[S2E13] Ali Payne: When HR and Finance Can't Agree, Employees Lose

HR professionals are being asked to do more with less — manage benefits they don't fully understand financially, align with a finance team that speaks a different language, and make high-stakes decisions for their organizations without the strategic support they need. Ali Payne has spent nearly two decades helping organizations close that gap.

As Senior Partner of People Solutions at The People Co., Ali works with mid-market organizations to build people strategies that actually align with business goals. In this episode, she joins Vincent Catalano for a candid conversation about what's really going wrong between HR, finance, and their brokers — and what better looks like.

They dig into why HR teams are chronically overworked and underappreciated, how communication gaps between HR and finance drive poor benefits decisions, and why the RFP has become a default move that too often serves the broker more than the client. Ali challenges the notion that shopping the market is a substitute for strategy — and makes the case that a real conversation with your broker is almost always the better first step.

The conversation also covers the generational shift reshaping today's workforce, how organizations are grappling with AI adoption driven more by fear than by strategy, and why broker compensation transparency is no longer optional if you want a relationship built on trust.

If you work in HR, manage a benefits team, or advise employers on their people strategy, this episode gives you a framework for having the conversations that actually move the needle.

About Ali Payne: Ali Payne is the Senior Partner of People Solutions at The People Co., where she leads transformational work helping organizations create workplaces where people thrive. An award-winning thought leader in employee experience and organizational wellbeing, Ali was named Employee Benefit Adviser's Wellness Adviser of the Year in 2018. She holds a leadership certificate from Harvard Business School and has nearly two decades of experience leading wellbeing and engagement strategy at some of the industry's most respected firms. Ali is also a global keynote speaker sought after for her insights on the future of work, workplace culture, and people-first leadership. https://www.thepeople-co.com/

About Vincent Catalano: Vincent Catalano brings over 23 years of employee benefits experience as an independent consultant and CEO of CLEAR Healthcare Solutions. As host of the CLEARly Beneficial Podcast, his position outside corporate constraints allows him to have frank conversations about healthcare and HR issues that others in the industry simply cannot.

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This episode is brought to you by HealthNEXT. HealthNEXT partners with employers to transform their employee health benefits through innovative, results-driven solutions that prioritize both cost savings and improved health outcomes.

Disclaimer: The information provided in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and should not be construed as legal, financial, or professional advice. Listeners should consult with qualified professionals regarding their specific situations.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to the Clearly Beneficial Podcast, the show where we rip off the band-aid and explore the future of healthcare, benefits, and the people driving innovation in the industry. This episode is brought to you by HealthNext, the company leading the way in helping employers build enduring cultures of health and well-being, reducing medical cost trends, and increasing organizational performance. To learn more how they can help you, visit healthnext.com.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

I'm super excited to have an old friend from a previous employer with me today, Ali Payne of the People Company. We reconnected on LinkedIn not long ago. And I thought she'd make a great guest because her bastion of experience is in the world of uh HR and wellness and uh all those things. And she started a company uh with some partners to uh be a value-added uh HR partner for companies in the you know 100 to 5,000 employee space. So welcome, Allie.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Thanks. It's great to be here. I'm good to reconnect.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

No, glad to have you. And so uh, you know, kind of let's let's let's get right into it. I mean, obviously you felt that there was a uh an opportunity in the HR market space for someone to add additional value than internal HR teams. So so how how did that genesis of you wanting to do this come about?

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Yeah, you know, I think part of the part of the the stuff that HR people do every day really is very, very broad. And I think they're spending so much time on certain things that other things don't necessarily either get taken care of or fall to the wayside. And then, you know, it's like they're always or constantly playing catch up with whatever their leaders are asking them to do. And so we said, why not be a resource to HR people at whatever point they need it, right? So they might really love doing all the compliance stuff. Great, you you do that, bring us in to do the, you know, the employee experience side of things or the day-to-day HR stuff. And so it's really just because we felt like HR people are being asked to do so much more than what they and it maybe it isn't necessarily they're asked to do more, there's just more to do. So, how do you make sure that they have the resources at the right time? And then how do you help them get a seat at the table? We also find that many times the HR teams don't have a seat at the table. And so, is there a way that we can coach them and help them figure out how do they get a seat at the table and what are they being asked from a data perspective, from a you know, strategy perspective, from a people perspective, from an experience perspective? How can we set them up for success to have a different conversation than the traditional HR space? And and sometimes we do that fractionally, sometimes we do that by project, sometimes we do it because they need a certain thing or they come to us for a certain reason. Um, and then we help them explore like what is it that they actually need.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Okay, so let's let's uh let's take a step back there and let's define the table. Who's at the table?

