Episode 17: The Ups and Downs of Trail Running: How to Move Efficiently on Every Hill

Climbing, descending, and hiking — it’s all part of trail running, but most runners don’t actually train how to do each one efficiently.

In this episode, I’m breaking down the mechanics and mindset of running uphill and downhill so you can move stronger, softer, and smarter on every kind of terrain. We’ll talk about:

• How to use your glutes, hamstrings, and calves for power without burning out
• What “going up easy” really means (and why it’s not about pace)
• How to handle downhill fear without over-braking or wrecking your quads
• When to shift from running to hiking — and why hiking is time under tension that builds strength

Whether you’re training for your first 50K or just want to stop dreading the climbs or descents, this episode will help you understand how to use the terrain instead of fighting it.

Links & Resources for This Episode

• Follow me on Instagram
• Visit my website: www.sunrisetrailscoaching.com
• Want to work together? Learn about 1:1 Coaching
• Free guide: What’s In My Pack? Download here

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey y'all, welcome back to Dirt Nap Diaries. I'm your host, Brittany Olson, Trailrunner, Women's Trailrunning Coach, Hype Woman, and Professional Overpacker of the Midrun Snacks. This show is for the everyday trailrunner, the ones training on real-life legs and real lifetime. You've got slack pinging, kids asking where their shoes are, laundry piles you could snowshoe through, a dog who's too cute to leave without some extra pets, and a cat who somehow saves their puke for your run window. You're not out here chasing podium spots, you're chasing finish lines, sunrises, and maybe a little sanity. This podcast is about trail running, but it's also about navigating life. The hard seasons, the joyful ones, and the ones where everything feels like too much. So let's get into it. So this episode right now is gonna be about uphill and downhill trail running. Um some people are good at one or the other, some people are good at both, some people suck at both. Um, but there are ways to do it um effectively, efficiently, uh, without injury and all of that stuff. Without injury also includes strength training, y'all. But we're just gonna talk about like technique, you know, why why you do certain things, how it works, and all of that. So um, you know, hopefully like as you are learning this uphill and you start, you'll stop thinking, like, I might actually die right here from going uphill. Or like when you're staring down a steep downhill, it's technical. You won't be like, ah shit, like I don't know about this. So um, but we're gonna we're gonna just talk about how uphill like builds you how you're building your lungs and your legs for that, and then how downhill really it teaches you a lot more about trust. Yes, there are physical things to do, but it's definitely more about trusting your body and your footfalls and all of that. So um we're gonna get into it. But first, uh personal update. What do I got for ya? Oh man, nothing huge. Uh last night I went to my annual my annual um album apps night. We pick an album um on vinyl typically to uh play at a friend's house. One side, not both sides, one side of it. And then we uh have appetizers. So uh my album, since you're all so interested, I decided to go with the first ever CD I bought, which I do have on vinyl, which is cake fashion nugget. Um, I don't know if that ages me or what it does, but uh that was the first CD I ever bought, and I was 11 years old, so that was 11-year-old Brittany having that on repeat. Um, and it was a Walmart edition when Walmart only sold um edited uh CDs. So there was all the explicit lyrics um were not on there. Some I could tell they smudged out, and then another couple I didn't know until I actually heard the unedited version. I was like, oh, that's the F-word. So anyway, fun fact about me. Um so not a huge personal update, just so just some fun we're having. Um it seems like around the holidays, all this stuff kind of picks up a bit. And I do love the holiday season today. As I was going on a walk, I actually saw a uh really tall skeleton that was up for Halloween, but the homeowner had uh put a uh Santa like coat on it, so it's pretty awesome. I took a picture of that off the face, post that. But yeah, so love this. It is like, I feel like I always say it's a busy time, but uh I do like, you know, seeing people put up their trees and seeing it at their houses or sharing it on social media and all that. Like it's just it's not about the presence for me, it's just for whatever reason, I really like the holiday season. So all right, but you didn't hopefully listen to this podcast just for my personal update. So let's get into uh uphill and downhill running, and we're gonna start with the uphill first. So I love climbing. I don't know if you guys know that. When I started trail running, like that is absolutely what what I loved. And, you know, I didn't know what the heck I was doing when I first started trail running and running uphill. Um on some of the, by the way, some of this will apply to roll road running with like how we use certain muscles to go up a hill. So, you know, hang with me if you're a roadrun. But we're also gonna talk about the technical aspects of like having rocks and like getting steeper, like in a weird angle, and then like getting a little bit flatter, but then going up again, because like trail running is different in those aspects. So, and we're using more stabilizing muscles in trail running than we do on the roads, too. So when you think about that climb, when you take it, think about that uphill, those ascents, like you're really driving um from the ground up. So, but what uphill butt running builds when you're when you're working that way is it builds your aerobic uh capacity, it builds your muscular endurance and power. But you also want to be able to like use your body correctly and efficiently. And it's not always about really how fast you're moving. Um, so the point of this is hey, let's talk about some form mechanics, what muscles you're using, like how your posture should look and all of that. Um, typically, if you're doing things not quite right or completely wrong, these techniques will help you get faster um and stronger. But I'm not gonna guarantee you that because I don't know how you're running right now, and I don't even know who's listening right now. But the goal here is so you will feel more comfortable um doing that uphill running. You will have, if you have pain now with it, less pain. You'll learn, like, okay, this is how I train when I'm running up a hill. And then we'll also talk a little bit about what it looks like um racing too, like when you have uphill, like how not to burn out too easy, especially if it's a much longer race, um, how to know when to push, how to know when to hike, um, what your body's feeling. So let's first talk about that form and those mechanics there. So, whenever you are running, and we're gonna start with the foot, by the way, when you strike your foot on the ground, you should hit it around that midfoot to forefoot, landing where you're landing directly underneath that center of mass. So, what do I mean by that? So if you are landing on your heels, you are not getting the power that you need. You will be using the wrong muscles in the wrong way. Couple the right muscles too, but it will not be used in the right way. You will not get the power that you need to go up the hill. And more than likely, if you're hitting heels too, you could be slightly backwards. Um, not actually backwards, but leaning a little bit back. Um, also, you don't want to be on your toes because if you are full on toe running, you are overloading those calves. And we do use our calves when we're running. Don't get me wrong. Like I've seen a lot of runners' calves, we're definitely using them. But when you're going uphill, if you are full on toe, you are only using those calves and you are not getting that power that you're gonna need. So when you're thinking about that foot strike, think about that mid to forefoot landing as as you're doing that. And then when you do that, you can start using the correct muscles as we go up the chain of your leg. So as you are striking with that midfoot to forefoot, you're going to push away from the ground. So picture yourself like just taking that foot, uh midfoot to forefoot, pushing it away from the ground by extending um the hip and knee and ankle together. So you're driving your legs