JackEd Up
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JackEd Up
From Compliance to Compassion: Building the Student Ecosystem
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Episode with Dr. Kimberly Honnick - A transformational education leader with 30+ years of experience shares her groundbreaking approach to turning around failing urban schools. Dr. Honnick discusses:
- Moving beyond the outdated 1890s industrial education model
- Building student and staff belonging as the foundation for school success
- Practical strategies, including eliminating departmental silos, creating grade-level teams, and implementing advisory periods
- How transformation doesn't require additional funding—just a mindset shift
- Real stories of empowering students and creating environments where everyone wants to be present
Biography:Dr. Kimberly Honnick is a Senior Education Consultant, Leadership Coach, and Speaker, and the Founder of Bo Knowz Learning, LLC. With more than 30 years of experience across K–12 public school systems, Head Start programs, and higher education, she partners with education organizations to strengthen leadership, culture, and professional learning. Her work focuses on Social-Emotional Learning (SEL), leadership development, and people-centered systems change. Dr. Honnick is the author of The Heartbeat Educator and a nationally recognized leader in education.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14tfB9Of89sW87m9sgY0qkks3T5U9IxNY38M96TSn0Vw/edit?usp=sharing
Interested in more? Reach out to Dr. Kim Honnick:
LinkedIn: Dr. Kimberly Honnick
Kimberly Honnick and Bo Knowz Learning www.boknowzlearning.com Community: https://www.skool.com/bo-knowz-learning-7950/about
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#global #professionaldevelopment
I am beyond jacked up for today's episode. I have known Dr. Kim Honick for over 15 years, and it started as a transformational consultant where my colleague and mentor, Steve Olson, and I were sent to a SIG school, school in need of improvement grant, for a school in Newark, New Jersey, Newark Vocational School. And I remember saying to Steve after spending just one afternoon at the school, this school is something straight out of Dangerous Mind. But I but I can always say that also I said to Steve, but if anyone can turn around a school after just spending that afternoon with Dr. Hahn, it is her. I was right, and I am so fortunate to have spent years working alongside her, watching the magic unfold. No leadership education program could come close to the teaching that I received when I learned from watching and witnessing her lead others. Those years working with her really cemented the vision of what an exemplar leader looks and sounds like, as well as they do and not do. So since then I view leadership differently, and now I can keenly identify high quality as well as less than qualified administrators because I spent so much time watching Dr. Honick. So I am just thrilled for her to be here. Ed, please just give us some of her background and her bio.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. Dr. Kimberly Honick is a senior education consultant, leadership coach, and speaker, and founder of Bow Nose Learning LLC. With more than 30 years of experience across K-12 public school systems, Head Start programs, and higher education, she partners with educational organizations to strengthen leadership, culture, and professional learning. Her work focuses on social emotional learning, leadership development, and people-centered systems change. Dr. Honick is the author of Heartbeat Educator and a nationally recognized leader in education. Most recently, her article, Building Student Belonging as a Basic, was published in the American Association of School Administrators as recently as this past March. And today we're going to dive into the important ideas raised within that article. So welcome. We're so glad to have you, Dr. Honick.
SPEAKER_03Oh my goodness, that is the warmest welcome ever. Thank you so very much. I am so thrilled to be here with you and uh my dear friend and colleague Jackie. Uh, you know, what a pleasure it was. I can't believe it's been over 15 years uh since we met at my school. But uh yeah, thank you for that amazing um introduction and warm welcome. I'm thrilled to be here. Yeah, I mean to our conversation. I jacked up.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm jacked up. It is. It's just a it's a great time. We're fortunate to work with so many wonderful people and it and you're it's it's due so overdue. So I don't know if the listeners out there know if I shared this, but I was actually a history major um in secondary education in my undergrad. And I just thought it was kind of fitting to tap into some of that knowledge because today I really want to make a connection to the past. Today, an invisible blueprint is running our schools. And what I mean by that, most of us walk into a classroom and we hear the bells, right? We see the rows of desks and that kind of age-graded levels, just as the way it is, kind of situation where students are grouped. Um, but none of that are natural laws, really. That are all of that, what I'm describing are leftovers of all you history people out there of 19th century factory design, industrialization, really. Back in the 1800s, there were reformers like Horace Mann and Henry Barnard, who were not trying to build ecosystems of belonging, they were building a workforce. And Bernard specifically was open about it and talked about his goals, right? And really, it was really about just building those habits for industry and obedience. The school was the assembly line, you think about it, the teacher was the floor supervisor, and the student was the raw material, if you will, to be processed. If you didn't fit the mold, you were labeled a defective product and tossed aside.