SPEAKER_02 3:07

So the table for us or the table for them?

SPEAKER_03 3:11

You tell me.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

I think you know the table for them kind of depends on the the role that they're in, right? And how the the leaders of the organization see that particular HR talent, if you will. And sometimes they, you know, they do have a seat at the table and they are talking about strategy, but so often the business strategy is so different than the people strategy. I mean, if you really think about this organizational strategy, we spend hours and hours talking about our business strategy and we spend zero time talking about our people strategy. And if you don't have a people strategy that can marry your business strategy, you're going to fail. And you might not fail fast, but at some point, those two things are gonna come to a head and you're gonna say, we don't have the right people to get us to where our business needs to go. And so taking that step back, I think that really helps organization. So when you talk about the table, it really is do you have the right people at your business strategy table? So are the people in the room that should be talking about your people and how you're gonna actually execute on, you know, whatever the goal is. And it doesn't matter what industry you're in, right? Like at the end of the day, your people are doing the work and AI can't solve that. You're you have to figure out how do you make sure you have the right people sitting at the table when you're making those business decisions and those people decisions, because they really do come together.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

No, they they absolutely do. And and that's a great, that's a great perspective. I I think that AHR is that function in an organization that is, I've always said it, overworked, underpaid, understaffed, um, least respected. I I mean, and and they're the ones that everyone, even even how they're portrayed in the media, it's like, oh, I got a call to HR. You know, it's it's like this this negative thing when strategically they probably play one of the most valuable uh parts of of what an organization can do to deliver what their mission is. And so, you know, you you've now been at this um in your company for how long? Uh just over a year. Just over a year. Wow. And so that's that's amazing. That and I imagine there's there's no shortage of work question mark.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

No, definitely not. And you know, it I think it's also just like identifying or or helping an organization figure out like where do they need support? And we've had organizations call us and say, we had a full-time HR person and it just didn't work out, and you know, we just need someone to help us, you know, on a day-to-day. Well, at some point in the probably first three months that we work with them, we're like, you actually do need a full-time HR person. You just weren't necessarily using them the way that you should have been using them. And so they're like, oh, like thanks for pointing that out. We we just didn't know how to engage with an HR person in the right way. And you know, maybe they didn't have the right person in the role, but they also didn't necessarily know how to engage that person in a way to help their organization move forward.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Wow, and this is uh 20, this is 2026, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:06