and then you're lifting your legs. So remember how I mentioned trails, we're technical, we're rocky. We have to make sure our feet are also clearing those rocks that are sticking up too, which is something that's different than roadrun. We want to be able to clear the sidewalk, right? But with trail running, we want to clear those rocks. And it is very easy to toe tap rocks. Um, sometimes we trail runners have days where we toe tap like 20 of them, it feels like. And sometimes we hit one and we just freaking fall over, right? So when we think about that drive phase, right? So we're striking with our mid to forefoot, we're pushing away from the ground at that, and we're extending our hip, knee, and ankle together. So that's what we call a drive and then a lift. So drive then lift. You're probably gonna hear me say that a few times because I want to make sure we get that that like in your head, but you're going to drive off that foot and make sure you're lifting that knee. Okay. Um, that's gonna help you, like I said, clear, clear everything that you need to, okay? When you are lifting your knee, by the way, and we're gonna get into these muscles, you are using your quads, but you are not getting your power from your quads. So striking with the midfoot to the forefoot, we're gonna drive, we're gonna push the ground away. And then what muscles are we using while we're doing these things, right? So when we think about driving, when you think about pushing away from the ground, yes, you're pushing off with that midfoot to that forefoot. The goal here is to like not overstride, which is part of that form and mechanics piece of it. Um, you don't want to overstride, you don't want to take too small of steps. You want to be able to be in a spot where when you're driving with your foot, your primary muscles that are working are your glutes and your hamstrings. So your butt and the back of your legs. That's your glutes and your hamstrings. Those are the primary like movers for that. That's where you get your most power. And if you are striding correctly and you're hitting off that mid to forefoot, you're driving up, you're gonna be more efficient at running up pills. That's gonna that means like if you are using those right, those right primary movers, you are gonna get more speed and more power and more endurance to out there. Okay, so primary muscles right there, the primary strong movers. Then you've got your quads, which I already alluded to a little bit. Those quads, I I I talk about them as kind of like a stabilizer, um, but you are also losing using them to like lift your legs. So think think about whenever you're driving. And then I mentioned, like, hey, when you drive up, you have to like lift your foot up. That means you're using your knee and your quads. Well, you're using your quads to move your knee. Let me say that in the right order. So when you are lifting your knee, your quads are engaged to lift it up. You're not like it's not a power movement, it's literally just being able to lift that up. And then whenever you are dropping your feet back to the ground, right? You're in a you're in a constant state of motion, whether you're walking or running, by the way. Um, you need to use those quads to lower that leg down, right? And that way you're not just slamming on the ground. Normally we have, and I'll get to downhill. Normally we have more problems that going downhill where we can slam our feet down too hard, and that can lead to knee injuries. But you do have to make sure it's your quads are lifting your knee up above so you don't toe tap on rocks, and also so they're landing soft enough, so you're not going to cause um any damage there. Um, then you gotta think of your calves, right? They're like those elastic little springs. Like I said, those are not your primary muscles either. Like if you are running too much on your toes and you really feel it on your calves, like you do not have the right form there. Um, I see a lot of people as they get tired or as they get further up a hill and they want to keep running, they start to lean forward way too much and they start to get on those toes. And you are going to slow down so much faster and use so much more energy that you do not need to use when you do that because you are using tiny muscles trying to move yourself up a hill or up a mountain, whatever you're running up, right? So, but we do need those. Like when you are pushing off and going up, like your calves are engaged, and when you are landing, again, they are helping um stabilize that that that binary foot. Like that's kind of the first stabilization of the the foot. Like you've got your calves that hit, um, which then like leads into the Achilles and then your foot and ankle. Remember how I said don't get sciencey, we're not gonna name every single muscle, I will lose you. But that is really the point there is making sure, like as you're driving, yes, you get a little lift, but as you're landing too, you want to make sure you stay stable because as you all know, rocks move, things happen. If you can get that stability underneath um your foot with your calf, you're gonna have a lot better um drive after the fact. And if you do hit a rock that moves, you're gonna be able to stabilize that without rolling your ankle and hurting yourself. Um, another muscle too, like let's think about your core. And it's not really just one muscle when we talk about core, but I'm not getting into that right now. But it keeps that posture like upright so the energy moves forward. So you're not gonna be like straight up, you know, like shoulders back, like completely like a stick, like a straight up stick or anything like that. But you do want to make sure you're not like hunched over um forward or even like leaning back a little bit. You want that core to keep your posture upright. Um, and also like a lot of us when we're running, we have our packs on, um, our running packs. So our our shoulders and everything um can really start decay forward if we have a strong core. It can help. Um, so your shoulders don't hurt, so your back don't hurt, all of that. So keep that in mind. Your core does matter. Yes, and where does this all come from, y'all? Strength training. Uh today is not the day I go into strength training movements for this, but think about your primary strength movers where you get a lot of your power and your force and all of that are your glutes and your hamstrings, so your booty in the back of your leg. Your stabilizers, which are needed here, are your quads and your calves. So obviously, we still need those to be working, right? So strength training for that. And then core, you want to keep that core strong, keep it tight so we have that upright posture. So, speaking of posture, perfect segue. Um, you when you're running uphill, you should be slightly uh forward from the ankles, and your spine um should be neutral. So um you're not uh leaning forward at the hips, it's more at the ankles. And it's not like you're leaning like forward so like you're parallel with the ground, but when you're when you're slightly forward at the ankles, you are going to be able to use more power from your hamstring and your glutes to move forward and up at the same time. So keeping that spine neutral, that's gonna help everything flow well. It's also gonna help your back. Uh, and then you want to keep your gaze ahead. Uh, you don't want to be looking just straight down, you want to see what's coming. Um, I say for like uphill, 10 to 15 feet ahead, because you are moving slower typically than what you are downhill. Not all the time. I get there. Technical downhills, we'll get to that. But typically when you are moving up a hill, you are moving slower than what you will downhill. So I typically look about 10 to 15 feet ahead. Um, that way I can see what's coming. That way I know when to lift those quads over or higher over bigger rocks. That way I know whenever I might be getting to a section where my I have short legs, y'all. I'm short in general, where I might have to stop and hike just to be able to get the hip movement to get over top of those um bigger rocks. So as I mentioned hips here, um, we do have to make sure like our hips are engaged, that they're activated, because there are times when we are running uphill that we do have to take a big up step. Um, whether it's like if you've ever been in the Grand Canyon, they have some steps built in for erosion and and stuff like that. Um, those are actually pretty big steps for little legs, even for some long legs. So we want to make sure we have mo we all