The Gen Z AI Revolt: Parental Pushback and the "Outdoor Cat" Solution

Episode Overview

Welcome back to JackED UP! In this episode, we continue our conversation with returning guest (first guest) Vince Doud, diving deeper into AI in education. We explore the growing community pushback against AI and technology in schools, introduce Vince's framework for AI literacy (the "AI permit" and "AI license"), and discuss the surprising generational divide around AI adoption. Vince also shares his powerful "cat analogy" for defining a healthy human-AI relationship.

Community Pushback on AI in Schools

• Why affluent districts are facing parental resistance to technology and AI
• The role of outdated school policies in fueling controversy
• The equity dimension: who has the privilege to push back?
• How intentional deployment makes all the difference

The Four Pillars of AI Literacy — "Earning Your AI Permit"

Before students (or educators) can effectively use AI, they need to understand the foundational competencies:

• Prompting: How to communicate effectively with AI
• Verification: How to fact-check and validate AI outputs
• Ethics: Understanding appropriate vs. inappropriate AI use
• Data Privacy: Knowing what information is safe to share

Vince shares hands-on activities he uses with 9th graders to teach these pillars, and explains why even elementary students can begin learning these concepts.

AI Modes — "Earning Your AI License"

Once you've earned your permit, it's time to learn when and how to use AI. Vince introduces five AI modes:

• Idea Mode: Brainstorming and generating possibilities
• Learning Mode: Using AI as a tutor or learning partner
• Evaluator Mode: Having AI provide feedback on your work
• Tool Mode: Letting AI do tasks for you (only after you're already an expert!)
• Simulator Mode: Practicing scenarios and skills in a safe environment

A key insight: students should only use AI in Tool Mode after they've already mastered the skill. The craftsman gets the most out of tools because they're the expert directing them.

The Generational Divide

We explore a surprising trend: younger adults (millennials and Gen Z) are among the most skeptical of AI, despite being digital natives. Jacqueline's 25-year-old daughter and Ed's 30-year-old daughter both express strong concerns about:

• Environmental impact of AI (data center energy consumption)
• Job displacement and economic insecurity
• Loss of creativity and authentic human expression

Vince contextualizes this as "whiplash" — a generation that was pushed into technology during COVID, witnessed the dark side of social media, and is now cautious about being sold another tech wave.

The Cat Analogy — What's Your Relationship with AI?

Vince closes with a memorable framework for thinking about how we engage with AI:

• The Wildcat: Fearful, hostile, avoidant — trying to attack or shut down AI entirely
• The House Cat: Fully dependent, comfortable, but living an artificial existence where everything is provided
• The Outside Cat: The ideal. Informed, intentional, independent — benefiting from AI when needed while retaining agency and authentic human experience

The question Vince leaves us with: What cat are you?

Guest Bio

Vince Doud is an instructional technology coach and educator with deep expertise in AI integration in K-12 settings. He has spent the past several years on the front lines of AI exploration in schools and is returning to the classroom this fall to teach video production at Audubon. Vince develops practical frameworks and hands-on activities to help students and educators build AI literacy and use AI intentionally.

Resources Mentioned

• OpenAI Codex (upcoming tool for local file management)
• Vince's "Teaching Management System" concept (in development)
• The Four Pillars board game (created by Vince)

Connect With Us

Have thoughts on this episode? Want to share what kind of "cat" you are? Reach out to us on social media or email us your feedback!

#jackeduppodcast #newpodcast #education #knowledgeispower

 #global #professionaldevelopment

Transcript

Speaker 7 0:04 Speaker 1 0:22

Jack ED Up!, an educational podcast hosted by Jackie and Ed. Jack ED up dives headfirst into the wild world of learning with unfiltered energy, sharp insights, and a profound love of all things education. From classroom innovations and policy debates to quirky pedagogy and unexpected lesson from the trenches, this podcast breaks down complex topics with humor, heart, and a whole lot of passion. If you're an educator, lifelong learner, or just someone who believes that curiosity is a superpower, get ready to get jacked up about education. Brought to you by Alignment Consulting LLC. Intentional strategies, impactful solutions. t

Speaker 6 1:10

Alrighty, welcome back to the Jacked Up Podcast. Last time we had this guest on where we looked at the big picture of AI in the classroom with Mr. Vince Doud, and guess what? He's back. If you recall, if you listened, if this is your first time, we did discuss some misconceptions in regards to AI and just where people are and what they believe about it as educators. We talked about policy and he gave some examples of the schools he's working with about what that looks like. We talked about the scope of AI in education and some of the benefits of unloading some of those work tasks that we have. And also I remember Vince talking about like easy differentiation or scaffolding for students. So that first discussion was really popular. It intrigued our listeners as well as Ed and I. And one of the things that he talked about was the AI core competencies, or in other words, like four pillars of understanding that students should master. So we are so excited tonight he is back with us to dive deeper into those as well as a couple other technology pieces. Ed, you were going to say some things about what you know what's going on with AI and what we're going to do today.