It sure is.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Well, it is true. I I would say the middle market um of organized middle market organizations struggle the most as a benefits consultant for many years. You know, I I saw that that group of that size employer struggled the most. Um, and um, you know, and HR was was was always part of part of the conversation. And I want to get to that part of this a little bit later in in our conversation. But you know, now that you you've been out doing this for a while and interacting with clients, um, we both know that you if you've seen one client, you've seen one client. You walk in the door, you have a conversation, you do a needs assessment, and and then you're there for six weeks or four, four to six weeks, and you're going, hmm, the scope of work was this, but they really need this, right? So so give me some um uh, you know, obviously the names are changed to protect the innocent, but I mean, yeah, maybe if you you're comfortable giving some examples of, you know, those those type of scenarios.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times we get called because they have a specific issue, right? Or they they know that we do HR consulting or they know we do employee experience consulting. And so they say, like, we need an engagement survey as an example. That's a that's one that happens all the time where they're like, we don't necessarily know if our people are engaged or we feel that they're not. And so we have to figure out, you know, how do we make sure our employees are engaged? And we get in there and we start to, you know, talk to people or start working on strategy, and we actually find out that it's actually not the engagement strategy they need. It's actually that they need a strategy in general. And so, you know, one we have one client that said we need an engagement strategy, and we said, okay, but let's take a step back and figure out like, do you have the right communication strategy in place? And do you have the right resources in place? And do you understand that your people need leadership development? And so it was like they just hadn't really thought about the employee value proposition in a way that was resonating with the employee. Like, I think you know, the HR team and the leadership team, like they had a strategy, but it didn't get to the point where it was actually communicated to the employees. And so the employees were like, we don't have the right resources. Well, they did, they just hadn't necessarily been communicated in a way that was something that an employee could understand. So it was, you know, HR jargon or or you know, things that they just were like really not understanding. The other thing that I think happens a lot is an organization will end up having really high turnover. And so they'll say, well, we have a turnover issue and we don't, you know, we think it's because you know, our we're not hiring the right people. And and we really, when we once we get in there and we find out it isn't necessarily your hiring, it's that you're you're showing up as something different than who you hired. So when you hire your people, what what you say on the outside has to match what's actually happening on the inside. And a lot of times there's a huge disconnect there where, you know, it says we do this, but actually these people are getting hired for that. And they're like, this isn't the experience that happened during my interview process. Like, what happened? Like, what happened from point A to point B? And so helping them redetermine like what does the employee experience really look like after they get hired? And what is the strategy around helping someone feel like they have a career path? A lot of organizations, it's shocking to me that if you ask a millennial or a Gen Z, you know, what's their number one? It's generally career development, right? Like they want to know where they're going. And, you know, employers, particularly older employers, will say, like, oh, the millennials, all they want to do is figure out how they get to CEO in the first year of their employment. And I actually don't think that's actually happening. I think that's what the people here. It's really just like, how are you gonna help me get better at whatever I'm doing? And some organizations are like, well, I don't want to train them because then they're just gonna leave. Well, that's a that's a that's a bigger issue, right? And so we uncover that a lot too, where they say, we don't want to train them because then you know, Johnny Appleseed down the street is going to, you know, pluck them from my organization. Okay, well, that's a different conversation than, you know, oh, these people are unengaged and you know not showing up.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

So I think that's a Yeah, that's that those are amazing observations. And and and how I mean, and you know, how do you solve for that? I mean, it's almost like we bring you to the house. Um, we're not gonna tell you how to use the the the appliances, and um, you know, we we expect you to to stay here, you know, and what with uh and and yes, to to your point about Gen Z's and millennials, sure, they want a career path. Um, and it really is on the onus of the employer to to give them that and and to deliver on the promise of that employment. Is that would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Yeah, I mean, I actually think it's twofold. I think it is the employeeers' responsibility to make sure that they feel like they they're getting opportunities, but it's also on the employee. And I see a lot of times the employee is not taking ownership over their own career development path. And the younger generations are even worse at that. But if you think about how we've raised these kids, if you will, like we have basically helped them through every step. And so they come out of college with having someone, everything from a you know, a guidance counselor at school to some sort of college coach to a career coach inside college, like everybody gets a trophy.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

And that is so that is really, really affecting how these leaders help these younger generations get through their day-to-day because they've been handheld. And again, like I have people all the time that you know, Gen Z or Gen X and baby boomers, and they get so upset with these younger employees. And I'm like, Do you have kids? Like, think about how you've raised your kids. Like that, that is that's what's really happening, is that they have been in this environment where we give them this everyone gets something, right? And that's just not how they show up at that's not how you show up at work. Like, not everyone gets the same raise, and not everyone gets the same opportunity. Like, you have to be a what I would call a go-getter. If you're if you're gonna be successful in an organization today, like no one is gonna hold your hand and pull you along. And I the other crazy thing, which I don't necessarily know, Benny, that we talked about this before, but there was a Forbes article last May that came out and it was talking about the number of parents that are showing up to job interviews.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

And oh my god, I didn't see that.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

It was crazy, it was a crazy article. And it was like the statistic was 43% of employers are saying that when they get interviews with young talent, like new, fresh out of college, that parents are showing up, whether it's an online, you know, a video interview or it's in in-person, their parents will come with, or it'll be like you and me sitting here, right? And then my mom is sitting over here in the corner, like whispering in my ear.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

