Why Most Surveyors MISUNDERSTAND AI | The Surveying Shift Ep. 4

Is AI really coming for your job, or is it just misunderstood?

In this episode of The Surveying Shift, Louis Blaxill is joined by Nina Young FCA, CEO of Surveyors UK, to explore how AI is impacting the surveying profession. From client expectations to compliance challenges, Nina breaks down the opportunities and risks of integrating AI into daily workflows. This is a must-listen for any surveyor feeling overwhelmed, curious, or skeptical about the role of artificial intelligence in their future. You’ll walk away with clarity, strategy, and a fresh perspective on what it really means to “work smarter.”

Whether you’re new to digital tools or already experimenting with AI, this episode gives you the real-world context surveyors need right now.

Key Takeaways
• AI is not a replacement for surveyors, but a tool to enhance judgment
• The new AI standards offer essential guardrails but also introduce interpretation risks
• Surveyors are already using AI in report writing, proofreading, and defect detection
• Security and data compliance remain major concerns, especially with generative tools
• Clients are already using AI to interpret reports, surveyors need to get ahead of this
• Interactive, AI-powered reports could improve client understanding and communication
• AI can support consistency and reduce missed details through QA automation
• Skepticism within surveying is often due to misunderstanding, not real risk
• Training and upskilling are essential to close the knowledge gap
• Surveyors must develop both tech awareness and human communication skills

Best Moments

00:02:23. “Everybody's at different stages. And I think the challenge will be surveyors trying to understand the standard.”
00:03:28. “Grammarly is AI, but do you disclose that? That ambiguity could be a compliance burden.”
00:05:24. “There are times to use it, and times not to. Being intentional is key.”
00:06:02. “Professional judgment cannot be replaced by AI, nor should it be.”
00:08:01. “Surveyors are using AI to critique and audit their own reports.”
00:10:18. “AI is now being used to identify defects via computer vision, faster, deeper, tireless.”
00:13:13. “Everyone’s time poor. Clients just want quick answers, what does this mean to me?”
00:17:52. “GoReport users are freeing up time for more human, client-focused conversations.”
00:33:16. “Why not have something that tells you before it goes out, you maybe need to put that in.”

Learn more about GoReport

Stay ahead of industry change, explore digital tools, and hear stories from leaders shaping the future of surveying.

📐 New episodes of The Surveying Shift drop every month.
🎧 Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast app.

• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Facebook

If this episode gave you value, please like, comment, and share it with a colleague.

This podcast has been brought to you by APodcastGeek.

