Episode 53: The Hill Is Not the Problem: A Tactical Guide to Uphill Running

A bunch of you have been asking me about running uphill, so this is the tactical episode I promised. I'm getting into what those grade percentages actually mean (so you know if a hill is legit steep or you're just making shit up in your head), why "runnable" is about you and that hill on that day and not the hill itself, and why your lungs staging a protest doesn't mean you're not an uphill runner. It just means you're not there yet. Plus actual workouts you can take with you, including treadmill versions, because it is HOT out there.

In this episode:

• The grade cheat sheet, from sneaky 2% grinders to hands-on-thighs steep
• My five rules for running uphill at easy effort, starting with don't auto-hike just because the trail tilted
• Why runnable vs. non-runnable can change between people, and even within the same run
• Sample VO2 max, tempo, and power hike workouts with treadmill options
• The "yet" mechanism and why easy hilly runs are your weapon

Links & Resources for This Episode

• Episode 17: The Ups and Downs of Trail Running: How to Move Efficiently on Every Hill
• Follow me on Instagram
• Visit my website: www.sunrisetrailscoaching.com
• Want to work together? Learn about 1:1 Coaching
• Free guide: What’s In My Pack? Download here

Transcript

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Hey all, welcome back to Dirt Nab Diaries. I'm your host, Brittany Olsen, Trailrunner, Women's Trail Running Coach, Hype Woman, and Professional Overpacker of the Midrun Snacks. This show is for the everyday trailrunner, the runs run training on real life legs and real life time. You've got work, relationships, laundry, pets, a group text that never shuts up, and maybe a big goal sitting quietly in the back of your head that you're not totally sure you're allowed to want. You're not out here chasing podium spots, you're chasing finish lines, sunrises, and maybe a little sanity. This podcast is about trail running, but it's also about navigating life. The hard seasons, the joyful ones, and the ones where everything feels like too much. So let's get into it. Alright, y'all. Uh personal life updates. I don't know, man. I'm still it's still hard being back, still still adjusting to real life. Um, running, been running at the Australias, the white tanks, um, on the road. Just keeping those legs moving until Moog 100. We had a super dusty morning. You might hear it in my uh in my voice. Uh, I was out there running, and when I when I was driving, I thought it was fog, and even in my headlamp, I was like, oh, that's kind of weird. But then as I realized it was dust, it was be it was no because I could not really breathe that well. So um I actually had a few runners today uh tell me they're like, oh my gosh, it was so dusty. So uh it was not it was not just me who noticed. So we have days like that here, especially because we don't get rain and wind and we're in a valley um compared to other places, so like the stuff just settles sometimes. So it wasn't smoke, it wasn't it. A couple glasses was smoke, but so I do sound a little off uh my voice, that might be why. Um but outside of that, training's going pretty well. Um it's it's hot here, it is that time of year though, so we expect it. I'm not saying it's fun. I don't take it lightly, but it is what it is. We have it every year. Um, but yeah, outside of that, really uh looking forward to uh just continuing this block of training and then taking a much needed off-season. That does not mean I stop running or lifting. It just means there's not a particular thing coming up for me. Um, so I can uh take a little bit of time away from the volume of running and um get back to uh doing some other things that I have put on the back burner. So that is typically how an ultra runner's life goes. You know, lots of training, lots of stuff going on with that, and then when you take an off-season, you get a little bit of time, step back and do some other things. So I am looking forward to that. But outside of that, things are same o samo, back to going to my beer night on Wednesdays, which is fantastic. It's the perfect midweek break. Um, softball will start again uh mid-September or so. So yeah, but let's get into this episode. Uh this one is going to be uh about uphill running. So it's a more tactical um episode, just so you know. But I've had uh a lot of my own athletes ask about uh getting better at running, or we're currently working on getting better at uh running uphill. And a lot of times when I have consults with people before they sign with me, uh one of the big things they typically mention is running uphill and running downhill too. Running uphill, um, it's not quite as delicate. And I've done an uphill and downhill running episode um prior to this, which I'll link in the show notes. But uphill, there is, it is more physical, so it's not, we'll go, we we don't have to worry about we don't have to worry about kicking rocks all the time on the trail. But there's not as much like that forward motion, that forward propulsion that happens as you're going downhill and leaning forward, you don't have that. However, whenever you're going uphill, your body starts, your your lungs and your heart especially start working a lot harder, quicker. Uh typically your glutes and your hamstrings will be working harder, quicker than um on flats or the downhill. Uh so you're just gonna feel it a lot quicker, which means you typically cannot run at an easy effort, even a hard effort for as long as what you can when you're going flat or downhill. So, but I mean, in fact, I sent an email out to my athletes recently uh with just some tips about uphill running and just said I would be recording an episode soon. And the emails I got back was like, yes, I can't wait to listen. Yes, so I decided to move this episode forward um and record this. So uh excited for that. But um, we're gonna talk uh what like why like to learn to run uphill at an easy effort. Not just not just in general, not just easy effort, but that's a big thing being able to run it at an easy effort. Like I have I have uh most runs are done at an easy effort. So a lot of the questions I get are like, I am trying to keep it an easy effort, but every time I'm starting to go uphill, I always have to hike. So there are things to do to work on that. So I will give a couple of actual workouts that you can do, uh, depending on your experience and background and all of that. I am not able to one-to-one program you through a podcast, but hopefully they give you some insights on how you can get better at that. Um, but we're also just gonna talk about what at the what grade actually means too. So when people are like, hey, this is a 2% grade, 5% grade, and not necessarily exactly like I'll give you the formula for how you you can compute grade, but um it's more about like what each grade like, hey, is this runnable? Is this like legit steep, or I'm just making shit up in my head, right? So we're gonna talk about that a little bit just so you know what those numbers mean. Um, why they can feel impossible at times just going up a hill. Um, how to actually run uphill, when when to run, when to start hiking, because you get out of that effort level, um, and when to push like during workouts too. So, and then again, like I said, I'm gonna give you some sample workouts. Uh, and then whenever uh it's time to push it. So uh hopefully this is a good one for you. I'm excited for it. Uh I love running uphill, I love hiking uphill, I love everything uphill. Um, but a lot of times I'll I mean, and I'll tell you some things that I've heard, like a lot of what it is that's like I can run some hills, others I can only walk. Running uphill is a struggle. My lungs feel like they're going to collapse. Um my heart feels like it's beating out of my chest. Uh every time I get to a hill, even if I went downhill or flat going towards it, I get to the bottom and all of a sudden I stop and hike right away and I can't get my momentum going. Um sometimes I'll start running uphill and then I have to stop and hike, and then I never start running again, even though I feel like I'm could, like I catch my breath and I could. So that's really what sparked uh this podcast episode, just so you know. Um, and like I totally get this. Uh last year I did DNF mode, but I did train for it, and then I trained for Coca Dona too. And there are lots of um uphills and lots of uphills in my training, and yes, there was gonna be a lot of hiking, so I did intentionally practice hiking, and we'll talk about that a little bit, because there is hiking and trail running. I swear that's why we love it. It's really not, it's the snacks is why we love it, but like there are reasons to practice hiking too for the uphill because of races that have a lot of uphill and people are unable to run the entire uphill. But there are also times where we could be running up that hill and we just don't. So, what what I mean is I I is I know how this feels. I mean, even right now, I did a uh easy hilly run today out at Australia, and the focus is to get to get about 150 to 170 feet of vert per mile in that run, um, to start mimicking what uh Moog does. And um, even like through that, even though I ran Co Godona, like she's well now, it's almost been it's been like three months ago. Um, that's