days on building science, we can we can spend two or three days on the indoor environmental and the discovery process of that, identifying pathogens, bacteria, germs, polls, you know, pollutants. But but it's very foundational and it's been well received. And I've had contractors in the field all over the United States taking, taking the foundation that I've given them and are running with it and doing a fantastic job. One of the other things that I get to do in the past was a business coach and a field service trainer for a company called the New Flat Rate. Now, that is menu pricing, not traditional flat rate, but menu pricing. I had the pleasure with the with the founder, Rodney Coop, at developing the very first and only building science and indoor air quality menu pricing module within the new flat rate that takes all the stuff that we're talking about and being able to help contractors put pricing to that, have a way to uh to present that to a client in a menu format and then get paid for every step of the way. You know, early on in my career, I gave all my testing away. Uh one, I was excited. It's like, whoa, I've got all this new knowledge, I want to put it to use, right? Yeah, and then it was like, well, you know what? Well, I'll I'll make up for it on the back end. And and I had a high closing rate because there wasn't a whole lot of contractors doing what I did at the level I did it. So I had a very high closing rate, but not everybody's as fortunate as that. And so you never really make it up on the back end. And so then this gives you the contractors an opportunity to get paid every step of the way through discovery, through creating a scope of work, and then implementing that scope of work. So that's been very, very rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

So is flat rate like an ERP, just for people that don't know, is it like service Titan or something like that? Or what is it? What is flat rate exactly?

SPEAKER_02 9:26

I okay, okay. So thank you for asking. So traditional flat rate has been good, better, best. I mean, that's kind of the format that our industry and all the skilled trades have used. Most of the time, when you do a good, better, best, you still have to go into your CRM and and pull those options down and build it on site. Kind of kind of a a bespoke uh approach. And for those of you that don't know what bespoke means, it's uh custom. And so a custom thing, but but so there's still that time to to search for the options that you want to put into a a bundle or or a good, better, best, and then hope that the pricing works out and then present it. So, what we've done is we've gotten rid of that. So uh human nature, uh throw out the top, throw out the bottom, and we kind of find ourselves in the middle. A lot of people historically uh have been like middle shoppers where we were a prideful and say, hey, you know, we we deserve better than the bottom, but then we're also logical, I can't afford the top. But if you only have three options, throw out the top and the bottom, that only leaves you with one option. That's still not a choice. You're kind of left with that. Our industry has been a take it or leave it kind of industry for the longest time. You go in, hey, Mr. and Mrs. Homeowner, uh, you've got a problem. This is what it costs, take it or leave it. And you push them into a corner, they feel like they don't have a choice. That leaves a bad taste in their mouth, buyers remorse. You know, kind of doesn't feel good when you're pushed into a corner and not given the choice. Millions of dollars are exchanged hands every day in the food service industry, right? You go to a restaurant, you're greeted with a smile, you're brought to your table, you're sat down, and what's the first thing they do? They give you a menu, right? And then they leave you alone for a minute to look at the menu. At no time does that food service person come back and try to hard sell me on anything. Now they might say, hey, we got some specials today, or they might give you a little push on the desserts, and that's always where I go. But but uh a waiter or a waitress and food service is not a salesperson. Here's our menu, here's what we have to offer. What should we do? And so each repair, we've got thousands of repairs in electrical, plumbing, HVAC service, chimney service and repair. And my personal favorite, which is the building science and IAQ. You diagnose the problem, you follow a process, you get in front of the customer. Hey, you know what? I I found a fault in, I'm a little concerned. Here's what we got. What should we do? And you hand them a menu. 80 our analytics show that 80% of all clients, if only given an option or a choice, will choose something above the basic repair. But hey, thank goodness we have a basic repair because if that's all they can afford, that is fine. So in in in HVAC sales, and I know this is not a sales thing, and we'll we'll get past this for that.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

No, I love it. This is any this is HVAC ADHD, so this is all of it. And uh sales is a big part of it. So this part, I'm I'm actually super curious about how this actually works. Like, is it a software that you guys or is it is a plug-in for the ERP, or how do they how does somebody actually use flat rate? Like, where do they go to get it and all that stuff?