It's mind-blowing to me. I mean, I hadn't heard that before. I mean, I remember a million years ago. Um, this is not 35 years ago, not 30 years ago when my son was playing T ball, and it would annoy me in the T ball, and then the dads would stand on the field behind the kid. You know, I'm like, wait a second, this is not what we should be doing here. You know, the kids let them let them fall on their own faces, you know. And and but it's so fascinating that we're now we're seeing this as generational trends. And we, I mean as me as a baby boomer, honestly, I don't want to believe it, right? You read it and you go, This can't be true, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Yeah, I know it's so true. Um, it was crazy that same week. I happened to be speaking in Marshalltown, Iowa. So, you know, kind of middle of nowhere, Iowa. I thought I read the article that morning, went to the went to do the the presentation for the group, and it was a group of 19 to 20 employers in Marshalltown, Iowa. And I was like, I'm gonna test this theory because the Forbes article was, you know, New York City and LA, and that was where those employers were from. And so I asked the audience of 19, I think it was 19 or 20 employers, I said, Have any of you had, you know, parents alongside when you do job interviews? And six hands went up. They had had even in Marshalltown, Iowa, I thought, in Iowa, that can't possibly happen, right? And so they said they were like, Oh yeah, and then they all told the story of what had happened. And it was everything from like somebody sitting on a Zoom call to someone actually showing up for the job interview. And so the other people in the the audience were saying, Well, what did you do? And she said, I had to tell the parent they had to go sit in the car. Like I wasn't gonna even let them sit in our waiting room, like they had to leave. So yeah, it's happening.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

That that's that's that's that, but it's it's you know, we look at you know, we look at organizations, I think, from a very analytical perspective. You from HR, me from benefits, and and we see the things that that need to get done in our minds because we come at it from a very practical perspective. Well, it's a little different for for people who generationally have had everything handed to them, all the things you just said, but also employers have to adapt for better or for worse. You you the the tree's only gonna bend so far, right? You know, and and and so you you if you're dealing with that, you you actually have to address it and have a strategy that makes sense in order for that to to go to go forward, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yep, yeah, for sure. You know, and thinking about that, you know, where where where will you bend and where won't you bend? And how do you make sure that your leaders, that's the other thing, is that our leaders are really not prepared for this type of conversation, right? Like they're just not, they're not ready. Like they're assuming they're hiring someone and that person can step in in day one and they're gonna train them for whatever they're doing, and then they're gonna go. And that's just not, that's not how the world is is working right now. And so, how do you help your leaders adapt to having, you know, these younger, the younger generation join you? And what are you gonna have to do to train a, you know, a Gen X, a Gen Z, a millennial? Like, how are you gonna have to train them differently? And I'm not saying that you have to throw everything up, but you still have to figure out how do you adapt. And then how do you adapt each personal personalization, right? Because if you think about our world, our world is personalized. Everything we do now is personalized. Thank you, AI. But that is something that we a lot of organizations have just not adapted to or even like been okay with because we have tried to hold on to what we've always done and what we've always known. And that that shift has really it, it is here, it is now. And if you're not willing to adapt quicker than maybe what you were before, like you are going to lose that talent just as fast as you get them because they're not gonna wait around.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