SPEAKER_00Right. And the problem really is uh we are still running that same industrial code in a 2026 world. It's time to reboot the system. Today, Dr. Kim Honick is here to show us why we need to scrap the factory manual and instead grow an ecosystem of belonging. Dr. Honick, we've inherited a system designed for mass-produced compliance, but you're building for a human connection. How did you realize this change was needed? If you could share with us with us those insights uh that you mentioned in your article.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, sure. Thanks so much for the opportunity. And yeah, so um I actually started my uh teaching career back in 1991. So that was probably just after the dinosaurs, right? It's been that long. And uh and uh so going way back, I I'm I know that uh my passion is teaching and learning, and my purpose is to serve children. When I was in third grade, I wrote in my all about me book on those ditto produce. Remember those ditto Renoffs and our teacher would come in, and when the after if the teachers came in with a fresh pack from the staff room, you can just smell them. Oh they probably have a couple brain cells. Um, but I can remember the smell of those dittos. And so we we did this all about me book in third grade, and I wrote on the line what I wanted to be grow up is a teacher, what I want to grow up is a teacher. And so I too, like Jackie, went to um college for education. I majored in history um and you know, was uh K K-12 certified uh in K to elementary, but I did my student teaching um at uh it was at Glenfield Middle School in Montclair, New Jersey, which was the most powerful um experience of my life. And there in House O Gill, so I was assigned to Mr. Dan Gill, who just retired a couple years ago after over a 50-year career education. Um, and um Pat Podesta, who became literally from day one my mentor, my best friend, my second mother, all those things wrapped in one. But what I learned there quickly was the anchor, the foundation of teaching and learning was all about. And that is serving children, creating a space where children want to be, where they are seen, valued, and heard, where they are met where they are. And I learned about differentiation and tailoring lessons without using that language. I learned about positive behavior supports without ever hearing that term before. Uh, I learned about uh units of study um that are anchored in deep thinking and critical thinking skills before I ever learned about lesson plan design. And it was from that experience that um my teaching career blossomed. So having that um incredibly strong foundation um with exemplar educators who I love deeply had the privilege of giving um uh I guess a speech at Dan's retirement a couple years ago. Um, and it just moves my heart to this day. But I have an incredible experience of seeing, right, what teaching and learning is about, and it didn't come a textbook. We didn't even have teachers' editions, we wrote our own lessons from actual resources, and no, we really didn't have the internet. The internet wasn't a thing then, back in 1990, right? Um, but I learned from that experience truly what matters, and that is creating a space where kids feel that they belong, and the relationship between teachers and children and how to orchestrate that among children um of connection. And so it was really from that experience that I carried that to my first classroom of my own. Um, and I was greener than the green pastures of Scotland, but I cared deeply about the children and I knew that creating a classroom where they they feel experienced being seen, value, and heard, and doing what I can to connect with them and help them. And then over the years, my toolbox grew because I just kept, you know, learning and growing and developing, um, and then carried those experiences, whether I was in the classroom, I was in center office, or then assigned as a principal of what Jackie mentioned, a literal failing turnaround high school in North New Jersey, which was a school improvement grant school. Dr.
SPEAKER_00Hoddock, real quick, just remind um or that first experience you had, your first teaching experience, what level is that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I um started at the middle school level. We had sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. Then my first class was sixth grade, and then I went down to third grade, and then I taught third, um, fourth after school programs, and then taught fifth and sixth.
SPEAKER_00So I love how you're you're you're still calling them kids like children, right? Oh, absolutely when those needs are the same, whether you're at the elementary level or the high school level.
SPEAKER_03Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Anyone who works with me will tell you one thing. She refers to the student, they're not students, they're not, yeah, no, they're children. They are our children, and I don't care if they're three, thirteen, or above. They're just taller and maybe smell a little different, but at the heart of it, they are growing, learning, developing. And for me, at least, they are my children.
SPEAKER_00So I mean, that really strikes at the heart of that that seems to strike really at the heart of what you're you're you're saying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I was just gonna say, share with us also, Dr. Hanuk, how you use the term educator. What do you refer to when you mean educator?
SPEAKER_03Oh, an educator is anybody who works in the schoolhouse. So, regardless of what your role you have, you can be a teacher, an assistant teacher, front-end staff, custodial staff, guidance counselors, child study team in my schoolhouse, all is all. And we are all educators because we are all working and learning along and beside children. We're all leading children, and we all contribute to the holistic development of the children, their physical, emotional, um, spiritual, and uh mental, right? So I need my I need my bathrooms to be clean, graffiti-free. I need them to be a place where you know kids can right be clean, you know, and experience that. I need my cafeteria food to be something they enjoy eating. I need that to be a positive experience. So in my schoolhouse, an educator means everybody who works there um has an equal. There are no hierarchies, including myself. There's no hierarchy. Um, you know, I kind of look at myself as when I was a principal, like like a ringmaster of a three-ring circus, right? There's different things happening in different um um areas of the circus, right? Different um tents and things that go on like that. But each one is just as important to the show. And we want to make sure that people walk away with feeling good about what they're seeing and happy and excited. And we all contribute to that, whether you're the acrobat or the clown or you know, doing spinning things on motorcycles and spheres or something, you know. So that's it's super important to me that that language is used in my school.
SPEAKER_01And you know, you talk about the why of why you're in education, and we can relate to that and why it drew to you and your early experiences. Um, and and really you're talking about again that belonging and connection first versus the old school compliance. But we were all raised in the system, it's still around. So, not only the why of why this matters and and and your North Star of students, how did you get the circus, if you will, to buy into also shifting their mindset that this this why of why we're here is not about rules and compliance, which tends to be historically there, right? So, how did you deal with the why with your staff as a leader, Dr. Hanuk?