Transcript

0:00

AI doesn't have wisdom, doesn't have that years of experience. And it will always come on to the side. But at the end of the day, and, AI is a tool that can help them get to it faster. It can give more data. But at the end of the day, that data still needs to be interpreted That is Nina Young, CEO of CBS's UK and long time advocate for practical, real world AI. And today she completely reframes the AI conversation to be not as a threat to professional judgment, but as an enabler, but still depends entirely on Savannah's expertise. you for your time. you have, times the calls or having a better customer experience, client experience and interaction, it frees up time to do other things. She believes that the right use of AI create space for what matters most. Better advice, stronger relationships, and more time for surveyors to apply their insight. Where it has the greatest impact. The more you understand AI, the less you fear it. Today we explore how fear around I often disappears once, so that is truly understand how it fits into their workflow. By the end of this conversation, you will learn how I can support professional judgment, improve clients experience, and ultimately help surveyors stay ahead without losing the human side of the profession. I'm Louis Boxall and this is the surveying ship. Oh. It'd be interesting to get your key takeaways and reflections on on the AI standards. from my side, it's great that they have responded to people using AI because I think it's important. It's took a step. I think we both probably agree there is more to be done with this. There are further iterations. I don't think there's anyone that that would debate that. But yeah, I'd be interested to get your your key takeaways in a soundbite where whereas they might need to expand further. is good. And glad it finally it's coming out and I think it's, it gets published fully and all enforced. Is it March? I think it's March 2026. Yes. But I think for me there's been a mixed response to it. But what it's obviously very good for is, you know, it's a standard, it's a framework, it's a guide, it's providing the guardrails and it's it's finally, you know, saying, look, this is important to surveying and I think that was a really good thing. And obviously it's very good for governance and compliance. I do think though, we are in stage now where while surveyors are adopting using, it's starting to take interest in AI. Everybody's at different stages. And I think the standard, the challenge will be with surveyors trying to understand the standard and apply it to their firms, because so many don't understand AI. Some are using it. Some I use it to different degree, somehow adopting the whole business process around it. But I think there are challenges around for example, in the standard there is reference to material impact. So where they have to disclose to a client, where they're using AI that has a material impact. Now there are some sort of rules and frameworks as to what that is, but I think it's open to a lot of interpretation because people will be using some of these use AI in different forms. So for example, Grammarly software used for editing grammar and reports, as I you know, it is that I it is AI but do you disclose that? And and what point is that to be disclosed? I think that for me, ambiguity, misunderstanding around it is going to be one of those things that could be could be a challenge and, maybe a compliance burden as well for especially the smaller firms. Yeah, for documenting that. And it is interesting, you mentioned, you know, there are people out there who are already building their processes around the start. And, and 68 states, you have to not only disclose, it could give you the option or customer the option for you not to use AI, right? Which is, I imagine, going to be a challenge for some who have embraced it with with open arms. almost like time you the bad thing and will even it finds the term is a form of technology and that we're almost giving that personally don't agree with that element of it because I think that's the business how firm is run. I think there are guardrails, policies that need to be written, full transparency. But for me, that, I mean, yeah, I'm not sure how that's going to be adopted. interesting you mentioned, people not knowing how to to think about AI an approach. I think one of the things standards is good for, it's highlighting the key things that you should be thinking about, including disclosure to customers, including data security, which is obviously a big point of contention in the world of AI, and understanding how your data can potentially customize data, and if you're putting that into models is being used and making sure that secure and then also the policies, procedures, governance, not leaving that down to your team, I think, is this really important and being conscious as to when you going to use it as if there are times to use it. There are times not on those processes and particularly around QA, which will come down to when it is appropriate to use it. But being intentional, being conscious, being prescriptive to your firm, I think is a message that comes through. I think it's important that people need to stop it, because when you think about it's also around, the level of or single checking or reviews that you do with your, say, say, like a software provider or a product that you use, making sure that you understand what they are doing with the data. And what's the security under within that. And I think sometimes a lot will take it for granted or that secure. we all know that some surveys are using ChatGPT, know, with the reports and it's like, but it doesn't have the security levels. Are they using the enterprise level, you know, and these kind of things. And there a big risk? Absolutely, absolutely. think that the vital thing that that comes across and this should be given. Right? I don't think there's necessarily need to be stated, but ultimately the surveyors are responsible for the advice they're giving. Right? And professional judgment cannot be replaced by AI, nor should it be at any point in the process. That has to be that. So there is professional judgment overlaid and integrated with, the output for the customer. absolutely, it's, it's a tool. It's an enabler. You know what talks about being augmented. You work with it. it doesn't have the final say. It doesn't have the neurons, the all the full context. it doesn't have the wisdom. AI doesn't have wisdom, doesn't have that years of experience. And it will always come on to the side. But at the end of the day, and, they're responsible for providing their opinion and their report, and AI is a tool that can help them get to it faster. It can give more data. But at the end of the day, that data still needs to be interpreted and recommendation advice given and absolutely provided. I think that word context and understanding, the situational understanding what's trying to be achieved to the customer. And it's helpful from, the literal as well, because, before we we touched was let us down a abrasive talking about some, some of the potential challenges with AI. Before we jump to that, let's, let's talk about how you've seen AI be used in today. So let's situated in terms of people using AI effectively in a market moment, but then also kind of talk about a potential future where where would you like to start terms of what you've seen? Usually I think I've seen it so many different areas. I think if we're looking at areas such as residential