SPEAKER_02 12:45

It it is a standalone and it's app based. So your tablet based. We are fully integrated with Service Titan and House Call Pro. And so once we go through the whole process within the the um uh new flat rate app, one touch of a button, and it all jumps over into Service Titan or House Call Pro. Within other field service CRMs, we have a copy and paste feature, one touch of the button, copy it, and some of it we have like a digital handshake, not a full integration, and it works really, really well. And so the that's that's the premise. And if if only given the option, hey, here's here's here's an analogy I like to make. If if you're gonna go around town and you're going to diagnose problems, and let's just use a capacitor for, for instance, and if you're gonna sell a capacitor for$350, whatever that may be for your marketplace, that's fine. I call that a cheeseburger. So if you're gonna run around town slinging cheeseburgers all day long, every day, all day, today, tomorrow, next month, next year, that's fine. If it fits your business model and you have if you know your numbers and you have your profit, your profit and revenue built into that, well, that's fine. But you know what? If you don't have the lobster filet mignon on your menu, how many are you gonna sell?

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yeah, zero. If you don't ask, you never get to sell. I mean, that's what's everything. Yeah, zero.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

And so our philosophy is built on honesty, integrity, common sense, right? Yep, you never do any less, right? Do what you say, say what you're gonna do, right? And and then each each option as we go up, there's five, will be the basic plus, then it'll be plus, plus, and then when we get to the top, it's all the bells and whistles, everything is there. I mean, we if they choose our platinum auction, right? And and and I get pushback all the time. It's like, oh John, how can you sell a capacitor for thirteen hundred dollars? It's like, I'm not selling a capacitor for thirteen hundred dollars, I am selling a platinum service that includes a capacitor. You know what? If the mag contactor's out, it's gonna include that. I'm gonna do electrical wire termination restoration, I'm gonna go ahead and clean that up, clean that condensing coil, I'm gonna bring that thing back to as best as I can with the time that I'm allotted. So if you were to unpack that, right? And you say, okay, if we did one unitary service, or we only did the capacitor and we came and did that and left. And then we came back and did the the mag contactor and left, and we came and cleaned the connecting coal and left. That that all added up would be a lot more than just choosing that platinum option and doing it all because I'm already there. So in in in in sales in general, so we we all know in our industry the value of what we do. I mean, our industry uh has also been commodity driven. All you need is this, Mr. and Mrs. Homeowner. All you need is this, and your problems will be solved. Well, if all I need is this, what don't I need? I don't need you because I can get this on Amazon and I can go to YouTube University and learn how to put it in. So we need to take our focus off of this. My knowledge, expertise, and experience is what allows me to bring this to life safely, right? And being able to diagnose that that's where the value is. And we need to we have a have a paradigm shift and and be not commodity driven because I can get I can get a capacitor anywhere. I could probably walk into Home Depot and get a capacitor, right? So we need to have that that kind of paradigm shift, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yeah, no, I love it. I love it. I love that you give somebody an easy way to offer the advanced options and put it in a format that is understandable to the customer so that they can easily make a choice whether they want it or not. That's that's a big deal. So I'm I appreciate you giving the explanation of how that works. I think there needs to be more of that. What's the do you know what the cost add-on is to service Titan or something like that?

