Episode 46: Born to Climb: My Journey to Vert

I didn't build a love for climbing. I just finally stopped being surprised that it was already there.

In this episode, I'm answering a question from one of my athletes and friends — how did I actually build my capacity for vert? Were there numbers that scared me? How did I get here?

• How I fell in love with climbing before I even knew what vert was
• Rim to rim in the Grand Canyon three weeks into trail running
• Showing up to races without looking at the elevation profile — and what that taught me
• When I actually started paying attention to vert and how it changed my training
• How I structure long runs and training blocks around elevation profiles
• Why poles took so long to enter my life and what changed when they did
• Getting faster near the top — not slower — and what that means
• What climbing actually feels like and why it's always been fun, even when it's hard

Links & Resources for This Episode

• Follow me on Instagram
• Visit my website: www.sunrisetrailscoaching.com
• Want to work together? Learn about 1:1 Coaching
• Free guide: What’s In My Pack? Download here

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey y'all, welcome back to Dirt Nap Diaries. I'm your host, Brittany Olson, Trailrunner, Women's Trailrunning Coach, Hypewoman, and Professional Overpacker of the Midrun Snacks. This show is for the everyday trailrunner, the one training on real-life legs and real life time. You've got work, relationships, laundry, pets, a group text that never shuts up, and maybe a big skull sitting quietly in the back of your head that you're not totally sure you're allowed to want. You're not out here chasing podium spots, you're chasing finish lines, sunrises, and maybe a little sanity. This podcast is about trail running, but it's also about navigating life. The hard seasons, the joyful ones, and the ones where everything feels like too much. So let's get into it. Alright, y'all. Uh man, no big announcements. Went to a concert this last weekend down in Tucson um at a newer venue called the Rosa. It's um uh like an old mission building um that they have redone and the acoustics are freaking amazing, so the sounds is just great. I just a really neat little little venue to go to, and they take those old like missions or the old churches and do stuff with them. It's pretty, pretty neat. So saw fruit bats, if you're wondering who it was. Um, they normally would sell something like Crescent, so not huge venues, uh, but not the tiniest of venues either. So uh one of our faves. Outside of that, uh training, training, training. Uh nothing bit, nothing big, like no huge runs. Things are uh feeling better. It seems like I'm a little stagnant in um a little bit of recovery, but it's not really stagnant, it just feels that way because I'm over a month since I finished, and I still have a few little things that I can feel. Um, there's still some definitely some deep fatigue going on. Um I feel the need to nap daily, and I don't have time to nap daily, so I'm not. But I'm I'm not opposed to naps. I just don't have time to nap every day. Um, but still, so definitely still some recovery um going on. But um that is the name of the game. That is what it is. But I do have an appointment with my PT to get things, just check things out, make sure things are moving well. Um go to uh do Mount Blanc, a hike at Mount Blanc in France, um in less than a month it starts, which is crazy. So really just want to try to get things as uh squared away as possible and make sure I, you know, if there's anything I can do to either help with recovery or help with like my A left ankle has been shit for years. Um what anything I can do to make sure I'm doing the right things. I'm doing my PT workouts I have, but just to make sure I don't need needle or some kind of soft tissue work to get things moving. Because sometimes you just need a little extra help. Even if you're doing all the things that you're supposed to be doing, um, you just need a little extra. So why am I explaining all that? Because it's my personal life update. That's what I've been thinking about, about how I like all these little niggles and all this fatigue to go away. But you when you run 250 plus miles, um, I guess that doesn't happen in a week or two, uh, which I do know that by the way, but it's still kind of frustrating at times. But had a great run this morning. Weather is getting hotter, it's a little humid. We had a little rain yesterday. Not much, but a little bit, but it definitely adds to that humidity. So, but everything is feeling good. I'm not gonna complain about the mornings because once we hit 95, that's when you're gonna hear me bitching quite a bit. So, um, outside of that though, this is not a Kokodona episode, even though I've already mentioned Cocodona because I probably will in every single podcast for the rest of our lives. Uh, not really, but that's still it's still on my brain because it's still very exciting, and I think we should celebrate all the things that we do that we're excited about. But this episode is about vert, and not necessarily just about vert, but how and why I love it. Uh, one of my friends slash athletes, and we were friends before she was actually one of my athletes, just so you know, but Catherine um had asked me the the questions about she sent me like just a little thing. It said, uh, I'm gonna read it verbatim just because she said, You're in your journey to Vert question mark. Like, how'd you build your capacity to vert? Were the numbers that were there numbers that scared you that were hard to get beyond? Um not so much about climbing change, but you've said a bunch of times that you love climbing and I want your journey. Uh so I don't want to say I have some big um thing that's like this is why I love Vert or anything like that, but I will start with like how I started trail running, just explain that a little bit. Um, and then just kind of dive into when I actually started looking at Vert. So like being a newbie trail runner, not knowing anything, just running a couple races without even looking at the profile, going to the Grand Canyon, um, and then like when I started paying more attention to what Vert was and what it meant for training, and then and maybe we'll get to why I love it, because I'm not even quite sure, so maybe we'll process it as we go here. Um, but my very first trail run, uh, I joined an Arabia group run on a Monday night. I told a friend, um, I saw it on Facebook and I was going to do the run and I was gonna go to the social, which was a big thing for me to go out by myself and do that. Um, and I met some of the best people. That Monday night run, it used to be in the summers, because that's when I started, it was at the beginning of July 2018, by the way, was when all that started. So we're almost at eight years. Um, but I think it was like 10 to 12 people then, and you might get a few more um here and there, 20 to 25, but for the most part, it was a core group. Now, if you see the pictures from that, it is a lot, a lot of people. I mean, like, it looks like some of those pictures look like over 100 people show up and they have different pace groups and a height group and an injury group and all that stuff. But when I started, it was probably 10 to 12 people at that group run uh first week of July, so it was hot and no headlamps were required, so I hadn't even got to the night running pieces yet. But what I do have to mention here is I met one of my really good friends, um, James, there. Uh he was a big supporter of Coca-Dona um too. But um, he was one of the first people I met there, him and Christina were the two and Stephanie. And um