surveying, I think one of the most common areas that is it is being used for is within report writing, it's one of the least favorite aspects of being the rest of society because they want to be out and about looking, you know, doing what they did and find the defects. Follow the trail. And the report writing can be the most challenging time. And it's very time consuming as well, and I think I see whether it's surveys like using it to critique their own reports. So they're using it to audit their own reports, which I think is a really good idea. Obviously, you've got to be careful what you put it into the models that you're particularly using and they can, you know, get feedback. They can feed in standards, they have standards and things and they can say, look, how am I doing? What's the quality of data from different perspectives, even from a client's perspective? but also the report writing itself. So they're putting in a rough draft and then using it, but everyone's using it at different stages and they're all using different models. And the concern is obviously the security, other areas which I've seen an increase considerably in is computer vision. So using you've got your tech, you've got drones. Drones have been out a number of years now and it's it's kind of well adopted. The costs of betting, although it took a long time to come through like most tech week surveying. And now we've got the computer vision. So we've taken literally capturing a room for example, thousands, thousands of data points and images. And now the AI, what the AI has been used for increasingly is to be able to interpret that data and identify actual defects. Because one thing I think that it's always said is like, well, I can't understand a building like me. I've got this experience, I know what I'm looking for. But like with anything, AI doesn't get tired. It doesn't get hungry, it doesn't have bad eyesight. And if it's training, when you've got thousands of data points, immediately it can and it will spot things that potentially surveyor won't see. Yeah. And it's not to be relied on. And I think that's what's happening. So it's great. And I think it's been used to sort of look at things and say, okay, the surveyor already has views on what that roof defects are, for example. But then you use the data as well. And the AI is going well, actually there's this it can be it can find things that you haven't identified, but it can also be used up front for predictive sales. And so, data over a period of time, it can capture that data. It can look at well has that we've deteriorated over the last five years. I think things are like that, like maintenance for like housing condition stock and things like that. You know, we've got this leaking, leaking gutter. But we predict this is going to happen. So it's a proactive solution. It's been used for that as well. Yeah. So this is I mean it's looking at it. But they used to go across the board. Right. And it's interesting if I take you back to the cognitive report right. And side of things, I think you're absolutely spot on in terms of people using it more to analyze their own ports and prefer their own tools. That's the way we're looking at it from a global perspective, because completely obviously we've had customers, both commercial approach to actually coming back to them and saying, and I'll come on to why they realize actually they're putting too much activity, but putting their report into some kind of AI model and saying, interpret this for me, understand some of the routing so inconsistencies and come back with questions that you might want to ask as a follow on. So the survey I'm getting ahead of that is absolutely it's moving them to go into secure model. And you touched on it. I think it's really important that people are cautious about where they end up putting particularly, data that that might be sensitive to a specific customer, but it's important they get ahead of that and they understand how the customer might be viewing their reports on them. And onto. Yeah. And I think it's really powerful because what you can do is, one of the, the big challenges can be with the style of the report, you know, that there's very much, you know, some, some reports are just 500 pages long, loads of text, and people are reading it, you know, and I think the there is there are clients that are putting reports into like a chat chip, e.g. because they want a summary. But why not do that beforehand? It's a really interesting one when you mention that, because it's a conversation I have with a number of suppliers who understandably don't feel like they can even acknowledge that people are doing right, because from their professional perspective, they want to make sure that everything they could be it for. And they want to visit a world in which a customer is reading it from start to finish. You know, they know that's realistically not the case in a number of businesses. But yeah, it's an interesting moral dilemma for us, though, I suppose, to get to kind of always succumb to that pressure is what it can do that will do that. And actually it's better to get ahead of it, better to control it, but just understand what they're saying and, and perhaps building some kind of compromise. That means that they don't jump straight to ChatGPT and go, give me a two sentence overview of what what I need to know from this report and start it, I suppose back in to also try to look, but it's not something I've heard people come to the conclusion for. But it's an interesting trend. It is difficult because it's not. It's not about undermining the professional or the, the, the expertise. But as we know, we're in a world where we are just bombarded with information, everyone's time poor. literally overload of information everywhere you are learning and everything. And I think people just want quick, like, what does this mean to me? Very fast. Whereas you do want the comprehensive information behind it, but it's how do you then sort of repurpose a report in a way that then, should the client wish to want a summary, they could have it, but it's just yeah, I think it's tailoring it. I think it's becoming customization and personalization to the particular client could be an amazing thing I think. Yeah, think it also can look kind of larger I suppose. More data rich. I want to say data rich. I mean data point, the post kind of process you would get in a residential survey. There's an interesting world in which I can start to generate insights for you that you wouldn't necessarily have seen before, unless you're specifically looking for the right. You know, the conditions are right with thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of data points to be able to apply something that can take structured or unstructured data and then turn it into insights is something we're really excited about, but something that that could be hugely powerful for, for customers as well, particularly if they are given the option to interrogate that data. It's like specific questions that they want to ask, and they will spend a certain, yeah. So I think well, good example of that, that I've seen, I've been speaking with companies called legal Eto, so they're in conveyancing and they literally are building whereby they have for example, someone has a question with a conveyancer about a lease something. And one of the examples was, can I keep a parrot in this flat? And it was a very random thing, and literally so instead of getting to the conveyancer and then maybe then having to review the