SPEAKER_02 17:00

So, first and foremost, we are not a pricing company, we are a software and process development company, right? And so the onboarding, we we need to work with each customer. Got it. You you know, most HVAC contractors and skilled service don't even know how much it costs them to put a truck in the driveway for the first hour because the first hour is the most expensive hour. Yeah, they don't even know that. It's like, well, let's start there. They don't know what their billable hour is, they don't know the difference between profit and revenue because they are not the same. And and and and having just some simple KPIs in place to track your numbers, just a couple to get started. Let's get started with just let's watch this. And and then what how much do they need per truck per day? And and then minimize our maximizing each call, and uh fluid dispatching is also a big deal. Don't give a technician their full schedule because little Johnny's got a softball game, or you know, I want to watch uh Monday night football. So they're like, okay, well, I'm gonna try to rush through these one call at a time, let them focus on that call. And I like the I like a concept too. Put the man on the money. If you've got a guy that's really good on working on mini splits, put him on the mini split call, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Seems obvious, right? Aces and places. I mean, that's really like how you should run it, but like it doesn't always go like that. You're right, and that's usually a logistics issue. The the the point you're making about not knowing their money, like I do a lot of of working with contractors to try to help them integrate home performance and other things into their systems, and we always run into that. Like, they don't know where the money's coming from, they don't know their KPIs, and so like it's a big deal. I actually have a blog article coming out that's talking about stacking KPIs where you start with your basic, you know, what exactly what you're talking about, your basic business KPIs and the in on the HVAC side before we ever even move into the the home performance KPIs, because you can't stack those on top of the the business ones until you know where the business ones land. You're never going to know how to price home performance properly if you don't know how you're pricing the rest of your HVAC stuff. So I love that you made that point because it was very we see we see it a lot, you know, in in these shops.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

So once we uh work with the customer and kind of get all the the business part, the money part taken care of, then we go ahead and we we start with the with the basic option. So we're just a basic repair. How much do you need to make on that basic repair to be profitable? And then we have an algorithm that works the rest of the pricing out as it goes up, and then the cut the contractor always has the option of going into their their dashboard and you know adjusting things as as they go.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

And so you use their actual cost, like you get them to bring all their costs to the table, and you actually work with the business owner to figure out where their real margins are before you implement the software.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Sure. We can break it down by call. We can break it down by truck per day, per week, per month. I mean, the the the numbers just extrapolate out. Uh but but let let's let's just just keep it real simple. Let's look at the tree before we look at the forest, and the rest will take care of itself. And so it's uh been very rewarding. And I go all over the United States and I I work with companies, I put on a uniform, and let's go run service calls. And it's real funny. I've never been a plumber, I've never been an electrician in my life, but you know, in HVAC, we got to know quite a bit about a lot of it. Uh I've had my best successes riding with plumbers and my best numbers. And I'll go out and I'll say, okay, yeah, you know what? I got this call. Let me run this call. And uh, of course, they'll do the work, but I'll run the call. And I've had some of my best numbers come out of working with plumbers in the field. That's pretty it it even amazes me. I had and then more recently, maintenance agreements have been kind of my jam because man, we're in trouble as an industry when it comes to maintenance because we like to give them away. And I like to, I like to I like to help contractors understand there is the value of what we do, and we kind of touched on that, our knowledge, expertise, experience. But then there's perceived value in the customer's eyes. And if those two don't line up, it's a losing battle. And I'll give you, I'll give you one example. We went out to a job and I I think I was in Michigan, and I was working with a young uh maintenance tech, right? And so we go, we do a couple calls, and we get to uh one, I say, Hey, I'll I'll go ahead and run this one. And so we get there, and it all it's fully we're we're scripted and a process from start to finish, from when the CSR answers the phone to you close the call to you ask for a review, everything. It's all there's a process for everything. But we went, we get there and I introduce us and I say, Hey, what brings us out here today? And and they're like, Yeah, you're here for your maintenance, and you know, can we come in? And we come in, and the lady's phone rings, and she's like, just a minute, and she answers the phone and she says, Hey, can I call you right back? The filter guys are here. That's awesome. How much value do you think in that customer's eyes she had in us being filters changers?