want to have strength in our hips and hip flexors, but we also need to have mobility there too. So just other things to do. Keep those hips mobile because those are used both uphill and downhill, but you really, really feel it on those uphills. Um, so stride here. I mentioned briefly earlier, um, you don't want them to be long. If you are taking long strides uphill, like you are over striding, you are losing all the power. You do not, you are not using your hamstrings and your glutes as needed. So you are going to uh tire much more easy easily, and you're also not going to be as strong on those uphills. So you're just gonna be out there longer, more than likely. You can burn out your legs by the time you like get to the top of that hill, and if you have a flat or a downhill, you've really blown through a lot of energy there. And the longer we run, the more important this becomes, right? So you can take the short, quick strides. I'm not saying take little baby ones. When I run uphill, my stride actually feels a bit more natural than when I do downhill. So like keep those legs moving, don't overstride, make it a more of a natural movement. They can be the short and quick ones, again, not baby steps, but short and quick. Or like it might and it should feel way more natural. Uphills typically for our legs feel more natural, even if they're harder, okay? So just pretend that you're taking time to taking some steps upstairs, even if you have to, right? Some people, they need that visual of like what they're doing. Um, so it could just be something like, hey, how do you take your steps upstairs? Um, but when you're doing it, you should be covering more ground like efficiently when your feet stay underneath you, right? So you're not seeing your toes way in front of you or anything. You should honestly not see your toes very often in this instance. So that's gonna help with that efficiency and that power, right? Um, and then when you're out there, just think about it like push from your butt, not your toes, right? Engage those glutes. If you aren't really feeling your glutes or aren't sure, you can literally squeeze those glutes whenever you're pushing uphill to feel that. Um, I don't know if I've mentioned this before. I know I've been told this, but I am quad dominant. There are actually times where I'm gonna I'm it's normally when I'm tired, but sometimes it's not even when I'm tired where my quads, because they are stronger, which I'm working on, by the way, y'all, um, they will start to take over um when I'm going up a hill instead of my my glutes and my hamstrings like doing the work they should. So those are times when I just will physically like make sure that I engage my booty. That way the right muscles are getting that work. Um, and you might not be quad dominant, but you just might not have the strength in your hamstrings and your glutes um yet. So it's something very much so, hey, you might have focus on keeping those engaged. Obviously, strength training, there are different things, you know, deadlifts, squats, uh Bulgarian split squats, all of these things that you can work on, but when you're out there, the cue really is like push from your butt and not your toes. Like it sounds simple, but I'm not trying to make you feel like it's simple. It is has to be intentional. So really your glutes are the big engine here, right? And your calves are those spark plugs. Alright now, how should it feel? I feel like I kind of mentioned this throughout too, but remember I talk from bullet point, so I want to make sure I don't miss anything at all. Um your glutes and hamstrings are doing the work, like I just mentioned. Your quads are keeping you steady, they're keeping you from toe-tapping, they're helping your f your feet hit the ground not too hard. Your calves are springy, but not screaming. Um and hint, if your calves start to burn early, you're too far forward. If you're too far forward, it means you're probably running on your toes. So when you're climbing, it should feel like you're turning up the resistance on a spin bike. If you've been on a spin bike or just a normal bike, right? Like as you turn up that resistance, um, you start to feel it. Like you do, you start to feel it more and more. Even if you're going up the same like grade, like you're still feeling it. But as that resistance, like as you feel that resistance, especially if you're on an easy run, you want that controlled burn. You don't want to go out all full throttled, throttled, right? So it should feel you should it should feel like in uh the resistance is increasing as you go up because that your muscles are working, but you know, keep it at a controlled pace. So um here are some practice drills. Yes, I'm gonna give you some drills to do. Um, there's a few different things you can do. Um, and just so you know, I'm gonna talk about strides. Strides should always be done on a slight uphill anyway. Um, but if you only have flat, because you know, that's well, this is just a, by the way, disclaimer. If you only have flat on the road, you can do flat. Try to avoid doing any strides downhill. Um, that's mainly because it is harder on your body. There is more impact and more impact to the knees and everything like that. So just keep it in mind when I talk about hill strides today. Uh uphill is always best. Um, so but really the first practice drill you can do are hill strides. Um, I have some of my athletes and I do them myself at the end of workouts. Um, you can do anywhere from like, I mean, five to ten, whatever it is you're working on. Um, and I and I do them for 30 seconds. So like uphill, whatever that grade happens to be, wherever you're at. Um mine typically tend to be at 5 to 10%, which is just where I I run. Um, and sometimes these hill uh strides are at an RPE. You remember that effort level out of seven? The effort level, all of it it goes from zero to ten. So but a seven, so you're pushing, you're feeling it. Mine go from seven to nine. So some of my workouts it's a seven. Sometimes it goes up to a nine. But the whole point is pushing a little bit harder uphill. So push, push uphill for 30 seconds, and then take some time to come back down so you can do it again and really focus on it. So I do 60 seconds in between. That way I have the time for everything to recover because what I'm working on is uphill. So that recovery for me isn't nearly as important. Like you want to, I mean, like I don't have to move during recovery, is what I'm saying. Like, if I need to get my breath down or get my muscles ready again, like you can do a recovery like walk or jog, you don't have to be as fast as what you were before you started the strides. So I'll repeat that. The hill strides, you know, you can do five to ten for 30 seconds, RPE seven to nine, depending on what you're you're working on, pushing up. So while you're pushing up, you want to focus on that you're on the mid to forefoot. You want to make sure you're um driving upwards from your foot, so you're using your glutes and your hamstrings. You want to make sure your quads are there to lift yourself up over rocks and that they land softer and your calves are definitely there for that. Um they're springy, they're helpful like to keep that spring in your foot, but they're also helpful too for stabilizing you when you're landing. So focus on that. We're doing those hill strides and then recover for 60 seconds and do them again. Um, there's also you can do sustained climbs. Um, typically for me, my sustained climbs are not during like a workout day where I'm pushing like the the hill strides or different kinds of intervals, but this can still you can still do intervals with this if you would like. But um when I'm on a sustained climb, when I mean sustained, it's normally at least five minutes, up to ten minutes. Sometimes it's longer depending on where I'm at. But what it is is like I do these sustained climbs and I typically will push them from RP to five to seven. Um, so it's a little bit like it's right at the edge of that easy run effort and goes up into that like endurance run effort a little bit, um, to get into the rhythm, to see how it feels, to like not push so hard where like I can't breathe, but also to get those legs moving in a certain rhythm. That way I can make sure I'm using the the right um muscles. So again, this is I mean, you can call it a drill if you'd like, but it's really something I typically will do during longer runs. If I'm on a sustained climb during a shorter run, too, like this can be done as well. But it is like making sure, like I just