Student Engagement, Alignment, and Helping Students See Their Learning Journey

Jackie and Ed reconnect with a colleague who’s shaped their work from stateside consulting to an unforgettable DoDEA experience in Germany. Together, they dive into one of the hottest topics in education right now—Student Engagement, especially as teachers everywhere are trying to keep students’ heads up, connected, and invested in learning.

With 35+ years of experience, Dr. Cortez brings powerful stories and a clear mission: making learning visible so students understand their journey, their growth, and why it all matters. He also shares practical, tomorrow‑ready strategies for teachers and leaders—real moves, not dog‑and‑pony‑show tricks—that strengthen alignment, deepen motivation, and build authentic student buy‑in.

A grounded, energizing conversation for educators who want engagement that lasts, not entertainment that fades.

Dr. Ruben Cortez Contact Information and Consulting Requests

rubenfcortez@gmail.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruben-cortez-47944a13b/

An article on using the KMO for organizational change

https://designingschools.org/innovation-gap-analysis-using-the-kmo-method-to-move-from-current-to-desired-outcomes-in-schools/--

Learning Targets: Helping Students Aim for Understanding in Today's Lesson

https://files.ascd.org/pdfs/onlinelearning/webinars/webinar-handout2-7-17-2012.pdf

#jackeduppodcast #newpodcast #education #knowledgeispower

 #global #professionaldevelopment

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Right, mindful movements eliminate with something super breaking rules we innovate.

SPEAKER_05 0:14

Jacked Up, an educational podcast hosted by Jackie and Ed. Jacked Up dives headfirst into the wild world of learning with unfiltered energy, sharp insights, and a profound love of all things education. From classroom innovations and policy debates to quirky pedagogy and unexpected lesson from the trenches, this podcast breaks down complex topics with humor, heart, and a whole lot of passion. If you are an educator, lifelong learner, or just someone who believes that curiosity is a superpower, get ready to get jacked up about education. Brought to you by Alignment Consulting LLC. Intentional strategies, impactful solutions.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Alrighty, welcome back, listeners, to the Jacked a Podcast. I'm excited to be here with all of you. But before we even jump into our guest and introducing him, I want to just really say thank you to all our listeners. Truly, truly thank you. We just started this podcast January what, Ed, 13th?

SPEAKER_03 1:14

January 6th, I think. Was it 6th this year?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, we just started. And already we're doing fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

It's amazing. So we've, you know, we look at the statistics and we've been in, it's hard to believe, we've been in over 200 cities in 32 countries, which is just wild. It blows my mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, so it's global. So I just wanted to take the quick second to say thank you to all you listeners out there. If this is your first time, welcome. Thank you so much. Keep on listening, and um we're gonna get started. So tonight is really exciting for both of us. Today's guest is special to both of us in that we're welcoming a colleague who has been a part of our professional journey in a lot of different powerful ways. As independent consultants for Catapult Learning, the three of us have had the privilege of working alongside our guests, sharing stateside work, we've done conferences together, collaborative thinking, and the kind of conversations that really push practice forward. But what made this partnership truly memorable was when all three of us had the opportunity to work together overseas. Being able to support educators and leaders in Germany working on bases, schools on the soldiers' bases with Dodea was really a treat in providing professional development. It was a treat, both, I would say, professionally as well as personally. Learning, the relationships, and the perspective that all three of us gained from the experience, I really would say if you guys agree that it shapes how we think about teaching, leadership, and the impact of PD today. So today we have a guest who is wise in many different areas, but I'm excited today to specifically dive into some of the independent work that he's focused on with student engagement. And what I love about this topic is it's hot, but not only that, we're going to talk about alignment and how that fits in, how helping students clearly see their learning journey is powerful, why that matters for students, and even more importantly, how we can design for them to recognize their own growth along the way. This is about making learning visible, and we want that for students so that they can feel connected and motivated, which is connected to engagement, and invested in when they're headed in their learning journey. So, Ed, we know Dr. Ruben Cortez, but please tell our listeners about him.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Yeah, before we turn it over, it's important that you know who he is and his experience and what he brings tonight. So Dr. Cortez is an educator with over 35 years of experience. You must have started very young. He has experience as a secondary teacher, an administrator, and a national consultant. Before joining Pacific Oaks as a professor in the MA Multiple Subjects Credential Program, Dr. Cortez has presented nationally, internationally on diversity, equity, and inclusion and anti-bias, as well as on student motivation, purposeful instruction, classroom management, and effective instructional practices. Dr. Cortez has trained secondary and elementary school administrators in managing organizational change, and he has coached teachers and instructional leaders as they implement instructional strategies to raise student achievement among struggling students. So, Dr. Cortez, it's great to see you again. Welcome to our podcast, and we're so excited to share this discussion with you.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Yeah, thank you. I'm so happy to be here, honestly. And I think if if people knew me, they'd they'd know that with my gray hair and white beard, I I'd put in the time. I put in the time and education. I think I got most of that from my time and education.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Yeah, very distinguished look.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