file, get back to you, they can literally access the board and they will ask that question as the client. They don't even and this is an amazing technology and it's, it's you know, I ist and it's a good example of how the ability to interrogate and provide a better client experience. And yeah, do you think that merits it? Again, I don't have an answer this. How do you think it varies with the surveyors? The important element of surveyors providing information in such a way that one is factually correct. It two gives the advice to the customer. How do you think Spurs will react to or embrace the notion that something else will interpret and, ultimately provide information through a lens that they don't actually have a lot of control over? I think that's it comes down to the controls. So I think the needs to be in the future where clients are going to put their reports into these models, whether you like it or not. So why are they doing that in the first place? Well, they want answers to things. If they have an option whereby you've provided this report and they could actually based on that report and just that report, so it doesn't go out. It's not like a check to see where you can. It's not you know, this does it's going to go out to the world. And they can get answers. It's still from the, qualified opinion. Expert opinion if they used in particular at all control through the surveyor. I don't know how these interactive reports could work, but if they're asking me, it's only on that report, then that is their expertise. It's just an ability for them to ask a question rather than maybe have to send an email or pick up the phone. There'd be certain things they could answer and the surveyor could even ask that within. I don't know, I'm just thinking, you know, future, future things that could be really helpful. I understand where you're going from with the expertise, because I think there is this as a threat because it's it's not replacing the expertise and the insight and the context and the years of experience knowing a particular local region, for example, don't think that's ever going to be replaced. It's specific. And it's it's almost like we talked about earlier, like easily accessing sections of the report. They feel like they they need to be able to interrogate quickly. And as you said, I think it's really important. There's models only then pointed at that specific, report and they're able to navigate it in a way that, that we've become accustomed to, to use asking specific questions. I think I perspective the provenance of the section of the report's really important as well, to be able to give it an answer and say that's been pulled from this section, this section and this section really quickly so you can see the full context will be will be really important. But it's an exciting avenue as well. we've talked about kind of the report writing side of things. I think one of really interesting conversation, actually, I had with James Brook, was around his ambition for AI and how he wanted to use it, enabling his team to provide a better, more human service as well as something that's quite often missed. Right. You talked about people not enjoying the notion of spending lots of time market reports. Typically what suppose want to be doing is being rolled road speaking to customers, advising customers. There is an enormous upside, which means that you can provide more, more of a human, connection, I suppose, and more feedback to your customer if you save time. Not fettling with reports and changing grammar and changing spelling because at the end of the day, that's probably one of the most disliked part of the job, I think was for a lot of surveyors in the report writing, you know, and I thank you for your time. You can, like you say you have, the more more times the calls or having a better customer experience, client experience and interaction, it frees up time to do other things. I guess the other thing is, on a lot of things that I read across, generally and businesses, and is that the idea is that it frees up time, but then you end up doing other things that won't necessarily free up your time. You want to do more. So some surveys, for example, may want to do more surveys. You know, some comics improve that client experience. And I think it also opens up the door for lots of other things. But work. So there are different things you can do with that, I think. But it's important that having learned early days few years back using AI, getting crazy, tried so many tools it took more of my time than anything else, and I had to like, okay, you know, you can get carried away with it. So I'd say that's, that's something to be aware of with, with AI generally. think, again, talking to a kind of service provider perspective, that's where I see our job. kind of distill that because we talked about it before. John Thomas, the You know, I had been around for a long time. People have misunderstood it. And quite often people would say, I will get to that, and I'd be able to do it really comprehensively. There's there's almost two traps that are falling into there. One is people still great AI the answer to everything. It doesn't really specialize. And then anything specific also surveillance and solve specific problems for them to if it doesn't get them far enough along that journey, then it can be time consuming in and of itself, right? If it does 50% job, then you spend another ten 15 minutes, then messing around with it, changing it, everything else you've made from scratch or whatever the alternative works. So I think for a tech provider perspective, what we're focusing on is looking at specific use cases and making sure we make them good enough so that they are usable. And they are useful for surveys, because I can do so much and kind of touched on a range of different things that will continue to talk about it. But I think it's really important now that people are focused on how can we make something really useful. So that we don't have to stray? Who? also like from a, rate of development, I know it's been around for a long time, but in modern times people will have seen the, the acceleration and the speed with which is that it's, it's oh. So I think a key takeaway from this from my perspective is, you know, if you saw an AI solution, I'm not going to say yesterday, but certainly if you saw it six months ago, well have materially moved on and people saying it's not good enough and couldn't do this, the rate of change from all sides, but the problems that we're developing as well, thanks to the platform there are it's just it's so impressive how quickly it's moving forward, which is releasing something every week. All the models and they're all racing against each other to get to the forefront of it. And so you'll you'll see something like video generation. I remember something on LinkedIn and that was a year ago. And, you know, everyone was jumping on it, saying, now it's rubbish, this kind of thing that's like. And then literally, you know, when you look at video generation this year, like with the recent release of Sara from OpenAI, it's just incredibly calm as not to distinguish between what is real and what isn't. What's AI generated video now? And I think it feeds into surveying and the tech and the the sophistication of these models is just going to increase. It'll just get better. And but I think it's difficult I think surveys, and everybody and myself, I struggle to keep up with that. I read follow, you know, scientists papers, podcasts all the time because I'm