mentioned, you're hitting your feet in the right spot, you're lifting your knees, um, you're using your calves as needed, you're stabilizing all of those things. When you're doing these things, the big thing is intentionally thinking about what muscles are firing and at work. Again, if you have soreness in your calves too early or they're burning, something's wrong. Like whether you're on your normally you're leaning forward and you're on your toes. Maybe you're straight up and on your toes too, but typically you are on your toes when those start to burn. Um, if your quads are burning more than your hamstring and your glutes, something's going on there, right? Your quads are engaged, whether you're quad dominant or um you're just like, again, leaning too far forward or potentially leaning too far back, you want to make sure those um hamstrings and those glutes are engaged. Um, you can also do some power hike drills. Um, and these are ones where your grade, I mean, is steep. I'm talking, you know, 20% and above. Uh, you might not have those around you. We do here, uh, not in a lot of places that I go to on a regular basis. We got some high grades. Um, and those are what I call your hands on your quads. Um, so you if you're using poles, totally practice with those, by the way. This is not a podcast about poles, but like you can use poles if you need to. But for a power hike drill, what you would do is you can put your hands on your quads um when you're at a really steep grade and like push up through them, right? Because you are helping yourself move when you're actually pushing down on those quads. Like sometimes you think people are just tired, but it actually is helping. Um, but you what should be engaged still is your glutes and your hamstrings, and you shouldn't be so bent over that your like spine is all curved. Like you should still have a neutral spine. Um, so I don't use this often, but it is something that I practice because I notice that when I get tired and if I don't have my poles with me, um, that I will start to lean over on my quads and I will start to curve my spine instead of keeping neutral. And then what happens is my back starts to hurt and I'm not using the right muscles in my legs. So it is a great thing to practice, especially if you have a race that's coming up that has quite a bit of climbing. So um, now let's talk about like race use just a bit. Um, and I think for a lot of people, if you're a coach or if you've had some running experience, you know, like hike early on on big climbs to save that energy. Um, it doesn't mean like don't race it, but if you are looking at a race that has several climbs, you don't want to burn yourself out in the beginning. Like we run hard, we train hard, but like if like you're in a hundred-mile race and you're pushing those very beginning climbs right away, um you could be setting yourself up to blow up later. So push as you practice. Like if you have goals, you want to know how to push, but normally you want to hike earlier on those big climbs to save up energy for the later ones. Um make sure that like as you're like going up to the summit, some people like they can see it, like it's almost there. And what they do is they start to like push a little bit like harder to get to that very top spot. And what that automatic what that will do is it takes away from energy later again, right? You start put, you're like, oh man, I'm almost there, I can see it. But then you wear yourself up and it actually slows, slows you down. So make sure you have those short strides, the high cadence, the not like not out there gasping, and not that you're stopping and gasping too. So, you know, I haven't even brought this up yet, but some people will stop um completely and then start again. So as you are climbing and you stop, it takes more energy to get going again, right? You have to get your muscles going again, you have to get get moving. Um, so it is better. It is okay, by the way. I've mentioned hiking already. This is why we all love trail running typically, it's because we get to hike during it and it's fun, but you want to keep moving. You're losing you are using less energy to keep moving than stopping, trying to catch your breath and then go again. Like if you are gasping so hard you have to stop, you are pushing yourself too hard, probably. Um, you should be able to keep going. So um think about this too as you know, if I'm talking about a 10K race, you might push through it all, right? Like those are shorter distances. They can they are very hard in different ways, by the way. I'm not saying those distances aren't hard. They're different. So if you're in a 5 or 10k and you've got these goals, heck yeah. Like I don't want you to say, hey, don't push it. But when you're getting up there to that 50K, 50 mile, 100 mile, 200 mile races, um, you've really got to think about how you're using your energy and how to use it most efficiently and effectively when you're going uphill. So, all right. Hope we're good there. Um, downhill is the next one though. Holy cow. Wow, I talked a lot about uphill. Maybe I should have done two episodes here. This could be the longest one yet. We'll see. Um, so right, so most of the races I do, I don't know what's happening, but a lot of them tend to start uphill. It is what it is. They don't always, some can start downhill. But typically when you're done climbing, a lot of times you can hit hopefully a little bit of a downhill. Sometimes it goes flat. But either way, eventually you're gonna go down, right? Um, some people absolutely love the downhill. I have a couple athletes, a couple of friends who, I mean, they're great. They're so light on their feet. When I watch them run downhill, like it's just like, holy cow, you look like you're floating. Downhill is what I'm working on, if you couldn't tell from that comment. Like, I love watching other people run downhill because I'm like, oh my gosh, you're floating. It looks so good. Um, so these are things that I'm working on like currently to get better at those technical downhills and the steeper downhills, right? If you have a flat, not a flat, sorry, um, a pretty even trail and you're going downhill, you know, it's just a nice little downhill. Those aren't the ones that a lot of people have problems with. These are the ones that I'm talking about that are like super, super rocky, a little more steep, you know. You you got maybe you know a little scree, right? And your feet slip a little bit more. Um, but what a lot of runners, yes, we we might be using the wrong muscles or it might be something wrong, but a big part of downhill running is mental. Um, it really, really is because as adults, as kids, I don't know, I just run around freely. But now as an adult, I'm like, I could break my collarbones or lose my teeth or have to get stitches, like all of these things. So a lot of times we get nervous, and that's when we start like clenching our body or like slowing down, or we start to break while we're running, which is not good for us, by the way. Um, so what we want to think about with downhill is absorb, control, and flow. And we will break those down, but it's absorb, control, and flow. So why does it matter though? Well, it's because downhill running trains that eccentric control, that downward motion that we have. It's also that coordination. Um, but it also raises that impact on the stress on our body. So we want to make sure, hey, we've got good control on the way down as our feet are landing on the ground. We also want to be coordinated with that. We want to make sure our legs are stable as we go down because honestly, I would rather fall going uphill than downhill because you're gonna fall hard downhill. Um, but it also is more stress on the body as you're going downhill. So what you'll notice um through my tips and all of this today is I'm not gonna tell you to run faster downhill because that can do damage too. I'm gonna teach you to run uh lighter um and kind of make it look like you're floating, maybe. I don't know. I hope so. So, but it really is about having efficiency and also being confident. Um, because like I said, a lot of this is very, very mental. I know there's sometimes where I'm flowing down a hill and I feel okay, and all of a sudden my head's like, ah, I might fall. I might break, break my face. So um it really is a I'll teach you about all the muscles we're using and stuff, but it also is mental up there. So downloads can be scary. You look down, you see loose rock, you see steep grades, you s it's uneven footing. Um, and then our thoughts make