100%.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

We're gonna have to post that on our Facebook page. You're not getting away with that just because we're audio. Yeah, we're excited. Welcome so much. Um and and we're finally excited because we're aligned right now tonight across three different time zones, right? So we're making this happen. I'm thrilled. Like I said, student engagement is really a hot topic, I think always, but even more so today with the things that we're facing. And you're an expert, like I said, earlier in many areas, but there's a personal story um that you have with some classroom experiences, I think, that would be nice to start with. Just why you dove into this work and why it matters.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, you know, I think one of the things the the three of us know, you know, we've had you know the privilege of going into really a lot of different classrooms, right? We're we're seeing a lot of different students, a lot of different interactions with that. And you know, one of the things is to me, it's it's always trying to look at things from student experience, right? What's happening for the student? Not you know, people tend to focus on what the teacher's doing. It's like what's happening for the student? Um, and so one of the things we've always done was like we go into a classroom and we try to find out do the students understand what it is. And I I went into this one classroom and it was a science classroom, and this the the students were in working in groups, right? And they were at a desk and they had this activity. And I I walked up to one group and I said, Hey, can you guys tell me you know what you're doing, what your objective is for today? And so they said, Oh yeah, we have this plastic container, and they open up the container for me, and they said it's it's the bottom is covered with pennies, which I could see. And they said, We started out with the the pennies were all heads up, and then we close the lid, and then we we shake it three times, and then we open it up, and then we count how many now are tails. And we do that until either they're all turnover tails or we do that for ten times. And then we have this little piece of paper here, and we mark down every round what happened. And I said, Great. I said, So why are you guys doing this? What were you supposed to learn? And they go, I don't know. I don't know. Um I said, okay. Um I said, what do you think the the learning is supposed to be here? I'm not sure. And so, you know, like it's like, well, maybe you're thinking like maybe that's just an anomaly, right? Maybe it's just that one group, just didn't hear what they were supposed to take away from this. Um and so I went to another group, asked them the same questions. Same thing. They explained this activity perfectly to me about what they were doing. I said, So, so what do you guys think you're what are you guys learning from that? I don't know. I said, you know, I said, what do you think the teacher wants you to learn from this? He said, I don't know. I'm sure he'll tell us at the end. Right? Um, well, you know, in in high school is what happens is teachers tend to go to the bell. And so it was like the bell rang and the teacher's like, hey guys, don't forget, put your materials, all that all this stuff about the materials. Kids walked out. Now, this this at this particular high school, this was a block skin. So they weren't gonna that teacher was not gonna see those kids for you know the day after. It wasn't even tomorrow. And I I asked the teacher, I said, Hey, I said, this is a great activity. What what were you guys what were you what was the purpose of it? He said, Oh, you know, we've been studying, you know, mineral degradation and want to learn about you know carbon dating and how you know some of them, you know, over time they change, you know. Great. Your kids got none of that.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah, yeah, you're able to articulate that, but didn't hear it from the learners, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Right, exactly right. Great, great activity. Kids, and this is the thing, right? It looked like kids were engaged because if you you walk into that classroom, kids are are doing something, they're on a hands-on activity, right? They're they're shaking this container, they're writing things down, you know, they're the the you know, they're they're talking about what they're doing, so it's not they're off task. If you just walk in and look, they're engaged, but they weren't engaged. Or I would say this, you know, uh the the the lowest level of engagement is compliant. And they were that's where they were. They were in compliance, they were doing what they were being asked. As far as learning is concerned, wasn't happening.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Yeah, and I would for a minute there. I thought you were gonna say that you asked the teacher that question, and the teacher turned around and said, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, go look at the book, right? No, it's it's conveying that to the kids so that it is more meaningful activities. Yeah, uh obviously. Um so I mean I don't think teachers start out wanting to just assign things that don't have meaning. So how how do how does that how does that happen in a classroom that kids are doing things and and like you said, they're they're they're engaged to an extent, but not as much as they could be.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Yeah, well, you know what, here's what happens. It's like I always I used to tell teachers, like, you know, what's what's the number one question that students ask in a classroom, right? And if you ask a group of teachers, they always tell you the same thing. Why do we have to learn this? Why do we need to know how many points is this worth? Is this gonna be on the test, right? These are all value questions. And students want to know why. Students want to know why are you being why are they being asked to do something? Um and well the problem is we don't do that in classrooms. We like maybe we'll tell them we they'll have an agenda. Here's what you're gonna be doing today. Um maybe they'll write on the board somewhere with the objective because maybe their administrator asked them to do. But that doesn't get related to right. We don't tell students, hey guys, here's what you're gonna be doing today, here's why you're gonna be doing and then throughout the lesson, hey, don't forget we're trying to do this. Think about what a difference it would have made for that for that students. The teacher said, Hey guys, remember we've been learning about mineral degradation, we're talking about carbon dating. You know what? Today we're gonna do a little practice about that so we can kind of learn a little bit about you know what that's like. You're gonna do an activity that mimics that.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I was gonna that was my next question. I was gonna say, well, backing up again, like what how would you have changed to that if you were observing the teacher and what feedback would you give them? Yeah, and that's a great example of that.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