Speaker 3 2:28

Jackie, I failed to mention that, but uh, Vince, you were our first guest on this podcast. Yes. It's so cool to have you back. And you know, the landscape's changing so quickly. I feel like we could have you on, you know, every other episode, you know, because things are changing so fast. And it reminds me this time last year, I was Jackie and I were talking before the podcast, and uh I was given a in-service to other educators, and it was on AI. And it was so revolutionary a year ago, these people, you know, they may have been familiar with Chat GPT a little bit, but used it, you know, for a recipe to find them what they were gonna have for dinner or to help them lose weight. They didn't really use it in the classroom. And man, has it changed in in one year's time, it seems like everybody's using it. And some of the statistics I shared last year, people would kind of be like, uh, obviously, you know, like I think fifty percent of high school kids were using it, eighty percent of college kids, and and this is probably a two-year survey, two years ago. But so much has changed, and and I've kind of been keeping track of some things nationally and the trends nationally, and there's some pushback in some places. Um and some places the real affluent communities they're pushing back on it, and they want their kids being taught by by people and not and not um computers, and and I feel like really there's you don't have to be in one or the other camp. There's probably somewhere in the middle where we can all you know, most people can live comfortably and kind of use AI um intelligently and and not have it replace um teachers, not have it replace your mind, your creativity. And I really want to discuss that with you today when we you know, and I'm sure some of your pillars address that as well. But before we get started, if you could just remind our listeners who you are, what your experience is and kind of uh your passion with AI.

Speaker 4 4:16

Sure. Yeah, just first off, thanks for having me. Happy to be back. Great to have you back. Yeah, excited. And continuing the conversation because yes, as you mentioned, it's uh ever changing. Um but I spent uh roughly about eight years as a video production teacher um uh in a uh eight to twelve uh grades, uh uh junior senior high school, and then I transitioned to an instructional technology coach. Um that title got changed uh to an instructional coach. Uh and then um I'm actually gonna be transitioning back to the classroom, back to a video production classroom in a at a different district than I've uh served in before. Um lucky that's a good idea. Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be I I feel like I'm I'm returning back to the classroom with like a new set of armor. New set of tools. Uh uh, you know, I have now vocabulary and I kinda understand what I was maybe scratching at before and I have real um I feel like I have yeah, a better set of tools and new set of armor going back in the classroom and I'm really, really excited uh and and uh yeah, looking forward to this September.

Speaker 6 5:18

So um possibilities, right? Like the possibilities are endless, you're probably feeling.

Speaker 4 5:24

Yeah, and now I mean I just left the classroom right uh when it when ChatGPT came onto the scene, so I I was so privileged to have a a space as a instructional coach to where my job was just exploring the technology, being on the front lines, uh delivering professional development, uh getting in front of students. So like it was I was in a really unique situation to kind of build my capacity uh and now hopefully really bring that back to the front lines and and r really practice what I was preaching.

Speaker 6 5:53

So Yeah, it's like an education, right? Uh it job embedded education for yourself. The past years have probably just equipped you with you're ready to rock and roll in the classroom and do those things. Um Ed, you were gonna start because I know you've read some things in regards to the pushback, right? So let's start with the pushback.

Speaker 3 6:11

Um it's a great launching point, I think, because Benjamin, you discussed this the first time around, really, like and and help us understand like how how do you use AI to you know educational, not replacing your mind, but expanding your mind and kind of bringing some clarity to some issues and um helping kids, helping teachers, but not replacing any of that stuff.

Speaker 4 6:35

Um, I mean to simplify, I kind of have a uh uh well and we'll definitely touch on I guess the pillars more specifically and a and a larger framework behind it, but I think it's truly at the ground level having an understanding about the task that's in front of you, minus AI. What is the task that's in front of me, what is the relationship to me, where is my level of capacity in achieving this task, and like having that I think that's where the critical thinking uh we really need to support and kind of bolster at the front line of um even before you get into research or getting into the actual content um is understanding the task. Because then if you understand the task in front of you, you can then appropriately then designate, okay, I'm gonna use AI in this fashion, or I'm not gonna use AI in this fashion because this the context of me working with a task is you know that's not appropriate, or I've been told that you know I can't use it in this way. So I think there needs to be a a grounding, a formal understanding, okay, my teacher just gave me this task, or my school just gave this initiative to me. What don't just go to AI, you can absolutely go right into AI and just say, hey, do this for me, but for us to be leading the way, you have to ha you have to be able to uh it's kind of having a mission statement. I'm using AI because I'm at this level and I have this set of intentions for my use.

Speaker 3 7:57

And you have to establish some guardrails and like there you don't have to be in one camp or the other. I feel like there's a spot a space for AI that can be used effectively, efficiently. Make your, you know, whatever, whether you're a teacher or a student, make your work more efficient and more productive and and and more meaningful, really. But there's you know, you have to have a a framework established, like you said.

Speaker 4 8:21

I I I do believe there's a middle ground for it. I think um we've definitely been feeling this kind of whiplash uh between like everyone everyone using AI being kind of uh uh very positive and optimistic about it, which in the past year things have kind of went much more being conscious, being very kind of um very conscious around uh around every aspect of it. And I think I guess kind of thinking about it, COVID forced us into this like okay, you have to be on the technology side. We can't not be on to technology and manage through these next year and a half of COVID. So so we all had to be on that technology side. And then I think there was this pushback to finding some balance. Um, and then I think there's now some people trying to go, you know, still continue going that in that opposite direction. But I think we can live through. That's a great point. Yeah, that's a great point.