SPEAKER_00 22:20

And can change a filter. Exactly. So there's housekeepers to change filters, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

We can get a housekeeper. So so the value and the proceed value were way, way, way out of whack.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

And so we have to have dialogue and conversation to bring those two back into an alignment. And if you don't address it right then and there, or dress it sometime, it's it's a losing proposition. And so maintenance has kind of been a jam. I've I've presented on how to have a profitable maintenance department. I work with a company in Minnesota, and their maintenance department is catching up to the service department in revenue by following a process with honesty, integrity, and common sense and some training. Right. So that's that's kind of been something that's been kind of a little project of mine. And one of the other things I get to do is I'm a product investor for the new, I mean uh Dust Free and Rector Seal. And uh, of course, I have a product that's out. That's been a lot of fun. And then my own business is dynamic air consulting. I work with clients all over the United States, mostly people who are compromised. And I work with contractors, bring them into the field, I bring my testing equipment, and we go in and we we we do forensics and test test out. We develop a scope of work, and then we'll sit down and have that conversation with the client. They get to watch how this all happens, they get to use my tools in the field and understand what the data is telling them. I mean, we have to be data driven in everything we do, and then and then it's up to them to quote the job because I don't know everybody's marketplace, and I've had great success in that. And so, yeah, there's the elevator version.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah, no, you do a lot, you it's a big ball of wax. The sales thing is super interesting to me because that's one of the biggest weaknesses we find, you know, as far as like knowing your numbers and all that stuff. Like that, that's a that's a whole rabbit hole for a lot of companies. On the IAQ side, when you do your trainings, what is the what is it that you hope the contractors take away from the training? Like, what do you want them to take back to their shops when you do put on the IAQ training for the for the companies?

SPEAKER_02 24:30

So every every technician, every company is at a different place in their journey. Some people have no exposure to it. Uh, I I think if you were to ask most HVAK companies out there what indoor air quality means to them, they're automatically going to associate that to a product, and we know what those products are, and it's automatically gonna be this one, or it's gonna be that one, or it's gonna be the blue lights, right? And that's all they know about indoor air quality, is is these products. And so I we need to be solutions driven and not product driven, and and and then the products will come later. And I also teach you know, our industry is so hyper-focused on selling equipment. If if it again, here's another paradigm shift. If we go in and we focus on IAQ, you will be surprised how many of those types of jobs will lead to equipment changes, equipment sales.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah, but we don't start with that because we need to be in a line, you know, with what the customers' wants and needs are. And so to put this in context, when I had my company in California where I really started to cut my teeth in indoor air quality, my customers came to me with a whole host of compromises. And so that would be cystic fibrosis, it would be COPD. I've had lung transplant recipients, debilitating asthma, Lyme's disease, valley fever, immune oncology, right? All the way down to your garden variety seasonal allergies. And so those were my clients that came to me. And so this is this is real IAQ. The very decisions that I help these clients make, either the quality of life or their very life depend on those decisions. So this is we go in, and and I have a three-step process that I use when I go into a home, kind of a lot like like building science, and and these principles can be applied across all spectrums. Sure. Investigate, analyze, and quote. I AQ. See what I did there? I love that. The investigation is what we call discovery, right? And then out of and then so we have to do all three, got to do them in order. So investigate, gather data, analyze the data, and make decisions to quote that job based on data and not emotions. Within though, that those that three-step process, I have a subset of categories that we put our attention on. That would be air safety and the ability with testing equipment and gathering data to see the unseen. What is in the air, what is in that environment that we can measure and put data to that can only be done with testing equipment because it is invisible to the eye. The second part would be the building safety, and that would be all our building science type of principles: pressure mapping, moisture mapping, temperature mapping, infiltration, right? We look at thermal properties, we look at stratification, we look at stacking, we look at wind, wind stack and mechanical effects. It's the whole house is a system approach. I've been using that for 20 years, and I've been doing go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

I was just gonna say, tell us what you mean. I don't know if everybody knows what you mean by pressure mapping, temperature mapping, and the other thing you said. What do you mean by mapping? Explain that concept a little bit. People talk about it all the time, but I don't think it ever gets explained out loud, really.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Sure, and my terminology might be different because I'm old school, so uh no, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

I I think it's valid. I think it is what I think it is. I just want to hear you say it out loud.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