So that that begs another topic. And you and you said it a few seconds ago, you know, the rise of of AI. And and you know, I I look at it and and obviously the alg the algorithm on on Instagram and LinkedIn thinks I need to be taking AI courses because that's all I've been seeing in the last week, right? I mean, it's just like intense. I mean, every platform wants to teach me about AI, right? Um that's not to say I haven't used AI for for any number of tasks. I I had it build a slide deck for me yesterday. I mean, it does cool things. But you read in the news now. I mean, you know, you if you if you look at at the push-pull going on as organizations try to understand AI, I I think some of them would just be happier getting rid of employees and and turning everything, turning a whole bunch of routine workflows over to AI as much as possible because it it is pretty remarkable. I'm in a white-collar role, whether it's in an insurance, in in I'm an attorney, um, I mean, there are things I'm still going to need to do as a human. There's so much of the of the stuff that I did before that an AI can do for me. And and so that is an inflection point right now that we're at. And and what do you make of it?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yeah, I mean, I think if we can get organizations to understand how I AI can help their business, I think it can help their humans be more efficient. And so that's, I think a lot of this is you're seeing organizations, you know, cut employees that AI can take over. I don't necessarily know that had the business thought about how they were going to execute on some of the things that come at the same time, that efficiency. So, how do you help your teens get more efficient using AI? That that's really, I think, where we can continue using AI in a way that isn't necessarily going to just eliminate jobs. But you're right, there are some jobs that AI probably will swallow up, if you will. But it's it's really about that relationship. So it doesn't matter if you're, it doesn't, again, it doesn't matter what industry you're in, AI will affect every industry. I know I've talked to some of my healthcare friends and they're like, oh, AI is not gonna, you know, not gonna do anything to us. And I'm like, it will, at some point, it will affect you. You might not be feeling it today, but at some point it will definitely affect the business, even inside healthcare. Um, and I think if if organizations and employees, so again, when I talk about this ownership thing, like I need to own own my own growth and development just as much as my employer does. And if we can get that mindset to be like curious learners every single day, I think that AI will support and help most employees versus it being this like super negative and it's taking over the world. Like that seems to be.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Well, there's this notion that you know, the way I kind of see it is that you know, you the AI can can dish up information to you and and and do and automate workflows and and do any number of things. But but there is, you know, in every in every thing we do, there's the last mile, right? And and the last mile is that touch point where something has to get done from human to human. Okay. Not everything is automated. And um, you know, my wife's in the in the interior design industry, and we always joke that you know, the the plumbers, electricians, and and all the all the people that that actually do the installs, though those are AI proof jobs, you know. But at the same time, you know, I I've I've kind of had a talk a few weeks ago with a guy at at uh he used to work at another large insurance brokerage. And in the course of about 20 minutes, we sort of deconstructed the role of an insurance brokerage and recognize that AI can probably handle about 95% of the work. I mean, it's gonna get to the point where even the AI is gonna be able to go to Blue Cross Blue Shield of Illinois and get a quote for health insurance and all of a sudden and then do the analysis of which plan is the best value-oriented plan. I mean, I've tried this experiment where I type stuff in the chat GPT, giving it an employer scenario, and it spits out a strategy that I would have come up with and then some, you know. Right. So so so brokers need to be. I mean, I think the brokerage industry is is really gonna undergo the one industry, right? One that's near and dear to our hearts. Yeah. That you know we can I can see that that's gonna be an industry going through tremendous upheaval. And and maybe the timing is right because a lot of the OG brokers, me included, are no longer either brokering or they're not gonna train we should care, but no one's being paid to care. So we're just hiring these young people and throwing them to the wind and saying, slapping them on the butt and saying, Go get them, Tiger, you know. Right. And that that's that speaks to your thing about um you know, not you know, showing up and and it not being what you thought it would be, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Right, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think AI in general is a good thing. Um, and I I think if employees embrace it, and even employers embrace it, right? Like I I remember when ChatGPT first launched, and the employer I was at at the time was like, whoa, no one can use Chat GPT. Like, we cannot let our people use it because we don't know what it will do, right? And it was like like at the time, people all they were doing was helping them create writing an email, right? So it was like very, very elementary things that they were using it for, but it was such a the the old the Old people in the room and not not necessarily old, but just like hadn't necessarily been been exposed to Chat GPD at the time, were like freaking out because they were like, We don't know what this is gonna be, and we don't know what it'll do to us, and we don't know if it'll get in our computers and like mess up all our stuff and steal our stuff. And so it was, you know, it's just like all this fear. And I was like, Well, we got to be curious about it, right? Because if we don't figure it out, like the younger people coming in are not afraid to to to try and use it, right? And the organization actually cut off the chat, and this was just chat GPT. I mean, this was like the inception of it. They literally cut off all access to people. You had to fill out this form on what you were gonna use it for and how you were gonna use it for it to even be okay to be on your on your um your laptop. It was it was really crazy. And I think the organizations who are willing to figure out how do they use it in a way that's gonna support them, and and you the broker is a great example of you know, one that it you are going to have to rethink well your relationship with your your clients if if you're only relying on the work that you do, because the work that you're doing in spreadsheets and all that can be done by someone else. And it doesn't have to be done by a human, it can be done, you know, in absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

