Helping Educators address the “Discipline Gap” with an actionable approach

In this episode, Dr. Burkhalter explains her focus on the discipline gap and its importance in education.

• Details
  •  Explains that her doctorate focused on discipline systems, which she found were closing rather than opening doors for students
  •  Noted that college doesn't prepare educators for discipline challenges, focusing instead on instructional piece. 
• Dr. Felicia: Shares how she "failed forward" as a teacher and wanted to support other teachers who were becoming discouraged

Multi-tiered systems of support (MTSS)

• Details
•  Tier 1 as universal supports that all students receive
•  Tier 2 involves small groups and targeted interventions
• Tier 3 provides intensive support like functional behavioral assessments
• Details
  • Traditional discipline involves dictating behavior to student
  • A strong connection to 'Choice Theory" and putting "the ball in the court of the learner".  Students are looking for guardrails but also wanting ownership with concern to their behavior. 
  • Practical implementation steps
• Practical implementation Steps
  •  Start with student focus groups to learn what they need and what their triggers are
  • Involve parents in solution development
  • Listen to staff to determine what they need and will support.  
  •  Analyze data together and having real conversations about what's not working...modify as necessary.

Multiple discipline approaches

Check out the linked resources below to learn more about the specific approaches discussed.  

• Trauma-Informed-Decision Making 
• Positive Behavioral Interventions and Supports
• Responsibility-Centered-Discipline

Contact Info:

Dr. Felicia Burkhalter

Email: feliciaburkhalter1913@gmail.com
http://linkedin.com/in/dr-felicia-burkhalter-674b8817 

#jackeduppodcast #newpodcast #education #knowledgeispower

 #global #professionaldevelopment

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back, listeners, to the Jacked Up Podcast. We're so happy to have you with us today. And Jackie and I were talking, and you know, we've been in education for a while, and I've had the opportunity to work in several different districts and for an agency, and just have met some great teachers and leaders over the years. And tonight we are really happy to be joined by one of those folks who I met, and Jackie worked with a project with the Department of Defense, and we worked together in Germany. And uh so we're really excited to have Dr. Felicia Burkholder with us this evening. Uh welcome, Dr. Burkholder, to Jacked Up Podcast. It's so nice to see you.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Thank you. Great to see you as well, Ed.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

So excited to have you here. We're we're really thrilled. And in this episode, um, I I love that we're gonna center on solutions. That's one of the things we like to talk about is those doable, practical, optimistic pieces of education. And so we're not gonna focus on shame. Um, and we're gonna hear how you share with us kind of those intentional strategies, specifically with discipline systems, which I'm so excited to hear about. How can we empower educators, support student growth, and really transform school culture with um practical strategies? And I love that you shared with us, you know, you want to share some things people can do tomorrow. Um, so we're gonna be real, right? Classroom management and discipline, I think, is one of those parts of our work that is really difficult. And I and in all honesty, I don't think we're really prepared for it. I mean, when I think back to my education, we don't get a lot of training in this area, so it's so necessary and important. Um, and so that's exactly why this conversation matters tonight. And so I'm really excited for you to be here. I think educators deserve tools, not judgment, right? And students more importantly need systems that really help them thrive. So welcome. I'm excited you're here. Um, Ed, give us a little bit of background on her background, her experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Certainly. So, Dr. Felicia Burkholder is the director of secondary schools, student achievement in Virginia, where she leads division-wide efforts to strengthen instruction, discipline systems, and student outcomes. With more than a decade of leadership experience as a teacher, principal, chief academic officer, and interim superintendent, she is passionate about building leadership capacity and creating equitable opportunities for all students. Dr. Burkholder holds a doctoral degree in educational leadership and is committed to developing systems that empower both educators and learners. Outside of her professional work, she is passionate about faith, enjoys mentoring others to lead with purpose, traveling, and promoting kindness initiatives in her community. So again, we are so excited uh to have you with us this mor the this. So close.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

That makes me feel good.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

I said this morning. All right.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Wait, why is it not pausing?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Can we pause that? And I can just pay for it.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