SPEAKER_03Um, so a few things. One, going back to your connection before about our antiquated educational design model, um, our our current um educational structure has not changed since it was um designed back in the 1890s by the Committee of 10, um, 1892, which was comprised of 10 gentlemen from the university level who came together to redesign and construct the high school program of study because at that time our country was transitioning from an agricultural society to an industrial model. And that took some time. Um, so they decided to create two tracks in the high school program of study, one for college preparation and the other for the workplace. And they outlined three years of English and a language which was Latin at the time and such. Um, and so if you look at uh that Carnegie credit system and the program of study that was outlined in the 1890s, you will see that it is parallel to that of our high school program of study today, the credit base, the four years of English. We've just traded Latin for Spanish and other languages. Um, but it's the same. Um, we created school to reflect that of an industrial model, like you mentioned before, like the assembly light piece with the bells and the rows, and this is what we do when we we do this for 40 minutes, then we close that book and move on to something else for four and and such. Um, and everybody learned the same thing at the same time, at the same rate, at the same pace with the same materials. Everybody, you know, the teacher was, you know, I I'm gonna teach. Yeah, the production manager, yeah. Exactly, yeah. And so, okay, that was fine. Um, and then we transitioned out of the industrial model and we went into a more global knowledge economy, and the industrial model um is not in place anymore in our current workplaces. And if you all even if you look at the past say 20 years, 25 years, we don't do anything the same in 2026 that we did in say 1980. We don't bank the same. I know what it's like not to have a phone, I know what it's like to not have the internet, I know what it's like to have a busy signal, then call waiting. I know what it's like to have a remote that has a cord attached to the device you're using, right? The problem is that as all of these amazing innovations and technology advance, a place called school hasn't. We still have children in rows, we still have them their days dictated by bells, we still have them configured in many schools, use the same group of children travel all day long, right?
SPEAKER_01Delivering content as if it's a receptacle to yeah, to put into your ad.
SPEAKER_00Let's not forget the two and a half months off, right?
SPEAKER_03Right, right, and so so typically, and I'm not saying every school uh by any means, but typically that's very much what it looks like. The problem herein lies is that the children, right? We have um, you know, our current Gen Z and under, right, aren't the same children of the 1980s who you know thrived in that model for the most part, right? And so at least you got through it, right? Um, they're not the same. Our digital pr footprint is completely different. Children have every anybody has immediate access to any information. So having kids memorize information or fill in the blank or very much these same structures from curriculum products that have been around for decades are antiquated. And that's why I mean, I I literally know high schoolers who are running businesses from their phone while they're sitting in English class. Literally from their phones running businesses. Okay. Um, and so, and if you look at a lot of the models of entrepreneurship and leadership, even the trajectory of how that lands has changed. Um, no, you don't have to go to college or you don't have to go to a trade school. You can acquire skills online, you can watch, you know, uh watch YouTube. So many children have said to me, I'm like, where do you learn that from? YouTube, now it's TikTok, right? And and such so the reality is the profile of our children right now in school is exponentially different than it was 10, 15 more years ago. But the schoolhouse hasn't changed, and that's why it's just not working for so many children, and not only that system or structure, but we're talking about other issues such as neurodiversity and even the concept of inclusion, right, is widely debated. And so the problem is we haven't innovated. I'm not even gonna say change, I don't use the C word. The word I use in my schoolhouses is innovate, right? So, like when I was at North Vocation and when you were there with me, one of the first things I did in 2011 was put in internet. There was no internet in the school. I had vocational programs, including Microsoft, Microsoft Office Suite certification, without the internet. How is that even possible? Right, right, and so just putting internet in the building was a game changer. Upgrading, um, integrating new pathways for the kids to explore, things like that. Um and and you can absolutely innovate your programs with existing resources, with existing staff, existing time. It's just a matter of, you know, emulating my friend Steve Jobs think different. And so fast forward to 2016 when um I was assigned to Barringer Arts um in North, New Jersey, which you know that school as well, because you did work with Barringer, which is was in the same category as um North Vocational, right? Um, what I did was I I I have to disrupt this. Um so I am a disruptor. Uh you have to disrupt the pattern in order to make the changes we want to see. And there's people who agree with that and those who don't, and that's fine. I appreciate that. Um, so I had had a conversation with my team. We need to do something different because in our school, um, you know, the school had a history of taking cell phones away, um, which was a disaster. It was harder than than having them keep them, right? And try to manage that between the theft and the law, you'd be surprised. They went to great lengths to hide them. I had to remove the mats from outside of the school because they would hide phones and other things underneath the mats. They got very creative and how to, it was just policing that was more time than than we had. So I decided to disrupt the pattern so we can make changes. And so at the high school, yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, no, no, no, you're fine. But yeah, in in regards to that, Mike, I love that you say that instead of using the term change with your staff, you used innovate, which I just think that and it's again, these are the little nuggets that I just carry with me working with you that are just so insightful, little but major impact. So, just you know, again, talk to me about how did you develop the staff to buy in to you being a disruptor in a toxic environment that you're walking in and you're coming at it from a different angle. How did you get them to walk alongside you, Dr. Hanuk?
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh. So, one thing I did was a book study, and it was not an education book, but I used Todd Rose's The End of Average as a book study. And our PLCs and our staff meetings, which were required for me, so every educator was assigned to a PLC. So the whole school read the book and understood what we were trying to do. And quite honestly, just having a conversation about the so the end of average is a book that talks about different aspects of history and how the average came in and how it's really not working anymore, right? So giving examples from society. So it was really about reading, read a little, reflect a little, discuss a little, repeat. And so what I was trying to do is just see that, see these ideas were starting to like for one of the examples in the book is they created the pilot seat in the military for an average height of say five, eight, male, five, eight. Well, we had six feet tall, and it didn't work, right? And there were big problems with that. So, how can we, you know, make revisions? That's just one small example, but the teachers got it, right? And so my strategy for school improvement is to invest in professional capital. That's my team, that's every educator. So I take my resources, invest in professional learning, coaching, things. Like that. We also did a big deep uh dive into our data, and this is our story, right? And it wasn't somebody else's problem, it's ours. So modeling owning the situation, even when I wasn't there, I could have easily said, Oh, this is somebody. No, no, no, no, no. We're all in. This is ours together. We're gonna figure it out together. And we're this is our the reality of our picture, and our children need better, and that comes from us. So we're gonna figure that out. So the why wasn't as hard because it's easy for the teachers to see, well, this isn't working. So instead of blaming, no, we're gonna come together and figure this out as one, as a unified team. There's no opt-out, everybody's in. And so using the book study was very helpful, taking a deep dive into multiple measures of data to paint the picture. And then I simply asked, is that what you want for the children that we teach?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03No one's a guest.