with James, like he knew all the trails, knew all the things. So, like, talked with him um at the trail, talked with him at the social, and like just he's the one that I started running with from the very beginning, like getting to know the trail. So the time I was still doing some roads of the week, and then like he took me on my first long trail run, like on a weekend, and from there just um really started running with him a lot, ran with others who actually ran with Christine a little bit, with Stephanie a little bit. But James was definitely like the number one person I was running with um at that time. And probably about I've been running about three weeks on the trail. So I'd already I had completed one marathon by the way at this point. Uh, and it was uh the rock and roll here in Phoenix, so fairly flat with like a slight uphill in one spot. Um, and uh so but it was a lot of road running in Phoenix, in the Phoenix area, which where I live is is fairly flat, so not lots of climbing, but I have been a weightlifter since I was uh a junior in college. So like I've always had some pretty strong legs. Uh even in high school, like that was kind of noticeable. Even now when I meet people, if especially if like there's somebody I've talked to uh via Instagram um through coaching um or through a business mentorship. Uh like when I meet them, one of the first things they talk about is my legs, which I love. I love having strong legs, but like I have worked on to to get those two. But um, so like I've always had that background. I've had a very athletic background. I have played sports for psh, I don't even know how long, just forever, as long as I could. Uh so I've but I've always pushed myself physically, and when I look back, it was actually a lot of mental and emotional pushes too, because you are doing things that are uncomfortable when you do things new. Uh when you when you up to say like the next level of softball and you're learning new skills, like that can be very uncomfortable, but you push through those things. So now I go back to uh trail running. So probably I was probably three weeks into trail running because we had to make a plan at least to meet up. But James had asked if I wanted to go into the Grand Canyon and do rim to rim. I had no idea what that meant. I mean, I knew it you could that was going into the Grand Canyon. I didn't even know at the time that you could actually go into the Grand Canyon. I had never been, um, was not a camper really. I'd went camping a couple times in my life. Uh so this is where trail running is actually where I started camping. So in my early 30s was when I started really, really camping. Um, and my answer, which a lot a lot of you travel owners who do have experience now, even it's just it's the same thing. Yeah, heck yeah, fuck yeah, whatever it is. We're all very much showing to, hey, you want to do something like this? Yep. Um, so that's really what it was. So I think I already had the personality, but uh, so he's like, well, let's go next weekend. So at this point it was the beginning of August, and right now I cannot remember the date, and I wish I could picture it because James made me a mug at the end of it with the elevation gain and elevation change. But either way is beginning of August. I'm gonna say like August 2nd, August 3rd, somewhere around there. Um, and if you don't notice about the canyon, you have to drop in first before you can climb out. Uh so you so you drop in and then you go along um you go you hit the box eventually, which is about a five-mile section, you hit the frying pan, all these spots, so you go across, you go down, it's about seven miles down south, Kaibab, a few miles. So I'm not doing the mileage right now. I'm getting approximates, but you go down um and then you go through the canyon. Um, go, you stop at the water spots, you jump in the creek when you can because it's freaking August and it's warm. Um the bottom of the canyon is about the same temperatures as Phoenix, just so you know. So the top of the canyon is a lot nicer and it's very deceiving because we camped at the top of South Rim the night before. I believe it's called Mather uh Campground, and it was beautiful and nice. And I already been warned it was gonna be warmer going down, so it wasn't like I was completely surprised, but it definitely warmed up so much compared to camping on the rim. Um, so anyway, went through the canyon and then you climb up North Kaibab to the North Rim. This is a lot of climbing. Um it can be pretty demoralizing, and at that time I didn't use poles. In fact, I didn't start using poles until almost two years ago. Um, and I have never been opposed to to using them. I just never bought them. I never got in my head to get them. Uh, and then when I did, holy cow, that changed things. But we are not there yet. So uh but so we're climbing out of Northrim. Uh it's five miles, and I cannot remember how much verte, y'all man. See, this is here's how you can tell how I prep for my uh podcast. Sometimes I have like all the data and sometimes I don't, but I want to say it's it's it's five miles and you're going up for a while. Like it's steeper than what South Room is that you went down. Um and you have a couple stops along the way, a couple of water stops. But uh when you start that climb, you've just left um one of the little um stops there, the little rest areas as a picnic table in a creek. And just if you ever go to the canyon, guys, and it's that hot, make sure you get into a creek or get everything as wet as possible because that water feels so good down there. Um, but we we climbed up and for somebody who had just started trail running, my legs felt fairly fresh. It was hard, and I wasn't eating as much as I do now, or do I nor did I know as much as what I do now about eating. Um and along the way, and James will love this too, um, he he got a little bit uh sick. He'd he had completed rim to rim before a few times, and on the way up, like he had um he was not feeling well, ended up puking a little bit. I'm here, a newbie trailrunner, baby trailrunner, and I'm just like, and I'm sitting here like, man, I feel so good. Like I could just keep going. I am not an asshole. I would is not going to leave him. Um but eventually what happened is as we were going up, like I did start getting a little bit shorter on water because we were moving a little slower. So he did, we got so far and he was sitting in the shade, and he's like, hey, go ahead and go up. His daughter had I was actually driving the car to the other side to meet us, to pick us up. So like my goal was just to get up there, chat with her, um, and make sure I had and refill my waters and stuff just so I, you know, if I were to go back down and get him, like I could. So uh, but the whole point of this is like I'm my legs are are we're just we're feeling good. Like, even though I was climbing out of the Grand Canyon, I felt really freaking good and I loved it, and I love just climbing up and looking back and just seeing the things that were below me and like in front of me, and it was just like this feeling of like, yes, I really, really like this. Um, but um, so when I whenever I got to the top, um James's daughter was there and we had just kind of taut-chat a little bit, and she ended up going down and just like walking back up with him because I had just did something that I'd never done before. Like, I have it's a little under a marathon, by the way, to do the rim-to-rim. So, like, I've done the distance, but it is very, very different on a trail, and it's very, very different in the Grand Canyon when you have so much down and then so much up. So at that point, like I totally