I can pause it.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah. It's like I walked into church the other day, and I usually am at church in the morning, but it was at night. So I said good morning to some guy. I'm like, sorry. Outside of her professional work, she is passionate about faith, enjoys mentoring others to lead with purpose, traveling, and promoting kindness initiatives in her community. And we are so happy to have you with us today, Dr. Burkholder.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Thank you, Ed and Jackie, for having me. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Oh, yeah. So we hear a lot about closing the achievement gap. And uh please talk to us and about how you decided to kind of look at closing the discipline gap and what that whole thing means.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Well, as you will hear as we continue to talk, and Ed, you're familiar with my dialect. I am an educator from the mountains of Southwest Virginia. And um, that's where I first um decided I wanted to follow in my mother's footsteps as an educator. And so um my doctorate, my doctorate degree um that I've recently earned was in my area of discipline, which I was charged with in my division. I've always believed that schools can change lives, and addressing the discipline gap became personal for me because discipline systems should open doors for students. And I found as I moved up the ranks from a teacher to an administrator to a district level leader that it wasn't opening doors for students, it was actually closing doors. And I can admit, as an educator, I was even guilty of it because as educators, we get locked into doing what we do best or doing all that we know to do. And so when you don't have that skill set, you haven't been built to capacity to be equipped to deal with diverse situations coming to you in the classroom because college doesn't prepare us for discipline, it focuses on the instructional pieces. That's where I became passionate about because I had to fail forward. And then as a teacher, I failed. I found out how to come up out of that, but it's easy to do it when you have your own classroom. But then when I shifted to being able to reach a greater capacity as a leader, that's when I was like, okay, I have to find a way to support my teachers because they were becoming discouraged, they were becoming defeated. And so that's where the shift came from me in looking at the data, the numbers, but also hearing the data from my teachers.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

I was just gonna say that's that's critical, right? So qualitative, right? On paper, we know there's gaps, right? But but again, I I can relate to you personally as a teacher, but also in buildings of hearing people's kind of cry for help, if you will, right? And it it's that discipline piece. You know, I know my content, but listen, if kids are throwing desk, it doesn't matter how much I know, how much I planned, right? If we can't get that down. So so I love that that was that shift in you when you got into that leadership position saying this is an opportunity, right? That I can see my staff needs. Um, and so so talk, keep keep going with that. So, so how did leadership um how did you form into that leader and what did it look like?

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Well, I will say, yes, as a leader, you try to stay abreast of current trends and educational practices, but with discipline, I think any educator will tell you you cannot come from theory in isolation on becoming better at honing in on your craft of improving or closing that discipline gap. You really have to get in there and you have to live it. Just like we have to meet the students where they are instructionally, you have to meet them where they are personally. And um, you know how the saying goes, children don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. That's where it starts with those relationships because parents send us the best they have each day. Students are showing up in their best version, whether it's positive or negative. And we can't take it personal. Um, we we have, in order for them to be successful, we have to take a step back, take a deep breath, and meet each day as a new day for ourselves and our students. I think as educators, we give our students grace, but we don't learn to give ourselves grace because we want that perfection, we want to hit that target. And so for me, I just every day try to say, don't require of others what you don't require of yourselves. And if a staff member, even principals feel defeated at times because, oh my gosh, I haven't had a student that's dealing with this type of situation. How do I approach it? I'm not trained for this. And it's really, okay, guess what? Let's sit down, let's have a conversation about what's working for the student, what's not working, and really being honest. You know, sometimes you hear teachers say, Well, maybe there's a personality conflict. Maybe there is because we're looking at triggers, right? So what in the personality? It's not the person. Um, but I think too, we as educators, we get into education because we want to problem solve, right? But we want to solve the problem. And one of the things that I have found and that the research says is pull your stakeholders in. Our parents are part of our stakeholders, but guess what? Our kids are too. And many times we forget to get their input, their say, their voice in the conversation to develop a solution.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

I love that so much. I I agree a hundred percent. Um, that discipline, um, when you talked about the person taking it personal, again, I can relate to that. Um, and I had to learn early in my career that, right, this isn't about me. It is the business of people. We're in the business of people. Relationships matter. And I love that you said that because honestly, it's it's interesting, don't you think, Ed, how many people within our podcasts have talked about the power of relationships with students?