So another name for pressure mapping would be zonal, zonal pressures. Uh, and and so and and this would be baselining. You know, what is the building offering on its own? And then as we introduce mechanical, what is happening? And and then and when I say mechanical, meaning all available exhaust that's taking air from the space to atmosphere, then we introduce our mechanical HVAC, and and then we see the effects of that. And so when we then we go around and we we can actually map pressure changes within the space that are driven by our mechanical. And uh what a lot of building science practitioners fail to do is being able to early on identify their neutral pressure plane, and then the effect that has by introducing exhaust or even duct leakage will move our pressure plane. If as we watch it move, if our neutral pressure plane, because of duct leakage or exhaust moves up, well then we are going to attack the top portion of that and look for interstitial communication and building leakage atop if our pressure zonal neutral drops, then we're gonna attack the the lower section first because that's gonna be our biggest uh pain point or infiltration rates. And and this, like if we've got an HVAC that's in an attic with duct leakage, and we've got you know most of our exhaust happening upstairs, and that moves our pressure plane up, that's where our attention should go. If we've got a an HVAC in a crawl space with uh prominent duct leakage and some other exhaust, and that moves it down, well, that's where we're our plan of attack goes first. And then we want to address it all, but we can get the our our our biggest impact by by identifying the neutral pressure plane, understanding what the effects of exhaust and duct leakage is on that plane, and then understanding that that's where our prominent uh shell leakage and where we can really make a difference. And so that would be pressure mapping and then moisture mapping. As we look at the effects of mechanical, our humidity is going to move, and then we can understand some of the phenomena that's going on, and then we look at temperature mapping too, and so we uh you hear a lot of a lot of contractors in the building science space as well talk about stack effect. Well, stack is great. I like to look at stratification because stack happens with nothing running when we have convection loops as the temperature changes, molecules expand and contract. We have a stacking effect, but we get stratification once we introduce mechanical. And most of the time that gets discounted, and we can follow humidity and temperature by looking at stratification. And then then we also look at like the mean the mean loads in the house, and that gets discounted as well. People don't understand what the mean load uh or impact is on a space as we're looking at stratification and tracking temperatures.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

So that's how much you mean by mean load. I don't think anybody's gonna know what that. I mean, some people will, but uh okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

So when we look at a house with so we have the the house itself and its orientation, we have infiltration, we got fenestration, we got shade coefficients, we've got occupancy, right? And then we have building the building structure on how it was built, our values with insulation, and all those things come into play while we're trying to build out a load calculation. And and and our infiltration number being one of the most important numbers, uh, but I think that it gets discounted a lot, the mean load in a space, and it's more prominent during heating than it is during cooling. And so if we have a lot of hard surfaces, we've got granite countertops, we've got leather, you know, leather furniture rather than a uh material, right? So, and then we've got you know a lot of hard, hard surfaces. What happens is if we don't design to take that into account to our design, as we're trying to heat that space, we we often are running too high a fan speed. We satisfy the temperature of the air, are sensible, right? Thermostat satisfied, all those hard surfaces absorb the heat. Now the space itself for the occupants is uncomfortable. That's why radiant heating in a floor is so wonderful because we actually address that mean load at the source. And so we need to look at that. And most houses with like carpeting and you know, nice drapery and different things. But if you've got hard window coverings, leather furniture, hardwood floors, or even marble floors, marble countertops, all those things, that is what we consider our mean temperature loads in a space. And it's mostly shows its ugly head during heating. It's like, wow, you know, the the thermostat the thermostat kicks on, the heat runs for five minutes, it turns off, and in three minutes I'm cold. And that that's what the mean.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

So, how do you address that? Like, how do you, as an HVAC contractor, account for that and make sure that you're taking care of the mean load? Like, what's the solution to figuring that out?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Well, in most softwares, there's a place for it. It's it's unnoticed because most contractors don't know to go there. And if you talk to if you talk to Alex or you talk to Ed, they will tell you that it there is a place for it. And and they've talked about the mean load several times.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Uh, but it's just you know it's a big topic. I mean, Alison Bells has written about it. I've actually mentioned it in some things. I mean, it matters a lot, but for an HVAC contractor to be able to discern what that is and know what to do about it, it's a whole different thing.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Sure, and it has to do with surface area. And so again, we we have so much on our plate that we need to learn. And you know, if you're not doing low calcs, just start.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