crazy. But like it's still my my legs and lungs are feeling like yes, there was dust in the air, but you can still like even though I've been working on it for a while, you can still feel that work that you're doing sometimes, especially after I was gone for a bit and did more hiking than running. So it is normal to uh be breathing hard, it is normal to take some time to build up that fitness, but the important thing is being consistent with your runs. So, um, now I think one of the big things that I like to cover here, and I will cover throughout your run here, is like why we need to learn to run uphill um for it during an easy effort. Because again, I've mentioned earlier is most of our runs are at an easy effort, and then our workouts, our hard workouts, say VO2 max, um tempo runs, steady state runs, even endurance runs are a little bit above that easy effort. Um, a lot of those are built to help you so on race day you can run at an easy effort, or even an endurance effort, and be able to maintain that for longer and further and uphill even longer, too. Um, routes and races, uh, there might be routes and races that you're currently avoiding uh because you feel like they're off limits to you because you aren't a very good uphill runner or you don't feel very strong on the uphill. Um so definitely if you are avoiding things like not even races, just places to go because of the uphill, like it's gonna unlock more trails for you. You're gonna see more because going uphill you get some pretty awesome views. Um, so it's that's a great reason to want to learn or be better at the uphill. Uh race day durability is another one. Um the person who climbs at an easy effort at mile five still has legs at mile 20. Um so what I mean by that is, you know, there are and again, we're gonna hike sometimes when we when we run. We all know this. This is not something saying, hey, you have to run every single hill. But if you can learn how to get in that easy effort going uphill, especially early in a race or early in a long run, it means that you've done an easy effort on that and you should have plenty of um energy and muscle left when you're later into that run or that race. Uh, it helps like it it makes those legs stronger, and you're like, well duh, Brittany, but it really, really does. Like easy uphill running loads your glutes, your calves, your tendons, all those things in a way that flat running can't. So in flat running, we are doing work too, obviously, because like you have to propel yourself forward, but like uphill running, you are going, your your body wants to pull you back, right? So you are pushing forward, which means you are working those muscles much harder than you are anywhere else. Um, it also helps in that same way of building strength, but it also reduces your injury uh risk. Um, so for example, strides are uh little pushes in your run. Uh, and I always say, hey man, like do these uphill if you can, if not, do them flat. Um try not to do them on the downhill because it's more impact to your body. When you're going uphill, there's less of an impact, um, and you're still getting that that running economy that you're that you want to get, you're still working on your efficiency, but you're less prone to uh get injured by doing those uphill. So keep that in mind. Um, and also just confidence, like being able to run further uphill. I mean, I know the text I get when somebody like has finally ran up a hill or they've been trying to run for months, and just that confidence has grown so much, it's like, oh my gosh, like this does work, I can do this, all of that. Building that type of confidence, confidence is huge, especially um as you are going for maybe your first first like distance or first time at a certain distance. Um, you're coming back from injury, you are just coming back from time off, you are a new runner, all of that. Like building that confidence is huge. And lastly, really, the you know, what's in it for you? Like, why do I learn to run uphill at an easy effort? Well, a lot I said, a lot of you have told me you want to. Like that, it's just a want, it's a desire. Um, and I think that comes back to what I've said about confidence though, and building that strength and like being not quite as scared to go to certain places and run or sign up for certain races. Like, it all comes back to that desire and you want to. Like, I know, and I do have a couple of uh roadrunning athletes too, but I even have a couple trailrunning athletes who definitely prefer to do um flatter races, more runnable races, and there is nothing wrong with that. So if you're one of those people, totally cool. Um, you can still get something from this episode though, because running uphill, like I mentioned earlier, will help like load your glutes and your calves and your tendons and your hamstrings and all of that. Um, so it will help you, period. Uh even if you do prefer those flatter races, because you will be working on those muscles. Yes, as we get close to races, we are always more race-specific, but in the beginning of blocks, it's a great time to work on them. Um, in my off season, I like to work on those like things that I'm like, hey, this is this is what I want to work on. I like to do certain things in that off-season. That way I'm not focused on being race-specific at all. It's just more like, hey, I want to be a better uphill runner. Oh, my downhill sucks. Or man, I really struggle on the flats because I run up so much that the flats are kind of hard. So it's just knowing what you want to work on. So just so you know, and again, if you love climbing, this one's definitely for you. So and we'll talk this. We'll talk about a little bit of hiking too, because that's normal. Um, so next though, so we talked about kind of like why, why it's good to be able to run uphill in an easy effort. Um, and then let's just talk a little bit about grade. Um, I would actually I am gonna do a whole episode uh more than likely on um elevation and grades and and what it all means. Um, but this is one I wanted to hit because going uphill, sometimes you'll see a grade on a chart. Um, like a lot of races now have it where you can see the grades of the different parts of the charts. Um I don't know if all trails does now that I say that, but like you're just able to see it. Sometimes that could mean nothing to you. Um sometimes it means something, but when then when you see the actual elevation profile, the map, um, it's it's compressed. So the climbs look super big, even though it's like this is gonna be a 2% grade, and you're like, that looks real steep. Um, what are you talking about? Or sometimes they even elongate that elevation profile so it'll they the the it'll say like it's a 15% grade, but when you're looking, it looks very, very gentle. So it's just it's just a way for you to understand like what the what the percentages mean when you see them. And then just a little math for you that you don't have to remember. Um, so what is grade? So grade is actually like rise over distance. So what do I mean by ri rise? I mean the actual vert you're getting. So the feet you're going up and the distance is we'll say mileage in this instance. I really want to use kilometers, but I'm not gonna do that to you because I know people listening use feet for the most part. Um, but so rise over distance. So when you think about a mile, a hundred feet of climbing in a mile is about a two percent grade. So how is that math done? So remember I said it's a divided divide rise by run. So the rise is a hundred feet divided by five thousand two hundred eighty feet, which is how many feet are in a mile, and that equals um one point eight nine percent. Um, so it's it's we typically people round it up to two percent. That's all. So that is the math. So rise over run. Uh and then a lot of people what we will hear if you hear this, like the people will approximate a lot. Like, I just approximated that whole like two percent. So 50 feet per mile is about a 1% grade, 100 feet per mile is about a 2% grade, 500 feet per mile is a 9.5% grade, right? So that's a that's a pretty steep climb. So just keep that in mind. You don't have to do all that math. I do like to use just kind of the estimates because trails are estimates, y'all. You're gonna be like, hey, I'm going out for two-ish hours for 2,000 feet of gain, 2,000-ish feet of gain, right? We're normally ish, so that's what that's okay. It's okay to smudge that just a little bit up. Um, but when you think about okay, oh my gosh, it's like 500 feet, that sounds like a lot. It is that's like nine and a half to ten percent. So that is a pretty steep grade, but I'm gonna break them down for you. So one to three percent. Some some people say like I can't even feel it that much. I will say one percent doesn't feel like a whole lot typically for me now. Two to three percent, you should feel it a little bit. Um, and your body's gonna feel it too, especially if you're doing it for a sustained period of time. It can get sneaky on you. That's a little bit of a sneaky punchy thing. Now it's not really a punchy climb, but over time it starts to feel like one of those punchy climbs that's steeper. Um 4-6% is you're definitely feeling that. It's it's like you're you're gonna see it before you get there. You're gonna know there's a hill coming up for you. Um, it's runnable for a lot of people