SPEAKER_00David that you mentioned, like schools are so inundated with that, and nobody knows what to do with it. Nobody has the time to do to really examine it and kind of decipher what it all means. But if you do take the time, you know, you can pause and and kind of rethink exactly what you said and pay attention to that. Uh, and I don't know if you had somebody that was assigned to do that or if it was a team, but monitoring the data is so important in terms of system change and you know, not repeating the same thing over and over again.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so the way I operate is um I'm I I know myself, I know my strengths, I know my gaps, I know my areas of growth and development. So I make sure, like I'm a high eye on the disc profile. So I make sure I surround myself with people who do things better than I do that I don't like, I don't know about and such. So that's one thing I'm really good at. I'm good at getting the right people on the bus in the right seat. And going into this assignment, I said to you know, my boss at central office, I said, I'll go take over the school, but I need to bring a team. And so I already knew who I wanted to bring with me. And it's not about who I like or who my friends are. I don't have any friends here. I don't need friends. What I need is an effective team surrounded by people who are different than me. So at the school, when I got there, there was a position, I think it was school operations manager. And um, her name is Naomi. And I quickly made, I changed her, like there's what's on paper and then what's lived, right? So you have to be willing to, you know, what we have on paper is one thing, but what's lived is another. So on my leadership team, I made Naomi chief of staff, and her role was to connect all of our dots, and so she had, and she wasn't an administrator, but she was empowered just as much as everybody else was. So Naomi was the data keeper, and we made sure we used a Google Drive folder system where my team, including Guidance, including child study team, dropped their data into folders, and Naomi focused on putting it all together, which is her secret sauce, right? That is her superpower. So that is a really important point that you brought up, Ed. And I think one of the things that you really have to do as a, you know, a school leader or a leader in general is really know this, like know your team. What are they good at? What are they passionate about? What's your jagged talent? And how do we give them the opportunity and empower them to use those skill sets to advance our mission vision? Right? So that's how that happened. Yes, I had a point person and she was on my team, chief of staff, and everybody knew it. So whatever we were doing, and connect the dots, Naomi got it, and she worked her magic.
SPEAKER_00It seems like that's really the foundation of the whole thing, right? Like taking that, looking at it, examining it, and then you play around with things in the system, and then you go back again and you you're monitoring that data, and what impact did it have, if any.
SPEAKER_01But I think if I could just say too, what I witnessed with with Dr. Hanick that's different is too just the the view in which they took the lens that they took. Again, you could look at it from a perspective of what's wrong, but I mean, again, I always I always saw Dr. Hanuk coming from an angle of like what can possibly be right and how are we gonna get there? If that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because I didn't care about the test scores. Look, my test score is for school improvement grant, you're in the bottom 10% of the state. Like there's only one word to go is up, can't go any lower. So my strategy was um so my strategy was I didn't focus on that at all. I focused on what happens in our schoolhouse every day. How I needed staff who wanted to come to work, and I needed children who wanted to come to school. When you have that battery bone place, your attendance data goes up.
SPEAKER_00Now, somebody who's yeah, when I say data, yeah, the attendance is part of that, a huge part of that as behavior.
SPEAKER_03In the sense that it was wash, but I think what Jackie's referring to is that my focus was on people, my focus was on empowering the staff and making them feel heard and valued, and it was hard. There was no welcome wagon for me when I got to North Vocational where Jackie support, none. All right. I was the uh fourth principal in a calendar year, number four in one year. There was no welcome wagon, there was no, so you know.
SPEAKER_01And this this too shall pass was the mentality, right? Like Ed we've said before, right? Like, oh, here we go again with another, you know, this is just this is just hold out tight and we'll be on to the next one and to the next one.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, and it was just a different approach, and so they're like they weren't used to that.
SPEAKER_01But let's speak to that approach because again, why I why I feel why I admire you so much is talk about the resistors, because uh from from where I sit and where I've sat, I find a lot of moves by leadership made in fear of losing staff, right? Like if I hold them accountable, if I if I if I say this is the way it is, am I gonna lose staff? And what are we gonna do, especially in today where we're we're trying to retain teachers and get them in the profession? Talk about the way in which you dealt with some of that resistance, Dr. Hanick, because I really think it's a different angle than what typically people would think about. That resistant teacher that's that's just not on board and might be a deflector.