That's one place to start for sure. Conduit tech, handle, quick model, whatever it is, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:40

As your journey continues, you know, there uh I find it interesting. A lot of a lot of uh contractors will do a manual J and they'll do a block load, and then they'll go right to a manual D. It's like, oh, wait a minute. How'd you do that? Was that magic? Yeah, and then it's like, well, you you probably should have a block load's great just to get your get started. So equipment sizing, right? I mean, you can use a block load pretty confidently for equipment sizing, yeah, but then you need to do your manual s because you need to know what your extended fan performance data is going to be, and then you need to set your fan to your sensible heat ratio and not just your nominal 400 cfm per ton and knowing we're or 0.7, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

So there's a manual manual J, right? And then manual S for our equipment selection, then we can go manual D, and then you know whatever what else everybody leaves out? Manual T because they don't understand our termination points will gobble up some of your static pressure budget in your duck design. And if you don't allow for it, you're gonna be in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Make sense? To me, it does. Um I'm moving it makes sense to everybody else. Nah, but your your your first point is is very valid. Like these guys need a starting place. Like, where do we start with all this? Like, how do we start doing it? And starting with a load calculation is gonna give you a lot of information about the house if you do it right. If you're not using defaults, if you're walking through the house and you're doing the discovery that it takes to do a real load calculation, a lot of the things that you're there to combat will be exposed by doing that load calculation if they do it correctly, because they're gonna have to look inside the house and have blower door numbers and things like that to really get a good solid, precise load calculation in the software. So if they take the time to do the discovery, I mean, I think that it starts to expose a lot of issues that you're talking about, and as long as they know what to look for, they can start there.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Sure. And looking at your installation, I mean, even so in my career, I was a HERSRA in California, but I was also a QII HERSRA, which is quality insulation installation. So I would go behind insulation contractors and look at their work. And man, it's a it's just as much of a train wreck as our industry is. Oh, 100. I'm on yeah, even brand new looking at the paper says R30, you automatically it's devalued because if it's not installed properly, gaps and voids and different things, it's devalued right out of the gate. So you can't rely on on just that. So have understanding what that means when you're looking at R values. I I had to fail so many contractors because they would do a pony wall adjacent to an attic with R19 because that's what's in the all the other walls. I'm like, no, no, no. This wall is no different than the ceiling because behind it is your attic. Yep. And so that wall needs to be R30, just like your ceiling, and they they couldn't get it, they couldn't get it, and I have to fail the job, and then they'd be back I know.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

I've been a Hearse Raider for many, many, many, many years, and every other kind of raider, too. And I can tell you right now that if the in somebody's not watching these guys when they're installing it, almost 100% of the time you're gonna have to tell them to redo something. Like, and we used to tell people it should look like your bed just got made. The blanket was pulled tight in the attic, and you tuck the sheets into all the corners, and you can just look across the top of it, and you can look at your attic rollers and see where it's supposed to go all the way across. If it doesn't look like that and it looks like this, like the bed didn't get made, and somebody's laying under the covers, then you probably got problems and you need to fix it.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