I mean, I I think especially the small to mid-size, the smart, small to mid-size brokers, if they're innovative and and and you know want want to adopt this technology, they could they could get very big very fast by being willing to not be overpriced in the marketplace. They they can they can have economies of scale. And there's so many things. I mean, I'm just too damn old to launch that company, right? Yeah. But um, I I can I can absolutely positively see it happening because you know, we both know all the I mean, I mean, Gallagher right now, and I'll throw them under the bus for a second, but I mean, they're now well over uh a 10 billion, maybe 15 billion dollar annual revenue company, you know, and and so with all these big acquisitions they've made, and and you know, they're hiring all these, they're bringing on all these people, but you know, the the leaning the the the the leaning will begin at some point in my mind. So let let's what one area I really wanted to talk to you about is as you see, you know, the conversation with with your clients and and and and the HR space and something that's certainly comfortable for me to talk about is that relationship of of that HR person with not with the broker necessarily, but with the notion of employee benefits. Right, yeah, yeah. I I I'm gonna put set up a premise here and and you I'd like to get your opinion on on what I'm saying here. And that is, you know, I I maintain for many years that that HR, and I'm just forgive me for saying these words, but HR really can't do math. Okay, you know, when when when and I validated this in front of CFOs, I'm like, well, so the broker comes in and and delivers the renewal to HR. You're not in the room with Mr. CFO, even though you should be. HR gets the get gets the gets the renewal, big spreadsheets, big binders, all the things. Broker does their dance. Uh HR remembers about 10% of what broker told them. Then they tell you, and then if the renewal was a you know a low renewal, everybody pops bottles and it's okay. If it's a 10% renewal, it's still okay because you at Mr. CFO wrongfully budgeted 10%. And um, and then if it's 15% or more, head's got to roll. And so I maintain to this day, and because I haven't seen it, I've not seen, especially in the mid-market, a good example of this yet, where an HR team and a CFO team or a finance team from the same company partner together to build a sustainable health strategy in concert with their broker. So tell me if you've seen that.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

I have not. And I, you know, I think it it kind of is they're never, it's like they're never at the same table together, right? It's like they're not necessarily thinking about it the same way. And so the CFO is thinking about it from a money perspective and the HR person is thinking about it from a people perspective. And it's like they cannot figure out how to come together.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

They're speaking past each other, I think, all the time.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Yeah, they are. And it's like, how do you how do you get them to really understand what both because you got to have both, right? It's not like you can do it one or the other. And I don't necessarily know that even the brokers are are helping that relationship being built, right? Because they're not necessarily giving the HR team enough of an understanding as to why the the finance people need to be in their room and and vice versa, right? And so it's it's kind of it's a it's a battle that I feel like you you know, you've been in this business longer than I have, but it's like a constant battle of do I really need to understand it or do I not. I actually have a city client, um, a a fairly large city, and they they do a better job of it, but I think it's because they have they don't have anyone in HR that's a benefit expert. So they kind of have to rely on the finance team to help them. And so that would be the only, that'd be the closest that I've seen it. But then the funny thing about that is their broker's not in the room, right? So the broker is not involved in those conversations, those are happening really in the culture work we're doing, and then it's like going back to the it's getting back to the broker, but not necessarily in the way it probably should be.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Yeah. Yeah. I feel it, it it's it's shame on everybody. I mean, you know, I mean, when I started in in the industry in in the early 2000s, when insurance, when I when a health premium for a single person was about 150 bucks, um, and a family was 450 bucks, you know, you know, a 10% increase on that was was nominal. Now you've added literally added a zero across the board, worth a thousand bucks for for a premium to insure someone. And finance is still not building the bridge with HR. And I don't blame HR for this, to be honest with you. I really blame and I pull up at least someone that shows what percentage of benefits has is is a percentage of payroll, how that's crept up over the years. And if companies are gonna really be mindful of cost, because a lot of the stuff, a lot of the stuff you're working on has a cost, but at the same time, it's not necessarily a hard cost as benefits are a hard cost. Right. Right? Benefits are one of the hardest costs that a company has to eat. Because if benefits get too expensive, people don't get raises, you know, products don't get developed, marketing doesn't get budget, you know, all those, all those things. So so where do you where do you see this this going?

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Where do I see the relationship?