knew um I loved climb. I love trail running, but I loved climbing. Um, I love the physicality, um, just the mental pushes. Because it's not like it's easy. Like, some people think like if you love vert, maybe it's easy for you. And it's not that it's easy, there's something about that feeling of pushing yourselves. I mean, I remember my very first trail on, like, I mentioned earlier, I didn't mention, but it was on Desert Classic, which is at South Mountain. It's not flat. I wouldn't consider it rolling, but it's not climbing. You have some pretty deep washes, but there's no like you're not actually climbing, climbing. Um, it's just more like, hey, I'm gonna go deep into a wash, and I have to go straight out of a wash. Um, and it's a fun one to get some leg turnover, by the way. But that's where I'd started doing it, and I still had a blast doing that. So even if I hadn't started climbing so quickly, like after that, I think I would have still loved trail running. But then um, just like the next run that I did, I did a national to Mormon loop, uh, which is one of my favorites at SOMO SOMO has so many trails, by the way. Um, but it is, I believe it's it is about five and a half miles, and I want to say it's about 600 feet again uh in the in that, and it's that's all at the beginning, and then once you get to Mormon, you start going down. Um, but that is where I remember doing that first climb, I was thinking, like, what the hell? Like, this is a little bit hard in this desert. That desert classic was like, I remember because coming from uh running on the road to the trails, your paces are slower. And I remember on Desert Classic, I was like, okay, like I was a little bit slower, but it wasn't that bad. But that's because that one is a more flat trail. It's not flat, but it's more flat. And then when you do something like National to Mormon or like we have out here um the white tanks at Mesquite Um Canyon, there there's there's it's very different. And I remember looking at my watch a few times because like I had could not run the entire uphill um and thinking like, oh my gosh, like an 18-minute mile, like that's what my pace is right now. Is this running? And you find out that that is what running is. Um, so I had like done a flat some flat trails before I did um the canyon. I had also done like uh the National Mormon loop and been out to South Mountain for in a couple other spots at the time, I wouldn't have been able to tell you what the heck they're in right now, I can't remember. But then there was the Grand Canyon and there was the climbing, and there I was just kind of like, this is it. Like this climbing is amazing. And it still didn't trigger me to be like, hey, I need to sign up for races with a climbing, or hey, like this is what I need to do, or hey, this is how I need to fuel, or this is how I'm gonna get stronger climbing. None of that was in my brain, and maybe it was because I was new. I think part of it was I'd always been a competitive athlete, and for once, like in my life, it I wasn't worried about competing. I was just like I was just out there enjoying it, and like just enjoying my body pushing up hills, and it's not that I hate downhills, I mean I like where my teeth are, so I in my where my face is, so sometimes I struggle with downhill running in that aspect when it's technical, but there was just that uphill. Um, it just felt it just felt right and it felt good, and I didn't feel this pressure to like start looking at like let me look at this map and see how much I can gain, or let me look at this race and see. It was just more like this is really cool. Like, what else can I do? Um, and I don't feel like I was some people have asked like if I was scared um my first time in the canyon or like with some of the uphill uphill things I've done. And just just climbing, like that doesn't scare me. The only thing I'm scared of is heights, and if it's I'm on the edge. So if I'm climbing and I'm on the edge, I'm hugging the wall, yeah, I'm nervous. But it's not the actual climbing piece that like worries me. Like, I'm not out there like, oh my gosh, like what if I can't keep going up? Um, oh my gosh, like what if the other side, the downhill, is gonna be super technical. Like, that's not I'm not scared of that. It is the heights when I'm on the edge. So if if you do have a fear of climbing or even descending, but we're talking about climbing, I'll try to stay on topic. Um, it really is exposure. It's getting out there, and whether it's getting out there with friends, getting out there solo, I I prefer a combo as you're getting used to things. Um, that way, like sometimes being around other people gives you that courage, um, having that encouragement is fantastic, but then also doing it solo, it is a different frame of mind. So doing it both ways, but it really is that exposure. Um, again, I again the climb doesn't scare me. Animals and and um heights do, and when I say animals, I mean snakes. So do your research on things if you are nervous though, and I don't just mean on snakes, um, which I do, but do your research on the on the terrain, on the climb and all that, whether it's all trails, whether it's just googling again, somebody wrote about it. Um, sometimes you can find a substack on it, um, or a Reddit, but you can see what these trails look like, and that can also help bring some some comfort to you, um, or at least like get you good the courage to get out there and try a climb that you really want to climb. Maybe it's the Grand Canyon, maybe it's Whitney, um, it could be anything, so many different mountains to climb. So Colorado is some amazing one. Sandwands, poof, awesome. So it's just something though that you do have to work through. And a lot of times, yes, there can be physical limitations. I am I'm I'm well aware of that. There's also mental limitations as well. So there's different limits, but like being an able-bodied person, like I knew physically I could do it. So, like, physically, it is something I'm not saying go into the Grand Canyon and you've only ran two miles um and you're not a hiker. That's not what I'm saying, but like you can get physically ready for that. A lot of times, by the time you get physically ready though, like sometimes that mental space is the hardest part to work through. So, so what so some of the benefits I'm just gonna say for me was just being probably being a lifelong athlete. I feel like that's a huge thing for me because I've always been moving. I've been lifting weights for a long time. Even at that point when I did the canyon, I think I've been lifting weights for like I don't know, 13 years or so. I feel like my legs have I keep on pausing to cough, guys, if you're wondering. Um, I still have that stupid cough. Um, but uh I've always played sports and I feel like I've always just had strong legs. It's always been something on me that's been a little bit bigger. And when I was a little bit younger, or quite a bit younger, I say I'm 40 now, shit. Um, it would bother me a bit more, like how big my legs were. Um, but then eventually I realized like I have strong legs, and it just was like, and it's not like I had strong legs and I was just sitting around, you know, like I was working out sports, all the things, but I do think like having those strong legs did help me like the climbing a bit more because like I did have that strength, I did have that physical ability to be able to push a little bit harder just because of my background. So I do think that did play a role. So if you weren't an athlete growing up, or um if you didn't haven't done a lot of like strength training, or your legs you don't feel like are as strong as what you would