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Absolutely. And that I think that's the big difference between the academic realm and the behavioral, is because you know, the academics, you have a you have a way to teach math, you have a way to teach problem solving in a certain area. With discipline, that might that might change depending on what the child's bringing to school, right? And experiences and and trying to find the best solution for that kid. And it's not going to be the same for for every kid in your classroom. You might need a different approach. And I guess that goes back to what you're saying in terms of getting the kids to uh kind of contribute to what's happening, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Have a say in it, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

I love Ed how you talked about that approach, because again, when we come into education, we think we have to be the problem solvers. But what research says is we need a multi-tiered approach. And when you think about it, like a lot of schools still haven't got there. A lot of divisions still haven't got there, even though under the Elementary and Secondary Education Act in 2015, we were supposed to start incorporating these tiered systems of support. It started with academics. Then in 2016, the federal government said, hey, you need to also look at the behavior because it's impacting the instruction. And so that's an area where schools can also look at or leaders can also look at if they're looking to close that discipline gap. How are we approaching it? And are we taking a multi-tiered approach? Are we finding this one program and trying to make it fit across the board? Are we just doing one thing? Okay, everybody has one set of rules and we're just going to focus on the rules. Well, just like with instruction, we're not teaching to one student. We're teaching to different learning styles. We have to do the same thing with behaviors. And that's what I love about MTSS. It tears those kids out. It forces us to make sure, first at that tier one level, this is what all students are getting. And then after they're getting what all students are supposed to get, then what are we doing next for those kids that need more? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

I was going to ask you that because I think that's one of those things that as educators, we all hear that MTSS and that you know, tier one, tier two, tier three, tier four supports, but it's almost one of those things that you think everybody knows, so you're afraid to ask a question. Like, what is tier one and what's the difference between tier one and tier two and tier three? Can you break that down for maybe a new teacher out there or somebody who has heard those terms, but they really don't know the difference between the different tiers? So the tier one, I guess, would be those universal supports that every child gets. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Every child, even if they have an individualized education plan because um they're a special education student that has been identified, um, whether they're an English language learner, all students, that's tier one, they get universal supports.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Could I just clarify with you and hear your opinion on this? Because from my understanding, tier one should be research-based best practice.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

And the intent is to catch as many as we can, if in fact it is tight. Does that is that your experience, Doctor?

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Yes, and that is correct. And I love how you just asked to reiterate and re-emphasize that because what schools will find most often is that MTSS is a triangle, right? And they'll find out their triangle is upside down because the tier one is not strong. And if the tier one is not strong, then that's what makes everything upside down. And a lot of times there's this misconception that, oh, well, all the students get it except the students with the disability, or except the students that receive some type of additional service. But no, they get tier one too. We want to lay that foundation, we want to strengthen everything for them across the board, academically, socially, and behaviorally.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

And then, as Ed asked, if in fact that doesn't catch, and I don't know, I know for academics they talk about like 80% is what they try to catch, right? Like that if you're if 80% of your learners are being successful on tier one, you're kind of on target with what strategies and what you're doing. Let's say it doesn't work then for that, for for the the rest of the students, 20%. What does that tier two and three look like then? Could you explain how that goes?

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Yes, great question, Jackie. So for tier two, that's when if those kids aren't getting it at the tier one level, then you want to tier them into tier two. And that's when you want to start doing some more some small groups, some targeted interventions, whether you're pulling in um resources or programs or having teachers do targeted small um group with these students. And then tier three, that's that intensive support. So, for example, do we need to conduct a functional behavioral assessment for a student at the tier three level to develop a behavior plan for him or her?

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Um, that's why you said the triangle should be the way a triangle is where the base is the largest, students caught as I move up. If we're doing our job correctly, there should only be a few students at the top getting that really intensive behavioral support, as you mentioned. Maybe that's an individual psychological kind of behavioral diagnosis kind of thing, is what I'm hearing you say. Is that correct? Correct. Okay, excellent. So, so thinking about that, that's within a system. Right? You've worked on implementation, you support people with understanding what that looks like, and you go into districts and you do that. Talk to me about I I was just at a learning forward conference in fall, and one of the keynote speakers made a comment that stuck with me. And and and doctor, when I saw your your session, I'm thinking this is perfect. Um, he said, be soft on people and be hard on systems.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

I love that, Jackie. I'm gonna steal it from you.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Steal it. And just send me a check in the mail. That's what we do in education. We steal, it's all good. You can steal that. So talk to me about, I know from that angle, what has your experience been with implementation, systems, people? How did how do you respond to that?