And that's what I would have told them. I said, you know, if you would have laid that out for them, then when I asked them what they were doing, they would have said, Oh, we've been studying about mineral degradation and we're practicing this with pennies. Okay, great. There is another, I went to this math class, I went to two math classes. Again, this was a high school. So it was the same math class, it was an algebra. And I walked in and I, same thing. I had a student, I walked to stay and said, Hey, what are you guys, what are you guys doing today? Um what's your what's your objective? And she said, Oh, well, we're working on uh 4.1. Uh yesterday we did 4.0, and then we're gonna after we're dealing with 4.1, we're gonna move to 4.2. Obviously, they're working through the textbook, right? And so it's like, okay, this person is this person is, you know, they have uh an inbox and they're working on getting this stuff on the inbox of their album. So I went to another math class, same level, same level of of class, and I said to the student, I said, What are you guys doing today? What are you working on? Oh, we're working on quadratic equations. They were also in 4.1, right? They were also doing that work.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Well, they were on scope and sequence. Everyone's on the same page.

unknown 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

But the difference is the teacher had articulated to them why they were doing that work. So it's not just uh, you know, I put it in your inbox, now put it in your outbox and turn it in.

unknown 12:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Well, I think I'm sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Yeah, I was just gonna say that like when I'm listening to you, uh again, we've been in so many classrooms that it's almost when you talked about the students, like the the lowest part of engagement is compliance. I feel like that's part of the teacher's hoop jump, right? Is that like at some point the research comes out and we know the research about why it's important for students to know what they're learning. That initiative comes across someone's desk, a PD day happens, right, and we now this becomes part of what we do at this school. But I think we've talked about this before, but we never truly implement a massage to make sure that it's fully understood, looked at, done well, done right, and massaged to like what you're saying, right? So because it's not about just putting it on the wall.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

That that's checking the box. You know, I I have the agenda on the board, what more do you want me to do, right? It's more than that. It's it's about, like you said, do you know that it's there because it's intended for students to be able to articulate it? You're supposed to continuously go back to it, those kinds of things. Um so yeah, it's really interesting. So it's to me that's the part where it it it gets lost. It's like that cliff of we know what's good practice, but yet we don't fully f complete the cycle so that the implementation is strong. And so we're seeing bits and pieces. Does that do you agree with that, Ruben?

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Disagree or yeah, definitely. We we know how to help out with that type of engagement, you know? And it's just like anyone, right? If someone says to you, hey, you know, we're gonna have a meeting after school, right? Your first thought is, why? Why are we having a meeting after school? Because you feel the same way, right? You you the amount of your engagement is how much value you put into it. Right, how much value you perceive from it, I should say. So it's like for students the same thing. You know, I always say for like students, you know, it it starts to get to the point it's like Groundhog Day. You know that movie Groundhog Day? It's like the same day, day after day after day, right? And it's like, you know, they they try to do the same thing, right? First they try to manipulate the day, then they try to get out of the day, right? Uh but for teachers we have to make it so that they start to recognize the day's an opportunity, right? An opportunity for them to learn. Well, how does that happen? Right? And that's one of the that's one of the easiest things for for teachers to if you were to think about like your your best teachers that you ever had, you know, you're gonna realize that that they always had purpose behind what they were doing. You never they and you always knew why you were doing it. It it never seemed like wasted work, busy work, never seemed like that. You know, it always felt like that that person always was directing you somewhere. And for a lot of students, you know, it seems like busy work.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

So, Ruben, when you go into classrooms and do those visits, your purpose is to do what? Like why are you there?

SPEAKER_02 15:05

So, you know, we go in there to see to observe like um how instruction is really affecting.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Kind of as an independent consultant, kind of evaluating things? Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Yeah, and uh you know what it it's uh and the the thing is like when like sometimes I'll work with instructional coaches, right, from the school or from the and one of the things that you you uh try to help them out with is how for them to observe. Because again, they tend to observe teachers and what teachers are doing. And it's like okay, but look at the students, right? That's that's a great lesson that the teacher is doing, but none of it. Students aren't taking any of it. Right? Yeah, yeah. They're not understanding it. They're just you know, so w what's being accomplished, right? The goal is student learning.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Yeah, that that shift in in uh exactly what you're saying, observation, because even in discussions with teachers, well, I taught it when when you say, so where's the evidence, your kids got it. And they kind of look at you with perplexity and then say, but I taught it.