Speaker 6 9:13

Well, and I was just gonna say, Ed, like what you shared with me about what's going on in districts and looked into it is that exactly that pushback, that swinging back to the other side of where teachers, communities are putting pressure on schools to literally reduce screen time. And so with that, I think it what the interesting thought that came to me when I when I looked into that is that is the push for lower screen time like rejection tech rejecting technology like as a whole, like off the Chromebooks, is AI separated for that, or do you feel like it's connected? And really what I feel like the overriding piece was demanding more human connection. You know what I mean? Like when I when I looked at why p these these districts are getting this push, it's like it's the human element. So do you feel, Vince, that like they're pushing back on technology in general? Is AI a part of that or is it just the tablet time? Am I am I making sense when I ask that?

Speaker 4 10:15

Yeah, and I think it's uh it's kind of touchy because it's very personal to everyone and their perspective and their experience with it. Um it's it's definitely um in the mix. AI is definitely in the conversation of the technologists in the classroom. I think it gets bundled in with social media and not the most um not a not aligned, but I I think they are different levels and different engagements of technology. Um so I see I see the the kind of pushback for that. Um but I I I I kind of lost track. I forget the the main question. I was talking about.

Speaker 6 10:50

Yeah, no, well, I mean what's I guess what's interesting is I agree with your swing, right? Like there's this pattern of like we were forced into it, we're digging it, it helped save us to continue be in touch, and now we're districts are literally parents are coming and saying, we want policy that says we want to strip the amount of time or extremely reduce the amount of time that kids are engaged with technology. So I guess here's my thing as an educator, how do we balance, like how do we embrace the future? Like the reality is kids need the pillars, i.e. the skills, but communities and parents are saying stop it. Like, how do we balance the tool if if that makes sense? How do we satisfy both camps? Um, right, as people there trying to serve students to be prepared for the future, I guess.

Speaker 4 11:40

I I think it I think it could be it could definitely be a conversation at the ground level, school level, classroom level, community level, but it's almost society-based too, to where um we have these we have these screens in front of us at home that are our personal devices that we are very comfortable with and and we use them to to to do good things and to waste time. But then in the scre in the the school, it's that same exact medium. So if it is not entirely intentional or thoughtful ha when you're putting that screen in front of the kid, they're gonna naturally go back to uh, you know, whatever doom scrolling or gaming. And I think the research now has come out to where parents see the negative aspects of their kids on their personal devices at home, and then they're hearing about wait, you just spent this amount of time at school on your device. I know you're not doing anything good at home on it, so what could you be doing in school is any different?

Speaker 5 12:33

Okay.

Speaker 4 12:34

And I think that's justified um because it's not always intentionally deployed. Um, but I I think that's where where how do we how do we the I I'm I'd be curious if everyone who is is rightfully so demanding appropriate technology in the classroom does practice that appropriate technology on their own personal level.

Speaker 6 12:57

Yeah, that's a great question. Well, because it's interesting, I was thinking that what you said is like is AI use different from scrolling in social media? And like right away my brain is going to solutions, and I'm thinking like intentional conversations have to be had, right? Like, because really when I ask you this, I don't really know what these parent groups are thinking, you know, but I love what you just said, like that makes sense. Like, oh my gosh, my kid is just a zombie at home. Oh, they go to school and they do the same thing, so let's stop doing it at school, versus let's have some really meaningful conversations, because again, as an educator, Vince, when you shared like your idea of skills and knowledge of AI, that I was like tapping into that. Do parents even understand that, right? And not to be disrespectful, but about how do we have these conversations? You know, we don't we we can't assume what people are thinking and what they know and those kinds of things.

Speaker 4 13:54

Yeah, and I and I think some I mean even even myself, I have those epiphanies where I'm like, oh wait, I'm on my cell phone in front of my kids right now. Like, I have to check myself. So, like you you have to be very you have to be, yeah, I think uh recognizing it in your home, recognizing it in the community, um, and and hopefully yeah, I think the conversations are yeah, the the place to start. And being honest with yourself and and how you're deploying it for your own use, how you're modeling it for other people to be using it. Um so yeah, I wish I had the the the similar work.

Speaker 6 14:29

Yeah, no. It's just a great thing to raise some questions for our listeners out there.

Speaker 3 14:33

So it's relatively new. You you just wonder where is it going to be in five years, and and like if districts haven't established clear policy and clear guidelines and and guardrails for kids and teachers, they have to do it now because it's like it's here. Like the districts that are out in the Philly burbs that are that are pushing back on us, the parents, and I happen to know the happen to know people that work in that one district and and who send their kids to that district, and you know, their their policy doesn't align with what's happening in the in the classroom now, and it's you know, the district has moved on from what it had been, but they hadn't updated their policy, so the parents are pushing back using a policy that's outdated. And it's it's just fascinating, really, and it's one of those things really like you hear this, I love the quote, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, right? Like we're at a point now where that district, they don't have textbooks anymore. The curriculum is is is um computer based, you can't really opt your kid out of that because there is no other send the corner with what yes. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Right. You kind of have to if if anybody out there that's in a district that hasn't updated their policy and they have that in there, you need to address it now because it only takes one parent to to come and push back on something that that you really can't accommodate, but you might be legally obligated to. Right.