SPEAKER_03Sure. So in both of my instances going into the principal ship, in both cases, the previous principals were removed as well as their teams. So that's how I got there, right? Is that I was basically told you're gonna go in for two years, clean it up, and then come back to central office. That's essentially what happened. Um, and so uh there was a lot of resistance when I got to North Vocational. They couldn't find the keys to the building they were missing. Okay, so we didn't have keys to the building. Um, so I went to educator numero uno, that would be my head custodian, and I said rekey the building. And they didn't expect me to do that or get it done so quickly because everyone had secret keys and they were hidden. They ended up being hidden under the main office cabinet, which I the same place where the kids were hiding the cell phones, correct. Um, so the teachers uh really missed their principal that was initially removed. They resented the department chair that served as interim principal. The new principal that came in from January to June, who's removed, was given a ton of resistance. And so when I get there, number four, um I remember I went into the school with a friend and colleague and my secretary from central office, and I made a decision. And the decision I made was that I own this and I'm gonna own all of it, and it's my responsibility to choose how I lead us to the next level because we're already at the bottom and we're going up. And so um I built in professional learning communities, which you, you know, attended staff, um, staff rolled their eyes, they ate, they did other things, they taught, you know, they that kind of stuff. Um there was I took, I I went into math classrooms because the math scores were at 29% proficiency at the point. And I what I noticed, what I observed, I sat with the kids in the desks and I observed that they were literally going through the test prep books. So I told, you know, super superhero number one, take these books out of the classroom, throw them in the garbage. And I told the math teacher, you're gonna teach the children the math, not just these practice problems every day, which they weren't understanding the math or the concepts anyway. They I thought the teacher was gonna have a heart attack. I she was petrified. No, you're gonna teach the children, you're gonna build relationships with you're not gonna manage them because a lot of the instruction was like that, right? Managing, hoping nothing would go down. Um, when I got there, they had a behavioral disability program that was housed on the third floor of the school. So the first two levels of the school were my school, and then the third floor was a behavioral disability group. And I said, Well, how can you keep nine boys on a floor by themselves? Like it just wasn't working, right? I said, We're going to bring the behavioral disability class down to our school and we're going to use an inclusion model. Well, the teachers were petrified. I had the students assigned to vocational pathways. The chef said to me, Well, Dr. Hanuk, you know, we we can't give them knives. I said, You're going to give them knives and you're going to teach them how to use them. But through this, it wasn't really a directive. It was I immerse myself. I wore the school uniform every day. I was out in the halls. I had to, I had to get buy-in and build relationship quick from the kids first, because it wasn't coming from the adults. I had two adults on the entire staff who were supportive. So I started with the children. So once the staff saw that I was building relations, like having them feel, no, you belong here. No, the special ed kids aren't gonna remain in the corner or on no, no, no, you belong here, and their behavior just changed. When kids feel like they belong and you connect with them, they'll do anything for you. And so they started to, you know, I empower the kids. I had a hallway problem. So I said, Who's in charge here? Which which kid is which one of my children is in charge here? Dayvon. All right, Dave Von, you're gonna be the harm on hall monitor. I swapped on one of those uh safety patrol things. My hallways were never so clear because when he told the killer kids to go to class, they win. So the teachers are saying, Look, we have to engage the children. This is their school, right? And so, and in just relentlessly focusing on their growth and development. I brought in different partners, including you and Steve, right? They love Steve, they love you. They're like, oh, wait, we're we're actually like being given support and trying strategies, like we have to do Leslie, she's making us do these units of study, but we can actually pick from pieces that we can try out, whether the the hook, the triggers, right? Thinking about the process skills. What is it that we want kids to know and be able to do to experience? And then we gave kids the teachers the autonomy. Hey, just pick something and try it. And so what ended up happening is they experienced success with it. And so it started to become okay, you know, okay. And uh so it was uh it was about making a decision to own it. There was no finger pointing and blame, it was about relentlessly believing in the teachers and pouring into them even when they didn't want it. And I did force collaboration, I did require them to schedule into PLCs, but I taught them the systems and the structures and then gave it to them to facilitate. And the magic that happened, the conversations that happened, uh, the the pathway teachers, the vote teachers, and the specialist teachers, like uh sorry, art and music, like blew it out of the water. The the projects the children were producing were amazing.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, and I think too the powerful those those morning meetings that you would have too. That that was something that I mean again on day one, it was a hot mess, and I thought, what school am I at? And and over the years to watch you and to see those morning meetings and to see the kids again back to what we're talking about, that feeling of belonging, and you could just feel it and see it. I mean, I lived it with you, I I witnessed it, I saw it. And so when you did have a couple of teachers that still consist, even though you're pouring in resources, you're in the trenches, Kim, you're surrounding yourself with experts. If you have a couple of teachers, how do you handle that? I think I remember you handling it kind of similar to how we handle that that one or two naughty kids in the class kind of thing, right? Talk to that about how you dealt.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, sorry. So one is it doesn't bother me, and I'm not gonna change course or change what we're doing because somebody doesn't like it or is dis or doesn't want to do it. Um, the strategy I use is to build a relationship and seek to understand. Because in my experience, um, one, people don't get up in the morning and make a decision and say, I'm going to work and suck today. I just want to do the worst possible job ever. Nobody does that. Number two is that in my experience, every disgruntled staff member I've had comes from a place of not feeling seen valued or heard. And so when people don't feel valued, when people don't feel seen, they don't feel heard, they can become disengaged, they can be dumb, become disgruntled, whether they're vocal about it or not. So I'm pretty good at reading that room. And the first thing I do is build a relationship with them and spend a lot of time with them and get to know them. Once there, I find out what's important to them. There is something important to every human being on this planet. Everyone has something that's important to them or they're passionate about. Everybody. I find that, find out what that is and see if they're willing to share it with the learning community. No one has ever told me no. And so, one, uh what I've seen in my career is if somebody's disgruntled or doesn't do something, they stop. No, we're not stopping anything. I'm gonna seek to understand your why behind this, and I'm gonna keep peeling that back. I like using it's something called the seven layers of why. So you literally have a conversation with someone and you would like why each time, and it always goes back to the same thing that people want to feel valued, empowered, seen, heard, that it matters. And once you pick that out and go with it, they become your biggest champions, like the school's biggest champions. It's just true.