SPEAKER_04 16:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

And the follow-up then is, but did they learn it? And and I think that's what I hear you saying, Ruben. It's shifting the dynamic of where the evidence truly lies, right? Right. So part of part of this engagement, what I love about what you shared is that really and we talk about this here on Jacked Up all the time, about like what are some the this is doesn't have to be a dog and pony show.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

No.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

I I like the three components that you talk about in engagement. In other words, three, if you think about three ingredients, right? Three ingredients to a cake. Um, you know, can I do it? Do I have the resources? Do I value it? So can you speak a little bit to that? I know you've recently were talking about the value, the why, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Exactly right. And that's the that's motivation, right? There are like five main components of motivation. I I mentioned three, which is um, you know, do I feel like I can do it? That's a self-efficacy, right? Do I feel like I can do what I'm being asked to do? And you can think about that for students. I mean, you have some students that are are low academically, and they they might be stuck there, right? Um do I have the skills and resources to do it, right? Am I doing are you giving me what I need to be able to get it done? Um so you need those things to kind of start to feel like, okay, I want it, I want to engage, I want to do it. That third one is how much do I value it? That's a big one, right? How much do I value what it is that you're asking me to do? The the problem is what teachers tend to do is they try to create value through uh external motivation, right? Okay, guys, remember, this is worth 200 points, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:42

This is on the test. This will be on the test.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

This is right, this is a quarter of your grade. This is right, that's external that they're trying to create value from the outside, and that that only works so much, right? Um, because then you say, Oh, this then they'll say, How many points is this worth? This is worth five points. Oh, then I only have to put five points worth of effort into it, right? So that's that's the level of engagement I need to be in. So you you have to it you know, external motivation, I'm not saying get rid of them, but um you have to start also working in internal motivation. So and where does internal motivation come from? It comes from that creating that value. When I start to see value, when I see what's in it for me, when I understand where you're going, where you're taking me, then it becomes value. And and then I start to I start to engage and motivate on my own. Right. I don't need as much as um so and that's what that's what teachers aren't doing.

unknown 18:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

And that might be different for different students, right? And so it's a lot of that has to do with knowing your students.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Well, and again, if you if you do if you go from trying to create value for that um internally then you have some students that external values don't don't matter. And when I was teaching, I remember I had a kid that was not turning in work, and and so I'd say, Oh, you're gonna get a zero, and he'd be like, I don't care. It'd be like he he'd have like ten zeros, it'd be like, Man, you're gonna fail this class. He'd go like I don't care. Right. Right. Um But but I you know students do care about that. Um and but the problem is we don't we don't show them that, you know, like hey, here's what you're gonna be learning, here's what we're gonna be working on. Uh we don't do that. We we kind of think engagement is you know something, oh it has to be fun, it has to be entertaining. No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Um Yeah, uh and we've all seen students who have been engaged in something academic work that's challenging, and they go, wow, wasn't that fun? Right? Yeah, because because you actually got them thinking about something, actually doing something. You know. So that so that's really what we need to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yeah, I love that. Because again, the emphasis I think it's not a heavy lift. And one of my wise mentors said to me early on in my teaching career about the conversations we're having right now. And I remember out of that I thought, you know what, I'm gonna approach and and communicate about how we learn what learning is, but more importantly, I'm gonna start off with at the beginning of the year, it was a history course. And again, you could say that who cares about dead people? Most of us are concerned about what's going on right now. And I remember I started to shift my pitch at the beginning, my unit zero was welcome to Miss Louragano's class. And you are gonna become a student of thinking. And so my emphasis switched from the content to critical thinking. So when I got that pushback of why do I need to know this, and me trying to come up with all these, like as you say, Room, these external can like you gotta have this. It's important to know history so you don't report repeat history, you've got to graduate. And they're shaking their heads and going, No. But when I flipped it and said, You're gonna leave me as a thinker, and whatever you decide to do, we're using history as a vehicle to develop your thinking. And even just that move, Ruben, I feel that I don't have any data. But I felt like the buy-in and the motivation was because who can argue with that? Like this teacher wants me to be a problem solver and a communicator.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

But what you did was you created you created value for them. You created value in what they now, okay. I want that. I want what you're giving me, right? Um, and that and that is a I'm grabbed glad that you brought that up because teachers tend to think, oh, we have to tie it into real world, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Like, oh, you know, you're gonna be asked this when you're you're gonna be doing, you know, you're gonna paint a room someday and you need to know how many hiring a painter.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Exactly right. And kids will kids will argue that, right? No, I don't. I remember one teacher saying to kids, you know, you need to you need to know how to do this, you know, because you'll you know, when you get a job, you're gonna have to learn how to write properly, you're gonna have to and this one kid said, No not I'm gonna get a secretary I won't have to do anything right so so for him that's I'm not buying what it is that you're selling basically is what he's saying um but like when you put it that way it's like hey this is not for me this is for you you're gonna be a better critical thinker right even if it even if it's like hey guys we're learning this today because next week we're gonna be doing this and when you can do this next week's gonna be a lot easier you're saying okay all right then today makes sense to me because you know I don't want to struggle next week so I'm gonna I'm gonna buy in today um but yeah I I like it when you can tie students the the the skills that they're picking up right um how they're gonna be better because of it because that that really should be the purpose of it right it really should be shouldn't be learning content it should be how we interact with contact the ability to do that becoming better critical thinkers being able to analyze things right do all that kind of stuff is really what we should be doing 100% hundred percent so I like you mentioned it a little bit earlier we said alignment so when you think about these three areas to to to help students with the value and so on but you mentioned busy work earlier and I and even just the activity like activities go to teacher P teacher get another activity let's keep doing stuff and you peel it back and at the heart there's nothing maybe talk to me a little bit about the idea of connecting like engagement to instructional alignment.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