us overbreak. So we we you know, when I said earlier in uphill running, you don't want to lean back. You don't want to lean back definitely for downhill running because you are just jamming your quads down, your hips down into your knees, and eventually you are gonna have some issues. So braking is not good. It makes you actually land heavier too, and that's what can lead to pain and injury. So the goal for this is for you to land softly and not timidly. All right, like uphill, we're gonna talk about form and mechanics here. Um, foot strike, it should be midfoot under the Hips. So again, like I mentioned earlier, we shouldn't be taking long strides, or we shouldn't be taking these teeny tiny baby steps either. Although baby steps and downhill are way better than long strides. Um, but we want to keep the midfoot under the hips. So I mentioned earlier how we like really shouldn't see our toes when we're running. I'm not saying you don't see them at all, but like this is a time where you shouldn't be seeing like your whole foot out there. You're probably overstriding. Um, if you are on your heels, that means you're probably leaning back and you're breaking a little bit, which is hard on your body. However, some people actually do lean forward a bit and they're more on that forefoot. Um, and that causes tension in the wrong places. So if you would ever even just walk downhill on your tippy toes a little bit, I know that's more toes and fore, but even like on forefoot or tippy toes, as you're walking down, you will start to feel that. Uh, I feel it especially in my shin, and most people will, but you will not feel it in the right, like where you're supposed to be working. So think about when like people are like brake tapping in front of you when they're going downhill and there's nobody in front of you and you get road rage, or is that just me? But like they're like tapping, tapping, um, and it's like, ah, like why are you doing this? Why aren't you just flowing? Like, it's because they might be on their heels and they're braking, right? And we don't want that to happen. So we also don't want you to slam on the brakes and skid. So we want to work on having that steady downhill where you aren't tapping those brakes because that can lead to more stress on the body. Posture is very similar to uphill. You want to lean slightly forward from your ankles. Um, lean into it like you trust it, right? Like you're leaning into a dance partner. I don't dance, I'm very vanilla, it's not good. But like lean into that hill. Like you are going down. You are gonna be, again, you don't want your spine all curved and everything, but you want to lean forward from the ankles and not the hips. So your steps should be short, quick, quiet. You are looking to be lighter on your feet. Um, that comes again, oh, from stabilizing, like I've mentioned with uphill, but you do need to work on stabilizing everything. So as you're bringing those feet down, your quads are working. And your quads are the dominant muscle here, by the way. We haven't got there yet. But like you also want to land um soft, right? And you use, you can use your calves for that too, um, because those are the stabilizing thing which connects to the Achilles and the feet and the ankle. So it's all connected, guys. There's so many movements you could do for this, but I'm trying not to get into that because this episode would be five hours long. Um, but think short, quick, quiet. We'll get into a couple drills um to work on that. So you want to keep your arms loose. This is something that um I learned from a YouTube video, and I cannot remember this woman's name. I watched it years ago, and I should have found it before this episode. I'll try to link in show notes if I can find it. Um, but when I first started trail running, I was like, man, this uphill technical stuff is hard. Like, why? Like, I can't get out of my head. And I could tell like my shoulders as I was going downhill, like I would get tense. Like, I mean, I my pack would be there. I was like, man, my arms are really tight, man. My neck is kind of feeling this. What's going on? And I was keeping like my my whole upper body was just tense. Um, so what you should do is be keeping your arms loose for balance. My really good downhill runners, the ones who love it, have fun, who don't have my same mental issues with downhill running, they'll they'll they'll like take out their arms like they're they're they're flying, you know, like they have a whole lot of fun with it, but their arms are also loose at the same time. So what I do intentionally, I don't always, I don't bring my arms out like I'm flying too often, but like I will drop my shoulders and then drop my hands to my side. And if you ever see me running downhill and it's technical, you will see me do that where my arms are not engaged at all. Like, you know, when we run with our elbows, you know, out and we're going. That's not what I'm doing downhill. I am completely loosening the upper part of my body, and that actually helps you keep balanced. So when you tense up, a lot of times you can get off balance on because of that. And again, your neck and your shoulders start to hurt, and then eventually your back might start to hurt if you're always tense. So drop the shoulders, drop the hands, like just drop those elbows and just let them like flop around. I'm sure sometimes when I'm running down, it might look a little weird because they're like, her? She's not engaged. So on top of actually keeping everything else loose, like my jaw is even loose, like everything from we'll say from my head to like the the tips of my fingers, like I am keeping all of that as loose as possible because that tenth, that when when you're in your tents like that, it really does take away from being an efficient downhill runner. Um, and you can lose your balance. So eyes. Where are our eyes looking? So remember uphill, 10 to 15 feet away. Um, I'm not saying some downhills, you might you might not do that, but like a lot of downhills look about 20 to 30 feet in front of you. Um it is important to see what's coming. And the reason I say it's more feet, and I alluded to it earlier, is you are moving faster downhill, much faster downhill in some instances, just depending. Faster does not mean you are running harder or heavier, because we don't want to do that, we want to run efficiently, but you probably are going faster. So you need to catch up with things faster. So you need to work or look further ahead. Um, and like sometimes it could be as simple as staring at a certain rock, cactus, tree, plant, um, and seeing that that's 30 feet away and then going to another 30 feet and doing that. Um, there is a drill you can do with flags. I will mention it. Um, it is not one I can ever see. I've never done it. I've watched it done, but basically it's placing flags every 20 to 30 feet um in front of you, and then you like pay attention and you run towards them um because it helps you keep your eyes up because you have that flag there. I don't have time to put up flags on a trail and then go back and pick them up, to be real. I mean, I I don't know. So, but it is a drill you can do for that. So I mentioned that here because it's not one that I do personally. Um, I learned about in my certification, like if you have time to put flags on a trail and pick them up every 20 to 30 feet, it can help you make sure you're keeping those eyes ahead. But the goal is to keep your eyes ahead so you can see what the heck's coming, so you can plan how your feet need to fall. Because you might have to shift side to side. Um, you may need to take a little bit uh shorter of a step in a certain area, or even a little bit of a longer step. Yes, our goal is the short, quick, quiet steps, but sometimes terrain dictates how our legs are going to move. Y'all, there is no perfect running form, also I just I'll just caveat that there. Um, yes, there are certain things we can do to be more efficient and effective, like we're talking about now, but there is no just perfect running form out there, especially on the trails because of the varying terrain, ascents, descents, all those things. All right, muscle use. Yeah, I already mentioned those quads. Those quads are the main um part of this, which I love. You'd think I'd love downhill running more, but I don't because I still gotta learn how to loosen up a little bit. But the quads really control that eccentric movement. So when I say eccentric, it's that downward movement. Um, so whenever I'm going down, I want to make sure my quads have enough control