Speaker 6 15:57

What do you and and Ed, you said about the the district itself, like my mind goes just like kind of an equity piece because that comes up as well. Um I think you mentioned some of the districts d d what are the demographics, what are the social economic of the districts that are pushing back? Because equity always, you know, kind of what I think is that we're missing the human element is what I think the pushback is. Like we don't want to lose the human side of education. Is that what you feel was some of the I don't.

Speaker 3 16:30

I think it's it's more to do with what Vince was alluding to earlier. Like the parents I and I don't know, up there but I kind of get the feeling these are very affluent districts, very highly educated parents who b may or may not have control in the home. And so they want, you know, s they want the schools to kind of take owner. I I don't know exactly, but it it's just fascinating to me to to kind of try to dissect what's really going on there and what's what's really at the core of that.

Speaker 4 17:00

And I mean if if you're seeing that in in the in those uh those districts that have that demographic, and could it have been a contributing factor that they had the budget initially to get those they were one of the first districts in the country? Okay, okay.

Speaker 3 17:14

This district was one of the first in the country to do one-on-one.

Speaker 6 17:18

There you go. That's a great point.

Speaker 4 17:22

And and maybe just a lesson to be learned. I don't I'm not entirely sure. Um I mean definitely there's there's a lesson to be learned, but um I'd be curious to see if we had students or schools that were later in doing one-on-one, if they're as if they have not degrade you know, the schools have not degraded as quickly as well. That's a good point.

Speaker 6 17:50

So thinking of some of the pushback, let's move forward to, like I said, what a lot of people made comments about, and I had some conversations after your first episode was the whole idea of you know, pillars of AI competence. Um, in other words, like really diving into and thinking about a framework in which we can hold on to and ask ourselves to what extent are students competent or and or love curriculum, what does it look like throughout the grade levels, right? Vince, like some of those questions, like um, so if you don't mind just kind of starting back from ground zero, like what are the pillars, and then we'll just have some discussions about that, what that looks like throughout education.

Speaker 4 18:32

Sure. Um I I'm not sure if I gave if I had this kind of package this way, but I I've since kind of not simpli I've simplified it, I just package it in kind of earning your AI permit and earning your AI license. Yes. And what you're referring to, the AI core competencies as part of your AI permit. And I see that as these are I break them down into four pillars, prompting, uh, verification, ethics, and data privacy. And those are the equivalent to knowing your left and your right when you're driving. Uh knowing the difference between a stop sign and a yield sign, knowing um, you know, what a what a a double yellow line versus a dotted yellow line is. And those are things that you have to consider every time you get behind the wheel to keep yourself self safe, to keep others safe, and to get you where you're going. And the equivalent of understanding those basic foundational things is understanding that your words matter, that your prompts matter, understanding that verification is needed and and uh the means of verification, understanding that not all data is is safe, understanding the ethical reasons of uh am I bringing bias into this, is the data clean, is this taking something away from me? So those are things anytime that you use AI, every time that you even prompt into AI or receive an output, you should be considering those four things. And I I would and even if you just have an understanding of those four things, if you're using AI, I would consider that as uh you've you've earned your AI permit. If you can talk about, oh, I'm about to use AI, and oh, I have to be thoughtful about the answers being right or wrong, you you're talking AI permit language.

Speaker 6 20:08

You know your science. You know your science, like you said.

Speaker 4 20:11

Did you know? Yeah, yeah, it's it's this is I've yeah, I've kind of had the the sh the core structure and then I this is how I've been packaging it. Um great.

Speaker 3 20:22

It's I love this. It kind of walks teachers through what those competencies are and at each at each level too, not just you know, across the you know, so it's gonna be different for K to five as it is for middle school and then high school.

Speaker 4 20:36

To I I think rigor I mean I I I with my daughter, she's uh seven, turning eight, and uh we the conversations of AI is in the in the household to to varying degrees, but there's been times where she's just sitting in the back of the car and uh I say, Mag Magnolia, is there things that you shouldn't put into AI? After conversations we've had, oh my birthday and my social security number, I don't know what the social security number is, you know social AI. So I think I think you can have those conversations at you know uh I I think I would say that the court competencies can be had as at the error breed below you know and tough. Not not that you're ever putting them in front of the computer, but if there is this thing called AI. If you are ever engaging with AI, your words matter, data matters, yeah. And just so that it's in the the their language and that vocabulary that they've heard before.

Speaker 6 21:31

Well, and that's what I think is the exciting possibility of really expanding on these four that you have. And really, in a sense, just like we do with any other content or skill in in science in history, right? Like what does it look like at the K5? What does it look like all the way through elementary, middle, and high? Um, I I think that would be worthy to have that kind of vertical integration, right, of what these pillars look like and what so what would it look like if a the grader really understood prompting at fifth grade? What does that look like? And and then further, what are the learning tasks that I could design in order to support that student to do to do that? Um you know, like what like you said, how how do we introduce ethics and verification to younger students? You just kind of gave an example um about like safety of data. But like could you like just thinking of that, so the if to my understanding is like bias, verification is like the source check, right? Yeah, what would that look like at an elementary level? Like what are some of the things that you've done with your students activity wise? Because I know you mentioned that.