at an easy effort, if you slow down a bit, and if you've been working on it. If you are a brand new runner, or if you are brand new to trails and have always run flats, uh coming back from injury, all those things I mentioned before, it might not be runnable in that moment to you, but it will become runnable as you do it. So just but this one is like you are definitely gonna see see when when when you're coming towards it. So as you get up into those um other areas too, and just so you know, there are climbs out there that we do, even at at white tanks, they get up to like 20 to 30 percent, and those are steep. Um, but as you get into that seven to ten percent and ten to fifteen percent, those are getting steeper and steeper. Um, you will see a lot of people um hiking, um, especially as they get into that 10%. But seven, we'll say seven to ten percent, it's it is some run-like territory for some of us, um, but there's probably a hiking strategy in there too. This also depends on how long the race is or the run is that you're doing. Um, and like again, we're staying if we're staying in an easy effort, you want to pay attention to how you're breathing, right? Easy efforts, you should be able to talk the entire time. So if you were in a training run, or even if you're a race and the goal was to take those hills easy, you need to be able to talk the entire time. So when you feel yourself running up these steeper 7 to 15% um grades, you definitely like want to pay attention to how you're breathing. Um, but again, if you are having if this is a totally easy run, make sure you're staying at that effort level. If you're racing and your goal is to stay in that endurance um uh effort, which is a little bit higher than easy, you still want to be able to pay attention to how you're breathing. Um, because if you were at mile five um and this is a 50k, you've got a lot of running left to do. So you want to make sure not to blow up. But you should have your strategy ahead of time. But either way, 7 to 15%, you're gonna get you're gonna in that run hike category. The 10, especially that 10 to 15% range. A lot of people, this is where a lot of people will see the hill and they're just like, nah, like I'm I'm good. I'm not even gonna like I'm just gonna hike the whole thing. Those still can be runnable. I'm not saying the entire thing is runnable, but you can learn to run up some of it when you get out of your effort level that you're supposed to be in, um, start hiking, and when you catch your breath back, you can start jogging again. Because you don't have to just hike the entire hill just because you stop once. Um, I when I was doing my hilly workout today, there were times where I stopped and I hiked, and then I was like, oh, I can run again, and then you run again for a little bit, and then like I had to stop a couple times. That's just how it is some days. But it is how you get better. If you continuously hike, you're not training your legs to move, and legs, lungs, or heart to move faster whenever you're out there at that effort level. So then we get to that 15% and up, man, you get to that 20% and up. I mean, there's some 30% climbs that are freaking nuts. Um, this is where like the hands are going on the thighs. Um, you may have poles with you. Um, it can just it's definitely a lot hiker. And it's a lot of lot hiker. There's a lot more hiking in this. So it's definitely typically uh hiking is gonna be faster than you can run it. Um, so if you try to run it, a lot of times your legs will die very quickly, um, or you're really not moving that quickly, and it's better to power hike up a lot of those. Um now uh they may see some elites running up there. You may see some of those everyday people running up on those 15% and up, but it does start to get really steep and really hard. Then like I said, when you hit 20%, I mean it it is you're feeling that. So this is not a how to use your polls uh podcast, but like this is where, especially if I have a race coming up, we're gonna be using polls. I mean, I'm taking those poles on my long run so I can practice with them. Um and also just so when I get to those steep grades, I can I can use them. So that is a general rough thing about grades. Um maybe that taught you something, maybe it didn't, but hopefully you're not out there kicking kicking your own butt because you're on a 15% grade and you're like, I'm hiking a lot of this. Um completely normal. Also, no, a lot of treadmills max out around 10 to 15%. Just so you know. Uh, fun fact. Um, and there's a reason for that because you're not normally um, first of all, you're not normally going I don't want to say always, it depends what race you're doing, but you're not expending all your time on 10 to 15% grades. Also, it can get dangerous on a treadmill to raise it up too high. So. Um, and just so you know, like when I mentioned that annoyingly long but not steep hill, I think that deserves a call out. Uh because nothing about it's gonna look scary on a profile typically, except like I said when they're compressed or the they're elongated, it looks it's gonna be just confusing to see. That's why I always say look check out for the check the grades um for races, because the pictures are not always it doesn't always depict what you're actually gonna see out there. Um but when you see those annoyingly long but steep climbs, you know, that can be a 2% or that can be up to like 5%. Um it will absolutely eat you alive. Uh first of all, because we want to make sure if you haven't trained for that, that would be why. But even if you train for it, a lot of times at races we can go out a little bit too hard because we get excited. Um, and that's where we need to make sure we're focusing on effort. So I will probably remind you of this episode several times to focus on effort uh because it is important here, because it is tiring to go uphill. It is it is a different kind of tire than downhill. Downhill, you're really focusing on stabilizing with your lower body, your quads are working, but typically your lungs and your heart are not working nearly as much as they did on the uphill. So just something to keep in mind. So people and when I say, hey, like we can all run that two to three percent, like that's something we one of the first things we can we will we will be better at. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that it can still be a hard grind because you are still going uphill. Sometimes those climbs will go for miles, and you don't want to overdo it for those. So that becomes more of a mental game to me, uh, more so than a leg game, because you're just like, shit, like I went out a little too hard. Um, I need to I need to back off a little bit. And then sometimes in those moments too, our ego starts to take over, so we keep pushing a little bit to keep our legs moving just above a shuffle, uh, instead of just being like, you know what, I went a little hard, let me hike for a bit. Um, so just just keep it in mind. Um, I have done that uh before, especially on a race uh course that I've known, and I felt like I had it. It was mesquite canon fifty K. Um, and that was when I was having some ankle issues, so maybe I shouldn't have ran that anyway. But um there's a part in there That you get actually some really nice um downhill in the beginning. You don't get a whole lot of downhill at that race, by the way. Um, and there's another part that I know so well, and the grade has got to be like three percent at most, maybe four, maybe, but like it it hits the two percent too. And I remember I was just talking to a woman, and I could tell that I was like, I'm trying I'm trying to keep up with her, and I knew it, and I kept trying to keep up with her. Um, and in the moment I was just thinking, oh, I'm just chatting with her, and it's nice, but it really was a little bit of ego. Eventually, like it took me about probably about seven or eight minutes, and I was like, you know what, let her go. And I was like, and I was just like, okay, like I was like, I'm gonna back off a little bit, see you later. So that woman got second or third place, I can't remember, I think she was from Utah, um, and she crushed it. And um, yeah, I just I just stayed back. That did not kill my race, by the way. Uh that was just more of an example of like, hey, it happens. Um, and while I need to, what I should have been doing is focusing on my breathing, and as soon as like I needed to, I should have just slowed down. No big deal. So that's just something for you. Um, so I mentioned a little bit about runnability about those grades, but um, let's think about like what is runnable, what is what is non-runnable. And there are things right now that you will not be able to run up potentially. That doesn't mean they're not runnable overall. Just right now, they're not runnable for you. So when I'm talking about runnable versus non-runnable now, it's more general on like how how uh not just like for who you are, but people in general, like what's really runnable and what's really not. Um, so just so you know, like whenever, say example, like it's an 8% grade, right? Kind of like right in the middle there of what we talked about. It can be runnable for one person, um, it could be a run hike for another, and it could be a full hike for someone else. Um, and all three of those people can be training correctly. Um, and they can