that when I hit the ground, I am not just like slamming my feet down. Because if I am slamming that down, there's an impact, a huge impact. Typically, what it does is like your quads are your quads are taking the impact, by the way. And then that's when you can get knee pain and knee injury. There's other things going on there too. Like when you hit ground, like your hips are feeling it too. So your hips could be sore and tight for a few days afterwards if you're doing a lot of downhills. Um, but like your quads are there and they have to be strong to help you um land. So that e-centric control, that landing control right there. Um, you also do use your glutes in this one. So that booty, right? It it helps keep that pelvis stable. So how we were talking about like the hips are involved and all that. We want to make sure that you are stable there too, and your glutes are a part of that. Um, and your hamstring, still a part of that. You're not pushing upwards, which is where the glutes and the hams um come into uh effect whenever you're running uphill, but you are still needing those to help you whenever with the stability of going downhill. Um, calves are there again. It's that it's it's absorbing the shock. Um, so your quads should be controlling all that movement downward. Your glutes, your hamstrings should be helping with different stability, and then those calves are that shock absorption. So again, they should be engaged, but you should not have like burning sensations in them or anything like that. Um, if you are landing too hard and you're not like your quads aren't working right or your calves aren't absorbing that shock, um, it's a time where your shins could really start hurting too. So it either means your calves are weak, um, they aren't mobile, or both. Um, or you're just not engaging them as you need to. A lot of times when you aren't engaging the right muscles, a lot of times they are weak and not as mobile as they should be. So strength and mobility, y'all. And again, core. Um, we need our core for everything um out there. So, like it is like it's the, but it it this actually, I feel like you use it more um when you're running downhill because you have so much more stability that you need to do on the downhill. I've mentioned this, you're moving quicker. Um, it's a different motion than going uphill. Obviously, uphill versus downhill, duh. But as you're going down, you do need more control. So having that strong core is gonna help you control that that downhill movement so you're not just slamming your feet down. Um, again, it's also gonna help you like as you're carrying your pack, the longer the distance, though you need a stronger core, or your back and shoulders are gonna start hurting too. So, um, so what do you should you think about like when you're actually doing all these things? Like, oh my gosh, what's working? What muscles are working? Ow, do I have to think about all these things? In the beginning, I hope you do. I do hope you think about like the intentionality of like what it takes to run efficiently and effectively downhill. But so what you can think about when you're doing it is like soften the landing. Like, just soften it. Like, think about how do I run lighter? And this can take some time. And it might not just be running that does it, like you may be neglecting your strength training in certain areas. So doing that strength training and also mobility is gonna help. But the goal is to land softer. Also flow with it, don't fight it. So when I say don't fight it, don't do that breaking like I talked about. Like whenever you start to lean back and everything's just slamming onto your quads, it's just like boom, boom, boom, and it's going into um your knees. Like that's gonna cause a lot of issues. So you want to flow, you don't want to fight it. Um, and just as something, if you find yourself, if you are struggling with this, granted, we're gonna get into drills, but if like you're on a run and you find yourself constantly trying to break or just doing something that is causing either some kind of pain or some discomfort that shouldn't be there, hike, hike downhill. That is way better than causing injury. And then you can work on the drills that I'm about to talk about too. But like if you find yourself breaking super hard, going through all of this, feeling pain in a weird spot, feeling discomfort, something just isn't right. It is better for you to hike down that hill than to continue on. Doesn't mean you shouldn't practice it, but after a while, sometimes you just gotta realize, hey, today is a day where I need to hike the downhill because some things aren't feeling right. So, so how should it feel? Before we get to the drills, how should it feel? Quad should be engaged, but they shouldn't feel fried. Um, I think you know what I mean by that, but you shouldn't be like, oh my god, they're burning so bad, I can't do another downhill. They should be engaged, but not fried. The calf should feel feel cushion-y, and your breath should be steady. So, normally downhill is our chance to catch our breath if they're doing an uphill too. Like, or even a flat, right? But when you're going down, you do want to make sure you're breathing well that it's steady. Because it is a time, yes, where you can gain some time in a race. I've done it before too, but you are not nearly as breathy as when you're going uphill. I mean, downhill is definitely easier on the lungs and the heart and all of that. However, it can be have more of an impact to like the quads and all of in the hips because you are going downhill. Um, so run soft again. Um, if your quads are burning, like I've mentioned, it means you're breaking. Um, and you should it's you shouldn't be doing that. Um, I do it sometimes too, which is when you relax, you just kind of chill out for a sec, and then if you still are struggling with that and you still are breaking, go ahead and hike it down. There's nothing wrong with that. Going downhill again is normally more mental, but as soon as as you learn more about the physical pieces of it, you start practicing it more, hopefully that mental confidence will come around. So, what can you do? I already mentioned the flag drill. I'm not mentioning again, but there's the flag drill. If you want to look it up, you can I'm pretty sure you can just YouTube uh downhill running flags and it'll come up. So, um, but you can work on this on really any uh descent that you have. Um, I typically go to um like the technical ones, because again, if it's a smooth trail and it's a nice little like downhill grade, I'm good. Like I'm flowing. It's those technical ones that really get in my head and a lot of people's head too. So you can work on like short descents. So even if you have a longer hill, like you you can still like do these in short intervals, just so you can really focus for 60 seconds on what the hell you're doing. So the for short descents, what you can do is you can do this, I would say like four to six times, uh, maybe a little bit more. And you can do this during any kind of run. This is not meant to be like a hard workout. So like if you're in a long run and want to you're on a hill that you want to practice on, like do it then. There is no like, hey, this is a super hard workout, let's make sure we're doing it like right here. Um, but so like four to six um reps probably. Um, for one minute, focus on quiet feet. So those should be those shorter strides, um, lighter feet, making sure your quads are having that control and that your calves are absorbing that shock. So having those um quicker, shorter steps running quieter. So you do that four to six times for 60 seconds, really intentionally focused on keeping those feet as quiet as possible. If you run with music, that's fine, but either turn it off, turn it down, have one AirPod in or out, whatever it is, so you can actually hear it. Um, because you can hear a big difference between heavy feet and those quiet feet. So pretty simple one to do. You can do it whenever you want. Um, and again, did I say fast feet? No, you might have like quick little steps, like quick, literally quick and little steps, but you're focusing on the quietness of your feet, not the speediness of it. Um you can also do flow runs. Um, typically, I I these can be technical, by the way. I'm in Phoenix. We have so many technical trails, y'all. And with the rain we've had the past month, it's it's gotten kind of maybe past two months, but we've got a lot, we've got a lot more technical now. But flow runs are where it's more of a uh gentle descent, more of