SPEAKER_03 28:48

How can we improve what what can we say to the market? What can you say to the marketplace? What can you say to HR people, you know, that can improve that conversation?

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Yeah, I mean, I think just understanding really what you need, really what you need and what you don't need, I think that's the other thing, right? Where we're spending so much money in the benefit space that is, yes, is medical insurance coverage expensive? Yes, 100%. But you've got all this other stuff that in some cases is just noise, right? Like, you know, all these point solutions that are out there that people are buying, you know. I always say, like, please do not spend any more on any more stuff. Even though, like, you know, a salesperson called you and said, you need this and you need that, like, just stop, stop, stop and take a step back and really understand what you have today so that you can actually, you know, think about what do your people really need. And that's a lot of the times we get hired is at that point, right? Where they're like, I have all this stuff. And A, my people don't know about it because I've I've really not done a great job communicating it. And I haven't really thought about what my people really need. I just think about it through my own lens. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Like your HR people usually have a pretty good tap on what your people are asking for, what they need. But so many times we never go back and we say, okay, of all these things we offer, are people using it? Is it is it providing the value that it should be providing? You know, do my people know about it? You know, should I be rethinking the the you know, the the relationship that I have with the vendor? Or, you know, is it the vendor's fault that maybe it's not working? You got to ask yourself that too, where a lot of times I see employers, you know, spending money on vendors where their relationship is terrible and they're just going through the motions and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like it could be a lot easier if you just cut it off and stop doing it. And you might have two percent of your population even notice that that vendor's not around anymore, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:43

Absolutely. I mean, if you go back to what I like to jokingly call the original point solution, which is the EAP, right? I mean, before COVID, the EAP had maybe 2% utilization. So true. You know, and um a lot of a lot of employees didn't even know what it was or where it was. And and of course, that's something you touched on earlier. Is you know, it's the fault of organizations that poorly communicate with their employ or communicate poorly with their employees when they give them that 85-page you know PDF open enrollment and say, here you go. Not I've done my job, knock yourself out, buddy. And then we're oh, and then by the way, don't call anybody. We're not gonna do an open enrollment meeting. Don't call anybody because you just go to the portal and enroll yourself. Yes, you know, God help us all, you know. Um, and so you you just touched on something, you used that the V word, the vendor word. And we, you know, when before we we we turn the turn the cameras on here, we talked a little bit about that. And and kind of the last thing I want to kind of chat with you about is is this notion of of vendors and and and this process that organizations think, and whether it's looking to replace a broker or or evaluate him, you know, some people just jump through hoops for the sake of jumping through hoops, right? They're not assessing their own time involved in the evaluation, and then the five vendors they want to have involved in the evaluation. Have you felt that there's a what's the better strategy? What are the strategies that an organization gives their questioning a broker? Let's just pick on brokers for a second. So if they're questioning the relationship with their broker, what's the first thing they should do?

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Well, I would say have a pretty you know good sit-down with the broker to figure out like what exactly are they doing? I think so many times, you know, if the and I'm not sure why this happens. So I don't necessarily know if I'm answering your question, but I'm just gonna I'm just gonna say this because I think it needs to be said. So so many times the broker's value, the broker thinks their value lies within doing RFPs. So they're like, I'm gonna do an RFP for you for a new vendor for whatever point solution it is, right? So instead of again taking a step back and saying, what's actually working and what's not working and why is it not working before we go through the exercise of doing an RFP, right? And the RFP takes everyone so much time, right? It's not like an RFP is done overnight. And an RFP takes a lot of time. And a lot of times people answer the RFP or they even get the RFP and they don't even know who the client is, right? They're just like, yeah, we're gonna answer this RFP, and then they're like, oh, well, that was really a waste of my time, energy, and money because I don't have even a relationship. And so I think the the the broker who feels like they have to do an RFP every year, and I'm not just talking medical RFPs, I'm talking like any RFP, right? And I know there's a team for an organization we used to work for, and their entire well-being and engagement team, all they do is RFPs all day long. Yeah, I'm like, that cannot be fun. No one likes doing RFPs, answering them or reading them or analyzing them. And then at the end of the day, they get to doing all the analysis that took someone a hundred hours and they're like, yeah, we're just gonna stay with who we have today. Oh, great. So again, like thinking about that relationship and what's working today versus what you think you should have, like start with just a conversation. My goodness. Like, don't put everyone through the ringer just because you're you feel like you need to add more value.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