Speaker 4 22:38

Yeah so I've I've done this at the lowest level I've introduced this at was where I've actually ran these activities with students as ninth graders and I've ran these in station rotations to where for say uh ethics I had a station to where it was uh two columns, one column was can't enter or no uh don't uh shouldn't use allowed the use and not to use. And then I had a bunch of ethical um kind of scenarios printed out on cards um writing your best friend's wedding speech, uh quitting from a job, uh finishing an essay, uh this, that, and the other, and the students had to um align them into the categories of this wasn't a an allowed use of AI, this is not allowed use. The data in privacy is a similar one to I have a bunch of different data points on cards and this is don't put it in AI, do put it in AI and it ranges from like your favorite color to your address. Prompting I've done it to where I say I give a general task and then I have a bunch of different prompts uh printed out and from good to worse and they they evaluate and sort of they they rank them and then on the back end is the suggested order and then they kind of reveal and flip it.

Speaker 8 23:50

Love it.

Speaker 4 23:52

So there's that's that's the one and I have physical cards um kind of designed and printed out for that. And Fizz So that's one means of it. I think we have a board game that that that goes through all that stuff. It's like a a a roll your dice and you let the founding I'm reading your outline and I just just a quick question.

Speaker 3 24:14

So like do you envision kids like somebody's monitoring where kids lie on this um continuum, right? So some kids they have their permit, other kids have their license and the teacher's kind of monitoring this and um how's it work?

Speaker 4 24:31

So I would say I've I I I've only thought about this as like moving as a class to where I wouldn't be I I don't think I would get or I haven't thought about this actually I don't think I would get to a point where I was giving certain kids you've earned your license and you haven't yet. I think it'd be okay we're until the whole class we're essentially we're all on this bus together and we understand what we're we'd what this looks like and yeah okay that makes sense because that's that could be a burden for teachers but could no that makes perfect sense.

Speaker 3 25:00

Like you've introduced these concepts kids know it you've monitored it.

Speaker 4 25:04

And then you assess it somehow and you move on for mastery yeah yeah yeah so there's and then even even before you talk about the AI core competencies there's like uh you could there's um just uh understanding defining AI what is AI use AI applications a little bit of AI history knowing that it dates back to the nice and 50 like there's you can do traditional kind of reading and um and you know traditional schoolwork in in terms of that kind of stuff because that's you know just kind of factual you know based stuff like that. And then I guess one so that would be if if you essentially pass to whatever degree the teachers you know has that has that line if you pass your AI permit then the AI license was would be experiencing uh the AI modes um which is where I was talking about before of when when you have a task in front of you and you're about to use AI Okay the app books teacher yeah have these AI modes that are um uh idea mode learning mode evaluator mode tool mode and simulator mode and they pretty much span the whole as from what I've in my use case they cover pretty much any use that you go to AI with. And the goal would be for a student if in the end for if they're using AI for a kid to say because I had this task in front of me writing this thesis uh statement I used AI to learn about thesis statements more clearly um and I use this prompt and uh and this is the and and I guess the key thing is you turn in the conversation. Yeah you're allowing AI use in your classroom. Yes the conversation is being turned in and it is essentially so you're citing you're citing it like you would a an author. Yeah and the and the student is I guess their their their citation or bibliography is yes I use AI at this point I use it in it's even more extensive because connecting kind of like use and purpose is what I'm hearing you say Vince.

Speaker 8 27:06

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 6 27:06

Yeah that's then that's the stuff that I like I said I think our listeners would be interested in like what specifically does that look like so you're saying like I think of it like now it's the app again I I took my written test and now I'm behind the wheel and I'm driving. Right? So now I'm applying in a task I'm going through there and saying to what extent am I using this and I have to really it's my metacognitive because I have to prove my thinking of the thinking of the interaction with AI.

Speaker 4 27:35

And I yeah that and I guess to how to deliver that it's I think it has to come from the teacher saying I am setting up this space for you guys to write this thesis statement. You're allowed to use AI as either an evaluator to check your thesis statement or no not even your you you set up for one. Everyone's gonna write a thesis statement based off of you know how I taught you the thesis statement. In this moment you're gonna use AI I'm telling you you're gonna use it as an evaluator. Maybe the first time that you're doing it you're giving them the prompt um or maybe you're you're scaffolding the prompt or you're giving that you're giving them the space to explore it and then that first conversation is graded and maybe it's not graded as going into the gradebook but they should receive a rubric. And I and I have I kind of I have rubrics for these different modes of what types of questions are you asking um the how how are you verifying the information things like that nature and then you I I think you have to give each student an experience in using AI as an idea in idea mode. That's one activity where they're turning in that conversation. They're gonna use AI in a in a specific intentional way uh in a learning environment they're gonna turn in their conversation uh they're gonna use it as an evaluator they're gonna turn it into a conversation where they're gonna turn in that conversation. Right. Um when you're using it as a tool you're gonna get some sort of output so that might be that the kids are getting image generations because but then their conversation will show what they prompted to get that image.