How how what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_02 23:33

So so here so again like I as I mentioned right number one question why do we have to and um I always tell teachers right you should have that that child sitting next to you when you're lesson planning to figure out don't go around grabbing kids and take them home. But you so when you say oh I'm gonna I'm gonna do this worksheet why am I doing this right that that little kid should tug at you and say why are you doing this? Because you have to think about the same thing. Why am I asking kids to do how is this going to help them right to reach that objective? How is it going to help them to be better at doing whatever I need them to um because you're right because a lot of times what happens is student teachers will be like oh this looks like a fun activity I'll have them do or um oh you know we I always have them do this at this time of year. It's like okay so what? Right? So if you think about like what are you trying to get students to really under what do you want them to really and then your instructional practices should align together. So if you so let's say that teacher let's go back to and so if I said to him you know he t let's say before I even observed it and I he told me he was going to do this, right? We're gonna talk about you know degradation of mineral and um and I saw him afterwards I say how did it go? Right did your students learn that and he might say yeah of course and that's and my next question would be well how do you know they get right what told you what what did you do to get them there? And so that that's where the alignment comes in right what how are our practices leading to that goal because that's what where's that learning happening and how are we getting there? And so alignment's a big because like you said you you could tell kids hey I'm gonna teach you how to be a good thinkers you're gonna be creative thinkers you're gonna be critical thinkers and then you then all you do is ask them to do memorization.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Right. Right read read and answer the three questions. Exactly right and don't do the extra credit ones that are critical thinkers.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

But then here's the problem with that right what teachers don't realize here's the problem with that your students are not going to trust you because you said we're gonna do this thing and now we're doing something right and so the big thing for teachers is you want your students to know that when you say something you right and so now what happens is you said we're gonna do this but we don't do it. You said today we're gonna we're gonna write uh in you know use text to infer information but we never use text. So next time when you say I'm gonna do something are we really? And then next time when you say this is for you is it really because you said things before that you don't follow through on. So the alignment is telling students look I'm taking you somewhere right so it's it's like this right you know if I say to you hey we're going to Disneyland right then you expect us to go to Disneyland right and then every every turn I take every freeway I take is all leading me to that to get to that point. And in mind right and if I'm consistent with this alignment right then students buy in. So then when they're not gonna ask me like why are you why are you going here? Why is this taking so long? Because they know it's like you have a plan. And so the alignment helps students to understand I can trust you and I can believe in you because you have a plan. What you told me you're gonna do we're doing it. You told me what we're gonna learn we're learning it. Right? You build that with your students and now your students are willing to take it I love that.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

I love that so what are some ways that you would say to a teacher there are some just practical ways to check and balance to make sure I think one that you alluded to what I heard you say is the evidence do you have actual evidence that ties back to the target? Because I think if I had a dollar for every time I heard a teacher say we talked about it. Which what does that really mean? I talked about it. Because we we didn't all thirty of us did not talk about something to the point of understanding. So right I mean is that is that on target and Ruben are there other suggestions then that you give to teachers when you sit down and debrief about some of those things just making sure alignment happens or in that planning process any suggestions you have?

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah I in the planning process like I said before you you need to you need to always be thinking about any activity you any practice that you're gonna have them do you need to ask yourself why am I doing how is this helping students to me just that one thing it's gonna help you better a lot when I've sat down with teachers and we start going over planning and they'll say to me they'll say okay first I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna have them do this and I'll say why are you having them do that? And the interest the first thing they'll go with like no no well I can change it and I go no no I'm not telling you to change it. What I'm telling you is you need to understand why you're doing something because if you don't understand why you're doing it your students will not understand what they're doing even though you'll be presenting it to them. So you first of all you need to understand why am I doing why am I choosing this worksheet? How is this worksheet going to help students to do that? The second thing which is you know I know we've you know you've done this I know Ed's done this you know talking to teachers is go through your own lesson plan. You know I think teachers don't do that enough. Like you're so if you're having students answer these questions what kind of responses do I think I'm gonna get right how are they going to answer this? Because sometimes you catch yourself and go, oh that's not what I thought right that's not what I was thinking would come out of there. So sometimes just have going through that. Those are good things to do you know when you're playing and then when you're in the classroom and you're in instruction like I've said before you should be reminding students about their objective. I if anytime I walk into your classroom whether it's beginning middle towards the end I should know what your objective is without having to because I've heard you say it now several times. Hey guys don't forget we're trying to do this. If that science teacher would have said all right guys good you're doing a good job don't forget we're looking at remember we're looking at micro degradation remember we're doing right keeping it in their mind so that they they're not walking away I mean you you this is your opp that one lesson this is your opportunity right and you need to you need to hammer this in for them I always say it's kind of funny like you know when kids come home and and and parents say what did you learn today? They always say nothing. Right? That's always the response nothing well of course because we have to remind them what it is that you're learning and they shouldn't walk out of their class and the you should not end the lesson the way that that teacher ended it. It should be where the teacher should say gather all in one okay guys remember this is what we were trying to learn today what do you think about it what did you feel what did you take how did this remind you of what we did to kind of as they're walking away they're walking away with what the purpose was you know that should always happen. And those kind of things those are like you said it's not it's not all of a sudden I have to totally change right you can add some tweaks to what you're doing and increase engagement right right away. You can do that. And think about think about even when you're interacting with students right so you get students started on some type of work and you go up to little Johnny and you say hey Johnny do you know what our objective is today we're trying to get done no all right that's fine. Remember on the board you can see it over the board you want to read it to me? Yeah we're going to do this this and this okay great do you know how you're gonna do that? Not really sure. Well look on the board it says how we do that. Uh yeah okay you think you can do that right this also gives you an opportunity right to kind of see where that suit needs support. Do you think you can do that? Yeah okay get started I'll come around again see how things are going. Or you go up to that student you go hey Sally you know do you know what your objective is today? Yeah we're supposed to do this great do you need any help on it? No I'm okay. Alright then get started on it. Or you know yeah I'm not really sure how to do this part. All right let me help right but what you're doing is you're focusing their learning on here's what we're trying to get done today. Not going up to Johnny and say Johnny get started on that right?