SPEAKER_03 16:16

So over the last two and a half years, I've been charged with implementing a discipline program in my current division. And what I will say is it takes a system, not a program, to close the discipline gap. The program is one piece of closing that discipline gap. And the reason that I say that is because what I have found, a program is just like a computer. It's only as good as the person using it. And if you're not implementing with fidelity, then you won't close that achievement gap, or you closing the achievement gap will be very limited. And what I have found when programs are not implemented with fidelity, that's where you see the struggle. That's where you see teachers not wanting to really buy into the program. It's not working. But are we working the program first and format for first and foremost, excuse me, as it's asking us to do. And then from there, are we tweaking and revising? Because I believe just like with curriculum, there's no one discipline program to fit all students. You do have to learn the program, and then you have to make those adjustments where you need to meet individual students.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

And that's definitely, I think we could all speak to that, and we've all seen that happen in schools. And uh and again, it goes back to to what you just said. It doesn't matter what program you're implementing, it's gonna fail under those conditions.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

It's a we need t-shirts. I I used to call that the PD cliff versus the cycle, right? Yeah. It falls off the cliff. Seriously. And I love that you talked about that because it reminds me too, another kind of phrase is like like to what extent have we massaged it? Like that's what I right when I talk to Edmund, to what extent have you massaged this program to the point of like what you said, Ed, that I've looked at it, I've refined it, I've let it settle and massage it, right? And refine. But too often we just throw it away, go to the next one, throw it away, go to the next one. No wonder teachers and all of us are just over it.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

And you can tell when you walk in, and you know, we've we've all given uh professional development workshops to staff in different districts, and and you can tell the districts where people aren't supportive because they kind of look at you and they, you know, they're like, here we go again, right? They're rolling their eyes. All right, well, I guess we gotta put up with this guy for for an hour or two or three, and then and then there'll be something else down, you know, next year. Just wait this out, it'll be something else.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

So uh, yeah, go ahead, Doctor. Um, you know, this is the thing. Teachers wake up, administrators wake up, district leaders wake up every morning and they come to work wanting to be successful, right? Nobody most often doesn't want to come to work being successful. And the thing I love about my job is working with teachers and administrators to see their passion, especially when you give them some type of solution or some type of intervention to try after you've sat down and went through the root cause, right? They leave out passionate. I can do this, I'm gonna try this. And so I'll I'll I'll fall off a cliff always saying schools don't struggle because they like lack passion, they struggle because they lack systems. That sustainability is key, and sustainable change requires training, coaching, monitoring, reviewing the data, and leadership accountability, not just that one-time initiative. And that's where the research aligns to say if these components are not happening, then you won't have the sustainability of any program, any interventions you're implementing with discipline, and you will not close your achievement gap at a rate that improves outcomes for students. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Yeah. And it being in the in the realm of school improvement, um, it it it as you I can relate to you when it the the feel of when just like a student when you're a teacher, when the aha moment, it's such a great feel. But we also know there's sometimes resistance, right? There's pushback, there's there's times where you're not welcomed. It's like that, you know. So talk to us a little bit about how you deal with that. In other words, when you feel overwhelmed, when you feel some of those things that you're trying professionally are just not making impact. Um, what's been some of your experiences?

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Well, again, I try not to take it personal, right? Because anytime you challenge traditional discipline, you're gonna face set skepticism. Because again, educators will do what they know to do. They're not doing what they don't know what to do because they want success, they want to get to ensure. Instruction because behavior is impeding them getting to the instruction. You know, some believe stricter punishment equals behavior, but the evidence shows that teaching responsibility and providing supports produce safer schools and stronger outcomes. And that's what I love about the work I'm doing right now. Our focus is not so much on the program, but the key components of the program, which is skill building and allowing the students to build the skills so that they can try to come up with the solution. And as they're coming up with the solution, we try to train the teachers to support the student. Don't give them the solution, but support them towards coming up with their own solution. And I must tell you, it's the most remarkable moments in my day when I see a kindergarten or a high schooler struggle with discipline like they're mad, they've been removed from the classroom, they're pushing back on every avenue that the administrator and the teacher is trying to approach them. But then when you see them start using one of the skills they have, whether at first it's just verbalizing how they're feeling, how it made them feel, their perception, and then to see the dialogue when they're asked, Well, what could you have done differently? Or how can you show me you're ready to go back into class? Because normally think we dictate that. We dictate that. Yes, exactly, Jackie. That's what I was gonna say. We are told you're gonna go back to class, you're gonna listen to your teacher, you're gonna do your work. But what if we stop doing that and we ask them, how do I know you're ready to go back to class? 100%. And they say, Because I'm gonna go back and apologize to my teacher.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

And then it's really it's not a challenge at that point either. It's more like you're giving the child a choice in what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Right? They can stay out here or you can change your behavior and how you can do that, and then you're welcome to come back in class, but then it becomes a choice, not a challenge.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

Correct. We use a sheet, so we scaffold the support.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