No, I I I absolutely agree with you. And and that, and that especially when when you know the the the HR team doesn't feel a broker's performing. I I agree with you 100%. Have that sit down. And if in that sit-down you do uncover the the three things that that they literally cannot deliver on, whether it's strategy, it's it's day-to-day service, or or frankly, they're charging too much. Um you should you should know, and and this is this is kind of a bugaboo as well. I mean, what percentage of HR people actually know what they're paying their brokers the work that they're doing?

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Good question. Because I would guess it's pretty low.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

It's always shocking to me. And and at least when we worked at at Gallagher, we did a compensation disclosure on the front of every annual you know renewal. Yeah. Even that didn't tell the full story of how much we got paid. It took every line of coverage and said the percentages we got paid. Um, I can't tell you how many, how many people, whether it's HR or CFOs, tell me as I'm talking to them potential client. Well, I don't even know what I pay my broker, and I just happen to have the 5,500 with me. And I'll go, well, here's your latest 5500, and it's$250,000 or whatever the number was. And and they're appalled by that. I'm like, you didn't know that? And in fact, I could be literally sitting across the table from the person whose signature is on the 5,500 and they didn't know what's in there.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Yeah. You know, well, and on top of that, so then you you peel back the onion, right? And you figure out, like, oh, well, they're not doing this, they're not doing this, they're not doing this. And they say, like, okay, well, now we need to hire a an outside consultant to fill in these gaps, right? And so the brokers are so ingrained in commission business that they don't even they they don't even want to do like project fee work because they make so much money on the commission stuff, they're like, we don't need to do project work. Well, at some point, I have a feeling they're probably going to have to figure out how do they incorporate some project-based work to actually close that value gap.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

Oh, I well, listen, I mean, uh, when I was doing what I was doing, you know, full time, I was um, I I would, especially my largest clients, I would net out all the commissions and come up with a monthly fee and and just call it that. You know, I I would take commissions on voluntary products, but I wouldn't take commissions on core lines of lines of coverage. And I would come up with a number that made sense for everybody. And and the smart brokers would do more of that. You know, I think when brokers start to to prospect new business, they look at a company and say, Oh, there look at the commissions in that. I want to go after that. But the truth is they should ignore that and really come up with a value prop that makes sense for the clients. Yeah. Um, I want to wrap this up. I want to thank you. Anything else you wanted to add or or say to this conversation?

SPEAKER_02 37:06

No, I mean, I really I love the conversation. I love this like, how do we do benefits and HR different? Like, that's our whole thing, right? Is we believe that there is going to be and has to be change in this industry. And and we believe helping your HR teams get smarter, faster, and fitter, that's kind of the the thing that we we just think is such an important element to helping organizations grow. Because again, your 50 employee group is gonna grow at some point, hopefully.

SPEAKER_03 37:36

Oh, for sure. Oh, my dog just showed up. He's gonna show up in the in the in the episode. Um, that's Murphy. Um, anyway, so good. My last question is is is nothing related to anything we talked about. Uh, are you a wine drinker?

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Uh yeah, I like to dabble in some wine once in a while.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

And so what's your favorite?

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Uh, probably a Barola from Italy.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

A Barolo. Oh, all right. You're a girl after my own heart. I love a good yeah. Is that your favorite type of wine?

SPEAKER_02 38:03

Yeah, you know, I'm a I'm not a I would I'm gonna consider myself not a good drinker in that I don't necessarily, I usually am like whatever you're ordering, I'll have too. I'm just not a um, I like red for sure. So uh one of my really good friends, she's a Barola gal. And so I've kind of that's what she always orders. So I'm like, I could do this.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

Well, well, she's breaking you in well because that's that's actually one of one of one of my favorites as well. So listen, that's uh that that's that's great. Well, Allie, thank you so much for being with us today. It was a it was a pleasure to to get your perspective and and all these things. And uh, you know, we'll um hopefully have you back and cover some additional topics uh as we go uh down the road.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

All right. Thanks so much, Vinny. I really appreciate you having me.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

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