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Johnny why don't why don't you get started on that come on come on get started on that and then they're responsibly well I don't have a pencil. Alright we'll get a pencil but they have no idea whether they even know what they're doing. They don't even know how they're doing it or if they need any help.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah and words what I hear you saying too Ruben I think words matter right like even the language that we choose and how we again approaching it from we're critical thinkers using history as a vehicle today we're learning instead of we're doing a worksheet right like we're going to understand blank and do this cognitively so yeah that's I think language can be a shift that if we're just conscious of how we say things again, you know you need to know this because it's on the test right away. Maybe being reflective of some of the things that we say that's why I'm a big advocate for video swivel in the classroom being able to kind of self-reflect because we do these things I think Ed you said at the beginning nobody does this out of malice. Like we're not we're not getting into the profession to do this. But we we slip into habits we do what we know and and so the self-awareness of of having that being able to step back and and think about it.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Yeah I I agree with you I agree with you a thousand percent I I have not I've not met a teacher who doesn't you know and want to help you and you know but again what happens like you said we get we get into habits we get comfortable we don't think we don't think about how much impact we if we just you know some some minor changes on on what we're doing with um and how we're approaching it and and helping them out right um even you know one of the things is kind of on a similar line you know I always say if teachers could just make one switch too which is asking students how do you know right so a student says you know oh you know what's what's one plus one too how do you know right how do you know that because you're you're you're helping them to think through they're not guessing right um but you're helping them to start thinking about my my answers come from something else right um and then the other thing is you expose for everyone else what it means to um and I saw this video one a third grade class and they were doing like a reading right and the teacher was having kids you know take turns read and so one kid one little girl was reading and she came across a word and she stopped and you know the teacher looked to go oh yes oh class that's a very big word does anybody know that word and one kid raised his hand and he goes yeah Albuquerque right and you know and the all the kids look at him wow you know because if you've seen how the word Albuquerque is spelled if you don't know it you could kind of what is that word? Right so the ch but the teacher did something really good and the teacher said how did you know that was Albuquerque and he said we have family in Albuquerque we go to Albuquerque every summer right so what that teacher did for the other students is saying you know intelligence isn't something right it's something that we can all so he knew Albuquerque because of it not because he's naturally smart and gifted because the problem is when when students don't see that then they think like oh that kid's just smart I'm not right but when they see like oh that kid you know that kid got that because he read it oh I could have done this I could do the same and that's motivating right one of the things is can I do it is the first thing you said Ruben can I do it I'm building that that I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

That belief that it's not fixed. Exactly right it's it's you can fix it I can do it.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

And and now you're giving me the skills to do it right which is you're showing me I can go back to the text right um I so I can talk to someone about it. I can get that information somewhere else I don't have to just try to hold it into my brain and pull it up if it's not I was going to ask um we had a guest on that talked about we were talking about discipline and it was interesting she said bring in your stakeholders and your stakeholders can be your students like why don't we ask the students what do you feel Ruben about pulling in students and how how can learners be more active in tricking slim self-assessing progress monitoring their own place to the target to the standards they're trying to attain have you seen any of that in classrooms?

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Have you in other words that I take that ownership of knowing the target so I'm talking about like physically like recording it so it's not just on the board but getting to the point where learners actually take some action.