So draw out what that would look like. So it may be them, you know, going up to their friend and taking a pencil if they threw the pencil at them. And you know, the thing about building capacity with students to take ownership of their own behavior is accepting sometimes those small wins for them. Because as adults, we like to follow rules, and it's black or white, it's right or wrong. And there's a certain way we want them to enter back then. It's a certain way the teacher wants them to enter back then, or the administrator. But they have to start somewhere if they're gonna start to take ownership. So it could be as simple as taking that pencil back to their classmate. It may not be, sorry, I threw your pencil. Because again, we have to meet our students where they are, and that may not be a skill they use in their home. That may not be a skill they use in their neighborhood. But if you start them there with the nonverbal, then we get them there to the verbal.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah, it it really reminds me of like and Ed, you said the word like choice theory, um, which is so powerful because what I'm hearing you say is that we put the ball in the court of the learner, right? We put the the the ball in their hands. It it's really about this or that. What are you gonna choose versus me imposing? You know, and I think about that as a high school teacher because I would say to my kids, listen, I I can't take you home and then spend the rest of my life walking alongside you and managing you. That's not my job. Why are you asking me questions, Mrs. L? Because I want you to think about the consequence and your choice, right? Because that's so I just it's it's so powerful when we said at the beginning you want to talk about solution focus. It's so it sounds like the work that you're doing is preparing teachers to be able to come at it from that angle. Because that's not an easy thing to do. I mean, I I I heard you the traditional thing is more of you know, I do this onto you and then you behave, you know, I do this and I give you that.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

So powerful because our teachers are on a time crunch, right? Oh, they need to teach. And so it's go, go, go, chop, chop, chop. You know, I'm a taskmaster too. So um it it it to build the skill for students to take ownership of their behavior, it is time consuming. I was gonna say I don't want to mislead that. Yeah, and and and and it's it's hard for an educator to lose that instructional time.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

But we have to build it if we want to get that time back in the end.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, Dr. Burkhold, I'm so glad you said that because I'm thinking of the teacher out there who's like, I don't have time to do that. Like, you know, and and but I think you know, if there are successes out there and they see those and they hear of those successes, and they kind of see that it's going to eventually make their job easier, um, the front-end loading that they have to do is going to make their job, you know, in terms of behavior anyway, that much easier in the long run.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

So what I would tell you, Ed, is and I thank you for saying that, when you're making this shift in your schools or in your classrooms, teachers really do need their administrators' support with this. And sometimes that may be the administrators doing the heavy lifting at first, because as leaders, we learn to lift and push. And so they might have to carry that load. So it may be the building administration taking their ISS rooms, which are traditionally known as your in-school suspension rooms and turning them into your in-school solutions room. And that's not a burculturism, that is from responsibility centered discipline. And so where students are traditionally pulled out of class and they're put somewhere to sit and to do their work that they're not doing in class, instead of doing that, let's have them take ownership in that space, come up with a solution and get them back into their classroom in their learning environment with their instructor, with their teacher leader.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

So I know I know of schools where students actually can go to a room like that, um, you know, not not on their own, but with the permission of the teacher, but they can decide for themselves that they need to kind of step away and spend a little time there and get the support they need and then come back.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

I love that. Going back to choice for the student.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Yeah, it's evolved into that.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Yeah, and with that, hearing that you talk about leadership, like again, that's a mindset. So, I mean, I assume you do a lot of upfront work with leaders, just having those intentional conversations about because the traditional is that's out there a lot, right? The ISS that it's a holding tank, you know, becomes you just sit there with your earbuds on and you go back to the classroom versus what you're talking about. So I'm assuming you do have to do some of that upfront work with the leaders themselves to kind of see where their heads are at exactly right, and just kind of being the leaders then of the building of what this looks like and buying into that um perspective.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

And I would assume with that support, the teachers are you know gonna jump on board more quickly than they would otherwise because they know they're being supported on the back end like that as well.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

And it definitely helps with the buy-in. And that's the the model we used in my my current division. The administrators took on a lot of that the first year so that the teachers could slowly phase into learning, you know, how to skill build with the students. Um, and so it it it's a mindset. Professional development is required and it's a process.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

And and that's that's again when we talk about the implementation cycle, but I know you said this and I appreciate this, that we like to leave our listeners with maybe just some things as a teacher, administrator I could do tomorrow. In other words, are there any baby steps I could take that are pretty doable and practical to work towards this putting the ball in the learner's court in regards to their checking their behavior and thinking things through? What kinds of things do you have for our listeners?