a gentle effort. Um, so it's probably not really a steep grade, but it is somewhere where you can work on the technical pieces. Um, and you just go, you just flow as long. Sometimes that hill might be five minutes, sometimes it might be 10 minutes. That's why a lot of times you hear me give ranges, by the way. We don't all have hills by us that go like a certain amount of time or is are a certain distance or anything. So you can do a flow run where it's a gentle descent for 10 to 15 minutes, or it might be um a run where there's just like rolling hills, right? But the whole point is is to make sure that you're doing things softly and quietly and you're flowing. So again, it won't be as steep, but it will have those technical aspects. So you still have to work on the control of the quads, making sure your glutes, your hamstrings are keeping things stable, right? Your calves are absorbing the shock, and then your core is helping you have that control too, right? And again, keeping those, like I mentioned earlier, those arms loose, drop the shoulders, drop the elbows, drop the hands, everything. You know, when I think I always say, hey, you know, like loosen your shoulders, like if you're running. Well, listen, this it's true, like it helps out so much to loosen that up. Um, then we can also talk about like strength just a little bit, because I can't help it, but like you can do like step downs from a box. Like those are something um you can do. If you don't have a box, do it from a chair. Stable chair, by the way, don't let that chair flip. But if you have something that has like a stable base, you can step, do step-downs. Do them slowly. Um, if you like just because that will, like, as you are going down, you're gonna feel that you have to control that and then push back up. Uh, you can do some front squats, those are cool. Bulgarian split squats, uh, Nordic curls, um, things that are definitely working on those quads. So that is like the strength aspect of it. Again, just like uphill, we want to make sure our hips are staying loose, mobile, strong, all of that. But those are just a couple of like little strength moves. I don't say little strength, but strength movements you can start doing to help out because we do have to have strong and agile muscles when we're trail running, especially. Um also, uh, I like to do something, I don't even know if I have a name for it, but something just to build your confidence. Um, and it could be just repeating one tricky section until it feels smoother. Um, so again, you can do this anytime when you're running. It doesn't have to be like, oh, I'm doing a workout today. It could be like on the long run, it could be on a shorter run. Um, if you have a coach, I would let them know, hey, I want to work on downhill running. My coach knows I want to work on downhill running. I have athletes who tell me what they want to work on. If it's downhill, we work on it, right? Um, but picking a tricky section and really just focusing on it. Maybe you go down it three or four times in the same run until it starts to feel smooth. The goal is to have it feel smoother, right? So when you do things repetitively, like it does start to get smoother and better, right? If we didn't practice anything at all, um, well, we wouldn't have professional athletes, but we wouldn't get better anything, right? When we start doing something, there's always discomfort, right? Some level of discomfort, whatever it is, but repeating it over and over is how you get better, right? If any of you played sports um of any kind, like you had to do things on repeat. There were drills, ground balls and softball just hit right at you, you know, working on pop flies that are over your head. Um, basketball drills of like doing layup after layup or free throw after free throw. This can be treated in the same way. Like doing something that's tricky or harder until it feels smoother. Um, it actually helps train your nervous system too. So it's not just the physical piece, it's that nervous system too. So it helps you like stay calmer and think about it. So all of that, so loose arms, strong quads that can control things, you know. We want glutes and hamstrings that are stable, mobile, all that good stuff. And we want our calves to really absorb that shock. So, in conclusion, uh, do your strength training and also do these practice things too, right? So, um, but how are we using like how does this work in a race, right? Because that's we can practice all we want, but how does it look to actually be in a race racing it? So I'm gonna mention this just right up front. Relax everything. I've mentioned the shoulders, relax that face and jaw as you're doing it because if you start to get tense and you are doing a long distance race, you're gonna hurt so much worse. Um, it's not just gonna be your legs that are bothering, I mean your shoulders are gonna hurt. You're also gonna be a little off balance. So um make sure like you're taking smaller steps and you get into a rhythm. Like you want to run efficiently and trail running, especially. So if you are looking ahead as you're going downhill and you see in the, and I know we have single track and everything, but if you see where you could take a step that doesn't make you have to like actually lift your leg up as high, you can actually get step to the right and have a smaller step. For me, that's more efficient because my legs are so short. So I'm gonna pick the path of least resistance when it comes to that. You may be a person who's super tall and running straight forward towards where that's a little bit higher is actually better for you because it's not really a big step for you, it's not a big step up. So it does look different for each person depending on like how tall you are, really. Um and then also it's gonna be the same for uh like uphill. Like you don't want to burn yourself out super early in a race, right? If you have like trained for these races and you have a race plan going in, like, which is always good, guys, by the way, to have a strategy as you're going in to know how much effort you're gonna put in the beginning, the middle and the end, and when you hit hills and downhills, but make sure you know what effort you're putting in the beginning and normal or beginning, middle, and end, because the beginning it probably is a little bit less because you want enough um in the tank so you can really perform and push closer to the end. Um, also let gravity be your guide. That's not just for race use, that's really for all of it. Like, just don't fight it. Like, let gravity help you go down because as you loosen your shoulders, gravity will help you go down. The big thing I'm gonna caution you of as you're letting those legs flow, as you're loosening those shoulders, you do have to make sure you lift your feet up high enough. Um, if you do not, you will trip tip a rock and you will fall. Um, and you know what? I have fallen run downhill twice. Luckily, they were in pretty like simple spots, and I just got a little bit of like what looked like trail rash. Um, but some I've had an athlete fall and like she had to go get 11 stitches and had not run for a couple weeks. So keep those. I'm not saying that's scary, I'm saying that to be real, by the way. So keep those legs. Um, keep those legs up by pulling up with your calves to keep them up so your knees come up and then you're not tripping on rocks. So all right. I hope you are sticking with me here. I've got a couple more things. Um, a lot of people struggle, especially in races, um, but like when to shift to that hike. Um, this is gonna be a pretty short section. I'm not gonna give you a shit ton of stuff here. But we do want to practice hiking when we're out there training for things. Um so totally normal to hike, first of all. So, what we want to do though is use hiking as a strategy. Um, the best of trail runners know when to switch gears. Yeah. I mean, we have elites out here who'd hit amazing times in records, and guess what? They're still power hiking at times. I'm not saying every single race they're power hiking, but the longer the distance, typically we've got some stuff that we've got to hike up. So it's one of the best forms of strength endurance you can build on the trail because it's time under tension. You may hear that with if you're if you lift weights too, like time under tensions. Your muscle stays engaged longer without the pounding of running. Okay, that's what that's doing when you're running. So if you're if you're lifting weights, if you're a weightlifter and you're listening to