Speaker 6 29:06

Yes. And um and that's where the that's where the looking at how the kids are thinking is evident. Right? The proof is it's gonna be right, right. Do this for me is very different than I need an image to illustrate imperialism with Uncle Sam in the night you know what I mean? Right? Like those are two different conversations and are evidence of whether I'm just saying do the work for me which again I think Vince going back to what your first conversation was is that educators tend to get turned off because it's doing tasks for kids, stripping them of that critical thinking which when you describe what they're doing for you that's critical thinking right?

Speaker 4 29:49

Yeah. And I and I think I think ever I think majority of people have short sighted the capabilities of AI and they've only been using it in tool mode to where AI is doing something for you. Like find the recipe ad in in the framework for you to be for you to be justifiably or appropriately using tool mode you have to be essentially the expert in your direction of of the giving the direction of setting up the parameters of guiding the AI to your point so and a lot of people so a lot of people end up using tool mode without being the expert in it. Like these kids are using tool mode write this essay for me but they're not yet the expert in writing this style or whatever they're doing. Right. So but there is room so yes that kid should not be using AI in tool mode but that kid very well might be able to use it in in tutor mode uh or evaluator mode. Maybe they have a a ground foundation of what they're that's a great distinction. Yes. That's a great Yes that's clear.

Speaker 3 30:52

Like I think everybody's mind jumps to the tool mode. When they hear AI, that's where your mind goes, right? If the grades are going to turn to mush, right? 'Cause and you're just giving the task away and you're not doing any of it.

Speaker 4 31:03

Yes. And and if you think about it if you send if you send a a someone who's never had experience into a shed with a bunch of tools versus a craftsman. Hundred percent they can use they can fully get the most out of those tools because they are the expert in those tools in or not even those tools in the direction of how they need to facilitate those tools.

Speaker 8 31:25

Yes.

Speaker 4 31:25

And yes that so that kid could still have that idea but they're not equipped yet to be getting it to offload or or to you know I I can't hammer this nail in with my hands but yes this hammer can do it for me. But that's a that's you have to earn that right to throw that hammer.

Speaker 6 31:42

And there's a skill to hammering. Like like literally like w when I think of holding it to what extent like where do you hold the hammer to hammer something done it wrong right so I love and that's a pattern. That's a pattern here's here's another one like the screwdriver thing right so that like using the wrong tool for what its intent and purpose was is another piece or another layer right so I want to hang up pictures on the wall I don't have a hammer so I use the back of a screwdriver handle. Okay I get the work done but it's not effective.

Speaker 4 32:16

You use the sled right jammer yeah yeah go ahead I guess that's a that's what people are getting they're calling it flock. They're getting these people who think they can use this tool in this way but if a handyman came in and saw you hitting that thing with the and granted there might be some times where that's appropriate but like if we're talking you know formality that's where I think we're getting that distinction. We can tell that this person was directing something that they didn't truly grasp.

Speaker 3 32:44

I love that analogy it's so true.

Speaker 6 32:46

Yeah yeah so this is a per perfect shift moment because I think this is what leads into kind of our final idea of like this generational divide not that there's in the middle I'm not trying to just be black and white there's a gray but the misconception and I can say this as a professional utilizing the source I I agree with you Vince like I I feel like I'm still doing work. I'm still using my mind as I utilize it as a tool to get the level of what I know I need to have and the expertise that I'm drawing on and my background information to check and say no no no you missed this kind of thing right but the the misconception is that there's kind of two things. Generationally Ed and I were talking about this about how you view AI and then also this m misunderstanding of like I'm not the expert. So I think what you were talking about kind of deals with that. So yeah the generation like both of our daughters Ed how old is your daughter? 30 30 okay my Francesca who I've had conversations with and we could do an episode with that generation um she's 25 like when she hears that I'm utilizing it is enraged. So if we go from the analogy of getting your license, this is road rage right we're talking about get your permit, get your license like what's interesting to me, I consider her generation and her younger brother the techie generation of always being on a device but old mom is using the device, right? The tool and it's very upsetting. It's upsetting because of environmental issues and what the logistics are of these centers and how they drain our resources. The other issue that is really is the stripping of the mind of like we're losing creativity. Mom I can put something into an app and get a song written instead of an artist writing it. And then you know what would you say Edison any other pushbacks that you get other than environmental kind of the law the human I mean I guess the human aspect anything that your daughter has said in regards to it definitely um because she's an HR so her big thing here is the loss of jobs and and AI report Okay that's the other one.

Speaker 3 35:08

That's for sure with her that that's a big one. And you know that's she's not alone with that theorem.

Speaker 6 35:15

So I guess Vince from your where you sit as an expert what are kind of your takes on that that um like how how do we come again balance? You've used the word balance. I love that Vince what are your thoughts on that and where do we go from here to to figure it out?