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Absolutely. I think first and foremost, start with your students, like really as a teacher or as a principal, pull a focus group together of your students and really have conversations to learn from them what they need, andor what are their triggers? And what do they think the solutions are? Um, I think sometimes our people are amazed at how brilliant and amazing our students are when we give them an opportunity to rise to the challenge, to shine. Um, so that's first and foremost. Second, also, our parents want to be a part of the solution, right? We need to hear from them too. And again, it's being able to sit and hear that feedback without taking offense to it. Ask them for their feedback. But the second part to that always is, because I always say, don't come with a problem if you don't have the solution. Ask them what solutions they have. They also want to volunteer. How can they support you in implementing this as well? Um, that's the second thing, and then the third thing: building leaders, district leaders. Hear from your staff. What do they need? You know, with the best intentions, a lot of times we think we know what our staff needs or we think we heard them. But be intentional about sitting down and having a conversation about closing the discipline gap. So that's first talk to your stakeholders. Second, look at the data together, not in isolation, and have those real conversations. Yes, we always look at what's good in the data, but let's look at what's not good in the data and let's talk about what's not working and come up with the solution. I think in that data, one of the things I love to do with administrators is walk with me through your building, look through the window, tell me what you see as a principal. Now tell me what you see as an outsider, whether it's a parent or me looking in. You may hear them say, Oh, my teacher is engaging the student. Well, how's she engaging the students? How many students have their heads down? How many students have their cell phone out? So the data is also that observation, really walking through and looking in the building. And then the third thing is, you know, we've all been guilty of it as educators, including myself. How many rules or expectations or foundations do you have in your building? There's how many rules to driving on the road? There's a lot. Do you know all of them, Jackie? Can you remember them? No. Guess what? I can't either, and I've gotten tickets for it. Our kids can't either. Narrow it down, prioritize, have three rules across the board, three to five. That's what the research says.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

And make them universal. If it's good for the classroom, it's good for the hallway. If it's good for the hallway, it's good for the cafeteria. If it's good for the cafeteria, it's good to when they go on a field trip. And remember, we're preparing students for life, not the building. So whatever rules you're setting, they should be for outside the walls, too. And that's where I would start with those three areas.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

So, Dr. Burkurl, I kind of hear um some common threads with PBIS and positive behavioral interventions and support. So there are some similarities, right, with those universal rules and limiting those rules and getting your stakeholders involved, monitoring data, implementing with fidelity, all rings true. What what would be a couple things that is that are different? Differentiate this approach?

SPEAKER_03 35:44

Let me be clear.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

All right.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

I am a believer again of a multi-approach. I don't endorse any one program. What I will say, because buildings have different students, you need to learn what's out there. Learn trauma informed practices, learn what PBIS is, learn what responsibility-centered discipline is. They all have common threads, but at the end of the day, what they all most importantly have in common is that there's a time, a place, and a student for them. And if you learn interventions, then you will learn where to apply them, whether it's at the tier one, tier two, or tier three level. And in the end, it doesn't matter about a tier, it matters about what that student needs in that moment. So learn as many discipline interventions you can. Teach social emotional learning in your schools. All of these things build our students up and equip them with skills to be the best versions of themselves as we prepare them to be productive citizens in society. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Yeah, like restorative practices, restorative justice, just another one. So what I hear you as we kind of wrap up, and I love the real what you left us with is just some real practical tools. But I'm hearing you say fill that tool belt, right? That's one of our old analogies. Fill the tool bucket with as many interventions you can, just like good strategies of instruction. And really think carefully about the needs of your students and and and how each of those can then meet students where they are and what they need. Um great, great stuff. Well, we we are so excited that you joined us. So excited to see you again from Germany. Yeah, too long. And please come back. I mean, I'm just really excited. We're gonna for our listeners, we'll have your information and notes in our section.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

I was gonna say that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Go ahead, Ed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

No, I'm just gonna say we'll we'll have your information in in our notes, and people will be able to get in touch with you and and get more get some more information on on this uh really important issue that really I'm sure uh tugs at everybody, really. I think everybody has room to improve there, and certainly instruction can improve as a result of behavior improving.

SPEAKER_03 38:19

Absolutely. Thank you all for having me. I wish every educator the best of luck in closing the discipline gap. And if I can help in any way, don't hesitate to reach out.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Dr. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Cheers. Appreciate you. Take care of the