I mean, that's one of the you know and the same thing goes with batting. If it's not touching all five surfaces, like what do you mean five surfaces? Well, you got the two studs, you got both ends in the ceiling. That's five. And that insulation needs to be in contact with all five of those those surfaces to work properly. And so and that can all be exposed with a with an infrared camera. I mean, we do it all the time.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Blower door and infrared is one of the best diagnostic tools you you can have. I mean, it's gonna show especially if you get a good enough temperature differential outside. You even if you don't, you can still see it with the blower door, but air, a lot of people don't realize air is moving at a different temperature than the rest of the building. So when we start moving air through a building and we look at it with an IR camera, we can see that pretty good. I've exposed a lot of problems in homes using that methodology.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Sure, and and just convection loops within a whole within a home, within a home, within walls, uh, within inestitial cavities. I mean, things are always moving. You know, it took me a minute when I first started doing blower door testing, and I'd go in and I'd baseline a house, it's just me and my blower door and my antenometer. All the doors and windows are closed, nothing is running, and I'm looking and I'm like, I am negative four pascals. It was a head scratcher, and I'm making phone calls. Like, how could this be? Convection loops, John, convection loops. As as things warm up and start moving, right? Pressure difference in an opening. Oh, yeah. And the convection loop causes the pressure difference, and there's openings everywhere. And and so that was uh that was one of the aha moments when I started doing uh I had it as well, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Yeah, it makes you just I mean, and it's so you know what's cool is now being able to watch guys have that same moment when you put the blower door on and you put an IR camera in their hand in their hand and and they start realizing why they're feeling what they're feeling or why things are moving like they're moving, or the problems are like, oh, you see it with your own eyes, and you know, it's the same way with homeowners too. Like you let them experience that stuff for themselves, they have those moments, then you really sold them on what you're doing because they feel like they had a hand in discovering the problem in their own home.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Yeah, yeah, and that's why I like the when the guys come out, it's like I like them to hold the tools, use it, you know, tactile, absolutely aesthetic learning, you know. And I had a contractor call me just yesterday from South Carolina, Spartanburg, and he I that he had taken my class. I did it privately. They have they're running 45 guys. So I did half their company for two days, half their company for the other two days. He said, John, I took a couple cuss technicians out with me, and I told one of my techs, I go, Hey, hey, go go take that wall plate off the receptacle. And he looked at me like I was crazy. And he took it off. He goes, What do you see in there? He goes, I see spider webs. He goes, Those aren't spider webs, they're cobwebs. And the air was just rushing out of that receptacle plate, and they had a big pressure imbalance. It was an older home, and and that was that was an aha moment. Things are always moving in a in a space.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yeah. I tell you, I think at the um NCI conference, I was on one of the panels and they said, What's your most underrated tool? I said, My bald head is my most underrated tool. I've discovered more air leaks with my bald head than almost anything. I could be put the blower door on and walk around the house and feel where the air's coming. I don't even need the IR camera half the time.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Sure, and then you just get a damp rag and now you got wet bulb. I'm not far behind you.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

I'm pulling that joke out and putting making it a meme right there. I'm gonna make that that that clip a meme. That's hilarious. My bald edit is wet bulb.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Well, you know, I I I use this illustration, so I'm like dry bulb, wet bulb, and then I take a rag and wipe relative humidity, right? And then I take a glass of water, dew point.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

That's awesome. Yeah, no, I mean it's great. That's exactly right. That's that's hilarious. No, I love it. All right, we're running up on our time here. I'm gonna ask you the one parting question I ask every guest. If the world ended today and they ask you to write one piece of advice on the wall for the industry, what are you leaving behind for the next generation?

SPEAKER_02 42:37

If you don't test, it's just a guess.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Love it. If you're not testing, you're guessing.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Well, yeah, that's that's uh I that's what NCI is, but I will I'll I I started saying that about the time they started. You know, I joined NCI almost 18 years ago. Uh-huh. I knew I've been using their testing methodology for so long, it's just second nature.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

So if you don't test, it's just a guess. We have to make our decisions based on data. We got to be data driven.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Jeremy, that went by like that. We're gonna have to do this again.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

That was 45 minutes, I think. We talked a little longer than we do on most of them. So I love it, man. We'll have to do it again. And this episode probably won't come out till January-ish, just so you know, because we got a bunch of them in the bank already. So I'll let you know when we start promoting it. We'll send you clips and stuff like that for you to be able to promote it as well. All right. If you want to get another one in the can, let me know. I will do it. We'll do it. We'll figure out what we'll do. This was a good just talk about it. Let's pick a topic next time and then dig into some stuff if you want to.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Oh, absolutely. That's that's where the rubber meets the road.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Yeah. I like these little feel good ones, but my next season is going to be really digging into some of the weeds of the stuff. So I love it. Fantastic. All right, I'll talk to you later, man. Thank you very much. You have a great day.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Play.