be training how they want. There could be somebody who hasn't has had injuries um for a variety of reasons, and they have to take hills slowly because they want to keep running, um, but because of whatever they have going on, like they have to hike those and they know them, and so that's what they do. Um, there are some people who uh don't really care to get better or and faster at running uphill, and that's okay too. There's really nothing wrong with that. Running is your own thing, so you get to pick how you want to treat it. Um there are some people who love running uphill. Hi, me. Um, and so certain things are just easier and runnable for people, especially when you're enjoying them. Like if you get to a hill and you hate it every time and you're cursing it, mentally it's very hard to push through that. So I will encourage you, try not to curse the hill too much, except when you're on it, because I do occasionally. But like if you already have it in your mind that you hate it and you hate climbing, it's gonna be it is actually really hard to overcome that physically then, because your mind's already saying, I hate this and I don't want to do it. So uh pro tip, try not to go in hating the hill, hating the mountain, because it really does impact how you run. So, and also know with these runnable and non-runnable spots, like sometimes it changes within a run, not just within a grade, but within a run. Like, you might cruise a hill at mile two um that felt like it was completely unrunnable at mile 18. Uh and you're like, oh well, that's later, of course it is. You can also do the opposite. There are times when, man, if for whatever reason it takes me 30 or 40 minutes to to warm up, who knows what's going on that day. Um, and like going uphill feels impossible at more than a hike, and then all of a sudden the legs finally let go, and around that two and a half hour mark, like I'll see, I'll get to another hill and I can run up it, you know, at an 8% grade. Sometimes it can change. So why am I telling you this? Well, it's the same hill, it's just a different you. Uh, it could be heat, it could be altitude, it could be um how much I've eaten, it could be how tight my legs were in the beginning. Uh maybe I took a fall during that run. There's so many things that can change between making a hill run runnable and unrunnable for you. So keep it in mind because some people will get down and be like, man, I just ran this one today, or I just ran this one last week and this week I'm not. There are so many factors contributing to the to how you're doing. So the big thing is being consistent with your training and letting your coach know um that you want to work on uphill running um and and why you want to work on it. Uh, and then also like making sure you're signing up for races that are really indicative of what you want to do. So, wow, that pro tip came in early. It was gonna come later. There it is. Um, but anyway, um, but there's also things like with runnable and non-runnable too, like you may get a race report from a friend who's a very strong climber, and they're like, ah, it's totally runnable. That's their report, that's their floor, that's not yours. So that may not be runnable for you, and that's okay. Like, that is completely fine. Um, so and it's okay too, like, if you know your friend's a strong climber um when and they were running, like that's good information after because they may be like, oh yeah, it's totally runnable, but you're like, okay, like but this person's a stronger runner than me. You also can have friends too who are like, that run that hill totally kicked my ass at this race, or man, that long run, these two hills got me. Um, but you know that they don't run as strong as you do uphill. So that's just data though. You can take that, you can still listen to the data from them. It's not, it's not gonna like hurt you as long as you can take it as just a data point for somebody. As long as you're not sticking it in your brain, you're thinking, oh my god, this is gonna be harder, oh my god, this is gonna be easier. Ah, like whatever it is, you're the one who is is gonna define if that's runnable or not runnable for you. Okay. So the goal of hill training is not to make every hill runnable either. Um, it's to move your line forward, your ceiling up. Um, so the hills that used to force a hike become optional hikes, and optional hikes become runs. Um, so again, it's not to make every single hill runnable, though. One of my goals that I work with, and this is more of a mental one for my athletes, and not just mental for my athletes, mental for anybody who's doing it, but they totally stop running before they even start the hill. Like they see it and they just stop. A big goal for me is just to be like, hey, when you hit the hill, like just keep going. Um, add an easy effort. Don't be pushing it, but like just keep going. Um, because that is very difficult to um just stop at the bottom hill and start hiking, and then also be like, wait, uh, I can still run right now. And then it's it's it is very hard to get going because you've already mentally stopped yourself and physically stopped yourself. So um, but again, it's up to you. It's what where your where your ceiling is for those runs. Um, if you want to raise that up, that's where you can work on the uphill running. Um, and where you're at today, that's that's that's just another data point. It's a starting point, it's not the verdict. So, yes, you might be somewhere today and you're like, this really sucks. And guys, right now it's summer, and I don't know where y'all live, but summers are hot here right now. They are actually humid right now. You know, I've got athletes in Alabama and or sorry, Georgia, uh, Virginia, Florida, who are who deal with humidity, like crazy humidity, so everything feels heavier. So even at this time of year and you're working on hills, um, it can feel even heavier than normal because of just the temperature. So keep it in mind too, don't kick your own ass um just because like you're like, oh my god, like in November I could do this hill better. You probably could because the weather was better. But when you are doing work in the heat, even, it's gonna really show up as that weather cools down because your body has been pushing not only through the uphill, but through the the heat and humidity too. So just remember where you're at today does not necessarily mean like that's a verdict for you. Um, and know that you might feel like shit sometime in the summer, and then when you get to beautiful weather, like your body's just gonna like feel amazing. So I always try to think about that, especially here when it does get so hot, of like this training is going to make me even more badass whenever it cools down here because my body has been working through some of the hardest of the hard. So hopefully that helps. Yay. Alright, but why do hills feel so hard, even impossible at times? So I've talked a little bit more, uh a little bit about how that uphill work, it costs more energy at the same at the same pace, same eff like, especially like if you're focused on pace over effort, full stop. So if you are trying to maintain the same pace you were on the downhill or the uphill, like you're gonna use a lot of energy and a lot of unnecessary energy is being used then. Um but know that your heart rate and your breathing respond to effort. So easy uh effort uphill means dramatically slower than feels reasonable, probably. So if you are trying to keep that same pace, you everything's gonna go up, right? So you are not going to be able to run up that hill for very long. Um it well, and let me let me be clear, if you are running at a pace that is not sustainable for the uphill. So typically your downhills, not always, depending on how steep and they are, but your downhills and flats are at least a little bit faster than your uphills. I caveated that, I'll caveat it again because nobody feels bad. Some downhills are super technical, chunky, steep, so you are not moving down them very fast. I know I've been there, but in general, a lot of times downhills and flats can be faster than the uphills. So this is why we focus on effort so you're not using a whole bunch of more energy by trying to keep that pace. Um, so focus on that effort, focus on your breathing, make sure you can talk the entire time as you're running uphill. I actually send voice messages sometimes when I'm going uphill to people. So it's something I run a lot of solo, so it helps. Um, but different muscles do the work. All right, so hills shift the load, so uphill shifts the load to your glutes, uh your hamstrings. You get some calf work in there too. So how does that impact you? Well, first of all, your um glutes and your hamstrings, those are big muscles, those are large muscle groups, and you want to be working them on the uphill. You want to be pushing through like your your midfoot and pushing up towards towards um towards the top of that hill, through your hips, which goes through your glutes, and then through your hamstrings. That's how you want to be pushing. I'm saying you're using your calves, but I'm I am focused, I'm gonna focus on the calves just for a minute because you should not be up on your toes and using the full muscle of your calves to get to the top of that hill. Sorry, I decided to pause to sneeze really loud