SPEAKER_00And you had to overcome being number four that year, right?
SPEAKER_03And so yeah, four in a calendar year.
SPEAKER_00If anything tells a teacher they're not valued, is is you know, being on the fourth principal that year.
SPEAKER_01100%.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that was another part of it. And they're like, just bring our principal and just leave us alone. Yeah, and they already had this, you know, these rules. So being a school improvement grant school, you have a three-year plan, and you have each year you have benchmarks that you have to meet, otherwise, the money is pulled. And that's a high stake. So I was already a year behind. I had three people before me, and I inherited a deficit, as it is, with the plan. So when I went into, and my philosophy is this I said, I don't have three to five, and neither do the children. These children have one ninth grade, one twelfth grade. So when the state came in, I told them my plan, my whole, you know, like you're doing too much. Well, this is a failing turnaround high school, and these children have one year. Yeah, I gotta take this from different levels. I have to work on academics, culture, and climate. Never mind, you know, and I run those things like simultaneously is no academic isn't it. No, no, no, no. No, it's all interwoven. It's all interwoven.
SPEAKER_01Beautifully. Could you yeah, it was beautiful, Kim. Could you because one of the things is the restorative justice? Yeah, and again, I just think what was so when you talk about simultaneously, we're there working on instruction, you're over here working on restorative justice, and and talk a little bit about that angle, that it wasn't just for, you know, okay, I'm getting sent to the dean's office and it looks different than typically. Talk to me about how you utilize that for climate culture, because that was huge.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So the reality is that especially having a um a high number of special needs students at your school, and um, look, there was a lot of stuff that went down in my schools, both of them. Um, the reality is is that, and I the reality is that suspending children, putting them out on the streets and not having them to school is dangerous. Okay. I lost a child, a junior at Barringer, to gun violence on the streets because he wasn't in school and he was hanging out with one of his friends who was the intended target, and it was my boy that took the bullet and passed away. And um, that wasn't the only, I mean, that's an a tragic outcome. But the real I firmly believe that my children are safer and better in school with me and our team than out in the streets. They're going to be here. So suspension isn't something we're going to do. It doesn't work, and it's just get them out of the way. No, no, no. I'm pulling them close. So we're not doing that. Not to say there weren't any, because there were. However, we need something different. So, what what we worked on was a holistic approach of building community. So, how do you get people involved to do that, right? How do you get everybody on the same page? So, I had hired a coach both for me and my team back at Newark Vocational and at Barringer. And one of the activities who took my team through, which I have replicated, is creating a shared document that is constructed by every single educator in that building. And what we did was we outlined our mission, why do we exist, and our vision, what do we aspire to be doing have. I don't care what the district, this is our school and our needs reflective of our population. Then we then we constructed our core values and operating values. This is what we believe and we're holding on to, and this is the way we do business here. So that was literally constructed by the staff with chart papers and synthesizing and the whole nine yards. Then we articulated a definition for student achievement. So achievement in our school looks this way for our kids. And they the teacher, I didn't write this document. My staff, everyone, every educator really took it through the lens of the emotional, the social, the academic. It was really uh actually, it was amazing, but they articulated it that way. Okay, great. So we have our mission vision core operating values, we have a definition of student achievement. This is what achievement looks like here in our school. Great. Now, what are the behaviors we need to have to make this happen? Right? So we started with the children. This is what we need from the children, this is what we need from the staff, and this is what we need from the leadership. And guess whose list was the longest?
SPEAKER_01Leadership.
SPEAKER_03Mine.
SPEAKER_01Yep, 100%.
SPEAKER_03I have right so we took this all, and that was our August back to school. This is all we did for professional learning. We created that document, and I'm happy to share it with you. And this was our constitution.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's your anchor, as you would always say, right? Right, Jackie. This anchors us. I remember you saying that. This anchors us.
SPEAKER_03Anchors us, and we made a we had consensus to say our actions are we're gonna be very intentional and align our actions to this. And we are not looking for there is no such thing as perfection, but we are looking for progress. And that that document was a living, breathing in everybody's everyone's workspace. And I went back to it once a month at staff meetings, and then we did a revisit in mid like January. Where are we with this? Do we have to make any tweaks? But that document, it was easy, and you know what? The teachers held the like the teams held themselves accountable. Everybody did. Yeah, and so it really did change professional practice. Let me say it this way it influenced professional practice because we had consensus on what success looks like for our children.
SPEAKER_01Right. The target was the same. The end in mind, as Steve would always say, right? The end in mind was very clear. And the alignment piece is what we're doing getting us what we want. We've defined what we want is what we doing getting what that decision making is another thing that again I can't emphasize enough about that's one thing that's again is strong. My vision is here, and everything we choose to do, as you say, is moving forward and aligned to that ultimate goal that we had ownership in doing, right? So Dr.
SPEAKER_03Honic, you're not my job. Yeah. I'm sorry, I was gonna say that my job was to just set the structures to make that happen. What do you need from me to make that happen? That was my job.