SPEAKER_04 36:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Have you seen anything like that? I'm just thinking of more strategies for teachers to provide students access to that.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Yeah the um there's a couple of things. I remember when I was teaching I worked with a a teacher I I learned actually a lot from her um and she was a math teacher and what she would do at the end of the year she would she would hold on to throughout the year and then at the end of the year um give the students back their work for them to take a look at work right because one of the things we don't do is we don't have students see like I couldn't do that and now I can right so to see their own growth. They have to see their own growth.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

So they have to so you and I've seen teachers use have kids keep their own dollars right and they have their own folder and they would take out their folder add to their data chart like here's my goal and here's where I'm at here's what I'm doing right so that they can start to see right that they are growing because I think kids don't realize that right like you couldn't do this in the beginning of the year now you can do it you know towards the middle because again like you said that that's a self-et case that growth mindset right so um I've seen that as being a way of helping um and they should be really and you could have um students answer that question for you you could have as so our goal was today was to do this right how do you feel you didn't yeah where are you in relationship to that now right yeah and yeah you've probably you know you've heard of the strategy um KW the muddy water one of them right where you put down what's what's still the muddiest right kids can you can use that with your objective right what's what you know what is what's still what's what's clear for you now what's muddy right what is still you can't see whatever it is you can do that and then they can they can write that down so you can kind of get a an assessment on what a little informal quick right exactly right yeah yeah I love that idea of of kind of showing kids where they where they were at the beginning and you know throughout the whole process and I'm just thinking to myself like it'd be so cool like like in a music class for example you you know you record kids at the beginning where they were especially as they're learning an instrument and then you check back in and a c because you you spend so much time trying to build muscle memory and different things you know whether it's music or or whatever it happens to be and you don't notice the growth because it is slow. All of a sudden you can you know you can do something that kind of feels natural and you forget that it was not at all natural. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

That's a good it would be great if we could do in a classroom like you're talking about a music instrument you you start out by saying you play them a song a music whatever it is and say you know what you can't do this right now but by the end of the year no way right that's the thing is right it's more motivator they get the guitar and they like I I can't do this you go you know all right fine then they start to learn then yeah midway through you go all right how are you doing now? Right? Let's try that song again and see what we're doing. And then oh you know I'm a little bit closer to that. Yeah we're talking music but the same thing applies to other students can happen if we don't do that enough for students and say you know even if it's something like you know taking a look you're gonna do a history lesson you're taking a look at you know and you maybe you you point out some things about Roman you know history and you go you know what this isn't happening you don't know anything about this right now but you know what by the end of this you will you'll understand these things by the end right you'll understand how you know I don't know how a senator is different than our senators. You'll understand right you're telling them here we're going somewhere. In fact you know curiosity you know they say that you know if the brain asks a question the brain will seek an answer right so when you pose these questions to students you're telling their brain you need to seek an answer. And that's just the way the brain works right the brain like doesn't like those open-ended things where you just leave it.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

So you know you're what that's what you're doing you're trying to build that for them you know and helping them like see wow there's here's where we're and I remember when we went through that whole the power of a target and I remember our emphasis in our district was the essential question tied to that Reuben because that again was kind of that picture at the front like what's worth dying for?

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Right?

SPEAKER_01 40:51

What's worth dying for? Like everyone can relate to it everyone can have an opinion about it. We're not yet in the content and talking about the Roman Empire and the war that we're going to look at but asking that and then again journaling do whatever document it and then two lessons later we've gotten into some stuff. Now let me ask you this. Would you still do that? How do you see that playing out here? You know and so like you alluded to keep going back to the target and checking it's not about one and done. It's about now that we've learned this much, this experience where do you feel you are now and and I think that's where the motivation lies because I'm getting closer and closer to the end in mind that we stated is what our goal is you know it's that marathon run.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

We're getting closer and closer to the end which everything can relate to as being going and going back to those things we talked about is like again do I feel like I can do it and do I have the skills and resources to do it and do I exactly what you just said is hitting all three of those that's that's the litmus test. You're gonna be more motivated.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Yeah yeah and again we relate to that as adults so we talked a lot about teachers I think just kind of wrapping and bringing around I know you do a lot of work with leaders like what would you say Ruben like what's something a leader could do again we like to be practical and valuable like just something tomorrow like what could a leader do to move their staff closer to the kinds of things we're talking about today. Do you have any ideas in regards to that?

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Yeah um you know I've been in a lot of schools I'm sure you guys like okay the objective you know they ask administrators ask teachers to write the objective um but we know that that's not that you know a lot of times kids so asking teachers to do more I I would say you know in your observation is don't worry about what the teacher's doing look at what and how they're and once you do that you start to see where the gaps are right or where missed opportunities. And the other thing what we find from this is the the two things I find with with leaders um they don't always do a good job with that same motivator. Teachers need to why they're asked to do something they also sometimes what stops their buy-in is they don't feel that they can do it. You've given them a new program and you know for whatever reason they're a little worried about implementing it so they don't feel like they can do it. And that and that exhibits in a pushback. Or what they'll tell you is like well we don't have the time to do this. We don't have what they're telling you is they're giving you that number two we don't have the skills and resources to do it. My motivation is low. And then the third one again is that why are we doing this? We worked with Catapult we worked with um a district in Vegas and they were implementing professional learning communities, right? That's and so we went in and I was working with several and I met with the teacher group and the first thing they said to me is that they go like I don't we don't know why we're doing this. This is kind of silly right and so my first meetings with them was explaining why PLCs are effective and why they help out with student learning. And they said You know what? No one ever told us this.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

Yeah, it's so ironic, right, that the administrators lose. The expectation is is on the the teachers, but then they're not. Exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

That's what yeah, that's what we're saying. And and so for you can look at when we talk about for administrators, when you look at implementation or change, you can look at it from three different right, knowledge, motivation. So you look at what you're trying to implement or what you want the teacher or your teachers to do, knowledge. Do they need more knowledge? Do they not know how to do this? That means that's professional development, right? Do they need professional development or some type of training for um Do they need do they do I have to think about their motivation? And we just talked about that, right? Self-efficacy, skills and resources, value.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Should we answer the question why?