twice. Um, but I believe I was talking about calves and going uphill. So when you get onto your toes and you're going uphill, you are putting a lot of pressure on your calves, which then puts a lot of pressure on your Achilles, which then puts it on the ankle, the posttib, the f the bottom of the foot, all of that. So, and you're that means you're also using smaller stabilizing muscles, which are used for the for the downhill and balance more than anything. So, do not first, so don't get up on your toes, whether you're hiking or running, because that does not help. First of all, it just you're not using the right muscles, so you're not gonna get the best bang for your buck on that. Um, and then secondly, you can you could you can definitely um you're more risk for injury by doing it that way, especially if you're doing a lot of uphill. You are going to you would notice that your calves and your chillies, you're just gonna notice a lot more pain in those areas. Um, you're gonna be sore for more days. Those muscles are used for stabilizing in the uphill. Like you will see people's calves muscle on uphill, but but that is not the primary like thing that is being used. Like if you're up on your toes, you're not doing it right. So you should be pushing through that that midfoot. Um, or even like a little bit of like above the midfoot. It just depends on your on your running stride. Um, but you should not be up on your toes. Okay. So when you are not up on your toes and you're pushing through, you will be using those major muscles uh the most, the hamstring and the glutes, which are gonna get you going forward. Um, but again, if you're uh if you're on your calves, you're gonna blow yourself up even earlier. Uh so a lot of times people's legs will give out before their their lungs, and sometimes it's the lungs before the legs. Typically, what I see when legs give out is either they're a little bit weak because they're um newer to running, they're newer to strength training. Yes, strength training guys, do it. It is so important for running, so important for life, but very important for uphills. Um, but the legs will give out because they aren't strong enough. Like that can happen. Um, for me, it's the opposite, my lungs will give out before anything. Um, but that just what we do is we take all that as data too. So say you are going uphill and you were noticing, man, my calves like kind of hurt right now. Well, more than likely on your toes. So you need to work on not being on your toes. Uh the other part might be you might be going uphill and you're just like, holy shit, man, my butt is burning. Well, that's your glutes, and by the way, that's is what you should be using, so yay, you're using the right muscle. Um, and that could just be data being like, alright, like, hey, like, I need to get my glutes stronger, so I need to work more on the uphill, and I need to do my squats. And there are other movements too, but we're just gonna say squats for now, uh, because this episode could be five hours long when we start talking about strength training in uphills. Um, so but you're using the right muscles when that happens. So uh also, I mean, you can be running uphill, and this is what I hear more of is is the breathing than I hear about the lungs. I feel like most, if not all of my athletes are pretty avid lifters, um, or they're consistent lifters, so that they tend to have very strong legs, but it's the lungs that start to give out for them. Um, so how do you get better at that? Well, that's that's a lot of running, right? Like, but that is like doing easy efforts uphill, doing hard workouts uphill, raising your VO2 max, raising your lactate threshold. We will get to those workouts in just a little bit. Um, but doing that those workouts, the harder workouts, will help boost that aerobic and anaerobic capacity. Um, and then also those easy runs. That's again, that's what I'm that's why I did it. It was an easy hilly run, and you work on that uphill, you just focus on using the power and the physicality that you have, add an easy effort to go uphill. And then you go uphill for as long as you can and stay in that effort level. And once you get it out of that effort level, because sometimes it happens unintentionally, um, because you're going uphill, you slow it down, or you drop it down to a hike because you are you definitely need to like get get back to that easy effort. Sometimes it just ends up being a hike, which it happens. Sometimes they both feel like they're about to give it at the same time. The glutes are burning, the hamstrings are being felt, uh, and your lungs are like, you're like, wait, I can't talk to anybody. That happens too. Um, sometimes it just means we need to strengthen some stuff and work work a little bit harder on the aerobic. Sometimes it just means it's just one of those days, you know? So, but again, take all of this as data. Um, just because a something is hard doesn't mean you suck at it. I mean, you could suck at some things. I suck at some things that I've got to work on, but like it just is a it's just a point. That's it. It's just another little point on that data line that you have for yourself. Um, and it just is like, hey, if you have a coach, you can be like, hey, like I did this run and this week it felt similar to last week, and we're doing these this workout, and I thought I'd feel better. Well, it can take, it can take a little bit of time, y'all. Like you should start feeling within a month typically, but it can take three to six months to really like see the impact of all that work you're doing. Lest there there are some immediate results, don't get me wrong, some pretty quick results, especially if you're not doing any hill workouts now or you're newer to them, but over time you're going to see them in a big way, and it will probably surprise you just a little bit. Um so also one thing that I mentioned or that I hear is like people like there are times when I'm hiking and it feels fucking hard. Like it doesn't feel easy, and I'm just hiking. Well, every grade has an effort floor. So if the hill is steep enough, it can still like it can still be hard to be in that easy, easy effort. Um, so how do you stay in that easy effort? Again, it's really there's no way for me to be like, hey, in your ear, be like, hey, you're breathing hard, hey, you're breathing hard, but you need to be able to have a conversation through that. Also note, just because you're breathing a little bit harder does not mean you're not in your easy effort either. I was going uphill today and I was like, I could tell I was breathing a little hard, but I was like, I can still talk. Like if I was with somebody, I could I could at least chat with them. Um so I was like, you know what, I think I'm on the edge of my easy effort, but I am still within that easy effort. So don't automatically back off just because you're breathing a little bit harder. An easy effort range, how I do it, is two to five. Um, RPE, two to five, rate of perceived exertion. I've done an episode on that too. Um, so like there are sometimes where I'm on the edge of that five. Um, and that's what I'm holding on to. And then if I feel it bump into that six, that's what I'm like, okay, slow it down or hike um to get to that. But again, like with hiking, if you feel like you're at like a six when you're hiking, you still need to back off because you don't want to push your body too hard because that makes recovery longer. Um again, it could open you up to injury, even though you're like, it's just hiking. Well, there are reasons you have an easy effort run in your schedule. And that also means doing easy effort hiking too. Um, so but this is why like you have to think about okay, like, what hills can I run? What hills can I walk like right now? Like, what can I do? Well, what am I doing right now where I'm running? And then also think about like where do you want to go? Do you want is it is your goal, the hill that you're walk that you already know you're walking, is your hill, is your goal to run that hill more or to run that hill completely? Do you have a goal of a hill that you're running now at an easy effort? Do you have a goal of hey, you know what, like I want to get up this a little bit faster at the same effort? That is still something that you can work on with hill work um and continuously doing some easy effort hill runs. You do not do easy effort hill runs all the time, by the way. That will also make your body very unhappy. Like, there has to be definitely some structure to what you're doing. Um, but it is good like to know, okay, like this is a hill I can walk, this is a hill I can run, this is some things that I'm thinking about doing. Because when you know where you want to go, it does help know how to program um your runs for you. And also program your strength too, and you can look at your strength and make sure you're doing the things you need to do to strengthen those hamstrings, those those glutes, even those calves, even though you don't want to turn your tippy toes, you still want to have calf muscles out there. So, um, so just remember like think about how I talked about the running runnable section, how like you have that baseline. Um, and then what we can do is we can move that runnable section, that runnable grades, we can move up up that line with doing consistent work and with