personally very interested in it. And I just, you know, there's just so much you think you, you know, something, you know, something else would come out some from your perspective and go report it's it's it's tough and any, any kind of software business we put with it because they bring out something else and something else is all right. enormously exciting to us. I think it means that we have to really stay cutting edge and think about how how much. But you're right, it's difficult, said time, because the latest thing to bring up and the latest iteration of the model might change the way that we we think about the way we develop features. So, yeah. It's it's a really exciting fast by 12. And, and again, I get that take away from like my side. We come back, we'll circle back to this. But it's if you haven't already you got to engage with it because it is can have a fundamental impact on the industry, whether when you think it's a force for good or not, you need to be aware of you need to be consciously making a decision to use it or not use it. not certainly slowing down. And if you don't use it, your clients are. But there's other things that, you know, I was saying earlier this year, last year, which is around how AI is, is, is affecting like a surveying firm business from different areas. So the way that surveying funds are getting found. So you know, typically everything was through Google. And now Google have released their own AI summaries in Google search results. So they're not answering questions like, do I need a level two survey and go to your website? Google's providing an answer there. So search and discoverability for surveying firms has been has been impacted. And that is just the increase. People are now using their AI tools like a ChatGPT or a Gemini perplexity to say I need to survey here, find some surveyors. So it affects around the business, and your clients and everything else externally. So even if you choose, you don't like it or don't want to adopt it, you still need to understand it and have policies in place because your clients will ask, you know, you need to be found discoverable. All these kind of things are important because it's become pervasive in everything, everything we are doing in society. AI is just gradually coming out and everything, all our devices are software. Whether we are not WhatsApp and, you know, things like that. touched on I will say that and I think it is worth seeing over separate this that the bright up. But the natural language side of things and this the complete, computer vision. So I think which obviously is going to have an impact on today basically, as we talked about the models getting better and better image recognition, AI, some recognition issues, recognition being that that much greater. How do you see creators using that today? And how do you see that kind of evolving the way my, my mind is, is progressing shortcut future? I think in the main, I think from my understanding and talking with others in this space, I think computer vision is not fully there yet, as in we can, I think around the other areas of AI such as text, you know, the way ahead with the language models, but a computer vision, I don't think we are fully yet at the stage where you can literally take all these views. You know, a video of a house and it'll identify all the defects. I don't think about that quite yet. However, it's improving all the time, and it's all based upon the data that it's trained upon as well. So how would it know how to interpret? Is that damp or not? Because there's loads of data points it needs and, and and comparisons and training data. So I've seen some surveys talk about it. I've seen some software solutions pop up, which I think one of them was, was for people that are wanting to better do their own little mini survey on a house, some of the software, but it's very basic. worry because these kind of solutions that I've come out who has a liability on that, if someone does their own survey, like walks around the property they want to buy, what happens rapidly? Okay. So they found out about the issues, but there's no there's no protection. There's not like you. Yeah. Expertise. And I think that's the big thing where you have to have surveyors involved future wise. I think these things will evolve. I think they will become better. I think they will become some big players potentially that will evolve because it's if you can provide something that helps, that helps the surveyor as opposed to so they can use it as a another area. It's like an extra sort of extension of you've got your photographs, but if you're using also video and then check that data back and you've got your own observations, you use it as the tool to assist you. Then to report something even better. I think there's still challenges with the data, but that's I'm not very technical, but that's my understanding. It's it's not there. Yeah I think we've we've hit the nail on the head in terms of it needs to be paired with an expert. I think, again, comes back to that professional judgment. I think there's an enormous amount of value in terms of the low hanging fruit, in terms of identifying what things are. Perhaps if it's in a great condition, combine combining a photo of a motif with a voice element from a style from Spain. So actually I've looked at that all fine. I just described the the roof and describe the characteristics of that lack of risk and how long. I'll still kind of say that that's even worse if I don't think, as you said, it's in a position where, particularly using video, and kind of an unstructured scan of a house, it will be able to zoom in on everything and go, yeah, here's the text. And also there's always but no matter how good it gets going to be, the okay, I need to further investigate. I need to move this item to go into this. In a little bit more detail. I need to test this to whatever it may be. This is always going to be required to do that. I think we're at a stage or starting to be at a stage now where it can complement the surveyor and again, literally aim to take some of that laborious work away, which is just maybe, you know, when something is a condition and there isn't any additional value or additional, context as we go off. And so just getting that done quickly so they can focus on the things that matter. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to come back to the things I can't do and think about your senses. So the I mean maybe one day, but it's not going to hear necessarily the creaky floorboard. It's not going to know. But knowing looking looking at a room, hang on. That wardrobe looks like it's been moved. Cover a don't touch a corner because she's sensed from the vendor something, you know, something have said, you know, this kind of thing, but you can just tell by looking down the room, and it's not going to smell that paint or not damp paint that someone's used to try and paint over a damp patch, which visually might look okay, but you can smell the fresh meat in the room you like. Why is this thing, isn't it? It's all these sensors and things that I think where unless all the data and everything is in an AI model, can't be fully relied on that it's not nuance is that context. It's, senses when you think, oh, someone's being really evasive or avoidance, you know, they're trying to hide things. Are you someone said something about next door neighbor that there's all these things that it won't know It's an interesting one. So I completely agree with you. On the residential side of things, I