this, like it's like whenever you pause, say, on a squat. So like if you're like are going down on your squat, move it um and you decide to hold it, that's an isometric hold. Um, that is a time under tension, however long you hold us. So you say you do a three-second hold, right? But so think about that in terms of hiking too. So you just have more time under tension because your legs aren't moving as fast as what you're doing when you're running. Uh, power hiking keeps the glutes, the hamstrings, quads under a constant load, which builds muscular endurance, capillary density, and fatigue resistance. So, all of that is saying it's gonna help you run faster, further, and for longer, and feel better for longer, too. So less fatigue. Um, you're teaching your body to keep producing force over time. So that means you're gonna have stronger climbs, steadier legs, and a better running economy too. Um, hiking economy too, obviously, because we're talking about hiking, but it's really gonna help your running economy as well. Um, so hiking doesn't make you bless. It is literally part of it, right? It helps like build that strength in your legs. Not like weightlifting, but it does help. So, what you gotta do is for training runs, if you have an easy run, remember, you're supposed to be able to talk that entire time. So as you're going up and all of a sudden you cannot hold a conversation, you need to start hiking. That's it. Period, right? Like your your form's gonna be be the same. Um, and granted, this is uphill, by the way, because normally uphill you're you're running out. You're that's where you're running out of breath, by the way. Downhill, you're not typically running out of breath. That's where you you're like just getting in your head about things. And I don't say just, that sounded condescending. Uh, you are getting in your head about things on the downhill, and I do that too. But for uphill, when you're in that RPE range and you go above it, start hiking. I always say, hey, try not to go above, but sometimes when we're running uphill, we're like, oh shit, I'm gasping. Hold on. Ah. So start hiking and focus on not hiking and slowing down, but like hiking with the purpose, with power. Um, really thinking about like how you're moving. So you're still leaning slightly forward at the ankles, you're still engaging your glutes and your hamstrings and all of that. Um, you are just moving at a slower pace, which means you have more time under tension, which is building those legs up, which is gonna be helpful for race day because it helps you with efficiency and energy conservation, like I've mentioned earlier. So it is okay to hike. It is good for you to hike. Um, if you need to, like if you have poles, great. Um, those are super, super helpful. Um, you'll see people with their hands on their quads for leverage. That's helpful too. Um, make sure you're still having short, deliberate steps. You're still not making these huge long strides or anything like that. You want a steady cadence as you're hiking. Um, you're gonna lean slightly deeper than in training, more than likely, when you're racing too. So when you're when you're hiking and when you're racing. So you're leaning into it more because you you are racing, like you are putting your best self out there. So you're pushing. And again, I'm gonna mention this, keep moving. No pauses. Don't pause. And I don't mean don't pause to like eat. If you need to eat and you have to pause to eat that, but I mean if you get to the top of this hill and it's like it's a downhill, just go. I mean, keep those legs flying, keep those muscles moving, like just do it. All right, so um, and then when you can, like transition back to the run if you can. Like, maybe it's a little bit of a shuffle depending on where you're at, but it is like when it flattens out, um, when it goes downhill, start start running again when you can. It doesn't mean, but the whole point that I want to make is really keep moving forward. That's it. Keep moving forward, and when you can run again, start running, right? So, um, remember that like hiking, hiking keeps you your aerobic system working, it keeps you efficient, and it keeps you economical. Like running every climb can burn you out much, much faster. Um, yes, again, maybe a shorter distance, you you do power through the climbs, but as these distances grow, you do need to be able to, first of all, learn how to hike, but also be okay with hiking. Some people get really in their heads about having to hike. So, and about the only thing for like the downhill portion of that is what I mentioned earlier. If you find yourself breaking too much, um, if you are feeling a huge impact on your hips, your quads, your knees, you you need to hike down that. You do not want to do um damage to that, because then that can take you out of running for a bit, but then go back to working on drills to be a better downhill runner. So um just think about this too. Like when you're starting out working on these things, um, because I'm again, I mean, uphill there's mental. I'm not saying there's no mental with that, but really it's more downhill. But start on smaller grades. So when you think about an incline, like start at just less of an incline when you do it. Um, and then build into higher grades. Start with less technical and get to more technical. Um, so focus on breathing when you're anxious. Um, and remember to look ahead and not at your feet. Like these are all things that can really help you like gain that confidence. Um and then also like on top of looking ahead, like practice that where I said staying relaxed, like dropping the shoulders. When I'm going uphill, I'm not dropping my shoulders, by the way. I did not mention that earlier. But like when you're going downhill, especially, like drop the shoulders, get relaxed. We need that to help. And then repeat, right? Repeat these things. And then, like, so the smaller grade, then you go to a mid-grade, then you go to a bigger grade, whether it's uphill or downhill. Um, but especially downhill, like gradually get into these things because you are taking little pieces. We always add on to things, right? If any of you, again, I keep going back to athletes because I was an athlete for so long. You don't start with just like somebody pitching a softball at you 65, 70 miles per hour. Like you have you're hitting off a T. Like even through high school and college, we did like practice off of a T, right? So you're working on the things that will build you up to the actual, say, game day, that race day, right? So these drills like are important to what we do, and they can be included in your normal runs. So all right. And because all this is easier to feel than to just hear, I'm gonna have a clinic. Um, I don't know what the date is, but I am just throwing this out here because I want to plug this to you guys. Um, I am going to be doing uphill and downhill trail clinic um here in the Phoenix area. So um we'll work on the efficient climbing, the descending with confidence, um, when to hike, uh, even talking about the fear, like and what you guys feel when you're out there, how to just keep loose. Um, so I definitely um will put that out there. It'll be on Instagram. I'll put it in my newsletter. Um go and join my newsletter if you want to, by the way. But that'll be where I give more details um around uh this clinic that uh one of my athletes actually suggested to me, which sparked this episode. So thanks, Julie, for that. Um so just just keep in mind, I will do it sometime in the winter, by the way, because it is better weather and we can do it at a better time of day for everybody. But um, yeah, more details to come. So, but now that we've said all that, man, we've talked about all the things. This is my longest episode, and I didn't plan for that, but it's me. Um, so we've talked uphill, downhill, hiking, my like the mindset to have of like how to work through the fear of starting small and getting bigger. But just remember, like, you do not have to be fast to be a good climber. And you just have to keep showing up. I mentioned that, just just small steps. So they'll get stronger and stronger as you go. And then, so you're you've got the hill there, you've climbed it, you're a good climber, right? You're just taking those small steps, and then when it's time to come down, soften up and trust your body and let the trail guide you. Now, go move your body, drink some water, and stretch your calves. And if you're listening while running, loosen your shoulders. You're welcome. Good effort, positive attitude.