doing some hard workouts in there. But this goes the same for almost anybody. Breathing hard on hills is pretty universal. Um, and I'm not saying again, you shouldn't be breathing like you're at an effort level of nine, don't get me wrong, but it is typically so normal when you start to go up till to breathe harder. That doesn't mean you need to stop, that doesn't mean you even need to hike. It means you need to stay within that effort level. Um, and then sometimes that can take a couple times of doing a hill of a of an easy hill run to figure out how to stay in that easy range, and that's okay. You don't have to be perfect. And that was one of my things when I first started trail running and had a coach for the first time of trying to be in the right effort level. I felt like I was trying to nail that perfection so much and not really enjoying the run so much anymore. So it's finding that, and once you find out that easy effort for lack of a better word, it makes things easier. Like it does because yes, you want to be intentional with how you're running, but once you figure out your effort levels, you don't have to think about it as much because your body and brain are connected then. So, but the goal here is like don't worry about if you are breathing harder on the uphill. That is normal. Make sure you stay within the effort level that's prescribed to you, which is typically easy outside of workouts. So now, how do you do this? I mentioned a few of these, just these are just a few. I these, in my opinion, very like basic rules, um, but it's how exactly I would coach my people too. So don't auto-hike when that grade changes. Rule number one. I mentioned that earlier. Keep running until you're actually at that edge of easy. Not just because the trail tilted. Rule number two. Oh, talking the is is all about is what it's all about. Yeah, like I'm doing right now. No. But if you can't talk in sentences, you're going too hard. Uh easy on a hill might feel embarrassing s embarrassingly slow to you, maybe. I mean, I don't think you should be embarrassed, but I'm also not going to invalidate your feelings of being embarrassed because sometimes it does. It's like, man, like I've been running for years. Why is this hill doing this to me? Um, but remember that the whole goal is to keep, especially when we're doing an easy run, you should be able to talk in sentences. And you will get better. You will be able to run further for longer. Because we're also going to talk about what workouts to throw in there to get that, to get you to that uh two outside of easy runs. Uh, rule number three, this is a big one. I actually talked about this uh, I think in my uphill running clinic I ran earlier this year. Shorten your stride. We do not want to over stride. We do not want a big stride. We want that center of gravity, right? Whenever you start to lengthen your stride, um, which makes your feet actually move slower, you can, first of all, you're not getting all that power from your glutes, so your booty and your hamstrings that I talked about. You are going to use more of those lower muscles, those calves, Achilles, all of that down there to be propelling yourself forward. So you're not gonna get the power you need, uh, which means first of all you're gonna be slower, but you're also again opening up to yourself to more entry risk. So small steps, keep your posture like tall. You can you'll you'll be leaning forward just a little bit, and eyes ahead, not on your shoes. I'm gonna say that about downhill running too. Downhill running, you look a little bit further ahead, but don't just stare at your shoes, like look ahead at the train that's coming at you. So you can make sure you make the right step, especially when you're running because you are moving faster, and when you kick a rock, you can. Land harder. So um a slow shuffle is going to be power striding anytime. So shorten your stride, quicken your feet. Rule number four hike with intention. When you need to hike, actually hike. Maybe put your hands on your thighs to help you push off. Maybe you've got your poles on you. Make sure you're digging in with your triceps. Whatever you have, hike with intention. Settle into that easy RPE. My uh coach puts it in my notes as hey, don't lollygag. And I know what she means by that. You know what? Like, hey, stay in the effort level, but you're not out here just like not tapping your poles and not really using them. Like you are out there and you are digging the fuck in. Like that's what you do. So you are hiking with intention. Hiking is a gear, not a red stop. So it might be a little bit lower gear, right? But hike with intention. Alright, rule five. You can start running in mid-climb. This is something I actually see a lot of. And I have been guilty of doing it myself. Maybe you even jogged up part of the climb, you're in your easy effort, felt great. Uh, and then you're like, okay, like I maybe you hit a steeper spot, maybe it's just more, hey, I've been running up this hill for a bit and I'm getting out of my easy effort. And you slow down a little bit, then you're like, nope, I gotta hike. Then you hike, and you've caught your breath, you could actually go again, and you just stay in that one hiking mode. If you reset and you feel like you are able to, it is okay to start running in mid-climb. Again, that's what I did today. I've done it during races. It is okay to start running again. In fact, I will encourage it. Um, hiking one section of a hill is not a commitment to hike the whole hill. Run, hike, run is a legit strategy. Like, that's and sometimes you don't always know when that's gonna happen, right? So you can have your you can even have a long run strategy, but you can have a race day strategy, and you can know there's a hill coming up. And your brain, you can still tell yourself, you know what, I'm gonna run some of this, but I'm gonna hike some of this, and then I'm gonna run some of it. So mentally, you can already prepare yourself for that hill that's coming up, and tell yourself that's what you're gonna do. And do it. And that doesn't mean you're gonna like, I'm gonna run for five minutes, hike for five minutes, run for five minutes. That's not how it always happens when you're out there because sometimes you hit a hill and you don't know how your body's gonna be feeling. Um, the temperatures could be hot, the temperatures could be perfect. There are so many different factors there that impact how you're gonna do on that hill or that mountain. So just make sure though you're telling yourself, giving yourself permission to run, hike, run. Run, hike, run, hike, run, hike, whatever it is, but give yourself that permission to start up again. Because I see that a lot where once they stop running, they just stop and they hike the rest of the thing and won't take off again until there's a downhill or a flat. Even though they have said they're like breathing has settled down and they could start up again. So that's kind of a mindset shift, I think. Um I know it's a physical thing too, but I do feel like there's definitely it's a mindset thing with that part of it. Um, but also, this is not really a rule, it's just kind of a thought. We'll call it a pro tip again. Um, but stop measuring hills by whether you ran the whole thing. Measure them by whether you stayed at that easy effort. So I know I keep bringing up easy effort, most of our runs are at that, but whenever you are focused on just a hill, whether it's an easy hilly run, whether you have hills on your long run, it's an easy long run, measure it by whether you stayed in that easy effort. Because if you stayed in that easy effort, you have been successful. If you start, if you run, hike, and then you don't run again, it doesn't mean you failed. But like if you feel the need to run again, think about that. Use that as a data point. They'll be like, you know what? I kind of stayed in the easy effort, but I also kind of went below my easy effort because I kept hiking. So, but measure what you're doing by effort rather than if you ran the whole thing. And then when you run the whole fucking thing, celebrate. Like, you're gonna get there where if you have picked a hill you want to run and you want to do the work, um, barring, injury, other things that can happen out there. But if there's something you want to work on, like getting uphill, there's work to do. And you can you can get up that hill, and then we celebrate. And then we will celebrate that you ran the whole goddamn thing. Okay. Couple more sections here, guys. Sorry, like I I I really get excited about hill running. It is it is one of my strengths, and I love it. Um, it's why I normally pick hilly races. But um, why are easy why are easy hills, like, why can they be I don't know if I want to call them a secret weapon, but why can they be a weapon? They don't have to be a secret. Um, you get the stimulus without the damage. Um, I talked about this earlier, how like running downhill there's an impact. Um running uphill, there's impacts too, but it's not like your body slamming against the ground because you don't have to have that same control as you do with the downhill or even the flats. So you get strength, you get tendon durability, um, you get aerobic work in one run, and at a recovery cost, your body can absorb week after week. So I think I mentioned recovery is so