think it's and for what it's worth, like a report we, we've been thinking about, as you know, that preschool friend, the assistant to the surveyor, you mentioned it earlier. I think it has a role to play in the residential space to almost QA reports and get it to a point where it starts to, nudge it. And I say, look, have you thought about this? And I've noticed this and that it might be wrong, but just having that second opinion is quite useful. I think, in the commercial world. Interestingly, when it comes to things like simple asset capture surveys and also to degree simple conditions, so that is that's where, you know, the population of data. I think that the technology is that now particularly with a bit of training, for those with data to kind of compare it to, I think that's where there is an exciting option, again, to remove that kind of laborious administrative task. API and I need to just show you, need to basically type in or tap a load of buttons to say, this is a monitor. You know, that that's where it all has enormous potential to enable surveyors to, again, free up their time to talk about, addition of things that really matter to their customers. think we touched on it in various guises that the big opportunities. But luckily, and kind of making sure that you're providing a best quality product to your customer, you talks about people having a bad day or missing things. Do you I, I not having never having a day off the ability for it to proofread check challenge is enormously often should be enforced because if the surveyor uses their professional judgment and says, look, I don't need to, change or that need to acknowledge that challenge because I know that what I've put there, it's right, then they can kind of, I suppose, sift through the feedback, can only cherry pick the ones that they think will make it more accurate or better for the customer. I think it's an exceptional opportunity. One of the one of the things I always, always astounded many coming into so many years ago was, you know, background wise, early careers. I was an auditor. And so I was like, well, how do the quality of reports get checked? No. Is anyone auditing them? And they're not regularly audited, really, unless certain firms have procedures set up in the in their, swap their practice. And so for me this and I can understand this costs and indications of it. But if you can literally have tool that's going to audit against compliance for example your standards, it can check against things like your building regulations, all these things it can do. it's like an assistant to you. It can go. Right. Well you you didn't see that. You didn't spot that all you spotted that it maybe that particular defect. Have you report on that in the risk section. What the implication was that and it it would be able to link things together and it can do that in a matter of seconds. Whereas it's not saying but it, it will replace surveyor. But that whole thought process and you still need reflective thought on all that. But it is literally just going to help to give that some sense check and, you know, in a comfortable way why not have something and it can tell you if there's something before it goes out, we maybe need to put that in one to give an even better report. you mentioned it there. That's the thing. The as well as makes it with the features we're building the most is but you know yeah I preference that it would appear in the risk section or I said that, you know high risk and then forgot to do I drop it into that section that just that simple things that people might forget that not undermine the quality of the report because fundamentally they don't just slip little things that you can easily pick up with things like proofreading tools, make it make a big difference. So we talked a lot about the positive side of AI. And that's also I talked about its toolbox is we've been having the conversation. What what do you think the main blockers are for AI in surveying. And what do you think the things people should be cautious of when they do start to think about adopting, their own AI models? stepping back a bit, I think, with regard to that whole question, I think we're in, a profession that and it comes with the with, with the role, is surveyors are very skeptical. they've got a questioning mindset vote though us and I've seen this over the years having seen how drone technology was received about six, seven years ago and how it took so much time to realize that this was a tool and it wasn't here to replace. And so there's a lot of protectionism around the role. And I think the with regards to things like a simple thing like not easily, having an iPad instead of a clipboard out and signing. And I seen these traits play out for years now and I think so one of the difficulties, I think, of the considerations with AI in surveying is that you're up against something already, in the sense of it's a profession that's very resistant to change and new tech. The only thing that can threaten the role itself is seen as a threat to the personal profession expertise. And it needs to get that needs to be won over. And I think gradually that's happening when, for example, you got the ICC a standard that helps realize this, this is an apple that just buys it, right? Yeah. And I think it's keeping an open mind. And I think it's understanding a lot of what I see in the commentary I've heard is because of misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge around AI, and I someone mentions to it, mentioned it to you down the pub, for example. Yeah. And yeah, but it's like you need to understand it and try to learn it yourself. But factual. Don't just rely on social media. Literally read about it, learn about it, read this and it and come from it from a factual point of view and a questioning point of view, because I think we need to encourage survey surveyors to start to understand it more. And then, as I understand it, there's less fear. I've been in situations where I've spoken to buyers and not realizing I'm all enthusiastic about what you can do. And then I'll literally be in the house now, they're all saying, this is really scary. And there's so much fear. There's so much fear about AI at the moment because it's everywhere the media is affecting, not just surveying. Profession is affecting the legal profession. It's definitely affecting the accountancy profession. And so this is a threat. So that is why it's interesting. You mentioned the legal profession that we touched on earlier. From my experience and people that I know that are operating in the tech space, because there has been wider acceptance of AI. And I think people have adopted it more willingly in that space, in a space obviously, where, it's very important words, right? You make sure that your what you hand into the customer is absolutely spot on. What do you think that is versus how do you think it is that skepticism that, prevents us from jumping into things to visit? I think some of it's that but then I'm wondering, I see a lot more happening within the legal space as both professionals in legal, online, for example, in social media talking about AI. There seems to be a lot more vocal voices and legal financial as opposed to surveying on the social media side of things like LinkedIn. And I think that does affect how people perceive something. So, things always, you know, when you look within surveying profit profession, there are a lot of vocal people. I talk about it and talk about AI, and if you don't, and it's the same across