SPEAKER_02 44:46

I need to I need to think about that to get the buy-in, right? And then the third thing that a lot of a lot of leaders don't think about is the organization, which means what is the organization doing that will hinder our own progress, right? And I'll give you an example of that. I was working at a district with their social studies departments. Um and so they wanted to implement more critical thinking in their social studies. So we went in there, we did profession development, we did the knowledge, right? We went in there, I went in there to do the coaching, right, to help out with the motivation to talk about that, to create value for them on changing the way they were doing instruction so that they would would focus more on more higher level thinking and less of the low level thinking. You know. And and then we were in a meeting and and one of these teachers, you know, said to me, said, You know what? We love what you're doing, and we agree with everything you're saying, right, about having kids engage in higher level thinking. They said, But uh, our district has uh our students do an annual test assessment that goes throughout the whole district that our jobs depend on, and that is straight memorization. He said, So we have to be in remote memorization in order for them to pass these tests. So the district was cutting themselves out, right? They they put all this effort into bringing people in to help change the teachers' motivation and instructional practices, but by this one assessment, they were keeping teachers right. So we have to look at that last piece. What are we doing to help those teachers? What are we doing that hinders those teachers? So that no, that's we call it a KMO, right? That's not my idea. You know, higher level thinking, but so that KMO, right? Knowledge motive, you can look at anything from that standpoint. You can look at an individual teacher from that, you can look at your whole school from that. Um and that will help that will help set a core.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Yeah, and I love that because that ties back to the external motivation we talked about with kids. Like it's on the test. Well, here I'm telling you do your job because they gotta pass the test. You know what I mean? Ed, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

You were gonna say, No, I was just thinking the same thing. Like it it's so obvious, you know, from the outside that that's one of the big issues for that district, but how did they not see that themselves, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:09

But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Yeah. I mean, the same thing happened with teachers. You know, we take a look at our students and somehow we think that there's a problem there. We don't look at ourselves and say, well, what what are we what can we do to change that? And I always say, you know, teachers can't get caught up in and districts get caught up. The oh well meaning like, oh, these kids, you know, they don't read as much at home. Oh well. These kids, you know, they're coming from a they have they hear a second language.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Oh well, they start pointing the finger out the scroll host or yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Well, it's yeah, it's a it's like saying, I don't have to do anything about that. Instead of saying, All right, this is the situation, what can I do about it? Where can I have that impact? What what is my you know um involvement here? What what do I do? And so district leaders do the same thing, right? They're like, oh, these teachers, right? We just need to change without thinking. Well, what's our part in it? Right?

SPEAKER_03 48:00

And I think that's really the value that an outside person lends to an organization like that. Because you know, sometimes you're so in it that you don't you d you you fail to see the obvious, you know. And having somebody outside observe and and give some non-evaluative um feedback is very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Yeah, seeing the forest through the trees, right? We sometimes get stuck in our lane, and so that's the power of that outside perspective. I love it. Well, thank you so much. We know that you're busy and we were excited to be able to get you here on time. I'm so excited we are finally able to do it, but what a rich conversation. Um and we we have notes, and so with your permission, we'll we'll put some information in there and kind of the the transcript will be there with the the real simplistic piece of looking at those three areas and and getting students to take ownership and see value.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

You're so involved still in in so many different areas of education. It's great to have your knowledge and to share it with our.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

And keep in touch moving because we can always have you back. Because like we said, we just hit the one area.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

You can tell. Get me talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Remember, this was what we did in Germany, right? As we're eating Schnitzel, right? So all hours of the night, having a glass of wine and talking about good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Oh yeah. I think you know what it comes down to, and I know you guys, it's uh you want you want these teachers to and you know that they can be. And I know that they want to be. Yes. Sometimes they just need that that better under they just need some some guidance, advice, whatever it is. Right. But you know, I I've been in schools and I, you know, I was a principal at one, you know, and seen students, and you know, you know from my own. This is what learning it is.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

I think that's why we all get into it, right? Yeah, I agree. So well, thank you again, Dr. Ruben Cortez. It was a pleasure. We love to have you. It's great to see you again.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Take care, and we'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_03 50:04

That brings us to the end of today's episode of Jacked Up. I hope the ideas we explored gave you something meaningful to think about, something you can apply, and something that expands the way you see the world.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

If today's conversation helped you learn, grow, or understand a topic a little more deeply, make sure you follow and like. Share this episode with someone who's curious, someone who loves learning, or someone who could benefit from the insights we covered.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

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SPEAKER_01 50:38

Until next time, stay curious, stay engaged, and keep leveling up your mind. And most importantly, stay jacked up. Signing off.