like them to be, or they could, or you feel like they could be stronger, um, you can strengthen those legs and you can work on that. And part of that is like weightlifting, but part of that is getting out and exposing yourself to those. So it is exposing, it is doing the thing. Um, it might not be your most favorite thing in the whole wide world, um, but like you can learn to enjoy it a bit more, especially if you do get those legs stronger. So for me, again, like I've explained, like I had a background in just sports, um, then obviously the background in weightlifting um and just always being active. So I do feel that was very helpful in me liking that the uphill, liking those climbs. Um, so also like I did uh we'll talk about a couple races I signed up for in the beginning because like I said, it didn't when I when I did the canyon, like I knew I liked climbing, but it didn't make me go and look for climbing races. Um so I ran my very first race was Vertigo, and it was just a couple weeks after, um, it was two or three weeks after we did uh the REM to rem. And it was a 31k, and I had never been to a trail race before, and it is done at the comp loop here at the White Tanks, um, which is now my home mountain, it wasn't at the time, but because I had been training on that National Mormon loop, I had so much climbing in, and then the Grand Canyon again, lots of climbing. I did not know what a competitive loop was. And for us, we call them comp loops. Um, they are normally one way, and mountain bikers love them because of you can get going on them. They're not super well, there's some super technical parts in this, but they're not technical throughout. It's not like this whole bunch of like climbing, climbing. It's a bunch of flat, you go into washes, you come up, you have one real climb there, is what I call it. And I couldn't even tell you, two to three hundred feet maybe, maybe at most, and it's a 10k loop. It is not that much climbing compared to the Grand Canyon or compared to that National Mormon loop. Um, so like I ran up the first when I ran up the and this is only six weeks after I started trail running, maybe something like that. Um, I had uh ran up that hill and I get to the top and I could hear somebody behind me. I was like, is that it? And they're like, Yeah, now you go down. I was like, Oh, okay. So uh they're 10, like I said, they're 10k loops, and I did three of those. And uh the only time I actually had to stop and walk for about 20 seconds on the very third loop, uh, which I was proud of, but it showed like my climbing legs. I remember there was and there's so many different races going on there at the same time. Like I was passing people from different races um on the uphill, and I had a couple people pass me on the flat, but like once I got to the uphill, like I realized how strong I was and I was was going past people. It's single track, so it's a bit of a bummer to try to go around people, but it is what it is. Um, so I actually got second place at that race, my first ever, and I still had not looked at an elevation profile or even probably knew what that meant. Um, but I'd done that one, and then uh I had a friend invite me out to do uh the Mogeon Monster uh uh marathon. I believe it was it was a little bit shorter when I did it now. It's a 42k, I believe it was a little bit less. Um, and that was really my first very different kind of race um in terms of like it was in the pines, it's in Pine, um, Arizona. So it's a very different type of race. Uh I learned what Weber was, which is a trail that goes uphill and has a lot of switchbacks. But this is a pretty rugged place to be. It's the it's the it's the Hunter Miler that I've DNF'd um last September, and that I'm gonna go back for. But um, it's tough, and I just had a friend again invite me. She was like, hey. You wanna go? And I'm like, okay. Like so. That's again, that's how a lot of bad d decisions happen, but also a lot of fun decisions. Um, so this was super, super tough. Um, didn't know anything about it. Again, there was just like climbing, and it was it was just it was hard. Like, it was really hard. And this is another race I came in second place woman. Um had no idea. Hadn't hadn't had no idea exactly where I was. Um, just know I'd been felt like I'd just been climbing um forever. And I'm sorry, I just said second place. I think I was third place woman. Now I don't know here. I was on the podium, guys. See, this shows how much my brain works, but I was on the podium. We'll go with that. I really now I don't refer to second or third place. That's really weird. Um, it's my Strava profile picture. If anybody wants to go take a look and tell me, that's great. So um, but again, it was one of those things where I wasn't being trying to be competitive. I was just trying to do my best and have fun out there and enjoy the day, and it warmed up a bit. But Pine is a little bit higher than Phoenix, so it was like definitely a cooler day and there was shade. Um, and I just enjoyed it. I was out there like whew, this is hard. Um, but I I loved every single minute of it. And when I remember when I was climbing, I enjoyed it more than like the flats of like, yes, I got leg turnover, but pushing myself up was so great. And there's some and and maybe it's the competitiveness in me still or the athlete in me from playing sports, but as I go upwards and I pass people, I definitely get a huge boost. And maybe that's just normal for everybody, as you pass somebody, no matter where it's at, you get a boost, I feel like. But for some reason, that uphill pass for me always makes me like feel just strong and powerful, and it doesn't make me like think less of the person who I pass, it makes me like feel just confident in the build abilities that I have and what I'm doing out there. So, um, so now I but then of course like even after that race, I was kind of thinking, I was like, man, the does the unknown make me relax and actually race better? Um, and I still don't know if that's the truth, by the way. I've no, or I don't even know if that's true. Uh, but I do know in those moments before I really started like looking at race profiles, figuring out like what an emotional investment in a longer race meant, um, I really was like the ignorance of of not knowing what I was doing was kind of an asset at the time just because I was so chill and relaxed about it. It wasn't that I wasn't nervous before I started, I've always been nervous before I start a race, before the start of a game, before the start of a new job, you know, anything that's new. Um, but like I wasn't, once I started, there was just like a f my body just kind of flowed with it. So there are some things I miss about being a new trailrunner, and not even just a new trailrunner, but like one who just, you know, went with the flow and did races. Although now I can see as those distances got longer, because I have ran longer distances, y'all, um, it does help to look at elevation profiles. It does help to know about fueling, it does help to practice fueling and hydration. All of those things matter because a 31k, whatever Mog was when I did it less than a marathon, like you can get by a little. I mean, I was eating out there by the way, but you can get by on not knowing. As those the time on feet starts to grow, you definitely need to know more about food. Also, as I've gotten older, my needs have changed, so that also makes a difference too. So when it's come to performance, the feeling and hydration has become more of a focus, and also knowing what the hell I'm doing in a race in terms of, hey, is this a lot of climbing or not? Um, so but when did I start actually paying attention to vert and races and like picking races on that? And I don't even know, that really wasn't part of the question, but it is part of like the reason I love climbing. So that's what that's why this is coming in here. Uh so black cane 100k, first 100k I did. I I I I had do a 50k um prior to this. Uh I realized that that 50k too, we won't get into it. My very first 50k pass mountain, lots of flat, one big climb, which was amazing and beautiful, and then a really cool descent. What I realized I did not like, it's it was two 25k loops at the time. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but um, I did not enjoy the flat parts. I did not, and that and I now I actually enjoy flats a little bit more. Um, I feel like I have a better race plan when I have those. But uh what I was so in love with like climbing up past mountain and then like dropping down. Like it was just it was amazing. Um so like I had that and in my back pocket, but again, did not look at the elevation profile for that one. Went into the black 100k. All I knew is it was a net downhill, and people were excited for that. So I signed up for the 100k. Now they're a lot more entered in that race, by the way. It is huge, it is a bigger deal than it was before, even though it's always been a or it's been a golden ticket race for as long as I've known for known it for Western states, it seems like it's grown. Um, but I didn't say that one much. I had just somebody said, hey, you get most of the downhill up front in the first like 60-ish K, and then the back half is where, and they call it the back half. They don't mean half marathon or half the distance, they just mean the back half of the race, um, after the 60k. So 40-ish K, you get some more climbing there. Um, and I remember I actually and I had a ton of fun at that 100k. I lived on science and sport, lemon lime gels before they had their beta gels, potatoes at A stations, um, Coke when I would see my crew for sure, uh, some potatoes there too. Uh Wayne was my crew, he was my first crew chief. Um, and uh just ran that sucker, and it ended up being a uh reroute year because of rain. So even though I had known the course was like flat in the beginning and then you got more uphill, I didn't know what to expect at all in terms of this reroute because we did it. We had an out and back um in a couple of spots, and there was some switchbacks, but like definitely had no idea what I was doing um in terms of just like eating or or how to race this. Um and I finished in sub-12 hours, and I was super, super stoked. That was my goal out there, and I did it. And again, like without looking at that, but I did realize when I was out there as I was doing the downhill, it was fun and it was super pretty out, and that part really helped me, but I don't enjoy that as much as what I do with that uphill grind. So again, still enjoyed it, man. You when you sign up for those distances, you gotta you gotta have some joy out there. So I had a blast, talk to a bunch of people, but again, like didn't really study it. Um, but then um I did like as and I have a very type A analytical brain, so eventually it did catch up to me of like, man, like if I'm gonna be spending money on these races, um, because races, y'all, not cheap, especially with ultra distances, but even now, like, 5k can be super expensive. So um it's like okay, I have to pick my races. I need to volunteer more. Um, but I wanted to sign up for the Moge on 105k. So I had done that less than marathon distance, um, and then I knew there was 105k, which doesn't exist anymore, by the way. Uh, and I was like, I am gonna look at this elevation profile. I'm gonna look at the map, I'm gonna see what the heck I'm doing. And they also do training runs. Um, Araviapa puts on the race and they put on a couple training runs um during the summer for that. And uh so I went out and did those uh training runs too, which helped. So it was my first time really experimenting or really and um knowing, really being focused on that training block for what it was. I had done some Black Canyon training runs with people, but I was out there just not even paying attention. Maybe that sounds bad, but I loved it because there was no stress, nothing. It was just out there with friends doing some cool stuff. But went out to these Mogue training runs, uh, had studied the map because it was a lot of vert. So you're looking at, you know, 65-ish miles, um, just tons and tons of climbing. Uh, I believe the 100 mile uh has close to 20,000 of vert, if I'm not mistaken, uh, which is the one I'm going back for. So it's less than that, but it's still a lot, a lot, a lot of climbing. So course has changed quite a bit since then, but it's just it's a rugged area, so just know that. Um but what I want to do, there's like I said, there's a couple reasons why races are expensive, and I wanted to make sure like it was worth my time. I also um, and I'm a big um proponent of this too, is like making sure you're emotionally invested in these races. So there's gonna be a financial investment, obviously, but making sure it's something you really want, something that you're gonna be on fire for. I have said that in other podcasts before too. But as I looked at the vert map for this, the elevation profile for this, I was like, fuck yeah. And when I said that, I knew I was like, alright, I'm in doing it. Like, this is my kind of race. Um, and let me tell you, I did not have the best race of my life ever. Um, but I ended up having a really good time, and once once I stopped crying, and well, once I got out of my head, but this was a race where it did rain just for a little bit. Pine can get um rain that Phoenix does not get. Imagine that's a couple hours away. But uh at one point it rained and it got really sloshy, and I had like and I fell and I hurt my knee, and the the my race strategy going into this was like, okay, you're gonna be hiking a lot of those uphills, and then then you can trot and jog to the downhills and on the flats where you've got them, you know, you can you can jog those two, run those two. Um, because of that, however, I fell and I ended up not being seriously injured or anything, but I had jarred my knee just enough that the uphills felt fine and the downhills hurt so bad. Um, my knee just hurt. It might have been like if you I don't know how you how much you guys know about our bodies, but when you're running downhill, you are using your quad muscles, which is the front of your leg. So as you're running downhill, you do um those those quads get the pressure, and then your knee gets the pressure. So either way, like there was a lot of pressure on my knees, and I was feeling it. Um and I was pretty bummed for a bit, uh, and that was only around mile 20. So I had over 30 miles left at that point, but um just kept moving. Uh eventually picked up a pacer somewhere along the way. I couldn't tell you where. Had a crew who just made sure I kept moving. Um, but again, the climbs felt good. Um, I did puke out there, by the way. I'm a puker, as you guys know. But the climbs did, they felt great, and it was just the descents that really bothered my knee, and it had nothing to do with my training, it had everything to do with falling. Um, but I do remember I'm about to hit a downhill, and it is a technical downhill um into an aid station, and I uh and I remember I'm at the top and my crew chief was standing there and and she was she was she's like talking to me and she could tell I was about to cry again because like I was just tired because I had a plan. I was not executing on the plan, I was gonna be way off. I think I ended up finishing like three hours after I was planned on it, but I just didn't feel