many subjects, just surveys are very reluctant to be on social media. That is like without a doubt, and I'm always encouraging it. But there is a vague reluctance. So I think in general, a lot of people will go to social media to learn and understand what's happening and the surveys that you're about to. well, talking about it in a positive light. Well, I think what you're saying often is financial. They are. You have big voices that are like saying, you need to listen to this. You know, there's a lot of effort behind it to say, don't be scared about this. But I think it's quite, quite a I don't know if that's really one of the reasons, but what I've seen is an interesting one, and I think the legal space serves as a, you know, what can be achieved and how how people can embrace it. What is a very tightly controlled, space. So yeah, it's it's an interesting one, to watch as a comparison, but I think one of the, the other reasons that perhaps people haven't adopted it is you, you kind of references the conversation down the pub. Right. And it's the I typed this into ChatGPT. It came back with something on set. We type conversation where I think again, from my perspective, people aren't using the tools or the tools aren't specific enough to the world today to be of use. So really kind of honing in on what it is that that it's going and how it's going to benefit. If it's about specifically building tools that specific to surveyors fits, okay. If you don't put it right, comes in and it's not for whatever reason configured it, it can sometimes hallucinate, which is really dangerous, obviously, in the surveying space. Or it can come up with a slightly incorrect answer. I think that's that's common challenge because ChatGPT came out to the word the first one. November 2022 with this amazing technology, free to the world allows you to divide access to as it was rolled out, but there was no training manual. And so in something so powerful and everyone's just up to fend for themselves, to find out, to work out what it means. And where do you go to for this? And I one of the things that I really want to help tackle, and that's one of the reasons why in a communities will have an AI and tech group discussion group is to facilitate these conversations, because I think, where do you go to learn what it means for surveying and also where the training? I do understand there is some training through the RCS, but I think we need more of that. I think we need more training relevant to different types of surveying. I think we need more people to talk about it. And and that's what I want to help facilitate. But training and understanding and this is very typical across all the professions is lacking is way behind adoption. Way behind. Yeah. So people like what try to work it out themselves. But we need more structured training and right. What does this actually mean and what is happening out there and what it experiences. And then I think I think the training and support around it is it is a big is a big issue and it's part of the problem. completely agree. I think we come across three times people, some who are using AI perhaps incorrectly and is skeptical. As a result, some of who are just blissfully unaware of its capabilities in cities. You kind of. So what if you saw that in some of these sort of outlets, this picture, then they get a critical down sight of the incredible that type. So yeah, that understanding piece is really important. And then on the understanding as far as turning the lens to specifically surveying expertise, I see AI is both a exciting opportunity, but also genuinely quite a, concern to a degree for young students coming through, I think, at the education system more broadly is undergoing a revolution by essentially a lecturer. And she's more like the trouble troubles with the writing is with AI, without even thinking about all that kind of thing. On the one hand, there's that. And then I think that is a real concern, and that's something that I don't like to have to think very carefully about. I've seen educational institutions have to think about, but hopefully there is also an opportunity in terms of we touched on earlier, easier access to information about, specific questions and get credit boxes and not even not be aware that standards are out there and exist or, just not be able to find them at the at the right time. It's yeah, it will be interesting to see how that side of things plays out. I have big concerns and one of them is around education. And you look at the how this is playing out globally and you have universities, the some of them already in the US who have been who are ahead and I don't and, and you know, even last year they were literally rolling it out. So all all literally all the subjects at one particular university, I can't remember which one it was going to be. I adopted so that because I think that's the big concern, is our big education systems, not having to understand and deal with, having devices. But the point is, I think the way we learn is impacting how we learn. I think if you rely on them, that's the big danger of cognitive decline, relying on these tools. And that's something I do warn against. But I think also, like you said, the opportunities coming through for new surveys is how it's going to impact their roles. Because, for example, going back to legal, we know for a fact that the stats that are coming out now where there is a threat to entry level legal assistants because they're just being replaced with AI. And so that whole generation of where you learn, you go to university, you come out. Yeah, I mean, so much Europe. And then what the worry is and this is, you know, I haven't really delved into this in surveying. I don't know if you have, but how is going to impact some, you know, trainee surveyors because they believe they will have a future like, you know, again, shining a lens on the commercial world. You know, typically there is a hierarchy in which young global genius that is going out and doing the data collection. And in doing so, they're familiarizing themselves with typical issues of race defects, like, I think, you know, if you can do that that much more quickly, this is in direct contradiction to, to, I suppose, what Gary tries to facilitate. But there is something to be said for that repetition and that, I suppose, those slightly more mundane tasks in terms of building the bank of knowledge and building a banking experience and having that lived experience to draw on which it is a concern from a I adoption perspective. It's a big concern. Yeah, job loss and all these perceptions and the overreliance on, on AI. I think just using it as, as, as we know just to create content and it's just loading flooding the internet. Now The flip side to that I suppose, is people, as you said, who are in educational institutions will become my AI natives, right? And they will get to the point where they don't expect to do simple jobs that could be automated using AI, and then there'll be a disparity in terms of expectation, I suppose when it comes online, it's so there's no it was a really tight kind of tightrope to walk, in terms of making sure that we value to the young so that it's a disservice. I think the thing is, with something that's just been rolled out and is just adopted globally and extremely low cost, this tech and how fast it's evolving is that our particular institutions, our legal systems, our education systems, they are not set up to move. And there's that lot and this thing. So students are using