SPEAKER_00So you're coming in your first year, you're not doing this, you know, your first year. How what is the time frame? Like how how did you expect that? We're doing this our first year. You are doing it your first year.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. Yeah, we we're starting on day one because um we don't have time not to.
SPEAKER_00And because you mentioned that earlier, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, we started day one. That's how we open up the school year. Um, and uh so year one was that, and looking, and then year two was our inclusive model. So, what does that look like for because I had the highest number of special ed children in both my high school that they ended up being that way because we, you know, we're we do that. And um for the 2017-2018 school year, connecting to how we need to innovate schooling designs, uh, we implemented personalized learning. So uh that first year, along with um this anchor document work, I took uh I looked for different opportunities, found grants, found a partnership. So I took a couple team members with me to California to check out this personalized learning model, um, decided we were going to do it, took, uh, decided we were gonna start with grade nine. And so took a team of teachers, ninth grade teachers. Uh, what I did at the high school level, which is not normal, is I shut down the departments. So there were no more departments, no more English department, math departments, so none of that. What I created was grade level teams. So there was a ninth grade team, a tenth grade team, social four core subjects. There were teachers who did, and there was uh English, math, science, um, who am I missing? History, and then there was an inclusion teacher on every team, a special special ed teacher on every team. And then there were teachers that um cross teams, mostly like world language, things like that, but there was a core, right? And then I created the uh like other teams. So they worked as a team now, right? And then um, so I took the ninth grade team to be trained in Kentucky in this model. And so I took all the desks out of the ninth grade classrooms. There were no more desks, took them out, put in tables, flexible seating, had one-to-one initiative, um, put in a took a room that we I don't remember what it was used for, um, took all the front, like took it out, whatever was in there and created like put like um floor seating, bean bags, like that kind of flexible learning design. And so our ninth grade was run as a well, all grades were level, uh grade levels were run as teams. So there's no more grade level meetings, they were team meetings.
SPEAKER_00So your PLCs then were cross-content, right?
SPEAKER_03Correct, they were all cross-content, exactly. Yeah, um, and so that helped, you know, and that executed that. And then um that year we also implemented design thinking to facilitate project-based learning. See, that's the disruptor stuff, right? Yep, so she disrupted it all. I spent$25,000 for two days of professional development from a team from Stanford to teach the teachers about design thinking and was full immersion. I have these amazing pictures of teachers creating their designs. They went through the design thinking process. So, what we did was a school-wide design challenge by each grade level: nine, 10, 11, and 12 had a design challenge. And where did this happen? Advisory. So, what Jackie was talking about before the morning meeting. So, when I got to North Vocational, they put this convocation every day on the on the schedule. Yeah, so I said to him, I what's your plan for this? Wait, you don't have a plan for the you have this block of time every single day with the children, and you have no plan. So that's when I decided, all right, we're gonna build a community here. And every day we did the Corvette. That kind, that's what Jackie was referring to. Yeah, transferring that to Barringer, I built in advisories. So that I talk about too in the article. So I built in advisories, grade level wrapped around lunch, so it was really easy to wrap it around lunch on the schedule, but every single educator, that's everybody, was an advisor, so they were small, and we would work on social emotional learn, all that stuff integrated into advisory, and then you do these the do the design challenge, and that was really designed to be really um building a sense of community, yeah, right, and the connection, right, within their advisory. So that was the the why behind those. And it was probably the best thing I've ever done. There's a couple things that I'm really like proud of that I did one at Norwich Vocational, one at Barringer, and Barringer was definitely um the design thinking challenge. I think it was amazing. Um, I loved every second of it. I didn't even care. I didn't care what the outcome was. It just worked and it was just something different. Um, but you know, yeah, these things had to happen quick because um I think sometimes the longer you wait, um, I think sometimes staff just don't think it's gonna happen anyway. And so yeah, I had to shake it up. They were on these like super long block periods where like halfway through nothing was happening. So I said, we're gonna disrupt the schedule. And I did something completely different. I did a rotating drop, which was very I didn't care. It made everybody pay attention, right? We had to pay attention and be intentional. I turned the bells off. Like, Dr. Hanuk, how are we gonna tell time? You know how to tell time, you have watches you, but we're gonna turn those bells off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, because I wanted to break that, you know, antiquated industrial model and get kids used to collaborating and talking and not being driven by bells and working and learning with different kids, um, in an inclusion model.
SPEAKER_01And you know, amazing. It's just like I said, it's just amazing. I can't wait for your book to learn more. But I I think what I'd like what I'd like to end with is just there's so much more, and we we gotta have you on again, Dr. Hanuk, because it you just a wealth of information and knowledge, but like just to kind of wrap it up and bring it back, impact of your choices and your leadership with all this in mind that you shared with us today. What are some of those investment those that um impact that you know that you have both from students, teachers? How would you just kind of end up this session and talk about the impact of your choices and the focus of belonging and what what that's done for the community?
SPEAKER_03So I would say really know your why and really evaluate your why. Why are you doing this? Why do you want to be a principal? Why do you want to be a teacher? Why and for me, it's uh like I said before, I know my purpose and passion, and my why is to serve children and give them the best optimal learning experience that they can have. And that doesn't mean get perfect, it means that I want you to feel that you belong in this school, that you are seen as you are, who you are, we're gonna meet you where you are and help you with different types of tools and strategy and care and support to grow and develop. We just want you to grow, and whatever your finish line is, is yours, and that's okay. But I want you to feel safe, I want you to feel seen, I want you to feel respected, and I want you to feel connected in some way to the school, whether it's to be to a to a teacher, to a guidance counselor, to a program. I mean, it could be to me, right? I mean, I you know, the principal's office was where uh like 15 seniors hung out every day for lunch. I have pictures, right?