good, and I had just puked and I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. And she just looked at me, she goes, Okay, see at the finish, and she gave me a little shove, not a shove down, but just a little push, like nudge, love, love, nudge, and got me moving and kept me going. So what's the point of that story? Well, I like to tell stories, so there's that. But like, again, as I was going down, I was picking my way down that trail, and my knee actually started feeling a little bit better. Didn't feel great, I could still feel it, but I was like, okay, like this isn't like the best, but you know what? I know when I start on that uphill, my knee's not gonna hurt at all. And that's literally what happened. So part of my still love of of going uphill, maybe from that race, um, of just being like, hey, like it didn't hurt when I went uphill because I didn't fall on my knee going uphill, I fell on it going downhill in a weird way. Uh, but like when I when it is like that heavy vert like that, I mean it just I I super, super like love it. And again, that could be the race that really changed it for me because of that weird little knee thing that happened. Um but now whenever I look at races, um, I do look for vert. I signed up for one race that was flatter, the Colossal Vale 50, and I want to go back and do that one because I did the 55k instead. I was s I got I was sick. Um, but uh that's one that's not super vert-y. Uh it's 50 miles, like 4,000 feet of gain or 4,400 feet of gain. So that's a little bit flatter, but it still has a little climbing, but it looks fun. But for the most part, when I am looking at a race, when I'm looking for a race to do one that gets me excited, there's vert. I mean, there is vert like crazy. Coca-Dona, Vert like crazy. Uh Mogeon Monster 100, this coming September, Vert like crazy. Um, and if you look on my ultra sign up, I don't race a lot, like I do pick my races. I'm very particular. Part of it is because I want to make sure I'm emotionally invested, and then I've got to put the financial investment in, so the money. Um then, and the other part is I do get a lot of anxiety um before racing. It's gotten better and better. Um, the more I've coached, actually, the anxiety has gotten less and less. But I still enjoy the training process so much more than the actual um like racing all the time. I love the races I've done, and I love that I don't race a lot, but I can't ever see myself racing as often as other other people do. So, but when I do look, it's something that you guys should keep in mind too. So if you hate climbing, and that's okay, if you prefer a leg turnover, I'm talking to you, Renee. Um, but like if you love that leg turnover, pick the races that you can actually run that way. There are races like that, there are plenty of trail races like that. Just like there's plenty of trail races that have vert, or plenty of trail races that have some net down or net downhill. When I say net downhill, y'all, I'm sorry I should explain that. It means there's more down than up. So you could go down 5,000 feet and climb 4,000 feet, and that means it's a net downhill of a thousand feet. Because you went down more, a thousand feet more. Um, but pick the race you want. Uh, whether it has to do with climbing, with weather, with scenery, um, whatever it is, you've got to pick the one that you want to do. So as we get closer to that, like we'll call present day, like nowadays, um, when I think about too, when I started paying attention to those race profiles, it also made me pay more attention to fueling, but also how my training was. So before I got into like really looking into like what I want to say what my run should look like, but how how training should look, I was really just running with people. Um, and I eventually went to a lot more solo running, but like I was just following them on their trails as I was learning the different paths and routes to take, especially at South Mount. I went to a few others, but South Mountain was a big one. Um, and I was just following people on their training runs, which is fine. That's what trail running is. Sometimes just it was hanging out with people and running with them. Uh, but eventually, like I was like, okay, like we defin I want some structure. Like, I see these people doing certain things, and it wasn't again because like I wanted to win every single race. It was because I want to do the best that I could and feel the best that I could. And at the same time, even in my brain, I knew with recovery, if I'm doing the right things for training, um, that means like after the race, when it comes to recovery, I can recover better. So it was it was both in my brain about like what I needed um to do. So that's where I started looking at like um I've I'll give Coconut as an example just because it's on my mind and I just like talked about it. But that race has a lot of vert up front and then a lot of flat at the end, um, except for at the very, very end, well there's Elden. But that's so that's how my training box were blocks were structured, where okay, like the very first run of that long run, of the long runs for the weekend, it's gonna be a lot of vert because that's how the race is. And then the next day, if I was only doing two long runs, um I would do that would be a much flatter run. So I would have like say a six-hour run one day and then a three-hour run the next day. And sometimes my mileage, if you looked at the mileage, didn't look that much different um because of like just the amount of vert I was doing on my vert days. Um, but that's where you saw the differences. Like I was just climbing and climbing and climbing, and then on my flatter days, it was more rolling and and flat. So uh, but that's how I that's how I structure it. And then also I did more hilly workouts through the through the block. Um, I had some VO2-max workouts even in the beginning, and granted, that's more for pushing that your um your your lung capacity, your heart, making everything work more efficiently. But also going uphill, that still helps you run uphill. Like it still does. You're working the muscles, you're getting things done. Uh, so I did some hilly workouts like that, and then I just, or like straighter. Those are actually hill works. I mean just hilly workouts, but hill workouts up and down, up and down, up and down. And then I also did hilly runs where you're more flowing with it, where you're not just going up and back down, up, you're you're actually doing like more of a hilly run, um, which really, really helps those legs out. I will still do hilly runs even if I was training for a flatter race because there's such great benefits to it, but there were more and more intentional workouts around um the hilliness just because of the races I sign up for typically. Um, and Coca-Dona was one of those that was like that. We also look at um the long runs, and then as you get closer to your race, um, you look at like how many feet per mile of gain you're gonna have. So something like Javelina 100, again, a race that I'm not super interested in. I love going to it, one of my favorite ones to coach and crew at. It's a really fun race. But that one is only, and I want to say it's around 70 to 75 feet per mile of gain. Um, while like I have run other races that were like 190 to 200 feet of gain. So those are the ones I tend to look for. Um, and it's not necessarily that gain, but when I look at an elevation profile, I can see like, yeah, that's gonna be my jam. Um, so just it's doing that though in training, is knowing what you're training for because as you get closer to to the race, those runs should become much more race specific than