it, clients are using it, everyone's using it. And yet all the guardrails, the controls, security, how policies, everything it's not there and it's so lagging behind. And when you look at the you know the the as the A standard, I think that needs to come out to me, you know, a year or two earlier because everyone was about to get really concerned because that's just how long that standard normally takes. And it's time that I'll have to change those standards will have to be updated because I think as we we know it will change by next year. It's going to be different again, outdated right now. Yeah, absolutely. And it's a it's not a problem unless you need to be know our industry is you said it's cost for people trying to keep up. It's it's challenging and well that's changing so quickly. on that note, and so is final topic I wanted to cover was how do you think the role of the surveyors, it's changing as a result of, and what what skills do you think they might need to think about, I suppose bolstering or learning or picking up as a result of the the increased prevalence of AI. I think with AI comes the ability to analyze and interpret significant amount of data. And I think you can have more and more data, but you'll still need that wisdom and that insight from the surveyor to interpret it. I think the ER will enable the surveyor to get access to assimilate a lot more information faster. I get answers quicker, but I think the role of the surveyor will be a will be understanding that power and how to harness because you know you reports are only as good as the data and your insights and your interpretation. But understanding data analysis, capture, making sure what you're using is reliable. I think being able to, relay to your client, the public about your understanding about the need to understand it because people are using it, the people will ask questions and this will just increase. You know, how you can get across, even on your own website. You know, how you going to basically position yourselves. And then I a world where people it will be you know, a lot of people. There was one particular thing I'll mention there was, I don't know the space name, but there was a surveyor who basically said their business model in residential will be focused on serving those clients who don't like AI. And I think that's an interesting one because that time signatures. Yeah. Because then that won't last is like when the internet came out, everybody thought it was evil and it was, you know, and some people thought it was, you know, all the typical things, all the things that were said about the internet. People say that I and so surveyors would need to become, much more aware of how it will impact them from not just a business perspective reporting, but also societal, because in fact, lots of other things around them and how that you adapt to that. So I think keeping up to date, I think more, more of, the human element of everything I, I learn about at the moment, reading everything's human first, everything you see now we keep saying human, this human that. We're not going to say that because there was never another intelligence. strange. Because it's just become a thing. Human first. Everywhere. And I think anything like where I was given that value and that interpretation. Go carry on to. No, no. Sorry, sorry. It's something that is interesting. I think because we've we've received more data and more information on that. But I think that emphasized on human interaction and someone digesting it for you, putting in so that your context has become that much of a world in which, you know, the report, the data that you got out of the survey used to be the kind of end goal. Now that can be done more quickly and more efficiently or in greater detail, it becomes more important that the surveyor is able to to convey and the important bit and help them understand the report. I think did the combining. But yeah, I think the conveying that and things that I, I've told some surveyors who say how important when number one, number one things in surveying is, is communication and how you communicate with clients and that can be done through reports. But I think using AI to free up certain things so you can focus on having the conversations, getting more on the phone because I think people more and more, though, there will be a shift to where people will want genuine conversations. Not AI, chat bots, not AI assistants and empathy and all those qualities of understanding. What does it mean for them that they are part of that report? What does it mean to that? You know, what actually does it mean in that in their world and being able to be more of it, I think being more of a storyteller, I think there's something to be said about that. And meeting people are they are well, that's not necessarily a specific skill, but I think it becomes more important a person. Yeah, they as I becomes more perfect steadily. I'm going to be very unfair and ask you to almost summarize the conversation. If there were kind of three key takeaways that, you asked to take from our conversation and increasing prevalence of AI for one of the key bits of advice you would give them, I think first and foremost is to keep an open mind and look at AI. It can be scary. People are worried that it's going to replace the jobs. I don't think in surveying that will be the case. I think things are going to change. But I think keep an open mind. Healthy skepticism is fine, but don't worry. Head in the sand with this because it's gonna it's impacting everything. Whether you like it or not. And if you want to stay ahead, you need to keep up to date. The other thing is, you know, learn and read about it. But don't just read what you see on social media. Follow experts follow assigned to follow experts. These are risks, for example. But with anything you know, understand that it's a lot of things that are happening now is because of fear, is because of an unknown. The more you understand AI, the less you fear it. I don't fear it because I, I you know, I learned so much about it when I first read that book. I was three and a half years ago. I was, I, I was really it was a moment can even still imagine. We sat out in the garden. Hum. Something really bad is coming. And then I know, and I read and I read. I was like, oh, but then when other people started to notice this thing, it comes in. I think also, I think there are the very questioning when you are looking to adopt anything for your business with AI. So, you know, look at the credentials, look at the security standards, the controls around it. Because AI is being stamped on everything. I was at Proptech event last year and I couldn't believe how many stars I this I to actually use it. Yes. I'm not used to. Is it supposed to. Oh who is that? And really, what is that AI? And if you understand what AI is and what it's capable of, then you're more informed when you're making decisions such as software such as like because people are under there's less fear. And then, you know, we you know, I think people are convinced that the best should not be not understanding. You know, there's many things I could say. But yeah, I think learned read about it, but follow experts and question it and don't just take verbatim what it says that when surveyors are use it for their own purposes, like like the GPT two is, you know, don't let it, don't rely on it, but use it. absolutely. Well, thank you very much for joining us on this edition. The podcast is really interesting conversation. I appreciate a lot.