SPEAKER_01They come and do their makeup, you know, and um and I know yeah, and they reach out to you, don't they, Doctor?
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, I just had one of my so I had him at Nork Vaux 15 years ago, and he's like, I love you know, he's 30s, they're in their early 30s, and I think the most powerful thing the child said child, he's a man now. Um, but I told him you'll always be my sweet boy. He was my whole monitor, the one I was talking about before. Uh he was in charge. Yeah, he so I had to, you know, make him my buddy, my pal. But um, you know, he said to me, This is what he said, and I'm paraphrasing, I have the text message, I can pull it up. But he said, the other principles we had, it was their way or the high way. With you, it was our way and we'll figure it out. I don't like my work is done here. Like if 15 years later, my kids can say, we felt that it was our way and we'll figure it out together. Because I don't have all the answers. I do know what to do, and I pride myself in having a vast toolbox because I've worked hard to build that toolbox over the years. But the toolbox aren't valid, they are completely useless if you don't invest in power the people on your teams to implement them, and that's what it comes down to, and that includes the children. Include them because when staff, when children feel they belong somewhere, they want to come. Our core values were show up, just show up as you are, be brave, and try when it's hard. And I am enough every day. I said they were on bulletin boards, but and just try when it's hard, and we saw evidence of that. And I have a lot of stories, and some of it came in like the strangest places, right? In places where you wouldn't even expect it. So I know we're at the end, but this one's worth it, right? So so one time I get, you know, on the walkie talkie, like my my one of my team members comes to like, doc, you gotta see this. He hands me a USB. Now I know what that's on, that's USB, right? There's only one thing on the USB flash drive, it's video footage. That's all it is, okay? And it's never good. Never good. So when you get the USB, I'm like, oh, not today, really. Today, okay. Plug into the computer, and this is what I see. I have three children in the hallway where my science wing is with a bottle. And they take the bottle and they're pouring a liquid down the hall. And they start from the beginning of the hall to the end of the hall. Now, this is at the end, I have classrooms in the back, one stairway. Then I watch them take out a map where they got it, I don't know how they got it in, and they light the liquid on the floor on fire. And I see fire going across the row of liquid, and about halfway through, the fire stops. Now there's nobody reason. Why did the piranha continue down the hall? There's only one answer. God said, not today, Hanukkah, not today. Then, here's the miracle, right? I see one of my kids, and I'm like this, looking in the computer screen, looking real close. I see him go to the fire signature, open the open the thing, get the fire, and put the fire out. Now, who is this child? This is one of my seniors who is a um classic hall walker. I don't even know how he's getting through. I don't know, but he's always in the hall, respectful, doesn't bother, always walking the halls. Thank God I was walking the halls today and where he was. This is what I mean by building community because we didn't rail him. He wasn't in trouble, he wasn't suspended, or he wasn't. We just tried to work with why would you want to be in some of these classes? Right? We actually gave him a good citizen award. You know how they do senior awards?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_03We had a special award made for the fire, the firefighter award. The good citizen award. Because it was literally by the it was just by the grace of God that the fire stopped word that you gotta see this. I was like, you've gotta be kidding me. But I was like, of all the kids, right? Yeah, it's you think they're not listening, you think they're not paying attention, you think they don't care, but it's not true. When they at least feel respect, that doesn't mean you agree with everything that's going on, but when you're treating children with respect, right? These are the things that happen. Yeah and God's like not today, Hanukkah, just not today, you know. I'm telling you the truth, you know. So it was just reflective of when you do treat people, children, and with res, they want to be there, and the way they show up is different.
SPEAKER_01They all don't show up the same, but when it comes down to it, you know, they those basic fundamental needs are there, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yes, they do what's in the best um for the community, yeah, at the very least, right? Right? So it's it works amazing.
SPEAKER_00So, Dr. Hana, great conversation. We want to put some links in our notes so that people can learn more about your work and including the the article that was just recently published. And a book coming out. Yeah, I was just gonna say we'd like to link that when it's out too. We can go back and do that and have you on again because so much energy in this conversation that we want to continue that. And uh I'm kind of tired just listening to you.
SPEAKER_01No, that's what I'm saying. I uh you know, it's like, are you ready for this, Ed? Because I'm telling you. This is what I was able to live alongside for years to see this in in action, and it was a great, great opportunity. So thank you again, Dr. Hanuk.
SPEAKER_03No, that's why we do this work, and that's why I'm so passionate about innovating our school designs, like you were talking about in the beginning, to just be reflective, right? Being willing to disrupt and just do different, right? Just think different. Yeah, I can promise you one thing, and and your listeners, one thing, it doesn't cost extra. You don't need extra staff, you don't need, I think that would be my bottom line is that if you want to really create an ecosystem, right, reflective of belonging, it starts with our mindset. How are we gonna approach this work? Yeah, create that sense of belonging, just meeting people where they are, and then just building the relationships for that connection. That is the secret sauce to accomplishing what we want to accomplish in schools and be willing to just run and do things differently, you know, just think different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, disrupt it. Thank you, Dr. Hanuk. We appreciate you. Have a great one, yep, and we'll see you again for sure. For so much, stage act up adios.
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