Speaker 4 35:32

Um I'd I'd like to continue stressing the the word balance um because I feel like we've gone uh black and white hot and cold very quickly and it seem it seems like people are trying to push for not having a balance um I get it I get both sides I get the middle I get the confusion of it um and I and I I think I just want to come back to like that you know you know uh twenty-five uh or thirty years old back when COVID hit um I r I think it kinda it does land back we were forced into this technology phase and those kids were passed through they were given technology as a as a ninth or a tenth grader to be given your own Chromebook in school that must have felt so cool and and interesting and a front line and being on the edge and then AI came and it was able some kids are g able to get all their work done and this scene feels awesome and then they get to the reality of of then you know in college you you start to hear oh you start the reality of okay it's the real world I'm gonna have to pay jobs. Oh wait, I know kids who graduated five years before me and they're struggling. And then it becomes a a and then your numbers come out and then there's there's pushback from you're hearing the environmental data and then you're you're stuck in this position where you kind of were riplashed where you were told technology is everything and then you know that you're the the AI tech person. So like should I be able to to completely take advantage and and be ahead of this or am I being sold because we've been sold the social media lie and look how I see my friends being you know drained of their energy and their perspective and it's I think it's this this whole whiplash that everyone's experiencing them specifically because they're having this pivotal moment of you know coming out of these these institutional bubbles and into the real world and um that is a stark reality that is being difficult and I feel and and they're yeah so I don't want kids to be completely awful. I don't want them to be I want them to be AI native but appropriately not forced into that space not feeling like that they are you know um have to or but they're with the technology like the data cent the d the if we stopped AI right now and we stopped advancing it we we already have the the infrastructure and everything to keep even what we have right now. Even if they banned Chat GPT we have open so like the the the data centers that we already have built that are already running and up and running they're not going away is what I hear you saying it's not going away. That it's not and and and I also I think there's a there's I I don't know we've we've already been running the past twenty years off of data centers. More than that. So I think there's this weird um that these things feel like they're brand new when our whole world since two that since nineteen ninety nine even before I mean that's just when the internet and everything's running through my life really but we've been in this so I I feel I kind of feel like I don't know um I like whiplash I like that word.

Speaker 6 38:44

I think that I think that honors and and like I said I want to be respectful of people's perspectives. You know I think it's it's really just w none of us are going to give answers to what we're asking or or not asking but discussing, right? Like none of us are going to propose answers. We're just raising questions that I think are cool conversations and necessary conversations um in regards to what the implications are but I love I love the way you talked about whiplash because now when you say that I think of my friend Chesk and when she talks about what she talks about and that that is and I think it's probably the pace the nature of technology the fact that you said it's been around a long time but if we look at the pace of change that that has incrementally that's the word exponentially like revved up. So again back to Ed we don't have the time to even deal with the policy of what happened today because we're still dealing with policy that happened 10 years ago right like so it's just you know it's just like it seems like everybody's trying to play catch up yeah yeah and we're not and and the way I find myself I I I I just said it was weird but I I've just been in my own bubble.

Speaker 4 39:56

My job for the last three years when this is at its height was my job was to explore this technology and to to to think about how it's integrating to a classroom and the reality is teachers and administrators and people running their regular lives do not have that time and space and capacity to be trying to I like I had the space to be in my own little office and say, oh yeah education is done tomorrow and we have to think of this whole new you know ecosphere. Not that I truly you know but I had this this space to kind of just like let myself kind of explore that imagine that right like imagine it's not that tomorrow. It's not gonna be I still think classrooms will still look very much the same. I I very I think they'll still can I think they'll still continue to look almost identical in the 1900s. You'll be I I think we'll still be doing the same core things. Um talking, reading watching things, listening to things um whether how much of that is AI I I don't think it's all going to be AI. We're we've already said there's not a school district in the world that is going to be I mean besides those those private you know schools that you hear about the alpha school in Texas or whatever. Right, right. Um so we we do have to we live in a system the education system is real and uh the structure is there, yeah.

Speaker 6 41:23

Yeah. No, I love it. So I mean you know again I think it's what I'm hearing you say the reality is we can't unplug what's coming up, right? But you know we can I think start to decide like how much of it to what extent does it look like in our minds and in our classroom and what that looks like. We control you know I love focusing on what it is we control. Um you know so again the parents that are kind of fighting for you know I want less screen time um students and like Francesca the generation that are like you know it's tripping me of my thinking and it's becoming you know or the whole idea of getting a permit it's like I feel like that's kind of the overall one of the big ideas I'm hearing is like we're gonna use the tool. Don't let the tool replace you or the power of a human being which is critical thinking.