what you were doing at the beginning of your block. So know what you like, uh, whether it's climbing, whether it's leg turnover, whether it's pretty scenery, whether it's a combo of different things, um, whatever it is, make sure like it's a race that you really want. You gotta have that fire. And then from there you can build your block around that. Um, so that's really though when the racing did become more intentional, was like when I signed up for that 105k, I've been trail running a little over a year um by the time I raced that, so it was less than a year before I started actually focusing on it. And it still wasn't a huge like focus. Like I started doing more things, but then I did work with a coach for a bit after that experience and learn more, and then I became a coach myself, and then like I continue to learn more and more. I'm still learning. People are teaching me things all the time. Um, but that is like it did. And there are some days where I miss just showing up. Um, and I don't mean that in a negative way or a bad way. There's just a little nostalgia on just kind of showing up. Um, what do they call it? Green behind the gills? They say something, there's a saying for that. I don't know, there's a lot of sayings, but you know, just being new, being fresh, fresh baby out of the womb. That's what I was as a fresh baby out of the womb trail runner. There's some things you kind of miss about that at times, and then there's some things you don't miss about that at times. So, um, and then now like having that experience, I do feel more confident going into things, more confident in my training blocks, more confident even in how I um coach other athletes too. So there's some there's some things to having some experience being a little seasoned. Um, but for me, um, I do also want to talk about like what does climbing actually feel like? And I think for each person it's different. I think if you already go into a workout or a run and you know there's gonna be climbing and you're already having negative thoughts about it or you're pissy about it, it's not gonna feel good for you, period. I'm not saying like physically, like you're in the best shape to be climbing, but that's how you get better is you're not always gonna be like in the best shape possible when you start something. So you need to go out there and do it, especially if you've signed up for a race that has that, or it's something you want to try. So great idea to do that. But if you go out there with that negative mindset already, and I'm not saying have one of those pity parties, man, like we all have them, those we all have our days, but I just mean every time you see something, you just think, fuck, ugh, uh, uh, like always, you're probably never gonna have a great experience with climbing. Um, again, some days are okay if you have that, but all the time you gotta work through that. Um, and then if you're just like, you know, I'm never gonna work through that, then don't worry about climbing. Like, if you don't feel like you're gonna miss out on anything, I'm I would never make you do a climbing race. I never make anybody race anything, period. But just think about that. Like, if you're always constantly in a in a downward spiral or in a negative mindset when you're gonna be climbing, like think about like, okay, what can I do to flip that? And then if you're just continuously like that, maybe climbing's just not for you. And that's okay. So, um, but I again the physicality of it, there are times where like I have been climbing up stuff before polls. Even with polls, sometimes things get hard, but with before polls that were it's just steep, and I was like, and somehow like you still manage to get up those climbs. Um, but one of the actual things that really changed clim I don't want to say sh changed it completely, but made me try a few more things was when I got polls. And I mentioned that earlier that it wasn't quite two years ago, and it really does help a ton with certain things, and it's not just the uphill, it's a downhill, but this podcast today is about uphill, but it really helps take some pressure off those legs. Um, I don't know, they s I I've heard 7%, I've heard 10%, I've heard 15%, depending on if you're going up or down. I don't know how they figure out those percentages, honestly. Like, I mean, yes, I know they do testing on people and they can do that stuff, but everybody's unique, so but it does take some pressure off the legs, just so you know. Also gonna warn you though, um, if you are not uh used to them or you don't lift weights or you just have a weaker upper body, your arms and shoulders, your triceps, especially your triceps, are gonna feel that. So you want to be doing some workouts with, I mean, you want to be strengthening your whole body, but like when it comes to poles, those triceps and shoulders can really feel things um real bad if you don't work those out. So pro tip, make sure you're working out those muscles so you can use the poles really well. Um, but again, it made me move a little bit better out there. Like if things were technical, it was nice. It has they have saved me from falling a couple of times um while going up or downhill. Like you can just catch yourself. So I don't want to say like it changed everything, but like it did make things better. Um, and I don't use them every single run. There's no need to use them every single run. I don't do runs that require poles all the time, but they are a fantastic tool to have. So why have I brought poles up a couple times? I know a few people, some old school people, some people who just don't want to buy them, um, who are like that's not we used to not have poles, blah blah blah, like all this bullshit stuff. And I'm like, well, you used to have sticks. You could have picked up a stick and used it. Like now we just have poles that are lightweight and collapse. So if you are a person who either has hesitated on buying poles because you feel like it's cheating, or just haven't bought them yet, man, go for it. I understand some things can cost money. Costco actually has some pairs that are not super expensive. Mine are fairly expensive. I use the Lecky uh Ultra FX ones, I think is what they're called, and those things are over 200 bucks. Um, I have used the shit out of them though, so I don't regret buying them. Um, I also got them at SCAD and Scandinavian outdoors, um, which is like an REI in Scandinavia. So just so you know, uh, there are ways to find the actual Lecky pairs. Um For a better price than what REI has them. And that was your commercial break. Maybe I can get sponsored by Lucky Guys. Wait, but we don't have commercials now. Do we really want those? So anyway, that's why I brought up poles. First of all, because it did help my climbing, but also like feel comfortable using them. If you want them, get them. Don't think of it as cheating, because it's not. It's only cheating if they're not allowed in the race that you're in. That's it. Um, so one thing that I mention is, hey, like, I'm not scared of of heights as long as I'm scared of heights, but as long as I'm not on the edge, I'm okay. Um, but I'm scared of of snakes. I'm still scared of breaking my face on the downhill. Like still those edges are all of that. So like that has not changed um with my with my climbing. So I love climbing so much, but even when it comes to like getting to the top of a hill, I'm kind of like, man, I'm almost I I kind of want to be climbing a little bit more because now I gotta go down this technical downhill. Um, and then also like the whole like, okay, climbing, like I climb so much and I'm always out there and I'm always on the trails. I'm like, maybe