important. Whenever you're doing easy hill runs like that, you are getting all these things, the strength, the durability, the aerobic work, all of that. And then you get a little bow on top that says you can also recover from this. It's easier to recover from this, which is fantastic. So you can absorb all that fitness, you can recover and all of that, and be ready to keep moving. So that's huge. Repetition teaches pacing. You can't learn easy effort climbing from a workout once a month. You learn it from easy hills one to three times a week, depending on what you're working on. So I think I have hilly runs two or three times a week right now, but I also have a hilly race coming up. So, but you can't just do it once a month. You can't go up a hill and do it once a month. Another thing about this too is like when I say repetit repetition, um, if you sign up for a lot of races, it is very hard to work on on anything for the most part, but especially hills. And you're like, wait, why can't I work on things? Well, if you are racing once a month, once every couple weeks, um, a lot of time is spent in recovery rather than actually building something. Whether it's building your aerobic capacity, um, just to run, uh, whether it's building how to, or whether it's working on running uphill, whether it's working on running downhill, um, whether it's working on getting faster on the flats, whatever it is your work you want to work on, it is much harder when you are racing a lot. I'm not gonna tell you not to race, um, but if you have gaps in between your races, it is helpful. If you want to work on hills, because um, in my opinion, a lot of times you should sign up for a race that you're on a f on fire for, but also that has hills in it, so you have that goal out there too. So I'm not saying, and again, I'm not a person, I just don't race a lot either. And sometimes you do sign up for a couple races that are close together because of the ones you really want to do, and that's okay. But what I'm saying is when it comes to wanting to work on something, um, this is not a secret recipe either. It is better if you have some space in between those races so you can actually work on things instead of focusing on recovery. Alright. Over the weeks, there is some magic though. It does. When you start doing this, and again, I could say it takes three to six months to, I feel like to see sometimes when you get to that wow factor, you're gonna start seeing results. You will. Um, quicker than that. But really, there's gonna be one day when all of us in that hill that used to f that used to like hike, there was no way you were running up it, all of a sudden you're running up. Maybe not the whole thing, maybe half of it, maybe three quarters, maybe a quarter, wherever you're at. But you have been able to run something that you were able to hike. Like, and it and for me, I know a couple hills that I've ran up, and all of a sudden I'm like, holy shit, that happened. Like, and it's not that I hadn't worked on it, but it's very weird because all of a sudden you're like, wow, that wasn't that bad. Holy cow. And be proud of yourself when that happens, because it will happen. Also, this is I'm gonna give you the the yet mechanism. Um so people, a lot of people like, I just not an uphill runner. Add yet to that. I'm not an uphill runner yet. That might sound silly, um, but it actually is a mental like thing that helps you out by saying that. Like, I'm not an uphill runner yet. Um, so why is that important to you? Like, why does that help easy hilly runs like be be like that weapon for you? Because you can't really get better at easy runs or even hilly runs. That doesn't have to be easy, just a hilly run in general, with thinking that like I'm not an uphill runner. I'm not an uphill runner. So saying I'm not an uphill runner yet is that mental component that you need. Or you can simply say I'm a runner. Like that's it. That's all you have to say. You don't have to say anything, you don't have to say I'm I'm not an uphill runner. I can just say like I'm a runner, period. And that's all you have to end with. But it's a good thing to tell yourself because a lot of us feel that way. We don't feel like a runner whenever we're out there hiking. Um, now I know plenty of people who also they're like, I love to hike, it's part of the run. But we also know that there's times too where it's just we just want to do a little bit better than what we've been doing, or you want to do a lot better. Maybe we've been running and we've been fine for like two or three years. I know plenty of people like this, and then we're kind of like out there, it's like, you know what? I'm ready to push something, let's do something new. And hills tend to be the thing that I hear the most about. So that's why Izzy Hilly runs are are a weapon for you. Um, all right, so now we've got the sample workouts. Yay! Yeah, free workouts, right? So it depends where you're at again, any of your training. These are just sample ones. I can't tell you where you're at. I don't know, because I don't know. But I'm gonna give you a couple different different ones um for different reasons. So, um, I've already talked about the the easy easy hilly run. This is not really part of the sample workouts, you know, 45 to 60 minutes on a rolling route. Um, every step is conversational. It depends where it's at. Um, you know, it can be rolling. I go out to Australia, Desert Rose, where it if you ever see my map, it's a plus sign. Um, and you go up and over one side and up and over another, like it's just a hilly route. So I always do try to be very intentional with routes for an easy run like that. That's 45 to 60 minutes. Um also if you are on a treadmill, um, it depends on how you want that to uh look for you. But typically a treadmill version of this, and yes, treadmills do help. Don't you worry about that, they do. Um, you can do say it's a 45-minute workout. You can do five minutes, say at like a one to two percent grade, doing like a little kind of like warming up, but what we want to do, we're gonna try to mimic some rolling hills. Um, you're gonna do then five minutes at like a four to six, all at an easy effort. So that is just one sustained like run. There is no like interval in there, that's just an easy run. I'm giving the treadmill options, y'all, because first of all, I know it's hot. Sometimes we're just all getting up so early we want to sleep in. Um, and also a treadmill is a great tool to have and use if you want to, and it'll keep keep you running, especially when you're just tired of the heat. So, uh workout workout uh the real so the I didn't include that in my sample workout the first one because I've been talking about these easy hilly runs the whole time. The other another workout is more of a VO2 max. This is where you're pushing pretty hard. Um, I do at this point in my running, I do two VO2-max workouts when I'm in that block. This is normally at the very beginning of a training block, by the way. Um, but you would do a warm-up, and then depending on where you're at, I start out at 12 by one minute uphill, VO2 max, so RP of around nine is where I start, so the effort level of nine. So I warm up, say 15 or so minutes, just depending on what it is. Run uphill for a minute, VO2 max, your run equals your rest. So you do a one minute back down. So I run uphill, then I jog downhill and catch my breath, then I do it again. If you are brand new to this, um if you are coming off of injury, uh, if you've never done a workout before, you know, do 10 by 30 seconds. Do six by 30 seconds. Don't put yourself at a spot that is unsustainable. So again, since I don't know individually, I can't like just program you. But if if this is something very new to you, like make sure you're not pushing yourself too long or too hard too quickly. So why my a lot of my athletes now, they will start at that 12 by 1 minute because I have worked with them for so long, that's where they're at and they're running. Um, so but for the hill part of it, if you're working on hills, do do one uphill. Just just do do the that one workout uphill. Make sure you are catching your breath before you start again. If you uh this is just an extra tip, if you m overdo it, like you've done the interval and you go back down and you're starting to go back down and you're still breathing really hard, um, and all of a sudden your watch goes beep and you're supposed to go up again. Stop your watch, take a minute to catch your breath, because the whole point of the work is to go uphill as hard as you can. So if you're still catching your breath, you're not gonna be able to get that work in. It's also possibly indicative of maybe that workout's a little bit too much for you in that time, so shorten those intervals. So feel free to DM me on that and ask some questions around that one. But treadmill, very similar to that actual like easy run in terms of like the warm-up, do it at like a zero to a two percent. Um, get the legs moving, you know, get them feeling what's like, get them hamstrings and glutes warmed up with a little bit of that incline. And then whenever you get to the actual work, uh put that up to about like a five to eight percent, just depend just depending on where you're at. Like I would start at five if you haven't done done any of those before. If you're a little more experienced, you can