Speaker 4 42:12

I mean is that i i would you wrap it up in that sense or anything it is it is and I uh I I have a a bit of an analogy that I've been developing um and uh so cats cats relationship with humans um they've been around longer than humans uh we still are coexisting together but we are a superior intelligence you could say to cats as a species because cats are smart and intelligent in their own ways but uh on a grand scale human intelligence is uh is matter um but there's three I'm gonna uh simplify cats into three different levels. There's the wild cat who uh is fearful of humans. Uh if they're near humans they might attack you, they might scratch you. Um we're fearful of them there's this kind of friction and tension between wildcats and humans. Uh and they there can be wild in relation to AI and humans, humans in AI, saying that AI is this a grander intelligence and there can be humans that are taking the role of I'm gonna be the wildcat and I don't understand you. I'm fearful of you and I might even attack you and and try and you know get my data taken down or whatever the case may be. Um then there's the on the other side of the spectrum there's a house cat who lives a fabulously comfy comfy life. They get their medicine given to them, they get their food delivered to them. It's perfect. They get driven to the veterinarian um they're playing with toys but the sad reality of that is is everything's artificial. There's mice that they're playing with are not real mice. The salmon in their food is not real salmon. Um the the play that they're playing with humans might not be the same play with kittens out in the wild. And I would say we do not want human experience in relation to AI being this totally superficial artificial thing. But I think there's this middle ground cat, which is the outside cat. The outside cat seemingly and I don't I'm under saying cat as you know as an expert, but they seemingly understand humans just enough to be like, oh, that's a house. Humans live there. If I maybe am hungry, I can maybe hang around that house and I I can get food. Oh, and there's those things trapped. I've seen those cages before and oh, I guess I got caught. Or oh my my cousin got caught. I'm not gonna go into the cage. And there so there is you know, there's there's dangers going to the close to that human house, but seemingly most of the time outside cats can get exact not exactly, but uniquely what they need out of this grander intelligence while still being able to retreat and having their cat agency, having their their freedom and their their natural selves. So I like to say as myself, I've chosen to be the outside cat to understand that I can have that cushy life. I I could and there might be situations where I need to do where I want to do that.

Speaker 8 44:58

It's really cold outside, right? It's really cold outside. AI, like, come on, help out.

Speaker 6 45:04

I love analogy. My daughters are digging it right now. They are both cat people. I'm a dog person. That is the greatest. It is so good. I love analogies. For those of you out there listening, know me. They know I love analogies. Vince, that is so I got goosebumps. Seriously. I it it it is so the analogy is so good. It it's so good. It's so good.

Speaker 4 45:36

I seem like I've done some some some research behind it to where like cats have they we ha they haven't been genetically altered since humans some some of it, we've read this and that, but cats are genetically pretty much almost the same. Like since we've evolved and become humans, they've still been able to stay themselves. And I think as AI evolves into what if you want to say it's this, you know, entity or whatever the case you want to call it, as it as it becomes more unknown or m what mysterious or whatever the case may be, we are still gonna be able to be human and still be able to have our agency and have emotions and in the face of this grand grander thing. Uh if we choose to. Um and there's gonna be times where we go to the woods and and throw out AI and and don't have our ChatGPT accounts on or whatever, and we're camping, and that's gonna still be fine and and beautiful and and and there for us.

Speaker 8 46:29

Yeah.

Speaker 4 46:30

Um so that's that's where I I I have been ending a lot of my my professional development with that what cat are you kind of question.

Speaker 6 46:38

Well, we're gonna end our podcast with that. We're still in that closure. I'll tell you that right now.

Speaker 8 46:46

Let us love it.

Speaker 6 46:47

That is so cool. Yeah, no, I like I say, I think um because here, when Ed said at the top of the podcast, we need to have you ongoing, you are our ongoing guest, because tomorrow there's eight things we could talk about tomorrow. Like that's it's it's rapid, right? It keeps on rocking and rolling. So, you know, for those of you listening out there, just kind of think about the topics. And again, the fact that there's really none of our episodes are about solving problems, they're raising questions and having people think and all that cool stuff. So if there's any ideas that you have, we'd love to hear them send them our way or questions. Yeah, because Vince is gonna be our guide. Like I said, I'd love to have you know, Ed's daughter, my daughter, um, to even just dive into that. And you know, um, I know at the onset um we were talking about some resources that are again, day by day, new resources are coming out. So we gotta have you back, Vince, please, to share some of those teacher-facing resources that again, if you can make my life better and better for kids, like giddy up. I want it, right? Right?

Speaker 4 47:51

Yeah. So this has been awesome, awesome conversation.

Speaker 3 47:55

Go have some warm milk after we conclude tonight.

Speaker 6 47:58

And some salmon. So thank you, Vince. Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 4 48:03

At least you got it under the bridge.

Speaker 6 48:05

That sounds awesome. Take it to the bridge.

Speaker 8 48:07

We got it. All right.

Speaker 6 48:09

Yeah, we thank you so much, Vince. We appreciate you. Take care and we'll talk to you soon. Listeners, thank you as always for being here. Take care and we'll talk to you later.

Speaker 2 48:17

That brings us to the end of today's episode of Jacked Up. I hope the ideas we explored gave you something meaningful to think about, something you can apply, and something that expands the way you see the world.

Speaker 6 48:29

If today's conversation helped you learn, grow, or understand a topic a little more deeply, make sure you follow and like. Share this episode with someone who's curious, someone who loves learning, or someone who could benefit from the insights that we covered.

Speaker 2 48:45

And if you'd like to support the work we're doing, leaving a review goes a long way in helping more listeners discover the podcast.

Speaker 6 48:52

Until next time, stay curious, stay engaged, and keep leveling up your mind. And most importantly, stay jacked out of signing off.

Speaker 7 49:04

Oh yeah. About education today.