I won't be scared of snakes so much. I really am. I see them sometimes and I'm climbing up a up a hill and I'm like, damn it, there's another one. Um, so when it comes to what does the climbing actually feel like in that instance, well, for me, at least I'm not running downhill and normally I can see that snake in advance, which makes me feel better. Uh, but why do I bring up snakes? Because I just want you guys to know that I am not some brave little toaster all the time. I am terrified out there. Um, but when you climb, you're moving slower. So normally you see snakes before you step on their heads. So there's a positive right there to climbing right there. So if you're if you're already dreading climbing, think about how positive is that you won't step on a snake's head. Uh but again, I mentioned this before, the actual vert, it just didn't scare me. It's always been fun. It's always been hard, but again, it has always been fun for me. So maybe there's something again, it could just be my athletic, I don't say just, it could be my athletic background, it could be the like like to push myself, it could be my childhood trauma. Um, who knows? But there's something about how how that is that makes it hard. I think it reminds me of um Tom Hanks' quote, A League of Their Own, probably the most watched movie that I have for me. I have watched that movie so many times because I played softball for so many years and always wanted to be a professional softball player. Fun fact, I would take baseball now too, because now they have a women's baseball league. Yay! Um, but he said something like, Gosh, I can't even run the quote now. See, this is this is how I do my podcast episodes. I think about things as I'm speaking, but basically, like, of he's like, Yes, of course uh it's hard. Like the heart is what makes it great. Um, and that's for me how a lot of things are for me. I am more interested when things are more difficult. Um, and I don't mean difficult in a way that's stupid difficult, like if somebody's being dumb at work or being dumb wherever, like, no, I don't like that kind of difficulty, but with something that's just difficult and uncomfortable, I like being able to work through that. I like it, makes my brain so interested that like time goes by so much faster. So that's why I say I love trail running um compared to roadrunning. Like, my brain is so engaged and so interested and like sees the rocks, sees the beauty of everything. Um, and even when it gets difficult, like my brain loves that challenge. My body loves that challenge, and then it becomes fun. And I'm not saying I don't bitch out there. Gosh, any of you who have ran with me has Kev commiserated with me, especially when it's hot. But there's something about the difficult level of climbing that really speaks to me and really engages my brain, not just my body, but my brain. Um, and I'm gonna be a hippie, even my heart's some, and it makes it fun, it makes it feel right to me. So, I don't know, maybe I'm wired that way again. Again, childhood trauma, something, but I don't have this big like epiphany of like this is why I like climbing, or this is where I got better. My legs are strong. I continue to work out my legs pretty good. Um, my my legs are are are my are are my thing. Um But I also just like I like it. And I have gotten stronger on hills because I continue to go up hills and I continue to love them. So if you're a person who hasn't fallen in love with them, who really wants to do more out there, you've got to you've gotta do it. You've just gotta do it. Whether you take a friend, uh your dog, whatever it is, get out there and do it and try it. And then you know what? If you hate it, then you hate it. That's okay. Sometimes we hate things when we try 'em. Hey, at least you tried it. So um now, why we're we're almost done. I promise. Man, I didn't know I talked about Vert. I was thinking this is gonna be a 25-minute episode. I'm at 48 minutes, y'all. Um, but every time I get fired up for like a race, Vert is almost always a part of it. So like if you see a race and like there's not that fire, just let it go. Um, just don't. Just just just let it go. One thing that I do want to mention though is when it comes to these, not just vert races, but vert in general when you're doing it, I'm a person who actually gets faster as I get near the top, not slower. Um, because I am having so much fun out there. And I'm not saying you have to have that kind of fun, but that is one way to kind of key in on like how you're feeling about those climbs. If you're getting excited, and like maybe part of me is excited because I'm almost done if I'm like climbing to the top of like the canyon, but why like that Virk just keeps showing up that lights me up is like I can tell as I get close to the top, like I feel some sort of joy inside of me to like keep moving and it gets me moving faster. So I don't think it's about proving something for me. Like, I don't know, like I keep looking back at how competitive I was and how I used to like to win things all the time, and I don't know what it is, but like every time I see a Verdi race or a Verdi route, or like somebody invites me to go do something like Mount Or and I'm like, yes, like let's go do it. So whatever it is though, I mean that's my story. That's it. Like I don't have so like I said, there's no big thing out there that's like this is why I love it. Um, but I do love it. So um and I did, like, I was asked whenever whenever Kathna did ask me, like, ask me about numbers that scared me, ask me about vert vert miles, um, or ver or vert milestones that that like felt impossible, and I just don't have that story. I don't have a story of where it didn't feel like I could do it. I have stories of where things felt super hard. I mean I ran for five days straight, you know, like so but I don't have the story of where I felt like it was impossible. Um I just kept my legs moving um for all the reasons that I've said, and I'm still not even sure of the right reason. Um it was just never a thing that scared me. It was always fun, it was always hard, it was always humbling, but again, the fun. Um and I think that's worth saying out loud because a lot of people hear climbing and their stomach drops, and my mine just doesn't. It never really did. Well, what changed over time wasn't my wasn't the relationship I like had with climbing, it was my understanding of it. Uh learning to look at the race profiles, learning to train for what actually was in front of me, learning that if a race lights me up and there's a lot of vert, those two things are probably not a coincidence. Um and I didn't build a love for climbing. I just finally stopped being surprised that it was already there. Alright, y'all. Thanks for being here, spending time with me, listen to me ramble about vert. That was gonna be for 25 minutes and it's twice as long. Um, but if you love this episode, make sure you download it, follow the show, leave a rating or a review. I just paused to cough, you guys, man. And share this with a trail friend or a normal friend, because if you're if you're not a trail person, I'm assuming you might be normal. I don't know. What is normal really? But the more you share it, the more you download it, the more you rate and uh download these episodes, all that stuff, it helps us message meet you more and more people. Um, which is what I want to do. I want to help more and more people. I want to get my name out there more too. There's nothing wrong with that. So now go move your body, drink some water, stretch your calves, and if you're listening while running, loosen your shoulders. You're welcome. Good effort, positive attitude.