up it. But also you can test. That's what's great about treadmills. You can test where you're at and what's what's gonna work best for you so you aren't increasing too quickly. Um, just remember, um, it's gonna take time for you to get better at hills. So don't get mad at yourself and you're like, I'm dying. Like, I'm dying. I just did a 30-second interval, I did a one-minute interval. Are you kidding me? I'm dying. That's the work. Like, that is part of that hard workout. Again, the VO2 Max is not something that's done for weeks and weeks. Typically it's done for three to four weeks. So, and you can increase those each time. So, like, if you start at 30 seconds, the next week do a minute. Typically, you could probably do um, say if you did, I'm just gonna say, if you did 10 by 30 seconds, um, if you need to do it for the same amount of time, you could do five by one minute. That splits it the intervals that makes the intervals longer, splits it in half and gives you the same amount of time though for that workout. If you did 10 by 30 seconds and you're feeling like, hey, I really want to try a minute, but I think I can do more than five, you know, try seven to eight, right? Again, it's very hard to know exactly where you're at and what you can do, but pushing yourself like that and pushing yourself uphill is gonna help you with those uphill easy runs and those uphill runs during races. So um, so that's the VO2 Max. Um, if you would like to like if you're continuing to work on these, I'm gonna throw in just a tempo run one here. That is longer intervals than a VO2 max and a but a lower effort level. So think about effort level seven to eight um when it comes to those tempo runs, and then think about starting at three minute intervals. So let's say we start at five by three minutes, so five intervals at three minutes. You're like, holy shit, that sounds like a lot. It is, and guess what? They get longer and longer as you get more experience. But that's a great spot to start five by three, and then cut your recovery time in half. So three minutes uphill at a tempo pace, effort seven to eight, back downhill, one and a half minutes. Easy, easy jog down, maybe even a walk down. But again, make sure you're fully recovered in between to get the best of that uphill work. Um, again, yeah, if you want to ask me questions, go for it. Any of my athletes listening, I know you've asked for this, so like feel free to reach out with any questions. Uh, but like the workouts do they do build on each other. So if you are really close to a race right now, I would say let's not focus on doing those workouts. But when you're done with it and recovered, this is a great time to like do some harder workouts um for that. And it's VO2 Max and then the tempo runs. So the VO2 max starts building that foundation, and then the tempo runs are after that. So there are more runs than that, but that's where I'm stopping with that piece of it, um, because this episode again would be five hours if I start getting too much into it. Also, know that it's totally awesome to do a hiking session um or a partial hiking session. When I was training for Coca Dona, um, there would be days where we would start me by doing, I would do a 30 to 45 minute hike, and then I would do a 15 to 30 minute run. Sometimes I would do a 30-minute hike and then a 45-minute run. But the hikes were intentional. That's where my coach is like, don't be lollygagging. So I'm staying in the right effort level, but I'm still pushing, pushing those hikes. Um, I preferred doing those hikes on a little bit of a steeper grade if it was available to me at the time. So, um, what do I mean by that? Like, I would say like I I tend to do the hikes if I can between 10 and 15%. Um, there are times where it might be 8%. Um, but like I did try to keep it in there, and then when I got running, I could uh I'd be running up and downhill. Like it wasn't like the run itself was not geared towards the uphill, it was the hike that I was working on. So power hiking is fantastic because we still have to power hike normally in runs. Like there are is not there's not very many times where we're completely running an entire race. So being able to power hike at a sustainable effort and pace is very, very important. So if you want to practice this, depending on where you're at again in your training um with the hike, uh, you could do like I would say anywhere between eight to fifteen percent. I know that is a big range, but I it just depends on who you are. And I would keep that speed if you can, around two and a half to three miles per hour and see how it feels. If you are out of breath, I don't mean breathy, but I mean out of breath where you couldn't talk, you gotta drop either the um incline or uh how fast you have set the pace on the treadmill. So, but this can be done on trail too. All of this, and let me I should have mentioned this earlier too. All of these things, remember, it doesn't have to be a perfect grade. If you guys have been in the mountains or on the trails, it's not like you normally hit an uphill and it's all of its 5% all the way up, right? You'll hit it and it might be two and then five and then 15 and then five and then 15 and then 12 and then 2, right? That's what so we're not looking for something that's gonna be exactly unless you have a spot, which is fantastic, tell me about it. But you are looking to get like in in the grades that you that you need to be in for whatever it is you're working on. So I typically give my athletes, especially as we get race specific, how many, how much vert per mile they should be focusing on. So say it's a hundred feet of vert per mile, that's just um so um, and then also like if if there's a certain grade that they kind of hit in the race, I'm like, hey, if you can find one that's similar, that said, that is way more difficult to do. So a lot of times it's better to focus on getting that vert per mile. But it's also good to know, hey, like I've got a steep climb and a race coming up, and I do need to find a steep hill to practice that on too. So it's all about the consistency and practice, y'all. Do you see what I'm see what I'm getting at here? Consistency practice. Um, so if you do have a coach though, like tell them, like, if it's something you want to work on, even it's not uphill running, make sure you tell them. So um also like doing all of these things, again, these workouts were not the exact thing you should be doing. Make sure you warm up and cool down at a very easy effort. Don't forget that. Um, do some strides at the end. Um, not every single workout, but sometimes do strides at the end. It helps with that running economy and inefficiency. And then do the work in the middle. So warm up, the work, cool down, and sometimes strides. Make sure you find a hill that can actually do the entire um interval that you want to do, if you can, um, or do it on a treadmill. I had to find luckily Renee. Hi Renee, she told me about Desert Rose. Um, and that actually has some sustainable, I think the the longest climb is like six tenths of a mile, and it's it's a good one to do a pretty long interval on. So, and then if you know what you end up running all the way up on an interval and you have to go downhill, sometimes that happens too. It's about the effort, it's about the consistency, it's about doing work, and it doesn't have to be perfect. So, again, if uphill running is a goal and you haven't sold anybody, um, your coach, you haven't told you haven't even admitted it to yourself, like it does change your programming. Um, the route selection, the workout, what a week looks like, all that. So work with it, you know, on your own if you're if you're if you're uh self-training, work with it with your coach. Um, again, set up a consult with me. Why not? I'm I'm open to that. I love chatting about these things. Um just just know that like there is things that you can do to be better at that uphill. Um, and well, I just gave you a whole bunch of them. So but here's what I want you to take from this. Um, every uphill runner you've admired was once someone who probably hiked every uphill and felt their lungs were staging a protest. The difference between them and you is not necessarily the talent. Yes, I know there's genetics in running, y'all. I do know there's things happening, don't there's research happening around it too. But it's also time spent going uphills in an effort that sometimes even felt a little bit too slow to count. Um, so this week, find a hill, stay in the right effort level, and that means probably slowing it down from what you were doing on the downhill or flat, and run it easy. That's it. That's the workout. You are an uphill runner. You're just not where you want to be yet. And yet is the whole point. Alright, thank you so much for being here and spending time with me. Uh, thank you for listening to my voice. I think that dust is like in my nose and lungs at this point. So um appreciate you guys probably listening to me sniffle a little bit. Um, if you love this episode, make sure you download it, follow the show, leave a review, and share it with a friend. It helps this message reach more everyday trail runners like you. Now, go move your body, drink some water, stretch your calves, and if you're listening while running, loosen your shoulders. You're welcome. Good effort, positive attitude.